Do you believe in clinical depression? [Archive]

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okkervil

12-30-2004, 05:34 PM

HomeschoolrsRUs

12-30-2004, 06:59 PM

I believe there are cases of chemical inbalances causing mental difficulties. I also believe there has been an extreme increase in MIS-diagnosis. This is very similar to the "boy-who-cried-wolf-syndrome."

When there are increased numbers of individuals diagnosed with such conditions, it tends to cause others to mistrust the diagnosis. I believe there is also a financial gain to be considered, as the pharmaceutical companies prosper, doctors prosper, medical facilities prosper, etc., all at the expense of the patient, who may or may not suffer from any conditions.

I also believe our society has turned into such a "fast-food" society that we expect to solve every problem quickly with as little time, expense, and effort as possible. Sometimes it's not just easily fixed with a pill, a shot, or a couple of visits to the shrink.

Prayer helps. Turning to the Lord helps. Seeking His Will helps. But as the saying goes, the Lord helps those who help themselves too. I am not against medical intervention, but I would say it would be something that for me would be a last resort. I would exhaust all other options before turning to medical professionals.

Wolfcounsel

12-30-2004, 07:08 PM

Just remember. Depression kills, but only one way. Snap out of it. Do physical exercise to work those built-up body chemicals out of your cells. Good luck.

Rink

12-30-2004, 10:59 PM

Exercise IS one of the best ways of staving off depression.

By exercising you naturally release the endorphins that help you be less depressed.

PrezLeefun

12-30-2004, 11:35 PM

i suffer from depression too. everyone but my psychologist is pressuring me to take meds for it. right now i am on a mood stablizer, topomax. it sux i know.
just last week i got out of a mental hospital for a short stay to think things over. i hated the thought of taking meds cuz i thought they may change who i was. i dont want to become a zombie. sometimes it is so bad you dont want to get up, or talk, the other day i couldn't watch TV cuz i was sooooo depressed.

it is very real and has a number of sources. for some it is chemical and for others like myself, the factors around me and my ability to cope with them has caused my depression. if you think the meds will help then take them. this is part of a song that helped saved me from suicide. I realized God would come to me if I just believed he was there.

"When you have no light to guide you and no one to walk beside you, I will come to you, I will come to you. When the night is dark and stormy you wont have to reach out for me, I will come to you, I will come to you."- Hanson

okkervil

12-31-2004, 12:11 AM

CzechPrince

12-31-2004, 12:13 AM

I am clinically diagnosed Bipolar, also known as manic depression. It's real easy for people to say snap out of it, especially when you are not the one dealing with it.

I have played soccer my whole life, in high school I played for my High school team and two travel teams, and have a large group of wonderful friends, and unfortunately that was not enough. It was good, and excersise does increase your seretonin levels, but sometimes that is not enough.

Okkrevil, so to answere your question, Yes, there is such a thing as clinical depression!!!! There are cases where people are given the wrong medications, and chances are that you will try a variety of them like I did to see which combination works the best. I know I need to take medication because my seretonin levels are low, as how it is with a lot of people that deal with some sort of depression. I can honestly help you with advice, tips, strategies, etc, so just PM me if you want to talk.

BTW is that Conor Oberst in your avatar? I listen to Bright Eyes and The Despaercidoes. :cool:

Wolfcounsel

12-31-2004, 12:29 AM

"It's real easy for people to say snap out of it, especially when you are not the one dealing with it." --CzechPrince

It's also easy to pop some popcorn without a lid on the pan.:whip:

Trance

12-31-2004, 12:39 AM

While I most certianly think there are people who have clinical depression, mental ailments, ect....I tend to believe the medical profession over-diagnoses many of those ailments, all in the name of selling the latest "cure-all" pill.

Rink

12-31-2004, 01:08 AM

Has ANYONE who suffers from depression ever note the depression mediicines are being found to cause suicides and more problems than they're worth taking?

Just bloody get out and excercise and work hard, eat right and take up a hobby, to hell with chemical anti-depressants!

CzechPrince

12-31-2004, 01:35 AM

"It's real easy for people to say snap out of it, especially when you are not the one dealing with it." --CzechPrince

It's also easy to pop some popcorn without a lid on the pan.:whip:I was not personally speaking to you. I am saying it is easy for people to say snap out of it, becasue that has been said to me before and quite frankly it's not that simple. I didn't realize you had used the same words earlier.

CzechPrince

12-31-2004, 01:40 AM

Has ANYONE who suffers from depression ever note the depression mediicines are being found to cause suicides and more problems than they're worth taking?
I was on Lexapro for a while, and noticed I was getting angrier about after a month. There are side effects, and Lexapro as well as some other ones are now being reviewed to see weather they are actually increasing problems or not. So for me, 1 instance, yes, but I am on several now that have helped me (With the help of Christ of course) put things back into perspective in my life.

Just bloody get out and excercise and work hard, eat right and take up a hobby, to hell with chemical anti-depressants!
Rink as I stated earlier I have played (and still do) soccer for basically my entire life, started out in Parks and Rec, moved up to Travel in 3rd Grade, High School team, and then another travel team at the same time as the other one--and I was still in bad shape. A lot of times it is not that simplistic. Some people don't need to be on them, but some people do, and you cannot just say to hell with them, what if everyone said that about every new medicine that came out for anything?

Wolfcounsel

12-31-2004, 01:58 AM

"I didn't realize you had used the same words earlier." --CzechPrince

Okay, I withdraw the peepee whacking. Exercise is still a good weapon against depression, but I am not sure about the bi-polar disorder type.

BEST45CAL

12-31-2004, 02:07 PM

Wolfcounsel

12-31-2004, 02:10 PM

"I'll bet your "doctor" didn't tell you about exercise." --BEST45CAL

All doctors will recommend exercise. Only quacks shut their mouths about it and prescribe pills as the best thing.

BEST45CAL

12-31-2004, 02:14 PM

It's real easy for people to say snap out of it, especially when you are not the one dealing with it.
Telling someone to "snap out of it" is usually the first suggestion that people generally offer since most of us don't have the training that psychiatrists have.

It's not meant to sound as if people don't care because some people do "snap out of it" after a while. For those who cannot, an alternate remedy is in order.

If people didn't care, they wouldn't say anything.

Rink

12-31-2004, 02:23 PM

Take it from one here who has always been prone on and off to depression, I feel better when I exercise or work hard than I do when i sit sedentary.

Took prozac untill it just up and quit on me, took zoloft which didnt do a thing for me (when my health was affected by that mold-hell apt place).

I finally said ENOUGH no more idiot pills, I can pull myself out of depression if I set my mind to it, its not easy but It can be DONE.

Thats the difference, you children have been taught to rely on the medical profession, and they in turn think 'O just pop a pill, you'll feel better' they dont care to do things the old fashioned way because......... they dont make money off of telling you to eat right and exercise, pushing pills onto their clients makes them money, and the pharmaceutical companies pander to the doctors paying them to push and promote their pills.

get the hell away from the medicines and exercise.

One thing I'll ask you, how was it our forefathers never sat all glum and depressed for?

I'll tell ya why, they worked hard most of their lives, they either worked hard or played hard, they were up, out and about ALL the time, they did not have the kind of sedentary lifestyle we have today!!!

THAT is why.

Take a page from the past and start exercising, playing hard and working hard and just plain Stay ACTIVE more often.

Believe me been there, done it I know.

SunnyBrook

12-31-2004, 02:35 PM

I have several family members who have struggled with various forms of mental illness. Due to some things I've personally seen, I would STRONGLY CAUTION you to use medication as a LAST RESORT. Try lifestyle changes, exercise, disciplined routines, herbal and vitamin supplements, prayer and meditation, counseling, stress-reduction techniques, consistent daily Scripture reading (Psalms is good), etc. Some people find that it helps to do volunteer work that focuses on helping others--this can keep you from some of the over-introspection and self-focus that at times leads to depression. Also, some illness such as hypothyroidism may cause depression. Many MDs overlook the obvious because it's quicker and more profitable to write a prescription for Prozac. If you find that you still need medication, then try to take the lowest dose possible, so that is easier to get off of it later. Never assume that the doctor knows best--he sees you for 15 minutes in a day filled with tens if not hundreds of other patients. The best "cures" take time and research to obtain, and most doctors and sadly short on time to spend on you and your problem. Get online and do the research. Look for medical forums where people discuss the pros and cons of their treatments.

Rightknight

12-31-2004, 02:35 PM

I myself SNAPED OUT OF IT years ago!----------------Just alter your view of the world and all of the BEAUTIFUL things in it. Realize your just one person among BILLIONS under GOD and you are here for a great purpose. Its a good thing your here on this forum that dident exist when I was depressed so stay posting stop the drugs and live your life helping others. I would ask what did all the multi BILLIONS of people do before these so called (WONDER DRUGS) existed?----They created wonderus things by channeling that emotion and tention into there tallents/gifts ect. Try it! It worked for THOUSANDS OF YEARS!

SunnyBrook

12-31-2004, 02:49 PM

One more thing, please consider that although you may technically be an adult, you are still undergoing massive hormonal surges and fluctuations during your late teens/early twenties. What you are experiencing may be simply normal swings due to physical changes and to adjustment to life's challenges as an adult. Part of the maturation process is in LEARNING TO COPE with life, learning your limitations, getting to know who you are apart from your parents, falling in love and developing deeper relationships with those around you... This is usually a tumultuous time which can send you looping dizzily along a roller coaster of emotions. Your emerging adult character is being shaped by your reactions to this "ride of your life." My opinion is that this is best achieved without the use of mind-altering medications; however, in some situations that isn't possible. For example, if you feel like you could potentially kill yourself or others, you should use any means necessary to prevent that from happening.

CzechPrince

12-31-2004, 04:22 PM

Throw those f***ing pills away and get to the gym. FAST!

Start working out. Save yourself!

Get your chemicals back in balance by exerting a little muscle power.

Ever hear of how some runners and other athletes experience a "high" after a few minutes of excercising?

Exercise is extremely theraputic. Great for the mind and body!

Sound body, sound mind.

I'll bet your "doctor" didn't tell you about exercise.

One thing is certain: You WILL turn into a zombie if you keep taking those damn pills.Am I typing Czech? It's not that simplistic folks. I played for 2 travel teams and my high school team at the same time for 4 years, and played soccer and kicked football before that, and it was not enough, I had to get medication to HELP work togethar with the excersice and other adjustments I made.

Rink

12-31-2004, 04:48 PM

I Love My Country!

12-31-2004, 05:59 PM

PrezLeefun

12-31-2004, 06:26 PM

i am sorry but the majority of people on this thread are missing the point about depression.

it is real, it is damaging, it can dibilitate, and does not let down easily by working out regularly.

Depression has a way of taking over a person, speaking for them, eating for them, and changing their outlook on life completely.

Being depressed is almost like being an alcoholic*(sp.) you need to really want to change to even begin to defeat the habit. And if you are able to start the change it is a long process before you can find peace.

As for medication, many people who take meds dont go to thearpy like they should. Meds are not uppers they are supposed give mild motivation. If a person wants to kill themselves and takes meds without thearpy they are at high risk to be more movitvated to kill themselves.

Incident_command

12-31-2004, 06:35 PM

Hey bud don't sell the gym short. It has proven to be my best relief after a hard shift. Playing sports isn't the same as a workout. If I have a bad shift I go to the gym before I come home and I seem to sort things out there much better than I would around my family.Best45 wolf, and ILMC are all right.

In most cases pills just eleviate the symptoms and the cause and problems remain. And pray. Try praying without ceaseing. Go through your day in prayer. Put Gods will first and all things will follow.No way would it be Gods will for you or anyone to be on any mood altering drug.

Large_Al

01-01-2005, 07:11 AM

ervil I'm not a Dr. Nor do I Play one on TV. But my suggestion is this, talk to your Dr. about your misgivings. If your Dr. says hey I think the meds are going to help, then if you trust him/her try them but be mindful of any side affects. As far as Diet/exercise goes that also could help and I would try that also. I know It doesn't help 100% of the time but
at least you know you are doing good for your body.

I do believe that Drugs are prescribed to often but in most cases they do help and are the correct thing to do.

But My warning to everyone if you are under Dr. supervision. Question everything because damn it, it's your life. You need to be an expert on any ailment you have. There are good Dr. and there are bad Dr. Just like car mechanics. If you find a good one stay with them until you think otherwise. But don't be afraid get a second opinion.

Ervil Stay strong and keep searching for the right answer and don't be a hater and you'll make out OK. Prayers to all who are suffering.

P.S. Ervil Your question is depression is really a result of misfiring synapses, or is it purely a spiritual problem?

My answer is it's something inside you that doesn't work correctly be it Misfiring synapses or Chem Imbalance or hanging out with a depressing group of people who hate everything and think everything is rotten. But don't sell short your treatment options. Spirituality is one of many holistic approaches to a problem that can and does work for many. Just ask people on this board or other boards and they will tell you how it helped them.

Warlady

01-01-2005, 08:30 AM

Zoloft takes many weeks to begin working. I'll just leave it at that.

okkervil

01-01-2005, 01:20 PM

Zoloft takes many weeks to begin working. I'll just leave it at that.
i take zoloft. i took about two weeks to begin working, and it works very well.

someone else in the thread said that these pills are "mood adjusters" which is just plain wrong. they raise the levels of seritonin(sp?) in your brain, so that you have the ability to raise your own mood. the pills don't change your mood; they help you to be able to elevate your own mood, which may have not previously been possible due to the chemical imbalance.

PrezLeefun

01-01-2005, 02:50 PM

a lot of the mood stablizers out there are actually anti-convulsants* (sp). Dr.s cross prescribe meds because studies show that they have a number of funtions.
I take topomax. it is really for epilepsi*(sp) a common anti depressant, Prozac was originaly for schizophrenia.

Incident_command

01-01-2005, 03:45 PM

someone else in the thread said that these pills are "mood adjusters" which is just plain wrong. they raise the levels of seritonin(sp?) in your brain, so that you have the ability to raise your own mood. the pills don't change your mood; they help you to be able to elevate your own mood, which may have not previously been possible due to the chemical imbalance.

I said in most not all casses. However, I find it interesting you key in on that line out of the whole post. The point was its a temporary effect and does not correct the problem perminently. Its main action is in fact altering moods by raising or lowering certain levels in the body. Call it what you want.

okkervil

01-01-2005, 04:24 PM

I said in most not all casses. However, I find it interesting you key in on that line out of the whole post. The point was its a temporary effect and does not correct the problem perminently. Its main action is in fact altering moods by raising or lowering certain levels in the body. Call it what you want.
actually, once one has been taking the medication for a certain amount of time, as low as 6 months in some cases, the levels in the body are permanently readjusted and enough seritonin is produced so that they can taper off of the medication. in some cases, the chemical imbalance is so severe that the person may have to take the pills for the rest of their life. excersize is useless in those cases.

i'm sure it is easy to tell people to snap out of it and excersize, but unless you have had severe depression, you do not know what you are talking about. trust me. i pick pills over death any day, and i would rather die than go back to the way i was feeling before. pills work, just like chemo works, just like medication for diabetics works.

Timberwolf

01-01-2005, 04:27 PM

The reason exercise is such a good remedy for depression is that, most times, depression is the body's reaction to toxicity in the body. Exercise cleanses the body...it also, as has been previously stated, causes the body to release endorphins, corticosteroids and other homones/chemicals which elevate the mood, alleviate stress (the REAL killer) and bring about neurological homostasis.

Only in the most extreme cases are meds to even be considered. Mind you CP, manic depression/bi-polar is rare and one usually needs meds to balance the chemical imbalance(s) in the brain, BUT...ah, yes, the infamous but...exercise does help keep the dosages lower than in those who don't exercise.

Just my 2¢...

Incident_command

01-01-2005, 05:04 PM

actually, once one has been taking the medication for a certain amount of time, as low as 6 months in some cases, the levels in the body are permanently readjusted and enough seritonin is produced so that they can taper off of the medication. in some cases, the chemical imbalance is so severe that the person may have to take the pills for the rest of their life. excersize is useless in those cases.

i'm sure it is easy to tell people to snap out of it and excersize, but unless you have had severe depression, you do not know what you are talking about. trust me. i pick pills over death any day, and i would rather die than go back to the way i was feeling before. pills work, just like chemo works, just like medication for diabetics works.

You seem intent on defending the pharmasutical way of handeling this. Thats fine but you came here with this subject asking advice so dont take offence to opposing views.
As for "S.S.R.I." Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors there are so many trains of thought still out on them it is far from a sure thing cure for a person with depression and the side effects and long term effects are still being found out.
The AMA found that 38% of people in a study for depression reported great results from a placebo in place of an SSRI.
Other studies from JAMA have shown no difference between placebos and SSRI's and or anti depressants. The thing is for sure thing is the pharmasuitical companies are doing their best to advertise and convince people they need these drugs when in fact they dont.
And one last thing, dont be so sure of who has had issues with depression and who hasn't.

freedumb

01-01-2005, 05:32 PM

okkervill,

Suck it up. Never cry again.

just kidding.

I'm not sure how old you are, but I went through quite the depressive spin between 17 'til around 21. I made a point of avoiding any medication.
Daily walks, silence, deep introspection... and eventually writing, drawing, long term goal setting, and that sort of thing did the trick. I just thought that I would grow out of it and that it was a pretty natural thing for people to go through when they are coming of age.

Some types of therapy tell you to do things that make you happy. Others help you to try and understand the relationships you have with all the people around you, and foster a sort of emotional intelligence.

The problem which I see with ssri type medication is they have the danger of creating dependency, and seem just like a way of avoiding or procrastinating on what the real problems are. Problems which can take years to resolve sometimes.

Obviously depression is real. Chemical imbalances in the brain may be the symptoms but I don't think that they are the causes. Getting a knife stabbed into your heart will cause all sorts of chemical reactions in the brain, but re-balancing the chemicals will not make the knife go away.

Good luck,

check this if you like.
http://www.prozacspotlight.org

"That all human beings are created different.That every human being has the right to be mentally free and independent."

okkervil

01-01-2005, 05:47 PM

Hmm. Well I take walks, I excersize, and I write like a madman, and i have been for the longest time. Perhaps I am one of those 'rare bi-polar cases'. I can't speak for everyone, but I truly believe that my medication is one of many treatments for my ailment.
I'm not trying to boost pharmacutical sales or something, that is just ridiculous. I never said medication is right for everyone. Sure everyone has their agenda in selling you medication. But if it is going to keep me from hurting myself and such, I believe that it is the best answer.

I'm not taking offense to anyones opinions either; I am just stating what I believe due to actual experience with it.

Incident_command

01-01-2005, 06:03 PM

Well I hope things work out for you.

okkervil

01-01-2005, 06:30 PM

Thanks.

Wolfcounsel

01-01-2005, 06:30 PM

Good luck, okkervil.

okkervil

01-01-2005, 06:30 PM

Thank you.

I Love My Country!

01-02-2005, 11:42 AM

Breaking news on Prozac.


January 1, 2005

A British medical journal said Friday it has given U.S. regulators confidential drug company documents suggesting a link between the popular antidepressant Prozac and a heightened risk of suicide attempts and violence.

The British Medical Journal reported in its Jan. 1 issue that documents it received from an anonymous source indicated that Prozac's manufacturer, Eli Lilly and Co., was aware in the 1980s that the drug could have potentially troubling side effects.

The journal said the documents, reportedly missing for a decade, had formed part of a 1994 lawsuit against Eli Lilly on behalf of victims of a workplace shooting in Louisville, Ky. Joseph Wesbecker, the gunman who killed eight people and himself in 1989, had been prescribed Prozac a month before the shootings.
The complete story (http://www.indystar.com/articles/8/206163-2378-223.html)

CzechPrince

01-03-2005, 01:02 PM

You use medications as a crutch, you dont even TRY to push yourself out of depression first before going to medicines as a last resort, because trying first for yourslef is 'too hard' for you to do.A crutch? Excuse me? That is without a doubt one of the most clueless, stupidist posts I have yet heard to date. You don't have the faintest idea of what you are talking about. Furthermore, do you know me, what I or anyone else on here has been through, tried, or struggled through? Kiss my :buttkiss: Rink.

CzechPrince

01-03-2005, 01:06 PM

I have to agree. I used to be severely depressed until I started working out, and picked up a hobby (fire arms: assault riffles, class 3 weapons and high powered sniper riffles). I also bought Arnold's "The New Encyclopedia of Modern Bodybuilding" book and studied it closely. I feel so much better about myself now. I'm healthy, I feel great, and I look great too. I could also snap a terrorist neck like a chicken bone if they ever tried to highjack the plane I was flying on. :) hehe But seriously, the best thing to do is work out and eat healthy and you'll come out of it... I did.

Once again, this simplistic idea of "Just work out and you will be fine" only remedy does not work for everyone. Worked for you? Well hot dog! The fact is millions suffer from depression and everyone's brain and chemical makeups are different, and different people need different combonations things.

Peachdiane

01-03-2005, 01:24 PM

Wow, I can see from this thread that very few have experienced real depression. My sister was bipolar (I say "was" because she's dead now). I watched her without meds and everyone was yelling at her to buck up. Hello! There was no way for her to buck up when she couldn't go out and exercise or stay busy. The meds helped her to do that. I have a brother on imipramine (I think thats the name) That, along with exercise, has been very helpful for him.

Yes, depression is very real and crippling. The body and brain work together in concert. The tiniest invisible thing can alter psychological disposition, the ability to ward off disease, and more. We have barely scratched the surface in terms of understanding and when we do, it will still take skill beyond the average person to apply the knowledge.

People will continue to yell "buck up" unless they are confronting somebody who has lost their arms and legs. IMO, for real depression, exercise, medication, and counseling are tools.

SunnyBrook

01-03-2005, 01:58 PM

CP: Please understand that most people posting on this thread are genuinely concerned for you and others facing mental illness. Their comments aren't rooted in ignorance, but rather in experience. I think most of us have either experienced depression/mental illness personally or are intimately acquainted with family members who have. I know that drugs end up being necessary for some, but I still feel that EVERY OTHER OPTION should be explored and that you should take the minimum dosages possible. I have family members who have struggled with lifelong mental illness. Finding solutions is a complicated process that is often oversimplified by pill-happy doctors who find it easiest to offer a feel good quick fix (even good docs can be guilty of this). I have seen family members who initially had positive results from meds, but after extended use, had problems with them that led to a downward spiral of diminishing returns, followed by detox, etc. This wasn't just one person--one drug, but several people--multiple meds. In the long run, sometimes the cure becomes just as bad or worse than the disease. I would add, however, that in your case (manic-depression), meds can definitely be the ticket to evening out the peaks and lows. Just be careful and listen to your body for signs of changes. It's possible that as you age, you will no longer need meds or will need different ones.

One more thing--meds can give you an artificial ability to cope which denies you the opportunity to learn how to face life's growing challenges as you mature, leaving you in a perpetual limbo of immaturity. If those meds then fail you, you can suddenly be confronted with the impact of the realities of life from which they were shielding you. For this reason, it is my OPINION that even if you find it necessary to take meds, you should take AS LITTLE AS POSSIBLE without endangering your life.

CzechPrince

01-03-2005, 02:25 PM

Peachdiane

01-03-2005, 03:04 PM

I did, and I commend you for your self awareness and taking care of yourself. My sis didn't like Lithium and listened to 'well meaning people' who told her to buck up and snap out of it. She stopped the drug against her doc's advice and I saw her go from from eight hours a night of sleep down to only two. Her thoughts were racing, and she was going a million miles an hour. She went from functioning just fine to becoming a patient in a psych unit. That's why I had to say something.

Incident_command

01-03-2005, 03:13 PM

Once again, this simplistic idea of "Just work out and you will be fine" only remedy does not work for everyone. Worked for you? Well hot dog! The fact is millions suffer from depression and everyone's brain and chemical makeups are different, and different people need different combonations things.

They were just suggestions from their own experiences bud. The subject was brought up and advise was requested. Nobody was attempting to offend you or Okker. Don't read people the riot act over this because I doubt there was any malice.

Rink

01-03-2005, 03:38 PM

A crutch? Excuse me? That is without a doubt one of the most clueless, stupidist posts I have yet heard to date. You don't have the faintest idea of what you are talking about. Furthermore, do you know me, what I or anyone else on here has been through, tried, or struggled through? Kiss my :buttkiss: Rink.Actually I do know what I am talking about, been there, and done it, now I dont touch the idiot drugs anymore.

O and FYI Prozac suddenly stopped working for me, period.

Zoloft never did work for me and I finally had enough of the pill popping crap.

Rink

01-03-2005, 03:44 PM

BTW My post wasnt soley aimed at CP it was not meant to 'offend' its just a fact that for some exercise and eating right does work, as it is I am not bipolar, just was depression-prone once.

I got better.

To each their own.

Anyone else wants to hammer me for my opinion?

I gave an opinion on DEPRESSION and exercise, not bipolar & meds.

Wolfcounsel

01-03-2005, 03:53 PM

"I gave an opinion on DEPRESSION and exercise, not bipolar & meds." --Rink

I understood what you meant. I still find it a common thing that people who fish for advice will probably not take yours, because they have already made up their minds as to what they will do. They just like to hear "opposing" views.

Kathy29

01-03-2005, 04:49 PM

There is depression where a person feels depressed and listless. Exercise is almost the miracle cure it raises the level of endorphins which acts directly on the brain producing the "high" people talk about. I've had it, and to tell the truth, it's really great! It's like flying almost.

There are things like keeping busy, not letting little things bother you and doing things to take your mind off things that might depress you.

Then there is clinical depression which is the chemical imbalance. No amount of exercise, keeping busy or anything else is going to help. No number of endorphins will be produced to correct that imbalance. Medication is the only way to go.

My partner had clinical depression. There was no real reason for him to be depressed so his mind looked for trivia to fasten on. Every two minutes he'd run over to my desk to complain about something I did, maybe I was breathing too loud. Every night I'd be at the office until 2 in the morning while he listed every tiny little thing I did wrong. It was actually everything that I did that he just said was wrong. He did the same thing with his daughter until she escaped to college 3 months early just to get away from him. He started taking Zoloft and is MUCH MUCH better. Since everything was wrong, and everyone around him was wrong no matter what they did, said, ate, drank or thought, I got like a zombie. I was literally afraid to leave my chair and go to the bathroom as long as he was around. Now, he's just like his old self.

I think the suicides and other abnormal behavior come from a too hasty diagnosis. It comes from prescribing medication for the depressed instead of the clinically depressed. The medication itself causes a chemical imbalance in the brain.

SunnyBrook

01-03-2005, 05:15 PM

CP:

Okkervil, who was the one requesting opinions on this thread, has been diagnosed with depression, a much more common diagnosis (and overdiagnosis) than your bipolar, that can often be effectively treated without meds or with short-term meds to get through a particular time period.

I repeat, in your case, meds may be your best option. I know people who are bipolar whom I urge to stay medicated. One of them will stay up all night long when she is manic. I know another who has been diagnosed by various shrinks with Manic Depression, Bi-Polar, Schizophrenia, Anxiety Disorder, Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, etc. and has tried every drug available. At one point, she was on 5-6 different meds at the same time. None of them were ever able to alleviate her symptoms, although they did add a whole bag of unwelcome side effects, which made her behave even worse.

I don't think anyone is saying here that meds are never the best option. Rather, we are saying from personal experience that meds are not always the right option. In fact, sometimes they become the worst option.

JUST USE CAUTION AND BE INFORMED! Be especially careful to study potential side effects of the meds you are taking so that you recognize symptoms if they occur. You might have great results for a couple of years, then suddenly begin having problems with the med. I have seen this have some dangerous results. Please don't trust the doc to catch the warning signs--they only see you a few minutes on an infrequent basis, and may miss something important. (Even the best docs occasionally blow it!) A family member of mine began taking meds that sent her into a terrible episode of lying down and crying and shaking head to foot for a solid week. When she called the doctor, she was told that this was unrelated to the new medication and that it wasn't a side effect of that medication. This person lives alone, but concerned family members went online and researched the med to find that this was a known and dangerous reaction that some people have to the drug, and that she should quit taking it immediately. As soon as she quit the med, the symptoms stopped and haven't returned. This doctor was a popular specialist in a major city, but she evidentally couldn't take the time to look up the side effects in one of the reference books that paperweight her bookshelves. The information was Googled in less than 5 minutes.

OK, CP, and others, Take Care!

PrezLeefun

01-04-2005, 01:49 PM

different people experience depression in different ways

and they handle it differently. I dont want to judge others, but if you haven't experienced depression within your own mind you will never fully understand it.

for Rink and Czech Prince if you dont to be judged stop judging eachother. you guys just dealt differently and have differnt opinions, so just leave it at that.

UnkHiram

01-04-2005, 06:08 PM

My Sweet Wife suffered from Clincal Depression for a couple of years while we were living in Dallas. The Doctors said it was due to a chemical imbalance in her brain and put her on mindaltering pills. The kept her from gettin to "Down" but turned her into a zombie. The funny thing is when we moved out of Dallas into the Country her depression went away. I know the pills didnt cure it because we were having some financial difficulties and her medications was one of the things we had to stop buying. The clean fresh air, more daily exercise and alot less stress turned her life around. I wont claim that this will work for everyone, but it worked for her.

PrezLeefun

01-04-2005, 07:59 PM

ya know all this talk about depression is making me depressed.:whine:
just joking:cool:

I Love My Country!

01-04-2005, 08:41 PM

Peachdiane

01-04-2005, 08:52 PM

I am hearing more and more that clinical depression, bi polar,,, any depression is not neccessarily something that has to be treated by "drugs". No matter what your type of depression is.. I would look into the naturopathic ways first before going on meds.

Well I agree. But wouldn't you agree it is dangerous to tell someone who is already under a doctor's care/meds to get off them and try naturopathic?

That makes me cringe because there was a time when I was postpartum and feeling really low. I decided to try St. Johns Wort on my own and it gave me panic attacks. I stopped it right away.

Diane,, i am so sorry to hear about your sister. IT is easy to say it's because she stopped taking her meds.. but you will now never know if maybe taking them was somehow a contribution in the long run.

Thank you and I honestly have no idea. She died from a brain aneurysm.

I try to watch my moods. There are times when one could plug a dustbuster in my ear and I'd clean the whole town. I think I'm on a pretty even keel, but who knows? I can never tell if my changes in moods are related to the fact that I'm doing a million things or if there's a chemical imbalance like my siblings. I just try to watch my diet, exercise everyday and drink plenty of water. I do know if I needed meds for depression I'd get a doc's advice. I guess I'm funny that way.

Incident_command

01-04-2005, 09:26 PM

Thats why I' dont like to post here and this will be my last post.

Here, when people ask for opinions you get flamed to hell after stating one. I was trying to be POSITIVE and give him/her support in a difficult time. I know damn well what it's like to be depressed. I lost a leg in the military (not in war) and didn't feel the need to keep on living. I always thought about suicide everyday, until I saw another amputee running with a prosthetic leg. If he would have had pants on I would have never known. I started out with running, then body building (using Arnold's book) and it change my outlook on life.

czechprince, you can kiss my ass. All I did was state an OPINION (the same as you) and you flamed me. You can state your experiance with depression and I can not? I'm done with this forum. Good bye and God Bless.

You did nothing wrong.
My brother also lost a leg, he lost his in a training fire, He was into power lifting before the accident and while he was going through this he stopped. He was circling the drain mentally and it looked bleak for him.
We started working out together and he got his life back together. He is a strength coach for a college football team. Working out brought him back and gave him a new career.
Anyway dont leave over that crap.

Bob_Arctor

01-05-2005, 12:03 AM

I was recently diagnosed by my therapist from Genesis Christian Counseling with having clinical depression and it was reccomended that I start taking zoloft. I've always been a little skeptical about depression pills, but I trust her so I decided to try it out.
However, when my father found out, he went into conniptions, and claimed that depression is not a chemical inbalance. He said that it doesn't say anywhere in the bible to take pills if you're feeling sad. I tried to explain that it also doesn't say in the bible to take chemo if you have cancer. I tried to explain that there is a chemical problem within the brain that causes depression, but he just said I need to pray more.
I went ahead and started on zoloft anyway, and it has made a difference.
My question is, do you think that depression is really a result of misfiring synapses, or is it purely a spiritual problem?. Hi

It sounds like your dad may be one of those lucky people who've never had to deal with depression, and does not realize the wide gap between the occasional "blues" most people get and the rarer but of course far more severe clinical depression. It is relatively easy to work your way out of mild depression through willpower alone as he suggests; this is useless for clinical depression which stems from prolonged neurotransmitter imbalance. This is a true medical problem that responds to medication just as other problems (pain, ulcers, allergies etc) will - consider the fact that if it were merely a "spiritual problem", antidepressants would be useless. That depression results from problems with brain chemistry hasn't been in dispute since the 1950s - the first antidepressants came out then. In short your father is mistaken - he probably does not realize that what you feel is in an entirely different category than bad feeling he has endured.

I'll provide a few abstracts. First, he's a bit from a book I have:

"Episodes of depression are characterized by dysphoria, or loss of interest or pleasure in all (or almost all) of a person's usual activities or pastimes. Accompanying this condition are feelings of intense sadness and despair; diminished energy; decreased sexual drive; mental slowing and loss of concentration; pessimism; feelings of helplessness, worthlessness, or self-reproach; inappropriate guilt; recurrent thoughts of death, suicide, and hoplessness; blunted affect; anorexia; fatigue; and insomnia. About 15 percent of persons suffering from depression die by suicide. Certainly, sadness is a normal human emotion in response to various life events. However, depression that has no known cause or unremitting depression that interferes with normal activity is pathological. Nearly 8 percent of the US population will develop a mood disorder at some time during their lives; nearly 5 percent of the population will develop major depression, orcurring twice as often in women as in men."

Julien, Robert M. A Primer of Drug Action, 8th edition. 1998. p 182.

"Depression is a disease resulting from biochemical changes in the brain. It is undertreated. Suveys...show that about 70% of depressed patients do NOT get treatment for their disease...The vast majority of people respond to the excellent treatments that we have available. About 85% can be treated successfully."

E. Richelson, "Treatment of Acute Depression," The Psychiatric Clinics of North America 16 (1993):462

Zoloft is an SSRI (serotonin-specific reuptake inhibitor).
"...there is a correlation between diminished serotonin neurotransmission (or receptor responsiveness) and episodes of major depression. This suggested that drugs potentiating serotonin neurotransmission by inhibiting its active presynaptic reuptake might be clinically useful in treating major depression."

Julian, pp 200-201.

If you're under 20 or so, the following applies to you:

<table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr><td>WMJ. 2004;103(6):20-2.</td> <td align="right"><script language="JavaScript1.2">-- var PopUpMenu2_LocalConfig_jsmenu3Config = [ ["ShowCloseIcon","yes"], ["Help","window.open('/entrez/query/static/popup.html','Links_Help','resizable=no,scrollbars= yes,toolbar=no,location=no,directories=no,status=n o,menubar=no,copyhistory=no,alwaysRaised=no,depend =no,width=400,height=500');"], ["TitleText"," Links "] ] //--> </script> <script language="JavaScript1.2"> *</script>
</td> </tr></tbody> </table>
Antidepressant medication usage in the pediatric population.

Chou C.

Untreated depression in the pediatric population is a serious health risk. Although there is a risk of increased suicidal thoughts and behavior with the use of antidepressants, most clinicians feel that no treatment at all leads to a worse outcome for our patients. It remains a clinical conundrum that the use of antidepressant medication in a depressed child has significant risks as well as documented benefits. The physician needs to independently verify the diagnosis of depression in a child (which might be made by a therapist), use informed consent with the parent or guardian and the patient as well, and provide careful monitoring of the treatment course for a number of weeks and months. One should be made aware of side effects of the medication, including increased agitation or impulsivity, as well as suicidal tendencies. We tell our patients that all medications have side effects as well as benefits, that none is completely benign. However, despite the potential problems, the treatment of depression does include the careful usage of medication.

Take the previous abstract and add in this one if part of your father's concern is over increased suicide risk:

<table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr><td>CNS Drugs. 2004;18(15):1119-32.</td> <td align="right"><script language="JavaScript1.2"> </script> <script language="JavaScript1.2"> *</script>
</td> </tr></tbody> </table>
Antidepressant treatment and risk of suicide attempt by adolescents with major depressive disorder: a propensity-adjusted retrospective cohort study.

Valuck RJ, Libby AM, Sills MR, Giese AA, Allen RR.

Department of Clinical Pharmacy, School of Pharmacy, University of Colorado, Denver, Colorado 80262, USA. robert.valuck@uchsc.edu

CONTEXT: The US FDA has issued an advisory warning of a possible link between antidepressant treatment for paediatric patients with major depressive disorder (MDD) and an increased risk of suicidal behaviour. A large database of paid health insurance claims for adolescents with MDD provided the opportunity to examine this possible relationship.OBJECTIVE: To examine the potential empirical link between antidepressant treatment and suicide attempts among adolescents aged 12-18 years using a community sample of managed care enrollees across the US.DESIGN: A retrospective longitudinal cohort using paid insurance claims for all healthcare and prescription fills for adolescents who were newly diagnosed with MDD and had at least 6 months of follow-up data. A multivariate Cox proportional hazards regression analysis was used to test the hypothesis that antidepressant use increased the risk of suicide attempt, adjusting for propensity for allocation to each treatment group and for demographic and clinical characteristics.SETTING: Managed care plans including both commercial and Medicaid plans in the east, midwest, south and western regions of the US from January 1997 to March 2003.PARTICIPANTS: All adolescent insurance members aged 12-18 years at first diagnosis of MDD.MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: Suicide attempts as indicated by medical utilisation with International Classification of Diseases (9th edition) [ICD-9] or 10th edition (ICD-10) codes in any healthcare setting or by any covered provider.RESULTS: 24 119 adolescents met inclusion criteria (63% female). Crude suicide attempt rates ranged from 0.0-2.3% by index treatment group. Treatment with SSRIs (hazard ratio) [HR] = 1.59; CI 0.89, 2.82), other antidepressants (HR = 1.03; CI 0.43, 2.44), or multiple antidepressants (HR = 1.43; CI 0.70, 2.89) after index MDD diagnosis resulted in no statistically increased risk of suicide attempt. Treatment with antidepressant medication for at least 180 days (6 months) reduced the likelihood of suicide attempt compared with antidepressant treatment for <55 days (8 weeks) [HR = 0.34; CI 0.21, 0.55]. Other variables that were independently associated with greater risk of suicide attempts included female gender, severity of illness indicators, younger age at time of MDD diagnosis, and living in the midwest or west. CONCLUSIONS: Antidepressant medication use had no statistically significant effect on the likelihood of suicide attempt in a large cohort of adolescents across the US after propensity adjustment for treatment allocation and controlling for other factors. The relationship between suicidal behaviour and antidepressant medication use is complex and requires further investigation.

I believe that a particular antidepressant - it may be Zoloft - is preferred for younger people as it has not shown the increased suicide risk associated with some of the others.

Exercise can often assist one in feeling better as well - it can substitute for medication for those with mild and moderate depression.

<table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr><td>Am J Prev Med. 2005 Jan;28(1):1-8.</td> <td align="right"><script language="JavaScript1.2">!-- var PopUpMenu2_LocalConfig_jsmenu3Config = [ ["ShowCloseIcon","yes"], ["Help","window.open('/entrez/query/static/popup.html','Links_Help','resizable=no,scrollbars= yes,toolbar=no,location=no,directories=no,status=n o,menubar=no,copyhistory=no,alwaysRaised=no,depend =no,width=400,height=500');"], ["TitleText"," Links "] ] //--> </script> <script language="JavaScript1.2"> *</script>
</td> </tr></tbody> </table>
Exercise treatment for depression Efficacy and dose response.

Dunn AL, Trivedi MH, Kampert JB, Clark CG, Chambliss HO.

Cooper Institute, Behavioral Science Research Center, Golden, Colorado.

BACKGROUND: This study, conducted between 1998 and 2001 and analyzed in 2002 and 2003, was designed to test (1) whether exercise is an efficacious treatment for mild to moderate major depressive disorder (MDD), and (2) the dose-response relation of exercise and reduction in depressive symptoms. DESIGN: The study was a randomized 2x2 factorial design, plus placebo control. SETTING/PARTICIPANTS: All exercise was performed in a supervised laboratory setting with adults (n =80) aged 20 to 45 years diagnosed with mild to moderate MDD. INTERVENTION: Participants were randomized to one of four aerobic exercise treatment groups that varied total energy expenditure (7.0 kcal/kg/week or 17.5 kcal/kg/week) and frequency (3 days/week or 5 days/week) or to exercise placebo control (3 days/week flexibility exercise). The 17.5-kcal/kg/week dose is consistent with public health recommendations for physical activity and was termed "public health dose" (PHD). The 7.0-kcal/kg/week dose was termed "low dose" (LD). MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: The primary outcome was the score on the 17-item Hamilton Rating Scale for Depression (HRSD(17)). RESULTS: The main effect of energy expenditure in reducing HRSD(17) scores at 12 weeks was significant. Adjusted mean HRSD(17) scores at 12 weeks were reduced 47% from baseline for PHD, compared with 30% for LD and 29% for control. There was no main effect of exercise frequency at 12 weeks. CONCLUSIONS: Aerobic exercise at a dose consistent with public health recommendations is an effective treatment for MDD of mild to moderate severity. A lower dose is comparable to placebo effect.

Don't feel guilty. Suffering from something like this is just the luck of the draw. It's not a personal failing. Major depression is just as legitimate a medical condition as is diabetes, high cholesterol or a broken leg. It is treatable, and if the power of positive thinking hasn't helped you, there is no reason to avoid medication. Perhaps you could get a second opinion from another psychiatrist to placate your father or have him do some research into the subject.

By the way is that a picture of Conor Oberst you have? Listening to him probably isn't doing you any favors either! :D

Good luck, and stay cool
Bob Arctor

Bob_Arctor

01-05-2005, 02:14 PM

I have heard st. johns wort really isn't that good for most folks.. There are other things out there i think... however not being that knowledgable i would have to seek out someone that is and then learn what side effects are possible before deciding on that route as well. Hi - I came across a few things and thought you might find them interesting...

<table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr><td>JAMA. 2001 Apr 18;285(15):1978-86.</td> <td align="right">[/url]
</td> </tr></tbody> </table>
Effectiveness of St John's wort in major depression: a randomized controlled trial.

Shelton RC, Keller MB, Gelenberg A, Dunner DL, Hirschfeld R, Thase ME, Russell J, Lydiard RB, Crits-Cristoph P, Gallop R, Todd L, Hellerstein D, Goodnick P, Keitner G, Stahl SM, Halbreich U.

Department of Psychiatry, Vanderbilt University, Nashville Tennessee, USA. richard.shelton@mcmail.vanderbilt.edu

CONTEXT: Extracts of St John's wort are widely used to treat depression. Although more than 2 dozen clinical trials have been conducted with St John's wort, most have significant flaws in design and do not enable meaningful interpretation. OBJECTIVE: To compare the efficacy and safety of a standardized extract of St John's wort with placebo in outpatients with major depression. DESIGN AND SETTING: Randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled clinical trial conducted between November 1998 and January 2000 in 11 academic medical centers in the United States. PARTICIPANTS: Two hundred adult outpatients (mean age, 42.4 years; 67.0% female; 85.9% white) diagnosed as having major depression and having a baseline Hamilton Rating Scale for Depression (HAM-D) score of at least 20. INTERVENTION: Participants completed a 1-week, single-blind run-in of placebo, then were randomly assigned to receive either St John's wort extract (n = 98; 900 mg/d for 4 weeks, increased to 1200 mg/d in the absence of an adequate response thereafter) or placebo (n = 102) for 8 weeks. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: The primary outcome measure was rate of change on the HAM-D over the treatment period. Secondary measures included the Beck Depression Inventory (BDI), Hamilton Rating Scale for Anxiety (HAM-A), the Global Assessment of Function (GAF) scale, and the Clinical Global Impression-Severity and -Improvement scales (CGI-S and CGI-I). RESULTS: The random coefficient analyses for the HAM-D, HAM-A, CGI-S, and CGI-I all showed significant effects for time but not for treatment or time-by-treatment interaction (for HAM-D scores, P<.001, P =.16, and P =.58, respectively). Analysis of covariance showed nonsignificant effects for BDI and GAF scores. The proportion of participants achieving an a priori definition of response did not differ between groups. The number reaching remission of illness was significantly higher with St John's wort than with placebo (P =.02), but the rates were very low in the full intention-to-treat analysis (14/98 [14.3%] vs 5/102 [4.9%], respectively). Headache was the only adverse St John's wort was safe and well tolerated. Headache was the only event that occurred with greater frequency with St John's wort than placebo (39/95 [41%] vs 25/100 [25%], respectively). CONCLUSION: In this study, St John's wort was not effective for treatment of major depression.

<table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr><td>J Clin Psychiatry. 2004 May;65(5):611-7.</td> <td align="right"> (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Display&dopt=pubmed_pubmed&from_uid=11308434)
</td> </tr></tbody> </table>
How effective is St John's wort? The evidence revisited.

Werneke U, Horn O, Taylor DM.

Centre for the Economics in Mental Health, Institute of Psychiatry, London, United Kingdom. Ursula.Werneke@elcmht.nhs.uk

BACKGROUND: St. John's wort (Hypericum perforatum) has been identified as an effective treatment for depression in controlled studies and subsequent meta-analyses. However, 3 recently published large studies failed to demonstrate robust efficacy. Updated meta-analysis and assessment of publication bias may help determine the true effect of St. John's wort. METHOD: Meta-analysis to reevaluate the effectiveness of St. John's wort as an antidepressant, funnel plot analysis, and meta-regression to assess the impact of publication bias, small-study effects, and variation in trial characteristics were performed. We conducted 2 analyses: a reproduction of a recent meta-analysis including 15 studies (Meta-15) and a meta-analysis extended by the 3 studies published since then (Meta-18). The studies in Meta-15 were identified through MEDLINE and EMBASE searches conducted in June 2000. The search terms used were St. John's wort, hypericum, hypericin, depression, and antidepressant, and no language restrictions were applied. For both meta-analyses, we compared funnel plots, Begg's rank correlation, Egger's regression, trim and fill method, and meta-regression. RESULTS: In both analyses, effect sizes in recent studies were smaller than those reported in earlier studies; the addition of more recent studies into the analyses resulted in reduced effect size. In Meta-15, St. John's wort was significantly more effective than placebo with a risk ratio (RR) of 1.97 (CI = 1.54 to 2.53). In Meta-18, the RR was reduced to 1.73 (CI = 1.40 to 2.14). On funnel plot analysis, the Meta-18 plot proved to be much more skewed than the Meta-15 plot. Meta-regression showed that increase in effect size was associated with smaller sample size only. The impact of baseline severity of depression could not be evaluated as the studies used different versions of the Hamilton Rating Scale for Depression. CONCLUSION: St. John's wort may be less effective in the treatment of depression than previously assumed and may finally be shown to be ineffective if future trials confirm this trend.

Basically, earlier studies that showed St John's Wort to be effective have tended to be relatively poorly designed, have smaller sample sizes, and overall be somewhat unreliable. More recent studies that have been better designed and have had larger experimental groups have shown less benefit from the drug. The abstract above describes the findings of combining and analyzing many studies together, and confirms the trend that as time goes on and studies become increasingly better designed the positive effects found become smaller.

While St John's Wort is "natural", it is still a drug (many drugs are "natural") and does have interactions and side effects as described below:

<table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr><td>Drug Saf. 2004;27(11):773-97.</td> <td align="right">[url="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Display&dopt=pubmed_pubmed&from_uid=15350151"]
</td> </tr></tbody> </table>
Drug interactions with St John's wort : mechanisms and clinical implications.

Mannel M.

Ad libitum Medical Services, Berlin, Germany. mannel@ad-libitum-medical.com

The purpose of this paper is to review preclinical and clinical evidence relating to drug interactions with preparations of the medicinal herb St John's wort (Hypericum perforatum). A systematic literature search was carried out in three electronic databases up to June 2004. Information about case reports classified as St John's wort drug interactions was retrieved from the WHO Collaborating Centre for International Drug Monitoring and from the UK Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency in June 2003. Against the background of proven efficacy in mild to moderate depressive disorders and an excellent tolerability profile in monotherapy, there is sufficient evidence from interaction studies and case reports to suggest that St John's wort may induce the cytochrome P450 (CYP) 3A4 enzyme system and the P-glycoprotein drug transporter in a clinically relevant manner, thereby reducing efficacy of co-medications. Drugs most prominently affected and contraindicated for concomitant use with St John's wort are metabolised via both CYP3A4 and P-glycoprotein pathways, including HIV protease inhibitors, HIV non-nucleoside reverse transcriptase inhibitors (only CYP3A4), the immunosuppressants ciclosporin and tacrolimus, and the antineoplastic agents irinotecan and imatinib mesylate. Efficacy of hormonal contraceptives may be impaired as reflected by case reports of irregular bleedings and unwanted pregnancies. Drugs with a narrow therapeutic index should be monitored more closely when St John's wort is added, discontinued or the dosage is changed. The St John's wort constituent hyperforin is probably responsible for CYP3A4 induction via activation of a nuclear steroid/pregnane and xenobiotic receptor (SXR/PXR) and hypericin may be assumed to be the P-glycoprotein inducing compound, although the available evidence is less convincing. Combinations of St John's wort with serotonergic agents and other antidepressants should be restricted to prescription-only, by experienced clinicians, due to potential central pharmacodynamic interactions. In conclusion, providing certain precautions and contraindications are followed, and adequate information is given to healthcare professionals and patients, the safe and effective use of quality-tested St John's wort products can be ensured.

The CYP system is responsible for drug metabolism - evidently hyperforin induces (speeds up) a certain CYP pathway, meaning that certain other drugs you may be taking that are also metabolized by that pathway may be cleared from the body more quickly. This is bad, for example, if one relies on birth-control pills or takes several categories of theraputic drugs.

Bob Arctor

BEST45CAL

01-05-2005, 08:32 PM

The CYP system is responsible for drug metabolism - evidently hyperforin induces (speeds up) a certain CYP pathway, meaning that certain other drugs you may be taking that are also metabolized by that pathway may be cleared from the body more quickly. This is bad, for example, if one relies on birth-control pills or takes several categories of theraputic drugs.Bob Arctor
Yeah, you better watch that St. John's wort if you're taking other drugs, especially some cancer meds.

Just as Bob says, what was once a normal dose of medication before you started taking St. John's wort, might not be enough to get the job done after you start taking it!

While St. John's wort is effective for some people, it doesn't work as well as Effexor, Paxil, Prozac, etc.

So check with your doctor. Don't self-medicate.

CzechPrince

01-06-2005, 12:36 AM

czechprince, you can kiss my ass. All I did was state an OPINION (the same as you) and you flamed me. You can state your experiance with depression and I can not? I'm done with this forum. Good bye and God Bless.
And you can kiss mine. Rink accused me of using medication as a crutch, since she said DIRECTLY after my post, "YOU use your medication as a crutch...." and you said, "I agree", right directly after her. (She has since stated she was not speaking personally to me, but whatever, it's not that big of a deal.)

I did not flame you the least bit, I get flamed on here all the time, get over it--I get flamed for being Catholic for pete's sake. But what you did say that the rest of the Medical world disagrees with is, "the best thing to do is work out and eat healthy and you'll come out of it... I did." As I said, it takes for some people what you said PLUS medication to make a fesible combonation to help on the path to recovery.

Rink

01-06-2005, 01:09 AM

And you can kiss mine. Rink accused me of using medication as a crutch, since she said DIRECTLY after my post, "YOU use your medication as a crutch...." and you said, "I agree", right directly after her. (She has since stated she was not speaking personally to me, but whatever, it's not that big of a deal.)

I did not flame you the least bit, I get flamed on here all the time, get over it--I get flamed for being Catholic for pete's sake. But what you did say that the rest of the Medical world disagrees with is, "the best thing to do is work out and eat healthy and you'll come out of it... I did." As I said, it takes for some people what you said PLUS medication to make a fesible combonation to help on the path to recovery.hey smarty this is EXACTLY what I STATED!

it is in Relation to DEPRESSION, not anything else!!

You use medications as a crutch, you dont even TRY to push yourself out of depression first before going to medicines as a last resort, because trying first for yourslef is 'too hard' for you to do.

Hence the heavy reliance on quickie pill-popping solutions to problems that can easily be remedied by other natural means.Read it VERY Carefully willya please before You go off on a tangent on me CP!

CzechPrince

01-06-2005, 11:02 AM

Bipolar involves depression. Manic Depression is another name for it and I take anti-depressants that help with my bi-polar.

Peachdiane

01-06-2005, 11:06 AM

Yup, bipolar=two poles. I wish more would read "Brilliant Madness." Terrific book!

Faithful_Servant

01-06-2005, 12:39 PM

Yup, bipolar=two poles. Wouldn't that make CP biczechar??:D

Sorry, just had to lighten this thread up a little.

I've seen both sides of the depression issue, treating it with meds and treating it through lifestyle changes. I've seen both work and both fail. Most of the people I've talked to about depression (mostly convicts) have said that one of the key things they did to help bring themselves out it was to find someone to help. I think sunnybrook brought this up earlier, but no one seemed to even think that it was worth discussing. Meds and excercise will both work for some people, but when you combine whichever one works for you with helping out other people, the results are incredible. Admittedly, this all anecdotal, but when you listen to guy serving 30 years for aggravated assault tell you that what really brought him out was when he started helping illiterate inmates learn to read, it makes an impact. Get out there and do something for someone else.
CP, you said that you play soccer.
Do you coach?
Do you volunteer to referee?
Do you help organize some local kids teams?

When you start taking the focus off of yourself and placing it on helping others, you will see a change in how you respond to your own problems.

jag

01-06-2005, 12:43 PM

Bipolar involves depression. Manic Depression is another name for it and I take anti-depressants that help with my bi-polar.
Always? My brother-in-law is bipolar and takes phycotic medication for schizophrenia, but is not diagnosed with depression.

CzechPrince

01-07-2005, 05:30 PM

. Get out there and do something for someone else.
CP, you said that you play soccer.
Do you coach?
Do you volunteer to referee?
Do you help organize some local kids teams?

When you start taking the focus off of yourself and placing it on helping others, you will see a change in how you respond to your own problems.
As much as I can as a full time student. Last week Christmas Day my mom and I went to the homeless shelter and helped out down there for a while. Last summer I went to Mexico and did Mission work and I had a great time.

CzechPrince

01-07-2005, 05:31 PM

Always? My brother-in-law is bipolar and takes phycotic medication for schizophrenia, but is not diagnosed with depression.
Schizophrenia is different than Bipolar....are you sure he is diagnosed bipolar as well? Sometimes also medication can help different things, more than one problem. I know one of mine helps for my depression/bipolar and my anxiety problems.

PrezLeefun

01-07-2005, 05:58 PM

ya know meds like prozac are meant for scizophrenia sooooooooooooo....they can be used for number of things. I take topomax its an anti convulsant but they use it as a mood stabilizer for me.

Faithful_Servant

01-10-2005, 01:06 PM

As much as I can as a full time student. Last week Christmas Day my mom and I went to the homeless shelter and helped out down there for a while. Last summer I went to Mexico and did Mission work and I had a great time.
Being a full time student can be more than a full time job, but try to find time on a regular basis to help someone. The feeling you get from seeing someone succeed because you helped them out is incredible. When I hear stories from people that I helped lead to the Lord of how they led someone else to Him, just make my week (and sometimes my month). Find a couple of kids who are complete duds on the soccer field and spend an hour a week with them. Just this level of commitment from you will show them that they are worth something and the payback for you will be great when you see them actually get better because of what you did.

CzechPrince

01-10-2005, 08:16 PM

I defenintly saw the difference I made in everything while in Mexico, from the work we did to the people and kids I met and interacted with for that entire week.

Faithful_Servant

01-11-2005, 10:18 AM

So the next step is to find a way to carry that with you on a regular basis.
As Christians, the highest praise that we can receive is "Well done, good and faithful servant." (Hmmm??? Where have I seen that recently??) Find a way to serve, it does wonders.

PrezLeefun

01-12-2005, 06:06 AM