The Dutch start to desert their Changing country

[Webruary]

http://www.opinion.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/12/11/wneth11.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/12/11/ixworld.html

Dutch desert their changing country (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1299023/posts)

<SMALL>The Daily Telegraph (UK) ^ (http://www.freerepublic.com/^http://www.opinion.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/12/11/wneth11.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/12/11/ixworld.html) | December 11, 2004 </SMALL>
<SMALL></SMALL>
<SMALL>By Ambrose Evans-Pritchard in The Hague</SMALL>



An exodus of native-born Dutch in search of a new life abroad has reversed immigration flows for the first time since the post-war era.

Last year more people left the Netherlands than arrived as migrants or asylum seekers, even though unemployment remains low at 4.7 percent and per capita income is higher than any major country in Europe.

Lawyers, accountants, computer specialist, nurses, and businessmen are lining up for visas to the English-speaking world, looking to Australia, New Zealand and Canada as orderly societies where people have the space to breathe.

The new wave of "middle-class flight" has quickened this year following rising ethnic violence and crime committed by and against immigrants, and in response to fears that social order is breaking down. In the first six months there was a net outflow of 13,313 people.

They are disengaging from a multicultural experiment once hailed as the model for the world but now stretched to breaking point. They are also escaping traffic jams and chronic over-crowding.

Requests for visa information have exploded since the murder of Theo van Gogh, a Dutch film-maker and acerbic critic of Muslim views on women.

An all-party report by the Dutch parliament this year concluded that the country's immigration policy had been a failure, leading to sink schools and ethnic ghettoes. The Netherlands has been transformed in barely 30 years from a tight-knit Christian society into a polyethnic state, with three million people of immigrant background.

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[DesertFox]

Voting with their feet.

[Bakellende]

I think the media is overdoing the things. It's now a few months after the murder and nobody talks about it anymore. There where before the murder already problems between muslims and other Dutch people. But that does every country in Western Europe have I think. So, the media has overdone the things a little bit....

[Etaoin]

I think the media is overdoing the things. It's now a few months after the murder and nobody talks about it anymore. There where before the murder already problems between muslims and other Dutch people. But that does every country in Western Europe have I think. So, the media has overdone the things a little bit....Since I do not (actually cannot) read your local media, I cannot evaluate whether your media is "over doing" the inherent conflicts between the Muslim population and the essentially christian populace.

However, from my perspective, that which I have read about the incident, leads me to believe that if anything, the international media have downplayed the problems. The major problem is that the MUSLIM faith is not one that tolerates diversity of either culture or religion, therefore even a "peaceful" mosque is inherently a fifth column that will act to undermine the culture that invites or tolerates Muslim immigration.

While I descry the degeneration of morality and ethics in Western Civilization there is still the freedom to practice whatever religion you follow. Such is not the case when the Muslims are the effective majority. I don't think you would care to live under the SHARIA.

[Warlady]

This thread belongs in the International forum.

[freedumb]

Theo van Gogh didn't just piss off Muslim extremists.

His last film implicated the AIVD (Dutch intellegence agency) in the death of Pim Fortuyn. The group that killed van Gogh were tipped off that they were being watched by the AIVD. The group were being watched except the killer.

This has all been in the national press.

[DesertFox]

So Van Gogh wasn't killed by Muslims?

[CzechPrince]

He was killed by a Muslim, I have heard nothing about the Dutch Intelligence Agency having anything to do with it and I read European News and have realtives there. Maybe freedumb can actually substantiate it or it's just another conspiracy theory.

[freedumb]

I watched his latest film and it does implicate the AIVD in Fortuyn's killing.

Not sure where you could find much English language press about this.
It would hardly have been international news if a Muslim hadn't been involved and I can't see news agents wishing to complicate their general 'muslims are bad' slant.

The details I mentioned are out there (no analysis in English press though)

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=259354
"The authorities arrested a 34-year-old AIVD employee on Sept. 30 on suspicion of betraying state secrets. They held three others on suspicion of distributing the information but they were released last week due to a lack of evidence."


http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/nov2004/gogh-n10.shtml
"Van Gogh was in the process of completing work on his project 06-05. In this film, which is scheduled for release at the start of the coming year, van Gogh presents his own view of Pim Fortuyn as a man prepared to speak out unpleasant truths. Fortuyn is depicted as the victim of a plot that ended with his murder."

[Bakellende]

I can translate Dutch newssubjects about this for you.

Pim Fortuyn was killed by a white person. But was he also in the international news in the same way Theo van Gogh was?

Today's Dutch news about this subject:
http://frontpage.fok.nl/nieuws/50297

It's about a friend of the politician Ayaan Hirsi Ali: Afshin Ellian. He said that the government of the Netherlands acted like an amateur after the killing of van Gogh.
He also said that the Dutch reformed in the party of the CDA and the PvdA capitulated for terrorism.

Also, a Dutch imam said that gay's are European pigs. The imam hates the western habits etc. but he does live in the western world. That's very strange I think. He's not condemned for this. The Dutch minister of justice said about this that the people who are conducting this discussion have to be more moderate (is this the good word? :blush: ).... But Afshin Ellian thinks that the Rotterdamse imam has to be more carefull when choosing the words in the discussion and not the politicians.

Allright, this was my message, I hope that you can read it, the English language is pretty difficult for me, my apologizes for that.....

[DeclinetoState]

I thought the Netherlands was the freest country in the world. Why? Read the quote in my sig.

[hdmundt]

I can translate Dutch newssubjects about this for you.

Pim Fortuyn was killed by a white person. But was he also in the international news in the same way Theo van Gogh was?

Thanks for the translation, but I've I got a few questions. What is the significance of your question? Are you implying that international news organizations don't want to report that the killer is white? What would be the reason for refusing to report that? (Is the killer a Muslim? What is his nationality? What is his ancestry?)
Does Ellian posit that there is a Dutch Reform element in the Dutch intelligence services that is working to have Dutch citizens killed by Muslims in order to foment anti-Muslim sentiment in the non-Muslim population? (Somehow I don't think the law-enforcement / intelligence services in the Netherlands are that far out of control. Isn't it more likely that the AIVD employee was the typical "loner" who acted out of poor judgement and zealotry rather than conspiratorial intra-agency policy?)

FreeDumb's links were interesting, but they weren't that informative. The above questions still apply. I'm not yet willing to give the World Socialist Web Site a lot of credibility. The Dutch authorities made some of the very first post-9/11 arrests among the international criminal set. And, from what I've read over the years, the relationship between American and Dutch intelligence services has been a good one. I don't think this would be the case if Dutch government policy ran to having filmmakers murdered for PR purposes.

If there's something more than propeller-beanie theorizing to this story, it has yet to surface.