The_RANDy_Corporation
03-10-2001, 02:22 PM
EagleTed
Gold Star Member
posts: 37
(2/2/01 4:57:06 pm)
Reply Tort Reform Needed
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The recent Chapter 11's filed by most
companies who produced or bought companies
that produced asbestos products is more
proof that Tort Reform must be a high
priority for the Bush administration.
Since mid-1999 the number of asbestos related
claims have sky-rocketed. Which is not
coincidentally when tobacco related claims
fell.
Life, Liberty, Property
The RANDy Corporation
Gold Star Member
posts: 124
(2/2/01 5:04:52 pm)
Reply | Edit
What a terrible idea
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tort law is the only thing that keeps us safe from profiteering evil corporations. Besides, it makes me a decent living!
------------ Joshua 24:15
EagleTed
Gold Star Member
posts: 39
(2/2/01 5:12:13 pm)
Reply Re: What a terrible idea
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And when the last "evil" corporation
leaves America, who do you sue?
Life, Liberty, Property
pjallittle
Gold Star Member
posts: 378
(2/2/01 6:05:42 pm)
Reply .
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited by: pjallittle at: 2/6/01 9:45:21 pm
pjallittle
Gold Star Member
posts: 400
(2/3/01 3:41:27 am)
Reply .
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited by: pjallittle at: 2/6/01 9:46:46 pm
The RANDy Corporation
Gold Star Member
posts: 128
(2/3/01 1:54:09 pm)
Reply | Edit
Middle ground needed
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eagle Ted: I defend for this nation's largest insurers. I don't generally do the suing.
In all seriousness. I know as sure as I am sitting here, that we are safer in hospitals and in using some products because or tort law, not because of a governmental regulatory scheme.
I also know we pay a far higher price for goods and services because of tort law. I have the luxury of working in a conservative area, but Madison County and St. Claire County, Illinois, are just down the road and the crap that gets pulled down there would boggle your mind. Definintely the best judges money can buy.
Bad faith law is the tail that wags the dog. I have seen my share of cases get settled for policy limits which are worth no where near that because someone, either the company or the lawyer, is afaid to run the risk. There is little to no risk to the insured because his cause of action for the insurer's bad-faith or the defense lawyer's malpractice of breach of fidiciary duty (which ever you want to call it) will be assigned to the judgment creditor and enforced against an insurer.
Class actions are currently the area of greatest abuse.
So, how do you "reform" the areas where legitimate reform is clearly needed without doing violence to the areas that are doing just fine? I don't know.
I do know this. Every time they pass a "reform", I make more money.
------------ Joshua 24:15
pjallittle
Gold Star Member
posts: 406
(2/3/01 2:33:38 pm)
Reply .
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited by: pjallittle at: 2/6/01 9:44:52 pm
The RANDy Corporation
Gold Star Member
posts: 134
(2/3/01 4:05:55 pm)
Reply | Edit
War Stories
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PJ
I bet you have a lot of fun war stories working in a front line firm like that! Must have been exciting.
I was licensed in '81. Started w/ a big rep plaintiff's lawyer in Illinois and parted after 4 years.
Don't do too much products. A lot of med mal. A lot of your average casualty stuff. Mainly defend 3rd party cases. I worked w/ an LA firm long ago on some drug cases, I think it was marcaine and can't recall their names now. One of the big time plaintiff's guys hit them for about 17 mil and just ran rings around the New York City lawyers they brought in to defend. Stuffed shirts!!
We are trying to get into the HMO stuff, but were tight w/ one HMO and then they merged w/ someone else. Everyone says that HMO and health insurance lit will be the big thing this coming decade. Any bad result in a "managed care" situation will be scrutinized due to the fidutiary duty and financial incentives not to treat. Should be interesting.
How did you "break the back" of that firm???
Sounds kinda scary for a simple, country lawyer like me.
------------ Joshua 24:15
Rhino
Gold Star Member
posts: 195
(2/3/01 4:14:12 pm)
Reply
Re: Tort Reform Needed
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh my God, a lawyer thread!
Don't overanalyze this guys. Tort reform in the eyes of the average American is not the elimination of redress by lawsuit. It is simply the reduction of tort system abuse, such as filing million dollar suits for actions resulting from your own blatant stupidity and using lawsuits to advance political agendas. The common idea of righting wrongs via lawsuits will still be kept intact.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"We have every right to dream heroic dreams." - Ronald Reagan
http://www.siscom.net/~simdad
pjallittle
Gold Star Member
posts: 408
(2/3/01 5:04:02 pm)
Reply .
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited by: pjallittle at: 2/6/01 9:46:07 pm
EagleTed
Gold Star Member
posts: 43
(2/3/01 6:01:53 pm)
Reply Tort Reform
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For one, pay if you lose should work both ways.
For another, class action should not be allowed.
And finally, damages should be limited to X times
whatever amount can be quantified (X to be hammered
out in the legislature).
The RANDy Corporation
Forum Host
posts: 152
(2/6/01 11:43:15 am)
Reply | Edit
Rhino and Eagle Ted
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eagle Ted said: For one, pay if you lose should work both ways.
For another, class action should not be allowed.
And finally, damages should be limited to X times
whatever amount can be quantified (X to be hammered
out in the legislature).
RANDy Responds: pay if you lose is in effect in England, not in most cases here except where the fed has specifically put it in place by statute. Class actions are grossly abused. But, if you do away with them totally then a big abuser can rip us off $1 at a time and no one will ever have a big enough stake to stop it. Limited damages, OK tell me what the limit is, don't just duck the issue by saying the all wise legislature should pick a number out of a hat. Is 1 million too much? Not if your real damages are 2 mil.
One size fits all justice is not justice at all.
Rhino: What's wrong w/ a lawyer thread. I had a nice thread about some Clinton thing or another at one time in TH and it got totally hijacked by Buffy the Vampire fans!
------------ Joshua 24:15
CAinLondon
New Member
posts: 21
(2/6/01 11:53:13 am)
Reply Re: Rhino and Eagle Ted
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Buffy's a babe.
Rhino
Forum Host
posts: 225
(2/6/01 11:54:41 am)
Reply
Re: Rhino and Eagle Ted
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nothing wrong with a lawyer thread. It just looked like the issue of tort reform was being overanalyzed by the lawyers, effectively removing the thread from the average layman citizen that would like to address the concept without being bombarded by massive legalese. Basically, the non-lawyers can't see the forest for the trees when you guys get deep into the lawyer stuff. I was merely trying to point that out.
Re pay as you lose: Had a beef with an insurance carrier in Nebraska a few years back. Had what was basically considered an open and shut case, but I couldn't pursue it. You see, Nebraska does not allow you to collect legal expenses. In essense, you had to be rich to seek satisfaction in the courts, and the damage had to be severe enough to outweigh the hefty legal costs incurred in seeking a settlement. Fortunately, the state insurance commission came to my rescue, but many others cannot right wrongs because they simply can't afford it. I realize the need to limit the ability to file frivolous lawsuits, but outright prohibitions like this really kill the little guy.
Agree with you on class action. Eliminate the abuses, not class action in general.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"We have every right to dream heroic dreams." - Ronald Reagan
http://www.siscom.net/~simdad
EagleTed
Forum Host
posts: 67
(2/6/01 5:41:44 pm)
Reply Re: Rhino and Eagle Ted
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rhino, you have the ability to
analyze data. How hard would it
be to conduct a study of nations
around the world to see which
nations have less lawsuits, less
bankruptcies resulting from lawsuits,
less costs to consumers due to
lawsuits, and see what they're
doing right, and what we're doing
wrong?
I'm no expert, but I see a broken
system that is only going to get worse.
Life, Liberty, Property
Rhino
Forum Host
posts: 239
(2/7/01 9:36:28 am)
Reply
Re: Rhino and Eagle Ted
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Collecting the figures would be easy enough. Making them meaningful would be dramatically difficult. In any analysis, you have to eliminate or compensate for variables to make your data and conclusions empirical. It's like comparing per capita crime data for the U.S. and the U.K. Getting the figures is easy. Interpreting them correctly can require significant effort. The scenario you suggest has a massive amount of variables that would need to be accounted for before any conclusions could be considered empirical evidence. Given the changes in governments, laws, societal attitudes, etc. around the world, it would be an enormous task. However, if you only wanted anecdotal evidence for some reason, then you could do it much easier. But be prepared to defend yourself because, typically, many will examine it for validity.
I agree we have a broken system that is getting worse, unless reform is enacted. I see two basic needs, with the details to be worked out by the legal eagles.
1. Judges should not be allowed to legislate from the bench. This is a usurpation of the separation of powers.
2. There should be controls to minimize, and penalties for bringing, frivolous lawsuits.
Although it's not a reform per se, something else you intimated at in your post should be advertised to the public. There are simply not enough people who are aware of the bankruptcies, unemployment, and other consumer costs that are incurred as a result of these lawsuits. They seem to think the settlement magically appears out of a corporate coffer or insurance company bank account. They don't realize that it is they who are footing the bills.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"We have every right to dream heroic dreams." - Ronald Reagan
http://www.siscom.net/~simdad
Edited by: Rhino at: 2/7/01 9:41:23 am
The RANDy Corporation
Forum Host
posts: 155
(2/7/01 9:46:55 am)
Reply | Edit
Amen
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rhino's analysis is insightful and correct.
But, I stand by my original statement. The more "reform" that you put in place, the more money I make.
------------ Joshua 24:15
Rhino
Forum Host
posts: 240
(2/7/01 11:57:54 am)
Reply
Re: Amen
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nothing wrong with making money.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"We have every right to dream heroic dreams." - Ronald Reagan
http://www.siscom.net/~simdad
Gold Star Member
posts: 37
(2/2/01 4:57:06 pm)
Reply Tort Reform Needed
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The recent Chapter 11's filed by most
companies who produced or bought companies
that produced asbestos products is more
proof that Tort Reform must be a high
priority for the Bush administration.
Since mid-1999 the number of asbestos related
claims have sky-rocketed. Which is not
coincidentally when tobacco related claims
fell.
Life, Liberty, Property
The RANDy Corporation
Gold Star Member
posts: 124
(2/2/01 5:04:52 pm)
Reply | Edit
What a terrible idea
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tort law is the only thing that keeps us safe from profiteering evil corporations. Besides, it makes me a decent living!
------------ Joshua 24:15
EagleTed
Gold Star Member
posts: 39
(2/2/01 5:12:13 pm)
Reply Re: What a terrible idea
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And when the last "evil" corporation
leaves America, who do you sue?
Life, Liberty, Property
pjallittle
Gold Star Member
posts: 378
(2/2/01 6:05:42 pm)
Reply .
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited by: pjallittle at: 2/6/01 9:45:21 pm
pjallittle
Gold Star Member
posts: 400
(2/3/01 3:41:27 am)
Reply .
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited by: pjallittle at: 2/6/01 9:46:46 pm
The RANDy Corporation
Gold Star Member
posts: 128
(2/3/01 1:54:09 pm)
Reply | Edit
Middle ground needed
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eagle Ted: I defend for this nation's largest insurers. I don't generally do the suing.
In all seriousness. I know as sure as I am sitting here, that we are safer in hospitals and in using some products because or tort law, not because of a governmental regulatory scheme.
I also know we pay a far higher price for goods and services because of tort law. I have the luxury of working in a conservative area, but Madison County and St. Claire County, Illinois, are just down the road and the crap that gets pulled down there would boggle your mind. Definintely the best judges money can buy.
Bad faith law is the tail that wags the dog. I have seen my share of cases get settled for policy limits which are worth no where near that because someone, either the company or the lawyer, is afaid to run the risk. There is little to no risk to the insured because his cause of action for the insurer's bad-faith or the defense lawyer's malpractice of breach of fidiciary duty (which ever you want to call it) will be assigned to the judgment creditor and enforced against an insurer.
Class actions are currently the area of greatest abuse.
So, how do you "reform" the areas where legitimate reform is clearly needed without doing violence to the areas that are doing just fine? I don't know.
I do know this. Every time they pass a "reform", I make more money.
------------ Joshua 24:15
pjallittle
Gold Star Member
posts: 406
(2/3/01 2:33:38 pm)
Reply .
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited by: pjallittle at: 2/6/01 9:44:52 pm
The RANDy Corporation
Gold Star Member
posts: 134
(2/3/01 4:05:55 pm)
Reply | Edit
War Stories
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PJ
I bet you have a lot of fun war stories working in a front line firm like that! Must have been exciting.
I was licensed in '81. Started w/ a big rep plaintiff's lawyer in Illinois and parted after 4 years.
Don't do too much products. A lot of med mal. A lot of your average casualty stuff. Mainly defend 3rd party cases. I worked w/ an LA firm long ago on some drug cases, I think it was marcaine and can't recall their names now. One of the big time plaintiff's guys hit them for about 17 mil and just ran rings around the New York City lawyers they brought in to defend. Stuffed shirts!!
We are trying to get into the HMO stuff, but were tight w/ one HMO and then they merged w/ someone else. Everyone says that HMO and health insurance lit will be the big thing this coming decade. Any bad result in a "managed care" situation will be scrutinized due to the fidutiary duty and financial incentives not to treat. Should be interesting.
How did you "break the back" of that firm???
Sounds kinda scary for a simple, country lawyer like me.
------------ Joshua 24:15
Rhino
Gold Star Member
posts: 195
(2/3/01 4:14:12 pm)
Reply
Re: Tort Reform Needed
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh my God, a lawyer thread!
Don't overanalyze this guys. Tort reform in the eyes of the average American is not the elimination of redress by lawsuit. It is simply the reduction of tort system abuse, such as filing million dollar suits for actions resulting from your own blatant stupidity and using lawsuits to advance political agendas. The common idea of righting wrongs via lawsuits will still be kept intact.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"We have every right to dream heroic dreams." - Ronald Reagan
http://www.siscom.net/~simdad
pjallittle
Gold Star Member
posts: 408
(2/3/01 5:04:02 pm)
Reply .
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited by: pjallittle at: 2/6/01 9:46:07 pm
EagleTed
Gold Star Member
posts: 43
(2/3/01 6:01:53 pm)
Reply Tort Reform
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For one, pay if you lose should work both ways.
For another, class action should not be allowed.
And finally, damages should be limited to X times
whatever amount can be quantified (X to be hammered
out in the legislature).
The RANDy Corporation
Forum Host
posts: 152
(2/6/01 11:43:15 am)
Reply | Edit
Rhino and Eagle Ted
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eagle Ted said: For one, pay if you lose should work both ways.
For another, class action should not be allowed.
And finally, damages should be limited to X times
whatever amount can be quantified (X to be hammered
out in the legislature).
RANDy Responds: pay if you lose is in effect in England, not in most cases here except where the fed has specifically put it in place by statute. Class actions are grossly abused. But, if you do away with them totally then a big abuser can rip us off $1 at a time and no one will ever have a big enough stake to stop it. Limited damages, OK tell me what the limit is, don't just duck the issue by saying the all wise legislature should pick a number out of a hat. Is 1 million too much? Not if your real damages are 2 mil.
One size fits all justice is not justice at all.
Rhino: What's wrong w/ a lawyer thread. I had a nice thread about some Clinton thing or another at one time in TH and it got totally hijacked by Buffy the Vampire fans!
------------ Joshua 24:15
CAinLondon
New Member
posts: 21
(2/6/01 11:53:13 am)
Reply Re: Rhino and Eagle Ted
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Buffy's a babe.
Rhino
Forum Host
posts: 225
(2/6/01 11:54:41 am)
Reply
Re: Rhino and Eagle Ted
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nothing wrong with a lawyer thread. It just looked like the issue of tort reform was being overanalyzed by the lawyers, effectively removing the thread from the average layman citizen that would like to address the concept without being bombarded by massive legalese. Basically, the non-lawyers can't see the forest for the trees when you guys get deep into the lawyer stuff. I was merely trying to point that out.
Re pay as you lose: Had a beef with an insurance carrier in Nebraska a few years back. Had what was basically considered an open and shut case, but I couldn't pursue it. You see, Nebraska does not allow you to collect legal expenses. In essense, you had to be rich to seek satisfaction in the courts, and the damage had to be severe enough to outweigh the hefty legal costs incurred in seeking a settlement. Fortunately, the state insurance commission came to my rescue, but many others cannot right wrongs because they simply can't afford it. I realize the need to limit the ability to file frivolous lawsuits, but outright prohibitions like this really kill the little guy.
Agree with you on class action. Eliminate the abuses, not class action in general.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"We have every right to dream heroic dreams." - Ronald Reagan
http://www.siscom.net/~simdad
EagleTed
Forum Host
posts: 67
(2/6/01 5:41:44 pm)
Reply Re: Rhino and Eagle Ted
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rhino, you have the ability to
analyze data. How hard would it
be to conduct a study of nations
around the world to see which
nations have less lawsuits, less
bankruptcies resulting from lawsuits,
less costs to consumers due to
lawsuits, and see what they're
doing right, and what we're doing
wrong?
I'm no expert, but I see a broken
system that is only going to get worse.
Life, Liberty, Property
Rhino
Forum Host
posts: 239
(2/7/01 9:36:28 am)
Reply
Re: Rhino and Eagle Ted
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Collecting the figures would be easy enough. Making them meaningful would be dramatically difficult. In any analysis, you have to eliminate or compensate for variables to make your data and conclusions empirical. It's like comparing per capita crime data for the U.S. and the U.K. Getting the figures is easy. Interpreting them correctly can require significant effort. The scenario you suggest has a massive amount of variables that would need to be accounted for before any conclusions could be considered empirical evidence. Given the changes in governments, laws, societal attitudes, etc. around the world, it would be an enormous task. However, if you only wanted anecdotal evidence for some reason, then you could do it much easier. But be prepared to defend yourself because, typically, many will examine it for validity.
I agree we have a broken system that is getting worse, unless reform is enacted. I see two basic needs, with the details to be worked out by the legal eagles.
1. Judges should not be allowed to legislate from the bench. This is a usurpation of the separation of powers.
2. There should be controls to minimize, and penalties for bringing, frivolous lawsuits.
Although it's not a reform per se, something else you intimated at in your post should be advertised to the public. There are simply not enough people who are aware of the bankruptcies, unemployment, and other consumer costs that are incurred as a result of these lawsuits. They seem to think the settlement magically appears out of a corporate coffer or insurance company bank account. They don't realize that it is they who are footing the bills.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"We have every right to dream heroic dreams." - Ronald Reagan
http://www.siscom.net/~simdad
Edited by: Rhino at: 2/7/01 9:41:23 am
The RANDy Corporation
Forum Host
posts: 155
(2/7/01 9:46:55 am)
Reply | Edit
Amen
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rhino's analysis is insightful and correct.
But, I stand by my original statement. The more "reform" that you put in place, the more money I make.
------------ Joshua 24:15
Rhino
Forum Host
posts: 240
(2/7/01 11:57:54 am)
Reply
Re: Amen
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nothing wrong with making money.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"We have every right to dream heroic dreams." - Ronald Reagan
http://www.siscom.net/~simdad