The_RANDy_Corporation
03-10-2001, 02:13 PM
LawLass
Forum Host Flame Thrower
posts: 17
(2/24/01 8:45:10 pm)
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I have many, many problems with the legal "reasoning" behind Roe v. Wade. However, I will focus on one problem which has always troubled me about that terrible decision. While the United States Supreme Court balanced the right of the State in the protection of the health of the woman against the privacy right of the woman as an individual, the Court failed to weigh the rights of the other party necessary for the conception of a ________ (fill in the blank with whatever word suits you here: fetus, unborn child, child, son, daughter, life, unborn life, or whatever word you feel describes what is created at the point of conception.) It always strikes me as odd that men who proclaim to be pro-choice are seemingly not troubled by the utter failure of the Supreme Court to consider that a man might acutally want the life to which he has contributed in conceiving to be born.
The Roe Court, in its silence on a man's rights, and in failing to consider the man in its balancing test, apparently presumes that men do not care about the life which they have contributed to conceiving. I find this difficult to reconcile with the fact that I know many fathers who care about their children and to whom parenting is a priority. In fact, I know many men who are single parents raising their children, because their wives have left them for greener (and in some cases, not so greener) pastures.
The Roe Court essentially gave one party to the conception, the woman, the sole discretion to determine whether the life which she and another contributed to creating, would live or die. The man has no voice on this issue. While it is ludicrous to contemplate a man having the legal authority to force a woman to have an abortion, it is equally ludicrous to vest the woman with the sole authority to abort the life which the man has helped to create. Conversely, it is ironic that, while the law grants the man no voice in the decision as to whether his (insert word of choice here) unborn child will live or die, a man who assists in conceiving an "unwanted" child, will most certainly be obligated to pay child support for years to come, if the mother, against his wishes, choses to carry the child full term. Indeed, he may even lose his liberty if he fails to pay child support.
Roe essentially relegated men to the status of mere sperm donors. I look forward to any comments on this aspect of Roe.
"Always do more than is required of you." George S. Patton, Jr.
powaydave
New Member
posts: 5
(2/25/01 1:37:44 pm)
Reply Re: Whatever became of Daddy Roe?
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You are 100% correct in your dissection of this decision, plus it spawned many other "privacy" issues in other areas of living.
Makes you wonder what motivates those people in black robes that work across the street from the Capitol Building in DC.
Muleracer
Forum Host Paladin
posts: 49
(2/25/01 6:27:15 pm)
Reply
Re: Whatever became of Daddy Roe?
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I dont need The Supreme Court to tell me the difference between right and wrong.
Your handgun is for shootin you way to you rifle, that you should have with you in the first place.
tacitus c
Forum Host
posts: 1258
(2/25/01 7:14:54 pm)
Reply
Re: Whatever became of Daddy Roe?
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LawLass
Do men have rights when it comes to children?? I have 4 children and 3.5 grandchildren and love them all beyond description. However, I at times have been made to feel less than human by the courts. My 2nd divorce ~21 yrs ago gave EVERYTHING and I mean everything to my ex, + child support and alimony, which I still pay. I went back to court about 10 yrs ago to try to get a date set to end the alimony, and was made to feel like a baby raper. Do men have rights? Maybe some, but not this one.
Quote:
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Conversely, it is ironic that, while the law grants the man no voice in the decision as to whether his (insert word of choice here) unborn child will live or die, a man who assists in conceiving an "unwanted" child, will most certainly be obligated to pay child support for years to come, if the mother, against his wishes, choses to carry the child full term. Indeed, he may even lose his liberty if he fails to pay child support.
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I missed 2 child support payments and I thought that a SWAT team would kick in my door at any moment to haul me away. My present wife is still mad at the court, (in IL), and fumes everytime the check is sent for the alimony payment. I look at it now as a tax deduction, and chuckle because I know she has to claim it as income.
Thanks for the post.
"No man can establish himself by wickedness,but good men have roots that cannot be dislodged" Proverbs 11:3
Stranglehold
Forum Host
posts: 107
(2/26/01 3:07:39 am)
Reply The System is Broken
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You have not figured this out yet?
I have a friend who is paying $600.00 a month in Child Support for a 7 year old girl.
He has to keep her Insured on his Health Care Plan, a little over $50.00 a month for that.
He makes about $16.00 an hour. If he works overtime, time and a half, or, if he makes double time and a half on holidays, they take more of it. Where is the incentive to even live for the next 11 goddamn years for this man?
I don't care what anyone says, $7,200.00 yearly, plus Medical Expenses, Insurance and if something happens to her, sutures, etc., he has to pay that as well?
He has already been told my his Wife's Lawyer to expect the Orthodontist Bills, and if he refuses?
They will throw his ass in jail. And let a Murderer or a Rapist out so they can fit him in for the Politically Incorrect crime of "Fairness."
You know what his crime was? His Wife slapped him on Thanksgiving Day for some family spat, this was after a long train of being screamed at and badgered and he never laid a hand on her, so what did he do? He simply ended the relationship. He had enough of her. No Police involved...and she can sit on her fat, lazy ass and blow this money, it never goes to the kids...
It's a really great system when you can be legally sodomized by a "Judge," and then, as long as you keep bending over every month, everything is OK, live in squalor.
But don't you stop making those payments and become a [insert spooky music here] a "Deadbeat Dad..."
Because then, you are more of a threat to society than a murderer, armed robber or rapist, and this is a major part of the problem in this country right now. Too many non-violent people being locked up for shit like this or for something stupid like having weed in their possession (and no, I don't smoke it) and what does the wonderful system do?
They let the murderers out to kill some more people.
I can't wait until someone discovers that you can smoke X tree bark, pine needle, pine cone or something equally stupid like pot, and watch them destroy half the countryside trying to eradicate it.
Edited by: Stranglehold at: 2/26/01 11:34:53 am
Jusme2932
New Member
posts: 1
(3/4/01 12:39:45 pm)
Reply Roe v. Wade - Where's the Outrage
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Lawlass...finally, someone else questions this. Having worked in domestic relations court for four years, I am very disappointed that no father (at least to my knowledge) has ever taken this matter back to the Supreme Court (although there is the infamous case of the eggs lawsuit in Blounty County, TN). It amazes me that women (and I'm a female, mind you) are allowed jurisdiction over the decision making for life or death of a fetus and men are to wait to see if they will be made responsible for support if mom so decides to give birth and raise the child....YET, if a man wants the child, even if the mother doesn't, he's not given that option, much less support from mom.
Similarly, as it relates to Orders Of Protection, men (some women, but not many)are subject to a warrantless arrest based on statements put on a petition, with no verification process.
How can this be? I believe in empowering women, but for the life of me I can't understand why women would want to participate in such a biased system.
But my question is....where's the outrage?
Forum Host Flame Thrower
posts: 17
(2/24/01 8:45:10 pm)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have many, many problems with the legal "reasoning" behind Roe v. Wade. However, I will focus on one problem which has always troubled me about that terrible decision. While the United States Supreme Court balanced the right of the State in the protection of the health of the woman against the privacy right of the woman as an individual, the Court failed to weigh the rights of the other party necessary for the conception of a ________ (fill in the blank with whatever word suits you here: fetus, unborn child, child, son, daughter, life, unborn life, or whatever word you feel describes what is created at the point of conception.) It always strikes me as odd that men who proclaim to be pro-choice are seemingly not troubled by the utter failure of the Supreme Court to consider that a man might acutally want the life to which he has contributed in conceiving to be born.
The Roe Court, in its silence on a man's rights, and in failing to consider the man in its balancing test, apparently presumes that men do not care about the life which they have contributed to conceiving. I find this difficult to reconcile with the fact that I know many fathers who care about their children and to whom parenting is a priority. In fact, I know many men who are single parents raising their children, because their wives have left them for greener (and in some cases, not so greener) pastures.
The Roe Court essentially gave one party to the conception, the woman, the sole discretion to determine whether the life which she and another contributed to creating, would live or die. The man has no voice on this issue. While it is ludicrous to contemplate a man having the legal authority to force a woman to have an abortion, it is equally ludicrous to vest the woman with the sole authority to abort the life which the man has helped to create. Conversely, it is ironic that, while the law grants the man no voice in the decision as to whether his (insert word of choice here) unborn child will live or die, a man who assists in conceiving an "unwanted" child, will most certainly be obligated to pay child support for years to come, if the mother, against his wishes, choses to carry the child full term. Indeed, he may even lose his liberty if he fails to pay child support.
Roe essentially relegated men to the status of mere sperm donors. I look forward to any comments on this aspect of Roe.
"Always do more than is required of you." George S. Patton, Jr.
powaydave
New Member
posts: 5
(2/25/01 1:37:44 pm)
Reply Re: Whatever became of Daddy Roe?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You are 100% correct in your dissection of this decision, plus it spawned many other "privacy" issues in other areas of living.
Makes you wonder what motivates those people in black robes that work across the street from the Capitol Building in DC.
Muleracer
Forum Host Paladin
posts: 49
(2/25/01 6:27:15 pm)
Reply
Re: Whatever became of Daddy Roe?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I dont need The Supreme Court to tell me the difference between right and wrong.
Your handgun is for shootin you way to you rifle, that you should have with you in the first place.
tacitus c
Forum Host
posts: 1258
(2/25/01 7:14:54 pm)
Reply
Re: Whatever became of Daddy Roe?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LawLass
Do men have rights when it comes to children?? I have 4 children and 3.5 grandchildren and love them all beyond description. However, I at times have been made to feel less than human by the courts. My 2nd divorce ~21 yrs ago gave EVERYTHING and I mean everything to my ex, + child support and alimony, which I still pay. I went back to court about 10 yrs ago to try to get a date set to end the alimony, and was made to feel like a baby raper. Do men have rights? Maybe some, but not this one.
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Conversely, it is ironic that, while the law grants the man no voice in the decision as to whether his (insert word of choice here) unborn child will live or die, a man who assists in conceiving an "unwanted" child, will most certainly be obligated to pay child support for years to come, if the mother, against his wishes, choses to carry the child full term. Indeed, he may even lose his liberty if he fails to pay child support.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I missed 2 child support payments and I thought that a SWAT team would kick in my door at any moment to haul me away. My present wife is still mad at the court, (in IL), and fumes everytime the check is sent for the alimony payment. I look at it now as a tax deduction, and chuckle because I know she has to claim it as income.
Thanks for the post.
"No man can establish himself by wickedness,but good men have roots that cannot be dislodged" Proverbs 11:3
Stranglehold
Forum Host
posts: 107
(2/26/01 3:07:39 am)
Reply The System is Broken
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You have not figured this out yet?
I have a friend who is paying $600.00 a month in Child Support for a 7 year old girl.
He has to keep her Insured on his Health Care Plan, a little over $50.00 a month for that.
He makes about $16.00 an hour. If he works overtime, time and a half, or, if he makes double time and a half on holidays, they take more of it. Where is the incentive to even live for the next 11 goddamn years for this man?
I don't care what anyone says, $7,200.00 yearly, plus Medical Expenses, Insurance and if something happens to her, sutures, etc., he has to pay that as well?
He has already been told my his Wife's Lawyer to expect the Orthodontist Bills, and if he refuses?
They will throw his ass in jail. And let a Murderer or a Rapist out so they can fit him in for the Politically Incorrect crime of "Fairness."
You know what his crime was? His Wife slapped him on Thanksgiving Day for some family spat, this was after a long train of being screamed at and badgered and he never laid a hand on her, so what did he do? He simply ended the relationship. He had enough of her. No Police involved...and she can sit on her fat, lazy ass and blow this money, it never goes to the kids...
It's a really great system when you can be legally sodomized by a "Judge," and then, as long as you keep bending over every month, everything is OK, live in squalor.
But don't you stop making those payments and become a [insert spooky music here] a "Deadbeat Dad..."
Because then, you are more of a threat to society than a murderer, armed robber or rapist, and this is a major part of the problem in this country right now. Too many non-violent people being locked up for shit like this or for something stupid like having weed in their possession (and no, I don't smoke it) and what does the wonderful system do?
They let the murderers out to kill some more people.
I can't wait until someone discovers that you can smoke X tree bark, pine needle, pine cone or something equally stupid like pot, and watch them destroy half the countryside trying to eradicate it.
Edited by: Stranglehold at: 2/26/01 11:34:53 am
Jusme2932
New Member
posts: 1
(3/4/01 12:39:45 pm)
Reply Roe v. Wade - Where's the Outrage
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lawlass...finally, someone else questions this. Having worked in domestic relations court for four years, I am very disappointed that no father (at least to my knowledge) has ever taken this matter back to the Supreme Court (although there is the infamous case of the eggs lawsuit in Blounty County, TN). It amazes me that women (and I'm a female, mind you) are allowed jurisdiction over the decision making for life or death of a fetus and men are to wait to see if they will be made responsible for support if mom so decides to give birth and raise the child....YET, if a man wants the child, even if the mother doesn't, he's not given that option, much less support from mom.
Similarly, as it relates to Orders Of Protection, men (some women, but not many)are subject to a warrantless arrest based on statements put on a petition, with no verification process.
How can this be? I believe in empowering women, but for the life of me I can't understand why women would want to participate in such a biased system.
But my question is....where's the outrage?