Anit Semetic EU at it again

[Patriot Heart]

Why does the EU hate Israel so much? Is it pure anti Semeticism (sp?) or is it really because they are our close allies?
~Patriot Heart~

EU: Israel Violating International Law

Jul 22, 7:50 AM (ET)

By STEVE WEIZMAN

TEL AVIV, Israel (AP) - During a visit to the Jewish state, EU foreign policy chief Javier Solana on Thursday said Israel's West Bank separation barrier violates international law.

Solana's comments came just two days after the European Union infuriated Israeli leaders by supporting a U.N. General Assembly resolution calling on Israel to tear down the barrier in compliance with a world court ruling.

"A country has the right to build a fence on its own territory but we believe the route of this fence is contrary to international law," Solana said during a joint news conference with Israeli Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom.

Moments earlier, Shalom said "the government and people of Israel are deeply disappointed by Europe's decision to vote with the Palestinians and against the fence."
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040722/D83VQK0G1.html

[eric]

Obviously, criticism of Israeli policy is anti-semitism!

[Patriot Heart]

Protecting themselves violates international law? What law? Is that the one that allows equal opportunity extermination of Jews?
Patriot Heart

[Rink]

What about the UN's equating Zionism with that of Racism?

Zionism is Jewish nationality, is israel the ONLY nation with nationalistic roots?

if their nationalism is so racist, then what would one say of the Arabs?

That 'fence' has helped stop the suicide bombings.

It in effect ended the intefadah, and the 'palestinians' know this, and thats why the Euroweenies are doin their level best to dismantle what ended a racist hateful act, people strapping bombs onto themselves and maiming and killing men, women and children and even babies.

Thats ok? but like patriot Heart stated, self protection is against International law? but suicide bombings isnt?

Camon the EU and the UN are arab racist stooges!!

[eric]

The big issue with the fence is that it is built in Palestinian territory. Israel can (legally) build as many walls as they like in Israel.

It would be like Mexico building a wall from Northern California across to Texas to defend itself.

[Rink]

Prove its Palestinian 'Territory'

What matters irregardless of what territory its in, it has stopped the killings.

I guess you'd rather Jews keep on dyin just to prove a political point right?

Give the go-ahead to the Palestinians to contine the slaughter of israeli Jews, who cares if civilian men, woman children and babies get slaughtered, dont matter, the Palestinians have a Right to kill em off and drive em into the sea, after all according to the Arabs, the Palestinians have more of a right to the land of Israel than the Jews have, dont matter that the British inflated arab populations before Israel became a nation-state.

Doesnt matter that most of these 'Palestinians' are from neighboring countries and that they never bothered with the arid land untill the Israelis made a garden out of that desert, and now the Palestinians who never existed before 1948 now wants Israel.

Doesnt matter if the Palestinians have a homeland, they wont be satisfied till there isnt a Jewish state left.

Arafat had 90% of what he wanted, the only thing that he didnt get was Jerusalem, and what did he do? he refused it all, and whined his people are being 'oppressed' when in fact his own people were oppressing the Palestinian people through brutal killings of anyone suspected of 'collaboration' with Israel.

What is that but an act of a people AT WAR with Israel, as the wording should tip you off, 'Palestinians getting executed for suspected Collaboration with Israel' they dont give em a trial, they just drag em out into the street and shoot em dead.

Is that what you want?

Mob rule slaughtering not only 'Palestinians but Jews by the thousands?

Because these people will not rest till the Jews are either all dead or driven into the sea, they have stated this repeatedly.

I wholely support Israel building a fence, its a slight bit nicer than what the Palestinians would have done if the situation was reversed.

its a kinder solution that has brought peace not only to the Israeli side but also to the Palestinian side.

Yea some people are inconvenienced, but i dont see that fence slaughtering Palestinians, what would YOU do if you had neighbors killing off members of your family? would you just killem in return or build a high enough fence to keep them from killing your family members off?

How is it that you cannot see the logic in that fence?

I dont give a hoot about the 'International Community's concerns, their butts arent on the line and their people arent being slaughtered by the thousands.

The Israeli people's lives ARE on the line and they took action to stop the killings.

Keep whining.

[eric]

I'm not sure you understood my point. I didn't write that Israel shouldn't build a wall.

Prove its (sic) Palestinian 'Territory'

Have a look on a map of the Middle East.

Take the American-Mexico border. If America wants to put a barrier along the border, fine. If it wanted to put the border twenty miles south of the border, the Mexican government might complain. That's what is being discussed, not the issue of whether a wall should be built, full stop.

[Rink]

israel has a Very deep historical claim to That whole land called Israel, now i ask you, where does the 'Palestinians' fit into the History of the area?

how far back does the Palestinians go in their historical roots?

Egypt
Syria
Jordan
Iran, Iraq, and more. Real great 'Historical ties to the land of Israel right?

The British IMPORTED Arabs from all over the arab world into Israel Just before the Jewish state became a nation.

Guess what they did the moment israel became a nation, thats right, the arabs warred against Israel and LOST the territories parced out to them.

Whole kibbutzims were slaughtered by the Arabs.

And FYI The American/Mexican Border has absolutely no relevance to what is going on in israel, i dont see Mexicans being slaughtered, nor do i see Americans being slaughtered by the Mexicans just because they're Americans do you?

There is no comparisons, its like comparing apples and oranges.

[eric]

israel has a Very deep historical claim to That whole land called Israel, now i ask you, where does the 'Palestinians' fit into the History of the area?

There's the problem. The Palestinians have an equally strong case, if not stronger. However, world opinion seems to suggest that a two-state solution is preferable. Presently, the Palestinian territories are illegally occupied.

You still seem to be struggling with the point of the EU decision

"A country has the right to build a fence on its own territory but we believe the route of this fence is contrary to international law," Solana said.

I just brought up the Mexican/US border to aid your understanding of the point I was making. It obviously made little impression.

[Rink]

Where do the 'Palestinians have this equally strong claim?"

better start citing sources dear.

PS: the EU is nothing but a buncha socialist anti-semites who sold their souls to the devil for arab oil.
They'll pay for it in the end, more dearly than they suspect.

Now explain to me how the 'Palestinian territories are so illegally occupied?
Since after all before the formation of Israel there WAS no Palestinian nation, Jordan rules the so-called Palestinian territories.

So much for your claim to their Palestinian birthright to the land.

And FYI since when does International Law take precedence over a National security issue of any nation besieged by terrorism?

Thats like saying since after 9/11 America cannot institute any security measures to protect its citizens, and if arab terrorists commandeered another plaine, then they have a legit reason to do so thus they cannot be stopped.

By telling the Israelis to take that fence down, the EU and the International community is telling them, they as a soveriegn nation do not have a right to defend itself and that the palestinian people have a legitimate right to slaughter in an indiscriminate fashion, Israeli men, women, children and babies via suicide bombings.

[eric]

Where do the Palestinians have this equally strong claim?

Well, to start with, I'll state that Palestinians come from Palestine. That Palestinians have lived in Palestine for a rather long time is not in dispute. I suppose a UN source might help understand the problem.

http://www.un.org/Depts/dpa/ngo/history.html

Why is the Palestinian case not as strong?

PS: the EU is nothing but a buncha socialist anti-semites who sold their souls to the devil for arab oil.
They'll pay for it in the end, more dearly than they suspect.

Baseless accusation

Now explain to me how the 'Palestinian territories are so illegally occupied?

UN resolution 242 to start with.

Since after all before the formation of Israel there WAS no Palestinian nation, Jordan rules the so-called Palestinian territories.

Were there any Palestinians in Palestine at the time? It seems a little similar to the "Flag" argument proposed by comedian Eddie Izzard

" We stole countries! That's how you build an empire. We stole countries with the cunning use of flags! Sail halfway around the world, stick a flag in. "I claim India for Britain." And they're going, "You can't claim us. We live here! There's five hundred million of us." "Do you have a flag?" "We don't need a flag, this is our country you bastard!"

By telling the Israelis to take that fence down, the EU and the International community is telling them, they as a soveriegn nation do not have a right to defend itself

Is it so difficult? The International community is saying that Israel can build as many walls as they like on the Israel-Palestine border, but not on Palestinian land

[DoctorDoom]

[ QUOTE ]
There's the problem. The Palestinians have an equally strong case, if not stronger.

[/ QUOTE ]
First error: there never WAS a land called Palestine. The name was given by the Romans as an insult to the Jews during the occupation. It was based on the Philistines, the sworn enemies of Israel.

Second error: there never was a Palestinian people group. There is absolutely nothing to distinguish the "Palestinians" from any other Arabs. They have no unique culture, language or customs.

"Palestinians" are purely a political construct. They serve no purpose other than as Jew-killing thugs for the rest of the Arab world.

Question, kid: if all those Arab nations are so sympathetic to the "Palestinians", why do none of them offer them a chunk of land to call their own?

Israel represents 0.1% of the land in the middle east. That's smaller than the "Big Island" of Hawaii vs the total area of the 50 US states. Or, if you wish, it's equal to 15% of the land area of London compared to all of England.

Much of the other 99.9% of the mideast land is undeveloped or underdeveloped. Why don't their Arab "brothers" end all the conflict by offering the "Palestinians" a piece of land that can become a real Palestine? The answer is quite simple: the goat-****ers are obsessed with destroying Israel. 0.1% in Jewish hands is, in their hate-clouded minds, infinitely too much. They will not be able to sleep well until the last Jew is dead and they control 100% of the middle east.

But, the barbarians have a problem: every time they attacked Israel, the Jews kicked their camel-riding asses. They cannot defeat Israel militarily. Therefore, they are resorting to sleazier tactics.

The "Palestinians" occupy their present locations because the Arabs drove them out of their countries as clear and present dangers. Ergo, the Arabs know very well that the "Palestinians" are a rogue band of murderous savages, the mideast equivalent of gypsies, but without the gypsies' redeeming characteristics.. They make the perfect weapon for the destruction of Israel, and the Arabs keep their dainty hands unsoiled by Jewish blood. All they need to do is constantly foment hatred and blood-lust in the mideast, and support "Palestinian" murderers in their wanton, mindless attacks.

And in the west, the clueless assholes in the US and the EU lament the fates of those poor, harmless "Palestinians" who are forced to kill hundreds of innocent Israeli men, women and children because those mean old Jews won't kiss their Arab asses.

[ QUOTE ]
However, world opinion seems to suggest that a two-state solution is preferable.

[/ QUOTE ]
To hell with world opinion. The morons offering their vacuous opinions don't have to wake up every morning wondering if today is the day they'll die at the hands of some barbarian with a bomb.

[ QUOTE ]
Presently, the Palestinian territories are illegally occupied.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, they are. The Jews occupied them for millenia before the "Palestinian territories" ever existed.

[ QUOTE ]
You still seem to be struggling with the point of the EU decision

[/ QUOTE ]
**** the EU. Those has-been countries are living on memories of past glories. In today's world, Europe is largely irrelevant. Why the hell should Israel care WHAT they think?

[ QUOTE ]
"A country has the right to build a fence on its own territory but we believe the route of this fence is contrary to international law," Solana said.

[/ QUOTE ]
Solano doesn't have to wonder if the next towel-head he sees on the street is going to blow himself up.

[ QUOTE ]
I just brought up the Mexican/US border to aid your understanding of the point I was making. It obviously made little impression.

[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, it made no impression.

[eric]

DoctorDoom

First error: there never WAS a land called Palestine. The name was given by the Romans as an insult to the Jews during the occupation. It was based on the Philistines, the sworn enemies of Israel.

There never was a Land called Palestine, except for the last 2000 years.

Second error: there never was a Palestinian people group. There is absolutely nothing to distinguish the "Palestinians" from any other Arabs. They have no unique culture, language or customs.

Perhaps you might view them as just another bunch of Arabs. This raises the question of what makes a "people". The best answer I can think of is when people identify themselves as a people. In the US, after just a few generations, people can identify themselves as Texans, etc.

Israel represents 0.1% of the land in the middle east.

I'm sure the Catholics in Ireland were reassured by statistics relating the size of Ulster to the area of Europe. If you lose your home, statistics are meaningless.

I suspect perhaps that you feel that the middle-east (except for Israel) is a homogeneous area - they're all just "arabs".

"Palestinians" are purely a political construct.

As are Americans. Do they have no right to live somewhere?

The "Palestinians" occupy their present locations because the Arabs drove them out of their countries as clear and present dangers. Ergo, the Arabs know very well that the "Palestinians" are a rogue band of murderous savages

I'm sorry to say this, but that statement just makes you look ignorant

[DoctorDoom]

Lawdy, de chile be babblin' agin!

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
First error: there never WAS a land called Palestine. The name was given by the Romans as an insult to the Jews during the occupation. It was based on the Philistines, the sworn enemies of Israel.

[/ QUOTE ]
There never was a Land called Palestine, except for the last 2000 years.

[/ QUOTE ]
Little boy, WHO occupied the land there for millenia BEFORE the Romans invaded it? Did THEY call it Palestine? And who DID call it Palestine? Read my last post, child. It was Israel and Judah a hell of a lot longer than it was "Palestine".

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Second error: there never was a Palestinian people group. There is absolutely nothing to distinguish the "Palestinians" from any other Arabs. They have no unique culture, language or customs.

[/ QUOTE ]
Perhaps you might view them as just another bunch of Arabs.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's all they are.

[ QUOTE ]
This raises the question of what makes a "people". The best answer I can think of is when people identify themselves as a people. In the US, after just a few generations, people can identify themselves as Texans, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]
The only thing that makes an Arab a "Palestinian" is claiming to be a "Palestinian". Arafathead, the chief "Palestinian", is an Egyptian.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Israel represents 0.1% of the land in the middle east.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm sure the Catholics in Ireland were reassured by statistics relating the size of Ulster to the area of Europe.

[/ QUOTE ]
And WTF does that have to do with Israel, even assuming that such comparisons were made? You're pulling your "arguments": out of your ass again.

[ QUOTE ]
If you lose your home, statistics are meaningless.

[/ QUOTE ]
And Isreal, that little spot of land, has been fighting since 1948 to keep from losing its land to the bloodthirsty savages that surround it.

[ QUOTE ]
I suspect perhaps that you feel that the middle-east (except for Israel) is a homogeneous area - they're all just "arabs".

[/ QUOTE ]
And I suspect that you're now going to provide us with documented evidence that it is NOT a homogenous area united by a common goal of annihilating Israel.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"Palestinians" are purely a political construct.

[/ QUOTE ]
As are Americans.

[/ QUOTE ]
Wrong, child. The US exists because it declared independence and fought a bloody war to throw out King George's asshats. It wasn't invented by a treaty.

[ QUOTE ]
Do they have no right to live somewhere?

[/ QUOTE ]
You totally ignored my question, child. With 99.9% of the middle east land belonging to Arabs, much of it unused, why is is necessary for those barbarians to create a "homeland" at the expense of Israel? You already know the answer. The claim that they want their own land is bullshit. They rejected a treaty that would have given them 95% of what they demanded. They want the utter destruction of Israel.

It's very revealing that until the Jews returned to Israel and reclaimed the wasteland, the Arabs didn't give a shit about it. Look around the middle east and see if there is ONE Arab nation that is even a shadow of Israel economically, scientifically, and ecologically. EVERYTHING the Arabs have that is modern was the result of western influences and activities. Without the west, those bastards would be still be living in tents, herding goats, and praying to their moon god because of their vile dark-ages religion. Israel is unique in the middle east.

You've doubtless heard the bullshit about Jerusalem being the "third holiest site" in Islam. Would you like to know just how "holy" it was to the muzzies before the Jews returned and rebuilt the land?

<center>http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/dome3.gif

http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/dome.gif

http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/cupolas.gif</center>

These photos were taken in 1875. Do YOU see any Arabs in this "third holiest site"? Look at the decrepit condition of the buildings and grounds. Do YOU see any evidence that the muzzies had even the slightest interest in it?

Read the info on this page and learn the FACTS.

The Islamic claim to the Temple Mount is very recent (http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/templemount.html)

The Arabs were utterly uninterested in the land until the Jews brought it to life. Then, all of a sudden, "Palestinians" appeared from nowhere and demanded that they be given back their homeland. The indolent, incompetent pricks wanted it only AFTER it became valuable.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The "Palestinians" occupy their present locations because the Arabs drove them out of their countries as clear and present dangers. Ergo, the Arabs know very well that the "Palestinians" are a rogue band of murderous savages.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry to say this, but that statement just makes you look ignorant.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you were "sorry", you wouldn't have said it, child. IAC, the statement just shines a cold, harsh spotlight on your own utter, culpable ignorance.

Do a little research on the history of the "Palestinians" and see if you can find anything that depicts them as other than violent, antisocial barbarians.

[ QUOTE ]
There is little doubt that Jordan will become a fully fledged State of Arab Muslim Palestinians in the not too distant future. As Yasir Arafat draws closer to his death bed from a series of maladies, it is highly likely that he will wish to complete what he attempted to do in Jordan until then King Hussein ejected him in 1971.

During those years, Arafat had concluded 26 separate agreements with King Hussein of Jordan to maintain the peace IF his Palestinians were allowed freedom of movement. Arafat broke every agreement, ending with his bloody expulsion with the Palestinians called "Black September".

After King Hussein learned of Arafat’s plot to kill his brother who controlled the Jordanian army, King Hussein ordered the expulsion with a bloody slaughter of Arafat’s Palestinians. They fled, mostly into Lebanon where Arafat set up a mini-Terror State with 12 years of Civil War, which bloodshed caused the deaths of 100,000 Lebanese, Christians and Muslims.

[/ QUOTE ]
THE COMING ‘COUP D’ETAT’ OF JORDAN (http://www.jewishindy.com/print.php?sid=3667)

[ QUOTE ]
Following the June 1967 Six Day War, the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) established its major base of operations for the war against Israel in Jordan. Throughout the late 1960s, a cycle of Palestinian guerrilla attacks followed by Israeli retaliatory raids against Jordan caused much damage to Jordan and put major strain on Jordan's relationship with the US and other Western countries. By 1970, it was widely believed that PLO leader Yasser Arafat and other factional heads were attempting to overthrow King Hussein, who viewed their operations against Israel as a threat to Jordan.

By 1970, Palestinians, both Jordanian citizens and refugees, were almost as numerous in Jordan as King Hussein's own Bedouins. Arafat used the estimated 20,000 Palestine Liberation Organization fighters in Jordan to exercise control over much of the Palestinian population. In many parts of the country, he was the de facto government. Jordan was seen as a waystation toward defeat of Israel and a united Palestinian Arab state encompassing Israel and Jordan. As many Palestinian Arabs put it: "the road to Tel Aviv lies through Amman".

On September 6, 1970 militant factions of the PLO hijacked four foreign planes. They flew three to Dawson's Field in PLO-controlled northern Jordan and one to Cairo. European governments secured the release of the hostage passangers by agreeing to release PLO terrorists from their prisons. The PLO then blew up the planes.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why did Jordan expel the PLO in 1970? (http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1967to1991_jordan_expel_plo.php)

[ QUOTE ]
At the heart of the U.S. peace plan now being considered by the Israelis and the Palestinians is a simple bargain. Israel surrenders control over the Temple Mount and most of Arab East Jerusalem. The Palestinians surrender the right of millions of refugees to return to their homes in Israel.

A good swap? The Arab League says no. At a meeting on Thursday, Arab foreign ministers insisted that the right of return is "sacred" and must never be bargained away.

The hypocrisy is staggering. One reason Palestinian refugees are there in the first place is that Arab countries attacked the nascent country of Israel in 1947 and 1948, rejecting a United Nations plan to peacefully divide the Holy Land into Jewish and Palestinian states. As the secretary-general of the Arab League, Azzam Pasha, said of the attack at the time, "this will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre."

In the event, the effort failed. The Israelis beat back the attackers and took control of most of what is now the state of Israel. Hundreds of thousands of Palestinians fled or were driven out in the process. Rather than take in these refugees, the surrounding Arab countries -- Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt -- left them to stew in refugee camps, where many remain to this day, an expense, a nuisance and a source of instability for their reluctant hosts.

[/ QUOTE ]
What of the Refugees? (http://christianactionforisrael.org/isreport/janfeb01/refugees_pf.html)

[ QUOTE ]
When the War of Independence ended in 1949, Egypt occupied the Gaza District while Jordan occupied the West Bank, and Resolution 181 (11) was widely ignored by the Arab states. In fact, at least one Palestinian terrorist group declared Resolution "illegal and of no effect." Then, in 1951 Jordan announced its annexation of the entire West Bank. Only Great Britain and Pakistan recognized this annexation, while the Department of State merely conceded delivery of the Jordanian note announcing annexation. During the period between annexation on April 15, 1951 and the Six Day War of June 6, 1967, the State Department considered Egypt to be a belligerent occupant of the Gaza District and Jordan to be a belligerent occupant of the West Bank. So there was at least some penalty for violation of Article 2 (4), but it was like a slap on the wrist for the Arabs, or reduced time for good behavior on the part of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO).

Both Jordan and Egypt were belligerent occupants of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip between 1949 and 1967. During this period, Jordanian military personnel trashed some fifty-eight synagogues, used headstones from Jewish cemeteries to build roads, and Jews were expelled from the West Bank and not permitted to visit the Western Wall, Judaism's most sacred site. In October 12, 2000, Palestinians were still acting in the same way. They destroyed St. Joseph's tomb, another sacred site of Judaism while Palestinian Police stood by and did nothing. In 1967, Egypt, Jordan, and Syria once again attacked Israel in violation of the peace treaty between Israel and Egypt was signed in 1979.

Article 2(4) of the UN Charter. Jordanian armed forces were driven out of the West Bank, and Egyptian armed forces were driven out of the Gaza Strip. They were driven back to the Suez Canal across the Sinai. Desert. Article 51 of the UN Charter guaranteed that Israel could act in self-defense against armed attack. Israel moved into the suddenly-vacated West Bank and Gaza. This action taken in self-defense could not possibly convert Israel into an "occupier" of the West Bank. In 1979, Israel withdrew from the Sinai Desert as "territory occupied during the recent (1967) conflict." Egypt never claimed sovereignty over the Gaza Strip, and Israel traded this land for peace in 2000.

[snip]

The PLO created a Palestine National Charter (PNA) in 1968. Some of its more moderate language called for the expulsion of Jews from all of Palestine. As part of the peace process, Israel demanded and got from Yasser Arafat an agreement to eliminate all the language in the PNA specifying armed struggle and other ugly clauses as essential to the liberation of Palestine. Six years after its creation, members of the PLO soon became nuisance in Jordan, so in 1970 King Hussein expelled all of these thugs including Yasser Arafat who wound up in Lebanon. In some ten years, the PLO had worn out its chilly welcome in: Lebanon. So in 1982, Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) invaded Lebanon to end PLO shelling of its northern area using Soviet-manufactured Katushka rocket launchers acquired by Hafez al Assad, Syria's president. I was in Lebanon with the IDF and saw for myself the caves full of ammunition and other military hardware for the use of PLO fedayeen. Finally, the PLO left Lebanon for Tunisia, but it left Syrian military in Lebanon's Bekaa Valley to continue the war against Israel.

[/ QUOTE ]
Condemn the Palestinians for the Unlawful Use of Violence (http://www.asian-history.com/condemn.html)

And then the lefties wonder why Israel is averse to osculating Arafat's glutei.

[Coral_Snake]

[ QUOTE ]
DoctorDoom said:
Lawdy, de chile be babblin' agin!

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
First error: there never WAS a land called Palestine. The name was given by the Romans as an insult to the Jews during the occupation. It was based on the Philistines, the sworn enemies of Israel.

[/ QUOTE ]
There never was a Land called Palestine, except for the last 2000 years.

[/ QUOTE ]
Little boy, WHO occupied the land there for millenia BEFORE the Romans invaded it? Did THEY call it Palestine? And who DID call it Palestine? Read my last post, child. It was Israel and Judah a hell of a lot longer than it was "Palestine".

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Second error: there never was a Palestinian people group. There is absolutely nothing to distinguish the "Palestinians" from any other Arabs. They have no unique culture, language or customs.

[/ QUOTE ]
Perhaps you might view them as just another bunch of Arabs.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's all they are.

[ QUOTE ]
This raises the question of what makes a "people". The best answer I can think of is when people identify themselves as a people. In the US, after just a few generations, people can identify themselves as Texans, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]
The only thing that makes an Arab a "Palestinian" is claiming to be a "Palestinian". Arafathead, the chief "Palestinian", is an Egyptian.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Israel represents 0.1% of the land in the middle east.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm sure the Catholics in Ireland were reassured by statistics relating the size of Ulster to the area of Europe.

[/ QUOTE ]
And WTF does that have to do with Israel, even assuming that such comparisons were made? You're pulling your "arguments": out of your ass again.

[ QUOTE ]
If you lose your home, statistics are meaningless.

[/ QUOTE ]
And Isreal, that little spot of land, has been fighting since 1948 to keep from losing its land to the bloodthirsty savages that surround it.

[ QUOTE ]
I suspect perhaps that you feel that the middle-east (except for Israel) is a homogeneous area - they're all just "arabs".

[/ QUOTE ]
And I suspect that you're now going to provide us with documented evidence that it is NOT a homogenous area united by a common goal of annihilating Israel.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"Palestinians" are purely a political construct.

[/ QUOTE ]
As are Americans.

[/ QUOTE ]
Wrong, child. The US exists because it declared independence and fought a bloody war to throw out King George's asshats. It wasn't invented by a treaty.

[ QUOTE ]
Do they have no right to live somewhere?

[/ QUOTE ]
You totally ignored my question, child. With 99.9% of the middle east land belonging to Arabs, much of it unused, why is is necessary for those barbarians to create a "homeland" at the expense of Israel? You already know the answer. The claim that they want their own land is bullshit. They rejected a treaty that would have given them 95% of what they demanded. They want the utter destruction of Israel.

It's very revealing that until the Jews returned to Israel and reclaimed the wasteland, the Arabs didn't give a shit about it. Look around the middle east and see if there is ONE Arab nation that is even a shadow of Israel economically, scientifically, and ecologically. EVERYTHING the Arabs have that is modern was the result of western influences and activities. Without the west, those bastards would be still be living in tents, herding goats, and praying to their moon god because of their vile dark-ages religion. Israel is unique in the middle east.

You've doubtless heard the bullshit about Jerusalem being the "third holiest site" in Islam. Would you like to know just how "holy" it was to the muzzies before the Jews returned and rebuilt the land?

<center>http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/dome3.gif

http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/dome.gif

http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/cupolas.gif</center>

These photos were taken in 1875. Do YOU see any Arabs in this "third holiest site"? Look at the decrepit condition of the buildings and grounds. Do YOU see any evidence that the muzzies had even the slightest interest in it?

Read the info on this page and learn the FACTS.

The Islamic claim to the Temple Mount is very recent (http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/templemount.html)

The Arabs were utterly uninterested in the land until the Jews brought it to life. Then, all of a sudden, "Palestinians" appeared from nowhere and demanded that they be given back their homeland. The indolent, incompetent pricks wanted it only AFTER it became valuable.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The "Palestinians" occupy their present locations because the Arabs drove them out of their countries as clear and present dangers. Ergo, the Arabs know very well that the "Palestinians" are a rogue band of murderous savages.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry to say this, but that statement just makes you look ignorant.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you were "sorry", you wouldn't have said it, child. IAC, the statement just shines a cold, harsh spotlight on your own utter, culpable ignorance.

Do a little research on the history of the "Palestinians" and see if you can find anything that depicts them as other than violent, antisocial barbarians.

[ QUOTE ]
There is little doubt that Jordan will become a fully fledged State of Arab Muslim Palestinians in the not too distant future. As Yasir Arafat draws closer to his death bed from a series of maladies, it is highly likely that he will wish to complete what he attempted to do in Jordan until then King Hussein ejected him in 1971.

During those years, Arafat had concluded 26 separate agreements with King Hussein of Jordan to maintain the peace IF his Palestinians were allowed freedom of movement. Arafat broke every agreement, ending with his bloody expulsion with the Palestinians called "Black September".

After King Hussein learned of Arafat’s plot to kill his brother who controlled the Jordanian army, King Hussein ordered the expulsion with a bloody slaughter of Arafat’s Palestinians. They fled, mostly into Lebanon where Arafat set up a mini-Terror State with 12 years of Civil War, which bloodshed caused the deaths of 100,000 Lebanese, Christians and Muslims.

[/ QUOTE ]
THE COMING ‘COUP D’ETAT’ OF JORDAN (http://www.jewishindy.com/print.php?sid=3667)

[ QUOTE ]
Following the June 1967 Six Day War, the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) established its major base of operations for the war against Israel in Jordan. Throughout the late 1960s, a cycle of Palestinian guerrilla attacks followed by Israeli retaliatory raids against Jordan caused much damage to Jordan and put major strain on Jordan's relationship with the US and other Western countries. By 1970, it was widely believed that PLO leader Yasser Arafat and other factional heads were attempting to overthrow King Hussein, who viewed their operations against Israel as a threat to Jordan.

By 1970, Palestinians, both Jordanian citizens and refugees, were almost as numerous in Jordan as King Hussein's own Bedouins. Arafat used the estimated 20,000 Palestine Liberation Organization fighters in Jordan to exercise control over much of the Palestinian population. In many parts of the country, he was the de facto government. Jordan was seen as a waystation toward defeat of Israel and a united Palestinian Arab state encompassing Israel and Jordan. As many Palestinian Arabs put it: "the road to Tel Aviv lies through Amman".

On September 6, 1970 militant factions of the PLO hijacked four foreign planes. They flew three to Dawson's Field in PLO-controlled northern Jordan and one to Cairo. European governments secured the release of the hostage passangers by agreeing to release PLO terrorists from their prisons. The PLO then blew up the planes.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why did Jordan expel the PLO in 1970? (http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1967to1991_jordan_expel_plo.php)

[ QUOTE ]
At the heart of the U.S. peace plan now being considered by the Israelis and the Palestinians is a simple bargain. Israel surrenders control over the Temple Mount and most of Arab East Jerusalem. The Palestinians surrender the right of millions of refugees to return to their homes in Israel.

A good swap? The Arab League says no. At a meeting on Thursday, Arab foreign ministers insisted that the right of return is "sacred" and must never be bargained away.

The hypocrisy is staggering. One reason Palestinian refugees are there in the first place is that Arab countries attacked the nascent country of Israel in 1947 and 1948, rejecting a United Nations plan to peacefully divide the Holy Land into Jewish and Palestinian states. As the secretary-general of the Arab League, Azzam Pasha, said of the attack at the time, "this will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre."

In the event, the effort failed. The Israelis beat back the attackers and took control of most of what is now the state of Israel. Hundreds of thousands of Palestinians fled or were driven out in the process. Rather than take in these refugees, the surrounding Arab countries -- Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt -- left them to stew in refugee camps, where many remain to this day, an expense, a nuisance and a source of instability for their reluctant hosts.

[/ QUOTE ]
What of the Refugees? (http://christianactionforisrael.org/isreport/janfeb01/refugees_pf.html)

[ QUOTE ]
When the War of Independence ended in 1949, Egypt occupied the Gaza District while Jordan occupied the West Bank, and Resolution 181 (11) was widely ignored by the Arab states. In fact, at least one Palestinian terrorist group declared Resolution "illegal and of no effect." Then, in 1951 Jordan announced its annexation of the entire West Bank. Only Great Britain and Pakistan recognized this annexation, while the Department of State merely conceded delivery of the Jordanian note announcing annexation. During the period between annexation on April 15, 1951 and the Six Day War of June 6, 1967, the State Department considered Egypt to be a belligerent occupant of the Gaza District and Jordan to be a belligerent occupant of the West Bank. So there was at least some penalty for violation of Article 2 (4), but it was like a slap on the wrist for the Arabs, or reduced time for good behavior on the part of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO).

Both Jordan and Egypt were belligerent occupants of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip between 1949 and 1967. During this period, Jordanian military personnel trashed some fifty-eight synagogues, used headstones from Jewish cemeteries to build roads, and Jews were expelled from the West Bank and not permitted to visit the Western Wall, Judaism's most sacred site. In October 12, 2000, Palestinians were still acting in the same way. They destroyed St. Joseph's tomb, another sacred site of Judaism while Palestinian Police stood by and did nothing. In 1967, Egypt, Jordan, and Syria once again attacked Israel in violation of the peace treaty between Israel and Egypt was signed in 1979.

Article 2(4) of the UN Charter. Jordanian armed forces were driven out of the West Bank, and Egyptian armed forces were driven out of the Gaza Strip. They were driven back to the Suez Canal across the Sinai. Desert. Article 51 of the UN Charter guaranteed that Israel could act in self-defense against armed attack. Israel moved into the suddenly-vacated West Bank and Gaza. This action taken in self-defense could not possibly convert Israel into an "occupier" of the West Bank. In 1979, Israel withdrew from the Sinai Desert as "territory occupied during the recent (1967) conflict." Egypt never claimed sovereignty over the Gaza Strip, and Israel traded this land for peace in 2000.

[snip]

The PLO created a Palestine National Charter (PNA) in 1968. Some of its more moderate language called for the expulsion of Jews from all of Palestine. As part of the peace process, Israel demanded and got from Yasser Arafat an agreement to eliminate all the language in the PNA specifying armed struggle and other ugly clauses as essential to the liberation of Palestine. Six years after its creation, members of the PLO soon became nuisance in Jordan, so in 1970 King Hussein expelled all of these thugs including Yasser Arafat who wound up in Lebanon. In some ten years, the PLO had worn out its chilly welcome in: Lebanon. So in 1982, Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) invaded Lebanon to end PLO shelling of its northern area using Soviet-manufactured Katushka rocket launchers acquired by Hafez al Assad, Syria's president. I was in Lebanon with the IDF and saw for myself the caves full of ammunition and other military hardware for the use of PLO fedayeen. Finally, the PLO left Lebanon for Tunisia, but it left Syrian military in Lebanon's Bekaa Valley to continue the war against Israel.

[/ QUOTE ]
Condemn the Palestinians for the Unlawful Use of Violence (http://www.asian-history.com/condemn.html)

And then the lefties wonder why Israel is averse to osculating Arafat's glutei.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think one of the main reasons that Arabs HATE Israel so much is that it makes a LIE of a central doctrine of Islam. This doctrine is that lands that come under the sword of Islam also come under the protection of "Allah" AND STAY IN ISLAM. In fact Arabs and Muslems in general would continue to hate Israel even if they retreated to the pre 1967 borders and allowed Arafat to set up a Saddam state in the West bank and Gaza
because they would continue to occupy "Muslim" land and make a LIE out of a central Islamic doctrine and ultimately the entire house of cards known as Islam itself. Most of which including especially their dietary laws were plagurized from The Old Testement and Jewish culture ironically.

As for the person you are arguing with he probably is a troll from a Liberal forum called AlFrankenWeb.com. We have been dealing with these trolls all last week and on into this week at ConservaBabes.com and I recognized the "patented" AlfrankenWeb "debate" technique immediately. No historical or any other facts to back up their arguments "Liberally" laced with Ad Homs.

[Timberwolf]

[ QUOTE ]
eric said:
The big issue with the fence is that it is built in Palestinian territory. Israel can (legally) build as many walls as they like in Israel.

It would be like Mexico building a wall from Northern California across to Texas to defend itself.

[/ QUOTE ]
There's no such thing as "Palestinian Territory". Palestine is not a country, nor has it ever been. Israelis are just as much "Palestinian" as the so-called "palestinians" are.

Tell ya what, troll...you get the "peaceful, law-abiding palestinians" to QUIT BLOWING PEOPLE AND STUFF UP and then we can talk about chastizing Israel for defending herself.

[Justaguy]

Eric... trust me on this one.... RUN!!!! RUN FAST!!!

It doesn't matter how right you are, or how well presented your arguments are, or how much you debunk perceived "facts", how clearly you present the history of the region... you will NEVER EVER WIN this one.

To steal a line from some comedian I don't know the name of... I don't know how many they'll need to kick your ass... but I know how many they're gonna use!!!!

[DoctorDoom]

Eric, meet our resident Jew-basher. He hasn't changed a bit. He's still the same clueless, anti-Israel asshat as always. Facts don't faze him. He wouldn't recognize a fact if it kicked his butt with a size 20 steel-toed boot.

Some things are as predictable as stench in a slaughterhouse. His contempt for Israel and his ignorance of the middle east are two of them.

[UnkHiram]

Eric

I will make a deal with you, when the United Nations condemn Russia for their occupation of Siberia, or China for its occupation of Tibet, or any of the other Socialist leaning Dictatorships out there for their outrageous disregard for Civil Rights then and only then will I take their condemnation of Israel serious.

Israel is trying to protect itself from a foreign invader that thinks nothing of slaughtering innocent women and children. Lest you forget the Palestinians now living in Israel were kicked out of every Arab nation that they infested.

[Justaguy]

[ QUOTE ]
DoctorDoom said:
Eric, meet our resident Jew-basher. He hasn't changed a bit. He's still the same clueless, anti-Israel asshat as always. Facts don't faze him. He wouldn't recognize a fact if it kicked his butt with a size 20 steel-toed boot.

Some things are as predictable as stench in a slaughterhouse. His contempt for Israel and his ignorance of the middle east are two of them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Eric,

Notice the unprovoked ad-hom...

Doc,

Thanks for making my point for me!! I couldn't have done it any better myself!

[DoctorDoom]

Eric doesn't know you and your prejudices like we do. A proper introduction was in order.

[Justaguy]

[ QUOTE ]
DoctorDoom said:
Eric doesn't know you and your prejudices like we do. A proper introduction was in order.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doc... When have I ever described Jews or Israelis as:

"goat-****ers "

"hate-clouded"


"rogue band of murderous savages, the mideast equivalent of gypsies, but without the gypsies' redeeming characteristics" (2 for 1?)

"bloodthirsty savages "

"violent, antisocial barbarians."

And when did I EVER call ANY member on this board anything as juvenile as an "asshat"? LOL...

All this talk of "prejudices" calls to mind an old adage about stones and glass houses!

[Rink]

Just look at what the Muslims have done, has ANYTHING they ever done ever positive?

EVER?

At least every place jews have ever been they have benefitted every country they have ever resided in, and everytime they were expelled, the country that had them suffered for it.

you cannot say the same about Muslims.

Every place muslims have gone to, violence has followed.

Can you say the same for Jews?

Oyea violence Against Jews, but not jews killing others.

[Justaguy]

[ QUOTE ]
Rink said:
Just look at what the Muslims have done, has ANYTHING they ever done ever positive?

EVER?



[/ QUOTE ]

Well... Algebra... and Arabic numerals were pretty good things...

Not to mention Shish Kabob!!!

[Rink]

Really?

and you completely dicount every instance of violence that has followed Arab Muslims everywhere they go?????

[Justaguy]

Nope... but I eat Shish Kabob!!! You said name anything ever... so I did.

Now can we stop sending tax money to the whole lot of em?

[eric]

Well, I wasn't online over the weekend and there's so much to respond to. I apologise in advance if I miss anything specific.

I'll start with Doctor Doom. Your point essentially appears to be that there were Jews in what we now call Israel/Palestine for thousands of years, and left in what was known as the diaspora, initiated by the Romans. However your point reminds me of something that was written by Norman Davies, an Oxford Historian. He writes that there is a common perception that Hadrian's Wall (built by the Romans at the northern edge of their empire) was built to keep the Scottish out of England. However, at that time, the English were still in Germany and the Scots were in Ireland. The upshot is that human migration is a fact of life, and if we were to solve boundary disputes by "who was there 2000 years ago", the borders of the world would look very different than what we see today.

The truth of the matter is that in the 19th century, Jewish immigration into what was known as Palestine began to occur (and accelerated as WW2 approached) and the indigeneous population was arabic. It is undeniable that in the 20th century Palestinians have seen a shrinking of the land in which they lived, and the small part of their territory that they retain is occupied by the Israeli military.

As an atheist, the images of the Temple Mount don't really change my opinion on the conflict. Does bad upkeep of an area really mean it isn't yours? Could Canada invade parts of New York because it's a bit run-down? (I see I'm being facetious here, but you see my point)

"The modern history of Jerusalem began in the mid-nineteenth century, with the decline of the Ottoman Empire. At that time, the city was a backwater, with a population that did not exceed 8,000." It's worth putting the images in context.

You then go on to argue that the recent history of the region is particularly bloody - I agree.

UnkHiram

"I will make a deal with you, when the United Nations condemn Russia for their occupation of Siberia, or China for its occupation of Tibet, or any of the other Socialist leaning Dictatorships out there for their outrageous disregard for Civil Rights then and only then will I take their condemnation of Israel serious.

This is pretty difficult as both China and Russia have permanent seats on the Security Council - and can veto resolutions denouncing their terror campaigns. I would say that two wrongs don't make a right.

To your second point, "Israel is trying to protect itself from a foreign invader that thinks nothing of slaughtering innocent women and children. Lest you forget the Palestinians now living in Israel were kicked out of every Arab nation that they infested"

From a Palestinian (and historical) point of view it is the reverse. It is the Israelis that presently are the invaders. No palestinian army is occupying Israel - it is the reverse. The stream of migration has been Israelis coming in, not Arabs. I would say to your second point, it sounds awfully similar to what Nazi Propagrandists would have said about the Jews. [b] "the [Jews] now living in [Germany] were kicked out of every [Christian] nation that they infested"

[DoctorDoom]

[ QUOTE ]
I'll start with Doctor Doom. Your point essentially appears to be that there were Jews in what we now call Israel/Palestine for thousands of years, and left in what was known as the diaspora, initiated by the Romans.

[/ QUOTE ]
They left because it was intolerable to live there, not out of the desire to leave. That has been their ancestral land for millenia.

[ QUOTE ]
However your point reminds me of something that was written by Norman Davies, an Oxford Historian. He writes that there is a common perception that Hadrian's Wall (built by the Romans at the northern edge of their empire) was built to keep the Scottish out of England. However, at that time, the English were still in Germany and the Scots were in Ireland. The upshot is that human migration is a fact of life, and if we were to solve boundary disputes by "who was there 2000 years ago", the borders of the world would look very different than what we see today.

[/ QUOTE ]
Non sequitur. The issue is the promised land of the Jewish people, not barbarian Europe.

[ QUOTE ]
The truth of the matter is that in the 19th century, Jewish immigration into what was known as Palestine began to occur (and accelerated as WW2 approached) and the indigeneous population was arabic.

[/ QUOTE ]
The rightful owners can usually find vermin on their property when they have not been there to maintain it for a long time.

[ QUOTE ]
It is undeniable that in the 20th century Palestinians have seen a shrinking of the land in which they lived, and the small part of their territory that they retain is occupied by the Israeli military.

[/ QUOTE ]
It is also undeniable that the "Palestinians" had neither the ability nor the interest that was needed to keep it from going into the crapper. They were (and are) parasites.

[ QUOTE ]
As an atheist, the images of the Temple Mount don't really change my opinion on the conflict.

[/ QUOTE ]
That statement is, to be kind, vacuous. The Islamists call it their "third holiest site" after Mecca and Medina. The photos demonstrate that they are shameless liars. They didn't give a shit about Jerusalem or the Mount until after the Jews reclaimed the city and the land from their state of disrepair. Once the Jews pumped lifeblood back into it, the leeches suddenly "got religion" and invented the ludicrous myth that Mo the pedo ascended into heaven from the Temple Mount, making it #3 on the Islamic holy sites list.

They also claim that Jerusalem has ALWAYS been theirs, and that the Jews have never had any claim to it. This is despite the fact that there is not one mention of Jerusalem in ANY Islamic scripture, whereas the OT, the Jewish scripture, mentions Jerusalem by name 667 times. This is despite the fact that the irresponsible excavation of the Temple Mount is unearthing and callously destroying thousands of years of artifacts that are uniquely Jewish.

Whether or not you're a heathen fool, you'd do very well to watch Jerusalem and the Mount very closely. There is a great probability that WW3 will begin there.

[ QUOTE ]
Does bad upkeep of an area really mean it isn't yours?

[/ QUOTE ]
It farking well does when you're claiming that it is your religion's third holiest place on Earth.

[ QUOTE ]
Could Canada invade parts of New York because it's a bit run-down? (I see I'm being facetious here, but you see my point)

[/ QUOTE ]
Facetious? No. Preposterous? Yes. You made no point whatsoever.

[ QUOTE ]
"The modern history of Jerusalem began in the mid-nineteenth century, with the decline of the Ottoman Empire. At that time, the city was a backwater, with a population that did not exceed 8,000." It's worth putting the images in context.

[/ QUOTE ]
And the context is that the Arabs inhabited the land in the same way that fleas inhabit a dog.

[eric]

They left because it was intolerable to live there, not out of the desire to leave. That has been their ancestral land for millenia.

That's what I wrote.

I'm a little concerned that you are making this a religious issue, and that somehow the middle east is different from other conflicts because it pops up in some religious texts.

For example "The issue is the promised land of the Jewish people, not barbarian Europe". The same standards should apply. I see no reason to differentiate general principles of human rights because of some old text some believe to be divinely inspired. You also refused my parallels with the Irish Question (as it is often referred) and parallels with New York.

The rightful owners can usually find vermin on their property when they have not been there to maintain it for a long time.

Like 1800 years, I suppose.

I'm afraid your posts come across as bigoted. You refer to people in the most degrading terms.

"Arabs inhabited the land in the same way that fleas inhabit a dog"
"They were (and are) parasites"
"the leeches"
"bloodthirsty savages".

My point is not that Jews have no claim to Palestine - they do. My point is that Palestinians also have a claim to the region, and no amount of debate can deny this. I find it difficult to accept that you believe that arabs have no claim to the land. I fear that your thinking is being clouded by fundamentalist tendencies.

[DoctorDoom]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm a little concerned that you are making this a religious issue, and that somehow the middle east is different from other conflicts because it pops up in some religious texts.

[/ QUOTE ]
It IS a religious issue, depite your heathen cynicism. It is Islam vs Judaism, a Jewish state surrounded by Islamic states with a monomaniacal passion for destroying it. You can put all the secular spin on it that you'd like, but it is in the final analysis a religious matter.

[Faithful_Servant]

[ QUOTE ]
eric said:
I'm not sure you understood my point. I didn't write that Israel shouldn't build a wall.

Prove its (sic) Palestinian 'Territory'

Have a look on a map of the Middle East.

Take the American-Mexico border. If America wants to put a barrier along the border, fine. If it wanted to put the border twenty miles south of the border, the Mexican government might complain. That's what is being discussed, not the issue of whether a wall should be built, full stop.



[/ QUOTE ]
The "Palestininian Territory" you so lamely attempt to protray as a separate country is part of Israel. It's not a separate country, it's part of Israel. Israel is building a fence in Israel. There is no Palestine. All there is is a bunch of Arab stooges being manipulted by Arafat and SA to bring about the destruction of Israel.

[eric]

FS

The West Bank, and the Gaza Strip have been referred to as "occupied territories" (with Israel as the occupying power) by Palestinian Arabs, the rest of the Arab bloc, the UK the EU, (usually) the USA and both the General Assembly and the Security Council of the United Nations.

(I can provide links if you want)

Currently, the Israeli forces occupy the Palestinian territories, but they are not regarded as being part of Israel by the international community. Your argument is akin to Saddam Hussein claiming Kuwait was part of Iraq, when it was not recognised as such.

DD

I don't agree that the Israel/Palestine question is fundamentally a religious issue, although that is not to say religion plays no part.

Like most border disputes (Ireland, Yugoslavia) religion is often cited, but the fundamental cause is politics. Both zionism and fundamentalist Islam are relatively new phenomena, whereas the two respective religions are centuries old. There was little demand for a Israeli homeland in the 18th century. As I've already written, the Ottoman empire was a haven for Judaism when Jews were persecuted in Europe.

[Timberwolf]

[ QUOTE ]
Justaguy said:
[ QUOTE ]
Rink said:
Just look at what the Muslims have done, has ANYTHING they ever done ever positive?

EVER?

[/ QUOTE ]
Well... Algebra... and Arabic numerals were pretty good things...

Not to mention Shish Kabob!!!

[/ QUOTE ]
Ummmm....algebra was given to us by the ancient Greeks a couple thousand years ago.

As for the Arabic numerals and shish kabob...oh well, what ELSE have they contributed in the past 1400 years besides strife and bloodshed?

[Nemo0213]

Just wanted to point out the fact that when the isrealis where finally granted their own land they didn't kick out the arabs or treat them unfairly. The arabs left of their own accord Because their RELIGION says that to mingle with jews or christians is DEATH! quit clearly making the whole affair a religious one. Also the palestinian constitution says they will not stop until israel is driven into the sea. So if they grant the palestinians land there still won't be peace until israel is destroyed right down to the last infant! The whole affair of a palestinian state has a peculiar resembelance to the whole sudetenland affair with hitler!

[Rink]

The peculiarity is because they are Inheritors of Hitlers hateful racist legacy.

The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem during WW2 embraced Hitler as a brother and he and his brother arabs embraced Hitlers racist hatred of Jews.

That is why Hitler had support in the Arab countries during WW2, because they had a common hatred. Jews.

[DoctorDoom]

[ QUOTE ]
DD

I don't agree that the Israel/Palestine question is fundamentally a religious issue, although that is not to say religion plays no part.

[/ QUOTE ]
Your disagreement is duly noted and filed appropriately.

The "Palestinians" are the blunt instruments being wielded against Israel by the Islamic nations. The motive for the obsession with annihilating Israel is and always has been religious. Islamic pulpits scream with hatred for Jews and calls for their destruction. Not a week goes by that some imam or sheik isn't calling down the wrath of Allah on Israel. The "Palestinian" religious leaders seldom preach of anything else.

And, Islam's scriptures exhort death to the Jews. One example:

Bukhari Hadith 4.791:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar: I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "The Jews will fight with you, and you will be given victory over them so that a stone will say, 'O Muslim! There is a Jew behind me; kill him!' "

Don't be deceived. Religion is the heart and soul of the conflict between Jews and Muslims.

[Justaguy]

[ QUOTE ]
Timberwolf said:
[ QUOTE ]
Justaguy said:
[ QUOTE ]
Rink said:
Just look at what the Muslims have done, has ANYTHING they ever done ever positive?

EVER?

[/ QUOTE ]
Well... Algebra... and Arabic numerals were pretty good things...

Not to mention Shish Kabob!!!

[/ QUOTE ]
Ummmm....algebra was given to us by the ancient Greeks a couple thousand years ago.

[/ QUOTE ]

Recent research paints a new picture of the debt that we owe to Arabic/Islamic mathematics. Certainly many of the ideas which were previously thought to have been brilliant new conceptions due to European mathematicians of the sixteenth, seventeenth and eighteenth centuries are now known to have been developed by Arabic/Islamic mathematicians around four centuries earlier. In many respects the mathematics studied today is far closer in style to that of the Arabic/Islamic contribution than to that of the Greeks.

Found here (http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/HistTopics/Arabic_mathematics.html)

[ QUOTE ]
As for the Arabic numerals and shish kabob...oh well, what ELSE have they contributed in the past 1400 years besides strife and bloodshed?

[/ QUOTE ]

Did I mention Shish Kabob? You guys keep moving the bar on me!

My position is the same as it's always been... Israelis kill Arabs... Arabs kill Israelis... Hutus kill Tootsies.... Tootsies kill Hutus.... Serbs kill Albanians... Albanians kill Serbs.... do we REALLY want to sink our tax dollars in local civil wars? Israel lives or dies as an independent country... so be it... as it is now, it is NOT an independent country.

[Justaguy]

[ QUOTE ]
Faithful_Servant said:
[
The "Palestininian Territory" you so lamely attempt to protray as a separate country is part of Israel. It's not a separate country, it's part of Israel. Israel is building a fence in Israel. There is no Palestine. All there is is a bunch of Arab stooges being manipulted by Arafat and SA to bring about the destruction of Israel.

[/ QUOTE ]

Care to share the identified borders of Israel, so that we can clearly tell what is and is not Israel? What about those people that are living "in Israel?" Are they Israeli? If so... should they be afforded the rights and responsibilities of citizenship?

[Dr_Gonzo (banned)]

There is a big difference between being against Israel's actions against the Palestinians and being anti-Semitic. What about Noam Chomsky? He's Jewish and he's appalled at Israel's behaviour, does that mean that he hates himself? Not all Jews are Israelis and not all Jews (not even all Israelis) agree with the Israeli government's actions.

[DoctorDoom]

Child, when you Irish can cut the north vs south bullshit and live peacefully, THEN you can comment credibly on Israel vs the Palesterrorists. Until then, piss off.

BTW, Chomsky is a grade-A, blue-ribbon, gold-medal asshole.

[Rink]

hey doc, can you provide some passages from the koran over Muhammad's call to slaughter jews wherever they may be, and kill infidels that dont bow their heads to Islam???

ty

[Timberwolf]

[ QUOTE ]
DoctorDoom said:
Child, when you Irish can cut the north vs south bullshit and live peacefully, THEN you can comment credibly on Israel vs the Palesterrorists. Until then, piss off.

BTW, Chomsky is a grade-A, blue-ribbon, gold-medal asshole.

[/ QUOTE ]
Chomsky is likely the originator of the website Jews for allah (http://www.jews-for-allah.org/).

He's a PoS, to be kind...

[Justaguy]

[ QUOTE ]
Dr_Gonzo said:
There is a big difference between being against Israel's actions against the Palestinians and being anti-Semitic.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not on this board! You can't even be pro-American here if it doesn't toe the pro-Israel line!!! No amount of documented facts are going to change that either. Trust me... I know.