Presidential Debate: Round 2 [Archive]

Naturalized-Texan

10-08-2004, 11:48 AM

Mr. Bush has had a tough week, and the September employment and job-creation report will make it even tougher.

The September employment and job-creation report is GOOD news. The unemployment rate of 5.4% is lower than the 5.6% rate that BJ Clinton was so proud of in 1996. Also, the 5.4% rate is lower than the unemployment rate in the 1970s, the 1980s, or the 1990s.

The September numbers haven't been posted by the Bureau of Labor Statistics (http://www.bls.gov/schedule/archives/empsit_nr.htm) yet, but through August 2004, 3.7 million more Americans were employed than when President Bush took office. That's almost miraculous when you consider that 2.5 million jobs were lost between Jan. 2001 and Jan. 2002 due to the Clinton Recession and the 9/11 attacks.

Putting it another way, 6.2 million more Americans were employed in August 2004 than at the end of the Clinton Recession in Jan. 2002.

tacitus

10-08-2004, 12:07 PM

N-T do you know if this figure includes those that work at their home businesses, or just those employed in the traditional jobs? Makes a big difference in the numbers!

nosferatuscoffin

10-08-2004, 12:36 PM

The traditional employment survey is based on calls to businesses, asking about employee count and payroll.

The Household Survey calls home and ask the residents there about there employment status. It is a more accurate count because it includes small, home-based businesses, that are not counted using the traditional, employer based survey.

Naturalized-Texan

10-08-2004, 12:39 PM

N-T do you know if this figure includes those that work at their home businesses, or just those employed in the traditional jobs? Makes a big difference in the numbers!

There are two surveys - the Household Survey and the Establishment Survey.

The Establishment Survey only surveys the employment in established busnesses. Under the Establishment Survey, the self-employed and those who are employed by the self-employed are NOT employed.

In the Household Survey they survey households to determine those who are employed. This survey included those employed by new businesses (it takes several months for a new business to become an established business), self-employed individuals, and those employed by self-employed individuals. That makes the Household Survey a much more accurate measure of employment. That's why the Household Survey is used to measure the unemployment rate.

The numbers I posted were the more accurate Household Survey figures.

The media report the employment rate from the Household Survey, but they report employment from the Establishment Survey because the numbers are lower and place Bush in a bad light. It's interesting to note that during the Clinton years, the media reported the Household Survey numbers, but switched to the lower Establishment Survey numbers after President Bush took office.

True American

10-08-2004, 03:29 PM

Gee! I must have missed something. I've watched the last two debates and I didn't see anything wrong with the outcome for Bush or Cheney. Democrats are always going to be a tad more flamboyant with their snide tactics and their wiley charm. It doesn't mean they know what they're talking about. It also doesn't mean they aren't full of BS. The American public is only too well aware of this after 8 years of Slick Willy.

We are at a threshold right now where fencesitters aren't looking to see who's hair looks best or who's teeth are the shiniest. These people don't want to hear sad sap stories of little Mary Imapeasant, these fence sitters are trying to figure out which candidate most suits their needs and wishes.

Kerry or Edwards simply saying, "More Of The Same!" isn't going to cut it. They will have to actually draw out a strategic plan to fix all the problems they CLAIM that our current administration has created. Truth is: They don't really have any plan.

Not everyone who remains undecided right now is as stupid as a Liberal Democrat. Many fence sitters are there because they have not yet HEARD what they need to hear. If George Bush tells them what they are waiting to hear, they will more than likely vote for him. Kerry doesn't really say anything substantial, so I'm not very concerned.

All one needs to do is this: Go to foxnews.com after the debate and watch it again after you've seen it live. Amazingly, you will see that G.W. is right on top of his game. Surely, the liberal media will show you only sound bites from Kerry which have made a point, but fence sitters aren't waiting for sound bites. Fence sitters are paying attention to the whole shabang!

BEST45CAL

10-08-2004, 04:07 PM

We are at a threshold right now where fencesitters aren't looking to see who's hair looks best or who's teeth are the shiniest. These people don't want to hear sad sap stories of little Mary Imapeasant, these fence sitters are trying to figure out which candidate most suits their needs and wishes.
I think your assertion regarding the fencesitters is right on. I think these types will pay particular attention to whether or not the candidates answer the questions directly, or go around them. Then they have to figure out who's lying and who's telling the truth.

Blowback

10-08-2004, 04:14 PM

All one needs to do is this: Go to foxnews.com after the debate and watch it again after you've seen it live. Amazingly, you will see that G.W. is right on top of his game. Surely, the liberal media will show you only sound bites from Kerry which have made a point, but fence sitters aren't waiting for sound bites. Fence sitters are paying attention to the whole shabang!

That is, unless those fence-sitters don't watch the debate and instead only go by those soundbites.

BEST45CAL

10-08-2004, 04:18 PM

The September employment and job-creation report is GOOD news. The unemployment rate of 5.4% is lower than the 5.6% rate that BJ Clinton was so proud of in 1996. Also, the 5.4% rate is lower than the unemployment rate in the 1970s, the 1980s, or the 1990s.

The September numbers haven't been posted by the Bureau of Labor Statistics (http://www.bls.gov/schedule/archives/empsit_nr.htm) yet, but through August 2004, 3.7 million more Americans were employed than when President Bush took office. That's almost miraculous when you consider that 2.5 million jobs were lost between Jan. 2001 and Jan. 2002 due to the Clinton Recession and the 9/11 attacks.

Putting it another way, 6.2 million more Americans were employed in August 2004 than at the end of the Clinton Recession in Jan. 2002.
I hope that the president has this information and is able to use it tonight.

The story that I read from FinancialTimes.com wasn't very encouraging. They claim: "...worst job creation record since Herbert Hoover in 1932."

True American

10-08-2004, 04:40 PM

That is, unless those fence-sitters don't watch the debate and instead only go by those soundbites.
Well, you do have a point there. LOL
However, fencesitters who don't attempt to see the debates probably aren't too serious about voting either.

I like to believe there are other party members we can try to reach. The Green Party will most likely go toward Democrat as a vote they know will be wasted on Nader. Of course, a Libertarian would "NEVER" vote Democrat! So, if they were to think their vote would be best placed on a major party, I'd say we can count on them.

We can only hope the fencesitters who WILL vote and the Libertarians who want their vote to count, will outnumber the Liberal Minded.

BEST45CAL

10-08-2004, 05:52 PM

I don't know why I have butterfiles. I'm not the one debating.

I'm looking for the president to come out of this one in much better shape than last week.

As for Kerry, he is consistently contradictory. I predict a repeat of last weeks performance.

Warlady

10-08-2004, 06:10 PM

The media will claim Kerry won no matter what Bush does. I'm with True American. I thought Bush did fine in the last debate. It's not very easy when you're limited to 90 second sound bytes. Best what we have to do is forget what the media says. They will try to use their influence to manipulate public opinion to Kerry's side. We know Bush won the last debate on substance. Kerry didn't gain anything of importance from the last debate. Bush is killing him in survey after survey on who is the stronger leader, who is more honest and believable and who is more likeable. And the two most important survey questions who is better at winning the war on terror and Iraq. Of course I consider Iraq part of the war on terror. I mean how obsurd was it for the media to project Edwards the winner before they even debated???????? They suck. Bush will do fine.

speed_addiction

10-08-2004, 06:31 PM

Even if Kerry (by some unfathomable miracle) does win. It will amount to little more than sticking his finger in the dike.

Warlady

10-08-2004, 06:51 PM

Also, don't expect any soft Bush supporters in the audience. Rush said today that the St Louis University is the most liberal college in MO. He knows. He grew up there. So Bush is walking into a lion's den.

nosferatuscoffin

10-08-2004, 06:58 PM

As usual, the audience will be full of "pony-tailed guy" plants who will offer their usual Oprah-crying-woe-is-me questions and look like a bunch of kindergarteners demanding that they be let out of class to go the bathroom right this minute.

Apollo5600

10-08-2004, 07:04 PM

This town-set-hall or whatever setup sure is scary. I'd be afraid the crowd was full of Michael Moore liberals.

BEST45CAL

10-08-2004, 07:17 PM

President looks great so far (after the first three questions).

ReneeM

10-08-2004, 07:19 PM

I think Bush is doing well so far and Kerry is still just a bunch of Hot air. This is Bush's night!! :munch:

Apollo5600

10-08-2004, 07:19 PM

He is doing awesome

Warlady

10-08-2004, 07:19 PM

Apparently there is a memogate related to tonight's debate. ABC put out a memo saying that Bush should be held more accountable than Kerry. This is UNACCEPTABLE!!!!!!!!!! :flame: :flame: :flame:

Suzie

10-08-2004, 07:28 PM

I heard that too. :(

Apollo5600

10-08-2004, 07:33 PM

What was the moderator trying to do just a second ago when Bush was trying to get his response in?

ReneeM

10-08-2004, 07:33 PM

I don't know Apollo i got lost on it...

dajoga

10-08-2004, 07:34 PM

Jon "superman" Kerry has a plan for everything!! What an amazing guy! How come it took the 'rats so long to find this mini-god who can solve every problem in the world.

SouthernReBelle

10-08-2004, 07:36 PM

GO GET 'EM PRESIDENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

KICK KERRY'S SORRY ASS!!!

Love, heather

Incident_command

10-08-2004, 07:36 PM

He is doing great

Patriot Heart

10-08-2004, 07:37 PM

I think President Bush is getting more and more comfortable as time goes by in this debate.....
PH in oK

speed_addiction

10-08-2004, 07:39 PM

Jon "superman" Kerry has a plan for everything!! What an amazing guy! How come it took the 'rats so long to find this mini-god who can solve every problem in the world.
Where the hell is Kerry going to get the 40,000 troops he is going to add? Sounds like a draft to me.

Warlady

10-08-2004, 07:39 PM

This is good to hear. I'm a bundle of nerves. I'm taping it so I can watch it with the Warlord when he gets home from work.

Blowback

10-08-2004, 07:42 PM

Couldn't resist....listened to a bit.....Bush is kicking ass. You can see it in KERRY'S face.

nosferatuscoffin

10-08-2004, 07:44 PM

Bush is coming out swinging and talking directly TO Kerry.

Kerry is being super-arrogant and very condescending towards Bush and frankly, even this audience does not seem to be bying it. I see a lot of smiles when Bush is speaking.

Oh, he just said it again....foure times that is.."I have a plan!" I suppose he thinks he is a white MLK.

nosferatuscoffin

10-08-2004, 07:44 PM

BTW, he blamed the tax cut for taking away from both troops and the homeland security budgets.

Warlady

10-08-2004, 07:46 PM

Democrats blame everything on tax cuts and their answer to every problem is to raise taxes. Not all Democrats. But certainly a majority.

BEST45CAL

10-08-2004, 07:47 PM

I think Bush is kicking Kerry's ass right now (Medicare) LOL

Blowback

10-08-2004, 07:47 PM

He's shoving Kerry's record in his face like a Boston cream pie!

dajoga

10-08-2004, 07:49 PM

I wish Bush would ask for specifics about jon-boy's plans.

Apollo5600

10-08-2004, 07:49 PM

Kerry is getting his ass whooped and he knows it, you CAN see it in his face.

ReneeM

10-08-2004, 07:52 PM

I am so happy! I LOVE MY PRESIDENT!!!

SouthernReBelle

10-08-2004, 07:53 PM

Nice use of ENRON there, Kerry, you putz.

Heather

Blowback

10-08-2004, 07:54 PM

Notice how Kerry has a certain facial expression during these debates that we don't see at any other time.

SouthernReBelle

10-08-2004, 07:54 PM

GO AHEAD KERRY AND LIE TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, YOU PUTZ!! You're a GD LAWYER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Heather

dajoga

10-08-2004, 07:56 PM

Bush missed a good chance to get at the truth about that balanced budget Kerry took credit for. IT WAS NEWT AND CO. WHO CAME IN AND FINALLY GAVE US A BALANCED BUDGET.

Blowback

10-08-2004, 07:57 PM

Bush has a great rapport with the crowd.

SouthernReBelle

10-08-2004, 07:58 PM

Kerry was actually in the Senate?? YOU CAN RUN BUT YOU CAN'T HIDE..

LOVE PRESIDENT BUSH!!

Heather

Apollo5600

10-08-2004, 07:59 PM

Notice how Kerry has a certain facial expression during these debates that we don't see at any other time.

Yes, I keep thinking Pee-Wee Herman when I see it.

Chris

10-08-2004, 08:00 PM

.....Bush is kicking ass. You can see it in KERRY'S face.

Perzactly!!!! :thumb:

dajoga

10-08-2004, 08:01 PM

Good point for Bush--"Kerry sounds like a conservative but he has the most liberal record in the Senate."

DoctorDoom

10-08-2004, 08:02 PM

Did Horseface sneak anything out of his pocket this time?

Maggie_T

10-08-2004, 08:06 PM

No. He's just repeating his usual insults to Bush over and over again in the hope that they will stick. Typical.

Maggie_T

10-08-2004, 08:07 PM

Bush missed a good chance to get at the truth about that balanced budget Kerry took credit for. IT WAS NEWT AND CO. WHO CAME IN AND FINALLY GAVE US A BALANCED BUDGET.
I know, dg. It almost gave me a heart attack.

nosferatuscoffin

10-08-2004, 08:07 PM

Bush just kicked his ass on type jobs/health care costs question.

Samcat

10-08-2004, 08:10 PM

Newsflash...Bush owns a timber mill or something like that...according to Kerry...

Now I just wonder how he is going to support that comment...

Loved the President's response: That's news to me

Samcat

10-08-2004, 08:11 PM

Bush missed a good chance to get at the truth about that balanced budget Kerry took credit for. IT WAS NEWT AND CO. WHO CAME IN AND FINALLY GAVE US A BALANCED BUDGET.
I agree!

speed_addiction

10-08-2004, 08:13 PM

Kerry now says he believes in the Patriot Act! What the hell, he is all over the place. Stick a fork in him, he's done!

Uh-oh! Stem cells and Kerry is blinking on this one.

Maggie_T

10-08-2004, 08:13 PM

I think your assertion regarding the fencesitters is right on. I think these types will pay particular attention to whether or not the candidates answer the questions directly, or go around them. Then they have to figure out who's lying and who's telling the truth.
Come on, Best. You too, True American. We ALL have been hearing the lies, slanders, and hate-speech against Bush from the left since Gore the Bore lost the 2000 elections. What more do the fence sitters need? A written affidavit?

And another thing. Anyone who cannot tell when liberals are lying is either blind, stupid, or both.

Give us a break, guys.

SouthernReBelle

10-08-2004, 08:14 PM

How in the hell can you do an embryonic stem cell test safely???

Can someone please explain this to me??

Heather

Chris

10-08-2004, 08:16 PM

Kerry (paraphasing) - "Leave the air standards as they are today, and we would be just fine." :question:

Also, I'm getting tired of hearing from Kerry "I'll fix it" and "I have a plan" with nothing, but nothing, or "go to my website to see my plan", or just outright lies to back him up.

I've been to his website and he has a plan for MANDATORY national service for high school kids FUNDED BY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT (IOW, you and me), which boils down to MANDATORY two years of national service, in exchange for four years of college paid for by, you guessed it, you and me.

dajoga

10-08-2004, 08:17 PM

Ooooo...Kerry just totally ignored the lady's question about stem-cell research.

speed_addiction

10-08-2004, 08:18 PM

Damn! Kerry stammered so much on stem cells the audience started to laugh at him.

Chris

10-08-2004, 08:21 PM

Originally Posted by dgauw
Bush missed a good chance to get at the truth about that balanced budget Kerry took credit for. IT WAS NEWT AND CO. WHO CAME IN AND FINALLY GAVE US A BALANCED BUDGET.

I was screaming at the TV for him to say that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Maggie_T

10-08-2004, 08:22 PM

Also, I'm getting tired of hearing from Kerry "I'll fix it" and "I have a plan" with nothing, but nothing, or "go to my website to see my plan", or just outright lies to back him up.

So am I, Chris. I had to leave the room or I would have had a nervous breakdown.

Now Kerry is complaining Bush said he wanted conservative judges. He says it doesn't matter whether they're liberal or conservatives. LIAR!!!

OMG, now he's flapping his mouth over abortion! This is nauseating!

dajoga

10-08-2004, 08:25 PM

Oh, boy, Kerry just told us he's catholic but really a hypocrite in his church. Again, he never answered that woman's question about if he would use pro-life citizen's taxed used for abortion.

Samcat

10-08-2004, 08:25 PM

Did Kerry ever answer the question of whether he would spend governmental money on abortion?

I guess he still hasn't.

nosferatuscoffin

10-08-2004, 08:26 PM

His other half has yet to inform him of that.

SouthernReBelle

10-08-2004, 08:27 PM

The other half couldn't argue his way out of a courtroom.

Heather

Maggie_T

10-08-2004, 08:27 PM

nosferatuscoffin

10-08-2004, 08:27 PM

Aha! I was waiting for the "plant" question. The last lady asked him to admit that he made mistakes.

This of course, is so that Kerry can run ads on it, showing him saying it.

Blowback

10-08-2004, 08:28 PM

Samcat

10-08-2004, 08:29 PM

How in the hell can you do an embryonic stem cell test safely???

Can someone please explain this to me??

Heather
Junk science that is what it is.

Maggie_T

10-08-2004, 08:29 PM

Bush answered that well. Now Horseface is saying ONCE AGAIN that Bush made a huge mistake about the war, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Samcat

10-08-2004, 08:30 PM

Aha! I was waiting for the "plant" question. The last lady asked him to admit that he made mistakes.

This of course, is so that Kerry can run ads on it, showing him saying it.
The President answered it brilliantly.

He has done quite well today. At worst, the debate is a draw.

Maggie_T

10-08-2004, 08:31 PM

YESSSSSSSS!!

Bush finally took Kerry out on his shilly-shallying about body armor for the troops!

Maggie_T

10-08-2004, 08:32 PM

Closing statements. I can't listen to Kerry. If I do, I'll puke.

Suzie

10-08-2004, 08:32 PM

Bush has a Timber company? LOL :grin:

Maggie_T

10-08-2004, 08:33 PM

Yeah, Suze. I thought he was into oil. :grin:

speed_addiction

10-08-2004, 08:34 PM

He has done quite well today. At worst, the debate is a draw.
It will be at least a draw until those yahoos at DU run to their computers and stack all of the online polls.

dajoga

10-08-2004, 08:35 PM

That question about stem-cell research: Didn't she say we've saved lives with adult stem -cells but haven't with embryronic cells. So her question to Kerry was, (I believe) why should we use embryonic? And he never gave her a straight answer.

Incident_command

10-08-2004, 08:38 PM

He won and he won big. I was proud of our President tonight.

Maggie_T

10-08-2004, 08:39 PM

Guys, quick. Go to Drudge, Cnn, Fox, MSNBC, Abc, Cbs, etc. and vote that Bush did better on the debate. That's what the 'RATS have been doing for the past days and that's why Kerry got a bump.

Go for it, guys!

Samcat

10-08-2004, 08:39 PM

It will be at least a draw until those yahoos at DU run to their computers and stack all of the online polls.
I said at worst.

I think he did fantastic, and much better than the last debate....

Naturalized-Texan

10-08-2004, 08:41 PM

President Bush kicked ass tonight. He won on both substance and style. Kerry was the one stammering tonight.

speed_addiction

10-08-2004, 08:42 PM

I said at worst.

I think he did fantastic, and much better than the last debate....
I think he spanked Kerry's ass kine he caught him kicking his dog. I just worded it that way.

dajoga

10-08-2004, 08:42 PM

I wish they'd give us some distance shots b/c it looks like President Bush is being mobbed while Kerry has a much smaller group around him. Anyone see that too?

BEST45CAL

10-08-2004, 08:43 PM

Come on, Best. You too, True American. We ALL have been hearing the lies, slanders, and hate-speech against Bush from the left since Gore the Bore lost the 2000 elections. What more do the fence sitters need? A written affidavit?

And another thing. Anyone who cannot tell when liberals are lying is either blind, stupid, or both.

Give us a break, guys.
The nature of being undecided is that you cannot make up your mind despite what you've been told.

Republicans will tend to side with the president. Dems will side with Kerry. Those in the middle are there because they cannot make up their minds. I wouldn't call them stupid.

BEST45CAL

10-08-2004, 08:44 PM

Bush kicked ass tonite!:claps:

LadyHawk108

10-08-2004, 08:45 PM

The Prez was awesome!!! He faultered in the first debate with Gore too, but he kicked butt tonight!!!!!!

LadyHawk108

10-08-2004, 08:48 PM

Fox news is now showing 53% say Bush won!

Naturalized-Texan

10-08-2004, 08:48 PM

Also, I'm getting tired of hearing from Kerry "I'll fix it" and "I have a plan" with nothing, but nothing, or "go to my website to see my plan", or just outright lies to back him up.

When Kerry says things like that, my wife starts singing the words to that old song "Anything you can do I can do better, I can do anything better than you." :D

Chris

10-08-2004, 08:49 PM

Kerry sAId he's against partial birth abortion!

STOP LYING, YOU HYPOCRITICAL S.O.B. YOU VOTED AGAINST THE BAN!!!!!!!!!

:hissyfit: :hissyfit: :hissyfit: :hissyfit: :hissyfit: :hissyfit: :hissyfit: :hissyfit: :hissyfit: :hissyfit: :hissyfit: :hissyfit: :hissyfit: :hissyfit: :hissyfit:

Yes, he was against the ban on PBA, not against PBA. I was hoping that Bush would briefly describe one - the kicking arms and legs that all of a sudden go limb because of a scissors being jammed into their little brains. It would have been a graphic reminder of the monstrousness atrocity that PBA really is.

nene

10-08-2004, 08:50 PM

The Prez was awesome!!! He faultered in the first debate with Gore too, but he kicked butt tonight!!!!!!
I agree!

SouthernReBelle

10-08-2004, 08:51 PM

650 KSTE here in Sacramento has some crack addict Professor O'Connor who is a so called Political analyst saying that Bush was uppity and Kerry got under his skin.

She's not an analyst, she's just egging on Sam Donaldson's quaf.

Heather

Large_Al

10-08-2004, 08:51 PM

This is good to hear. I'm a bundle of nerves. I'm taping it so I can watch it with the Warlord when he gets home from work.</HP>

<HP style="MARGIN: 0px">WWarladyI've been a caged animal today I have been pacing back and forth. I can't focus I didn't want to watch it but I think Bush Kicked A$$ and Took Names. This election is going to kill me!!!

Maggie_T

10-08-2004, 08:53 PM

The nature of being undecided is that you cannot make up your mind despite what you've been told.

Republicans will tend to side with the president. Dems will side with Kerry. Those in the middle are there because they cannot make up their minds. I wouldn't call them stupid.
You're kinder than I. For Pete's sake, how much longer do they need? Can we hope they will make their minds up on November 3? :rolleyes:

Maggie_T

10-08-2004, 08:54 PM

</HP>

<HP style="MARGIN: 0px">WWarladyI've been a caged animal today I have been pacing back and forth. I can't focus I didn't want to watch it but I think Bush Kicked A$$ and Took Names. This election is going to kill me!!!
That makes two of us, Al.

Chris

10-08-2004, 08:55 PM

When Kerry says things like that, my wife starts singing the words to that old song "Anything you can do I can do better, I can do anything better than you." :D

Ha! Give her a ^5 from me! :thumb:

Apollo5600

10-08-2004, 08:55 PM

Fox news has Hitlery on..

speed_addiction

10-08-2004, 08:58 PM

Told ya! The CNN poll is already at 85% Kerry, 14% Bush and 1% evenly matched. DU at work.

Chris

10-08-2004, 08:59 PM

RayChuang

10-08-2004, 09:00 PM

President Bush was GREAT tonight! :thumb: He certainly was much more wide awake than the last debate.

Meanwhile, Senator Kerry has made so many promises to everyone in sight you wonder if he can fulfill them all. http://webpages.charter.net/connectingzone/think/3.gif Kerry's monotone drone also drove me nuts, too. http://webpages.charter.net/connectingzone/disagree/30.gif

Blowback

10-08-2004, 09:02 PM

LOL.....Over at CNN, 83% say that KERRY won the debate. The pathetic children from DU, no doubt.

dajoga

10-08-2004, 09:07 PM

Told ya! The CNN poll is already at 85% Kerry, 14% Bush and 1% evenly matched. DU at work.

How many times can you vote? I voted 4 times for W. Never got a "You already voted message."

BTW, now it 83% Kerry

DoctorDoom

10-08-2004, 09:07 PM

CaliGirl

10-08-2004, 09:08 PM

This town-set-hall or whatever setup sure is scary. I'd be afraid the crowd was full of Michael Moore liberals.That was my first thought when I saw the crowd! Michale Morre wannabes!

True American

10-08-2004, 09:09 PM

Newsflash...Bush owns a timber mill or something like that...according to Kerry...

Now I just wonder how he is going to support that comment...

Loved the President's response: That's news to me
Was that awesome or what?
Did you notice how Bush said, to the mediator, "You Want Some Wood?" and he pointed at Kerry? As if to say, "If you want some wood from him... just turn your back to him and bend over." LOL
That was the highlight of the whole thing!

speed_addiction

10-08-2004, 09:11 PM

LOL.....Over at CNN, 83% say that KERRY won the debate. The pathetic children from DU, no doubt.I am going to do my damnedest to get conservatives to just not vote on those polls at all! Let the DUpes think they got 99%. The shock will be just that much greater on Nov 2nd as state after state goes red.

dajoga

10-08-2004, 09:12 PM

The polls are bullshit. There is no repeat-vote check, so anyone can vote, back up the browser, vote, back up the browser, vote...

Screw the gawddamn polls. November 2 is the ONLY poll that counts. The assholes at DUh and the other liberalunatic boards can't skew it.

Doc-I didn't even have to back up the browser--I voted, a window popped up giving the result--I closed that window--clicked vote again--same window popped up etc.

DU probably got some hackers who set up an automatic voter and turned it one after the debate was over--37,000 votes already? Is that possible? No, make that 89K votes already--

Chris

10-08-2004, 09:14 PM

Fox news has Hitlery on..

I've recently reassessed my view about what she and The Zipper really want. My view now is that she really does wants Kerry to win, because I think she knows a Bush presidency will be sooooo successful that any pub in "08 will be tough to beat, but a Kerry presidency will be such a dismal failure (plus Terzaaaaaaaaaaaaza will probably get bored with it all, especiallly the First Lady thing and all the SS hovering around. :rolleyes: ), that he'll voluntarily resign himself to one term, and leave the field open for her to TAKE CHARGE! :rolleyes:

Webruary

10-08-2004, 09:15 PM

Several Missed Chances by Bush :

ON JUDICIAL CHOICES

Should have mentioned how the Dems obstructed his judicial picks and filibustered good men and women ( one black woman ) without letting in go to a vote. Should have attacked Kerry on it.

Should have mentioned Gay Marriage and how Judges have overturned referendums to suit their own personal bias. THIS IS A WINNER.

Mentioned Dredd Scott Decision ( WHO CARES WHAT HAPPENED 150 YEARS AGO !!)

ON TAXES

Should have mentioned Kerry's tax increase record. Should have said ---- LOOK AT HIS 20 YEAR RECORD, HE NEVER MET A TAX INCREASE HE DIDN'T LIKE !

ON ABORTION

Should have hit hard on Kerry's vote against partial birth abortion ban.

KYOTO TREATY: Bush muffs this by not noting that Clinton let it die, and the Senate voted against it 97-0.

THE HEALTHCARE DEBATE IS PRETTY LAME: I'd link to Ron Bailey's excellent article on this in the latest Reason, but it's not online yet. But did I hear it right ? Bush has not actually approved drug re-importation from Canada YET ( meaning he is even CONSIDERING it ?). God help us if he does. He isn't any better than Kerry on this.

Failed to CALL KERRY on his REPEATING THE "Shinseki fired" story. Is Bush aware of this falsehood ?

DoctorDoom

10-08-2004, 09:16 PM

DU probably got some hackers who set up an automatic voter and turned it one after the debate was over--37,000 votes already? Is that possible? No, make that 89K votes already--Well, it's the way RATs always win. They use fraud. Vote early and vote often.

Chris

10-08-2004, 09:18 PM

Was that awesome or what?
Did you notice how Bush said, to the mediator, "You Want Some Wood?" and he pointed at Kerry? As if to say, "If you want some wood from him... just turn your back to him and bend over." LOL
That was the highlight of the whole thing!

LOL! Welcome to FC True American. :thumb:

Warlady

10-08-2004, 09:19 PM

Bush has redeemed himself as the substantive candidate. Kerry is the man with a plan for everything he just doesn't have any details about those plans. Bush has definitely pushed sKerry's buttons tonight.

nosferatuscoffin

10-08-2004, 09:20 PM

Chris

10-08-2004, 09:21 PM

Let the DUpes think they got 99%. The shock will be just that much greater on Nov 2nd as state after state goes red.

HA! I was thinking the same thing earlier today when FNC was reporting on the McAwful memo to his minions to skew the polls. :thumb:

BEST45CAL

10-08-2004, 09:23 PM

You're kinder than I. For Pete's sake, how much longer do they need? Can we hope they will make their minds up on November 3? :rolleyes:
I hope we won't need their votes. I hope the election won't be that close. I want Bush to run away with it.

CaliGirl

10-08-2004, 09:26 PM

So am I, Chris. I had to leave the room or I would have had a nervous breakdown.

Now Kerry is complaining Bush said he wanted conservative judges. He says it doesn't matter whether they're liberal or conservatives. LIAR!!!

OMG, now he's flapping his mouth over abortion! This is nauseating!I had to leave the room also. CaliBoy came running after me, thinking I was getting sick like last night. Told CaliBoy, I am fine, I just can't stand listening and watching skerry LIE/BASHING GWB every time he opens his mouth!

nene

10-08-2004, 09:27 PM

Looks like the FOX poll has basic ip checking. However, that is easy enough to overcome. Heck, with those dolts, they are probably using dialup accounts an revoting using a different ip via reconnections.
Most people don't have a static ip, at least from home, so basic ip checking is poor quality control.

Large_Al

10-08-2004, 09:31 PM

True American Welcome to the Forum I've enjoyed and agreed with all of your posts.

Blowback

10-08-2004, 09:33 PM

I took the "You want some wood?" remark, and the accompanying hand motion to Kerry, as Bush's way of pointing out how wooden, rigid, and constipated Kerry seems all the time.

Maggie_T

10-08-2004, 09:37 PM

dajoga

10-08-2004, 09:38 PM

Several Missed Chances by Bush :

ON JUDICIAL CHOICES

Should have mentioned how the Dems obstructed his judicial picks and filibustered good men and women ( one black woman ) without letting in go to a vote. Should have attacked Kerry on it.

Should have mentioned Gay Marriage and how Judges have overturned referendums to suit their own personal bias. THIS IS A WINNER.

Mentioned Dredd Scott Decision ( WHO CARES WHAT HAPPENED 150 YEARS AGO !!)

ON TAXES

Should have mentioned Kerry's tax increase record. Should have said ---- LOOK AT HIS 20 YEAR RECORD, HE NEVER MET A TAX INCREASE HE DIDN'T LIKE !

ON ABORTION

Should have hit hard on Kerry's vote against partial birth abortion ban.

Plus:
Kerry's vote against the '91 invasion of Iraq, even after Bush, Sr. had UN backing and a big coalition of forces.

Also his claiming credit for helping Clinton balance the budget. The pubs did that, not the 'rats.

Plus on the PAB ban, Kerry keeps saying he would have voted for it if it had an exclusion for the mother's health. That's bogus. If the mother's health is in jeopardy, do a C-section then kill the baby. As it is, the baby is fully delivered except the head. So if the mother hasn't died by then, completing the delivery isn't going to complicate things more.

BTW, how many women have died from complications from childbirth? With today's medical ability, that must be very, very, rare.

Samcat

10-08-2004, 09:38 PM

LOL.....Over at CNN, 83% say that KERRY won the debate. The pathetic children from DU, no doubt.
What debate did they watch?

Warlady

10-08-2004, 09:39 PM

Okay Magster!

Patriot Heart

10-08-2004, 09:40 PM

Near the beginning of the debate....did anyone else notice that thinly veiled insult to the audience by HorseFace... "I look around this room.....and I only see three people that would be affected by the tax increases (for those making over $200K) I would support....myself, the President, and you too, Charlie!" (Gibson, Moderator) I thought it was incredibly insulting of him to PRESUME that he can discern the income of a person just by LOOKING at them!!
Patriot Heart in OK

Samcat

10-08-2004, 09:41 PM

Samcat

10-08-2004, 09:44 PM

RayChuang

10-08-2004, 09:46 PM

Bush has definitely pushed sKerry's buttons tonight.And I was ready to throw the remote control at the screen of my brother's 61" projection monitor as I was fuming at Senator Kerry's constant remarks of I have a plan (WHAT plan, Senator?! :flame: ).

Trau

10-08-2004, 09:47 PM

I was disappointed by Bush's performance, and that he did better than last week is not good enough for me to say that he won the debate tonight.

Samcat

10-08-2004, 09:48 PM

How many times can you vote? I voted 4 times for W. Never got a "You already voted message."

BTW, now it 83% KerryNow 80 %

Maggie_T

10-08-2004, 09:50 PM

You know, guys. I really think Kerry grated on everyone's nerves by incessantly droning "I have a plan!" There came a moment I had to leave the room or else I would have screamed.

Chris

10-08-2004, 09:51 PM

OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!! I'm going to barf!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :eek: Rendell is on Hannity & Colmes right now! He's such a disgrace to my wonderful state!!! You can rate his creditability by the first thing he did once he was elected governor in PA, which was he raised our income tax.

CaliGirl

10-08-2004, 09:52 PM

President Bush kicked ass tonight. He won on both substance and style. Kerry was the one stammering tonight.I thought so also! :claps:

Question though...while we were eating dinner, not able to see the TV, CaliBoy and I both heard what sounded like someone hitting their fist on something and by the time we got to the TV it was over. Did anyone else see something like this? It was in the first 30 to 45 minutes of the debate I think.

Maggie_T

10-08-2004, 09:52 PM

I was disappointed by Bush's performance, and that he did better than last week is not good enough for me to say that he won the debate tonight.
Oh, dear. Trau's glass is eternally half empty. Poor Trau.

Maggie_T

10-08-2004, 09:53 PM

Maggie_T

10-08-2004, 09:54 PM

I thought so also! :claps:

Question though...while we were eating dinner, not able to see the TV, CaliBoy and I both heard what sounded like someone hitting their fist on something and by the time we got to the TV it was over. Did anyone else see something like this? It was in the first 30 to 45 minutes of the debate I think. Caligirl, Terry McAwful was going on and on about Bush loosing his cool. I did not see that because I left the room for a while.

Anyone saw that?

Suzie

10-08-2004, 09:55 PM

I need some testers, can some of you help me I want to get it ready for our next debate night and election night. http://www.freeconservatives.com/vb/chat/flashchat.php

nene

10-08-2004, 09:55 PM

And I was ready to throw the remote control at the screen of my brother's 61" projection monitor as I was fuming at Senator Kerry's constant remarks of I have a plan (WHAT plan, Senator?! :flame: ).I can only imagine your anger, as my screen is only a 32", and yet I could barely bring myself to look at him droning about his alleged plan.

Suzie

10-08-2004, 09:56 PM

Help me test to be ready for the next debate and election night. http://www.freeconservatives.com/vb/chat/flashchat.php

Trau

10-08-2004, 09:56 PM

Oh, dear. Trau's glass is eternally half empty. Poor Trau.
How so? I thought Bush was incredibly lackluster. There were moments where he could have bombed Kerry to hell, but he just didn't take those oppurtunities. Bush didn't even win on substance this time.

LadyHawk108

10-08-2004, 09:57 PM

I don't remember anything like that. GW was cool as a cucumber tonight, and Kerry had that stupid grin on his face every time GW talked

Samcat

10-08-2004, 09:57 PM

You know, guys. I really think Kerry grated on everyone's nerves by incessantly droning "I have a plan!" There came a moment I had to leave the room or else I would have screamed.Sure he has a plan! It involves Special high intensity training.

Spread liberaly among the citizens of the USA...

LadyHawk108

10-08-2004, 09:59 PM

Mags, me too, but anytime anyone asked about what his "plan" was, he said to go to his website. All I could hear was, "I am Mister Ed" everytime i looked at him!!

dajoga

10-08-2004, 10:00 PM

MSNBC shows kerry by 71% in tonights debate. But 591000 responses already?

LadyHawk108

10-08-2004, 10:05 PM

and how can the polls be reporting that??? I am totally amazed. I admitted I thought he lost big in the first debate, but GW was great tonight!!!!
:question:

Chris

10-08-2004, 10:06 PM

I don't remember anything like that. GW was cool as a cucumber tonight, and Kerry had that stupid grin on his face every time GW talked

:thumb:

GREAT to see you LH! :)

Antigone

10-08-2004, 10:06 PM

And I was ready to throw the remote control at the screen of my brother's 61" projection monitor as I was fuming at Senator Kerry's constant remarks of I have a plan (WHAT plan, Senator?! :flame: ).Same here. I also want to kick the cat every time he says the "just go to johnkerry.com" thing. Maybe Kerry himself should try that. He might be able to figure out what his 'Plan" is before the next debate. :D

Trau

10-08-2004, 10:06 PM

I thought he was better than the last debate, but not great. Maybe my expectations were too high. Especially after seeing Cheney stomp on Edwards.

LadyHawk108

10-08-2004, 10:07 PM

Thanks Chris, hope to be back more often now!

Chris

10-08-2004, 10:11 PM

Thanks Chris, hope to be back more often now!

Wonderful!!! :patriot:

Suzie

10-08-2004, 10:18 PM

Join us CHAT ROOM (http://www.freeconservatives.com/vb/chat/flashchat.php?username=__random__&lang=en)

CaliGirl

10-08-2004, 10:27 PM

How so? I thought Bush was incredibly lackluster. There were moments where he could have bombed Kerry to hell, but he just didn't take those oppurtunities. Bush didn't even win on substance this time.I thought GWB WON tonight! I don't see how you thought different? You do have to remember, GWB is a Republican, not the typical holier-than-thou DemRAT! Skerry never did answer a question! All I heard him say was a typical demRAT gobbledygook of the bashing GWB in all of his replies. Skerry is considered a slick-skerry in his replies. :hissyfit:

Grunhauser

10-08-2004, 10:50 PM

all these crazy polls that are coming out after the debate... well, it's late at night and it's Halloween season, what do ya expect? demo zombies are breaking their new underwear, courtesy of Michael Moore, of course, and swarming the phone lines at Fox News.

W did this to Jean Francois Kerry. :nutkick:

meshuga_mikey

10-08-2004, 11:05 PM

John JOHN what are yout TALKING about

http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20041009/i/r740540625.jpg

nosferatuscoffin

10-08-2004, 11:18 PM

This was close to a good heavyweight boxing match, with Bush landing several body blows to Kerry, leaving Kerry with little steam to muster any sort of offense. It consisted of, "I have a plan", "I can fix it", "Go to my website: and "More of the same". Of course with Kerry, it is always more the same. The same BS answers that is. His Barbie Doll neck pull string must have been jammed.

This is a nice followup to the political seal clubbing that Cheney did on Edwards.

Faithful_Servant

10-08-2004, 11:54 PM

SunnyBrook

10-08-2004, 11:58 PM

I didn't get to see the debate, as I was hosting my son's first birthday sleepover with a housefull of rowdy 1st through 4th grade boys. I did, however, hear most of it on the radio and really believe it to be a clear Bush win. I think that if I had seen it, I would only feel more confident that he did, as he usually plays better on video. Bush is real. He's the guy next door that helps you jumpstart the battery when the kids left the overhead light on for the umpteenth time. Kerry's the pompous wimpy self-important stuffed shirt with delusions of grandeur who complains that the baked Alaska is cold in the middle.

Of course, I can always think of things Bush should have said, but didn't; however, he did get a lot more of those kinds of things said in tonight's debate than he did in the first one. It seemed to me that he came out swinging. I was glad to hear him directly refute several things from the first debate--typing up any loose ends (chads?) dangling out there. He was especially passionate in his support of our current allies in the War, and in pointing out the dichotomy between Kerry's opposition to our supposed bilateral approach to Iraq and his support of a bilateral approach to N. Korea (vs. coalition). I just wish he had gone ahead and nailed Kerry re: the nuclear fuel Kerry believes we should give to Iran. Maybe he addressed that part and I missed it. To me, that was the most glaringly stupid remark Kerry made in the 1st debate. You have to be an idiot to be self-labeled the anti-proliferation/nukes candidate during a time when national security is foremost in the minds of John Q. Public. In the same debate, Kerry criticizes Bush for being unable to terminate Osama after he had burrowed into the caves of Tora Bora, then he voices a desire to terminate US R&D of better bunker-busting bombs. Unbelievable! I wish Bush had retaliated with a list of the many, many weapons/machinery/equipment programs that Kerry voted against.

Beowulf

10-09-2004, 12:20 AM

I listened to most of it in the car on the way to work. I just about got into an accident from laughing over the wood comment.

I thought Bush did much better and very well. He dealt with the issues while I felt Kerry skirted a good many of them. Once again, I keep hearing "I have a plan." What plan? Would someone enlighten me? I hear what he wants to do but the Kerry tax plan doesn't add up to me......and I'm horrible with math. He'll have to tax more people than he says to do what he wishes.

Game, set and match to Bush.

DoctorDoom

10-09-2004, 12:33 AM

Same here. I also want to kick the cat every time he says the "just go to johnkerry.com" thing.I wonder how all those folks who don't have Internet access feel about JFingK blowing them off like that. "I'm not going to tell you what my plan is. If you can't read it on my website, screw you."

The man is a consummate ass. One hopes that he'll be blasted so badly on Nov. 2 that even Massholechusetts won't want him, but that's a faint hope.

BEST45CAL

10-09-2004, 12:53 AM

Round 2 to Bush
Town hall setting serves president

Oct. 9, 2004 12:00 AM 

The central question going into the second presidential debate was simple: Would the re-election campaign of George W. Bush collapse under the weight of two consecutive poundings from John F. Kerry?

Another stylistically impressive presentation by Kerry notwithstanding, the pillars of Bush House are still standing.

In contrast to his distracted, ill-prepared show Sept. 30, Bush fairly leaped out of his chair Friday night, at some points seeming to overwhelm the sound system at the debate site at Washington University in St. Louis.

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/opinions/articles/1009sat1-30.html

Celebraman

10-09-2004, 02:26 AM

There is no doubt in my mind--BUSH TOTALLY CREAMED KERRY. He was better on both style and substance, and he delivered his positions with terrific passion and enthusiasm. Kerry, by contrast, grew progressively dull and nonsensical as the debate continued. I was so infuriated with the lies in his statements. He came at Bush forcefully, but it wasn't enough because Bush kept coming back, plus he came off as infinitely more likeable than Kerry (which is very easy in the first place).

HOORAY FOR PRESIDENT BUSH!!! :claps: :claps: :claps: :claps:

ReneeM

10-09-2004, 06:44 AM

I did get tired of hearing "I have a plan". Did anyone wanna scream" WHAT THE HELL IS YOUR PLAN!?"lol Bush did a great job and i had to turn off the debates as the commentators and the lib guest were all saying Kerry won. I even saw Hitlary on Fox and she said Kerry had another slam dunk debate. I was thinking apparently she wasn't at the same debate i was watching!:rotflmbo:

Jeffrho

10-09-2004, 06:45 AM

President Bush cleaned sKerry's clock. Bush was in his element, calm relaxed and funny - "Wanna buy some wood?" LOL! He was also tough and finally hammered on Kerry's atrocious Senate record (or lack thereof). Kerry looked like the robotic buffoon that he is. His answer to almost every question was, "I Have A Plan". How nice! Would ya mind filling us in on it? Or is it too "nuanced" for us unwashed masses to understand? And when he looked into the camera and said he would not raise taxes, I almost fell out of my chair laughing.

Samcat

10-09-2004, 06:49 AM

I told you all about Kerry's plan. It is Special high intensity training.

Peachdiane

10-09-2004, 08:22 AM

Watching the debates isn't going to change my vote for Bush so I didn't watch. I just can't stand to look at nor listen to Kerry.....

Maggie_T

10-09-2004, 09:12 AM

Wyatt_Junker

10-09-2004, 10:06 AM

If Kerry wins, America can kiss is bunker bustin' low yields goodbye. I haven't heard the phrase 'nuclear freeze' since WKRP in Cincinatti made its first television debut and we and the rest of Europe were under the Soviet's crooked thumb. We all know that even under Kerry's worst Jimmy Carter impersonation, a nuclear 'freeze' only would apply to the United States. He would deball this country faster than a mideval Catholic choir conductor at an orphanage.

I loved his comment about this at the first debate, "America's pursuit of more nuclear weapons is insane, I'd stop that program if I became president." Even as Iran, NK and China are spit-shining theirs, "I'll end our program OVERNIGHT!" What a maroon.

This guy makes Carter look like he actually owns a pair. Kerry makes Carter look like Iron Mike Tyson. Kerry makes Carter look chiseled & defined, as if he actually had honed biceps and 23 inch calves.

What is it about 'crats and their tired, retro policies like some kind of Brady Bunch rerun on Nick-At-Nite? New-clear Fuh-Reeze! My prediction is that if El Phuqur is elected, we're back to gas rationing in no less than 18 months. America's paper tiger image abroad will give us no OPEC leverage at all. We'll be in deep shiat.

Maggie_T

10-09-2004, 10:23 AM

Absolutely, Wyatt. But the socialist Eurotrash will be happy. Liberals will get their frantically-sought pat on the head from their liberal masters overseas and that's all that counts for them.

The Frogs and the Huns will finally like us. Whoopee.

kate

10-09-2004, 10:41 AM

The September employment and job-creation report is GOOD news. The unemployment rate of 5.4% is lower than the 5.6% rate that BJ Clinton was so proud of in 1996. Also, the 5.4% rate is lower than the unemployment rate in the 1970s, the 1980s, or the 1990s.

The September numbers haven't been posted by the Bureau of Labor Statistics (http://www.bls.gov/schedule/archives/empsit_nr.htm) yet, but through August 2004, 3.7 million more Americans were employed than when President Bush took office. That's almost miraculous when you consider that 2.5 million jobs were lost between Jan. 2001 and Jan. 2002 due to the Clinton Recession and the 9/11 attacks.

Putting it another way, 6.2 million more Americans were employed in August 2004 than at the end of the Clinton Recession in Jan. 2002.
I remember an unemployment rate of 6,4 % under Bush too though. (June 2003)

Maggie_T

10-09-2004, 10:47 AM

That was then. This is now.

Naturalized-Texan

10-09-2004, 10:49 AM

After Kerry's rambling, incoherent non-answer to the abortion question, our son from MD, who is visiting us, turned to me and asked, "Did he answer the question?" I said, "No!" Then I said," He just lost the election with that non-answer."

Maggie_T

10-09-2004, 10:51 AM

Kerry never gives a direct answer to anything. Hard thing to do when you're on both sides of everything.

kate

10-09-2004, 10:51 AM

Ok I think you got me wrong there. I should elaborate: Why bring up this Clinton stats when you can say Look at the rise of employment since June 2003!

That would sound a bit better than comparing Bush to this wanker Clinton.

Maggie_T

10-09-2004, 10:53 AM

Naturalized-Texan

10-09-2004, 10:58 AM

I remember an unemployment rate of 6,4 % under Bush too though. (June 2003)

That was when we were still feeling the effects of the Clinton Recession and just before the full effects of the Bush tax cuts were felt.

kate

10-09-2004, 11:06 AM

I'm not a friend of his taxcuts. If you believe the Heritage Foundation only 500.000 jobs by the end of 2004 are gonna be a result of his tax cuts.

Income taxcuts don't really help the economy as much as wages taxcuts if you ask me. But that's just my opinion.

Black Phoenix

10-09-2004, 12:26 PM

I remember taking ecnomonics 101 and learning that, at the leaat, when a plan hits from government to increase or decrease taxes, effects usually aren't seen for at least three years. It cannot happen that Bush proposes a tax cut and "presto chango" the economy tanks. Bush should have said something about that when Kerry talked about a tax cut he implimented around a year ago, and blamed the current recession on it. :duh:

Anyone else notice how Kerry always gave his accusations first, before addressing the actual question asked? As if attacking the President was his priority, and he was trying to answer so he didn't look like he was ignoring the debate format. The questions are the priority Mac, answer them, then make your accusations, and for heaven sake, stay on subbject! With almost every answer he changed subject so many times.

Peachdiane

10-09-2004, 12:55 PM

Diane and LadyHawk, nice to see you girls again! :wave:

Guys, you can tell Bush creamed Kerry when liberals all over are saying "It was a tie."

A tie, my eye! Bush kicked Kerry's botoxed ass up and down the stage. :thumb:
:wave:

A tie!!! Puh-leeze!!!! Bush was Presidential and trustworthy. Kerry was his gloom and doom self. I dunt think much of a man who keeps saying, "Check my site!":flushlib.

kate

10-09-2004, 01:04 PM

I remember taking ecnomonics 101 and learning that, at the leaat, when a plan hits from government to increase or decrease taxes, effects usually aren't seen for at least three years. It cannot happen that Bush proposes a tax cut and "presto chango" the economy tanks. Bush should have said something about that when Kerry talked about a tax cut he implimented around a year ago, and blamed the current recession on it. :duh:

I agree. Everybody has a preference for long-term solutions for economic problems. But Bush's pro-rich taxcuts won't have that much of an effect.

A president's policies are only one of many influences on the economy. The business cycle, technology and the Federal Reserve etc. usually dominate.

BEST45CAL

10-09-2004, 01:14 PM

Kerry kept repeating like a broken record "I have a plan!" But not even once did he mention what the bloody hell the magic plan consists of. Got to Kerry.com, he says. Yeah, right. And don't forget to visit DU for safe measure.

Kerry is so full of it. Typical democRAT.
My wife and I started mocking sKerry by saying "I've got a plan (for that)" whenever we ask each other something. LOL

Black Phoenix

10-09-2004, 01:17 PM

But Bush's pro-rich taxcuts won't have that much of an effect.

A president's policies are only one of many influences on the economy. The business cycle, technology and the Federal Reserve etc. usually dominate.
2 things. First dead on, there are many factors in a free country that effect the economy more severly than the president, another would be technology.

The rich pay the Majority of the taxes in this country
http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/menu/top_50__of_wage_earners_pay_96_09__of_income_taxes .guest.html

he always has sources if you don't like Rush.

Samcat

10-09-2004, 01:41 PM

Watching the debates isn't going to change my vote for Bush so I didn't watch. I just can't stand to look at nor listen to Kerry.....
All the blonde conservative ladies here are knockouts!

kate

10-09-2004, 02:02 PM

To the link you posted: That whole statistic is about income taxes. People who don't pay income taxes (which would be.. duh.. the working poor and people with more than just 1 job trying to feed their seed and survive) of course can't pay over 90 % of the income tax.

Now you blame workers for not earning more money in their 2 miserable jobs? lol

So a family that earns over 200.000 US Dollars a year deserves a taxcut but someone who earns about 22.000 US Dollars annually doesn't? From my point of view, the Flat Tax or a National Retail Sales Tax don't sound as good as Kerry's plan to cut the taxes of the middle-class families down.

Don't get me wrong, I think Kerry is a wanker. But Bush's Taxplans don't save you any money (unless you have much money already)

Black Phoenix

10-09-2004, 02:17 PM

Now you blame workers for not earning more money in their 2 miserable jobs? lol

So a family that earns over 200.000 US Dollars a year deserves a taxcut but someone who earns about 22.000 US Dollars annually doesn't? From my point of view, the Flat Tax or a National Retail Sales Tax don't sound as good as Kerry's plan to cut the taxes of the middle-class families down.

Everyone who paid taxes got a refund, remember? But those who pay more get a bigger refund. In any case, how can Kerry only tax the upper 1%? Sounds nice, but is it realistic? Besides, why is it always an us against them mentality? A tax should be levied on everyone who can pay it with a fair percentage, (15% is unreasonable for some, but okay for others, for instance) not taken only from a minority so the majority feels good. Why should we punish the wealthy? Is it not the richest amoung us who create wealth anyway? Look at Microsoft owner Bill Gates. Where would we be without his computers? Where's the insentive to make it big here if taxes get higher and higher for the rich until they no longer have any advantage over the rest of us?

Peachdiane

10-09-2004, 02:25 PM

Jeffrho

10-09-2004, 02:26 PM

I think the spending is a bigger issue. I don't approve of all the spending plans, but his tax cuts have been very fair and real, IMO.Right on!

nosferatuscoffin

10-09-2004, 02:26 PM

Taxes 101:

1. First, you have to realize that nearly 50% of wage earners in this country do NOT pay any income tax whatsoever as they have been taken off of the tax rolls over the years by the various tax code changes. The cutoff for paying income taxes is about $26K. The top 50% pay nearly 97% of all revenues collected by the Treasury. Also, to show how "progressive" our tax code is, those evil top 1% earn 23% of taxable wages, but pay about 37% of all taxes collected. In other words, they paying better then one out of every three dollars the government uses to pay for it's expenditures, whether that is Social Security benefits, maintaining the military or paying welfare benefits. Pretty evil, those people are, seeing that they paying about an effective 60% tax rate above what should be their tax rate, if that rate was flat.

As for those poor "working families", (Dem code for union households), what they DO get in a lot of cases is a government check, the totally misnamed Earned Income Tax Credit. This is simply a direct money transfer from those who pay income taxes to those who don't. We have another name for that. It is called welfare. So, we have these "working families" bitching about not getting any more money back from the government, when they never paid any in to the treasury the first place. This is classic class warfare and straight out of Marx.

So a family that earns over 200.000 US Dollars a year deserves a taxcut but someone who earns about 22.000 US Dollars annually doesn't? From my point of view, the Flat Tax or a National Retail Sales Tax don't sound as good as Kerry's plan to cut the taxes of the middle-class families down.

The family that earns $22K a year does not pay any income tax and can very easily get an EITC check from the government (read taxpayer money from the Evil Rich) to supplement their income. All for doing nothing. As for the $200K household, they are in a many cases, small business owners which creates close to 80% of the jobs in this country. Contrary to the Dem myth, not everyone in the country worls for IBM, GM or the government. The vast majority of job holders work in businesses with 50 employees or less.

Don't get me wrong, I think Kerry is a wanker. But Bush's Taxplans don't save you any money (unless you have much money already)

Percentage wise, the money put back in the pockets of the middle class was higher than those put in the pockets of the Teddy Kennedy's of the world. This is another Dem myth. People confuse wealth with earnings. Big difference there. Bill Gates could decide not to take a paycheck for the next year and would not have to pay income tax on those non-earnings. But he would still be worth $60 billion because his wealth is not based on his earnings, but on his stock and bond portfolio. The same holds true for people like Kennedy's, Tereeeza Heinz etc.

On the other hand, the middle class relies on their earnings for their wealth and therefore a tax cut of this size will not only put a substanial amount of money in their pockets, but they will also spend and invest it, which has more effect on the overall health of the economy then idle rich money which can be tied up in a multitude of financial plans, but does not necessarily help the country's GDP. Who do you think is going to create more jobs this year? Tereeza with her hundreds of millions sitting in stock options, or the small business owner, who thanks to his tax cut, can afford to expand his business by hiring more workers and/or buying more modern equipment?

kate

10-09-2004, 02:31 PM

Without Microsoft we'd have working GNU/Linux systems and Free Software would be on the run. But I don't expect you to have a clue about the computer world. If you had a clue about microsofts buggy code in Windows then you'd be careful with statements like these.

Were would the rich be without us? Tell me one guy who could keep up his buisness without workers working for them to make them rich?

You can't get a table without someone making it, you can't get a burger without someone making it, you can't get fuel without someone transporting, finding, searching etc. oil.. I don't know how you can dare yourself to imply that rich people should pay same taxes as someone who earns almost nothing.

These rich people rely on workers even more than workers rely on them. If you would love the American folk (which is averagely not rich) then you wouldn't come up with such stuff.

The majority of the people in a country should reign it, and not the top 1%. Because if we go back to that, then we mayaswell welcome the monarchs again and give up hopes on health insurance or anything. Let's simply get exploited by the rich. That#s fine, because YOU say so. Alright. I guess further presidents should keep that in mind to keep you happy.

I'm wondering if you class yourself rich. EVERYONE got a refund you say? Yep a lot of people did get a refund. But only people who pay INCOME taxes. And not even in the height that Bush claimed it would be. He said 1083 Dollars for 92 Millions of Americans. THAT, my dear, never happened.

And now I will go to bed.

Peachdiane

10-09-2004, 02:31 PM

Great post Nos....

Here's another 'Taxes 101' I received in email just a few moments ago. All I have to say is, now I'm hungry! :p

Economic Lesson in Taxation

Let's put tax cuts in terms everyone can understand. Suppose that every day, ten men go out for dinner. The bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:

* The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
* The fifth would pay $1.
* The sixth would pay $3.
* The seventh $7.
* The eighth $12.
* The ninth $18.
* The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.

So, that's what they decided to do. The ten men ate dinner in the restaurant every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve.

"Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily meal by $20."

So, now dinner for the ten only cost $80. The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes.

So, the first four men were unaffected. They would still eat for free.

But what about the other six, the paying customers? How could they divvy up the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his 'fair share'?

The six men realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being 'PAID' to eat their meal.

So, the restaurant owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.

And so:

* The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).

* The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33% savings).
* The seventh now paid $5 instead of $7 (28% savings).
* The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).
* The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).
* The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).

Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to eat for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings.
"I only got a dollar out of the $20," declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man "but he got $10!"

"Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a dollar, too.
It's unfair that he got ten times more than me!"

"That's true!!" shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get $10 back when I got only $2? The wealthy get all the breaks!"

"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison. "We didn't get anything at all.. The system exploits the poor!"

The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

The next night the tenth man didn't show up for dinner, so the nine sat down and ate without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn't have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!

And that, boys and girls, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up at the table anymore. There are lots of good restaurants in Europe and the Caribbean.

David R. Kamerschen, Ph.D.
Distinguished Professor of Economics
536 Brooks Hall University of Georgia

Wyatt_Junker

10-09-2004, 03:09 PM

Were would the rich be without us? Tell me one guy who could keep up his buisness without workers working for them to make them rich?

You can't get a table without someone making it, you can't get a burger without someone making it, you can't get fuel without someone transporting, finding, searching etc. oil.. I don't know how you can dare yourself to imply that rich people should pay same taxes as someone who earns almost nothing.

With an attitude like that, I hope every business in America invests entirely in automation....

Just. To. Spite. You.

You're a very sick soul, and the kind of morbid, glassy-eyed employee I wish there was better screening for...

DoctorDoom

10-09-2004, 04:33 PM

S-T

10-09-2004, 04:39 PM

Here are my thoughts on the debate last night between President George W. Bush and John F. Kerry. It was a good debate. Some points:
The President is going to have to be more effective in controlling his temper in the third debate. Once again, he was visibly irritated by some of what John Kerry said. Furthermore, the President was visibly annoyed right away.

On Tax Cuts, Bush needs to make the facts clear. From National Review (http://www.nationalreview.com/moore/moore200408191201.asp): "One of the inconvenient facts for the foes of the Bush tax cuts is that the percentage of total taxes paid by the rich rose after the economic stimulus plan was put into effect." The President needs to bring this up in the next debate, because Kerry and the Democrats are scoring points with their class-warfare rhetoric.

The recession that the Democrats are trying to blame on Bush started under Bill Clinton and was deepened by September 11. Bush should state this fact more often, in addition to stressing his point about how his tax cuts made sure the recession was shallow.

President Bush struck a chord when he said that he knows some of his decisions were unpopular with our allies, but he believes they were the right thing to do. This point -- standing on principle despite what others think -- is something that the President should continue to emphasize. He did a great job making that point last night.

President Bush nailed Kerry's hypocrisy on multilateralism. Kerry is complaining that Bush did not put together a wide coalition in Iraq, but opposes the President's decision to go with multilateral negotiations with North Korea on nuclear weapons. Russia, China, Japan, and South Korea all have an interest in North Korea's nuclear program, and should be included. Bilateral negotiations between N.K. and a country on the other side of the world are not the correct path.

President Bush made it clear he is not pursuing a draft, but missed a chance to knock Kerry down by pointing out that it is Democrats who are sponsoring bills to reintroduce the draft. Bush should ask Kerry what he thinks of the efforts of Kerry's fellow Democrats.

Bush was right to reject the Kyoto treaty because of the economic harm it would cause. More importantly, Kyoto undermined our national sovereignty. Even if it were a perfect treaty, that is not acceptable and taking that position is a winning issue with the American people.

Kerry lied about President Bush "flip-flopping" on stem-cell research, and Bush called him on it. The stem-cell lines Bush approved funding for already existed, and the embryos that produced those lines were already destroyed. Forbidding research with those lines cannot bring those lives back, but there is no need to take more lives. An audience member correctly pointed out that there have been no cures from embryonic stem cells, but plenty of advances have come from adult stem cell research.

John Kerry said that poor people should not be denied the right to choose because they cannot afford it. As Karl Born (http://www.hoosierreview.com/archives/000424.html) points out, John Kerry is saying that taxpayers should be forced to fund abortion, right after he said how much he (as a Catholic) respected the pro-life position.

On Weapons of Mass Destruction:
It was pretty much universally believed that Saddam Hussein had and was trying to develop more weapons of mass destruction. (A Google search can confirm this.) The Clinton Administration believed it, Democrats in Congress believed it, our allies believed it, and President Bush believed it.
September 11 proved that you do not need weapons of mass destruction to be a threat. Al the 9-11 terrorists had at the beginning of their day were box cutters and the knowledge of how to fly a plane.
Hindsight is 20/20, but you cannot base your policy on that.
John Kerry voted for the war. If the war was the "wrong war at the wrong place at the wrong time" he should not have voted to give the President the authority to go to war. You do not vote to authorize a war until you believe the nation is ready to go to war; it is just that simple. Kerry is just passing the buck, refusing to take responsibility for his votes.

President Bush did better than last time, and I would argue that he had a slight edge in this debate, especially toward the end when he was getting more comfortable.

Kathy29

10-09-2004, 05:40 PM

He did stupendously, especially since ABC has a policy of treating the parties unequally. ABC was definitely and open pro Kerry.

oracle

10-09-2004, 05:57 PM

Kerry made one promise that I wish that Bush had refuted. Kerry has shown that he prefers the standard liberal approach to tax policy - offering tax credits for Kerry-approved behaviors.

When Kerry said that he wanted to offer a $4000 tax credit for college tuition, Bush should have responded with the following points -

Before you can get such a tax credit, you have to have the money to spend on the tuition to begin with. It is better to cut the parents's taxes so that they can better save for college expenses and to increase the amount of money they keep from their paycheck to pay the current expenses.

Such a tax credit is worthless if you don't pay that much in income taxes. bush's tax cuts reduced the income tax burden of several million lower and middle income wage earners to zero. An additional tax credit will provide no assistance to these people and they are probably the ones that need it more than anyone.

SunnyBrook

10-09-2004, 06:15 PM

Good points, Oracle!

Naturalized-Texan

10-09-2004, 06:51 PM

So a family that earns over 200.000 US Dollars a year deserves a taxcut but someone who earns about 22.000 US Dollars annually doesn't? From my point of view, the Flat Tax or a National Retail Sales Tax don't sound as good as Kerry's plan to cut the taxes of the middle-class families down.

A family that earns $22,000 doesn't pay any taxes, so there is no way that that family could get a tax cut. In fact, that family probably gets more than $1,000 in refundable earned income tax credit.

Patriot Heart

10-09-2004, 08:22 PM

nosferatuscoffin

10-09-2004, 08:26 PM

Horse S*** Face made so many faces and drooled out so many insults, it was hard to remember them all. However, now that you mention it, I do remember him standing up like Richard Kiel with a bad case of hemmoriods and addressing the audience with that "I know I am GOD" Hillary The Evil One tone and essentially saying that he knew best who made what in that room and who deserved what from a Kerry admin.

Gag me.

Great pickup, PH :)

Samcat

10-09-2004, 08:55 PM

Kate,

Bush's tax cuts were the first real cuts for hard-pressed middle-class families since the Reagan years. The tax cuts were distributed evenly across the board depending on how much taxes you paid. It was a tax cut for everyone who paid taxes in every bracket.

I think the spending is a bigger issue. I don't approve of all the spending plans, but his tax cuts have been very fair and real, IMO.
That is all well and good in a peacetime economy, but in a wartime economy, such as the one we have now, the spending well is for our troops and security.

Of course we can do without the additional entitlements that the President has supported which is one my disagreements with him.

I can't see how Kerry is going to have tax cuts for the middle class. Isn't this the guy who wanted higher gasoline taxes. I can tell you those taxes affect more than just Kerry , the President and the biased moderator....

BEST45CAL

10-09-2004, 11:01 PM

I am posting my comment from last night again, not because it was spectacular or anything but because I am curious if anyone else picked up on the put down Kerry made

<HR style="COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=1>

Near the beginning of the debate....did anyone else notice that thinly veiled insult to the audience by HorseFace... "I look around this room.....and I only see three people that would be affected by the tax increases (for those making over $200K) I would support....myself, the President, and you too, Charlie!" (Gibson, Moderator) I thought it was incredibly insulting of him to PRESUME that he can discern the income of a person just by LOOKING at them!!
Patriot Heart in OK
Yeah. My wife and I were going off about that, too. You should have heard her scream at Kerry. We talked about that again that afternoon because it still ticks her off. She said to me, "You know what, If I ever meet him, I'm gonna call him a dickhead." LOL

Unless he knew how much each person in the audience makes per year, how could he make a comment like that?

Was it a requirement for each of the audience members to make less than $200K/year?

I sorta doubt it.

CaliGirl

10-09-2004, 11:26 PM

I am posting my comment from last night again, not because it was spectacular or anything but because I am curious if anyone else picked up on the put down Kerry made

Near the beginning of the debate....did anyone else notice that thinly veiled insult to the audience by HorseFace... "I look around this room.....and I only see three people that would be affected by the tax increases (for those making over $200K) I would support....myself, the President, and you too, Charlie!" (Gibson, Moderator) I thought it was incredibly insulting of him to PRESUME that he can discern the income of a person just by LOOKING at them!!
Patriot Heart in OKI caught the nasty ego comment from skerry......thinking there were only 3 in the room who made over $200K! However, with all of the 'homework' skerry did yesterday about the state of MO, did anyone catch the numbers he pointed out to the audience about their state to make GWB look bad? I did, and it made skerry look like he knew a lot. :duh: Skerry tends to do the homework in the state he is debating in, to make it look like he knows everything. I hope American does not believe his BS!

Do make note with the next debate on Oct 13th and I bet he will dish out a lot of numbers of that state to the audience, again to make GWB look bad!

DesertFox

10-09-2004, 11:28 PM

I get tired of hearing about the awful rich. The tax code got all convoluted in the first place because the govt intentionally structured it to induce the rich to invest, thus creating jobs. They did. Then when the investments began paying off, here came the idiot Left crying about corporate welfare. You can't win with people like that. You can't, and neither can anyone else.

Riverboat

10-09-2004, 11:47 PM

John Kerry puts himself to sleep every night chanting the same mantra over and over again: "Tax cuts for the wealthy! Tax cuts for the wealthy! Tax cuts for the wealthy! Tax cuts for . . . " He alternates this with his other mantra: "I have a plan! I have a plan! I have . . ."

kate

10-10-2004, 02:23 AM

A family that earns $22,000 doesn't pay any taxes, so there is no way that that family could get a tax cut. In fact, that family probably gets more than $1,000 in refundable earned income tax credit.
I didnt say "family" I said "someone". I was refferring to Bush's waitress-story..

nosferatuscoffin

10-10-2004, 02:26 AM

Does not matter. The cutoff from Federal income tax is about $26K. Whether it is a family or one person, that income is not subject to tax.

As for the waitress, she as likely as not, as receiving an EITC check, all for not paying taxes.

kate

10-10-2004, 02:28 AM

What the heck? DId I say "INCOME" tax or did I say "TAX" ... there is something like wagetax too. There are more taxes than just income tax, dude.

Peachdiane

10-10-2004, 04:33 AM

That is all well and good in a peacetime economy, but in a wartime economy, such as the one we have now, the spending well is for our troops and security.

Of course we can do without the additional entitlements that the President has supported which is one my disagreements with him.

I can't see how Kerry is going to have tax cuts for the middle class. Isn't this the guy who wanted higher gasoline taxes. I can tell you those taxes affect more than just Kerry , the President and the biased moderator....
Sorry I didn't clarify spending. I have no problem with national defense spending. I'm talking about continuing to support Leftist pork programs. Spending money on advanced weaponry to fight terrorism is far more important than funding the National Endowment for the Arts or the Corporation for Public Broadcasting.....

kate

10-10-2004, 05:58 AM

i found an interesting article to the debate- Its a little factcheck on the debate by CNN Political Unit:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/10/08/factcheck/index.html

and the debate transcript might be interesting for those who missed the debate: http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/10/08/debate.transcript/index.html

DoctorDoom

10-10-2004, 06:58 AM

Well, now, there's a minor hiccup here. We trust the Clinton News Network about as much as we trust Mikey Mooron.

Patriot Heart

10-10-2004, 07:04 AM

So Kate, is it our opinion that people who make under 26K should be exempt from ALL forms of tax? Property, sales, etc? NONSENSE. I see alot of people who earn under 26K that somehow are able to afford to smoke cigs and drink beer. If they can do that then they can pay the same freakin' sales tax I have to pay.
Patriot Heart in OK

kate

10-10-2004, 07:30 AM

Sigh. Learn to read.

And for once and for all: A president of a country should not cut the money for the average american to finance making richer people richer. He also shouldnt rise costs for the richer people to give poor people a special treatment.

He should choose a fair way to help both. From my point of view, Bush's taxcuts, didn't have that aim although he claimed it.

Since you don't agree with me although facts speak against you and since you claim that any non-republican source is a biased source I do not see the point in staying part of this debate. You are obviously not willing to debate, you moreover seem to aggressively try to make me elaborate over and over again when it's not necessary.

if you are sure that you are right, then you might aswell stay relaxed when debating a subject like this.

BEST45CAL

10-10-2004, 08:36 AM

I agree. Everybody has a preference for long-term solutions for economic problems. But Bush's pro-rich taxcuts won't have that much of an effect.
Typical liberal mantra that's been going on for years.

I watched the final 1988 presidential debate last night and the liberal democrat candidate kept saying the same thing, "tax cuts for the rich...tax cuts for the rich." But that's typical for a democrat to tell you half the story.

Tax cuts benefit all who pay taxes. Is someone who earns $50K/year suddenly a rich person? According to the democrats you are!

Wealth isn't based on how much you make, it's based on how much you get to keep.

Naturalized-Texan

10-10-2004, 09:19 AM

I didnt say "family" I said "someone". I was refferring to Bush's waitress-story..

Read your sentence again. You were clearly talking about families. However, a single person earning $22,000 did get a tax cut of $350 by having her first $7,000 taxed at a 10% rate rather than at the 15% rate as it was before the Bush tax cuts.

Maggie_T

10-10-2004, 09:29 AM

Hey, we got our tax cuts. And neither my husband, nor I are rich by any stretch of the imagination. :)

Naturalized-Texan

10-10-2004, 09:31 AM

And for once and for all: A president of a country should not cut the money for the average american to finance making richer people richer. He also shouldnt rise costs for the richer people to give poor people a special treatment.

You're parroting another liberal lie. By cutting taxes across the board as President Bush did, all taxpayers had their taxes reduced and many had their taxes eliminated altogether. Moreover, the tax burden of the top 1%, 5%, 10% and 20% actually INCREASED due to the Bush tax cuts.

http://users4.ev1.net/~rwadding/2004_Tax_Cut.jpg

Moreover, the people in those top tax brackets use the money returned to them by the tax cuts to invest in expanding the economy and create more and better paying jobs for those in the lower brackets. That's why, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics (http://www.bls.gov/schedule/archives/empsit_nr.htm), there are more than 3.7 million more Americans employed today than when President Bush took office.

Maggie_T

10-10-2004, 09:33 AM

Typical liberal mantra that's been going on for years.

I watched the final 1988 presidential debate last night and the liberal democrat candidate kept saying the same thing, "tax cuts for the rich...tax cuts for the rich." But that's typical for a democrat to tell you half the story.

Tax cuts benefit all who pay taxes. Is someone who earns $50K/year suddenly a rich person? According to the democrats you are!

Wealth isn't based on how much you make, it's based on how much you get to keep.
You won't change that, Best. The words Tax Cuts for The Rich are seared in the liberals' mind! Seared!

Courtesy of leftist brainwashing.

Naturalized-Texan

10-10-2004, 09:36 AM

BTW, even after the Bush tax cuts, a married couple earning more than about $85,000 (it was $84,389 in 2003) is considered rich because they have to pay the top marginal tax rate.

kate

10-10-2004, 11:36 AM

Wealth isn't based on how much you make, it's based on how much you get to keep.
Hmm...according to the National Tax Comittee of the congress a family with an anually income of 45.000 Dollars would save even less than 1 % of their net income. (380 Dollars) while a household with 525.000 Dollars annually income would pay 3% of their net income.. do the math: 12.496 Dollars.
Bush claimed that exact taxcuts (i dontremember the date of when he actually said this but it got repeated by him and Cheney a lot) would help everyone to keep more money. The proportions of who keeps how much don't seem fair to me though.

Btw i never said that a family with 50k would be classed wealthy..

I am not a liberal - for whatever reason you keep calling me it - I just don't understand why you keep talking down to me. I am not talking down to you either. Just because I disagree with you you dont have to try to twist my words and make me repeat myself. I am not dumb.

I do respect your point of view. But I do not understand it. You can't seriously believe that all the reports of national and private comitees were just liberal bias.

Beowulf

10-10-2004, 12:25 PM

Kate, have you ever seen fair media coverage for Conservatives? I haven't. I'm going off topic slightly but it makes my point.

The media praised US involvement in Kosovo and Serbia under the Clinton administration as a humanitarian effort. George Bush is criticized for doing the same for the Iraqi people who now live free from prosecution from Saddam Hussein who would execute anyone who disagreed with him. Despite the war, we are providing humanitarian effort by providing good water and so forth. Where do I hear this? From personal accounts of those who are there, NOT CBS, ABC or NBC who keep showing doom and gloom.

I have also seen on more than one occasion someone like a Katie Couric take an interview with someone and turn it into a political debate, trying to defend social programs and such. How well the interview goes when the interviewee sides with her. If you don't, you are politely verbally bashed. Ask Denzel Washington.

There are more issues than I can think of up front but I do believe I've made my point. The media praises Liberals and frowns upon Conservatives. They'll do anything to make the latter look bad. Dan Rather proves it.

BEST45CAL

10-10-2004, 12:51 PM

Hmm...according to the National Tax Comittee of the congress a family with an anually income of 45.000 Dollars would save even less than 1 % of their net income. (380 Dollars) while a household with 525.000 Dollars annually income would pay 3% of their net income.. do the math: 12.496 Dollars.
Bush claimed that exact taxcuts (i dontremember the date of when he actually said this but it got repeated by him and Cheney a lot) would help everyone to keep more money. The proportions of who keeps how much don't seem fair to me though.

Btw i never said that a family with 50k would be classed wealthy..

I am not a liberal - for whatever reason you keep calling me it - I just don't understand why you keep talking down to me. I am not talking down to you either. Just because I disagree with you you dont have to try to twist my words and make me repeat myself. I am not dumb.

I do respect your point of view. But I do not understand it. You can't seriously believe that all the reports of national and private comitees were just liberal bias.It depends upon the source of your information. In general, I tend not to believe what liberals have to say only because they are wrong pretty much all of the time.

People who make more money will get a larger benefit. Simple math tells us that. If you pay more in taxes, you ought to get a larger refund than someone who pays less, but the socialists and liberals don't think so. They think you ought to give as much as you can to the government.

What would be the incentive to be financially successful if you're forced to give it all away?

Poor people don't creat