The War on WalMart

[DesertFox]

Here is a story you're unlikely to read in the spate of press attacks on Wal-Mart these days:

When Hartford, Conn., tore down a blighted housing project, city officials hatched an innovative redevelopment plan: Lure Wal-Mart to the site, entice other retailers with the promise of being near the discount giant, and then use the development's revenues to build new housing. After Wal-Mart agreed, city officials and residents celebrated the idea of better shopping, more jobs and new housing in one of America's poorest cities.

But then outsiders claiming to represent the local community began protesting the project. Astonished city leaders and residents quickly discovered the forces fueling the campaign: a Connecticut chapter of the United Food and Commercial Workers Union; and ACORN, the radical community group. Outraged residents denounced outside interference. "These people looked for every possible reason to stop a project that the community wants," says Jackie Fongemie, a resident.

Though Wal-Mart has encountered opposition for years from anti-sprawl activists or small-town merchants, the Hartford drama exemplifies a new form of opposition, a coordinated effort of the Left in which unions, activist groups like ACORN and the National Organization of Women, and even plaintiffs' attorneys work together in alliances. They are fighting the giant retailer in statehouses, city halls and courts.

More than just a skirmish over sites, theirs is an assault on a company that embodies the productivity-driven, customer-oriented economy that emerged in the '90s, by opponents who argue that there is a hidden cost to business's increasing emphasis on low prices and high employee output. Opponents seek government or court edicts to force Wal-Mart and others like it to raise wages and offer workers more benefits, and they are rushing into battle just as the company expands to underserved urban communities, making the conflict a vital issue not just in Wal-Mart's traditional rural and suburban markets but, increasingly, in American cities. ...

Though union-sponsored campaigns have meant little to consumers, the constant attacks are scoring in the elite media, whose members rarely go to Wal-Mart and can't understand the importance of the stores to middle-American shoppers. Once celebrated in the press for Sam Walton's folksy wisdom, Wal-Mart today is just as likely to be the subject of stories with headlines such as: "Is Wal-Mart Too Powerful?" -- which advance the left's line that Wal-Mart's business model is undermining the buying power of the American worker. So striking have the attacks been that a Kansas City newspaper columnist recently suggested that the national press is "angry that average Americans don't share their perceptions of Wal-Mart as the bad guys."

Not surprisingly, the press downplays Wal-Mart's virtues: that it has never been accused of funny accounting; that it doesn't reward its executives with exorbitant salaries or perks; that not only do other executives call it the most admired company in America, but shopping surveys show it is the consumer's favorite store. But acclaim from common folk may not protect a company when elite opinion turns against it, influencing legislators, regulators and the courts. That's why Wal-Mart has become the chief private-sector target of trial lawyers, sued more than any other company, as the plaintiff's bar and its allies seek to achieve through litigation what activists struggle to accomplish in organizing drives. And every battle they win will cost the American consumer.

Full article here (http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/_wsj-war_on_walmart.htm)

[Rhino]

Yeah, free enterprise and evil corporations are such terrible things, aren't they?

[Vikingas]

When vandals and drug dealers are left to rule in downtown areas, it forces downtown businesses and home owners to lose their property, go out of business, and/or abandon their property.

So the way laws are enforced and not enforced, mainly is used to collect revenue from individuals able to pay.

Small business and downtown property investors are hurt. Corporations and those in local government and their friends benefit in being able to know where valuable real estate is, pick it up at bargain prices or even just take it.

Vandals that burn down property and the drug dealers are a corporate criminal's best friend.

In no way am I saying Wal-mart executives are acting illegally, but am bringing to light what happens to often and is hurting America.

Corporations are good as long as they are not unfairly wiping out smaller competitors, and end up being our only choice.

Competition and choice is American.

[Vikingas]

I posted other related links, my opinions on the subject, and reposted this forum here:

http://www.freespeech.com/archives/002546.html

Please check it out, as it shows the expense of corporate executives, officials, and their friends carving up historic downtown areas for their personal enrichment.

There is nothing wrong with corporations as long as there are not just a few mega corporations and nothing else.

[Warlady]

Vikingas what the hell are you talking about? Did you even read the article Fox posted? And you're still going after them?

[Incident_command]

I wish my walmart was like yours WL. I would love that.

[Vikingas]

It isn’t just about Wal-mart. I don’t disagree with having huge corporations, I just disagree with having JUST mega corporations.

If a giant corporation can pay fines as a business decision and put a smaller entity that is not violating rules out of business, and could not remain in business after having to pay a stiff fine, that to me is disgusting. I'm not saying Wal-mart has done that.

From having seen Wal-mart and other giants such as Home Depot come in and take over, it is, I guess just survival of the fittest.

But, the service, quality, and professionalism I came to know from the smaller stores, their experts, and family run entities have gone the way of the dinosaur.

[Gone_with_the_Wind]

I HATE WalMart. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif


Vikingas said: It isn’t just about Wal-mart. I don’t disagree with having huge corporations, I just disagree with having JUST mega corporations.
If a giant corporation can pay fines as a business decision and put a smaller entity that is not violating rules out of business, and could not remain in business after having to pay a stiff fine, that to me is disgusting. I'm not saying Wal-mart has done that.
From having seen Wal-mart and other giants such as Home Depot come in and take over, it is, I guess just survival of the fittest.
But, the service, quality, and professionalism I came to know from the smaller stores, their experts, and family run entities have gone the way of the dinosaur.



Warlady, /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/imwithstupid.gif

<font size=1>(But you already knew that)</font>

[DesertFox]

I get just as helpful service at Home Depot as I do at the family-run Ace Hardware and Harbor Freight. None is first-rate in service, but I'll settle for "helpful."

[Gone_with_the_Wind]

DesertFox said:
I get just as helpful service at Home Depot as I do at the family-run Ace Hardware and Harbor Freight. None is first-rate in service, but I'll settle for "helpful."


I like Home Depot because I get my money back if the rose bushes I buy there fail.

But WalMart: http://www.ufcw770.org/images/neighbor.GIF

[Vikingas]

Return policies and prices can change if there is a lack of competition.

I have noticed return policy changes a couple of years ago at a hardware giant.

[Rhino]

How many are as old as me and remember hearing the EXACT same arguments against malls? These arguments could have come verbatim from the folks that wanted malls outlawed thirty or so years ago.

[DesertFox]

(raises hand)

[CaliGirl]

DesertFox said:
I get just as helpful service at Home Depot as I do at the family-run Ace Hardware and Harbor Freight. None is first-rate in service, but I'll settle for "helpful."



/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic1.gif

I was in an Ace Hardware store the other day, and the dude helping me had tattoos all over his body of the skin showing, piercing of the ears, chin and eye brows. I just about /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon120.gif when he showed up at the "help" desk.

[HomeschoolrsRUs]

Walmart wanted to build a warehouse in an outlying area in our county here in Florida. The people FLOCKED to meetings, petition drives, forums, etc. to voice their opposition to the warehouse. This is an uninhabited area, just a big plot of land. It is near a busy highway, and semi-close to the interstate. As jobs are truly needed for our small town citizens here (as we are so close to a University town that all the "good," and I use that term loosely), jobs go to college kids, I didn't understand why all the negative reaction. It is the very people that were petitioning, meeting, protesting, etc., that FLOCK to the Walmart store in the nearby city weekly to pinch their pennies and cash in on their coupons.
I was raised to believe that competition is a good thing. But this is confusing. I know (from experience with the good intentions of the government gone bad) that when "things" get big, they very often get bad. I too enjoy and try to frequent the Mom &amp; Pop establishments, but the prices just can't compare with those of the big chains. It is sad, but true. I believe in small enterprise &amp; entrepreneurship (my parents owned their own business for all of my growing up life). But taxes, fees, permits, hidden taxes, OSHA requirements, environmental requirements, unemployment compensation, etc. are KILLING business, big and small.

[CaliGirl]

HomeschoolrsRUs said:
Walmart wanted to build a warehouse in an outlying area in our county here in Florida. The people FLOCKED to meetings, petition drives, forums, etc. to voice their opposition to the warehouse. This is an uninhabited area, just a big plot of land. It is near a busy highway, and semi-close to the interstate. As jobs are truly needed for our small town citizens here (as we are so close to a University town that all the "good," and I use that term loosely), jobs go to college kids, I didn't understand why all the negative reaction. It is the very people that were petitioning, meeting, protesting, etc., that FLOCK to the Walmart store in the nearby city weekly to pinch their pennies and cash in on their coupons.



The location in your town sounds great to help the teenagers, college age students to help the county.

My first experience with the Super Walmart is that what we are speaking of? It was in NM about 4 years ago, and I was so impressed with the prices, it's all I remembered.


I was raised to believe that competition is a good thing. But this is confusing. I know (from experience with the good intentions of the government gone bad) that when "things" get big, they very often get bad. I too enjoy and try to frequent the Mom &amp; Pop establishments, but the prices just can't compare with those of the big chains.



I am speaking from a small owner of a business who has a small amount of products. Competition has always been a good thing in America. It's how we all get ahead in life. However, the competition must not LIE to the American public to get sales to increase their profits. When a company lies to the public on what their products can do, and the lies comes back to them, that companies's days are numbered!


It is sad, but true. I believe in small enterprise &amp; entrepreneurship (my parents owned their own business for all of my growing up life). But taxes, fees, permits, hidden taxes, OSHA requirements, environmental requirements, unemployment compensation, etc. are KILLING business, big and small.



Yup! It's the American way now days! It's sad on how life has become this way of doing business. Guess we all can thank the government we now live under in our own states. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smack.gif

[HomeschoolrsRUs]

CaliGirl,
[ QUOTE ]
Yup! It's the American way now days! It's sad on how life has become this way of doing business. Guess we all can thank the government we now live under in our own states.

[/ QUOTE ]

You said that right. I am so sick of government's hands in my pockets. So sick of enabling someone else's victimhood with my hard earned (actually, Bubba's hard earned, I don't get paid for what I do) dollars. But how in the world do we stop it? Can we stop it? Can we turn it back to earlier days?

[Rhino]

[ QUOTE ]
HomeschoolrsRUs said:
......I don't get paid for what I do......

[/ QUOTE ]
Not in dollars maybe, but you're still paid, sometimes in riches far beyond the value of any monetary fortune.

[Gone_with_the_Wind]

[ QUOTE ]
Vikingas said:
Return policies and prices can change if there is a lack of competition.

I have noticed return policy changes a couple of years ago at a hardware giant.


[/ QUOTE ]

All I can really talk about is the live vegetation like flowers and roses. I bought 5 bareroot roses at one store where there was no refund policy. If they didn't make it, tough. They didn't make it, I didn't get my money back, and I had to replace them. I went to Home Depot and to Lowes which DO have return policies and ALL five I bought there survived.

I'm very happy with my roses and it is the first time I've ever tried to grow them. A dead bush doesn't do me any good, especially with Mother's Day coming this Sunday. If I could have gotten my money back on five bareroots, I could have bought at least one bouquet of flowers.

I have a mother-in-law and mother I love very much. I want to give roses to both of them. But now, I've really got to get more creative with Mother's Day coming in a few days...

Oh well!!! I'll figure something out! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon4.gif

[TheRealLobo]

Not to anyone specific but to those who have a problem with Wal-Mart.

The specific neighorhood mentioned in the story is blighted, and has no "mom and pop" stores.

Would you rather have a run down EMPTY city block, that generates no revenue, produces no jobs, drains cty resources, is a draw to crime, and slowly decays, OR would you rather have a Wal-Mart?

Your choice. Me? Wal-Mart. Their prices are better than most in town, they generally have what I need, and they don't frown on me carrying concealed.

If there is a specialty store that carries the merchandise I need at a reasonable price, I will shop there, otherwise, Wal-Mart is fine.

For those that don't like Wal-Mart and are on active duty, please show why you should shop at a commissary or an AAFES facility.

[Rink]

Seeing that Wal-mart carried a great deal of merchandise, much more than a mom &amp; pop store can carry, I dont see what the big deal is about, I have to drive either 33 miles east to go to a Wal-Mart Store or 40 miles west to one in Gresham oregon, but sometimes its worth it because those mom &amp; Pop stores just dont have the diverse amount of goods a Wal-Mart store has.

(wish we could get one in my town, would be a great employment boon to my itty bitty teeny weeny backwards run town).

[Gone_with_the_Wind]

[ QUOTE ]
TheRealLobo said:
Not to anyone specific but to those who have a problem with Wal-Mart.

The specific neighorhood mentioned in the story is blighted, and has no "mom and pop" stores.

Would you rather have a run down EMPTY city block, that generates no revenue, produces no jobs, drains cty resources, is a draw to crime, and slowly decays, OR would you rather have a Wal-Mart?

Your choice. Me? Wal-Mart. Their prices are better than most in town, they generally have what I need, and they don't frown on me carrying concealed.

If there is a specialty store that carries the merchandise I need at a reasonable price, I will shop there, otherwise, Wal-Mart is fine.

For those that don't like Wal-Mart and are on active duty, please show why you should shop at a commissary or an AAFES facility.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not in the military, therefore my issues with Walmart are more complicated.

First of all, ever since they opened the Walmarts in our area (we have FIVE within a 15 mile radius of Antelope Valley, CA), it has used the line that they will do all the street improvements and not pass on the cost on to local tax payers. They have screwed us over on ALL FIVE contracts.

Next, their medical benefits program forks the bulk of medical costs onto the tax payers.

Next, my nephew works for them and he is complaining that he has to hold down three jobs in order to make ends meet, and he still doesn't get enough medical benefits to keep from having to rely on the tax payers to cover medical costs.

My nephew makes more in the military at entry level than what Walmart pays. He busted his butt for Walmart to move up the ranks over a five year period and they never did move him up.

Locally, the Walmarts here drew in more poor families and as tax payers, we have had to fork out for them to live on the public dole.

And finally, mom and pop stores DID go out of business.

Those are a few of my reasons.

On the more political side: I am a Southern California Retail Clerk, retired and I don't like Walmart not giving their clerks a vote of whether they join a union. If an employee even looks like they might want to join a union, Walmart fires them-- And I think that's wrong.

Those are just a few reasons I don't like Walmart.

[HomeschoolrsRUs]

[ QUOTE ]
Rhino said:
[ QUOTE ]
HomeschoolrsRUs said:
......I don't get paid for what I do......

[/ QUOTE ]
Not in dollars maybe, but you're still paid, sometimes in riches far beyond the value of any monetary fortune.

[/ QUOTE ]

Awww Rhino, thank you so kindly! Believe me, the value of my salary far exceeds any monetary rewards. I'd rather be striving to mold and shape my children into productive, positive, involved citizens than work for someone else only to produce a paycheck.

I only used that phrase because, as it has been pointed out to me so frequently in my neck of the woods, that since I don't generate a paycheck within the family dynamic, I am unable to claim it as my hard-earned bucks too. (heavy sarcasm added).

[Rink]

What kind of cream is it? whats the name and brand that carries it?

[Rink]

well i can sniffle around, since I live further east I might be able to get it cheaper for you.

[Gone_with_the_Wind]

[ QUOTE ]
kitten said:
see I have had the opposite from a guy I went to high school with. He got hired and says he gets pretty good benifits, medical and dental ect. He also got bumped from working cashier to supervisor in about a month and he is now the assistant store manager at the wal-mart here and in just about one year of working there.
He loves it there and so do most of the other employees.
I also don't know about you but trying to go to school and raise two kids I don't have the money to shop much anywhere. My son has eczeme and there is only one cream that works for him that he does not get a reaction to, and wal-mart and walgreens are the only two stores in the portland, vancouver area that carry it and walgreens charges $7.00 plus tax and at wal-mart I get the same bottle for under $5.00 plus tax so about $6.00 instead of $8.00 and I can not afford that two dollar difference that may be the difference in my son getting huggies diapers or cheap diapers that cause him to severely break out, since he has very sensitive skin.
Not to mention there is about a three dollar price difference in his huggies compare to fred meyers and other stores in this area.

[/ QUOTE ]



[ QUOTE ]
kitten said: see I have had the opposite from a guy I went to high school with. He got hired and says he gets pretty good benifits, medical and dental ect.

[/ QUOTE ]

They don't have consistent policies for their employees. That's why Walmart should allow its employees to join a union if they want without the threat of firing them. In a union, you work up the ranks according to seniority. If a union member isn't performing up to par entry level, they are either fired within the first 90 days of employment, or they are bumped up the ranks with the eventual goal of being considered for management.

At Walmart, that means nothing to them and they don't give their employees a choice of whether to join a union. At Walmart, the employee can mark time forever and never go anywhere, never moving up the ranks. They fire their employees immediately if they even suspect they are associated with a union.

[ QUOTE ]
kitten said: He got hired and says he gets pretty good benifits, medical and dental ect.

[/ QUOTE ]

With the tax payer picking up the balance of his medical (especially at entry level--management level benefits are better), he wouldn't have cared who paid his bills as long as his bills got paid. If your friend is management level, he's getting better benefits than entry level workers are.

My nephew happened to care who paid for his benefits and he didn't want the tax payer picking up the balance nor have the hospital/clinic by slight of hand slip his charges onto another persons bill. They do that. They'll slip charges onto someone else's bill in order to collect. My daughter was a hospital insurance biller and they did it all the time.

After five years and no management prospects, he quit, and joined the Coast Guard where he made more money at entry level than he did at Walmart, then moved very quickly up to chopper mechanic. He can now pay his bills without working two other part time jobs, his housing is cheaper, he shops at the commissary so his groceries are cheaper, and he has medical benefits.

It's much better for him.

If I had a choice of where to buy that cream and it was between Walmart and Walgreens, I shop WalGREENS (the two are not associated). I shop there all the time.

[Wyatt_Junker]

[ QUOTE ]
it is called DermaRest for Eczema

[/ QUOTE ]

Just use some cheap ripple or Thunderbird and a bit of sand paper. Pour the hobo juice liberally across infected area and work it in with a low abrasive. Works for me. No shit and no perscription.

You could also use a bench grinder, but that would ruin your entire hand.

[DesertFox]

Extra virgin olive oil.

[Wyatt_Junker]

[ QUOTE ]
DesertFox said:
Extra virgin olive oil.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whachu talking 'bout Faux?

[DesertFox]

Extra virgin olive oil. On the heartbreak of eczema.

[Rink]

LMAO! You guys are so nuts, y'know that.

methinks you both fell from a nut-nut tree!

[TheRealLobo]

[ QUOTE ]
Gone_with_the_Wind said:

I'm not in the military, therefore my issues with Walmart are more complicated.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not anymore either, but I was showing how a "monopoly" has a grip on the military shoppers, and no one seems to care about THAT.

[ QUOTE ]
First of all, ever since they opened the Walmarts in our area (we have FIVE within a 15 mile radius of Antelope Valley, CA), it has used the line that they will do all the street improvements and not pass on the cost on to local tax payers. They have screwed us over on ALL FIVE contracts.

[/ QUOTE ]

So your local government lied to you. And that's Wal-Mart's fault how?

[ QUOTE ]
Next, their medical benefits program forks the bulk of medical costs onto the tax payers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ummm, can you explain how Wal-Mart causes you to be unfairly taxed?

[ QUOTE ]
Next, my nephew works for them and he is complaining that he has to hold down three jobs in order to make ends meet, and he still doesn't get enough medical benefits to keep from having to rely on the tax payers to cover medical costs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps he's living beyond his means.

[ QUOTE ]
My nephew makes more in the military at entry level than what Walmart pays. He busted his butt for Walmart to move up the ranks over a five year period and they never did move him up.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's unusual, and may be related to your nephew, the particular Wal-Mart, or the particular manager.

[ QUOTE ]
Locally, the Walmarts here drew in more poor families and as tax payers, we have had to fork out for them to live on the public dole.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't follow that. You say that by them working, your tax base is higher?

[ QUOTE ]
And finally, mom and pop stores DID go out of business.

[/ QUOTE ]

You obviously didn't read the article or my post. I SPECIFICALLY said in this instance. There was nothing in the neighborhood to put out of business.


[ QUOTE ]

Those are a few of my reasons.

[/ QUOTE ]

You haven't convinced me

[ QUOTE ]
On the more political side: I am a Southern California Retail Clerk, retired and I don't like Walmart not giving their clerks a vote of whether they join a union. If an employee even looks like they might want to join a union, Walmart fires them-- And I think that's wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Forgive me for being blunt, but it's THEIR company, and they get to set the rules about unionization. Unions were fine when they were founded, but since then, unions have pretty much come to represent all that is evil in corporate America. In the United States, many steel plants have closed. Those that have stayed open are those that are NOT unionized.

(BTW, very few 'mom &amp; pop' operations are unionized, they also provide very little in the way of benefits, can you explain why they would be better than a Wal-Mart?)


You want to buy American...too bad. The union that insisted upon having employees paid so damn much in benefits and salary have caused companies to be unable to compete.

Screw unions...they're socialist, wasteful, and border on the criminal.

[jag]

[ QUOTE ]
TheRealLobo said: Perhaps he's living beyond his means.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh-oh, thats a very unpopular thing to say!

[HomeschoolrsRUs]

TheRealLobo said, Forgive me for being blunt, but it's THEIR company, and they get to set the rules about unionization. Unions were fine when they were founded, but since then, unions have pretty much come to represent all that is evil in corporate America.
You want to buy American...too bad. The union that insisted upon having employees paid so damn much in benefits and salary have caused companies to be unable to compete.
Screw unions...they're socialist, wasteful, and border on the criminal.


Bravo! My Bubba is NOT a part of the union at the School Board where he works. They (union) have done nothing but assure that lazy, unqualified workers retain their jobs, and even get moved up the ladder. The salaries are totally messed up because of the union, and REAL workers suffer. There are no more merit raises whatsoever, and it just grates when someone who DOES NOT do the job gets the same bump in pay as someone who DOES.

Right now there is an individual working in my husband's department that is charged with raping his wife and one of his wife's daughters (not his child) -- and remember they are working for the SCHOOL SYSTEM!! Reason he is not "on leave without pay"?? He is a union employee! So they just moved him from the school he was working at (where the wife's daughter just happens to go to school) and put him to work in the Warehouse (wear my hubby works).

My family has owned their own businesses for as long as I can remember (on my side, not Bubba's). They have done their best to be fair and insisted on the best hiring and employee practices. Unions come in, and forget the employer/employee relationship -- it's gimme, gimme, gimme Employer, but don't expect anything from the employee or we'll slap you with a discrimination charge or worse.
I'm with you RealLobo -- unions have almost destroyed the work ethic completely. No one seems to want to work anymore, but they feel everyone esle owes them a living.

[SunnyBrook]

[ QUOTE ]
TheRealLobo said:
...Screw unions...they're socialist, wasteful, and border on the criminal.


[/ QUOTE ]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yeahthat.gif

My community chose several years ago not to let a WalMart come into town. For a small town, we have a thriving economy and a vibrant main street community. There are Walmarts within 1 hour north and 1 hour south of us. Personally, I think our local economy would have adjusted fine to the addition. As it is, those who don't want to buy at the Mom &amp; Pop stores just make a weekly/biweekly trek northward, and end up also spending money for entertainment, restaurants, and gas in the other town. (And this helps our local economy how?)

The town south of us is replacing their regular Walmart with a SuperWalmart, and most of the community there is ecstatic. The community relationship with Walmart is very friendly. Walmart provides good jobs with benefits for entry level workers and senior citizens and great opportunity for advancement/promotion. A boy I graduated with began working there in high school and was picked to do a modeling photo shoot for their sales brochure. From there, he was launched into modeling as a career and has travelled the world. This was a kid who nobody would have ever dreamed would become a model, but WalMart helped him to discover hidden talents and to have the self-confidence to succeed. This was a minority student--nice guy, average, not someone who ever excelled in any area at school. My experience with WalMart has been largely positive.

Of course, I live in an area of the country that is not heavily unionized. Most people here are thrilled to keep it that way.

[Wyatt_Junker]

[ QUOTE ]
Forgive me for being blunt, but it's THEIR company, and they get to set the rules about unionization. Unions were fine when they were founded, but since then, unions have pretty much come to represent all that is evil in corporate America. In the United States, many steel plants have closed. Those that have stayed open are those that are NOT unionized.


[/ QUOTE ]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yeahthat.gif

Nothing wrong with blunt. Blunt is good.

[Rink]

Depends on what 'Kind' of Blunt you are referring to.

[Gone_with_the_Wind]

Screw unions...they're socialist, wasteful, and border on the criminal.

OK, then, I'm a socialist, wasteful, and border on criminal, because I belong to a union.

Tough shit. Is that "blunt" enough for you?

[Rink]

Well like i said, there are good unions and there are bad unions, you read about and hear more on the 'bad' unions than you do the good ones because bad sells in the news much better and makes for more salacious stories that inflame the people against unions.

same goes for non-unionized labor.

you can cite the evils of what unions have done and compare them to the evils that non-unionized labor has been perpetrated on the workers.

It aint cut &amp; dry i tell ya, but in some instances unions DO serve a purpose, its just a matter of making sure that union doesnt get taken over by thugs and corruption.

Thats the tricky sticky part of it all.

people have suffered from union thugs, and other people have suffered from not being protected by unions from abuse by unscrupulous businesses.

One thing to note.

My old man did not like unions, what did he do? He worked almost every day of his life from childhood, he worked on holidays, weekends you name it, he worked them, and what did he get out of it?

He never ever had a vacation in his life and he died never reaping any of the rewards of what he worked for, all he ever did was pay bills and incurr debts because he was a self-employed businessman, he could not afford to take on help because he could not carry anyone elses insurance or even pay them, hence he did without and suffered for it with two herniated disks in his backside and health problems up the wazoo that affected him, but he could not afford the help because of that fact.

[Timberwolf]

[ QUOTE ]
Gone_with_the_Wind said:
Screw unions...they're socialist, wasteful, and border on the criminal.

OK, then, I'm a socialist, wasteful, and border on criminal, because I belong to a union.

Tough shit. Is that "blunt" enough for you?

[/ QUOTE ]
He wasn't referring to YOU, but to the organization in general...to those who run the unions, specifically. You cannot deny the fact that unions have become so corrupt that they no longer serve their members, but only to line the pockets of those in the elected hierarchy.

One of the major reasons why goods cost so much in this country is the outrageous wages paid to union employees (yes, yes, OSHA, EPA, other regulations and taxes also contribute). Think about it...when the cost of production goes up, what do ya think the company is gonna do, absorb the increase? HELL NO!! It will raise its prices to AT LEAST make up for the increased expenses.

The minimum wage is the major contributor as union wages are set according to it. That's why dimocraps scratch, kick and scream about increasing the minimum wage. It's not to benefit "working families" /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif...only about 12% of the workforce works for MW (and the vast majority of them are teenagers and retired folk looking to supplement their SS). It is to boost union wages...make no mistake.

[Faithful_Servant]

GWTW, I work in an industry where only the strong survive (wood remanufacturing - we're the suppliers for the door, window, and moulding industry). In the 16 years I've been here, I've seen a lot of companies fall by the way-side while we've been expanding our market share. There are a lot of reasons for this, but one of the most important has been the Management/Labor relationship. I've spent many years on both sides of this relationship and have seen the benefits of not having a union stick their noses into it. On the other hand, I've hired people who have come from Union shops and they universally say the same thing, that within union shops there is an adversarial relationship between Management and Labor and not a cooperative one. The people I've hired who were formerly in union shops generally turned out to be second-rate employees. There were exceptions, but most were whiny, slow and expected to only do the job in front of them, regardless of how the balance of the work-flow was happening. (BTW, one of the best people I ever worked with was ex-union and his opion of unions was "Just say no"). Nothing personal, but my experience with people from union shops has been over-whelmingly negative.

When I was younger, I worked in construction and we loved "Prevailing Wage" jobs. Do you know what these are?? They're contracts for gov't jobs and they required that we get paid 1 1/2 to 2 times what we normally got paid in order to keep non-union contractors from under-cutting union contractors. Do you know where this extra money comes from? Your taxes, my taxes, Lobo's taxes, etc. This is due to the unions influence in gov't.

Is it any wonder that people no longer like unions, the influence they have in our gov't, the higher prices they force on the consumer, and the out-right graft and corruption that is at their foundation.

A union is nothing more than legalized black-mail. Yes, they will negotiate, but behind every negotiation is the underlying threat of striking.

[Gone_with_the_Wind]

I don't doubt you are genuine in your summations. I understand people who are against unions. But I also think painting all unions and people who belong to them with a broad brush is risky at best.

My husband and I put in our time (33 years), we are retired, have never lived high on the hog nor taken advantage of the companies we've worked for, nor committed crimes, nor blackmailed anybody, etc. We've paid our dues both in and out of the union, and we still support the union we belong to.

Painting either side (unions and corporations, including the people who work for them) with a broad brush is risky at best.

The original question was about WalMart. I stated my reasons for not liking WalMart and I stand by them. To make judgements about my nephew is getting too personal. To make judgements about my husband and me is too personal. To paint every issue and entity mentioned in this thread with the same color and a broad brush is going overboard, IMO.

If I got my panties in a wad every time someone insulted unions and their members, I'd be sitting on a wad of panties the height of Mount Everest.

[TheYellowDart]

Unions=Good

WalMart=Bad

Edited out by DesertFox

DEAL WITH IT!

[Gone_with_the_Wind]

Who left the door open and the dog in?

You're the kind of lame-brained crap that some here pin on unions.

Guess the door was opened by me and you're the piece of crap that walked in.

My apologies for leaving the door open.

You, TYD, can now /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/stfu.gif

[Incident_command]

[ QUOTE ]
TheYellowDart said:
Unions=Good

WalMart=Bad

***EDITED OUT***

DEAL WITH IT!

[/ QUOTE ]

The preceding opinions were those of Senator Kerry and do not necessarily reflect those of FC, their moderators, or anyone else with a lick of common sense.

[Faithful_Servant]

Don't mean to paint with such a broad brush, but it's the only one I have at the moment. My apologies if I have offended you in any way.

BTW re: TheYellowDart
Thanks.
What does STFU mean? I think that I can figure out the FU part, but I'm stuck on the ST.

[Incident_command]

S= shut
T= the
F= you got that one
U= up

[Faithful_Servant]

thx IC.
Probably not one I'll use, but it's good to have options. My father always told me that profanity is best used in small measures. People hear too much of it and they become immune to it. Use it very infrequently and as a result when you do use it, you get people's complete attention.

[Rhino]

[ QUOTE ]
TheRealLobo said:
I'm not anymore either, but I was showing how a "monopoly" has a grip on the military shoppers, and no one seems to care about THAT.

[/ QUOTE ]
Don't use AAFES, but we shop at the commisary for a very simple reason, price. That's the same reason I shop at Wal-Mart. Nothing wrong with saving money.

[Rhino]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic1.gif

Didn't there used to be a porn star named Kitten?

No reflection on you of course.

[TheRealLobo]

[ QUOTE ]
Gone_with_the_Wind said:
Screw unions...they're socialist, wasteful, and border on the criminal.

OK, then, I'm a socialist, wasteful, and border on criminal, because I belong to a union.

Tough shit. Is that "blunt" enough for you?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nah, "screw you" would have been blunt enough, but you addressed none of my points and showed how well you can debate the issues. To be honest, you NEVER gave a valid reason for not liking a Wal-Mart and I gave you at least 3 reasons why Wal-Mart is good.

Unions suck. My grandfather was in a union, my mother was in a union, my father was in a union, 2 of my brothers were in unions. They all worked in steel mills in Pittsburgh. Too damn bad they all had to find work checking out people at Foodland, asking people if they wanted "fries with that", and eventually moving to other states to find work in other careers.

The mills all closed because they couldn't compete. Paying my brother Ed $26 per hour at entry level to spray water onto hot slag is ridiculous.

No wonder they couldn't compete.

Yeah, I guess I should change my mind and say "Unions are NOT scum sucking, bottom feeding, money grubbing organizations" because someone on an internet bulletin board I frequent tells me "tough shit"...or maybe not.

BTW, YOU would only be "socialist, wasteful, and border on the criminal" if you are part of a union leadership, but to be frank, I really don't know you well enough to judge. However, if you'd like to wear that mantle, you're welcome to.

[TheRealLobo]

[ QUOTE ]
Gone_with_the_Wind said:
I don't doubt you are genuine in your summations. I understand people who are against unions. But I also think painting all unions and people who belong to them with a broad brush is risky at best.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did I do that? Oh, how embarrassing. I don't SEEM to remember saying anything about 'peole who belong to them'. I do think the people who belong to them are misguided, (how's THAT for a broad brush?) but do you know where YOUR union dues are going?

[ QUOTE ]
My husband and I put in our time (33 years), we are retired, have never lived high on the hog nor taken advantage of the companies we've worked for, nor committed crimes, nor blackmailed anybody, etc. We've paid our dues both in and out of the union, and we still support the union we belong to.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you sure your union leadership hasn't? (i.e. never lived high on the hog nor taken advantage of the companies we've worked for, nor committed crimes, nor blackmailed anybody, etc)

[ QUOTE ]
Painting either side (unions and corporations, including the people who work for them) with a broad brush is risky at best.

[/ QUOTE ]

Name a single union that hasn't started an adversarial relationship with management.

[ QUOTE ]
The original question was about WalMart. I stated my reasons for not liking WalMart and I stand by them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Shame you never gave a valid reason though. Did you actually read the rest of my post, or did you get all bent out of shape about my statements about unions and ignore the other points?

[ QUOTE ]
To make judgements about my nephew is getting too personal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where did I make a judgment about your nephew? That's what a qualifier like "PERHAPS" means. You want to take it personal, have at it.

[ QUOTE ]
To make judgements about my husband and me is too personal. To paint every issue and entity mentioned in this thread with the same color and a broad brush is going overboard, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, we already know what your "O" is, but like you said, "tough shit".

[ QUOTE ]
If I got my panties in a wad every time someone insulted unions and their members, I'd be sitting on a wad of panties the height of Mount Everest.


[/ QUOTE ]

Gee, looks like you've made a fine start, my guess is they're pretty wadded now. But, "tough shit".

You still haven't explained how Wal-Mart refused to fix your road, raised your taxes, or put empty buildings out of business.

[Gone_with_the_Wind]

TRL,

You sure made an emotional investment on everything I've said in this thread. I, however, have not made any emotional investment in YOU. Therefore, I don't give a rat's ass about what you think.

[Gone_with_the_Wind]

[ QUOTE ]
Faithful_Servant said:
Don't mean to paint with such a broad brush, but it's the only one I have at the moment. My apologies if I have offended you in any way.

BTW re: TheYellowDart
Thanks.
What does STFU mean? I think that I can figure out the FU part, but I'm stuck on the ST.

[/ QUOTE ]

No apologies necessary.

[TheRealLobo]

[ QUOTE ]
TheYellowDart said:
Unions=Good

WalMart=Bad

Edited out by DesertFox

DEAL WITH IT!

[/ QUOTE ]

Awww what'd he say, what'd he say? Did he really tell me to STFU?

I hope he's still lurking.

I'm touring the country, and currently in Wichita Falls Texas. I'll be passing through OK, CO, KS, SD, and ND within the next month. If any of those are within a state or two of you, let me know, and I'll be happy to drop by so you can shut me the F up. Bring all your friend though, and pack a lunch. Even better, if you let me know which state you're in, (other than confusion or denial) I'll be glad to come and visit. Be prepared to shut me up you lowlife puke.

[Rink]

Hey man if you git into North Dakota and go through Williston, you'll be going through the very town my mother was born in.

[Gone_with_the_Wind]

Glad you asked. Before I retired I worked for Blue Cross of Southern California the medical insurance fraud department processing Medi-Cal (State claims) department.

Every insurance company has an insurance fraud department. Most insurance claims are processed by computer. To keep it simple, and for the purpose of this thread, I'm referring to medical.

Every diagnosis and every procedure has a diagnostic and procedure codes. Insurance claims have certain "flags" built into the system to sift out irregularities. Let's say a woman is diagnosed with pneumonia. "Pneumonia" has a primary diagnostic code, secondary one and so forth. These codes are picked up by computer. Every possible procedure code having to do with that diagnosis is also entered into the computer. Most mistakes or out right fraud in some cases are picked up by the computer and the claim is sent back to the biller for reprocessing. About 1/2 of those come back in the form of a second billing to the insurance company. The charges in question in most of those cases and left off because they were bogus charges in the first place. Either the hospital slipped those charges from one patient's bill to another and forgot to match the diagnosis with the procedure or something similar.

The form is reprocessed again and again, each time by computer when finally it goes to the fraud detective (a real live human being). A patient can skip all that by going straight to the insurance company's fraud department with their hospital, clinic or doctor's bill and supplying them with the questionable data.

If the patient owes say, 20% of the medical bill and they can't afford to pay, it automatically goes to the State and the State pays it in most cases through the States welfare system. The money that comes from that fund are paid for by taxes. The hospital will collect in some way, I promise you. If not your insurance company, then you. If not you, then the state.

There are millions and millions of these claims paid every year by the state or shifted to someone elses hospital bill onto their insurance company. And so on.

That's only one way the costs are foisted onto the tax payers. There are many other ways, but I won't go into grand detail here because it's nearly 4:30 in the morning, I have limited use of my right hand, and a limited time I am willing to focus on a computer screen.

[Timberwolf]

[ QUOTE ]
Rink said:
Hey man if you git into North Dakota and go through Williston, you'll be going through the very town my mother was born in.

[/ QUOTE ]
Cool!! Problem is that's all the way west...I think he's coming up I-29 which about as far east as one can get and still be in ND.

I've only been to Willistion once in my life (about 30 years ago)...nice little city/big town. It really was booming during the oil days, but the entire western part of the state has really suffered since the oil rigs all shut down.

[Rink]

yea some of those oil rigs belonged to my family on my mom's dad's side

they still pump a pittance out in ordewr to keep the perpetual lease going.

Ever see the name Olson, you'll know they're prolly related somewhere to my mom's dad's side heh Very prolific swede/norwegians!

[Gone_with_the_Wind]

Yeah...well...tell the Mrs. Olson we could use some relief on our gas prices! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Forget the coffee!!!

[Rink]

lol dont blame the Mrs Olsons, blame the big companies that have the lease as long as they continue to pump a little bit out every year, even though they've actively done their best to cheat my relatives out of money and had to go to court to get back pay they 'neglected' to pay for the oil they pumped.

Its like pullin teeth to get em to let go of their money.

Amerada-Hoess

[Timberwolf]

Actually, the reason our gas prices are so high is that we're unable to refine enough to meet demand.

Thanks, once again, to the f*'n environazis and the dipshits in Congress and the various statehouses that listen to them.

[2Cent]

From the article: "....Wal-Mart should be made to pay "sustainable" or "self-sufficiency" wages, a popular idea with the left, which holds that wages should be based on an area's cost of living."

I guess these guys skipped Economics 101. Sure it's about the Unions wanting to keep their wages high, but it's also about the push toward socialism. And to top it off, all these idiots are achieving in the end - via court battles, etc., is driving the price of goods up, thereby making the 'working man' worse off.
But they knew that.

--------------

GWTW, I'm a little confused. How is it Wal-Mart's fault that people don't pay their medical bills?

[DesertFox]

She won't be answering.

[Kathy29]

There are a few Wal Marts around here. One was going to be built in Inglewood but the usual suspects complained. One of the complaints was that Wal Mart provided no insurance and cheated the employees and generally treated them badly. A radio station asked Wal Mart employees and former employees to call in and talk about how badly they were treated. The employees and former employees did call, but it wasn't about how bad they were treated, it was how good they were treated. People did call in about how badly Wal Mart treated employees, but those people had never worked for Wal Mart, nor did they know anyone who did. They all "heard" about it.

My half sister just got a job at a Wal Mart in Georgia. She has insurance! She has benefits! She just started there a month or so ago. What's with the tales of woe!

Those who complain about Wal Mart simply don't like success. 30 years ago it was malls, ten years ago it was Microsoft. So,Wal Mart runs the little overpriced mom and pops out of business. No they don't. The mom and pops are overpriced and that runs them out of business. Nevertheless, the overpriced mom and pops don't need to be run out of business because people will always go to them. There are times when someone just doesn't want to run around a behemoth like Wal Mart to get the one thing they want. They like having the store owner say "Hello there Jack, how's Jane?"

Build a better mouse trap and the world will beat a path to your door. All the mice will sue you, but you'll have a well worn path.

[DesertFox]

All I know is, I applauded when Walmart showed up and put K-Mart outta biz. K-Mart had gotten arrogant and lazy and quit even trying to provide customer service or even to be polite. You'd spot a worker and head towards her to ask where something was. She'd see you and walk quickly away from you, clearly trying to hide. That happened to me several times before I quit going to K-Mart for anything. Someone subsequently told me that the workers were told to do that because it kept customers in the store longer, and the longer they were in the store, the likelier to buy something. And don't get me started on the long lines in K-Mart.

[Bluemoon_Rising]

All I know is, I applauded when Walmart showed up and put K-Mart outta biz. K-Mart had gotten arrogant and lazy and quit even trying to provide customer service or even to be polite. You'd spot a worker and head towards her to ask where something was. She'd see you and walk quickly away from you, clearly trying to hide. That happened to me several times before I quit going to K-Mart for anything. Someone subsequently told me that the workers were told to do that because it kept customers in the store longer, and the longer they were in the store, the likelier to buy something. And don't get me started on the long lines in K-Mart.

Noted the same problem with K-Mart, and quit that chain several years before it got into trouble. Wal-Mart's culture is 180^o opposite of that crap.

The issue came up once at a manager's meeting: I objected to a certain proposed policy -- the idea of which was to "entrap" our customers by employing very much the same sort of tactic. I referred to it as the K-Mart ploy. I exposed the fact that I used to shop at K-Mart for ordinary, walk-in-the-park needs, but quit the chain in favor of Wal-Mart in response to K-Mart's horrible customer service. For a moment there was dead silence at the table, and then the proposee snidely remarked: "So you shop Wal-Mart and the like?"

Before I could respond, my boss and the owner of the company, replied, "You bet your ass he does, just like my wife shops at Wal-Mart for our family's general needs. I didn't build this business by squandering my money on fancy junk, and we ain't K-Mart."

Insulting the boss' wife is never a good move.

LOL!

[DesertFox]

LOL

:claps:

[Timberwolf]

...and I'll bet HE shops at Wal-Mart now, too!! LOL

As for myself, I support locally owned businesses when I can and shop at the super-savers when I must. If I need something and the locally owned store isn't open, Wal-Mart is 24/7.

[DeclinetoState]

The only legitimate way to put Wal-Mart out of business is to do what they do better than the way they do it. That will be a lot more easily said than done.

[DesertFox]

Yep.

Thomas Sowell had an article a few years ago where he showed that capitalism works because it gives people what they want -- both the buyer and the seller. That's exactly what Walmart does.

[Jester21]

I absolutely loathe Wal-Mart. Why? I used to work there.

Last couple years of high school, first year of college. I have no problems with WM's success (hey, if they can get away with it, more power to them), but in my experience they do treat their people poorly. In the 2-3 years I worked there:

-I was told I wouldn't be allowed to go to my high school graduation unless I worked 14 straight days before and 7 straight days after. Seriously-I asked for a day off to go to my grad, and they used it as a bargaining chip against me. I worked my ass off there, and was always willing to do it (I did end up working all those days), so to use that against me I thought was Mickey Mouse.

-it was chronically understaffed; I'd take my 15 minute break and was spoken to my manager on several occasions because my section was 'unstaffed while a customer needed help.'

-never (not even once) supported me when dealing with a customer: Part of the time I was there I worked in the Photo Lab. We were told that we were not allowed to copy professional pictures as that was a violation of copyright law. They even brought in a copy of the statute and posted it for us to read. But when I'd tell customers that I was unable to copy a professional picture for them, they'd complain to management, and I'd be forced to copy it. I was 16 years old when I started working there: I didn't give a flying fuk whether Wal-Mart got fined for copying copyrighted work. The ONLY reason I'd tell people I couldn't copy something was because I was told to.

-several times I caught them underpaying me. It got to the point where I'd watch very closely the number of hours I worked, and work out what I should be paid beforehand. For all I know, all of those instances could have been an honest mistake. But funny that they never overpayed me....

-in the Photo Lab we dealt with chemicals that could be dangerous if exposed to over a long period of time. We were legally required to wear rubber gloves, aprons, and eye goggles when dealing with these chemicals. I know this because it said that in WM's training manuals they made me read. So when we asked for new gloves to replace the old ones with holes in them, I was surprised when they initially said no. Then when we asked again, we were told we had to fill out the appropriate paperwork, to make sure it got expensed to the right department. I decided just to buy the gloves.

-they threatened to fire me because my Department Manager told the Store Manager I was working for a competitor. He sat me down in his office and laid down the law with me, demanding to know if I was spying on how we operated. It was only after I told him I'd started working at a BANK that he calmed down. I think then he realized that my Department Manager was a little unhinged. Which brings me to:

-regular verbal abuse from my Dept Manager. She would scream about anything and everything, poked fun at pimples I had (I was a fricking teenager! Everybody had 'em!), tell me I was a worthless employee, etc. She went on stress leave EVERY SINGLE YEAR I worked there.

There are more instances; these are just the ones I remember off the top of my head, and I haven't worked there in years. In my experience, the only people who are thrilled to work at WM are the ones who are too stupid to realize they're being taken advantage of. I'm not exaggerating; there are a lot of dumb people working there.

And I was not a 'problem' employee. I worked my ass off there, I was ALWAYS polite to customers, I only spoke with management about an issue I was having if it was very important (like they weren't paying me for the hours I'd worked).

Now, I don't have a problem with Wal-Mart's success-I don't think the top executives are actively trying to skirt around laws and regulations they may be subject to. They've followed a business model that has paid off exponentially well for them. More power to them.

And I realize that my individual experiences are not exactly 'horror' stories. But overall, it wasn't a pleasant place to work.

[DoctorDoom]

And that is known as anecdotal evidence, personal experiences being presented in order to establish a general argument. One cannot condemn the corporation because of a few employees who are assholes or of one mismanaged store.

<hr>
Re mom & pop stores vs Wal*Mart or any large chain, the major difference is economy of scale. If M&P buy a case of product X and Wal*Mart buys 100,000 cases, which purchaser will get the best per-unit price from the manufacturer?

This same effect applies to M&P grocery stores vs supermarket chains, M&P hardware stores vs Home Depot, etc.

When malls appear that anchor on huge stores such as Wal*Mart, Target, etc., the little guys prosper. How? A: by addressing needs that the Big'Uns don't cover. In my area, there's an open-style mall that contains a Wal*Mart, a Home Depot, a Staples and a Price Chopper supermarket. There are also a dozen small shops, all occupied and all thriving. They do it by addressing markets that complement rather than compete with the big stores.

E.g., if a person wants arts & crafts stuff, WM has a basic selection, but Michaels carries a full line. WM stocks the usual array of music and videos, but Coconuts down the sidewalk offers a far wider selection. The other stores similarly meet needs and wants that the big guys can't.

Any small store that that is intended to compete with the megastores will lose. However, if the little guys fill the niches that WM et al can't or don't want to address, they will survive.

[Rink]

Hey Doc unfortunately in today's corporate world they do NOT treat their employees good anymore, in fact it seems standard practices of many major companies to shit on their employees as much as they can in order to sqeeze another dollar out from their work.

Not just walmart but many other corporations are doin it nowadays.

The days where employers treated their employees decently and did their best to make their employees happy so that they's stay and be loyal employees is gone, also gone is the loyal employee.

My old man's day & age and world of business practices is dead today.

[Wyatt_Junker]

Hey Doc unfortunately in today's corporate world they do NOT treat their employees good anymore, in fact it seems standard practices of many major companies to shit on their employees as mucch as they can in order to sqeeze another dollar out from their work.

And that's the very definition of good management, payroll being the biggest headache, and 'efficiency' is translated by the paycheck grabber and clockwatcher as 'hey man, cool yer heels boss, yer harshing my mellow.'


Not just walmart but many other corporations are doin it nowadays.


Trying to make a buck? I would hope so. If they are not, they shouldn't be in business.


The days where emploers treated their employees decently and did their best to make their employees happy so that they's stay and be loyal employees is gone, also gone is the loyal employee.

Bullshit. There's plenty of companies that go above and beyond what is considered morale boosting standard practice and from what I've found, the company is typically the one providing the most extra-dollar incentives. And the employees who do bitch, ususally do so from their own lack of character. Is that to say that all businesses are as I describe? No. But the majority are.


My old man's day & age and world of business practices is dead today.

And hopefully the unions respond in kind. That is to say, die.

[Rink]

Um Wyatt my old man was NEVER Union, he tho ran his own business and he took damn good care of the few employees he could afford.

Unions never factored into just the simple fact of treating your employees right.

Many corporations have rules they 'supposed' to abide by with their employees, those rules determine what time off those employees have, what amount of vacation time they can have and when to apply for time off for those vacations and more, many of those companies do NOT abide by their own rules, but they expect and hold their employees to the letter of those rules.

Those companies see fit to screw the rules the moment an employees has the time accrued to have their few days off (vacation) after years of working for that company, or have the company play mind games with their employees, yanking their times of work, how long they work, and at the LAST minute after months in advance notice of a vacation, that said employees HAVE to give (because the company rules state so) are screwed out of their vacation time, some a day before they go, AFTER they make travel plans and more...

That isnt good business practices, I think thats horrid business practices.

What you're advocating is a return to the sweatshops of old where people work till they drop and never get to enjoy life at all for measly bucks.

Thats what you obviously want.

PS: my old man NEVER had a vacation in his life, he never Got to enjoy the fruits of his labors.

[Incident_command]

What you're advocating is a return to the sweatshops of old where people work till they drop and never get to enjoy life at all for measly bucks.

Thats what you obviously want.
.


Nah cant agree Rink
Some US auto makers cant even fill the current positions and those opening in the near future. And working as a auto worker is a very good job. The only places those might work "sweatshops" now are overseas and mexico.

[Rink]

Not talkin bout Autoworkers am refering to mainly retail. I KNOW Autoworkers unions have that locked up tight with 'join union or no go on getting a job' type thing.

Just many employees of many a retailer company have put in Years worth of work, some savin their companys asses by sticking to them when nobody else did only to get crapped on by that very self-same company afterwards.

[LifeOfBrian]

I tend to avoid Wal Mart if possible. For no other reason than I prefer to support local businesses. I'm not a big fan of unions. If you don't like your working conditions, get another job elsewhere. If there are no other jobs available, get yourself educated/trained in something else and/or move to where the jobs are.

However, this (http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/77/walmart.html) article makes an interesting point; if one prefers manufacturing or blue-collar vocations, one could be shopping one's self out of a job by dropping those hard-earned samolians into the Wal-Mart coffers.

[Incident_command]

Rink its not about unions on this, the fact is any production job has a tough time being filled by americans.

[Rhino]

I know several Wal-Mart employees who are quite satisfied. I knew one who was very dissatisfied, but that was his first job out of high school. Now that he has worked elsewhere, he wants to go back to Wal-Mart.

[DesertFox]

I never first-hand knew a dissatisfied Walmart employee.

'Course, I never knew first-hand a satisfied Walmart employee.

[Rink]

Rink its not about unions on this, the fact is any production job has a tough time being filled by americans.

I wonder why when Americans have to compete in an unfair market with the illegals who CAN work at these jobs and make it with the low wages, wheras the Americans who have to work two to three jobs in order to make it.... why? Because those selfsame highly competitive, in-demand illegals who will work for a whole lot less can and do live on America's Welfare system while working for pennies and are able to live good.

Food stamps, welfare, SSI, Apartment rent assistance and more. they CAN get it but we Americans cant because the illegals are paid under the table and/or lie and more...

Thats why its hard to fill those jobs with Americans, because the pay isnt enough to be able to live on anymore when taxed and having your rent, bills and cost of living go through the roof.

[DoctorDoom]

Unions never factored into just the simple fact of treating your employees right.Unions exist to drive a wedge between labor and management, and to screw the latter as often as possible. Almost three decades of my 38 years in industry were in the union. They maintain the "us vs them" mindset. The company cannot reward talent, initiative and productivity. Promotions are by seniority, even if the senior man is a total slug whose workday is getting by on the bare minimum of output and not doing things that can get him canned. The company would rather not open a position for which union members can apply than to take whatever the union allows them to have. They instead open the position as salaried exempt (not union-eligible) and bypass union employees. I've seen it happen several times.

[Rink]

Doc SOME unions are good ones that help keep some corrupt busunesses from taking advantage of their workers unfairly and trating them like vassals fit to be weorked to death.

Not All unions are good but then again not ALL unions are bad, just depends on how they are and the level of corruption verses the actual real helpful honest advocacy on behalf of the workers.

Had it not been for unions we still would be working in sweatshops and treated like animals.

The prob is the day Unions got wind of the power that money could bring to em is the day many unions went bad.

But I WILL reiterate not ALL unions are bad k.

[Rhino]

But I WILL reiterate not ALL unions are bad k.Neither are all businesses.

[Rink]

thats also true but it seems many are catching this new stance towards their workers and losing those old ethics that made many businesses strong with worker loyalty.

And thats sad to see.

On both sides of the aisle Businesses and unions.

[DoctorDoom]

I'll grant that the days of companies with a one-big-family atmosphere are by and large extinct. And there are probably a few cases where unions serve some purpose other than as PACs and fund-raisers for DemocRATs.

There was a time when "company towns" were common. One large employer practically owned the town, and in return it provided housing and other benefits for the employees and the town. Those days are gone.

[Rink]

Well the point I'm sayin is the kind of ethics my old man employed in his small Fuel business and the attitude he had conducting his business is I think also dead.

[Rhino]

You have limited exposure. So do I, but I see that attitude alive and well on a daily basis, both in large and small businesses.

[Rink]

Well Rhino from what I'm Currently getting from my job searches is more on the lines of, this new ethic concerning employees.

[Rhino]

I'm just saying it isn't dead, not that you won't run into it.

[Rink]

Hope it isnt dead, just seems like it so far from what I've found... Hope I run into the old style ethic cuz if I did they'd have an employee for life fer shure!!!