View Full Version : A very sad story about an old subject.
abestreet
08-21-2004, 03:10 PM
I read this story (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=40024) and I was depressed by the time I reached the end of it. Abortion has been debated for decades now and the nation still seems to be split down the middle. I didn't post this just to start a debate but rather to make a statement.
I have strong religious beliefs that lead me to believe that abortion is murder and I believe science supports my religious beliefs. I believe that our nation will pay a price for the millions of lives it has snuffed out in the womb. For those that don't believe in a God that believes abortion is murder and a sin I'm sure my opinions mean squat. That's fine, I could care less what you think of me. I just hope you are basing your decisions on abortion based on something other than your own want to belive abortion is nothing more than a surgical procdure that removes tissue from a woman. I hope your disdain of my beliefs isn't blinding you to the horrors that our government is allowing to take place and encouraging to take place.
If I'm wrong than I die a fool. If your wrong I really hope when you die and your judgment day comes you are found by God to be a fool and not a willing participant in what is probably the worst crime against humanity in the history of the world.
Not all who have abortions are selfish, many are terribly misinformed and ignorant of the consequences of what abortion can bring.
Some though will do it irregardless.
That is selfishness.
many things can break a nation, selfishness, self-centeredness, cruelty, crimes, immorality and more
Preide goeth before the fall.
and those promoting abortion as a means for 'women to have control over their own bodies' are the height of pride.
[ QUOTE ]
'you can have total control over your own body'
But its abortion, its murder.
'No its not, all abortion does is give you absolute control over your own body, YOU get to decide when you want life to grow in your womb, in effect you will be your own god'
but he told me things would be fine, and it would be fun.
'yes, all men will say that to take advantage of you. They are only thinking of themselves.'
But wouldnt abortion be me thinking of myself?
'No, abortion gives YOU power over your own body and over the man.'
But wouldnt abortion help men take advantage of women easier?
'NO, men wont be able to get you pregnant and you will have total control over your own body, men wont be able to have a say over what is within your body anylonger, it takes man out of the equation.'
but men wont get into trouble for getting a girl pregnant if we have abortions.
'Maybe, but it denies men the right of say over what goes on with your body, hence you will become unto yourself a god, and be able to do as you please without anyone telling you otherwise.'
[/ QUOTE ]
-----------------------
Do you see the gist of this argument?
Abortion is the same argument that satan had with eve in the garden of eden.
YOU will have control over your body, YOU will be god of your own womb, and YOU will be the ONLY one who decides when you get pregnant, not nature, not God, not man.
YOU the woman.
Pride goeth before the fall.
Kathy29
08-21-2004, 03:45 PM
Should the mother have just quietly died then?
Davina Chambers, 29, became pregnant this year with her fourth child, but she had just been diagnosed with autoimmune hepatitis, a disease eating away at her liver.
The child might not survive the mother's treatment and be anything remotely normal after abdominal radiation scans.
"At the time I was taking eight tablets a day and had all this radiation from the scans.
As horrible as it is, this is one case where abortion was necessary and reasonable under the circumstances.
if you wish to know, Pregnancy can actually help people with Autoimmune hepatitis
In effect she used her health prob as an excuse to have an abortion.
Had she carried the child her health would have improved, its a fact.
Heres a link to what I was referring to:
Improvement of autoimmune hepatitis during pregnancy followed by flare-up after delivery (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=124922 04&dopt=Abstract)
READ
hepatitis C is different from what this woman had.
In all likely the hepatitis she had would be threatening to her baby, not to her.
the excuse that she had to abort due to risks to her health is not true.
abestreet
08-21-2004, 05:19 PM
[ QUOTE ]
As horrible as it is, this is one case where abortion was necessary and reasonable under the circumstances.
[/ QUOTE ]
If the mother to be is definately, beyond the shadow of a doubt, going to die due to the pregnancy than I think an abortion may be the right choice. I just don't trust doctors. When my wife was pregnant with our, now 10 year old, little girl she was adivsed by two doctors to abort the fetus. They thought the fetus had some kind of spinal disorder and that it would not survive the birthing procudure. If the fetus did survive the procedure it would most likely have physical problems. To this day I don't know what disorder they thought our little girl had or why they thought she wouldn't survive.
All I know is that we have a healthy 10 year old girl. Perhaps they misread the ultrasound pictures and thought they saw something that wasn't there, I don't know. I do know my wife was very troubled by the experience and insisted on carrying the pregnancy to term because she felt that it was wrong to end the pregnancy with out more definite proof. To this day we thank God that the doctors were wrong. I should mention that she was in no danger physical danger from the pregnancy herself. So my example is not the same as the one in the article.
More on pregnancy and the liver:
pregnancy and the Liver (http://www.liverfoundation.org/db/articles/1078)
[ QUOTE ]
How does pregnancy affect the liver? Are there changes in liver function?
Pregnancy has little effect on a normal liver. There are no significant changes in liver function; however, certain markers of liver function may alter slightly during normal pregnancy. For example, blood levels of the protein albumin will decrease during pregnancy because of dilution of the expectant mother’s blood. In addition, the blood test for alkaline phosphatase, usually taken as an indicator of liver disease, will increase during normal pregnancy because of a production of this marker by a normal placenta. This small change does not indicate liver disease.
At what stage of fetal development does a liver start functioning? What are the stages of development for the child’s liver?
The liver first appears in a developing fetus as early as the third week of pregnancy, although liver function probably does not begin until the sixth to tenth week of pregnancy. Liver function continues to develop over the remainder of pregnancy, but the liver’s ability to handle such compounds as bilirubin and bile acids is still not fully mature even at the time of birth. Adult-level liver function probably develops by six to 12 months of age. During childhood, liver function is essentially that of the normal adult, except that the liver is appropriately smaller in the young child compared to an adult.
Should pregnant women be tested for hepatitis B and C?
It is now recommended that all pregnant women be tested during the last two to three months of pregnancy for the presence of the hepatitis B virus. Babies born to women carrying the hepatitis B virus are at considerable risk of contracting hepatitis B immediately after delivery. Preventive measures given to babies include vaccination against the hepatitis B virus right after birth and administration of a special gamma globulin preparation for immediate protection. These measures prevent 90-95% of transmission and provide the baby with long-term protection.
Babies born to women carrying the hepatitis C virus are very unlikely to contract hepatitis C, although transmission can occur. There is no specific preventive treatment available. Therefore, currently, there are no recommendations to test women for hepatitis C.
Can women who are infected with viral hepatitis become pregnant?
Yes, especially if their liver has not been seriously damaged.
Should babies be vaccinated for hepatitis B?
If the mother does not carry the hepatitis B virus but other family members do, then babies and young children should probably be vaccinated as early as possible. (It is now recommended that all children ultimately receive vaccination against hepatitis B as well, since it is a preventable infection that may occur at any time.)
http://www.liverfoundation.org/db/articles/1078
Can mothers who are infected with hepatitis B or C breastfeed their babies?
Mothers who are infected with hepatitis B may breastfeed their babies, especially if the babies have received appropriate vaccination. It is not known whether the hepatitis C virus can be transmitted in breast milk. This, however, seems to be a low risk.
Can a nursing mother take interferon, the drug for hepatitis B or C, or will it harm the baby?
A nursing mother may take interferon for hepatitis B or C. It is not known, however, whether the interferon will have any effects on the nursing baby. Because interferon treatment of chronic hepatitis B or C is elective, it would probably be wise to give a mother interferon before she becomes pregnant or after she has finished nursing.
Can a woman with autoimmune hepatitis become pregnant and give birth to a healthy baby?
Yes. However, if the autoimmune hepatitis is active, women are much less fertile and are likely to have many complications during pregnancy. Thus, it is recommended that women with autoimmune hepatitis first receive appropriate treatment to obtain control of their disease before they become pregnant. They are frequently treated with prednisone, an anti-inflammatory drug that depresses the immune system, which is considered to be safe during pregnancy. Women with uncontrolled serious autoimmune hepatitis and those who have already developed cirrhosis from autoimmune hepatitis may experience complications of liver disease during pregnancy, and their babies are at a higher risk of premature delivery and fetal death. Those babies who are born, however, are normal.
Women with autoimmune hepatitis who require continued use of prednisone to maintain remissions may well be able to become pregnant and carry a fetus to term. However, they should continue use of prednisone during pregnancy as the disease may flare up.
[/ QUOTE ]
So in some respects this woman used her medical condition as an excuse to abort her baby.
I have no pity for people such as that.
HomeschoolrsRUs
08-21-2004, 10:19 PM
[ QUOTE ]
MATTERS OF LIFE AND DEATH
Aborted baby's head left inside woman
Couple horrified to find face of child after returning home
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: August 19, 2004
1:00 a.m. Eastern
© 2004 WorldNetDaily.com
Davina Chambers, 29, became pregnant this year with her fourth child, ...
[/ QUOTE ]
Okay, first I would like to ask, does this woman NOT know about birth control? Nothing was mentioned about this, and I believe this is pertinent to the issue.
[ QUOTE ]
From The Article,
Quote Davina Chambers:
"At midnight, my ex-partner knocked on the door to check if I was all right...."
[/ QUOTE ]
Next, this does NOT say ex-husband, it says ex-PARTNER. What a lack of concern for her children. This woman is out for her OWN gratification. She ALREADY has 3 children .... surely she KNOWS what MAKES them?!!! She mentions in the article ...
Quote Davina Chambers:
"My children have always been my priorities. They're my angels."
Sounds to me like she doesn't give a hoot-or-a-whittle for them. Did she even BOTHER to marry the father (of any of them, if they were fathered by one or more men)? If your children are your priorities, and she has THREE mind you, you don't have enough TIME for SEX. I have two (living), am happily married, am a stay-at-home homeschooling mother, and I barely have enough time to even kiss Bubba much less hootchie-kootchie! (Well, you know what I mean.)
No, I'm sorry, I look at things a little differently. Let's go back hundreds of years to before legal abortions, before being able to abort children because you found out you were "ill" with something or other. There was a time when there was no choice to murder ... you were pregnant -- you had the baby, you were ill -- you had the baby, you might die -- you had the baby. You know, my heart hurts for those women who suffer tragedies, such as illness and medical conditions, but the fact of the matter is, it is NEVER the baby's fault ... it didn't ask to be conceived, so therefore it shouldn't be punished.
Just because we CAN do something, doesn't mean we SHOULD, nor does it make it RIGHT. That child MIGHT have been born with deformities, abnormalities, or ill, but it also might not. When we begin terminating life because of what MIGHT be, we are playing God, I don't care how the statistics read. And IF a child is born with these conditions, isn't that better than DEATH? I personally believe ALL life has, and serves, a purpose.
I don't believe in abortion in ANY case. I already chose that option once, and will forever, for the rest of my life, suffer the consequences.
Sorry mom but if she knew about her condition she has had to know the medical consequences of pregnancy, she isnt completely and absolutely brainless about it.
Doctors Must disclose all possible options for this woman or else they will get in serious trouble.
i dont believe one bit that this woman 'didnt know' she knew alright and didnt care, she used her health problem as an excuse to abort a healthy baby, and to me there is no excuse to not know.
Not with the available information that is out there today over the many health problems such as this.
This woman wasnt living in a cave isolated from the world.
she knew and still she chose to kill her unborn child.
IF you noticed most that have Hepatitis C usually have a hard time getting pregnant, so why bother with birth control? she already had three children.
This woman KNEW all about her health problems and didnt care she got pregnant and it was an inconvenience to her and to allay people and get sympathy she used her health problem as an excuse.
For me just like Homeschool says there is no excuse.
and i dont have any pity for a woman that does what this one did using her hepatitis C as an excuse to abort.
.
Sorry but she knew, and I have no respect for people that use their medical condition as an excuse to abort.
Do you hear what people here are asking?
people here are asking why she didnt use birth control.
Read the article on hep C, it makes it very difficult for a woman to have children, This woman KNEW all about her medical condition and pregnancy, and when she got pregnant she was not happy to be 'burdened' with another child hence she opted for abortion by using the excuse she had a 'dangerous medical condition' when she KNEW abouit it and all the ins and outs of it, she knew with close dr supervision she could have had that child without much problems.
there are risks in pregnancy but it ususually is to the child not to the mother.
This woman was NOT ignorant about her condition, she didnt use birth control because she thought her hepatitis C would eliminate any possible pregnancies, and when she got pregnant she aborted!
She isnt Ignorant.
People with hepatitis c have been able to deliver healthy babies with a minimal risk or problem, so her excuse was LAME
at a certain point pregnancies being terminated after a certain amount of gestation time can be risky, she did it before that timeframe.
She already knew about hepatitic C, she wasnt 'misled' by the medical profession, thats a load o bunk
She is a selfish turd wanting 'sympathy' when the abortion got botched.
Tisk tisk too bad, aint comin from me darlin.
I wont make excuses for her.
She knew
radiation? for what? a tumor?
she's playin on peoples ignorance.
radiation from normal run of the mill scans, Yea real Dangerous alright!
If you read the articles I found on this disease you will see she could have taken medication during the pregnancy with close doctor supervision.
as for the scans, the radiation is minimal if it is so dangerous then she should be developing cancer by now from them, its just a lame-o excuse from her.
Read the article for yourself, shes using every excuse under the sun for what she did.
[ QUOTE ]
<font size=4>MATTERS OF LIFE AND DEATH
Aborted baby's head left inside woman
Couple horrified to find face of child after returning home</font>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: August 19, 2004
1:00 a.m. Eastern
© 2004 WorldNetDaily.com
A British hospital is now investigating the case of a woman who had an abortion, but then was shocked to find out the head of her unborn baby had been left inside her.
Davina Chambers, 29, became pregnant this year with her fourth child, but she had just been diagnosed with autoimmune hepatitis, a disease eating away at her liver.
"In January, I was a patient at King's College Hospital (http://www.kingsch.nhs.uk/) because I was jaundiced," Chambers told the Voice, which bills itself as Britain's best black newspaper. "The doctors wanted me to stay in the hospital, but after a week I told them that they had to let me out because I had to go home to take care of my three children. My children have always been my priorities. They're my angels."
Chambers became an outpatient at the facility, going in for checkups every two weeks as she needed continual monitoring.
It was during routine medical tests she discovered she was 12 weeks pregnant.
"At the time I was taking eight tablets a day and had all this radiation from the scans, so I couldn't believe that I could be pregnant," she told the paper.
Chambers made the difficult decision to have an abortion.
More on this story (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=40024)
[/ QUOTE ]
She sure didnt know she was preggers! she sure was misinformed alright
baloney!
HomeschoolrsRUs
08-22-2004, 10:49 PM
I stand by everything I said. Abortion is murder, I don't care the circumstances, I don't care the reasons, I don't care the excuses ... it's murder, plain and simple. No one can tell me that what she "found" was anything OTHER than a human baby's head.
I do feel bad for people in tough situations. I do feel they deserve all the help they can get ... as long as it is help and not facilitation of bad, dangerous, or immoral behavior. Bad situations do not release them from making decisions, good or bad. Circumstances can be bad ... single parent homes, widowed moms, unwed parents, etc., but we all live with the consequences of our actions and circumstances.
I condemn no one for the bad things that happened / happen in their lives --- how can I, I am a sinner just the same as everyone else. I have sinned in this particular area, myself, so I do know a little about what I speak too.
This topic was posted, and in responding to it we can only deduce information from information we are given, and then we post an opinion based upon that information .... this article makes it appear as if this woman was unmarried and pregnant suffering a terrible medical condition / illness. The first thing that I thought of reading this was why would she be having sex anyway if he was suffering so. Secondly, with three children already, I would be doing EVERYTHING in my power to assure there would not be a fourth .... mainly, I would NOT be having sex outside of marriage. So here we have a culmination of bad decisions / bad choices, and a baby results. Whose fault is it, hers or the child's? Should the child DIE because of her decisions? I firmly believe GOD ordains life, then allows us to conceive it. If that then is the case, who are we to play God and decide who lives and dies -- certainly much less so based upon the opinions of doctors, for they are only human too.
This woman's responsibility goes back further than whether she knew she was pregnant or not when she found out she was ill. It goes back to the moment she chose to have sex (while unmarried, if that is the case proven and) having three children already. If she was married, it still doesn't make it right, in my eyes or opinion, to kill the child regardless of her medical condition.
You seem to not be reading the article I had just posted, they had tested her every two weeks and found her pregnant,
[ QUOTE ]
Chambers became an outpatient at the facility, going in for checkups every two weeks as she needed continual monitoring.
It was during routine medical tests she discovered she was 12 weeks pregnant.
"At the time I was taking eight tablets a day and had all this radiation from the scans, so I couldn't believe that I could be pregnant," she told the paper.
[/ QUOTE ]
Please carefully read the article in question, this is not comparable to your daughter, this is a woman who was found to be pregnant by tests done when she was in her 12th week and after that fact she was going to the dr for monitoring every two weeks, and yet she whines about the 'dangers of the radiation' and the medicines she is taking.
And yet the medical community says this on the medication taken for the autoimmune hepatitis C:
[ QUOTE ]
Can a nursing mother take interferon, the drug for hepatitis B or C, or will it harm the baby?
A nursing mother may take interferon for hepatitis B or C. It is not known, however, whether the interferon will have any effects on the nursing baby. Because interferon treatment of chronic hepatitis B or C is elective, it would probably be wise to give a mother interferon before she becomes pregnant or after she has finished nursing.
Can a woman with autoimmune hepatitis become pregnant and give birth to a healthy baby?
Yes. However, if the autoimmune hepatitis is active, women are much less fertile and are likely to have many complications during pregnancy. Thus, it is recommended that women with autoimmune hepatitis first receive appropriate treatment to obtain control of their disease before they become pregnant. They are frequently treated with prednisone, an anti-inflammatory drug that depresses the immune system, which is considered to be safe during pregnancy. Women with uncontrolled serious autoimmune hepatitis and those who have already developed cirrhosis from autoimmune hepatitis may experience complications of liver disease during pregnancy, and their babies are at a higher risk of premature delivery and fetal death. Those babies who are born, however, are normal.
Women with autoimmune hepatitis who require continued use of prednisone to maintain remissions may well be able to become pregnant and carry a fetus to term. However, they should continue use of prednisone during pregnancy as the disease may flare up.
[/ QUOTE ]
Do please READ what has been posted and stated here.
The woman knew that having hepatitis C would reduce her chances of getting pregnant, she elected to not take birth control, as to the article it states birth control can cause problems.
This woman was not Ignorant as to her condition and she was NOT unknowing about her pregnancy as their twice a week exams found her to be pregnant at 12 weeks.
She KNEW she knew all along, she had the option of following her Doctors cloesly, the medication given to treat her medical condition was not deemed damaging to the child, the tests which are done twice a week are not damaging enough for her anymore than it would have her child, as the liver is WAY above that of where her ovaries were at and anyone that has had a CAT scan should know they are Very specific in how they scan you using such procedures.
The ONLY way an radiation would be too damaging is if she had numerous x-rays more than once a week.
and even at that it still would not even be CLOSE to where her womb would be at to fuss over.
What she used as excuses were copouts, I have read everything I have posted, I have researched this carefully to understand the situation to be damn certain of the fact on the medicines to the scans et al.
that woman is a whiney liar and used her medical condition as an Excuse to abort her baby.
the doctors even said Being pregnant does NOT affect a person with hepatits C's liver enough to warrant worry.
complications yes, but then again ANYONE that gets pregnant could have complications.
I still say this woman had no excuse, and there was no excuse to kill her unborn child.
NO damn excuses!
Have you read the friggin ARTICLE????
she was NOT getting radiation TREATMENTS
they were SCANS
NOT Treatments, they do not treat her medical condition with Radiation.
Read the damn article AGAIN
Here you go ONCE MORE!
[ QUOTE ]
It was during routine medical tests she discovered she was 12 weeks pregnant.
"At the time I was taking eight tablets a day and had all this radiation from the scans, so I couldn't believe that I could be pregnant," she told the paper.
Chambers made the difficult decision to have an abortion.
[/ QUOTE ]
There's no excuses.
Absolutely NONE, she knew about her medical condition, she understood it all, she was not an ignoramus that had absolutely no idea of the consequences of pregnancy.
http://digestive.niddk.nih.gov/ddiseases/pubs/autoimmunehep/images/liver.gif
Do tell me just How close the liver is to the ovaries in a woman? from this pic?
Scans are not x-rays, and again the point in matter of fact that Women take the pill, men use condoms, and in her 12th week from regular checkups they found her to be pregnant.
Only 12 weeks dear.
she didnt wait 6 to 8 months to find out she was pregnant.
3 months at best.
and STILL if you read the articles I have stated they state the medicines used to control hepatitis C is not dangerous to the unborn child.
even people with cirrihosis can carry a child to term and that child can be healthy.
I'll still say it that woman used her medical condition as an excuse to abort her child.
Sorry but re-read the articles stated.
You didnt have autoimmune hepatitic C, you werent going to the dr twice a week for regular checkups, this woman was, and they Found her to be pregnant at 12 weeks and at that time she decided to abort.
why?
She used her medical condition as a lame-o excuse.
Sorry I will disagree with both you and magnumom over this, there was no excuse, this woman understood her medical condition and understood more than she is letting on.
No Bloody Excuse
HarvickFan29
08-22-2004, 11:29 PM
Rink, it seems like you are assuming ALOT that is not stated in the article. How can you know what the woman knew in her mind?
HarvickFan29
08-22-2004, 11:43 PM
From the article: "He even tried to take the head away, but I said I wanted to keep it because we wanted to have a proper burial."
Uh, it's illogical to think that a fetus, growing inside the womb, not visible, isn't a life or worth birth but a head outside is life and worth proper burial? That logic just slaps me in the face as really screwed up. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon122.gif
From the article: A distraught Chambers is now seeking legal advice on what to do next.
Hmmm.....I bet she is.
"I feel as if I'm going insane now; I can't just let this happen to me," she said.
Imagine how the fetus that was developing into a baby inside you felt about it.
CaliGirl
08-22-2004, 11:44 PM
<Yawn> /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon2.gif
HarvickFan29
08-22-2004, 11:45 PM
Cali, are we keeping you awake? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif
HomeschoolrsRUs
08-22-2004, 11:52 PM
HarvickFan29,
I know exactly what you mean. I have often wondered about the difference between a pregnant woman on the way to the obstetrician's office involved in an automobile accident where the baby was lost, and the pregnant woman on the way to the doctor's office to have an abortion who gets in an automobile accident where the "fetus" was lost.
There are actually cases where the guilty driver is charged with double homicide (when the pre-born baby is lost). How can THAT be murder but abortion isn't?
It has ALWAYS been my contention, abortion is NOT about whether or not a fetus is a baby, or whether a fetus is a person, or whether a fetus is alive .... it is about whether a baby (fetus) is WANTED or if it is INCONVENIENT.
I will mortgage EVERYTHING I own and PAY the first person that PROVES to me a pregnant woman (pregnant with a "fetus") will give birth to ANYTHING other than a human baby .... conception causes the building blocks of human life to be fused, formed, and created. THAT is LIFE, human life .... not a bunch of cells. It won't spontaneously grow into something else.
[ QUOTE ]
HarvickFan29 said:
Rink, it seems like you are assuming ALOT that is not stated in the article. How can you know what the woman knew in her mind?
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not the one second-guessing this woman, its magnumom thats doin that.
After 10 weeks a child is fully formed, all it needs is to fill out that fully formed human being.
this woman was 12 weeks pregnant, I read the story i go on what I have read on the story and what I have read on the condition of her medical condition autoimmune hepatitis C.
she already knew about her medical condition, she was not ignorant, she wasnt a brainless idiot that lived ignorantly of her condition.
she knew, why else would she USE her health condition as an excuse hoping most wont know about hepatitic C and the facts that most women with that condition can not only get pregnant but also carry a child to term and a healthy child at that too.
Please read the article and the medical condition, because I put time into reading and researching that and more over it to understand what it is I am discussing.
HarvickFan29
08-23-2004, 12:08 AM
Oh, excuse me, Dr. Rink. I forget only YOU know what it is you are discussing. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif
Well its obvious you havent read any of it, as per your ignoramus replies.
You arent always right harv and neither am I but I took the time to research this.
Have you?
HarvickFan29
08-23-2004, 12:14 AM
Hms, to answer your question....If it's intentional (as in abortion), it's not murder, and if it's not-intentional (as in your car accident scenario) it's considered murder! It just beats the crap outta me. I guess because the SCOTUS said so, then, it's to be! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif
read the stuff I posted? or did you even bother to do so Mom?
Prednisone they have stated was not deemed dangerous to the unborn child when treating hepatitic C!
HarvickFan29
08-23-2004, 12:22 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Rink said:
Well its obvious you havent read any of it, as per your ignoramus replies.
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh, screw you, Rink! If my replies are ignoramus then you are a braindead sheep. Get a grip.
Rink said: You arent always right harv and neither am I but I took the time to research this.
Have you?
You should calm down. I never professed to always be right. It's too tough of a job. I don't want it.
Now, back to the subject....Why try to get in the woman's head about what she knew and when she knew it? The abortion was either a medical necessity (and we know how rare they are) or it wasn't. Why not base it on that instead of what you can't verify?
CaliGirl
08-23-2004, 12:24 AM
[ QUOTE ]
HarvickFan29 said:
Cali, are we keeping you awake? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually you are putting me to SLEEP. This topic has been posted to many times. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon51.gif <YAWN> I am bored with the topic....been there and done that many TIMES... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smack.gif
[ QUOTE ]
HarvickFan29 said:
[ QUOTE ]
Rink said:
Well its obvious you havent read any of it, as per your ignoramus replies.
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh, screw you, Rink! If my replies are ignoramus then you are a braindead sheep. Get a grip.
Rink said: You arent always right harv and neither am I but I took the time to research this.
Have you?
You should calm down. I never professed to always be right. It's too tough of a job. I don't want it.
Now, back to the subject....Why try to get in the woman's head about what she knew and when she knew it? The abortion was either a medical necessity (and we know how rare they are) or it wasn't. Why not base it on that instead of what you can't verify?
[/ QUOTE ]
Funny when arguin a subject You're always right and it seems everyone else is in the wrong no matter how many facts are thrown into your face dear.
That woman Said she was told she was Pregnant at 12 weeks from a normal exam, might wanna go re-read the story Once again please, so you can someday finally get it right this time?
he he he so true, so true and its so much fun needlin a little bit to make the debate lively! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon29.gif
HarvickFan29
08-23-2004, 12:43 AM
Rink said: Funny when arguin a subject You're always right and it seems everyone else is in the wrong no matter how many facts are thrown into your face dear.
WTF are you talking about? Where have I said I was right, and everyone is wrong? You aren't dealing in facts when you try to say what this woman knew and what she didn't.
That woman Said she was told she was Pregnant at 12 weeks from a normal exam, might wanna go re-read the story Once again please, so you can someday finally get it right this time?
Hello!!!!!!! I've read the story, and the entire thread. So, has everyone else. SO????????? She had an abortion. Was it necessary? That's the question. I don't give a shit what you THINK you know about this woman and neither does anyone else.
most the articles I have read state women with hepatitic C can carry a child to term and that child can be born healthy and normal.
the 'concerns' for the child is pretty nil when it comes to the fact this woman used her medical condition as an excuse to terminate her pregnancy citing health concerns for herself which again was negligent when kept in constant monitoring by a doctor the health risks can be minimized.
as with any pregnancy you will have risks, this isnt any different, and the risks can be minimized if the woman in conjunction with the doctors keep a close watch over her and her unborn, she could have carried this child to full term in a healthy way for herself and her child, but she chose otherwise.
Which to me shows she really copped out instead of actually trying.
HomeschoolrsRUs
08-23-2004, 01:06 AM
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HarvickFan29 said:
Hms, to answer your question....If it's intentional (as in abortion), it's not murder, and if it's not-intentional (as in your car accident scenario) it's considered murder! It just beats the crap outta me. I guess because the SCOTUS said so, then, it's to be! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif
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You're right HarvickFan29. Funny though, wouldn't you think they would want to settle the thing once and for all and make a ruling on WHEN life begins? Once they did that, the pro-life position wouldn't have a leg to stand on (so to speak).
I guess I'm just an all-or-nothing kinda gal. To me either life is or it isn't ... there's no such thing as being a little bit pregnant, you are or you aren't. I'm of the black-and-white persuasion that if you have an abortion, no matter the stage, no matter the reason, no matter the cause, no matter the circumstance, that's murder -- human life ends, ceases to be in existence, termination ensues.
At the point where it is IMMINENT life or death, carried to term as far as the body would allow, no way on Heaven or Earth to deliver the baby without killing both, THEN I might concede sparing the life of the mother -- but all the while doing EVERYTHING in his/her power to save BOTH lives, not purposefully terminating one (baby) to purposefully save the other (mother).
I just don't see how the SCOTUS can live with its rulings in this area -- it is so blatantly obvious that the scenario that I suppoosed, is an EQUAL account. BOTH women were pregnant, BOTH babies died by the actions of another, BOTH children were killed / murdered.
But then again many women have managed to carry a baby to full term with little or no problems and the child is healthy as well.
so how do you acount for the evidence that people with autoimmune hepatitis C can still carry a child to term with no harm to the child and little risk to the mother?
HarvickFan29
08-23-2004, 01:29 AM
Funny though, wouldn't you think they would want to settle the thing once and for all and make a ruling on WHEN life begins?
I'd just settle for the fact that they don't know where life truly begins and ends (not play God) so they would then give LIFE the benefit of the doubt. No more abortion on demand.
I'm of the black-and-white persuasion that if you have an abortion, no matter the stage, no matter the reason, no matter the cause, no matter the circumstance, that's murder -- human life ends, ceases to be in existence, termination ensues.
I'm also against abortion for any reason, especially abortion on demand/birth control. I do realize there are rare cases where it is a medical necessity but in this story, I'm inclined to believe the woman and the doctors are equally responsible here but just don't have all the facts needed for complete conclusions how.
Indeed but then again thats the risks we take for life.
but if a child dies in the womb it is not abortion willingly, as its an accident, but if a woman goes about willingly having an abortion without Even trying to do her best for that child, that is plain simply MURDER
no three ways about it, only black and white, left or right right or wrong, no inbetween.
there is no inbetween when it comes to Life, you either chose or you dont.
take your choice and chances with life and fight for it the best you can, if you still loose the baby you cant say you havent tried.
but if you willingly go abort a child, you never even tried, ya Coped out, you wimped You willingly murdered a human being forming within your womb.
do some regret it> You bet they do, but then again some dont and can still sleep well a t night without a hitch, some who have children Do love their children but STILL they will continue to abort their children irregardless because having anymore can be such a 'burden' upon their already 'crimped' lifestyle
Sorry if this is harsh its the truth believe me I know one that has a child and loves her child yet has had abortions before and since then but still wishes to have a child, yet the world revolves only around her, her child is her world and if it wasnt it wouldnt matter to her. yes its harsh You bet your bippy its harsh I have a right to speak that way of this person, it isnt just a 'friend' its a relative, and believe you me, she is SELFISH as hell and always will be i think to the day she dies.
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magnummom said:
I think if i was told that i would not carry the baby to full term that i would miscarry that i would do what this woman did. That sickens me but that is one time that perhaps it may be a health reason. Again i stated i think i would... i just don't know.. as i am not in those shoes.
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Luv thats what makes us different, I would have carried irregadless of what the doctor has stated because Doctors are not gods, they cannot know the entire outcome of a pregnancy, its a risk, yes, but still I will Always Opt for LIFE
Always.
One point, you dont know if she was told she may miscarry, so now who is reading INTO this story? me or you?
I will agree though the dr that did the abortion Really botched it but good and needs to be held accountable.
BUT I have no pity for any who uses their medical condition as an excuse to abort.
sorry not on yer life will I pity someone like that.
abestreet
08-23-2004, 06:08 AM
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Actually you are putting me to SLEEP. This topic has been posted to many times. <YAWN> I am bored with the topic....been there and done that many TIMES...
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My point of posting the article, and it was not made clear in my statement, was not just to debate abortion but to discuss the possibility that doctors advise abortion without fully explaining the ramifications of the procudure. This woman, for whatever reason, allowed herself to be persuaded to have an abortion. After having the abortion and having her childs face pass through her at home she obviously regretted her choice. I wonder if she would have chosen an abortion if the doctors had fully explained the procedures or showed her images of the fetus that would be removed from her.
In the end the decision was the mothers and she has to live with her choice. However, I do feel the medical field is not upfront about all the aspects involving an abortion or other options.
HomeschoolrsRUs
08-23-2004, 06:51 AM
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HomeschoolrsRUs said, Funny though, wouldn't you think they would want to settle the thing once and for all and make a ruling on WHEN life begins?
HarvickFan29 said:
I'd just settle for the fact that they don't know where life truly begins and ends (not play God) so they would then give LIFE the benefit of the doubt. No more abortion on demand.
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Oh I ABSOTIVELY POSILUTELY agree with you. If they would err on the side of not knowing, which IS the truth and will never be proven (when), that would definitely solve the problem to the satisfaction of me, and the pro-life community. BUT if they were to make a specific determination (even though they can't because we are not God), then that would effectively shut the pro-life community up, and down. Once SCOTUS rules that's that, right? I don't know, I just don't understand this whole thing.
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HomeschoolrsRUs said, I'm of the black-and-white persuasion that if you have an abortion, no matter the stage, no matter the reason, no matter the cause, no matter the circumstance, that's murder -- human life ends, ceases to be in existence, termination ensues.
]HarvickFan29 said:I'm also against abortion for any reason, especially abortion on demand/birth control. I do realize there are rare cases where it is a medical necessity but in this story, I'm inclined to believe the woman and the doctors are equally responsible here but just don't have all the facts needed for complete conclusions how.
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Well, I don't know ALL the ends and outs, I'm not a medical professional, but in my unprofessional mind I cannot reason out what medical necessity would cause me to terminate the life of my child (again -- I have certainly wised up since the first time /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/sad.gif )
As for this particular incident, I think both the patient and the doctor are equally culpable. If, as has been asserted, this woman did not know she was pregnant, and it is possible to be pregnant and not know it, AND the fact that medicine is not an exact science, I can completely see how this abortion was botched and part of the child left inside her. I'ts not like they open you up and take a flashlight to look around. I'm not so inclined to push for a legal settlement, as perhaps to get this physician's ability to perform abortions stopped -- barr him from performing abortions anymore. There are risks inherint with any medical procedure, she suffered one, but this was an elective procedure (unless the doctor TOLD her to have it, in which case he should be barred from practicing medicine at all.) A doctor's primary responsibility is to "...first do no harm." But that is what he was required to do as per this procedure, KILL the child and remove it from the mother's womb.
If we take the tak that life is ordained by God, but conceived by man, then to me that solves the problem. Only God can give and take life, not man, therefore abortion is wrong, is murder, and should never be performed. But I am not so hardheaded as to realize, and be willing to settle for, abortion ONLY in the rarest of occasions when imminent danger is present to mother AND child would certainly cut down on abortions in total.
We must handle things the way the liberals do, gradually, one small step at a time. So far, it appears, we are moving in the right direction with the Partial Birth Abortion ban, and push for parental notification and approval.
HarvickFan29
08-23-2004, 10:09 AM
MM, I don't guess you're getting it. See, Rink, thinks she knows so we are supposed to take that as the truth, as what really happened because RinkTHINKS so!
HarvickFan29
08-23-2004, 10:21 AM
Rink has read into it that this woman got pregnant on purpose. She contends that the woman then used abortion as birth control. I don't care to jump to such inferences. The woman had an an abortion that didn't seem necessary to me (based on the article) but we don't know for sure if her health or the baby's was at such a risk that carrying the baby to term would threaten either life because we were not privy to that info.
We know the hospital screwed up the abortion, and could have screwed up the entire medical case as far as that is concerned.
We don't know but since Rink insists, we're supposed to take it as the truth.
HarvickFan29
08-23-2004, 10:26 AM
Abe wrote: I wonder if she would have chosen an abortion if the doctors had fully explained the procedures or showed her images of the fetus that would be removed from her.
In the end the decision was the mothers and she has to live with her choice. However, I do feel the medical field is not upfront about all the aspects involving an abortion or other options.
Good points! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon16.gif I truly wonder what the laws are as to explaining the options available. I don't know what English law is regarding this either. It would help if we knew.
HarvickFan29
08-23-2004, 10:32 AM
MM, LOL! Yep, you're NOW up to speed! By cracky, you've got it!
HomeschoolrsRUs
08-23-2004, 10:33 AM
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magnummom said:
EXCELLENT POST... That is all i was trying to state that there are those rare cases and they do exist.. so for that reason and that reason only should abortions be allowed. As for the rest of them i agree fully with what you have said. I too learned a lesson the hard way.. one that never really truly leaves you. But what we can do is try to stop as many of them as we can and fight for them or pray for them to be banned outright, leaving room for that tiny miniscule women that it may indeed be immient.
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Thanks mom, I knew we were closer in agreement than the posts indicated. Sometimes that is the disadvantage to these types of "discussions," LOL. I'm always being accused not so much for WHAT I say, but for HOW I say it ... especially by my Mom, LOL.
You know, what you say about the doctor, now that is what truly bothers me. If they take an oath to do no harm, how can they justify performing abortions. Knowing the human body most intimately (considering they spent YEARS in education on the subject), they would HAVE to know life is life is life, and to terminate it is to do harm -- serious bodily harm, DEATH!
The other sad part is, the only way the abortion issue is going to be effective dealt with is by getting through to the hearts of people. The one bright side is, though, the only One who can truly do that, is God. So in a way, I guess, He has done it again ... used what Satan meant for bad for His good. I would say salvation is ultimately a better destination anyway, LOL.
HomeschoolrsRUs
08-23-2004, 10:45 AM
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kitten said:
I also am aginst abortion and would never get one for any reason. But I do feel when it is life threatening to the mother and or the child, the mother should be given a choice, especially is she has other children to take care of.
If it was so safe to have a baby when you are on treatment for hep. C then why was a girl I know whose mother had it, passed it to her? Why did her and her mom almost die at delivery? why did her mom become more ill after she had the child and got worse for about 16 years and it slowly killed her? umm so safe.
Why does the FDA say that when taking treatment for it you should have a reliable or multiple contraceptives and not become pregnant? If you do become pregnant and carry a baby and have the child the warnings for the medications say DO NOT BREASTFEED. Sounds safe to me although there are warnings saying it is not.
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Hey kitten, is this in response to my post or someone else's? Just for the record, I am not disputing any facts related to Hep C, x-rays, scans, etc. My point has been that ultimately, both the doctor AND the woman should be held responsible for this tragedy. I don't believe she has grounds for a lawsuit based on her culpability in the matter. But of course, there are lawyers out there that would sue their own parents just to make a point and get their names in the papers and on the telly, so it will probably happen.
I think maybe you meant to post to someone else's.
HarvickFan29
08-23-2004, 10:50 AM
But I do feel when it is life threatening to the mother and or the child, the mother should be given a choice,...
Kitten, which is why I have always been against banning abortion. We realize that it as a medical necessity is very rare indeed but there are those cases where the mother should have the final word. So, you're against abortion on demand, and as a form of birth control.
HomeschoolrsRUs
08-23-2004, 11:51 AM
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magnummom said:
Hms,, from what i have been able to get from the doctors i know is that they do detest abortions. The ones i know either get out of performing them by saying that is not their field and the patient needs to seek another doctor for that. The ones that i know that have had to do it have a very hard time with it. It takes something out of them each time they do it... but it is rare that they do them. IF they have to do one it is because of the type of practice they are in and by law they have to do so if it is requested of them. THat is why most pick and choose a field that they can be in that they can say no they don't do that. Alot of doctors have issues with this as they do with the suicide laws that were passed in oregon. I feel for them because it is very hard to go against all you stand for because the LAW says you have to. That really stinks.
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Wow, mom, that is a FAR CRY from the attitude around these parts (North Central Florida). I live in a college town (actually about 17 miles outside of it, our house is in a rural small town) with 3 abortion mills, one owned by the wife of a prominent local obstetrician, who performs all of the abortions at his wife's clinic! He happens to be the doc of one of my dearest and best friends. When I worked for the Crisis Pregnancy Center we had a list of doctors in the county that performed (and let it be specifically known that they do) abortions -- he was on the list, and it devastated me! My friend suffered many years of infertility problems, many medical procedures, and two miscarriages, all under his care. I never spoke to her about him, although one day many years after she was finally blessed with children, she told me she knew he performed abortions. In my heart of hearts, I always had a bad feeling about him being her doctor -- but it was her decision, none of my business. I just know if I were pregnant, I would NOT want an obstetrician who was well-known for his abortions. I came right out and ASKED my ob/gyn when I was preggers with my daughter -- he said he did NOT advertise himself as a practitioner of abortion, and that he was a Christian and would do everything in his power NOT to perform any. I know that's not the same as saying he has never done any, but it satisfied my desire to know where he stood on the issue of life.
Abortion is BIG BUSINESS where I am -- college town and all. I used to work in the Student Health Services of the college and was privy to medical records. I was absolutely ASTONISHED by how many of the students had had an abortion, and mortified by how many had had more than one!
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