McCain Launches Assault on Your Gun Rights!! [Archive]

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The_RANDy_Corporation

12-03-2001, 03:36 PM

McCAIN ANNOUNCES ANTI-GUN SHOW
CAMPAIGN WILL BE REVIVED IN JANUARY
On Tuesday, U.S. Senator John McCain (R-Ariz.) told USA TODAY that he will launch an aggressive campaign to promote S. 890 -- the legislation he authored with U.S. Senator Joe Lieberman (D- Conn.) that would effectively end traditional American gun shows -- as soon as the U.S. Senate convenes in January for the second session of the 107th Congress. In an effort to help move his stalled legislation, McCain has embraced the anti-gun organization Americans for Gun Safety (AGS) and the gun-ban lobby formerly known as HCI, as well as the shameless strategy these groups have adopted of exploiting our nation`s legitimate fears over terrorism in the wake of the attacks of September 11.

Even more troubling, perhaps, is the fact that Senator McCain is also parroting the AGS/HCI myth that "terrorists" use gun shows to pose a threat to national security. McCain told USA TODAY: "Clearly, alleged members of terrorist organizations have been able to secure guns and weapons using the gun show loophole," a bogus claim AGS began making within days of the terrorist attacks. NRA-ILA Executive Director James Jay Baker accused McCain, AGS, and others who attempt to link terrorist acts to legal gun shows of "trying to bootstrap on the Sept. 11 tragedy," and told USA TODAY, "None of the terrorism we saw visited on this country on September 11 had anything to do with firearms." (For the truth regarding the "terrorists at gun shows" myth espoused by McCain, AGS, et al., see NRA-ILA`s FAX Alerts Vol. 8, Nos. 39 & 46.)

It should not be too surprising to find Senator McCain reading from an AGS-supplied script, however, as the Arizona lawmaker and the anti-gun organization have schemed to promote attacks on gun shows for more than a year. AGS -- founded and funded by billionaire and former HCI Board Member Andrew McKelvey -- has committed to spend at least $1 million to promote McCain`s legislation. So much for McCain`s "opposition" to well-funded special interest groups, which has been the rhetorical crux of his efforts to pass campaign finance "reform" legislation.

Besides Lieberman, McCain is also working to promote S. 890 with the Senate`s most vocal anti-gun member, Chuck Schumer (D-N.Y.), and he has also recruited the help of Senator Mike DeWine (R-Ohio), a senator whose voting record on firearm legislation has been quite mixed. McCain, likely realizing he does not have enough support to pass his bill through Congress on its own, sent a letter to fellow Senate Republicans that informed them of his intent to attach his bill to another piece of legislation as soon as possible. The probable vehicle, as USA TODAY suggests, will be a "homeland security measure."

U.S. Senator Jack Reed (D-R.I.), who has been promoting his own attack on gun shows -- S. 767, the reincarnation of the Lautenberg Gun Show bill from the 106th Congress -- apparently feels challenged by McCain`s attempt to grab the anti-gun show media spotlight. He responded to McCain`s announcement with his own, stating on the floor of the U.S. Senate, today, that he would also begin promoting his bill to end gun shows as soon as the Senate convenes in January.

NRA members and the rest of the pro-gun community must contact their federal lawmakers to object to the passage of any legislation that would end gun shows as we know them today. Remind your elected officials that the tools of terrorism used against America have been box cutters, airplanes, and biological weapons, and the war on terrorism will not be won by attacking the rights of American citizens. Existing laws that target the illegal purchase of firearms have proven to be effective in catching the suspected terrorists mentioned in the cases cited by McCain, AGS, and others, so no new laws that target legal gun shows are necessary. You can reach your U.S. Representative at (202) 225-3121, and your U.S. Senators at (202) 224-3121. You can also find additional contact information by using the "Write Your Reps" tool at www.NRAILA.org. (http://www.NRAILA.org.)

NRA-ILA Fax Alert: 11-30-01 in Gun Newz! (http://208.185.249.64/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum&f=11&SUBMIT=Go)

Also in that article read about:

<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>Wacko gun grabber group issues "study" that backfires and actually supports NRA position

<LI>CPAC 2002

<LI>Yet another NRA-backed candidate wins in the House

<LI>What's going on in your State[/list]

Be ready when they come to take your guns.

**DONOTDELETE**

12-03-2001, 04:13 PM

I'm really not surprised. It's obvious the Honoi Hilton has over taken him.
I just hope the good citizens of Arizona will elect someone else in the primarys.

**DONOTDELETE**

12-03-2001, 04:39 PM

Besides Lieberman, McCain is also working to promote S. 890 with the Senate`s most vocal anti-gun member, Chuck Schumer (D-N.Y.), and he has also recruited the help of Senator Mike DeWine (R-Ohio), a senator whose voting record on firearm legislation has been quite mixed.

McPain needs to get off the GOP ticket... & IMHO, check into a mental institute.

Hello... right to bear arms, McPain.

Maggie_T

12-03-2001, 05:03 PM

Sheesh, what a pain he is! http://warlady1.com/smilies/sulk.gif

Warlady

12-03-2001, 05:10 PM

He needs to get OUT of the Republican party. McCain you listening? Get the fugg out of our party.

**DONOTDELETE**

12-03-2001, 05:14 PM

Boxcutters are not the typical arms dealing done at gunshows...where is ANY proof we have firearmed terrorists here in these United States? There isn't even a threat! I have yet to see any Arabic/Islamic people at any gunshow. Believe you me, I can tell the difference between a cajun accent and an Arabic one.

This is feel-good legislation and we are paying for this kind of trash? The citizens of Arizona need an immediate recall election to call back their obiviously ill Senator. NOW!!!

**DONOTDELETE**

12-03-2001, 05:15 PM

Listening???
The lights are on... but nobody is home. images/icons/grin.gif

Warlady

12-03-2001, 05:31 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by letusin2K:
Listening???
The lights are on... but nobody is home. images/icons/grin.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

God, Lettuce ain't that the truth.

MaximumSam

12-03-2001, 06:06 PM

Could someone explain how this legislation will effectively end gun shows? Surprisingly, the article never mentioned that.

**DONOTDELETE**

12-03-2001, 06:19 PM

How can be againist gun control. Dont you want to make it harder for criminals and children to get guns.

Warlady

12-03-2001, 06:23 PM

Sam gun shows are only on the weekends. The 3 day waiting period for background checks pretty much shuts down a gun show.

David, if you could guarantee gun control would keep guns out of the hands of ciminials I might be willing to give it a shot but 20,000 gun laws on the books and there is no evidence of any of them preventing criminals from aquiring guns. Parents are supposed to keep guns out of the hands of children. No gun law can do that.

**DONOTDELETE**

12-03-2001, 06:29 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by MaximumSam:
Could someone explain how this legislation will effectively end gun shows? Surprisingly, the article never mentioned that.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Silly boy, it will not end gunshows but it will end private sales of firearms. Not one licensed dealer can ever sell a firearm without a completed and signed ATF Form 4473. That has been the law of the land for the past 32 years. There is NO gunshow loophole. Never has been, never will be.

The moment you require government intervention in the sale or transfer of firearms is the moment you have completely done away with the "shall not be infringed" portion of the Second Amendment. This Amendment isn't a right granted by the government, its a right NATURAL to all. Matter of fact, it applies to all ten. The first Ten (and that number is VERY IMPORTANT for ONE NATION, UNDER GOD) Amendments are a declaration by the founders of This Great Country that a Supreme Being exists and this Being granted these rights to each and every one of us.

This Bill of Rights is NOT amendable and all are to be taken in whole for their strength is one arising from the unity. Remove one right or even infringe upon it in the slightest and you have started the precedent to attack all.

So now Max, your homework assignment if you desire to learn, is to find one crime committed with a firearm purchased in a private sale arising from a gunshow.

Let me make it easier. Find out how criminals acquire firearms.

**DONOTDELETE**

12-03-2001, 06:32 PM

The point of gun control is to make it harder for criminals to get guns. That is why it is needed. A felon should not be able to walk into a gunshow and buy a gun that is wrong.

**DONOTDELETE**

12-03-2001, 06:43 PM

A felon cannot "walk into a gunshow and buy a gun" any easier than he can buy a newspaper and find a classified ad of someone selling a gun. There is no "gunshow loophole".

Furthermore, all guns have at least one ATF 4473 on them. The original owner knows this and must carefully dispose of any firearm they have or sell it to someone who has presented necessary proof of identification and suitability.

Criminals and terrorists do not frequent gunshows. How do I know? Because they are scared to death of the people and possibility of detection, arrest or aprehension.

It is a crock to say legal private owners of firearms are the reason criminals have guns without offering one shed of evidence any criminal has ever obtained a firearm in such manner.

Criminals get firearms illegally. If one law is broken (criminal getting a firearm), what is the motive not to break another one to do it (rob a gunstore)?

**DONOTDELETE**

12-03-2001, 06:49 PM

Felons buy guns from gun shows all the time. But your right they can just buy one off the street. Its sad that guns are so prevelint in our society. Hopefully in the future we will evolve as a people and just ban all guns.

**DONOTDELETE**

12-03-2001, 06:53 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by david255:
Felons buy guns from gun shows all the time. But your right they can just buy one off the street. Its sad that guns are so prevelint in our society. Hopefully in the future we will evolve as a people and just ban all guns.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

David, you will have to show proof felons buy guns at gunshows. You cannot, period. There has never been an arrest of a known felon buying a gun at a gunshow. There have been undercover cops trying to buy but no letter of the law was broken.

Have you ever been to a gunshow? How do you know these things? Proof before action.

**DONOTDELETE**

12-03-2001, 06:56 PM

Come on you actually believe that felons havent bought guns from guns shows. Dont be naive man it happens all the time.

EagleTed

12-03-2001, 07:06 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by david255:
Come on you actually believe that felons havent bought guns from guns shows. Dont be naive man it happens all the time.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ever been to one, David?

**DONOTDELETE**

12-03-2001, 07:07 PM

nope not in to guns. I dont take pleasure in killing innocent animals. But I have read about them.

EagleTed

12-03-2001, 07:09 PM

**DONOTDELETE**

12-03-2001, 07:11 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by david255:
nope not in to guns. I dont take pleasure in killing innocent animals. But I have read about them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Let me get this straight. You KNOW who the felons are but you want to lock up guns?

Instead of making society safer by locking up the inanimate guns that cause no harm by themselves, why not make it safer by locking up FELONS who can do crime WITOUT guns?

David255, you ARE a moron. Quit proving it with each additional post.

**DONOTDELETE**

12-03-2001, 07:12 PM

here read this http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/stories/1999/05/14/jackson.guns/

It says this in the article "145 cases involving felons buying or selling guns, and 108 cases in which at least one gun-show gun was later used in a crime."

**DONOTDELETE**

12-03-2001, 07:12 PM

MaximumSam

12-03-2001, 11:50 PM

Silly boy, it will not end gunshows

Silly Keith, thank you for your frank answer which completely contradicts the NRA. I would respect the NRA a lot more if they actually told the truth in their propaganda, or something vaguely resembling the truth.

**DONOTDELETE**

12-04-2001, 04:32 AM

Max and Dave, Could I ask a simple question? What's you guys stand on abortion?

BTW David, bossy is out grazing right now. I'm graining her pretty heavy. And just when she starts feeling good about herself....it happens.muahahahahaa.

**DONOTDELETE**

12-04-2001, 04:58 AM

there is no "gun show loophole." the "gun show loophole" is really the "private sale loophole," which is the bit about how I can legally sell my gun to my buddy without having to make my buddy go through a background check, or i can give my kid a gun, or i can inherit my dad's gun, without checks.

That's the "loophole" you want to close. Think how successful you're likely to be, and what sort of orwellian watching you'd need to enforce that closing.

The_RANDy_Corporation

12-04-2001, 08:40 AM

Wouldn't we get a lot farther if we just banned all liberals? That's how I hope we "evolve" as a society.

MaximumSam

12-04-2001, 09:48 AM

Max and Dave, Could I ask a simple question? What's you guys stand on abortion?

Pro-Choice

That's the "loophole" you want to close. Think how successful you're likely to be, and what sort of orwellian watching you'd need to enforce that closing.

It does not seem very difficult to make people at gun shows adhere to the same laws as other businessmen. Maybe stick some officer at the major ones who goes around and makes sure everything is up to code. Or, just make the the property owner liable for if he doesn't make sure things are up to code. It wouldn't be that hard.

It isn't a "private sale" law, since everyone who wants it has specifically applied it to gn shows, and it is always described as a gun show law, and as you said, it would be difficult to enforce it for anything but gun shows.

**DONOTDELETE**

12-04-2001, 10:42 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>It isn't a "private sale" law, since everyone who wants it has specifically applied it to gn shows, and it is always described as a gun show law, and as you said, it would be difficult to enforce it for anything but gun shows. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How effective would this law be? All the trading parties would have to do to circumvent it would be to conduct the exchange off the gunshow floor.

As I stated before, there are NO statistics showing actual felons purchasing firearms from private citizens at gunshows. Since the advent of (instant) background checks, there have been instances of felons attempting to purchase firearms from licensed dealers at gunshows but these were averted.

oracle

12-04-2001, 01:00 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by david255:
here read this http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/stories/1999/05/14/jackson.guns/

It says this in the article "145 cases involving felons buying or selling guns, and 108 cases in which at least one gun-show gun was later used in a crime."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That statement doesn't indicate how many of the 145 cases involving felons were cases where the felon bought a gun, it could be as few as one.

Also that same article says:

<blockquote>
"Even the Justice Department says that guns that are sold at gun shows, less than two percent find themselves in illegal activities," said Craig.
</blockquote>

See that? Less than two percent. Clearly gun shows are not a significant source of firearms for criminals.

**DONOTDELETE**

12-04-2001, 01:25 PM

Facts are meaningless to the VLWC, they operate on emotion and 'I read it somewhere'. It's like oral sex not being sex, just ask Bubba.

We should have learned by now that trolls look for reactions and are not concerned with facts that prove them to be liars. Why waste the time, it's meaningless. Have you forgotten the yukon troll??

TheRealLobo

12-04-2001, 02:04 PM

MaximumSam

12-04-2001, 02:13 PM

Why do you want to restrict legal transfers in the name of banning illegal ones?

Are legal transfers being restricted? As far as I can tell, this legislation applies gun sale law to gun shows as well as regular businesses. Will people who should be able to get guns be unable to get them?

TheRealLobo

12-04-2001, 02:21 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by MaximumSam:
Why do you want to restrict legal transfers in the name of banning illegal ones?

Are legal transfers being restricted? As far as I can tell, this legislation applies gun sale law to gun shows as well as regular businesses. Will people who should be able to get guns be unable to get them?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gun sale laws apply at gun shows.

ALL sales by firearms dealers at gun shows are required to follow the same terms as when the dealers sell some from their shops.

The non-dealers (private citizens who are not in the business of selling guns) also must follow the same rules at gun shows as if they WEREN'T at a gun show.

MaximumSam

12-04-2001, 03:08 PM

OK, then what will this legislation do?

**DONOTDELETE**

12-04-2001, 03:21 PM

David,

Felons do not buy guns at gun shows "all of the time". Very few guns used in crimes come from gun shows and most of these are bought by people who have no problem passing a background check and later give it to someone else.

ALL sales by dealers have to pass the same check as a sale made at a gun shop.

The only sales made at gun shows not subject to background checks are sales made between individuals attending the gunshow, not sales by dealers. These sales could just as easily be made out in the parking lot and often are.

No gun law has ever stopped even one criminal from having a gun and never will. You can only disarm honest citizens who obey the law.

Criminals could care less about laws.

TheRealLobo

12-04-2001, 03:38 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by MaximumSam:
OK, then what will this legislation do?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

NOT A DAMN THING! That is why it is worthless. It won't accomplish anything, why do it? Why waste the money?

MaximumSam

12-05-2001, 12:34 AM

How effective would this law be? All the trading parties would have to do to circumvent it would be to conduct the exchange off the gunshow floor.

A. I thought most gunowners were patriotic and inclined to follow the law. If we tell them to follow certain laws to prevent felons from getting guns, I hope they would be inclined to comply.

B. Where would they go? The bathroom? Behind a bush? Out in the street? I suppose some people will be inclined to break the law, but it seems hard to circumvent this by simply going "off the showroom floor."

**DONOTDELETE**

12-05-2001, 12:47 AM

Pure poppycock. Why do you want to restrict legal transfers in the name of banning illegal ones? Of what common good would it be to require everyone to go through a holder of a Federal Firearms License to transfer ownership?

You will not stop illegal transfers, period. You only seek to tighten the noose on legal ownership.

Private transfers ARE already tightly controlled by the fact the original owner who filled out the ATF 4473 is on record.

I have sold a few firearms to such people and each time I burned a copy of their driver's license. Did I have to do this because of law? No, its just to cover my butt and name on the ATF 4473.