My favorite quotes

[aeroz19]

"I am an agnostic because I trust my reason. It may not be the greatest that ever existed. I am inclined to admit that it isn't. But it is the best I have." --Clarence Darrow, in his essay "Absurdities of the Bible"

"Chase after the truth like all hell and you'll free yourself, even though you never touch its coat tails." --Clarence Darrow

"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." Benjamin Franklin, in Poor Richard's Almanack, 1758

"When I first heard from the lips of Lucretia Mott that I had the same right to think for myself that Luther, Calvin, and John Knox had, and the same right to be guided by my own convictions, and would no doubt live a higher, happier life than if guided by theirs, it was like suddenly coming into the rays of the noon-day sun, after wandering with a rushlight in the caves the earth." -- Elizabeth Cady Stanton, "I Had the Same Right to Think," in The History of Woman Suffrage, vol I, p. 422

"Why is is that the less intelligence people have, the more spiritual they are? They seem to fill all the vacant, ignorant spaces in their heads with soul. Which explains how it is that the less knowledge they have, the more religion." -- Joseph Lincoln Steffens, from Ira D. Cardiff, What Great Men Think of Religion, quoted from James A. Haught, 2000 Years of Disbelief

"The Bible and the Church have been the greatest stumbling blocks in the way of women's emancipation." -- Elizabeth Cady Stanton, from Free Thought Magazine (Sept. 1896)

"Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." --Thomas Jefferson

"All natural institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit." --Thomas Paine, from The Age of Reason

[Wyatt_Junker]

"All natural institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit." --Thomas Paine, from The Age of Reason

Okay, you found out. The question is 'how'? I've been going to church now for 16 years all because of my deeeeevious plan to take over the world and enslave mankind. But it took a complete anon like you to figger it all out.

I go to church just like your fav quote says, "TO TERRIFY, ENSLAVE and MONOPOLIZE POWER AND PROFIT!"

Its true.

I am evil.

Sue me.

[aeroz19]

"All natural institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit." --Thomas Paine, from The Age of Reason

Okay, you found out. The question is 'how'? I've been going to church now for 16 years all because of my deeeeevious plan to take over the world and enslave mankind. But it took a complete anon like you to figger it all out.

I go to church just like your fav quote says, "TO TERRIFY, ENSLAVE and MONOPOLIZE POWER AND PROFIT!"

Its true.

I am evil.

Sue me.

You're not an institution. You're the innocently enslaved. The priests/pastors hold you in captive, telling you that you have a soul, and then they frighten you by telling you what they think will happen to it in the afterlife, and they tell you what you must do and how you should live in order that your soul should reach eternal bliss instead of damnation, thereby controlling you and enslaving you in fear.

Churches and religious institutions don't have a plan for enslaving people because they are already enslaved. Most people in the world are religious, and it scares the hell out of people to think that their souls will meet eternal torture. By telling people they need to do x and y to get to heaven, the church continues to enslave humanity by telling it that dogmas and creeds and faith are more important than thinking for yourself, questioning, doubting, and rejecting fantasies.

[DesertFox]

I used to be an atheist. Then I started really paying attention to the natural world around me. And thinking about it. The more I thought, the more it seemed silly that all that "just happened."

Thinking about it even more, I arrived at the startlingly original conclusion that Something Made It All. From there it was but a hop, skip and jump to God's place just down the street, which ultimately turned out to be inside my own house.

Cable beats the living sheeite outta dialup, man.

[aeroz19]

I used to be an atheist. Then I started really paying attention to the natural world around me. And thinking about it. The more I thought, the more it seemed silly that all that "just happened."

Why? Do you understand the scientific theories that explain how we got here? The laundry list of evidences for the existence of God has shrunk down to a bare minimum. So much of nature points to there being no god at all. It's simply our hallucinations, fear, superstitions and ignorance that leads us to think that a god is there controlling it all. But the laws of nature run things, not God. Nature no longer demands a god to order it, guide it, or control it. Nature runs of it own accord, and science is our discovery of how it does so.

[DesertFox]

Well, my friend, it's sorta like listening to Rachmaninov and thinking, "That just happened! All by itself! The notes on those pages just appeared there all by theirselfs! Those strings just vibrate like that by happenstance! Those harmonies are pure chance! The acoustics, what a neat accident!"

"Why's that fool standing up there with that stick waving at his grandmother? Who does he think he is, anyway?"

Sounds like you're maybe 19. Are you?



Yeah, I can explain special and general relativity, and superstrings, and Newton, and Kepler, and evolution, and a buncha other stuff like that. They're what made me realize God was the Culprit. It's All His Fault.

[Wyatt_Junker]

Why? Do you understand the scientific theories that explain how we got here? The laundry list of evidences for the existence of God has shrunk down to a bare minimum. So much of nature points to there being no god at all. It's simply our hallucinations, fear, superstitions and ignorance that leads us to think that a god is there controlling it all. But the laws of nature run things, not God. Nature no longer demands a god to order it, guide it, or control it. Nature runs of it own accord, and science is our discovery of how it does so.

What kind of syrupy gaia-speak is this? You will now on be referred to as Aunt Jemima due to your cloying nature. You could be bottled, sold and served faster than the time it takes you to author that scratch.

C'mon, Epicurus. If tommorrow we shall die, then don't just throw a party. Really get deep with it: odeee, sleep around and get an irreversible STD. At least I would have a few more ticks of integrity points for you.

[maxparrish]

There are so many great quotes - but my list leans heavily on HL Menchen. None the less, I could have just as easily filled it with Reagen, Churchhill, WF Buckley, etc.

I want to know God's thoughts... the rest are details.
Albert Einstein

God does not care about our mathematical difficulties. He integrates empirically.
Albert Einstein

A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell.
C. S. Lewis

Reason in man is rather like God in the world.
Saint Thomas Aquinas

Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night.
Isaac Asimov

A cynic is a man who, when he smells flowers, looks around for a coffin.
H. L. Mencken (http://www.freeconservatives.com/quotes/quotes/h/hlmencke100281.html)


An idealist is one who, on noticing that roses smell better than a cabbage, concludes that it will also make better soup.
H. L. Mencken (http://www.freeconservatives.com/quotes/quotes/h/hlmencke108093.html)

A good politician is quite as unthinkable as an honest burglar.
H. L. Mencken (http://www.freeconservatives.com/quotes/quotes/h/hlmencke157553.html)

A judge is a law student who marks his own examination papers.
H. L. Mencken (http://www.freeconservatives.com/quotes/quotes/h/hlmencke137229.html)

A national political campaign is better than the best circus ever heard of, with a mass baptism and a couple of hangings thrown in.
H. L. Mencken (http://www.freeconservatives.com/quotes/quotes/h/hlmencke135598.html)

A politician is an animal which can sit on a fence and yet keep both ears to the ground.
H. L. Mencken (http://www.freeconservatives.com/quotes/quotes/h/hlmencke163231.html)

Democracy is the art and science of running the circus from the monkey cage.
H. L. Mencken (http://www.freeconservatives.com/quotes/quotes/h/hlmencke105483.html)

Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard.
H. L. Mencken (http://www.freeconservatives.com/quotes/quotes/h/hlmencke163179.html)

For centuries, theologians have been explaining the unknowable in terms of the-not-worth-knowing.
H. L. Mencken (http://www.freeconservatives.com/quotes/quotes/h/hlmencke161551.html)


If a politician found he had cannibals among his constituents, he would promise them missionaries for dinner.
H. L. Mencken (http://www.freeconservatives.com/quotes/quotes/h/hlmencke135597.html)


If, after I depart this vale, you ever remember me and have thought to please my ghost, forgive some sinner and wink your eye at some homely girl.
H. L. Mencken (http://www.freeconservatives.com/quotes/quotes/h/hlmencke106305.html)

It is even harder for the average ape to believe that he has descended from man.
H. L. Mencken (http://www.freeconservatives.com/quotes/quotes/h/hlmencke137237.html)

It is inaccurate to say that I hate everything. I am strongly in favor of common sense, common honesty, and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible for public office.
H. L. Mencken (http://www.freeconservatives.com/quotes/quotes/h/hlmencke137239.html)

Nothing is so abject and pathetic as a politician who has lost his job, save only a retired stud-horse.
H. L. Mencken (http://www.freeconservatives.com/quotes/quotes/h/hlmencke157554.html)


Puritanism. The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.
H. L. Mencken (http://www.freeconservatives.com/quotes/quotes/h/hlmencke125197.html)


The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.
H. L. Mencken (http://www.freeconservatives.com/quotes/quotes/h/hlmencke101109.html)


We must respect the other fellow's religion,but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart.
H. L. Mencken (http://www.freeconservatives.com/quotes/quotes/h/hlmencke101720.html)

[aeroz19]

Well, my friend, it's sorta like listening to Rachmaninov and thinking, "That just happened! All by itself! The notes on those pages just appeared there all by theirselfs! Those strings just vibrate like that by happenstance! Those harmonies are pure chance! The acoustics, what a neat accident!"

That's fallicious thinking. The intelligent design arguments hold no water. The earth was not designed. And if we were designed, then the creator is a complete idiot because of all the mistakes he made. I am not referring to imperfections brough on by the mythical fall of man, but rather the supposed original design, and their flaws.

The earth needs no design and shows no signs of having been designed. And we know that the earth is very old. The earth was formed gradually over time and has experienced many catastrophies that have wiped away life, and then brought life back. Life has evolved by natural selection--random forces that guided extenction and reproduction. The mark of god is unseen. Nature makes no demand for the existence of a god. Nature needs no god to have intervened or create it. Nature operates in a cold, slow and deliberate manner, uncaringly dissolving away that which is weaker and less worthy, and preserving that which is favorable.

Sounds like you're maybe 19. Are you?

Personal attacks...already? No, I am older than that. I was 19 when I began to use this username on the net and various message boards.

Yeah, I can explain special and general relativity, and superstrings, and Newton, and Kepler, and evolution, and a buncha other stuff like that. They're what made me realize God was the Culprit. It's All His Fault.

How so? These things do not require a god to intervene or do anything. The forces in nature operate by themselves and need no god.

[aeroz19]

What kind of syrupy gaia-speak is this? You will now on be referred to as Aunt Jemima due to your cloying nature. You could be bottled, sold and served faster than the time it takes you to author that scratch.

C'mon, Epicurus. If tommorrow we shall die, then don't just throw a party. Really get deep with it: odeee, sleep around and get an irreversible STD. At least I would have a few more ticks of integrity points for you.

I think not. I don't party, drink, sleep around, etc. Just because there is no god doesn't mean we can or should go insane.

[DesertFox]

Yeah, it was designed. All of it. And all of us. All designed. You don't have to believe me or "it" or God or Osama bin Laden or Jerry Springer. Don't matter to me.





The whole point of "laws of nature" is that God hizself don't have to be everywhere at every instant doing everything. Imagine how boring that would get! And how bizzy You'd be!

It's actually a mighty subtle universe, but then it takes a measure of subtlety to appreciate that fact.

[Wyatt_Junker]

Creationists say a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night.
Isaac Asimov



FIXED

I like that one a lot. So true.

[aeroz19]

Yeah, it was designed. All of it. And all of us. All designed. You don't have to believe me or "it" or God or Osama bin Laden or Jerry Springer. Don't matter to me.

The whole point of "laws of nature" is that God hizself don't have to be everywhere at every instant doing everything. Imagine how boring that would get! And how bizzy You'd be!

It's actually a mighty subtle universe, but then it takes a measure of subtlety to appreciate that fact.

If you are so sure, then show some proof. How do you know it was designed? Intelligent design is not a science, but a viewpoint. And it has been thoroughly debunked.

[aeroz19]

FIXED

I like that one a lot. So true.

...you aren't a young earth creationist? :)

[DesertFox]

I don't recollect saying ID was a theory. Did I say that? I humbly apologize. Seriously, I rilly, rilly do. SORRY! Cross my heart and hope to die!

You're clearly WAAAAAY too smart to be talking to the likes of me. I bet you're all of, what, 19?





As for God, to grasp Him takes not brains, but wisdom, sometimes called "common sense." Don't feel bad if you don't have any yet.

[aaron11]

Evo number 10,233 thinking he is the first one to espouse his religion on these boards...


Hath ye come to save us all~?

[DesertFox]

Hey, man, this dude be SMAHT. Careful handling required. Bet he even been to KAWLIJ and like that there. Us dumb rednecks, we been found out.

* sob *

[Wyatt_Junker]

That's fallicious thinking.


And that's delicious sounding.


The intelligent design arguments hold no water.


Medium physics?


The earth was not designed.


Neither is photosynthesis, but its hella convenient! Neither is the apt temperature of the sun, but it, too, strangely enough is spot on the money! Neither is the earth's distance from the sun, but is sure is handy! Neither is (insert precision to detail here).... ad nauseum.


And if we were designed, then the creator is a complete idiot because of all the mistakes he made. I am not referring to imperfections brough on by the mythical fall of man, but rather the supposed original design, and their flaws.


Let's not bring you into this, okay? You're new here and deserve a newbie's warm-hearted welcome.


The earth needs no design and shows no signs of having been designed.


Your tread-worn talking points are as if they were just facsimilied from headquarters. It reminds me of that scene in American History X, at the white supremecist rally when they were all being spoon fed the latest greatest fanciful aryan myths. Either that or a car salesman.... in Tijuana.


And we know that the earth is very old. The earth was formed gradually over time and has experienced many catastrophies that have wiped away life, and then brought life back. Life has evolved by natural selection--random forces that guided extenction and reproduction.


Again, more chirpy regurgitation.

Its like Calista Flockhart's chum-rilled diet.


The mark of god is unseen.


What is this, old school Iron Maiden?


Nature makes no demand for the existence of a god. Nature needs no god to have intervened or create it. Nature operates in a cold, slow and deliberate manner, uncaringly dissolving away that which is weaker and less worthy, and preserving that which is favorable.


Domi arigato mister Roboto...


Personal attacks...already? No, I am older than that. I was 19 when I began to use this username on the net and various message boards.


A regular Methusaleh. Listen up, did you neglect to see that cartoon sign that said you had to be 'this high' to sign up at good 'ol redneck FC? You might fall out and injure yourself. Where's your momee?


How so? These things do not require a god to intervene or do anything. The forces in nature operate by themselves and need no god.

And it is that very repetition that you require to maintain such a belief. Say it again. Again. And again. Wash the brain.

[aaron11]

HEHE Yea we attract some real winners...

Must be the cheese Wyatt keeps putting out...

[DesertFox]

My name is Maximus Decimus Meridius, general of the Felix Legion, Commander of the Northern Armies, loyal servant of the true Emperor. Husband to a murdered wife, father to a murdered son, and I will have my vengeance in this life or the next.

Or something like that.

[aaron11]

My name is Maximus Decimus Meridius, general of the Felix Legion, Commander of the Northern Armies, loyal servant of the true Emperor. Husband to a murdered wife, father to a murdered son, and I will have my vengeance in this life or the next.

Or something like that.

That was My favorite part of the movie...
:thumb:

[aeroz19]

I don't recollect saying ID was a theory. Did I say that? I humbly apologize. Seriously, I rilly, rilly do. SORRY! Cross my heart and hope to die!

Oh ok.

You're clearly WAAAAAY too smart to be talking to the likes of me. I bet you're all of, what, 19?

See post #9. Someone has already beaten you to resorting to personal attacks.

As for God, to grasp Him takes not brains, but wisdom, sometimes called "common sense." Don't feel bad if you don't have any yet.

I'm an apostate. Been in church all my life. I was a Christian for 19 years. I know all about it. God is a fantasy. No one can show that it even exists. Instead they subscribe to the four logical fallacies to prove that it exists. I posted the four fallacies on ChristianForums.com. One of them is circumstancial evidence, like finances or relationships. They think that because x happened, it must have been god; therefore god exist. Fallacy.

[aeroz19]

And that's delicious sounding.

Medium physics?

Neither is photosynthesis, but its hella convenient! Neither is the apt temperature of the sun, but it, too, strangely enough is spot on the money! Neither is the earth's distance from the sun, but is sure is handy! Neither is (insert precision to detail here).... ad nauseum

Let's not bring you into this, okay? You're new here and deserve a newbie's warm-hearted welcome.

Your tread-worn talking points are as if they were just facsimilied from headquarters. It reminds me of that scene in American History X, at the white supremecist rally when they were all being spoon fed the latest greatest fanciful aryan myths. Either that or a car salesman.... in Tijuana.

Again, more chirpy regurgitation.

Its like Calista Flockhart's chum-rilled diet.

What is this, old school Iron Maiden?

Domi arigato mister Roboto...

A regular Methusaleh. Listen up, did you neglect to see that cartoon sign that said you had to be 'this high' to sign up at good 'ol redneck FC? You might fall out and injure yourself. Where's your momee?

And it is that very repetition that you require to maintain such a belief. Say it again. Again. And again. Wash the brain.

Well, I won't take you too seriously either then. ;)

[DesertFox]

Trying to ascertain your age isn't a personal attack. Age explains a great deal, but you're not old enough yet to believe that.





You've just shown you have no concept of what "common sense" is. You've met all my expectations so far.

[aeroz19]

You've just shown you have no concept of what "common sense" is. You've met all my expectations so far.

And you have met mine as well.

[DesertFox]

Somehow I knew that before you ever even started posting.

[Wyatt_Junker]

And you have met mine as well.

Ooooh. The mirror post. Right back aitcha kind o' shit. The stuff of sticks-n-stones is. Cause youz like made of rubber and me of glue and whatever I say bounces off of you and sticks to me, 'cept you sayin it in reverse to DF. One of the more profound defense mechanisms used on forums today, it has claimed innumerable victims. It is also what the boy in the bubble used to house his rotting body, NTM the daughter in the Incredibles. This is what is called advanced, high-end rhetoric of the first order. All freemasons must learn 'the mirror' move before becoming an adept. How very John Kerry part 2 of you, and a very lethal form of verbal Steven Segalese.

[aaron11]

Him is an elite stinker...Of George clooney proportions...

[maxparrish]

That's fallicious thinking. The intelligent design arguments hold no water. The earth was not designed. And if we were designed, then the creator is a complete idiot because of all the mistakes he made. I am not referring to imperfections brough on by the mythical fall of man, but rather the supposed original design, and their flaws.

The earth needs no design and shows no signs of having been designed. And we know that the earth is very old. The earth was formed gradually over time and has experienced many catastrophies that have wiped away life, and then brought life back. Life has evolved by natural selection--random forces that guided extenction and reproduction. The mark of god is unseen. Nature makes no demand for the existence of a god. Nature needs no god to have intervened or create it. Nature operates in a cold, slow and deliberate manner, uncaringly dissolving away that which is weaker and less worthy, and preserving that which is favorable.

How so? These things do not require a god to intervene or do anything. The forces in nature operate by themselves and need no god. It is curious that for all your claimed belief in impersonal forces, you find room to note its 'imperfections' and 'flaws' while also suggesting that nature is 'cold, slow, and deliberate' in its dissolving of the 'less worthy' - such anthropomorphic characterizations suggest you are acting in God's stead, judging nature's impersonal efficacy as either 'good' or 'bad'...

Perhaps you have a different god, one that you have not examined. No, nature does not require 'god' because it is god...God is not a thing, it is....existence (everything known and unknown) itself. To touch the first and the last of all is to seek meaning of being in and of God. And for those that search, they find many remarkable things...among them the harmony and beauty of the cosmos. While the 'argument from design' may be, logically, unwarranted it is not necessarly false. Can you offer, for example, an argument of 'non-designed' to prove God could not have been designer/expression/reality itself?

No, I cannot say that reality should be called God or just 'natural forces'. I can say however, it is probably better to assume it/he has meaning because, as Lewis said, if you aim for heaven you'll get earth thrown in but if you aim for earth, you'll get niether.

As an agnostic I have long chosen to assume that God is a fiction; but it is my right (and growing belief) that he is real because existence is real, being is real, and while nature may not need to call itself God, we do...because we need (and should find) meaning. Yes, there are 'flaws', just as there is sublime beauty in orbits, gravity, stars, quasars, and energy. It may not be that there was a designer per se, but that we are a part of a self-expressed design...an unfolding of God.

For you the cosmos is cold - for me it is the infinite expression of God.

[DesertFox]

Nicely said, max.

When I's young and sure of everything, I had no problem setting God aside. No time for Him and all that. Only the weak needed God, etc.

When I got older and started slowing down -- in the way I perceived things -- I began seeing God everywhere I looked. It (He) just happened.

[aaron11]

Nicely said, max.

When I's young and sure of everything, I had no problem setting God aside. No time for Him and all that. Only the weak needed God, etc.

When I got older and started slowing down -- in the way I perceived things -- I began seeing God everywhere I looked. It (He) just happened.

That is very similar to what happened with me, Although it was triggered with my Sons birth... Biggest shock was how had I missed it? ya know?

[maxparrish]

Yes, I am starting to see God everywhere - not that I am even a Christian, but somehow it is growing in me...coming up in the most unexpected moments. Aeorz is on a crusade, he is young, he is looking for good guys/bad guys. He is looking to society to supply meaning...all well and good while one has a social future.

But then you put aside temporary things and know that (as one ages) there will not be a 'victory of good over evil' in your lifetime, or 'happiness forever' so whatever vexs you must be dealt with in another reality - one of what is inside you...

[DoctorDoom]

Another troll from IIDB is here to drool on himself. Here's are two quotes for you, child.

Psalm 14:1a The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.

Romans 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools...

[DoctorDoom]

From Atheist Troll Central (I will NOT link to that sewer):

aeroz19
New User

Join Date: January 2005
Location: WA
Posts: 47

I'm an Agnostic, and here is my deconversion story...

Used to be a fundie, a YECist, and ultra-conservative.

Aint so no more.aeroz19
01-11-2005, 09:04 PM
(Trying to remember all that I said in my OP which was accidentally deleted)

I love coming here to this site. I just came back from CF, and this post is a result of my frustration with with that overmoderated website. My original useraname, aeroz19, was suspended for 2 weeks for supposedly dissing Christians or Christianity. But what I said was that people should be more open minded and less hating and bigoted. My statement was taken to mean that Christians should be more open minded and less bigoted. And it's not allowed to criticize Christianity over there. That was the last straw for me. With my secondary username, I PMed a message to the mod that suspended me, saying that I hated being treated like a child for expressing my opinions, thoughts, and reasoning. That username is now having difficulty posting. Coincidence? I think not. AFter registering a third username, and it having the same problems as the second, I think that certain mods may have a personal hang-up with me.

My philosophy coincides with the philosophy of this website: think what you like, and say what you think...WITHOUT BEING CENSORED, HARASSED, AND SUSPENDED/DELETED. I enjoy just saying what I think. It's healthy to openly express what you think, and since I don't feel comfortable doing that around my family, I come here. (They're all fundies, literalists, and very superstitious.)

I don't really fit in at CF anyway, but as a rational, freethinking Christian, I don't fit in anywhere. However, I thought that my thoughts and opinions would be more welcome here than at CF (Censored Forum).

I love being here, I love talking with other freethinkers, I just love this site.

Many Christians seem so superstitious now that I am a freethinker. Example: the tsunami. Religious people (including Christians) think that God might have caused it, because he is angry with them (after all, they're Muslim, right)? Children of Satannnnnnnnnnn!!!!!

We should be ashamed of ourselved, using God to fill in the gaps of knowlege. THIS IS THE 21ST CENTURY!!!! We have the knowledge, but some people dont' care to look into it, or reject it because they think their supersition is better for them. My mom is one of those people. She thinks God was punishing the Muslims. It makes me angry!

Anyway, lets have a toast to our open-mindedness, rational and reasoned thought, and to knowledge. Here here! In celebration of our open minds, here here...II (http://www.freethought-forum.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-1479.html)

<hr>
aeroz19
Freethinker, Progressive, X-Christian
Reputation: 15,862
Health: 100%
Blessings: 397
Posts: 3,441

[snip]

And now, for the renunciation.

I, aeroz19, having been a YECist for all my life until the summer of 2004 at the age of 19 (shameful it took so long), do hereby, officially and forever, renounce my belief in the literal creation of a planet, solar system, people, and universe several thousand years ago.

The causes of this dramatic change are due to vigorous debate with evolutionists, atheists, agnostics, liberal Christians, and conservative gap-theory and other Christians; in-depth reading on topics such as Geology, Astronomy, and a few other sciences, which convinced me over the span of about 4 months, that a literal earth created about 6,000 years ago, was not scientifically possible; extensive and deep thought about the issues and materials I had read; and a willingness to be open-minded and not dismiss the truths that I was now so thoroughly and “dangerously” exposed to.

Through all this my mind was convinced that YECism is untrue, and was invented out of a desire of deeply religious people to validate a faith structure that would simply be too painful for them to leave.

End of renunciation.

The ramifications of this renunciation have been profound. When I gave up Biblical literalism, my intellectual bonds broke. I felt as though I had been released from a harbor and had drifted out to sea. The sea was adventurous, and held many possibilities. But it was also uncertain, unlike the safe harbor.

So I drifted to many small islands and found other harbors. Some of them are very safe, being made of steel instead of rotting wood. My ship never did fit at that old harbor anyway.

My new intellectual journey thus began. And since then I have come to see the world from a more agnostic-Christian point of view, if that is possible.

Many of you claim that evolution does not equal atheism, and I agree. The two are not directly related. However, the belief in evolution might lead to atheism in some cases. Ever since the Origin of Species, we humans have realized that the idea of a loving God who is directly involved in our existane and lives is not true, because species are not fixed, but evolve by a random, natural process of natural selection. This places God further away, not being directly involved in our creation or direction. Now God is a mysterious, distant, and uninvolved deity.

If God didn’t create us directly as Genesis indicates, is there any reason to believe that He is as directly involved with our lives as the rest of the Bible claims? If he allowed species to evolve painfully through survival and extinction, what does that say for us?

I have read that Genesis is not literal, but that certain other parts of the Bible are. This presents contradicting reasoning that is unacceptable. However, if someone creates a thread on it, I will become involved in the debate.

The unleashing of my intellectual curiosity has caused me to strongly desire another safe harbor in which to rest. I have not yet found that harbor. Perhaps there is no safe harbor. None of the great philosophers ever found one. Perhaps safe harbors are a delusion. Steel eventually gives way to erosion, and wood to rot.

In the book I am reading, there is a quote that goes something like this:
Is religion a projection of human fears and desires, or is it an expression of some innate knowing or connection with a deity? In other words, did we make God, or did He make us? Or neither?My official renunciation of YECism, and further inquiry into science and religion (http://www.christianforums.com/t1242587-my-official-renunciation-of-yecism-and-further-inquiry-into-science-and-religion.html)

He isn't 19. He's 20. Big flipping difference. He's still full of himself, still under the influence of teenage omniscience, and still blissfully unaware of his colossal ignorance.

Re the above pseudointellectual nonsense, it was on the "Christian" board that he attacked in the second quote, and the "Christians" of whom he said, "it's not allowed to criticize Christianity over there," responded to his epiphany as follows:

MartinM
The Singing Gondolier
23
Reputation: 2,519
Health: 87%
Blessings: 1,737
Posts: 2,320

Congratulations


sparklecat
Goddess of Justineianity
20
Reputation: 4,141
Health: 100%
Blessings: 3,003
Posts: 4,275

Nice... being able to admit you were wrong and go where the evidence leads is quite commendable And I certainly know where you're coming from - I was a YEC myself not too long ago.


BTW, If anyone digs up your old posts to tease you with, just yell at them.


Hax
Regular Member
Reputation: 4,733
Health: 92%
Blessings: 3
Posts: 440
Enjoy your stay in hell.

So, seriously, congrats with getting that monkey off your back. (pun? I think so!)


Vastavus
Something beautiful and enduring.
Reputation: 23,561
Health: 100%
Blessings: 84
Posts: 1,032

Congratulations! You seem like a kind and intelligent person, good to have you on our side. I look forward to seeing you on the forum!

Quote:
Enjoy your stay in hell.

Its pretty sad that before I saw who wrote this, I wasn't sure if it was a joke. lol.Now that we know what sort of clueless, barely-adult, "I's smart so I's a atheist!" hypermind we have here, and what sort of "Christians" inhabit his favorite board (although I didn't scan all 32 pages of the thread), it's safe to assume that he's about to be baptized in the fire reserved for trolls.

[aeroz19]

It is curious that for all your claimed belief in impersonal forces, you find room to note its 'imperfections' and 'flaws' while also suggesting that nature is 'cold, slow, and deliberate' in its dissolving of the 'less worthy' - such anthropomorphic characterizations

There is not one anthropomorphic thing in what I have said. And if there is, I didn't mean for it to be there. It's not about us humans. We aren't the center of the universe. We just happened to get here through random forces.

suggest you are acting in God's stead, judging nature's impersonal efficacy as either 'good' or 'bad'...

This feels like an "evolution is a religion" argument. Are you sure you're an agnostic? Perhaps you've been on this forum too long.

Perhaps you have a different god, one that you have not examined. No, nature does not require 'god' because it is god...

It most certainly is not.

God is not a thing, it is....existence (everything known and unknown) itself.

How ridiculous! If we say that existence = god, that is simply a viewpoint/perspective, and is just another way to define what a god is--a definition I do not accept.

No, I cannot say that reality should be called God or just 'natural forces'. I can say however, it is probably better to assume it/he has meaning because, as Lewis said, if you aim for heaven you'll get earth thrown in but if you aim for earth, you'll get niether.

C.S. Lewis, Christian apologist. ....are you sure you're an agnostic?

As an agnostic I have long chosen to assume that God is a fiction; but it is my right (and growing belief) that he is real because existence is real, being is real, and while nature may not need to call itself God, we do...because we need (and should find) meaning.

But our need does not warrant a god's existence. What if our "need" evolved? What if our "need" can be met by other people? Just because we "need" a god doesn't mean that one exists.

Yes, there are 'flaws', just as there is sublime beauty in orbits, gravity, stars, quasars, and energy. It may not be that there was a designer per se, but that we are a part of a self-expressed design...an unfolding of God.

For you the cosmos is cold - for me it is the infinite expression of God.

I have always seen the cosmos as cold. Even when I was a Christian, I would look up at the stars and think about them. One day I had been through some hellish ordeal, and I got home and sat outside to look up in the night sky. I saw the familiar stars, so distant, so steady. And I thought about how my ordeal could not reach them. All the murders and rapings and wars and tortures that had come before I was born and would come after I am gone, could never disturb the galaxies and suns and planets that continue in their steady orbits. They are blissfully unaware and untouched by any of our experiences and our sufferings.

[aeroz19]

Yes, I am starting to see God everywhere - not that I am even a Christian, but somehow it is growing in me...coming up in the most unexpected moments.

How do you know that it is god you see? Because it appeals to your humanity in some way or another?

Aeorz is on a crusade, he is young, he is looking for good guys/bad guys.

I am a woman.

Yes, I am young.

I am trying to distinguish who is the bad guy and who is the good guy, yes. For the most part, I have determined that everyone is the good guy and the bad guy, but some tend to be more good, and some more evil. I have had to redefine the good and the bad since my deconversion from Christianity.

He is looking to society to supply meaning...

I am looking in many different places, including my own reasoning.

all well and good while one has a social future.

I don't have a social life even right now. I just read a lot and chat on the net. lol. Oh, and I work. yeah

But then you put aside temporary things and know that (as one ages) there will not be a 'victory of good over evil' in your lifetime, or 'happiness forever' so whatever vexs you must be dealt with in another reality - one of what is inside you...

Not sure what you are talking about here.

[aeroz19]

From Atheist Troll Central (I will NOT link to that sewer):

Actually, this is the sewer.

You forgot to research my deconversion story. lol



He isn't 19. He's 20.

"She's" 20.

Big flipping difference. He's still full of himself, still under the influence of teenage omniscience,

Which shows you know nothing about me. I was never really a teen. I didn't do "teen" things. I didn't hang out much with other teens. I was an introvert who stayed at home and read books.

and still blissfully unaware of his colossal ignorance.

I've learned by now that when people say things like this, they're accusing someone of something that they actually are themselves. It happens over and over and over.

Re the above pseudointellectual nonsense

You don't know how much study time and open-minded effort I put into it to reach these conclusions.

Now that we know what sort of clueless, barely-adult, "I's smart so I's a atheist!" hypermind we have here, and what sort of "Christians" inhabit his favorite board (although I didn't scan all 32 pages of the thread), it's safe to assume that he's about to be baptized in the fire reserved for trolls.

I'm not a troll.

And what do you mean? You think I'm going to hell?

[aeroz19]

Another troll from IIDB is here to drool on himself. Here's are two quotes for you, child.

Psalm 14:1a The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.

Romans 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools...

I don't really care what ancient men, who had no access to the knowledge that we have today, thought or said about people who didn't believe that "since we exist there must be a god."

[aeroz19]

Another troll from IIDB is here to drool on himself.

Who's drooling on themselves?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v349/DocDoom777/DoomBoom2.jpg

[DoctorDoom]

Actually, this is the sewer.That attitude will not earn you points here.

You forgot to research my deconversion story. lolWhy would I bother? Your "See how tellijint I am?" tale was not impressive. I DID, BTW, read the foolish thing at CF, and remembered when I was 20 (42 years ago). I was also a young, cocky, self-worshipping atheist who thought that intellectuals simply MUST be atheists because it's like so, ya know, cool and stuff.

"She's" 20.BFD. Ignorance is asexual.

Which shows you know nothing about me. I was never really a teen. I didn't do "teen" things. I didn't hang out much with other teens. I was an introvert who stayed at home and read books.That has precisely zip to do with the Teenage Omniscience Syndrome. EVERY teenager who ever lived was or is omniscient between puberty and about 21.

"When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in 7 years."
-- Mark Twain

This should be posted on every refrigerator door where one or more of those annoying creatures lives:

<center><img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v349/DocDoom777/Teenagers.jpg" border="1" /></center>

I said this to my kids and I can say it to you: "Between you and me, we know everything. You know everything but that you're clueless, and I know that."

I've learned by now that when people say things like this, they're accusing someone of something that they actually are themselves. It happens over and over and over.And I learned decades ago that when pompous children like you start preening and strutting and saying how brilliant and educated they are, it's time to pull up the pant legs because it's too late to save the shoes.

BTW, don't give up your Mickey D job just yet. You're not ready for a career in psychology.

You don't know how much study time and open-minded effort I put into it to reach these conclusions.Oh, definitely! Color me awe-stricken. :rolleyes: You read materials that supported your intellectual bias and concluded that since you agreed with the crap, it must be correct.

I'm not a troll.Prove me wrong.

And what do you mean? You think I'm going to hell?I quoted Vastavus, who quoted Hax. Take it up with them. However, if you die as an atheist, don't expect to go up.

<hr>
I don't really care what ancient men, who had no access to the knowledge that we have today, thought or said about people who didn't believe that "since we exist there must be a god."You're 20. You are apparently quite intelligent. The problem is that intellect alone is not proof of anything. Some of the dumbest people that I encountered in my 38 years in industry were engineers and managers who were full of book-larnin' and devoid of practicality. They couldn't think outside the proverbial box. They gave much credence to the description of loafers as engineer shoes.

As I noted above, at 20, you're on the down side of teenage omniscience, a syndrome that affects ever child at 13 and doesn't fade away until the early 20s. I went through that phase, but reality demonstrated that all that I thought I knew, I didn't.

Beyond that, at 20 you don't have the three attributes that balance the intellect: maturity, experience and wisdom. They can't be taught. They result from living in the real world beyond the family home and the classrooms. Once you're on your own, you'll discover that life will sneak up on you with size 2000 boots and punt your ass across the street. And when you're getting up and looking around to see who the hell did that, boot meets butt again... and again... and again. And every time, you'll be a little more mature, a little more experienced, and a little wiser. That's life.

Doom's Great Truths of Life:

• Liberalism is lying to you.
• The world doesn't owe you anything.
• The world doesn't love you.
• The world doesn't like you.
• The world doesn't give a shit about you.
• There's no such thing as luck.
• Chance favors the prepared mind.
• You will get out of life what you put into it, maybe less but no more.
• Opportunity doesn't knock. You have to go looking for it.
• It takes a good many years years to be an overnight success.
• No truly successful person has ever said, "That's good enough."
• The majority of people that you'll meet on the way up are assholes.
• When you've become successful, the assholes will try to ruin you.
• The number of assholes increases as the square of your success.
• The more successful you are, the more you'll pay to support the parasites.
• When you've had your fill of assholes and parasites, you'll become a conservative.

And when you're a conservative, you'll realize that an atheist is a person who sits in a pile of leaves shouting, "THERE IS NO TREE!"

[DoctorDoom]

Who's drooling on themselves?It's not bragging when it's the truth. You haven't been here nearly long enough to appreciate the overarching magnificence of my intellect and the boundless depths of my knowledge. In time you will come to revere me as your mentor, as have so many before you. It's inevitable. Don't resist it.

In order that you might have a token by which to remember me, feel free to print this and post it in a prominent place near your puter. It will prove to be both a comfort and an inspiration each time you gaze at the simple words and contemplate the Awesome One of whom they speak.

<table align="center" bgcolor="black" bordercolor="#CCCCCC" border="4" cellpadding="8"><tr><td><div align="center"><font face="Verdana" color="gold" size="7">* DoctorDoom *<br><font size="6" color="silver">An Idol!<br>A Master!<br>A Legend!</font><font size="4"><br></font></font></div></td></tr></table>

Go in peace, child, knowing that you have been greatly honored.

[Trevelyan]

Why? Do you understand the scientific theories that explain how we got here? The laundry list of evidences for the existence of God has shrunk down to a bare minimum. So much of nature points to there being no god at all. It's simply our hallucinations, fear, superstitions and ignorance that leads us to think that a god is there controlling it all. But the laws of nature run things, not God. Nature no longer demands a god to order it, guide it, or control it. Nature runs of it own accord, and science is our discovery of how it does so.

Yes I agree with you that nature can run things on its own, but nature had to be created in the first place, and it is not possible for science to confirm or deny the existence of a God. Atheism is no more logical than believing a God set things into motion, and actually atheism is a little less logical in my view.

Anyway, if you were wondering, I believe in evolution, and I guess you can call me somewhat of a deist.

[Longhorn_Platinum]

"I am an agnostic because I trust my reason."

-Clarence Darrow

"An agnostic is a chickenshît atheïst."

-Madalyn O'Hair

:smirky:

[maxparrish]

There is not one anthropomorphic thing in what I have said. And if there is, I didn't mean for it to be there. It's not about us humans. We aren't the center of the universe. We just happened to get here through random forces.

It most certainly is not.

How ridiculous! If we say that existence = god, that is simply a viewpoint/perspective, and is just another way to define what a god is--a definition I do not accept.

But our need does not warrant a god's existence. What if our "need" evolved? What if our "need" can be met by other people? Just because we "need" a god doesn't mean that one exists.

If saying existence=God is the only way to define what God is, otherwise he is an object, a thing, within a greater reality. What God (or existence) is, is the question pursued by philosophers and theologians.

And our 'need' to know meaning within existence does warrant an a priori assumption, that of God. It warrants it (as any a priori assumption) because we choose it to be so AND because we are that tiny part of God's expression that can reflect upon the whole.

'Meaning' is not an objective thing that exists outside ourselves; it is our reality that existence provides us. As our human term, its reality is within our mental/spiritual being and is valid for us - the only expression of God that can reflect upon itself.

Does God exisit, of course he does, because existence exists. Does he have meaning, he must because meaning is what make's cognent life cognent. Even when you claim the universe is cold, random, impersonal you are giving it human meaning...you are describing God in these terms.

Your crabbed thinking derives from thinking of 'objects' (God, man, etc.) within reality, rather than attempting to understand the nature of that reality.

When I was 14, I read Bertrand Russels "Why I am Not a Christian" - I became an atheist. When I was 19, I read more and became an agnostic. When I was 40 I developed a split personality: an intellectual agnostic that, in moments of reflection or dire need, conceded there must be God. Today I am still an agnostic...with a difference.

Most agnostics say "I do not know if there is a God" so they choose not to believe. I agree, I do not know of God, but I choose to believe. It is an 'a priori' assumption that gives insight, that provides meaning, that may connect to something far deeper.

Bertrand Russel once said he prefered mathematics because it was impersonal, 'it never spoke back to him'; I prefer God because he does.

One day I had been through some hellish ordeal, and I got home and sat outside to look up in the night sky. I saw the familiar stars, so distant, so steady. And I thought about how my ordeal could not reach them. All the murders and rapings and wars and tortures that had come before I was born and would come after I am gone, could never disturb the galaxies and suns and planets that continue in their steady orbits. They are blissfully unaware and untouched by any of our experiences and our sufferings.

And therein you found meaning and comfort.

[maxparrish]

How do you know that it is god you see? Because it appeals to your humanity in some way or another?

I am a woman.

Yes, I am young.

I am trying to distinguish who is the bad guy and who is the good guy, yes. For the most part, I have determined that everyone is the good guy and the bad guy, but some tend to be more good, and some more evil. I have had to redefine the good and the bad since my deconversion from Christianity.

I am looking in many different places, including my own reasoning.

I don't have a social life even right now. I just read a lot and chat on the net. lol. Oh, and I work. yeah

Not sure what you are talking about here.

I should make a few things clear(er). I am not a YEC'er (rarely went to church in youth, just enough Sundays to be a 'confirmed' Episcopalian at 13.) I firmly believe in Evolution as much as I disbelieve the Bible is the literal truth of God (or that it is the whole truth). I don't believe in the divinity of Christ.

However, I have also found that those who are politically engaged and that are not believers are driven to find meaning within 'external' causes. In youth, I was very politically engaged, and hoped for a new society...something that did not happen. If anything, everything I believed in is fading away.

So, my assumption was you were coming from that direction - perhaps not.

[aaron11]

Most agnostics say "I do not know if there is a God" so they choose not to believe. I agree, I do not know of God, but I choose to believe. It is an 'a priori' assumption that gives insight, that provides meaning, that may connect to something far deeper.

I was wrong about you Max...

I apoligize...

I don't have the literary sense to put thoughts into words easily understood by anyone that doesn't know me. Fortunately it doesn't seem to inhibit my ability to understand truly meaningful words that are written by individuals that do possess that skill.

Much of what you have posted here hit very close to home...

Well said Max,

Thank You for that...

[aeroz19]

It's not bragging when it's the truth. You haven't been here nearly long enough to appreciate the overarching magnificence of my intellect and the boundless depths of my knowledge. In time you will come to revere me as your mentor, as have so many before you. It's inevitable. Don't resist it.

Oh my god, you're a complete airhead. :rolleyes:

In order that you might have a token by which to remember me, feel free to print this and post it in a prominent place near your puter. It will prove to be both a comfort and an inspiration each time you gaze at the simple words and contemplate the Awesome One of whom they speak.

<TABLE borderColor=#cccccc cellPadding=8 align=center bgColor=black border=4><TBODY><TR><TD>* DoctorDoom *

An Idol!
A Master!
A Legend!





</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

I feel better already, seeing such an open acknowledgement of your arrogance. There is no doubt. I will call you Rush Limbaugh; although this might sound like a compliment to you, it is really the worst of insults to me.

Go in peace, child, knowing that you have been greatly honored.

http://www3.christianforums.com/images/smilies/bow.gifYes, greatly honored.


:whatever:

[aeroz19]

That attitude will not earn you points here.

I would be utterly devastated to earn points here. While fiscal conservatism is a great idea, social conservatism is nearly a mental disease. What good has social conservatism produced in America? Nothing. It is liberals who can take credit for all the progress made in this country, from blacks and women voting to birth control methods to education to social justice. All women have Elizabeth Cady Stanton (an atheist), Susan B. Anthony (a liberal Quaker who later became Unitarian) and Lucretia Mott (a liberal Quaker) to thank for the right to vote, with the first two women being more responsible. Although I see these things as huge leaps in progress, I have learned that many conservatives do not place such a high value on these things, which is greatly disappointing and almost sick.


Why would I bother? Your "See how tellijint I am?" tale was not impressive. I DID, BTW, read the foolish thing at CF, and remembered when I was 20 (42 years ago). I was also a young, cocky, self-worshipping atheist who thought that intellectuals simply MUST be atheists because it's like so, ya know, cool and stuff.


Don't assume that I am what you were. I'm actually an agnostic. I don't know if there is a god. I think that most likely there is not one, but I can't prove it anymore than you can prove there is one. Most of the time people who think there is god say BS like, "I can see god in my child's eyes, and that is enough proof for me," or "Nature is so beautiful and moves me so; there must be a god." Those are utter fallacies.

I've never been described as cocky by my friends. I am the quiet reserved type.

BFD. Ignorance is asexual.

I don't know what BFD means.


That has precisely zip to do with the Teenage Omniscience Syndrome. EVERY teenager who ever lived was or is omniscient between puberty and about 21.

"When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in 7 years."
-- Mark Twain

This should be posted on every refrigerator door where one or more of those annoying creatures lives:







<CENTER>http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v349/DocDoom777/Teenagers.jpg</CENTER>




I said this to my kids and I can say it to you: "Between you and me, we know everything. You know everything but that you're clueless, and I know that."

Ohh, all-knowing wise one! I bow before you. :whatever:


And I learned decades ago that when pompous children like you start preening and strutting and saying how brilliant and educated they are, it's time to pull up the pant legs because it's too late to save the shoes.


Looks like you need to pull up your own pants.


BTW, don't give up your Mickey D job just yet. You're not ready for a career in psychology.


Ha ha! You don't have a clue what I do.


Oh, definitely! Color me awe-stricken. :rolleyes: You read materials that supported your intellectual bias and concluded that since you agreed with the crap, it must be correct.


Actually, I read materials from both sides of the argument. I am sure I did much more open-minded study than you did in your youth. I read a lot, and I read from both sides of the issues. I don't want to be fooled again, like I was for so long.

I quoted Vastavus, who quoted Hax. Take it up with them. However, if you die as an atheist, don't expect to go up.

Heaven and hell are fantasies that children and adults believe in, but the adults should know better.


You're 20. You are apparently quite intelligent.

My friends tell me so.

The problem is that intellect alone is not proof of anything.

Sure it is. Intellect can tell you what the truth is and what isn't.


Some of the dumbest people that I encountered in my 38 years in industry were engineers and managers who were full of book-larnin' and devoid of practicality. They couldn't think outside the proverbial box. They gave much credence to the description of loafers as engineer shoes.

As I noted above, at 20, you're on the down side of teenage omniscience, a syndrome that affects ever child at 13 and doesn't fade away until the early 20s. I went through that phase, but reality demonstrated that all that I thought I knew, I didn't.

Beyond that, at 20 you don't have the three attributes that balance the intellect: maturity, experience and wisdom. They can't be taught. They result from living in the real world beyond the family home and the classrooms. Once you're on your own, you'll discover that life will sneak up on you with size 2000 boots and punt your ass across the street. And when you're getting up and looking around to see who the hell did that, boot meets butt again... and again... and again. And every time, you'll be a little more mature, a little more experienced, and a little wiser. That's life.

A man or woman can live all their life as a skilled and mature individual with lots of wisdom and experience, and not even know how to read or do math. Therefore, they could believe all kinds of fallacies and be ignorant of the most basic things, and never know or care.

Doom's Great Truths of Life:

Here comes Rush Limbaugh again.

• Liberalism is lying to you.

Nope, liberalism was telling me the truth. Conservatism and fundamentalism lied to me, largely by withholding the truth. I never learned about Elizabeth Cady Stanton or Susan B. Anthony. And I learned that all the founding fathers were Christians. I learned that the earth was 6000 years old and all sorts of BS.

• The world doesn't owe you anything.

Of course it doens't. You must have thought I was a fiscal liberal. Think again! I'm a capitalist, fiscal conservative.

• The world doesn't love you.

Of course not! it want's to take what it can and use and abuse you! I have always said that! Duh!!!

• The world doesn't like you.

Um, yeah, I know.

• The world doesn't give a shit about you.

I agreeeeeeeeeeee

• There's no such thing as luck.

Yes there is, sometimes. I have seen it.

• Chance favors the prepared mind.

It certainly does. :)


• You will get out of life what you put into it, maybe less but no more.


I agree.

• Opportunity doesn't knock. You have to go looking for it.

Boy do I know that! It is damned hard finding a job! They don't just come to you!


• It takes a good many years years to be an overnight success.


Yep.


• No truly successful person has ever said, "That's good enough."


Agree.


• The majority of people that you'll meet on the way up are assholes.


I know! LOL


• When you've become successful, the assholes will try to ruin you.


I wouldn't doubt it.


• The number of assholes increases as the square of your success.


:D


• The more successful you are, the more you'll pay to support the parasites.


I'll bet.


• When you've had your fill of assholes and parasites, you'll become a conservative.


So a conservative is someone who has run out of patience, tolerance, and lovingkindness? Someone who has encountered too may assholes? Maybe they stayed around too many other conservatives too long. :D

And when you're a conservative, you'll realize that an atheist is a person who sits in a pile of leaves shouting, "THERE IS NO TREE!"

The leaves aren't there, except in people's imaginations. Show me one leaf. Just one. "Nature is wealllyyy pwedddyy" doesn't count.

[maxparrish]

I was wrong about you Max...

I apoligize...

I don't have the literary sense to put thoughts into words easily understood by anyone that doesn't know me. Fortunately it doesn't seem to inhibit my ability to understand truly meaningful words that are written by individuals that do possess that skill.

Much of what you have posted here hit very close to home...

Well said Max,

Thank You for that...

You don't owe my an apology - I am someone who is, at times, conflicted on these issues. It is very recent that I have decided that to believe is wiser than to doubt; and I remain committed in my views on evolution, science, and education issues. However, it has also become self-evident that the purely mechanistic view does not provide spiritual answers and I cannot believe in things greater than myself (e.g. liberty) selectively.

I used to write that "I have no need to assume a God" beyond my other 'a priori' assumptions (e.g. that life is good)...but then does that not compel one to ask if one needs to believe in anything beyond the wheels and cogs of existence? Agnostics such as the previous poster do have a sense of wonder, of sentimentality, of spirituality...they just bristle when you ask if is ascribed to "God". They say "why", I say "why not"?

[tacitus]

aeroz19 let's cut to the bottom line. Why are you here and what do you hope to accomplish with the time you have left here? I have read your trype at Christian Forums, FreeThinker IIDB and Croff &Flame and from what I have seen you are nothing but a flamer. If this is your purpose, and I see no other reason to think otherwise, your tenure here will be very brief.

<dt xmlns="" id="flame">
</dt><dt xmlns="" id="flame">flame</dt> <dd>
(http://2.%20vi.%20To%20speak%20incessantlyand/or%20rabidly%20on%20some%20relatively%20uninterest ing%20subject%20or%20with%20a%20patentlyridiculous %20attitude.) To post an email message intended to insult and provoke</dd> <dd>To speak incessantly and/or rabidly on some relatively uninteresting subject or with a patently ridiculous attitude.</dd><dd>Either of senses 1 or 2, directed with hostility at a particular person or people.

</dd> <dd>An instance of flaming. When a discussion degenerates into useless controversy, one might tell the participants “Now you're just flaming” or “Stop all that flamage!” to try to get them to cool down (so to speak).

</dd>

[aeroz19]

And our 'need' to know meaning within existence does warrant an a priori assumption, that of God. It warrants it (as any a priori assumption) because we choose it to be so AND because we are that tiny part of God's expression that can reflect upon the whole.

I am seeing this assumption that all that exists is an expression of God. Where are you getting this assumption? Is it an intuition?


'Meaning' is not an objective thing that exists outside ourselves; it is our reality that existence provides us. As our human term, its reality is within our mental/spiritual being and is valid for us - the only expression of God that can reflect upon itself.

Does God exisit, of course he does, because existence exists.


So God = all that exists...sounds like pantheism almost.

Does he have meaning, he must because meaning is what make's cognent life cognent.

Not following what you mean by this.

Even when you claim the universe is cold, random, impersonal you are giving it human meaning...you are describing God in these terms.

I am decribing it using some nice adjectives that seem to accurately describe unconscious rock and gas that orbits and moves at a great distance from us. "Cold," "random," and "impersonal" are not necessarily human descriptions.

And I am not describing God.

Your crabbed thinking derives from thinking of 'objects' (God, man, etc.) within reality, rather than attempting to understand the nature of that reality.

There is no "nature" to reality. Reality consists of objects and does not have a purpose or consciousness.


When I was 14, I read Bertrand Russels "Why I am Not a Christian" - I became an atheist. When I was 19, I read more and became an agnostic. When I was 40 I developed a split personality: an intellectual agnostic that, in moments of reflection or dire need, conceded there must be God. Today I am still an agnostic...with a difference.


One of the reasons people believe in supernaturalism or god is because of some need. You just admitted it right there. But believing or hoping due to a need does not make the object of belief or hope any more real than Santa.

Most agnostics say "I do not know if there is a God" so they choose not to believe.

Right, I am an agnostic and I do not believe. I am not sure though. There are days when I almost believe, but I can never be sure.


I agree, I do not know of God, but I choose to believe. It is an 'a priori' assumption that gives insight, that provides meaning, that may connect to something far deeper.


Belief feels good. It serves us. It gives us that warm fuzzy feeling. ...but I don't want the warm fuzzy feeling if it's just a fantasy.

Bertrand Russel once said he prefered mathematics because it was impersonal, 'it never spoke back to him'; I prefer God because he does.

And therein you found meaning and comfort.

Yes, religion offers meaning and comfort. I used to be religious; I know. There are days I want it back. Sometimes I even try to make myself believe again, but it doesn't work because I feel like I am making myself believe in Santa.

[DoctorDoom]

Oh my god, you're a complete airhead.And you, girl, are an immature trollette with no comprehension of how ridiculously easy it is to bait you.

My suggestion: click on the ears to be magically transported to a site where one of your level of maturity will feel at home.

http://www.mouseshoppe.com/custom/Product/MickeyMouseEars250Merge.gif (http://www.disboards.com/)

Or if that's too advanced, try this one.

http://images.chron.com/content/news/photos/05/01/23/spongebob.jpg (http://www.spongezone.net/forums/index.php)

[aeroz19]

aeroz19 let's cut to the bottom line. Why are you here and what do you hope to accomplish with the time you have left here?

Just checking out what conservatism is doing these days.

I have read your trype at Christian Forums, FreeThinker IIDB and Croff &Flame and from what I have seen you are nothing but a flamer.

You must have not seen the right threads. CrossandFlame? I haven't gone there in a long time. ;) Don't remember doing much flaming over there.

If this is your purpose, and I see no other reason to think otherwise, your tenure here will be very brief.

So, I have to agree with you, or doing otherwise is flaming? lol

[tacitus]

Thanks I thought you'd repky like this, http://freeconservatives.com/smilies/bye-bye_kittie.gif

[aeroz19]

And you, girl, are an immature trollette with no comprehension of how ridiculously easy it is to bait you.
I guess only the mods and administators are allowed to bait and flame, while the rest of us must mechanically agree and nod our heads.

[aeroz19]

Thanks I thought you'd repky like this, http://freeconservatives.com/smilies/bye-bye_kittie.gif

Vuh vye you diseased conservative. Muahh! ;)

[maxparrish]

I would be utterly devastated to earn points here. While fiscal conservatism is a great idea, social conservatism is nearly a mental disease. What good has social conservatism produced in America? Nothing. It is liberals who can take credit for all the progress made in this country, from blacks and women voting to birth control methods to education to social justice. All women have Elizabeth Cady Stanton (an atheist), Susan B. Anthony (a liberal Quaker who later became Unitarian) and Lucretia Mott (a liberal Quaker) to thank for the right to vote, with the first two women being more responsible. Although I see these things as huge leaps in progress, I have learned that many conservatives do not place such a high value on these things, which is greatly disappointing and almost sick. My best friend (I've known him since 7th grade) grew up a devout Jehovah's Witness. As a witness they were socially conservative, attended bible study two to three times a week, believed in a form of literal creationism, and were convinced that college was inappropriate for Christians (a source of higher criticism). Around the age of 18 or 19, he began to question his faith.

Many things contributed to this questioning: the hypocrisy of the church, the secret 'hearings' concerned with his fornication (he was turned in by a girl friend who repented), and finally, his reading of Ayn Rand. Rand, more than any other writer transformed his world view (it remains so today).

Initially he was very angry for being fooled and remained so for at least the next 20 years. Thankfully, Rand gave him the proper perspective on the importance and understanding of values, not 'conservative vs progressive'. "Social conservatism" is not always bad and, on the larger issues, usually right...if you understand itsvalues (not merely as some kinds of traditional practice).

So what are those values you find so offensive: hard work? thrift? family? marriage? pro-life? community? moderation? respect? honor? character? honesty, responsibility, self-reliance, respect for elders ?

And without these conservative social values, what have we experienced? The value of being a single unwed mother without a career opportunity? The value of experiencing drugs in Jr. High? The value of aborting on demand because one was not bright enough to use birth control (or abstain)? The value of familys without fathers (and many different biological fathers)? The value of a parent fearful of being unpopular with their own child because they can't date men as old as the parent?

I'll be the first to scoff at the occasional town that bans dancing, or the dry county, or the state that restrict's porn. But America does not suffer from insufficient dance halls, temperence, and a lack of porn...

And I should add, think about the 'social conservatism' of the left: trying to ban rude 'hate' speech, smoking, and political diversity on campus...

Nope, liberalism was telling me the truth. Conservatism and fundamentalism lied to me, largely by withholding the truth. I never learned about Elizabeth Cady Stanton or Susan B. Anthony. And I learned that all the founding fathers were Christians. I learned that the earth was 6000 years old and all sorts of BS.

Liberalism could not have been telling you the truth, because liberalism (in the modern sense) is everything you think of your former affiliation. Modern liberalism 'loves' to claim Stanton or Anthony among it's icons, while ignoring what they stood for: that women should be given the same political rights as men. They were led by a small middle-class, with an even smaller number of women with special concerns (and privilages) that seemed remote and irrelevant to working/poor classes...none the less, they understood the issue was equality of rights NOT equality of outcome, affirmative action, or gender politics. In many ways they were socially conservative (I believe many of these women founded the temperance movement) but held values on liberty that I (and most today) agree with.

Liberalism is anti-capitalist, collectivist, divisive, hateful, discriminatory, dogmatic, and elitist. Once a movement of the 'common man' it is a posuer, mimicing old rhetoric but holding none of those values.

[Pendragon_6]

That didn't take long

[Timberwolf]

I know the "enlightened one" won't be responding, but I had to add a few of my own...from G.K. Chesterton
"The evolutionists seem to know everything about the missing link except the fact that it is missing."


It isn't that they can't see the solution. It is that they can't see the problem.

Is one religion as good as another? Is one horse in the Derby as good as another?

Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and not tried.


Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.



What embitters the world is not excess of criticism, but an absence of self-criticism.

When learned men begin to use their reason, then I generally discover that they haven't got any.

War is not 'the best way of settling differences; it is the only way of preventing their being settled for you.

The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him.

The riddles of God are more satisfying than the solutions of man.

There are those who hate Christianity and call their hatred an all-embracing love for all religions.

If there were no God, there would be no atheists.
...and one of my own, just in case she's still lurking about the place...
You are so farking dense light couldn't escape the gravity well created by that empty space that should house a brain.
Trust me, I've tried to see things from your point of view, but find I can't get my head that far up my ass.