HELP!!!!!Oklahoma City bombing, what really happened

[Black Phoenix]

Any help? The official story says that McVeigh did it alone with one bomb outside the building, but live reports during the event talked about bombs inside the building. Witnesses report feeling two explosions not one... I've been trying to find a refutation of the conspiracy theory on this for years, but even my own memory tells me that the news reporters on that day were talking about bombs inside the building. The best refutation I have is, if there was a cover up, it was embrassingly sloppy. But still, why doesn't anyone but the conspiracy theorists ever talk about the bombs inside the building?

I don't want to believe this theory... but it is.... what is it? True? A lie?

[meshuga_mikey]

I highly reccomend reading

http://www.jaynadavis.com/images/book.jpg


the http://www.jaynadavis.com/


Jayna Davis was the local OK City jounalist that broke the news about John Doe number 2

she backs up everything in her assesment of thier being a former member of Saddams husseins Republican Guard at the center of the plans for the bombing

[Timberwolf]

This may help you out....The info is from Brigadier General Benton K. Partin, USAF (Ret.).

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/OK/PARTIN/okm.htm

[Triller]

Why would the government cover it up though?

[Peachdiane]

McVeigh did it alone? No, there's no way McVeigh had capability of blowing up the Murrah Building without considerable help. And he was not a militiaman; he was a terrorist.

Triller, this was one of Clinton's great coverups. He used OKC to save his presidency and to go after "right wing" hate and militia groups. He completely ignored Islamic terror and allowed it to grow out of control.

[Wyatt_Junker]

Why would the government cover it up though?Convenience.

Clinton's entire presidency was about 'not rocking the boat'. He did not want his presidency mired in any complications that would require him to actually confront the Islamic brotherhood. Remember, his administration authored political correctness as we know it today; racial profiling, gays in the military, the re-architecture of language toward a more 'soft' approach through all government organizations. I think it actually came as a a relief that in OKC there was a whiff of white skin pigmentation, because he could navel gaze at his own country rather than look outward. The last thing he wanted was a real worldwide confrontation. He intuited the kind of political death that would create for his admin. And he already had the WTC 1 bombing on his watch which was Muslim extremism. If he got another one of those, he would have to, be forced to act at the very countries that hosted those attacks. I think Clinton sighed with relief that he could foist a ponzi here in Oklahoma. It was politically relaxing and helped him assume his role as 'statesman'. Statesmen don't go to war. War is a failure to that mindset. Statesmen 'talk'. Talk is regarded as nearly sacred.

And Clinton was right. Just look at Bush. Ever since Iraq, he's been relentlessly attacked as a warmongerer. An un-pc, hillbilly. Clinton was also a hillbilly, but unlike Bush, was trying to run away from that label. He didn't want to own it. And war was just too dirty. Most of his acts of macho were aimed at domestic, ATF-type of scuffs through that ugly creature with the hypertrophied thyroid known as Janet Reno.

But, since Clinton was so enamored with the UN, he didn't want to challenge them on any international concerns. It wasn't his style. He would rather people die than rock the boat. The trigger could have been pulled on Osama, but he didn't want 'to assassinate' him and risk a possible lawsuit. The Security Council was rife with Islamic nations and Clinton was more about smiling & patting some backs for a few photo ops. All one has to do is look at his legacy pandering by trying to broker a Middle East peace deal in his last year. It was that very meddling that created the last intifada we are still suffering. All for one man's ego, and the first president ever to try to forge 'a legacy' while still in office. Yes, Clinton was that concerned about his insidious and sociopathic 'what-will-people-think-of-me-when-I'm-gone' while still flying Airforce One.

As to Kosovo, he didn't go through the UN and its sole purpose was to wag the dog and deflect from his impending impeachment. The only time he thought it necessary to go to war was when his domestic career was in jeopardy. The only time Clinton played the macho card was when his dick was on the line, and then it was a war that didn't depend upon protecting America, but rather a feel-good war, unlike Bush.

[Black Phoenix]

Funny thing about a conspiracy... it just doesn't sound feasable. Think about it. The entire FBI would have to be in on it. As well as every other department involoved. No I don't trust Clinton, but I do trust the Federal Bureau of investigation... I think the theorists are the ones lying. It doesn't take long to start finding officail documents and major news outlets that talk about live reports about the bombs inside the buildings. And yet according the the theorists, there's a huge cover up hiding the information about the other bombs... something's fishy about that contradiction...

Going to try a letter to the FBI and ask for infomation, if I get any response, I'll let ya'll know... something's up though, but I don't think it's the government.

[Black Phoenix]

As to Clinton liking the UN, tell me one war we were in where the UN joined Clinton. You all do know, that after Slobadon was arrested for war crimes, Clinton is now being endited by the UN as a war ciminal as well... for bringing him in... ain't the UN and wonderfully pathetic piece o' garbage?

[Timberwolf]

From Part 1 of my link above....

To understand what caused the damage to the Murrah Building, one needs to understand some basics about the use and nature of explosives.

First, blast through air is a very inefficient energy coupling mechanism against heavily reinforced concrete beams and columns.

Second, blast damage potential initially falls off more rapidly than an inverse function of the distance cubed. That is why in conventional weapons development, one seeks accuracy over yield for hard targets. That is also why in the World Trade Center bombing (where the only source of blast damage was a truck bomb) the column in the middle of the bombed-out cavity was relatively untouched, although reinforced concrete floors were completely stripped away for several floors above and below the point of the bomb's detonation (see Time Magazine, 3-8-93, page 35).

By contrast, heavily reinforced concrete structures can be destroyed effectively through detonation of explosives in contact with the reinforced concrete beams and columns. For example, the entire building remains in Oklahoma City were collapsed with 100-plus relatively small charges inserted into drilled holes in the columns. The total weight of all charges was on the order of 200 pounds.

The detonation wave pressure (1,000,000 to 1,500,000 pounds per square inch) from a high detonation velocity contact explosive sweeps into the column as a wave of compressive deformation. Since the pressure in the wave of deformation far exceeds the yield strength of the concrete (about 3,500 pounds per square inch) by a factor of approximately 300, the concrete is turned into granular sand and dust until the wave dissipates to below the yield strength of the concrete. This leaves a relatively smooth but granular surface, with protruding, bare reinforcement rods__a distinctive signature of damage by contact explosives. The effect of the contact explosive on the reinforcement rods themselves can only be seen under microscopic metallurgical examination. (The rods are inertially confined during the explosion and survive basically in tact because of their much higher yield strength and plasticity.) There is much good info at that link...check it out.

[Wyatt_Junker]

Funny thing about a conspiracy... it just doesn't sound feasable. Think about it. The entire FBI would have to be in on it. As well as every other department involoved. No I don't trust Clinton, but I do trust the Federal Bureau of investigation... I think the theorists are the ones lying.

Have you seen the kind of bullshit that comes out of the State Department lately? Its stacked left.

Its a shame Bush didn't gut it out entirely. They're hamstringing him every step of the way with their disinfo campaign on Iraq, even when the evidence suggests otherwise.

Why?

[Wyatt_Junker]

As to Clinton liking the UN, tell me one war we were in where the UN joined Clinton.
Hello? Clinton went into Kosovo as an afterthought. There was no time for UN invovlement. He moved too fast.

H.E.L.L.O.......

anybody there?

[Black Phoenix]

Timberwolf... I'll have to read more of your site... useful.

Mr. Junker, HELLO, I asked for any war (eh em, military movement, an actual war never "occured") Clinton used the UN in. Bosnia, Haiti, Afganistan, Iraq, Conflicts in China, Somalia, Albania. You are aware that we got into quite a few fights during the Clinton years, right? True we never actually accomplished anything, but you know with Democrats, what really matter, is that you care.

Forgive the perhaps obviousness of this question here, but is the FBI even part of the State Department?

[Peachdiane]

Going to try a letter to the FBI and ask for infomation, if I get any response, I'll let ya'll know... something's up though, but I don't think it's the government.

BBBBBBBBBBBWWWWWWWWWWWAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAA AA

Thanks for the HUMOR !! The FBI ??? admit to knowing anything ?? :roar: you are a very funny person !! The FBI missd 9/11 leads ....

dPrasse in drag :eek:

[Black Phoenix]

Hate to burst your collective bubbles guys, but if the intelligence agencies Bush relies on are all in conspiracies, Bush's own ligitimacy is rather irrelivent and extremely doubtful.

[Triller]

The reason I asked was that this kind of reminds me of all those 9/11 consipricy theories. In fact this one is almost identical to the one that claims the world trade centre couldn't have fallen due to planes alone and there must have been explosives inside the building. Throw in the urban myths about certain people and stock being moved suddenly before 9/11 and its pretty much the same theory rehashed. I don't believe either by the way.

[UnkHiram]

McVeigh blew up the building in Oklahoma City, He had help from the other guy convicted (Cant remember his name). All of the Conspiracy theroies out there throw out lots of ways it could have been done, reasons it could not have been done by McVeigh BUT none of them provide any PROOF. I love the one about 100 small explosions ----- DUH, Dont you think someone would have noticed people drilling a hundred holes in the walls. WELL GEE, Maybe.

[Black Phoenix]

Two explosions were reported, as well as bomb reports about bombs inside the building, something about the one bomb only story doesn't wash, getting some FBI files right now, let you know what I see.
http://fbilibrary.fbiacademy.edu/webopac/cgi/swebmnu.exe?act=3&ini=splusweb

BTW: The FBI often opposes the State Department. I asked specifically about the FBI, why did I get a bunch of trash on the State deparment?!!!:hissyfit:

[meshuga_mikey]

Get Jaynas Davis' Book Read It Check out the Voluminous footnotes

doesmt anybody else here remember her broadcasts from OK City-----right after the Bombing------- talking about a dark skinned middle eastern looking John Doe Number 2?

[meshuga_mikey]

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/LAW/05/16/mcveigh.john.doe/john_doe_two_lg.jpg


John Doe #2 a Report from 2001 on the CNN website (http://archives.cnn.com/2001/LAW/05/16/mcveigh.john.doe/)

[meshuga_mikey]

Oddly enough the page containing this other drawing of John Doe #2 had been deleted on the KVOO.com website but thanks to the good people at archive.org........it still exists intact in thier collection of archived materials

http://web.archive.org/web/20000505003006/www.kvoo.com/logos/jdoe2.gif



http://web.archive.org/web/20020210220703/http://www.kvoo.com/jd2.htm

pleae not the deleted page at http://www.kvoo.com/jd2.htm

[Wyatt_Junker]

Funny thing about a conspiracy... it just doesn't sound feasable. Think about it. The entire FBI would have to be in on it. Not necessarily.

All it takes is one guy to bury a lead. Happens all the time. See no evil, hear no evil. If the CIA or the State Dept. or even a small minority contingent within those groups want reality to yield a certain way, because they don't want a war(for instance) or it would implicate them(an intelligence **** up), then it becomes very important to control the flow of information.

The internal investigations alone, including senate hearings, mass firings, etc. are plausible motive enough to mitigate the conscience of a few, or even one person in a high enough position to matter. All that person has to do is send the mirrored sunglasses & dark suit fanbois out on a coffee & jelly-filled run while 'intervening'.

I'm unsure as to why you're elevating the Fedz. They're just another tired, bloated arm of the do-what-you're-told crowd. The FBI are little more than overworked gophers, failed cops with a few ticks higher IQ that allows them to glue their asses to office furniture. But if you want to believe that there exists some kind of super hero ethic at play, I can't stop you.

You have to remember, the Clinton admin. was an intelligence gutting cheese shredder. He had this wierd idea that ever since Gorby introduced 'glastnost' while tinking champagne flutes that the world was now history free of all evil. And he voted on intelligence divestment. The problem is, its far harder to win intelligence back once you've scrapped it. Clinton was culpable in OKC. George Tenet was his labrador retriever. And the FBI? Well, since that intelligence was shoddy, not much could truly extend beyond the federal in the federal bureau of investigations. It was a two dimensional card operating table for street corner magicians using sleight of hand.

Wake up and er...smell the government coffee.

[Black Phoenix]

wouldn't the entire military and all intelligence branches be part of your so called "do what your told" crowd?

The conspiracy theories do not simply state the government is trying to avoid war, quite the contrary. They say the government is running a covert war to silence certain individuals. The belief is that the government itself ordered the destruction of the Buidling and then blamed it on McVeigh in order to increase public dislike of far right wing groups.

[Black Phoenix]

well I usually trust the Limbaugh's
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/offer-listing/0895261472//002-4946482-1381651?condition=all
I know somethings up, WACO also bothers me. Is this book any good? (Don't know? $.42 is pretty cheap!

[Peachdiane]

As Wyatt said , folks get railroaded into "guilt" all the time ... just ask the guys sent to IL Death Row by the fine upstanding liberal police force that is agaimst citizens owning guns from Chicago .... all it takes for a few bad "evidence handlers " ...
dP

[Black Phoenix]

Perhaps... I guess only part of the FBI would need to be corrupt, the part investigating this case.

There is suppose to be a trail of the investigation of the Oklahoma City bombing that took place during Bush's term in office, anyone know anything about it?

[Black Phoenix]

In the case, the governments opposition http://www.okcbombing.org/about_us.htm

[DesertFox]

Stay with it, Phoenix. Conspiracy seems pretty "out there" to me, too.

Two guys could easily do what McVeigh and his sidekick did. Technology makes it possible for few to do what once took many. And do it more effectively.

Nobody in 1995 was expecting such a thing, especially in Oklahoma City, so nobody was on guard. It's easy for a guy who knows what he's about to do major harm to the innocent and the unsuspecting -- sucker punches have been deadly since time immemorial.

Actually, it doesn't matter if McVeigh had Middle Eastern help because we're now taking care of all that. It DOES matter if there was some kind of coverup, but if you buy "coverup" then you almost have to buy "conspiracy." It's easy to buy Wyatt's line of reasoning on Clinton; it makes sense, it all hangs together and it fits what we know of that slimeball.

Apart from his incompetence and amorality, Bill Clinton was the laziest president ever in doing what he was elected to do.

[BEST45CAL]

The Murrah building was also the HQ for the branch of the BATF that whacked Koresh. One thing that's always bothered me is that there were no ATF personnel killed in the blast(s).

It wasn't a holiday. Why didn't the BATF show up for work?

Another thing that bothers me is that Koresh jogged daily. Whenever the local authorities wanted to speak to Koresh, they always knew where to find him.

But that's another debate.

[DesertFox]

I knew there was something weird about Koresh besides liking little girls.

[TheRealLobo]

McVeigh blew up the building in Oklahoma City, He had help from the other guy convicted (Cant remember his name). All of the Conspiracy theroies out there throw out lots of ways it could have been done, reasons it could not have been done by McVeigh BUT none of them provide any PROOF. I love the one about 100 small explosions ----- DUH, Dont you think someone would have noticed people drilling a hundred holes in the walls. WELL GEE, Maybe.

Reread it Unk. It says the REMAINS of the building. I expect there were a WHOLE BUNCH of people who saw them drill the hundred holes.


For example, the entire building remains in Oklahoma City were collapsed with 100-plus relatively small charges inserted into drilled holes in the columns. The total weight of all charges was on the order of 200 pounds.[/u][/b]

[ConspiracyBuff]

MESHUGA MIKEY-
"doesnt anybody else here remember her broadcasts from OK City-----right after the Bombing------- talking about a dark skinned middle eastern looking John Doe Number 2?"
I do and i was about to menton it. I saw a very well done History channel report on it. Certainly McVeigh wasnt alone, their were ATF informants within Elohim City (where McVeigh lived with members of the White Aryan Resistance, Klu Klux Klan members and the like) who told authorities that a plan was developed to bomb the Murrah building. However the Janet Reno led State Department ignored these leads, even though a series of 22 bank robberies were attributed to the gang. Its interesting because the Waco incident had scandalized the ATF and gave them the over-agressive image, yet when they had solid info and leads they purposefully ignored them.


"Two days after the OKC bombing, President Clinton vowed: ?Justice for these killers will be certain, swift and severe. We will find them, we will convict them, and we will seek the death penalty against them.? Attorney General Janet Reno and FBI Director Louis Freeh likewise promised that ?no stone will be left unturned? in pursuing all of those responsible for this terrible act."
"Fine words, tough words, but what really happened? In the months and years that followed those promises, the most extensive and expensive investigation in history turned into the model of official coverups. Evidence was intentionally lost, misplaced, tainted, and destroyed. Important witnesses were ignored or harassed and intimidated. Witness testimony was altered and misrepresented. Some of the most important suspect leads were inexplicably ignored, while federal investigators were sent on wild goose chases and interviews with nut cases."-The New American
The New American a conservative magazine which has devoted itself (on account of good detective work) to holding the real perpatraitors responsible for OKCB. If you read these three links(below) you will know more about the conspiracy in a matter of 20-30 mins then most people would in their life. Trust me the in's and out's are covered, a very interesting and sensical plot and cover up is uncovered. It will answer any and all questions with facts and details. It is by no means a conspiracy-oriented obsessed publication, but rather informative and grasping.
http://www.thenewamerican.com/tna/1997/vo13no07/vo13no07_elohim.htm- All about the OKCB and the questions surrounding it.
http://www.thenewamerican.com/artman/publish/article_135.shtml-
All about the American Lattimore and his conversion to Islam and seeming link to all major terrorism attacks in the US-his troubling invincibility concerning the Fed's-Conspiracy-oh yeah
http://www.thenewamerican.com/artman/publish/article_1170.shtml- More on the mysterious German.
If you still arent satisfied and fully convinced of a cover-up, then get all the facts pertaining to the bombs and every aspect of the case for a cover-up here:
http://www.thenewamerican.com/focus/okc/index2.htm