Homeschoolers barred from religious materials

[tacitus]

Homeschoolers barred from religious materials (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38192)

Government issues order after luring parents into district program
Posted: April 24, 2004
1:00 a.m. Eastern


© 2004 WorldNetDaily.com

Homeschooling parents in a Canadian province have been ordered to stop using religious-based materials or other "unofficial" resources when they teach their children at home.

Pamela Nagle, a Christian, is one of many angry parents in British Columbia who say they will not abide by the order, according to the Vancouver Sun.

"They can't tell me what to do in my own home," said Nagle, whose son is homeschooled but attends a public school one day a week.

Nagle told the paper the materials she uses should not matter as long as her son's education meets British Columbia's standards.

<hr>

Here we go again.

[Rink]

Already posted
Homeschoolers barred from religious materials - Around The World - International Events section. (http://freeconservatives.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/325497/page/0/view/collapsed/sb/5/o/all/fpart/1)

[Aethariel]

This isn't surprising at all. Nor should it be. The fact that the parents want to give their the benefit of a diploma granted by, note this carefully, the state, means that they have to give their children an education that the state feels is comparable to what they would recieve at a public institution. This isn't an issue of the state telling parents "you can't read the Bible to Timmy in your home," the state is only saying "you can't read the Bible to Timmy at home, then turn around and demand we give you a diploma for it."

If the mother wants to have her child read religious texts, it is completely her right-- she can simply assign her child reading from religious sources on top of the studies required for homeschooling. However, if she wants the state to recognize the education she is providing as comparable to the education the state is providing, she has to meet the same basic guidelines, which I can only imagine include a prohibition on texts that promote a specific religious worldview.

Again, no-one is preventing her, in ANY way, from having Timmy read the Bible or whatever other religious books she deems necessary and proper. The problem lies only in the fact that she's trying to pass these books off as meeting the standards of public education, which they do not.

Moreover, it's appalling that this kind of incident is being perverted into some sort of 'anti-Christian discrimination,' when it's just an issue of playing by the rules of the game.

"Nagle told the paper the materials she uses should not matter as long as her son's education meets British Columbia's standards."

Of course, this is true. What this dimwitted mother fails to grasp is that perhaps the use of explicitly religious materials has been deemed a breach of B.C.'s educational standards.

[DesertFox]

Aethariel, let's not pretend this isn't what it is. Canada has been moving much more rapidly than America toward making it illegal to be Christian. Using the mantra of "standards" is the way it's done. We had a post on awhile back of a Canadian judge ordering a home-school mom to desist teaching her kids anything anti-homosexual, and to bring proof that she isn't.

[Aethariel]

Don't you think you're buying into this anti-Christian-bias hype a bit too much? Let's look at what you said:

[ QUOTE ]
Canada has been moving much more rapidly than America toward making it illegal to be Christian. Using the mantra of "standards" is the way it's done.

[/ QUOTE ]

How does this have anything to do with Christianity in particular? If you're going to talk about making it illegal to be Christian, please demonstrate for me how this policy doesn't equally apply to religions of all other stripes. You're a citizen, and it is in your best interest that the degrees and recognition of the state hold actual value as an academic standard. You would certainly object if a cult like Scientology tried to home-school their children using heavily biased Scientology texts, and then demanded that the government reward those children with an official diploma. Likewise, why would a non-Christian be interested in seeing the same thing go on with Christianity?

[ QUOTE ]
We had a post on awhile back of a Canadian judge ordering a home-school mom to desist teaching her kids anything anti-homosexual, and to bring proof that she isn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course, this all depends on the context. It would be a horrific decision, if the judge told the mother not to teach her children, at any point, anti-homosexual values. That would be a massive infringement on her rights. But it would be a perfectly reasonable decision if the judge merely demanded that, in home-schooling her children, she didn't use anti-homosexual materials in providing a state-certified education.

How does preventing a parent from using religious materials to execute a state mandate prevent the parent from teaching whatever religious values they please outside of the formal curriculum of 'home-schooling'? Furthermore, how do these laws target Christianity in particular, when they explicitly address all religions?

Please respond explicitly to these questions.

[Bluemoon_Rising]

Aethariel writes, "But it would be a perfectly reasonable decision if the judge merely demanded that, in home-schooling her children, she didn't use anti-homosexual materials in providing a state-certified education."

Huh? What the hell are you talking about? Either the child can or cannot pass the standards. Beyond that and in the meantime it's none of the government's damn business how we raise and educate our children so long as nobody's rights are being violated. You're merely defining rights in such as way as to conveniently impose your values on others.

Who the hell are you? Who elevated the efficacy of your opinion, your theory of education, above that of others? The answer to your question is that there is no such thing as "outside the formal curriculum of home-schooling". How the hell do you figure that religious training is not education or that the state has a right to dictate content?

Indeed, your statement makes no sense. How can she not expose her child to "anti-homosexual materials" at any time at all without violating the judge's standard? It's none of the judge's damn business to make such a ruling in any way, shape or form. Period.

Puritanical busybodies, thugs, self-appointed minders of others' business, sissy-ass snoops.

No, you account for the stupidity of your reasoning. You're the dimwit.

[DesertFox]

Read this (http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38195) . It's the small tip of large iceberg.

No alarmism is necessary. The brazenness with which the Lefties are cornering Christianity into a small box almost takes the breath away.

[Aethariel]

[ QUOTE ]
Read this . It's the small tip of large iceberg.

[/ QUOTE ]

I read it. Now, if you would, please answer the questions that I wrote in bold and specifically requested your response to. Thanks!

[DesertFox]

No. I'm bored with this subject. It's been discussed 1500 times. Read old stuff. Your questions have been answered over and over and over.

[Bluemoon_Rising]

I already did that for him. Why don't you account for the stupidity of your reasoning.

DesertFox:

Excellent article. I attached it to my recent op ed: Divine Proprietorship (http://freeconservatives.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&amp;Number=326796&amp;page=&amp;view=&amp;sb=5&amp; o=all&amp;fpart=&amp;vc=1&amp;PHPSESSID=).

[Aethariel]

Unbelievable....

[ QUOTE ]
Indeed, your statement makes no sense. How can she not expose her child to "anti-homosexual materials" at any time at all without violating the judge's standard?

[/ QUOTE ]

*sigh* Because, my friend, you're conflating "home-schooling" with "teaching children something at home." They aren't the same thing, and I think you know better. Parents can't use "anti-homosexual materials" in the specific act of executing the dictates of the federal educational requirements, but they are free to use this sort of material in any other setting. "Home-schooling," in a technical sense, doesn't mean every single thing you say to your child in the home-- this would be absurd. It only applies to texts and activities that exist for the explicit purpose of fulfilling federal educational requirements. There is NOTHING preventing a parent from finishing their "home-schooling" lessons for a day, and promptly saying "Alright, Timmy, now we're going to read about how homosexuals are evil, sodomizing bastards." That's your right, and the government isn't infringing on it at all.

ALL that the government is saying is that you can't use religiously-biased texts and lessons to earn a federal diploma-- and do you know why? Because the government has no right in granting certification to religious education, as it should keep its hands out of that entirely. You guys are, honestly, unbelievable-- not only are you screaming persecution over a non-issue, but a non-issue that exists because the government is trying to protect religious freedom. Do you actually want the government to be in the business of certifying religious education, hm? Is it the government's business to decide what religious creeds and beliefs count as a federally acceptable education? Hell no! Which is exactly why, if you insist upon making your education an explicitly religious one, the government isn't going to muddy the constitutional waters by giving you a diploma for it. Please, DesertFox, if you're going to avoid my other questions, at least answer this:

Why should the government be in the business of certifying religious education as acceptable or failing?

[rationalrev]

This is such a non-issue. The article clearly states that there are non-affiliated homeschool programs, in which you can teach using these materials.

She choose to enter a program that effectively is designed to allow parents to teach the same exact material at home as they teach in school.

What is so hard to understand about this?

Its no different than if your church had a "Bible expert" certification program, and in order to get the certifciation you had to be instructed on the materials that were approved by the church.

Then, let's say I enroll my child in that program and then I decide I'm going to teach my child about evolution and physics instead, but I still want to get $600 a month from the church and want my child to get the certification.

Does that make any sense? Of course not.

Unfortunately, this poor child is being taught by a mother that is too stupid to even understand the program that she is participating in....

[Chris]

[ QUOTE ]
Aethariel said:
ALL that the government is saying is that you can't use religiously-biased texts and lessons to earn a federal diploma....

[/ QUOTE ]

You can in the US, and it's not the feds that have the say, it's the individual states that set the homeschool requirements.

I think you'll find that your local Catholic high school uses them too, and guess what, they get gen-u-ine diplomas. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif


[ QUOTE ]
......-- and do you know why? Because the government has no right in granting certification to religious education, as it should keep its hands out of that entirely.

[/ QUOTE ]

No one is asking them to certify religious education. That would only happen if they made religion a required course for a diploma, which they don't. What the gov has no right in Sparky, is infringing religious freedoms.

[Bluemoon_Rising]

I'm not conflating anything. You're going on about some distinction or another that makes no difference whatsoever and would necessarily constitute the governmental micro-managing how we raise and educate our children. Period!

What in the hell are talking about anyway? Just like any other private parochial school, Christians who home-school their children routinely incorporate Bible lessons in the daily curriculum. There's no state or federal laws that prohibit this. The very idea is absurd.

Education is a private family matter, directed by parental consent and authority, not the state.

You’re either another mindless Canadian socialist or you were just hatched from a rock here in America and are utterly clueless. Except for requiring certain standards in proficiency relative to reading, writing and ciphering, Constitutional law in America does not grant the government--either at the state or federal level--the power to interfere with private education. In America, the government most certainly does recognize religious diplomas and degrees from religious schools, and in spite of the efforts of socialist thugs like yourself here in America who characterize your tyrannical attitudes as “protecting religious liberty” home-schoolers have won case after case against busybodies who have tried to micro-manage their private affairs. Moreover, the overwhelming majority of home-schooled kids in America go onto college, many of whom are armed with nothing more than stellar SAT scores, requiring no governmental recognition whatsoever.

You don’t know what you’re talking about.

[Aethariel]

[ QUOTE ]
You can in the US, and it's not the feds that have the say, it's the individual states that set the homeschool requirements.

I think you'll find that your local Catholic high school uses them too, and guess what, they get gen-u-ine diplomas

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps I am confused, then, about how diplomas worked. I was under the impression the diplomas granted by private religious schools are fundamentally different from the diplomas granted by public schools. If they are not, and graduates of private high schools recieve the example same diplomas as public high schools, then the state has no business prohibiting home-schooling parents from using the same texts as accredited private religious schools. (Emphasis on accredited.) However, it will take a bit of research to determine exact what is the case here, I'm looking in to it.


Moreover, rationalrev makes a very good point in his post. People would be served a lot better if they actually read into issues themselves, instead of depending on radical online "news" sources to tell them what to think. Any review of the actual facts regarding this case make quite clear that the mother is simply being stupid, as RR made quite clear.

EDIT! At this time, a review of websites turned up by a Google search of 'diploma private high school' all return results consistent with my conception of things-- that the diplomas granted by private schools are only *accredited* by federal organizations, and that the actual granting power of the diploma and authority behind the certification resides in the private institution. This makes it a fundamentally different case from home-schooling, where the parent is not acting as an accredited private organization, *but as an agent of the state.* Therefor, to respond to you more adequately, the case of private Catholic schools doesn't apply, unless the parent registered themself and underwent a certification process to be accredited as a private educational service. If this is not the case, the parent is acting as an agent of the state, in carrying out the mandates of a federal curriculum-- all of which prevents them from teaching religion at the same time. If you want to teach religion *immediately after* you finish your lessons on social studies-- go for it! The only legal objection is to teaching religion and social studies at the same time, while acting as an agent of the state.

[Bluemoon_Rising]

She is not being stupid. She is merely educating her children as she sees fit, not as you with your arbitrary standards would think to impose on her. It’s none of your business. It's none of the government's damn business--in America or Canada or anywhere else. The Canadian government is merely a renegade run by tyrants. In America, we simply don’t stand for that kind of crap. There are tens of millions of conservatives and libertarians in this nation that are well-armed, and we will take up those arms once again as we did against England if the government here attempts to impose the tyranny that you and your ilk have bowed to in socialist Europe and Canada.

You are from Canada? or Europe? Yes? Because if you're from America, you are woefully misinformed about our history and our politics--about our concept of the separation of Church and state, and educational liberty.

[Bluemoon_Rising]

irrationalrev writes, "She choose to enter a program that effectively is designed to allow parents to teach the same exact material at home as they teach in school."

Huh? What's the government's beef?

[ QUOTE ]
Nagle told the paper the materials she uses should not matter as long as her son's education meets British Columbia's standards.

[/ QUOTE ]

She's obviously fulfilling those standards. The government's complaint here is that she is teaching that which is above and beyond those standards. So what!?

What kind of convoluted bullshit is that?

Observe, ladies and gentlemen, we have Aethariel calling her a dimwit for doing precisely what he prescribes in the above; i.e, she meets the program's required standards . . . and then freely teaches her children according to her religious beliefs above and beyond.

How in the hell can the government tell her that she cannot do that? How can the government possibly, realistically, practically prevent it?

It is abundantly self-evident to anyone with an IQ above that of a rash that the Canadian government is attempting to arbitrarily create an official standard of education that cannot be attained by those would insist on including the teaching of their religious values along with the program’s required curriculum.

This women isn’t stupid. She’s abiding by the standards and rightly understands that the government is trying to violate her fundamental human rights, as a parent and as a Christian. She’s got the government’s ticket numbered and punched all right. It’s you nitwits that won’t be honest about what’s going on here. Aethariel even contradicts himself in a transparent attempt to cover his ignorance and the irrationality of his original position.

What the hell's wrong with you people anyway? Why aren't outraged by this? Brainwashed, Orwellian space cadets.

[Chris]

[ QUOTE ]
Aethariel said:

Perhaps I am confused, then, about how diplomas worked. I was under the impression the diplomas granted by private religious schools are fundamentally different from the diplomas granted by public schools. If they are not, and graduates of private high schools recieve the example same diplomas as public high schools, then the state has no business prohibiting home-schooling parents from using the same texts as accredited private religious schools. (Emphasis on accredited.)

[/ QUOTE ]

My son has an accredited diploma, and it was through the first homeschool diploma program ever accredited in my state. I didn't have to use any text book, and I didn't the first year I taught my son (11th grade). I simply found out what subjects needed to be covered that year and I made my own curriculum, and I research it all myself. It was a lot of work on my part though, so I bought prepared lessons his 12th grade year, and I bought them from Christian homeschooling curriculum sources.




[ QUOTE ]
EDIT! At this time, a review of websites turned up by a Google search of 'diploma private high school' all return results consistent with my conception of things-- that the diplomas granted by private schools are only *accredited* by federal organizations, and that the actual granting power of the diploma and authority behind the certification resides in the private institution. This makes it a fundamentally different case from home-schooling, where the parent is not acting as an accredited private organization, *but as an agent of the state.*

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're child is not part of an accredited diploma program (accredited by the state, btw, not the feds), then all they have to do is take the GED when they are done. I don't know where you get this "agent of the state" nonsense.


[ QUOTE ]
Therefor, to respond to you more adequately, the case of private Catholic schools doesn't apply, unless the parent registered themself and underwent a certification process to be accredited as a private educational service. If this is not the case, the parent is acting as an agent of the state, in carrying out the mandates of a federal curriculum-- all of which prevents them from teaching religion at the same time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not true. All a parent needs is to provide a copy of their high school diploma in order to be a homeschool instructor, and instruction can be as faith-based as they want.


[ QUOTE ]
If you want to teach religion *immediately after* you finish your lessons on social studies-- go for it! The only legal objection is to teaching religion and social studies at the same time, while acting as an agent of the state.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no such legal objection, except in your tyrantical little mind.

[Bluemoon_Rising]

He's got to be a Canadian, Chris, or a European. Even American leftists are not that ignorant about American law or that presumptuous.

Can you imagine our friend suggesting that a secularist family that elected to home-school its children be hounded by the government? Of course not. Yet he thinks it makes sense for religious folks to stop being religious in the rearing and education of their children . . . as if they were not religious, as if this or that governmental policy had anything to do the fundamental reality of human nature and behavior.

This is a perfect example of the stupidity of European and Canadian socialists who tell themselves and anyone else stupid enough to listen that they know better than the backward Americans, in spite of the fact that America stands technologically, scientifically and economically head-and-shoulders above the pack.

Interested American conservatives have a perfect understanding of the European’s and the Canadian’s socialist societies. It's they who cannot comprehend America's concept of religious and educational liberty.

Agent of the state?! Dear, Lord! These people are frightening! The dude just doesn't get it that in America, just like it used to be everywhere else in the Western World prior to the rise of socialism, parents are in charge of education, not the state. Education is a family matter. The state is beholden to our standards, not the other way around.

Of course, American leftists--the same morons who have dramatically undermined the quality of public education--are doing their best to change that too.

Friggin' control freaks, pissin' away the excellence and innovations afforded by liberty at every opportunity.

[Chris]

They distort the establishment clause to suit them, then ignore the infringement clause, and they have the audacity to lecture us about education and what is and isn't constitutional. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

[Aethariel]

[ QUOTE ]
Not true. All a parent needs is to provide a copy of their high school diploma in order to be a homeschool instructor, and instruction can be as faith-based as they want.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, in America, that is the case. But in Canada, it isn't, which was the point of this thread in the first place. I think that the Canadian government seems to be on perfectly solid conceptual and legal grounds for their actions-- however, it really doesn't strike me as a pragmatic decision. Insisting that religious education and education towards a diploma be separated makes good sense, but it carries the odor of unnecessary governmental micromanagement-- the law isn't actually enforceable, and there it doesn't really change the outcome of the child.

[ QUOTE ]
There is no such legal objection, except in your tyrantical little mind.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, my mind and those of the judges who passed such laws in Canada, apparantly. As I said above, I certainly respect what I imagine must be the reasoning behind the prohibition, but the decision is wildly impractical, and just serves to piss people off.

[Aethariel]

[ QUOTE ]
Agent of the state?! Dear, Lord! These people are frightening! The dude just doesn't get it that in America, just like it used to be everywhere else in the Western World prior to the rise of socialism, parents are in charge of education, not the state. Education is a family matter. The state is beholden to our standards, not the other way around.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is, as Chris pointed out, why the standards are fundamentally different between Canada and the US. While I'm pretty sure my arguments would be near dead on the mark for Canadian educational systems, they don't apply very well in the US, where parents are given a lot more latitude in how to teach. However, I'd certainly like to see that change-- I would hope that bad education is abolished altogether. Not only would I want to see things like home-schooling regulated a lot more forcefully, but I would want to see the budget for education dramatically improved, with a focus on rescripting procedure and practice in order further help the process.

[ QUOTE ]
Friggin' control freaks, pissin' away the excellence and innovations afforded by liberty at every opportunity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really. How long do you think the US would survive in a global economy if it moved to a system where everyone was home-schooled? Not very long at all, my friend. Home-schooling is an educational abberation, reserved for cases where their exists a serious problem-- either a health issue in the case of the child, or some sort of deep-seeded, bizarre ideas in the case of the parent. Solid public education is the background of a well-functioning democracy, and ours needs dramatic improvement-- any simple poll of an Americans regarding world events, science, economics reveals exactly why we get the elected officials that we do.

[Timberwolf]

[ QUOTE ]
How long do you think the US would survive in a global economy if it moved to a system where everyone was home-schooled? Not very long at all, my friend.

[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, it is quite likely that we would slaughter the rest of the world with our innovation, work ethic and desire to excel, as we once did.

[ QUOTE ]
Home-schooling is an educational abberation, reserved for cases where their exists a serious problem-- either a health issue in the case of the child, or some sort of deep-seeded, bizarre ideas in the case of the parent.

[/ QUOTE ]
That is an outright lie. Home schooled children hand PS kids there ASSES in EVERY academic subject when tested.

[ QUOTE ]
Solid public education is the background of a well-functioning democracy, and ours needs dramatic improvement-- any simple poll of an Americans regarding world events, science, economics reveals exactly why we get the elected officials that we do.

[/ QUOTE ]
Any simple polling amonst PS kids and HS kids reveals the wide chasm between the level of education received by each group with the PS kids losing by a very wide margin.

Try again, Sunshine.

[Aethariel]

[ QUOTE ]
Home schooled children hand PS kids there ASSES in EVERY academic subject when tested.

[/ QUOTE ]

How interesting. Could you give me a citation?

[tacitus]

[ QUOTE ]
Aethariel said:
[ QUOTE ]
Home schooled children hand PS kids there ASSES in EVERY academic subject when tested.

[/ QUOTE ]

How interesting. Could you give me a citation?


[/ QUOTE ]

www.hslda.org/docs/study/comp2001/ (http://www.hslda.org/docs/study/comp2001/) HomeSchoolAchievement.pdf

Read`em and weep.

[dPrasse]

[ QUOTE ]
Aethariel said:
[Not really. How long do you think the US would survive in a global economy if it moved to a system where everyone was home-schooled? Not very long at all, my friend. Home-schooling is an educational abberation, reserved for cases where their exists a serious problem-- either a health issue in the case of the child, or some sort of deep-seeded, bizarre ideas in the case of the parent. Solid public education is the background of a well-functioning democracy, and ours needs dramatic improvement-- any simple poll of an Americans regarding world events, science, economics reveals exactly why we get the elected officials that we do.

[/ QUOTE ]

You make no sense .........
"any simple poll of an Americans regarding world events, science, economics reveals exactly why we get the elected officials that we do. "

How does that prove YOUR point ? Since a vast vast majority of kids are in govt schools .your last sentence proves that the GOVT schools are the problem !

How to improve education ?

Vouchers so parents can send their kids to the best schools , not the one that is forced on them by govt map drawers .....

get rid of the tenure system for all govt teachers .......
every year , we see smart , ambitious young teachers fired , for budgetery reasons , while old , non -motivated union hacks stay on ....

and when a young motivated teacher is in govt schools , they get burnt out dealing with the beaurocrats that are more interested in saving their cushy butt covering chairs than looking at real inovation .....

it is a real battle , every year , to keep money flowing into the gifted programs , because the gifted teacher are unconventional ..... they have already been told by the local govt hacks that they are teaching the kids too much !!!!

"What will we teach them in High School?" yes .direct quote !

Maybe turn High Schools back into college prep schools , instead of them being remedial baby-sitting buildings ....


and yes , private school students run circles around govt educated students ......... that is why govt educators are threatened by home schoolers ......... My daughters all went to a Church pre-school and Kindergarten ........ the teachers know which students are home/private schooled vs the govt run kindygarten ....

sorry dude (dudette?) .... stop worshipping at the alter of govt schools ..... you are being misled .

( and , yes , I realize that their are people in the govt system that care ....... )

Great charts comparing home school vs govt school .........

another fine example of govt going for the average mediocraty .........

[Timberwolf]

[ QUOTE ]
tacitus said:
[ QUOTE ]
Aethariel said:
[ QUOTE ]
Home schooled children hand PS kids there ASSES in EVERY academic subject when tested.

[/ QUOTE ]

How interesting. Could you give me a citation?


[/ QUOTE ]

www.hslda.org/docs/study/comp2001/ (http://www.hslda.org/docs/study/comp2001/) HomeSchoolAchievement.pdf

Read`em and weep.

[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks for catchin' my 6, tac....appreciate it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon16.gif

[Bluemoon_Rising]

[ QUOTE ]
However, I'd certainly like to see that change-- I would hope that bad education is abolished altogether. Not only would I want to see things like home-schooling regulated a lot more forcefully, but I would want to see the budget for education dramatically improved, with a focus on rescripting procedure and practice in order further help the process. --Aethariel

[/ QUOTE ]


Oh, I know you would. But what you would get instead is a civil war, you fascist thug. It's none of your business to tell me how to rear and educate my children. We Christians are smarter than you socialist nitwits with half our brains tied behind our backs anyway. Hence, I hold that we Christians be in charge of the nation's education system, whereby you will bow before us and hand your children over to us . . . or else. Oopsy. That's not quite what you had in mind, was it?

Would you please point out to me where it is written in the cosmos that secular humanists/socialists, except by brutal force or the tyranny of the mob, have been endowed with extra-human rights which entitle them to oversee the rearing and education of other people's children?

You're either a despicable monster or blissfully unaware of the outrageous implications of your agenda, and you will get no respect or civility from me.

Bad education?! What are you talking about? Parochial- and home-schooled children--the overwhelming majority of whom go on to college and are actively sought out by universities and colleges due to their stellar SATs--have been handily outperforming public education students for decades. Where have you been?

What is needed in our public education system is more competition, not less. More regulation and money, which would simply be squandered like the billions that have gone before, are the very last things needed.

An aberration?!

Homeschooling in America over the last few decades has become a sophisticated network of associations allied with a growing number of business interests and legal organizations across the country. Those homeschooling their children include both secularists and religionists, and the number of households opting for this alternative have quadrupled over the last decade, consistent with the growing demand for broader educational choice via school vouchers and tax incentives directed toward charter schools and other private institutions. A whole new industry--producing texts, curriculum plans and training--has grown up around it.

The only idiots being produced anywhere with "deep-seeded, bizarre ideas" about reality and the world beyond are coming out of the public education system--Orwellian space cadets blindly goose-stepping toward totalitarianism. Backbone (you said “background”) of democracy, my ass.

Your system sucks, and that's why parents are pulling their children out of it. What an arrogant, ill-informed fool you are. My 14-year-old, who will begin her freshman year of college next year, would run circles around you.

I ask you, ladies and gentlemen, what are we to make of this incoherent, contradictory statement?

[ QUOTE ]
[H]owever, it really doesn't strike me as a pragmatic decision. Insisting that religious education and education towards a diploma be separated makes good sense, but it carries the odor of unnecessary governmental micromanagement-- the law isn't actually enforceable, and there it doesn't really change the outcome of the child.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which is it, Dorothy? Impractical? sensible? unenforceable? or irrelevant?

Which one of the adjectives in the series above does not belong in the set?

Behold the confused, convoluted thought processes of the self-appointed busybodies who think to oversee the education of our children.

The conservative members on this board not included, most of the public educators that I’ve run across through the years were morons--poor writers and thinkers.

[Timberwolf]

Geez, Blue....his/her grandchildren are gonna feel that one.../ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif

[Bluemoon_Rising]

It's the casual way in which these silly-asses pronounce their heinous political objectives. . . . Policy speak, ya know. . . . Never mind human rights . . . the actual outcomes or the nature of their motives. . . . They think we won’t notice.

[Aethariel]

Your posts have all been noted, and I will respond once I have found some actual information on the subject. I don't trust HSLDA to be even remotely unbiased, so I'm attempting to find an online reproduction of the actual study, or some work by the government to corroborate those findings.

Moreover, I would be interested in finding a comparison between home-schoolers and well-funded, well-staffed public schools. It isn't any secret that the averages for public schools are getting positively doused by failing inner-city schools, plagued by inefficiency and institutional racism.

[DesertFox]

Umm, you got proof of that, Aethariel? I teach in an inner city school. I taught at another inner city Phoenix school before coming to this one, and at an inner city school in Puerto Rico prior to that. In 11 years of teaching I've seen no institutional racism. Inefficiency, yes; but that's an argument FOR home schooling, not against.

It's real easy to bandy about such charges and just about impossible to find credible proof of them. I know because I looked real hard when I first started teaching, expecting to find it. It just wasn't there. Still isn't, unless you count the reverse discrimination of allowing failing kids to pass just because it's easier than making them come up to standard.

But then, that isn't the sort of institutional discrimination you're talking about, is it?

[tacitus]

[ QUOTE ]
I would be interested in finding a comparison between home-schoolers and well-funded, well-staffed public schools.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do a Google search.

[Wyatt_Junker]

Racism is the eject lever that libs pull when their arguments start to nosedive. Its SOP.

Like drywall installers, racism is the extra caulking libs use to fill in the cracks. A gob here, a gob there. Huge dollops of "racism", then smear it in with your spatchula.

[Aethariel]

[ QUOTE ]
Do a Google search.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, yes, I tried. All I found were either unrelated links, or webpages promoting fundamentalist Christian homeschooling programs. I'm still browsing around the web, though-- I do hope to find a good comparison between home schoolers and public schools in different regions, along with a spread that varies on grade. I'm not actually too skeptical that homeschoolers outperform the average public school student-- the public education system in the US is such a hideous, hideous mess. However, the data on the website makes me suspicious-- I find it difficult to believe that parents without a high school diploma can give an education that beats that out public schools by a solid 20 percentile points. If you happen to have a link to the full copy of the study, or some sort of government site with data, I'd be greatly appreciative-- I'm sure you can understand my skepticism regarding the HSLDA website, given their affiliations.

[HomeschoolrsRUs]

As a homeschooler who also uses "religious" curriculums, I think a little clarity might be in order. If one is teaching their child to read and chooses to use the Bible to do so, will the child be incapable of reading because a Bible text was used instead of Dick and Jane books? If you are diagramming sentences, aren't there sentences in the Bible that can be diagrammed? If you are studying history, is there not historical information in the Bible that can be researched, verified or denied? If you are teaching composition, can't a child writing an essay, research paper, report, choose a topic chosen from a Bible concordance or scripture? Was not the dimensions of the Ark specifically listed in the Bible, and couldn't they be researched and applied to current mathematics equations? And of course science, which is most often the "sticky-wicket" for educrats, there are still scientific strands of thought that can be found within it's (Bible) bindings that can be discovered, experiments created, and ideas researched. If then, in the end, the child can read at a level commensurate with or above the "standards," if the child can do mathematical calculations that are accurate, if their writing skills, historical knowledge, scientific comprehension is all proven to be on standard or above, hasn't the child earned their diploma by meeting the standards? Just because "religious" cirricula is used, doesn't mean learning hasn't occurred.

[No_common_sense]

Making a statistical analysis between public and home schools would be difficult because homeschooled kids have at least one involved loving parent and that will significantly increase performance. The home schooled kids are on par with the AP kids in the public schools. However two things that would be lacking with homeschooled kids is the availability of advanced course materials and developing social skills. I'm not sure how many parents would be able to teach their kids differential equations. If kids don't learn to work and play with various members of their peer group they won't be able to cope with the real world. I went to public school but I also learned a lot from my parents and they were always the final authority on subject matter. At home I would read my Bible and be encouraged to witness to kids at school. I still do.

[Aethariel]

[ QUOTE ]
However two things that would be lacking with homeschooled kids is the availability of advanced course materials and developing social skills. I'm not sure how many parents would be able to teach their kids differential equations.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this, and it is why I find the findings not-too-convincing, along with the argument that America would rise to global dominance if everyone was homeschooled. Sure, homeschooling can probably surpass public schools in terms of teaching basic addition, reading, history, and anything else that doesn't require expertise. But I know that those figures, that parents without high school diplomas beating public schools by 20 percentile points, would fall through the floor the minute you started talking about advanced material that is regularly covered in the junior/senior year of high school. My parents both have master's degrees, but I know they can't teach me Calculus 3 and special relativity.

Moreover, as you also mentioned, social skills is a concern-- merely saying "well, we send our children outside to see other kids" isn't adequate-- this doesn't even come close to simulating the forced interaction of high school.

My temporary thoughts, pending better information.

EDIT:

"Even today, the majority of parents who homeschool their children do so for religious reasons, basing instruction on "religious teachings, moral values, and patriotism mixed with basic skills"

Russo, Charles J., and William M. Gordon. "Home Schooling: The In-House Alternative." School Business Affairs 62, 12 (December 1996): 16-20

As I suspected, and said earlier, it appears most homeschooling occurs because of religious concerns.

[Bluemoon_Rising]

Aethariel, "the public education system in the US is such a hideous, hideous mess."

My point exactly. It sucks, and its leftists like you, with your regulations and your wasteful bureaucracies, who make it suck. However, it didn’t always suck. . . .

I find it difficult to believe that parents without a high school diploma can give an education that beats that out public schools by a solid 20 percentile points.

Without high school diplomas?! What are you talking about? What are you thinking? The overwhelming majority of home-schooled children are taught in homes that are headed by upper-middle-class, college-educated professionals.

I'm sure you can understand my skepticism regarding the HSLDA website, given their affiliations.

Nah. It’s not skepticism; it’s arrogance.

[Bluemoon_Rising]

No_common_sense unscientifically writes and Aethariel unscientifically agrees:

<ul type="square">However two things that would be lacking with homeschooled kids is the availability of advanced course materials and developing social skills. I'm not sure how many parents would be able to teach their kids differential equations.[/list]

Nonsense, home-schooled kids have plenty access to advanced materials and instruction. Such resources are easily obtained and routinely applied by homeschoolers. What in the world are you guys thinking? Moreover, most home-schoolers belong to associations. Children are not taught in isolation; they're taught in groups and the responsibilities for teaching the various disciplines at the higher levels are divided among those parents with the respective expertise. Beyond that, the so-called lack of development in social skills is an old canard, a myth, a purely subjective charge typically leveled by leftist political interests whose goal is to meddle, intimidate and check the growing disaffection with the public education system.

You guys are just out of the loop. I repeat:

<ul type="square">Homeschooling in America over the last few decades has become a sophisticated network of associations allied with a growing number of business interests and legal organizations across the country. Those home-schooling their children include both secularists and religionists, and the number of households opting for this alternative have quadrupled over the last decade, consistent with the growing demand for broader educational choice via school vouchers and tax incentives directed toward charter schools and other private institutions. A whole new industry--producing texts, curriculum plans and training--has grown up around it (Bluemoon).[/list]

Also:

<ul type="square">Parochial- and home-schooled children--the overwhelming majority of whom go on to college and are actively sought out by universities and colleges due to their stellar SATs--have been handily outperforming public education students for decades.[/list]

Home-schooled children do more than just cope with the real world. They thrive. Your assumptions are just that . . . assumptions--erroneous, unfounded.

Homschooling Grows Up (http://www.andrew82.net/commentary/general/Homschooling_Grows_Up.html)

[Bluemoon_Rising]

Learning Stream: The Education Store (http://www.homeschooldiscount.com/)

robinsoncurriculum.com (http://www.robinsoncurriculum.com/)

sonlight.com (http://www.sonlight.com/)

oakmeadow.com (http://www.oakmeadow.com/)

amblesideonline.homestead.com (http://www.amblesideonline.homestead.com/)

Calvert School.com (http://home.calvertschool.org/hs/curriculum/?OVRAW=homeschool%20free%20curriculum&amp;OVKEY=home%2 0school&amp;OVMTC=phrase)

rosettastone.com (foreign language) (http://www.rosettastone.com/hs/catalog?query=hshomeschool&amp;language=&amp;OVRAW=homesch ool%20free%20curriculum&amp;OVKEY=home%20school&amp;OVMTC= phrase)

middleschool.net (http://www.middleschool.net/hmschool/hscurpgs.htm)

mcjonline.com (http://www.mcjonline.com/vendors.htm)

The list goes on forever.

[Bluemoon_Rising]

More Facts:

Washtimes.com: Homegrown success (http://www.washtimes.com/culture/20031022-092314-2522r.htm)

Worldmag.com: Citizenship 101 (http://www.worldmag.com/world/issue/11-01-03/national_5.asp)

Home Educated and Now Adults: Their Community and Civic Involvement, Views About Homeschooling, and Other Traits (http://www.nheri.org/modules.php?name=Content&amp;pa=showpage&amp;pid=27)

Home Education: Across the United States (http://www.hslda.org/docs/study/ray1997/default.asp)

[Chris]

[ QUOTE ]
Aethariel said:
Well, in America, that is the case. But in Canada, it isn't, which was the point of this thread in the first place......

There is no such legal objection, except in your tyrantical little mind. - Chris

Well, my mind and those of the judges who passed such laws in Canada, apparantly...............

[/ QUOTE ]


Canada wasn't the point of our discussion, which started with me saying "You can in the US", as you very well know. You don't have a clue what you are talking about, and you think you have all the answers, and somehow all the rights, when it comes to other peoples kids. Once again, it's only in your tyrantical little mind.

[Aethariel]

[ QUOTE ]
Without high school diplomas?! What are you talking about? What are you thinking? The overwhelming majority of home-schooled children are taught in homes that are headed by upper-middle-class, college-educated professionals.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was only referencing the content of the study that tacitus provided for me from HSLDA, wherein it claims that students taught by parents who didn't even earn a GED crush public school education by a serious margin-- one of my many reasons to be skeptical of the reference. Perhaps you should actually read it yourself?

[HomeschoolrsRUs]

Okay, have you ever BEEN to a homeschool curriculum fair? Do you even know the enormous amount of resources available to our children? I have, and I do, as I go every year searching for the best materials to help guide my children's academic excellence. And if I can't teach it, I find someone who can -- there are tutors galore (I live near a college town, where students are always looking for opportunities to make a buck and help their studies).
As for socialization, what real world environment moves you from place to place, regardless of if you are in the middle of a learning experience, to the sound of a bell? My kids aren't just being prepared to enter the "real world," they are living in it. They are around people of all ages, in all kinds of situations, learning about banking when we are at the bank, about government when we go to vote, about citizenship when we deal with Property Appraiser Boards and Citiy Commissions. We take EVERY opportunity for teachable moments as learning experiences. We discuss, evaluate, review, and sometimes assign work based on these occurences or events. When a current event happens, we don't have to try to figure a way to plug it in to a lesson plan we had to turn in at the beginning of the year, we jump on it right then.
And again I say, if homeschoolers are DOING the job they are undertaking, what's the problem with the way they do it? The children are theirs, they birthed them, are raisng them, and are ultimately responsible for them -- why then should we trust STRANGERS who don't even know them to look out for their academic welfare? The destination is a productive, happy involved citizen, does it matter which road you take if both (public schoolers &amp; homeschoolers) get there?

[Longhorn_Platinum]

[ QUOTE ]
No_common_sense said:
However two things that would be lacking with homeschooled kids is the availability of advanced course materials and developing social skills.

[/ QUOTE ]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/serious3.gif <font color="blue">The kids at my afternoon "school" were horrified to learn that I plan to homeschool Xane, &amp; they gave me that same tired line about how he won't develop social skills. I reminded them of the social "skills" that I'm seeïng at their "school"; incessant talking, classroom disruptions, disrespect &amp; insubordination toward adults, vulgar language, disrespect for "school" property, &amp; consistent tardiness, just to name a few. Those aren't the social skills I want Xane to learn.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/serious3.gif A couple of years ago, I had a freshman in a class who had been homeschooled through grade 8. She was a quiët, respectful, mature young lady, surrounded by a noisy, boisterous lot. I couldn't help thinking where people get off saying that homeschooled children won't develop social skills. That's just pure biss. Oh, &amp; she consistently scored higher on tests than her classmates.</font>

[Longhorn_Platinum]

[ QUOTE ]
Longhorn_Platinum said:
I reminded them of the social "skills" that I'm seeïng at their "school"; incessant talking, classroom disruptions, disrespect &amp; insubordination toward adults, vulgar language, disrespect for "school" property, &amp; consistent tardiness, just to name a few.

[/ QUOTE ]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon115.gif <font color="blue">Oops. I forgot lying, stealing, &amp; cheating.</font>

[Bluemoon_Rising]

I'm on your side Homeschool. You don't have to convince me.

[Westbrook]

As I always say, "When it comes to school, there's no place like home."

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif

And congratulations, LP, you are making the RIGHT decision.

You will be the one sees your child read and understand a word for the first time.

You will be the one who shows them the importance of ciphering by playing store and making change.

You will be the one to whom your children will look for knowledge and wisdom.

May God abundantly bless your homeschooling endeavors.

[tacitus]

[ QUOTE ]
Longhorn_Platinum said:
[ QUOTE ]
Longhorn_Platinum said:
I reminded them of the social "skills" that I'm seeïng at their "school"; incessant talking, classroom disruptions, disrespect &amp; insubordination toward adults, vulgar language, disrespect for "school" property, &amp; consistent tardiness, just to name a few.

[/ QUOTE ]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon115.gif <font color="blue">Oops. I forgot lying, stealing, &amp; cheating.</font>

[/ QUOTE ]

You forgot drug dealing, pimping, terrorizing, and in some cases murder. Yup those are great social skills.

[DesertFox]

Also learned are tattoos as art, naked bellies as fashion, "****" as a multipurpose noun/verb/adjective/adverb/gerund/participle.

[HomeschoolrsRUs]

BlueMoon,
Ooops, soory, still learning my way around the boards! I thought I was replying to Aethariel. Please forgive my faux paux!

[SunnyBrook]

[ QUOTE ]
Aethariel said:...she has to meet the same basic guidelines, which I can only imagine include a prohibition on texts that promote a specific religious worldview...the Bible or whatever other religious books she deems necessary and proper. The problem lies only in the fact that she's trying to pass these books off as meeting the standards of public education, which they do not.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm unfamiliar with the history of Canada's public education system, although I wouldn't be a bit surprised to learn that it at one time was inclusive/accepting of religious instruction.
Alas, how the mighty have fallen...

Irregardless, our newbie lib commie seems ignorant of the religious heritage of our American public education system. For many years, American public schools used the Bible and other religious materials as primary textbooks. Children learned to read from the Bible, and were required to memorize Scripture. I believe it was President Thomas Jefferson who signed a law requiring the Bible to be used as a textbook in all Washington DC public schools--would have to doublecheck to make sure on that.

Those of us on this board who are homeschooling our children or who are avid supporters of our friends who do so, are representative of the average home-schooling parents nationwide--intelligent, informed, patriotic American citizens, who weave into the tapestry of our teaching a shining thread of beliefs and moral principles.

I speak as a mother who has taught public school, has had children in private school, and has plans to homeschool my daughter this fall. I have 4 sisters who have taught in public and private schools, and who have at times homeschooled their own children. Two are current public school teachers, and two are current private school teachers.

How I choose to educate my children is an intensely personal decision, one which may vary from child to child, or as they grow from year to year. At this point, I plan to homeschool my daughter for 6th and 7th grades, before enrolling her in public school in our small town, which has a largely effective and responsible reputation. This decision is subject to change at my discretion. If I lived in other communities where I have previously lived, I wouldn't even consider public school as an option.

My personal experience has been that most homeschooling parents are well-read and educated people--often college graduates. Without exception, every homeschooled child that I've known (and I've known a bunch!) has been above average in academic performance. I sponsor a club for 3rd-5th grade girls. It is amazing to see the difference between those who are home or private schooled vs. those who are public schooled. The prior are always better readers and critical thinkers, they are consistently more mature, more articulate, and interact better with adults.

The poor social/peer skills argument doesn't hold water. I'm sure that a sliver-small minority of homeschooled children fit this description, but I would venture to say that a bigger sliver of publicly educated students fill the bill. Unfortunately, in public school, they are alienated even further and often join together with others like themselves in a perpetuation and magnification of their anti-social tendencies. Hence we have a few such nuts who make bombs and plot to blow up their schools.

I digress...the point I wish to make is that I'm not altogether concerned that my children fit in and identify with other children. I would much prefer that they be able to communicate with and respond to adults. After all, in a few short years, that's what they will need to be able to do in order to succeed in an adult world. Notwithstanding, most mature children who are able to interact with adults will also be able to effectively and confidently relate to other children.
I would much rather my daughter talk about world affairs and politics, moral issues and social concerns, than to spend hours discussing the latest fashion trends and pop music. Sure, she is aware of such trivial things, but not obsessed with them, as other kids I know.

In summation, my personal experience, combined with evidence I have studied, lead me to conclude that homeschoolers are equipped with a more balanced and mature worldview and a superior educational experience.

[Bluemoon_Rising]

I did read it. I have no problem with parents educating their children at home, even if they don't have a GED or a high school diploma. It's none of my business. Realistically, mostly only those who are successful and therefore intelligent and accomplished in spite of this handicap would attempt it anyway. Yout skepticism is unwarranted and arises from a conceit that understands very little about real wisdom and understanding . . . about that which is truly worth knowing.

[Longhorn_Platinum]

[ QUOTE ]
SunnyBrook said:
If I lived in other communities where I have previously lived, I wouldn't even consider public school as an option.

[/ QUOTE ]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon129.gif <font color="blue">Gee, I can't imagine why not. You wouldn't be thrilled to have your child taught by teachers who are told by administrators to "Let 'em cheat"? Where the superintendent cuts teaching positions to save money, while hiding a bank account worth $42,900,000? Where the priority is making sure the stadium has the latest "technology" of AstroTurf®? Go figure.</font>