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Shadow
04-25-2005, 03:48 PM
From: http://www.fff.org/freedom/fd0412d.asp

The Great Voucher Fraud
<!-- put file name of author's bio in href below, before .asp --><!-- remove the following tag if author does not have a bio page --><!-- ALSO: in that case, put the comma inside the tags -->by Laurence M. Vance, <!-- put date below before </font> tag -->Posted March 25, 2005

The mantra of “school choice” is repeated endlessly by proponents of educational vouchers, and is getting louder. But does an income-transfer program cease to be an income-transfer program just because it is recommended by conservatives, libertarians, a Republican president, and free-market economists?

Advocates of educational reform are agreed on one thing: the doleful condition of the public school system. But instead of proposing a free-market solution, the panacea offered for improving the education of American youth is usually government vouchers. The federal government would provide each child a voucher worth enough money to fund his education. Parents would have the “choice” of the school on which to spend the voucher. The school would then redeem the voucher for payment from the federal government. If this was describing anything but vouchers for education, it would be denounced as an income-transfer program as well as a subsidy to private industry, courtesy of the U.S. taxpayer.

But rather than being viewed as another income-transfer and corporate-welfare program, vouchers have garnered the support of many conservatives and libertarians who would otherwise be outraged if taxpayer money flowed anywhere but into education. Because of the opposition to vouchers by the National Education Association, the American Federation of Teachers, and local teachers’ unions, many ardent defenders of the free market have latched on to the voucher movement. Many conservatives who only recently talked about abolishing the federal department of education now support increased government funding of education through vouchers. Some libertarians claim that vouchers will improve education by fostering competition. The Milton & Rose Friedman Foundation is pushing vouchers under the rubric of “educational choice.”

The voucher solution is understandable coming from conservatives, since they generally have no problem with using the state to further their political and social agendas. However, for libertarians to embrace a government program such as vouchers is indeed troubling.

Yet vouchers themselves are not a bad idea. There are many private voucher programs in existence. Even in the ideal case of a complete separation of school and state, vouchers would be a viable alternative for the funding of education, and perhaps very much so. The problem with vouchers is their funding.

The main objection to government vouchers is that they are paid for by the taxpayers — the same taxpayers who already fund the public school system. So not only are vouchers an income-transfer program, they amount to a double tax: the taxpayer foots the bill for both public and private schools. Vouchers are “fresh money.” Tax money spent on educational vouchers does not come out of tax money spent for traditional schooling. No current voucher proposal even hints at a reduction in funding for public schools to pay for vouchers. To argue that parents who receive vouchers to fund their children’s education would merely be getting back some of their own tax dollars is to ignore the fact that most of the parents eligible for vouchers will pay little or no taxes to begin with.

But even aside from the funding issue, there are still a number of problems with government educational vouchers.

First of all, the state does not give without taking something in return: it always controls what it subsidizes. After accepting public money, private schools will no longer be responsible to parents but to government. Therefore, vouchers will ultimately destroy private schools and the identity of sectarian schools.

Second, vouchers will make private schools inefficient. Without vouchers, private schools must compete for business in the free market. If every private school is on the government dole, the incentive to keep costs down will be greatly diminished. The universal availability of vouchers will distort the marketplace by establishing a floor below which tuition would not sink.

Third, vouchers will put some private schools out of business. This will happen in two ways. Schools that refuse to accept vouchers will most likely find fewer paying customers. Schools forced to accept vouchers (can a restaurant refuse to serve anyone?) might well choose to close their doors rather than fall under government control.

Fourth, the correct solution to a problem is never increased government intervention. Government is the problem, not the solution. Increasing government intervention and forcing someone to pay for the education of someone else’s children are about as far afield from libertarianism as one can get.

Fifth, to imply that vouchers are what enable parents to have “school choice” is to perpetuate the myth that parents don’t already have a choice about their own children’s education. All parents have “school choice” right now — just as they have food choice, clothes choice, and car choice. What voucher supporters really mean by “school choice” is that parents don’t have a choice of where to spend other people’s money for the education of their children.

Sixth, voucher proponents don’t advocate food stamps or government-subsidized housing and medical-care programs. So why do they compromise on the issue of education? What is so magical about education? Vouchers are nothing but food stamps for education, and even worse, since they would generally pay the entire cost of a child’s education...

Continued here: http://www.fff.org/freedom/fd0412d.asp

HomeschoolrsRUs
04-25-2005, 09:10 PM
From: http://www.fff.org/freedom/fd0412d.asp

The Great Voucher Fraud
<!-- put file name of author's bio in href below, before .asp --><!-- remove the following tag if author does not have a bio page --><!-- ALSO: in that case, put the comma inside the tags -->by Laurence M. Vance, <!-- put date below before </font> tag -->Posted March 25, 2005

Government is the problem, not the solution.


:claps: :claps: :claps:

'Nuff said.

DesertFox
04-25-2005, 11:17 PM
I don't see how vouchers have anything to do with "corporate welfare."

CzechPrince
04-25-2005, 11:56 PM
They don't. Corportate welfare is money from governments to corporations, hence the term corporate, and with that comes the socialistic ideals of subsidies.

As a libertarian, I support vouchers. It would be cheaper because the only funding schools would get are the ones who are performing, and it would increase competition to be, "The Best School." It's the same reason we beleive in a free market, privatized healthcare and social security: competition for the best quality product/service.

HomeschoolrsRUs
04-26-2005, 08:50 AM
As a libertarian, I support vouchers. It would be cheaper because the only funding schools would get are the ones who are performing, and it would increase competition to be, "The Best School." It's the same reason we beleive in a free market, privatized healthcare and social security: competition for the best quality product/service.

From: http://www.fff.org/freedom/fd0412d.asp

The Great Voucher Fraud
<!-- put file name of author's bio in href below, before .asp --><!-- remove the following tag if author does not have a bio page --><!-- ALSO: in that case, put the comma inside the tags -->by Laurence M. Vance, <!-- put date below before </font> tag -->Posted March 25, 2005

The problem with vouchers is their funding.

The main objection to government vouchers is that they are paid for by the taxpayers — the same taxpayers who already fund the public school system. So not only are vouchers an income-transfer program, they amount to a double tax: the taxpayer foots the bill for both public and private schools. Vouchers are “fresh money.” Tax money spent on educational vouchers does not come out of tax money spent for traditional schooling. No current voucher proposal even hints at a reduction in funding for public schools to pay for vouchers. To argue that parents who receive vouchers to fund their children’s education would merely be getting back some of their own tax dollars is to ignore the fact that most of the parents eligible for vouchers will pay little or no taxes to begin with.

Nope, doesn't work that way Czech. Vouchers would amount to an INCREASE in taxes for the citizen. They will NOT take money AWAY from public schooling to fund the vouchers, which will require an ADDITIONAL tax to fund the vouchers.

AS LONG as the government is involved, education will ALWAYS be a money-scheme bureaucracy. Get the government out of education all together, period.

tacitus
04-26-2005, 08:59 AM
Homes said AS LONG as the government is involved, education will ALWAYS be a money-scheme bureaucracy. Get the government out of education all together, period.

Amen.

Shadow
04-26-2005, 09:52 AM
Corporations function as private businesses do, and private schools are private businesses. Vouchers would pump tax payer money into these private businesses, thus making the analogy viable in my opinion.

Competition involves people getting the most for their dollars spent. Since vouchers will provide them with a service for free, that aspect of competition will be nullified. People are less likely to scrutinize something that they receive free of charge. So what will happen is that those parents who treat the public schools as an overrated babysitting service will find the private school closest to their homes and treat them the same way.

Schools in general are not failing our students. Students are failing themselves and their parents are failing them. If you take the staff from a failing inner city school, and give them the student body of a successful suburban public school, those suburban kids will still do well. A school voucher program will simply move the problem from one location to another.
<O:p</O:p
And history should make it clear that when the government puts money into something, they regulate it. Private schools will not freely kick out problem kids. The financial gain of keeping as many students as possible along with government pressure will cause them to lower their standards. The notion of voucher students having the choice of skipping the religious services mandated in parochial schools has already been put forth. I have already seen situations whereas Catholic schools will make financial exceptions to low income families and there kids are the main ones cursing and fighting in the school. The Catholic Church is so intent on helping the poor that it often bends its rules to accommodate such behavior. People who send their kids to private schools do so in order to keep to their kids away from such bad influences.

The proposed voucher plan where I live involves initially a random pick of public school students who apply regardless of income. Students already in private schools are not eligible. My kids are in Catholic school and I am far from being rich. I scuffle and sacrifice to pay their fees and as a result of my initial sacrifice for the betterment of my children, I would not be eligible for any type of voucher. Now is that fair? I would be paying through taxes for the public school kids, out of my pocket for my kids to go to school, and through taxes for other kids to attend the same private school that my kids attend.


If we want better schools, put principals like Joe Clark in them and allow them to kick triffling a$$es and put them out if necessary. There should be tough reform schools and/or bootcamps waiting for those kicked out; tough enough to make them regret ever getting themselves kicked out of school in the first place. For anyone who has ever worked in the public schools, it is a good feeling when a hard headed gang banger comes back to the school from bootcamp walking on eggshells and addressing his teachers as "SIR, YES SIR." That's a case where something has been done right.
<O:p
Ken Overstreet stated it well at his website:

http://www.overstreetstatehouse95.com/page2-pltf.htm (http://www.overstreetstatehouse95.com/page2-pltf.htm)
<O:p</O:p
“School </ST1:pVouchers should be opposed. Government vouchers would enable anyone to attend a private school for free. This would be a government boondoggle program which would destroy both the present public school system and also destroy the private schools. Private schools would now be confronted with lawsuits for refusing vouchers from undesirable students. Parents at the local level should be able to send their children to the public school of their choice and there should be more opportunities to create local neighborhood schools. The only school voucher I would support would be a tax credit on property or income tax.”

Shadow
04-26-2005, 10:03 AM
They will NOT take money AWAY from public schooling to fund the vouchers, which will require an ADDITIONAL tax to fund the vouchers.

Exactly. The idea of vouchers taking away money from the public schools is the Democrat's reasoning behind opposing vouchers. This reasoning, as far as I can see, has no credibility.

I oppose vouchers for totally different reasons, with the main reason being preventing the expansion of government influence in education.

HomeschoolrsRUs
04-26-2005, 10:07 AM
Schools in general are not failing our students. Students are failing themselves and their parents are failing them.

Wrong, IMHO. The GOVERNMENT is failing it's citizens. I understand mandating educational standards, I do NOT understand mandating, running, and funding schools -- they mismanage EVERYTHING, why trust them in THIS regard? Return schools to the private sector, let the parents dictate the running AND funding.



The proposed voucher plan where I live involves initially a random pick of public school students who apply regardless of income. Students already in private schools are not eligible. My kids are in Catholic school and I am far from being rich. I scuffle and sacrifice to pay their fees and as a result of my initial sacrifice for the betterment of my children, I would not be eligible for any type of voucher. Now is that fair? I would be paying through taxes for the public school kids, out of my pocket for my kids to go to school, and through taxes for other kids to attend the same private school that my kids attend.

Welcome to MY world. I can't even get a TAX BREAK because I home educate my children. Not to mention, I cannot even take my children to the school playground AFTER school has let out, the playground MY tax dollars go to support too, because THEY have to provide an "after-school program" for those kids whose parents are not home to watch them.

I do not understand why we need to filter ANY tax payer dollars through an education system. Take out the middle-man (government) and return the education system to the parents and students.


If we want better schools, put principals like Joe Clark in them and allow them to kick triffling a$$es and put them out if necessary.

If we want better schools, we need to get them out from under the thumb of government, period.

Lazarus
04-26-2005, 02:40 PM
HomeschoolrsRUs is right... The government should never have gotten in the education business... Its one of the biggest frauds perpetrated on the American taxpayer...

Bluemoon_Rising
06-19-2005, 10:52 AM
Getting the government out of education at this point in the game is a pipedream. Only a grand and general revolt could acheive such a thing.

<font size=1>I can hold my breath for about 2 minutes tops.

When pigs fly.

When bears no longer sh*t in the woods.

When Hillary Clinton stops lying.

When Michael Jackson . . . never mind.</font>