What Would You Do?

[HomeschoolrsRUs]

Okay, we all seem to be in pretty much of an agreement that the current government school system stinks. My question is, if YOU were elected and COULD change things (disregard fillibusters and opposition), what would be your "Top Five List" of things you would want to implement, accomplish, or have done to improve the Education System?

I'll start, here's mine.

5. Re-institute REAL pass/fail standards.
4. Eliminate cultural diversity "programs" -- only fundamentals offered (reading, writing, arithmetic, science, history and LEGITIMATE electives)
3. Make teacher's unions illegal.
2. Allow tax-payers to either 1) keep their tax dollars for education or 2) designate their tax dollars to a particular option (specialized private school, homeschooling, alternate schooling-internships, apprenticeships, etc.)
1. Gradually implement a privatization program.

[Wolfcounsel]

1. Eliminate the Department of Education.

2. Give Principals the power to expel as*holes permanently.

3. Bring back whacks on the butts, up to Freshman in High School.

4. Eliminate bullsh*t touchy-feely Kumbaya "can we all get along" programs
and get back to the 3 r's.

5. Eliminate child day care centers set up for the bimbette students with
children.

[DesertFox]

1. Abolish the Dept of Ed. and get fedgovt out of it altogether.

2. Put education at the state level.

3. Enact a law putting education outside the purview of the courts, thereby keeping it forever in the political realm.

[TheBeast]

Privatisation has been pretty much a cop out over here - have a look at our rail networks if you don't believe me.

I think the church-state separation should be addressed. Rather than the total abolition of religion in public buildings, religion should be taught philosophically, viz. in an unbiased manner without preaching from the theistic or atheistic viewpoint.

For example - teaching morals may inc. the 10 Commandments, but with balanced critiques and alongside other moral systems whilst leaving it up to the student to decide which system is more plausible.

Religious posters etc to be treated as other personal items - place them in the relevant department. If a Periodic table is found in the school's main corridor then why not have a religious image or symbol? Likewise, if the Periodic table is confined to the science department, then confine religious paraphernalia to the department(s) of religion.

Replace RS with philosophy, but have RS incorporated into philosophy as 'theology and philosophy of religion'

Raise taxes for the social elite while lowering taxes for the poor(er) masses.

Set up a national health service, while providing more funds for education and health-care, aiming to divert the funds from shareholder plans.

[PrezLeefun]

1. completely reconstruct the Dept of Ed.

2. Weed out all the damn thieves in the school system

3. Make discipline a priority.

4. Make sure that federal funding goes into the schools....all schools: directly.

5. Did i mention reconstructing the Dept of Ed?

[HomeschoolrsRUs]

1. completely reconstruct the Dept of Ed.

2. Weed out all the damn thieves in the school system

3. Make discipline a priority.

4. Make sure that federal funding goes into the schools....all schools: directly.

5. Did i mention reconstructing the Dept of Ed?


Uuuuhhmmm, Prez, didn't you mean DE-construct the Department of Education??? LOL

[PrezLeefun]

no i didn't Homes, nice try though ;)

[Peachdiane]

Well I think it shouldn't be just the principals. We need to empower the teachers to dismiss the disruptive elements in the classroom. I'm not just talking about the violent ones. I'm also referring to the ones that outright tell the teacher that they will not do the work and nothing you do will make them do the work. Years ago teachers could send the disruptive kids home, then over the years, they lost that power. They need that power to educate the kids that truly want to be there and learn.

[UnkHiram]

1 Eliminate the Dept of Education (It aint in the Constitution)

2 Eliminate all classes that dont teach

3 Eliminate all teachers that are no longer capable of teaching

4 Bring back the principals ability to permanently suspend kids that dont obey the rules

5 Fire the Adminstration of any school that fails to meet minimum standards

[Teenager]

(1) Get the ACLU outta the schools.

(2) Kill the Department of Education.

(3) Destroy the topics unrelated to the four fundalmentals(math, science, history, English), such as sex-ed, death-ed, etc.

(4) Abolish the goverments control over the school system.

(5) Bring back capital punishment in schools.

That's what I'd do. I think most of agree on at least one thing, though- do something to the Dept. of Ed.

[UnkHiram]

(5) Bring back capital punishment in schools.



Teenager

I sincerly hope you meant "Corporal" Punishment not "Capital" Punishment

[HomeschoolrsRUs]

Teenager

I sincerly hope you meant "Corporal" Punishment not "Capital" Punishment

http://www.freeconservatives.com/vb/images/icons/biglaugh.gif


Sorry Teenager, but that WAS funny, :smirky: , you gotta admit.

[Longhorn_Platinum]

:idea: 1. Stop social promotion.

:idea: 2. Stop social promotion.

:idea: 3. Stop social promotion.

:idea: 4. Stop social promotion.

:idea: 5. Stop social promotion.

[UnkHiram]

Maxy Moo

I get the feeling you dont like social promotions.

[HomeschoolrsRUs]

Yes, no more school socials, they don't need no more stinkin socialization!

:smirky:

Okay, yeah, I DO have a weird sense of humor, LOL

[Longhorn_Platinum]

3. Enact a law putting education outside the purview of the courts, thereby keeping it forever in the political realm.

:nonono2: Now, Foxy, you know the judges will strike that one down.

[S-T]

1. Eliminate the Department of Education and all federal involvement in education.

2. Prohibit vouchers (http://www.freeconservatives.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21687).

3. Allow people with school-age children to take a deduction on their school taxes if they choose to opt out of the government school system. (King ST would also abolish the property tax.)

4. Fire any school employee who takes a "kids will be kids" attitude to bullying. Permanently ban such employees from ever working in the government schools. Impose mandatory prison sentances for any school employee who looks the other way or tries to cover up egregious violence.

5. Get rid of all this touchy-feely social engineering and focus only on academics. Impose strict academic standards. End social promotion.

[Longhorn_Platinum]

4 Bring back the principals ability to permanently suspend kids that dont obey the rules

:unsmile: Along with that, you're going to have to abolish bureaucratic rules that penalize schools for having too many dropouts.

:unsmile: And we need to stop putting pressure on teachers to "pass" kids.

:um:

:unsmile: Oh, but I already said, "Stop social promotion".

[TheBeast]

1. Ablosh human rights

2. Suspend all progress made on social psychology

3. Scrap sociological progresss

4. Replace all subjects with the 3 rs

5. Emphasize the importance of religious doctrine (love thy neighbour and sanctity of life) whilst reintroducing captial punishment and a despotic regime.


YAYYYYYYY!!!!

[PrezLeefun]

How about we just give Beast an education? Maybe that will make all the difference.

[CzechPrince]

1. End government ownership, operation, regulation, and subsidy of schools and colleges. End compulsory education laws.

2. Tax credits for tuition and other expenditures related to an individual's education. Tax credits for child care and eliminate the nationalization of the child-care industry.

3. Get rid of denying of tax-exempt status to schools because of those schools' private policies on hiring, admissions and student deportment.

4. Repeal of all taxes on the income or property of private schools, whether profit or non-profit and taxes on the income or property of private schools.

5. School Vouchers

[PrezLeefun]

I'm sorry but the government needs to be involved to some extent. If they are not I dont eat.

[Teenager]

Teenager

I sincerly hope you meant "Corporal" Punishment not "Capital" Punishment

Oh My Gosh!!! I said "capital"? :blush:

<font size=1>Ooooooops</font>

[Lazarus]

...5. Re-institute REAL pass/fail standards.
4. Eliminate cultural diversity "programs" -- only fundamentals offered (reading, writing, arithmetic, science, history and LEGITIMATE electives)
3. Make teacher's unions illegal.
2. Allow tax-payers to either 1) keep their tax dollars for education or 2) designate their tax dollars to a particular option (specialized private school, homeschooling, alternate schooling-internships, apprenticeships, etc.)
1. Gradually implement a privatization program.I dont think I could add to that list... Maybe with the addition of Wolfy's list, that should clear up our problems and start to produce viable young citizens again...

[TheBeast]

How about we just give Beast an education? Maybe that will make all the difference.

University not good enough for you, sonny boy juvenile not even old enough to drink Jimmy lad me fella?

[ponch21]

Although Henry David Thoreau states in his essay Civil Disobedience that those who are part of an institution are the least qualified to talk about its reform, here goes:

1. Eliminate the fear of disciplining in the classroom - from parents, from admin, from community, from the state - I like what Longhorn said about there not being penalties for expulsion or suspension - kids are tied to dollars - when you kick a kid out, you kick money out the door - most schools can't afford to do that - so we keep giving kids 2nd, 3rd... 13th chances.

2. Stricter licensing that requires teachers to be experts in whatever subject they are teaching - not experts in teaching methods.

3. More money spent on reducing class sizes - no class should be larger than 25 anywhere.

4. At the elementary level all that should be taught is reading, writing and math. Let the upper levels worry about social studies, science, art, etc.

5. Restructure the union to protect good teachers and allow for bad teachers to be canned. A few bad apples spoils the reputation of the majority of us. I am not sure why we stand so tightly when a bad one gets called to the carpet. WE should be the ones calling for their removal - not parents or admin.

Just a few thoughts from someone in education.

Minnesota education.

[Longhorn_Platinum]

- kids are tied to dollars - when you kick a kid out, you kick money out the door - most schools can't afford to do that - so we keep giving kids 2nd, 3rd... 13th chances.

:unsmile: This is a common fallacy that hurts our "schools". I recall my days in Port Arthur, where we were told to encourage "students" to stay in school, since we needed the ADA (average daily attendance) money. This seemed to be the basis for retaining even the most extreme cases. Yet, the administration overlooked how much these "students" were costing the district. Consider the following points:

* Nearly all of the disruptive students, who could have been expelled at one point or another, were guilty of vandalism or graffiti. Lost textbooks, broken windows, broken pencil sharpeners, consistent trashing of boys rooms, &c. Nonproductive "students" could easily do more damage than the $14 we were receiving from the state for keeping them in school that day.

* If a student showed up to school to disrupt, but skipped 2nd period, we got no compensation for his attendance, since that's the period when attendance is taken for ADA purposes.

* Keeping the nonproducers in school requires the district to hire more teachers than are really needed. I reälize that I'm shooting myself in the foot for now, since I'm looking for work, but for the good of the school system, it would be better if the district unloaded the losers, then they could afford fewer teachers. In fact, with fewer discipline problems, they could even make class sizes a little larger, requiring even fewer teachers, still.

* Nonproductive "students" often require removal from class, & placement in an alternative setting. This means the district must operate an alternative facility, complete with another faculty that must be paid, as well as utilities & routine maintenance for the alternative center.

* In addition, an employee must be hired to monitor the "in-school suspension" unit.

* Extra money must be spent for hall monitors, security guards, & police presence, to maintain safety for the productive students.

:unsmile: As if this weren't enough, Port Arthur Jefferson suffered one final indignity. Most of the schools in our areä were in class 4A, & stepping down from 5A would have reduced our athletic budget, since road trips would have been shorter. After the numbers were reported, TJ had ten students too many to make the shift. Just ten fewer fourth-, fifth-, or sixth-year freshmen would have meant playing against areä schools, instead of travelling to Baytown or Houston.

:unsmile: Are we really saving money by keeping kids in school? We might want to reëvaluate that.

[UnkHiram]

University not good enough for you, sonny boy juvenile not even old enough to drink Jimmy lad me fella?

Ok Beast so you are an idiot with a degree. Sorry that dont impress me, and judging by your posts you suffer from a severe case of Cranial/Anal Inversion.

[ConservativeYouthMovement]

Originally Posted by TheBeast
University not good enough for you, sonny boy juvenile not even old enough to drink Jimmy lad me fella?


Sorry to ruin your homo-predator fantasies Beast, but Prez isnt a sonny boy.
Also, whatever degree you have pond scum must be able to get because the level of your degredation has reached sub pond scum levels.

1. States need to mandate schools with no federal involvement.

2. Race needs to be removed as a factor for the quality of a school. IE my school is ~25% indian, but the indian test scores count for more than the white test scores. (BTW I am a junior and I only know 1 indian in my grade. Freshman year it was close to half.)

3. People should not be able to remain in the same grade for 6 years in a row.

4. Special ed kids should not be allowed to be in special classes. They get the same diploma for spending 13 years in 1st grade.

5. Illegalize teacher unions (It is illegal to go on strike as a teacher, fire fighter, police officer etcetera in South Dakota already.)

6. No more specialized counselors for race. Indians at my school get their own counselor-- This is biggotry.

7. Totally remove affirmitive action.

8. Totally remove federal free lunches. If I dont get free lunch because my parents make more money, than you shouldnt either. Pack a lunch with the food you bled off of tax payers with your food stamps. You eat better than I get to anyway.

9. Allow privatized school lunch system, privatized janitorial systems, computer technicians etcetera to take over the maintenance and operations of the schools non educational branches. In the long run privatized efficiency will blow the current garbage out of the water.

10. Make students buy books. Sell used books like in colleges for those with less money. Also, people with multiple kids will probably get to use the same books.

11. Make both students and teacher accountable for failure. Teachers with a majority of students who dislike them and do not atleast pass 70% of students should be automatically removed.

12. Graded standardized test assessments that take less than 6 hours to complete. The current system uses 6 hour long tests that have absolutly no standing on your grades. Needless to say, most people either screw around or just plain out leave (I refused to finish the last 5 and a half hours of it.)

13. Base education more on learning than on simple attendance. Some schools require you to be there all day, and thusly the students schedules consist of things like 'sex ed' and 'we keep you here because we think every single one of you is a criminal'. This is a rediculous waste of money. Keeping students around for stupid classes is ok for elementary schoolers, but the way I see it is I'd rather be at home or at work.

14. Grading scales should be consistant. My school uses this grading scale that I feel is fair (in percent):

93-100 A
85-92 B
77-84 C
70-76 D
0-69 F

Whereas some schools use the much easier (and I dont mean in terms of remembering it):
90-100 A
80-89 B
70-79 C
60-69 D
0-60 F

There is a quite a difference in what is passing or acceptable at that school than at mine. At that school I could go in, make everything up and pass. You can pass barely knowing half of what you should in that class.

15. Grading should be based on testing and not on daily work. Long term projects and papers should make up 25% of the class work, and tests 75%

Reason is because if 85% of the work is just showing up and then copying your neighbors assignment then 85% of your grade is not based on knowledge. Furthermore, it holds teachers accountable for actual knowledge if atleast some of the tests are standardized.

I think I have said more than my share. ( I think that is my longest post yet!)

[Longhorn_Platinum]

11. Make both students and teacher accountable for failure. Teachers with a majority of students who dislike them and do not atleast pass 70% of students should be automatically removed.

http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/appearingsoon/website/img104.gif WRONG.

:flame: My teaching should not be a popularity contest, nor should I be held to a quota. Give me one good reason why I should be held accountable for the jerks who refuse to do a reasonable homework assignment, or refuse to study for a test, or can't show up to class on time, or who skip class, or are too lazy to bring their books & supplies to class. STUDENTS should be held accountable for their own lack of effort. Teachers should only be accountable for making certain their lesson plans are ready to go when the bell rings, & keeping the pace of the class moving. (Although, I will concede that teachers should be reasonable in the level of difficulty of instruction.) If your #11 is implemented, teachers will be vulnerable to student threats, & the students will be running the schools.

[Longhorn_Platinum]

12. Graded standardized test assessments that take less than 6 hours to complete. The current system uses 6 hour long tests that have absolutly no standing on your grades.

:unsmile: The tests should have a standing on your grades. Principals shouldn't have to make undignified bets with the student body, such as spending an entire school day on the roof wearing a clown suit, to motivate students to take a test that determines the school's accountability, but has no personal impact on the students.

14. Grading scales should be consistant.

:unsmile: In Texas, they are, by law. But, unfortunately, teachers can still curve grades out the wazoo, while others hold a strict standard in their classes, so in spite of the law, there's still not as much consistency as there should be.

15. Grading should be based on testing and not on daily work. Long term projects and papers should make up 25% of the class work, and tests 75%

Reason is because if 85% of the work is just showing up and then copying your neighbors assignment then 85% of your grade is not based on knowledge.

:unsmile: I teach math, & the reälity is, if I told my students that they would get no grade for the daily work, they'd never do it. Then, they'd fail their tests. I mean, totally bomb them. I have to count the daily work, but it's usually 50% of the grade. That per cent should decrease, as the students get closer to graduation, or in more advanced courses, because certainly, they won't get any credit for homework in college. They just won't pass the tests, if they think themselves above homework.

:unsmile: As for students copying, the students are to blame for that. There's only so much a teacher can do to stop it. Students should be taught integrity at an early age, & if that fails, then the student is doomed to fall behind, if (s)he can't learn to be honest.

:unsmile: Just one example, out of many I've seen. "JC" was a student in a Geometry class. His classmates told me he was a copiër, but he was slick, & I never caught him in the act until April 11. In the meantime, he couldn't pass a test, since I give my students different tests, & he had nobody to copy off of. Even some of my assignments are multi-version, & he couldn't cheat on those, either. From tutoring him after school, I got the feeling he'd been cheating since elementary school, & none of his teachers ever caught him, before. It finally caught up to him in my class. His math skills were so weak, & with nobody to cheat off of, he ran into a dead end. I'd be surprised if he ever passed the TAKS.

:unsmile: This is another reason why students, not teachers, should be held accountable for their learning.

[Jim Sentry]

Some positive comments as well as some silly ones.

But, not one that holds a parent accountable for any aspect of a child's education.

Why?

[HomeschoolrsRUs]

But, not one that holds a parent accountable for any aspect of a child's education.

Why?

How would you implement that? The only way to MAKE the parent accountable, would be to take the whole system out of the hands of the federal government and put it into the hands of parents (which, by the way, I am COMPLETELY for.)

This issue is a round-robin of problems -- most all bureaucratic nonsense.

I want to know, when did education go from being about reading, writing, and arithmetic, to sex ed, multi-cultural studies, and ridiculous "credit" systems. WHY does a student have to have 2 years of a foreign language, 7 elective credits, etc.?

The elementary years up through about 7th grade should be about basic academics. After that, "high school" as we know it should be done away with. The system should be privatized to allow for education specialization -- apprenticeships for students gifted in vocational areas, technical areas, and areas of higher academics (math, english, science, etc.) We need to be helping kids find 1) what they are good at, 2) what motivates them to succeed, and giving them the skills to develop both.

The government "business" of education has expanded to glorified baby-sitting services -- a place to put the kids while Mommy & Daddy make a living and live their lives, until such time they can show off their trophy-kids for whatever achievement they MIGHT take glory in, or accept condolences for (in the case of miscreants).

The system ain't just broke, it's beyond that now.

[Jim Sentry]

I don't know how since I am not a parent. But I do remember when I was a kid and did not do my homework after school or received failing grades or was kept over for detention I was disciplined by my parents. It took the form of no TV, or no going out to play, or doing extra chores.

Maybe in today's world parents are too busy making a living or too wrapped up in their own lives to devote the time necessary to raise their kids properly. To which I say they should'nt be having kids in the first place.

[HomeschoolrsRUs]

I don't know how since I am not a parent. But I do remember when I was a kid and did not do my homework after school or received failing grades or was kept over for detention I was disciplined by my parents. It took the form of no TV, or no going out to play, or doing extra chores.

Maybe in today's world parents are too busy making a living or too wrapped up in their own lives to devote the time necessary to raise their kids properly. To which I say they should'nt be having kids in the first place.

Well Jim,
You have certainly hit upon one of the deep-seeded problems of modern American education. Parental apathy and unenvolvment. Today, children aren't considered a "gift of God." They are not viewed as a privilege and responsibility. Kids are born out of wedlock, unwanted, uncared for, and unnecessary. Parents want "TV Dinner" children -- pop them into the nuker and Presto! grown kids they can claim, point to, or criticize.

Consider how little time they spend with them. I have a friend who is my age, 41. Last year, she gave birth for the first time (she was told she would never have children because of medical reasons). She had to go back to work when the baby was merely three weeks old. She works from 7:30am to 5-5:30pm ever working day. Who do you suppose her baby bonded too the quickest -- the sitter or the mom?

I have other friends whose children are in government school -- when their kids get out of school 'round 2pm, do their parents pick them up and take them home to spend quality time together? Nope. They stay in "after-school care" until the very last minute they are allowed -- usually 6pm. Then the kiddos have "whatever" practice to go to (soccer, piano, clubs, etc.). How much time do you suppose the parents spend with the children?

The school system now provides free breakfast, free lunch, minimal-cost child-care, AND has begun to dictate morals (they are taught sex ed including the promotion of such topics as homosexuality and abortion, multi-cultural diversity, eco-whacko-ism, and even have a leftist political philosophy shoved down their throats).

Where could parents involve themselves? Why should they? They don't care, everything is being taken care of FOR them. How DARE they complain -- I mean, really, they were JUST the biological introduction receptacles for goodness sake . . . what do they think they are, PARENTS?

End of Rant.

[ponch21]

Homes, what exactly is eco-whacko-ism?

[HomeschoolrsRUs]

Homes, what exactly is eco-whacko-ism?

I am NOT anti-environment, anti-animal, or anti-conservation, but there are limits, and none of those things should be raised to a level of significant importance within the school systems. Textbooks are worded with "eco-friendly" terminology, teachers give assignments based on "trumped up" holidays such as "Earth Day," etc. Allowig PETA, or other environmentalist whacko organizations to promote their agendas to the school children through "donated" materials such as pamphlets with little "education" activities included, etc.

I have no problem if a school club wants to ban together to clean up the wooded area behind the school. If a teacher allows a child to do a report on recycling in their neighborhood. I have no problem with a history assignment researching logging practices. But NONE of those things should be done with a skewed eye to what is "right" in the eyes of the teacher -- forcing kids to participate in a neighborhood clean-up project, assigning a report on the dangers of Republican laws eliminating some clean-air standards (regardless that they might have been repealed because they weren't necessary, or weren't applicable), or forcing children to watch a movie about the "torture" of circus animals or animals at the zoo.

That's the kind of stuff I'm talking about.

[ConservativeYouthMovement]

12. Graded standardized test assessments that take less than 6 hours to complete. The current system uses 6 hour long tests that have absolutly no standing on your grades.

I meant graded as opposed to not graded as it is currently. At my school, I was told most state tests were failed because people refused to do them or refused to do well on them, me included. Thusly the tests are pointless.

11. Make both students and teacher accountable for failure. Teachers with a majority of students who dislike them and do not atleast pass 70% of students should be automatically removed.

I said students AND teachers, I see the class room as a team. The teacher is the team leader, but cooperation is required for it to work succesfully. Some teachers DO NOT by any means even TRY to teach. Teaching means a majority of people understand what is going on, and to me a majority is 70%. If students are required to know 70% of the material in a course to pass it, then a teacher should atleast be able to pass 70% of the students.

If the grades are based mostly on tests, that is a standard. Students who dont take the test wouldnt be counted (people caught cheating included.)

I agree completly that the students need to do their part too, but could you honestly say you are doing a good job if you correct a test and more than a third of your class fails? What about 100% of the class fails? (Yes this has happened in my class before, only with one particular teacher who consistently fails to teach ANYONE.)

Im really not saying for it to be a popularity contest, but driving someone to excel and bullying them are two entirely different things. There are teachers who like their students to hate them. Not because of the work that they assign, but because of their harassment and constant targetting of particular students. People are people and teachers are no different. If a manager at a workplace was generall disliked, made employees feel stupid and for no particular reason than personal feelings targeted them, a responsible employer would do something about it and so should schools.

[UnkHiram]

Jim Sentry

I admit it, I didn't think of mentioning making the parent responsible for the kids education. mea Culpa, My mistake. Of course their are extenuating circumstances (Gee, i sould like a liberal), I believe that parental responsiblity goes beyond this one issue and we should be able to take it for granted. Let me give you an example:

I have two kids, my wife and I have been married for durn near 19 years now. We raised our kids. We taught them to have manners, to say Yes Sir and No Maam. We taught them that their "Job" while they were kids was to get as good an education as possible. A Lousy teacher was not an acceptable excuse because their were other research materials available and we were both always willing to answer questions. We have stressed to our children that the decisions that make bear consquences both good and bad. As a result, My oldest is graduating as Valavictorian this year and then heading for Texas A&M to study Aerospace Engineering (Proud Bragging Dad), My youngest is at the top of her class and is in the running to be Valavictorian two years from now when she graduates. She will be going on to Baylor to study Medicine.

My Sister has three kids by two different men. She was married at least six times (I Lost count). She raised NONE of her kids. The oldest is currently in Huntsville State Prison doing time for Drugs. He Did not graduate from High School, The middle child is currently undergoing her second divorce (she has two kids by two different men). She managed to graduate from High School but just barely. The third child which was raised by her father is married to the father of her child and seems to be getting on with her life.

I believe in Parental Responsiblility, I guess so much that i sometimes take it for granted.

[Longhorn_Platinum]

I said students AND teachers, I see the class room as a team. The teacher is the team leader, but cooperation is required for it to work succesfully. Some teachers DO NOT by any means even TRY to teach. Teaching means a majority of people understand what is going on, and to me a majority is 70%. If students are required to know 70% of the material in a course to pass it, then a teacher should atleast be able to pass 70% of the students.

:unsmile: The teacher shouldn't pass or fail anyone. The students should earn their grades. You didn't answer my question. If a student refuses to do his homework, study, bring supplies to class, or even attend class, why should I be blamed? If 31% of my students persist in acting in juvenile, irresponsible fashion, why is that the teacher's fault? I know that as a student, what you're saying seems reasonable, & when I was your age, I agreed, but now that I'm on the other side of the big desk, I see things that you don't. If your standard became the rule, teachers would be forced to compromise with students, just to reach their quota. That's the social promotion I'm against.

:unsmile: Also, consider what my coöperating teacher told me, when I was student teaching.


]You can't make these kids do anything. They have to want to do it. All you can do is to set up a system of rewards for students who make good choices, & consequences for students who make bad choices. Yet, no matter how sweet the rewards, or how severe the consequences, there will always be students who persist in making bad choices. And you can't blame yourself when they fail. They failed because they persisted in making bad choices.[/[/b]QUOTE]

:unsmile: When I first started teaching on my own, I thought that there must surely be ways I could force students to learn. And I blamed myself when they failed. It took time, but eventually I saw that Mrs. McGowan was right. They failed because of their own bad choices. They CHOSE not to do homework. They CHOSE to not study for tests. They CHOSE to skip class. They CHOSE to wander into class late. They CHOSE to hold their pee, instead of taking care of their needs in between classes, so they could demand the hall pass, miss part of class. They CHOSE to read Harry Potter, when they should have been working on their math. They CHOSE to stay up past midnight, playing video games, so that they couldn't stay awake in class the next day. They CHOSE to smoke pot at lunch, & come to their afternoon classes high as a kite. They CHOSE to disrupt class. They CHOSE to wander the halls. They CHOSE to write letters, instead of paying attention. Look around, you, dude. If you'll only open your eyes, you'll see the bad choices that your classmates make. Although, if you're in advanced classes, you won't see that much, but in an average or low-level class, you'll begin to see your classmates do everything they can to try the teacher's patience. If they do enough of it, they'll earn an F. And it's their own fault. And it's still their fault, even if the majority of the class is doing it, too.



[QUOTE]I agree completly that the students need to do their part too, but could you honestly say you are doing a good job if you correct a test and more than a third of your class fails? What about 100% of the class fails?

:unsmile: Yes. I've never had that happen, but I've had entire classes try my patience. Once, in summer school, I had seventeen students, & most refused to take the work seriously. They decided to copy off of each other on the final exam, so they could spend 5½ days making my life a living Hell with their crude behavior. I even WARNED them that they would all have different tests. On the final afternoon, they all stared wide-eyed at each other's tests, in utter disbelief that I meant what I said. Only four passed. Did I do my job? YES. Did they do theirs? Only four of them. There's no way I could have curved those grades just to meet a quota, because that would have rewarded their behavior.

'm not really not saying for it to be a popularity contest, but driving someone to excel and bullying them are two entirely different things.

:unsmile: But, you said a teacher should be removed, if it pleases a majority of his/her students. How will you determine this? Will the students vote on their teachers? I can hear it now.

* "If you won't pass me, I'll vote to have you fired."

* "If you won't let me go to the BATHroom, I'll vote to have you fired."

* "If you won't give us a free period, I'll vote to have you fired."

* "If you won't let me go to the office to use the phone, I'll vote to have you fired."

* "If you won't let me slide on beïng tardy, I'll vote to have you fired."

* "If you won't write me a pass to be excused from your class to go talk to my favorite teacher, I'll vote to have you fired."

:unsmile: I could go on & on. There would be no end to the blackmail students would use on teachers.

There are teachers who like their students to hate them. Not because of the work that they assign, but because of their harassment and constant targetting of particular students. People are people and teachers are no different. If a manager at a workplace was generall disliked, made employees feel stupid and for no particular reason than personal feelings targeted them, a responsible employer would do something about it and so should schools.

:unsmile: Good teachers don't want their students to hate them, but good teachers often have to make tough calls that students don't like. You won't agree with a bit of this, because it isn't in sync with the student agenda, but here goes. I cannot let you go to the restroom every day. You need to be in class learning, & working on your lessons, not wandering the hall. I have to teach a lesson every day, not give you a free period, not only because the principal expects it, but because you yourself said that some teachers don't teach. I cannot let you go to your locker to retrieve the item you forgot, because then, I'd have to let everybody do that, & some students would purposely start "forgetting" items, just so I'd have to let them use the hall pass, & this would result in chaos. For the same reason, I can't let you go to the office to use the phone, because of some personal "emergency" that has nothing to do with my class. I can't let you go back to your third period teacher to do extra work for her class to bring up your grade, because then, you'd fall behind in my class, & according to you, that would be my fault. I can't lend you a pencil or pen, because then, you'd expect it from me every day, & so would others. I can't allow you to continue your conversation after the bell, because it's time to start class, & others want to learn. I shouldn't have to waste class time explaining why I can't grant your every picayune request, because most students don't want to hear the reasons, they just want to be argumentative.

:unsmile: Again, I could go on & on. There are certain things I must do to maintain order & control in my classroom, & students get pissed off if I don't make exceptions for them. Teaching requires us to be tough & do things that aren't always popular. I shouldn't have students blackmailing me with my livelihood, because they don't like the rules of the class.

:unsmile: As for the teachers who are total assholes, learn to deal with it. It's unfortunate that that happens, but jeopardizing the whole system to get rid of a few "mean" teachers isn't the answer. Besides, if you think your teachers are tough, wait until you get an employer.

[ConservativeYouthMovement]

Should the parents be held accountable: Yes, but they have nothing to lose if they dont care anyway. Everyone else has something lost or gained except parents who dont care.

[Jim Sentry]

PLEASE FOCUS ON PARENTS. Homeschool has decided that's best for her kids and God Bless her. she see's the problem and is doing something about it.

Grranted many teachers could do better but for a variety reasons they just don't want to. That leaves responsibility up to you the Parent.

Homeschool what say you?

[Rink]

Well my suggestion on how to fix the problem i guess would not only be parental involvement and/or accountability, but I think the appropriate word would be Parental Responsibility in just plain Raising their kids.

Too many parents use Public schools as a free daycare facility, in order to get junior or juniorette out of their hair for a while.

Their kids run like hellions at home and most parents are either uninterested in their kids cuz they're either too busy with their social life, keeping up with the jonses, working more than one job, or they cant stand their brats long enough to bother caring. (after doing their biological civic duty in producing children in a marriage they try or do go back to living their lives like they used to when they didnt have kids, party runnin around or too much work or some such worldly fixation they had before and dont bother with 'RAISING' their kids anymore, they did their duty and now they with their 'entitlement attitude thats been inculcated into them for the past 40 or so years feel the government will help educate and raise their kids For them.)

So Parental Responsibility in Raising, training, and educatin their children should be Numero uno priority, the boat the cadillac the big house is all secondary now that they have kids.

in schools parents need to be involved in every aspect of their childrens education. if the schools wont meet or work with parents then only two other words would come into the equation, Either 'Private School' junior and STILL be involved or Homeschool junior and STILL be involved.

Parental Involvement in their children's lives is a MUST in any situation here with Americsan education

So after saying that for me if I had my druthers in fixing the problem, I'd say this:

#1. Parental Involvement in their children's lives and raise, ttrain and educate their children like parents ought to

#2. Work with the school system and work to get appropriate curriculum for their kids i.e. the Three R's must be stressed and make certain the schools TEACH these kids how to do their math, read, and write their own names.

#3. If the public school system wont work with the parents and goes against parental involvement, input etc, then Parents should be obligated to find a private school that fits their needs in schooling their child and they still should stay INVOLVED.

#4. if Private schooling isnt able to be had then Homeschooling should be done and the parents AGAIN are involved.

One oddball thing

#5 Children with their schooling whether it be public, private or homeschooling should ALWAYS learn a trade!!!
So they dont be lazy leeches on society.

Teach em a trade and teach em a work ethic then when ready send them out in the world to work for a living and NOT pander, enable or 'save' them from their financial or social pitfalls.

[HomeschoolrsRUs]

PLEASE FOCUS ON PARENTS. Homeschool has decided that's best for her kids and God Bless her. she see's the problem and is doing something about it.

Grranted many teachers could do better but for a variety reasons they just don't want to. That leaves responsibility up to you the Parent.

Homeschool what say you?

The problem, Jim, is how do you MAKE parents BE parents? The government has sent the message, "You need help, so we'll do all we can for you," taking the avenue of responsibility and re-routing it away from the parents and into the purview of the government school system. As I stated before, they provide breakfast, lunch, after-school care, and transportation. What are the parents needed for? The message that the parent gets is that their kids are in "good hands." What they are doing by accepting the message is entrusting their children to people who they don't know, who they have no absolute idea of their philosophical bent(s), and trusting that those people -- who have NO vested interest in their child -- will do the BEST for their children. It's just not so.

One way that COULD help turn things around is MAKE parents more responsible. Remove the "perks," and force parents to find a way . . . no more schoolbus, no more breakfasts/lunches provided (just a cafeteria, where children can bring a boxed lunch from home), no more after-school care, require parents to spend at LEAST one in-class hour a week with their children, daily assignment sheets signed by parents, grades go out on a weekly, not semester basis, etc. We don't have to implement them all, nor all at once, but a gradual shift to more parental responsbility/involvement might help.

A person is not "owed" anything by the state of federal government if THEY choose to bring a child into this world. THEY should be held accountable for that decision. And there's no excuse for the "accidents" of this world either . . . it was no accident they chose to engage in the act which created the child. Choice begins BEFORE the sexual act, NOT after it.

[Jim Sentry]

Maybe there should be mandatory Parent/Teacher conferences for those kids who are failing. If the Parent is incapable, for whatever reason, to change the student's behaviour then the student be put into some type of work study program.

Maybe that will teach the kid a trade and develop a work ethic.

[ThomasIsUnderrated]

If students are required to know 70% of the material in a course to pass it, then a teacher should atleast be able to pass 70% of the students.

I really don't see how you get from If to Then in this statement.

I agree completly that the students need to do their part too, but could you honestly say you are doing a good job if you correct a test and more than a third of your class fails?

Wouldn't that depend on the test?

For example, if you had a test with just one 15-point FRQ that covered material from the homework and/or class, and the student average was 8/15 for that question, why wouldn't it be appropriate for the teacher to say that the average score wasn't worthy of a C? Are you suggesting that the teacher should shift the scoring, and make 8/15 equivalent to 70%? The class covered the material. The students chose not to work to retain it.

What about 100% of the class fails?

Are we talking about tests with MCQs or ones with FRQs?

If it's the former, a 100% failure rate is unlikely, even if the students were just guessing. [Unless the teacher was smart and removed the advantage by grading with something like R - (.25*W)= S. (R=number of right answers; W=number of wrong answers; S=score; No extra deduction for blank answers, they just receive zero points.)]

If it's the latter, then it is certainly possible that the teacher is grading too hard. However, it's also possible that the students didn't take the test seriously.

[Longhorn_Platinum]

If it's the latter, then it is certainly possible that the teacher is grading too hard. However, it's also possible that the students didn't take the test seriously.

:unsmile: With all the pressure on teachers to pass as many students as possible, I'd go with "the students didn't take the test seriously". In fact, a lot of them don't take school seriously, but it's the teacher's fault when they fail. Don't expect a response from ConservativeYouthMovement. I think he's wimped out on this thread.

[Bluemoon_Rising]

1. Abolish the Dept of Ed. and get fedgovt out of it altogether.

2. Put education at the state level.

3. Enact a law putting education outside the purview of the courts, thereby keeping it forever in the political realm.

These are practical steps. However, the best thing would be to simply get the government out of education all together. But first . . . kill all the lawyers.