Iraqis Call Shuttle Disaster God's Vengeance

[Seeker of Truth]

Source (http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=1X312TZR5FUEOCRBAE0CF FA?type=topNews&storyID=2152783)


Iraqis Call Shuttle Disaster God's Vengeance
Sat February 1, 2003 02:08 PM ET
BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Immediate popular reaction in Baghdad on Saturday to the loss of the U.S. space shuttle Columbia and its seven-member crew -- including the first Israeli in space -- was that its was God's retribution on Americans.
"We are happy that it broke up," government employee Abdul Jabbar al-Quraishi said.

"God wants to show that his might is greater than the Americans. They have encroached on our country. God is avenging us," he said.

Car mechanic Mohammed Jaber al-Tamini noted Israeli air force Colonel Ilan Ramon was among the dead when the shuttle broke up shortly before its return to earth.

"Israel launched an aggression on us when it raided our nuclear reactor without any reason (in 1981), now time has come and God has retaliated to their aggression," Tamini said.

[Chris]

IC called that one right! I wonder if Sean thinks this is a disgusting thing to say. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

[Stetson]

[ QUOTE ]
Seeker of Truth said:
Source (http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=1X312TZR5FUEOCRBAE0CF FA?type=topNews&storyID=2152783)


Iraqis Call Shuttle Disaster God's Vengeance
Sat February 1, 2003 02:08 PM ET
BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Immediate popular reaction in Baghdad on Saturday to the loss of the U.S. space shuttle Columbia and its seven-member crew -- including the first Israeli in space -- was that its was God's retribution on Americans.
"We are happy that it broke up," government employee Abdul Jabbar al-Quraishi said.

"God wants to show that his might is greater than the Americans. They have encroached on our country. God is avenging us," he said.

Car mechanic Mohammed Jaber al-Tamini noted Israeli air force Colonel Ilan Ramon was among the dead when the shuttle broke up shortly before its return to earth.

"Israel launched an aggression on us when it raided our nuclear reactor without any reason (in 1981), now time has come and God has retaliated to their aggression," Tamini said.


[/ QUOTE ]


/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon133.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon133.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon133.gif

[2nd_Amendment]

You beat me to it. I was going to ask him the same thing.

[Wyatt_Junker]

Reading into God, a favorite hobby for the koran-wielding cult of cross-dressers.

Arab politics: A two-sided coin. Play the role of martyr and murderer. That way you hedge your bets. Victims AND vipers. Complain that you're getting bullied by Bush WHILE threatening ruin upon us. It doesn't get more twisted than that.

These ironic morons with their thick meaty smiles and lust for blood, justifying "vengeance" -God's no less- co-opting it for their own soul sickness in an attempt at cosmic theology. Pitiful.

[oracle]

[ QUOTE ]
Seeker of Truth said:
"Israel launched an aggression on us when it raided our nuclear reactor without any reason (in 1981), now time has come and God has retaliated to their aggression," Tamini said.

[/ QUOTE ]

It took Allah almost 22 years to retaliate??? Sounds like Allah isn't as powerful as the Muslims would like use to believe.

[DesertFox]

Hey, Akbar, Allah was just lulling you to sleep, the calm before the storm, and all that. Soon you'll know the word "storm" in a way you never faintly suspected.

You'll know you know by the stench in your drawers.

[MaximumSam]

Reading into God, a favorite hobby for the koran-wielding cult of cross-dressers.

Now Pat Robertson has something in common with these guys.

[DesertFox]

You too, Sam.

[2nd_Amendment]

Yeah, his death squads are out there killing innocents and flying jumbo jets into buildings all the time.

[Warlady]

Sam the only similarities I see is that the behavior of the Iraqis is as pathetic as the left. Have you seen the posts over at DU?

[Suzie]

Has anyone else heard that the guy on the shuttle was one of the Israeli pilots who bombed the nuke reactor in Iraq? Is this true?

[DesertFox]

Be afraid, Saddamn. Be very afraid.

[Incident_command]

I have heard it a few times today. After hearing this guys BIO he seemed like a great aviator. This is as they said a bad day.

[MaximumSam]

You too, Sam.

Yes, I am always calling this and that God's way of punishing people.

Yeah, his death squads are out there killing innocents and flying jumbo jets into buildings all the time.

I didn't realize Al Quaeda was actually an Iraqi death squad.

Sam the only similarities I see is that the behavior of the Iraqis is as pathetic as the left. Have you seen the posts over at DU?

No. I can only make time for one message board anymore, and Freecon is it /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif.

[Warlady]

Sam I believe he was referring to the Iraqi death squads. Remember them? Are you defending Iraq? Are you defending Iraq's comments regarding the shuttle? I don't believe Pat Robertson said he was happy about 911. The Iraqis praised Al Qaeda for 911. To rejoice that the shuttle blew up is pure evil. There are no similarities in what Robertson said and what the Iraqis said. Please stop it.

[DesertFox]

Yeah, Sam, your idea of ironic humor isn't eliciting many laughs.

[Gone_with_the_Wind]

[ QUOTE ]
Immediate popular reaction in Baghdad on Saturday to the loss of the U.S. space shuttle Columbia and its seven-member crew -- including the first Israeli in space -- was that its was God's retribution on Americans.

[/ QUOTE ]

Shall we show them what God's retribution on Iraqis looks like?

[The_Finman]

[ QUOTE ]
Warlady said:
Sam the only similarities I see is that the behavior of the Iraqis is as pathetic as the left. Have you seen the posts over at DU?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes the responses at the DU are identical as the Iraqi's (actually some were far worse)

The people at the DU are below sub human and the way I feel about them after reading what I read over there today causes thoughts to go through my head that violate every Christian belief that I hold dear.

I have more respect for pond scum than I do for wandering sheds on inhuman debris that inhabit that place.

I personaly would not mind if the people on the DU that wrote some of the things that I read over there today offer themselves up as "human shields" and were annihilated...my only regret would be that if the cost of the munition costs more than one cent, it would be worth more than their sorry existence.

I'm sorry if I offended anyone, but human life is valuable and from what I read over there, it could not have been written by human beings.

[The_RANDy_Corporation]

Sam's choice: Someone is moving in next door to him. Which would he prefer it be, Saddam of Pat Robertson.

Betcha a dollar he avoids answering.

[Warlady]

[ QUOTE ]
Suzie said:
Has anyone else heard that the guy on the shuttle was one of the Israeli pilots who bombed the nuke reactor in Iraq? Is this true?

[/ QUOTE ]

Apparently so Suzie.

[ QUOTE ]

The space shuttle that broke up today carried, for the first time ever, a Mideastern astronaut, an Israeli who won fame when he led a daring raid on a nuclear reactor in Iraq, 20 years ago. The shuttle broke up over the president's home state, Texas. The center of the debris field appears to be a little town called Palestine.

[/ QUOTE ]

web page (http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/pnoonan/?id=110003014)

[MaximumSam]

Sam's choice: Someone is moving in next door to him. Which would he prefer it be, Saddam of Pat Robertson.

Without a doubt, Saddam Hussein. I wouldn't have to hear rantings on how I need to be saved from the ACLU, and I probably wouldn't even know what Saddam was talking about. Furthermore, from his current track record, being next to Saddam is a safe place to be. Not only that, but if he got drunk and hurled in my yard, I could beat his ass without much fear of being arrested (at least people here don't support Saddam).

[Warlady]

Finman, DUer's are children of a lesser god.

[Radical-Conservative]

[ QUOTE ]
Warlady said:
Finman, DUer's are children of a lesser god.

[/ QUOTE ]
I seriously doubt they are children of ANY god

[The_Finman]

[ QUOTE ]
Warlady said:
Finman, DUer's are children of a lesser god.

[/ QUOTE ]

They don't believe in any God and they have no soul and they aren't children because the engenders being human and what I saw written over there was written by souless inhuman entities that know of no God except evil itself.

[Warlady]

Finman, you missed my little "g".

[Beowulf]

It figures that Iraq would say that. I noticed that the Palestineans gave a condolence phone call to George Bush, offering sympathy to the US families AND that to the Israeli officer's family on board.

It's sad when Iraq has to stoop to such a low level. It's obvious that not all of the Arab world shares the view.

And Iraq wonders why we hate them so much!

[Warlady]

Beowulf, support for the war should increase because of their response. Not very smart of them to say the least.

[oracle]

[ QUOTE ]
The_Finman said:
Yes the responses at the DU are identical as the Iraqi's (actually some were far worse)

The people at the DU are below sub human and the way I feel about them after reading what I read over there today causes thoughts to go through my head that violate every Christian belief that I hold dear.

I have more respect for pond scum than I do for wandering sheds on inhuman debris that inhabit that place.

I personaly would not mind if the people on the DU that wrote some of the things that I read over there today offer themselves up as "human shields" and were annihilated...my only regret would be that if the cost of the munition costs more than one cent, it would be worth more than their sorry existence.

I'm sorry if I offended anyone, but human life is valuable and from what I read over there, it could not have been written by human beings.

[/ QUOTE ]

I read some of the crap over at DU'h and all it did was prove that they should all be put down like any other mad dog would be.

[Suzie]

I think Saddam wants war, I think he want's to be remembered the same way Hitler is.

[Warlady]

He seems to want war. Otherwise he would disarm as he agreed to do. God doesn't get vengeance on innocent people. Not my God anyway. Their "Allah" seems to be obsessed with killing. Their statements exemplify the very evilness and blackness and hatred that consumes their hearts.

This was a tragic mechanical failure I imagine. NASA has a near perfect record. Only 2 crashes in 17 years plus the Apollo. (All three occurred during the last week of January btw)

[The_RANDy_Corporation]

Well, Sam tries to be funny. You were a lot smarter before you went to OSU Sam. If you want, I'll sue 'em for you for your money back.

[MaximumSam]

Well, you didn't ask the most intelligent question.

[Warlady]

Sam, I don't think anyone asked you a question.

[MaximumSam]

Randy said: Sam's choice: Someone is moving in next door to him. Which would he prefer it be, Saddam of Pat Robertson.

[Longhorn_Platinum]

[ QUOTE ]
MaximumSam said:
Well, you didn't ask the most intelligent question.

[/ QUOTE ]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon115.gif <font color="blue">I thought it was an excellent question.</font>

[Warlady]

Ah sorry. I missed that. Your answer is astonishing.

[MaximumSam]

Well, you are welcome to answer too.

[rbisrb2]

Soon it will be the Iraqi's that will have fire raining down from the sky, and they will see the vengence of the True God's Blessed Nation, the Nation that was founded upon Religious freedom, the Nation that named JESUS CHRIST the maker of it until the 20th century. The Nation that has gone to the aid to afflicted and disposed for over 100 years now. The kindest nation ever to exist, except for those few here that are on the left of Sam. And may we remake the new Iraq in OUR image of RELIGIOUS freedom, and a constitution that mirrors ours. It is time to make that change instead of just rebuilding a nation that will hate us like our track record is so far.

[Warlady]

Sam it's eerie that you would prefer to have someone as your neighbor who has his enemies ears surgically removed, has murdered over 40 of his own family members, gasses his own people, men women and children alike...doesn't make a damn to him, praised Bin Laden for killing 3,000 Americans on 911 over an American Christian who has never once threatened harm to anyone. I don't believe I would like living in your neighborhood.

[Chris]

He has "progressive" tunnel vision. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tinhat.gif

[Warlady]

Chris I just can't relate to that kind of thinking.

[Chris]

You and me both, but I do recognize it. It's "anything to be contrary". Bratty little kids do it all the time. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[MaximumSam]

Sam it's eerie that you would prefer to have someone as your neighbor who has his enemies ears surgically removed, has murdered over 40 of his own family members, gasses his own people, men women and children alike...doesn't make a damn to him, praised Bin Laden for killing 3,000 Americans on 911 over an American Christian who has never once threatened harm to anyone. I don't believe I would like living in your neighborhood.

Do you honestly think Saddam Hussein would be cutting up his own family and gassing people if he lived next to me? Of course not. While people go out of their way to characterize Hussein (and lots of other people) as totally evil human beings, I think Hussein is more of a product of his circumstances. If he was born an average nobody in America, he would probably still be an average nobody right now. He might even be pleasant - who knows what a person would be like when not corrupted by the temptations he has. Regardless, Pat Robertson is a known quantity, and I think he would still be evil even if he lived next to me. I wouldn't trust him to watch my cat. So I'd pick Saddam as a neighbor. I know there is the 'pick the evil you know' argument, but I think Saddam, as an American, would never be any worse than Pat Robertson anyway.

[MaximumSam]

You and me both, but I do recognize it. It's "anything to be contrary". Bratty little kids do it all the time.

I would hate to be your kid if they get called bratty every time they thought about something.

[Chris]

[ QUOTE ]
MaximumSam said:
I would hate to be your kid if they get called bratty every time they thought about something.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't say they were bratty for thinking, and I didn't say I as talking about my kids, but nice try Maxi. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[rbisrb2]

Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

This verse sums up Sham in total!

[aresian]

Let's remember a couple of things....

1) What would you expect Iraqis would say? One quote was by a "government employee" and remember that Western journalists always have a minder nearby listening in on what Iraqis are saying to them. If I knew the answer to a question would see myself and my family being tortured and killed I'm giving the answer that I know that Uncle Saddam wants.

2) During the day I've been sluming over at DU to see what they're saying and for the most part there is grief for the astronauts and their families. Where they get silly is taking this (and every other opportunity) to bash Bush and make outrageous attacks. But then again I know some conservatives who would have taken the opportunity to do the same to Clinton if this had happened four years ago. (Never thought I'd come close to defending DUers.)

[CaliGirl]

[ QUOTE ]
Suzie said:
Has anyone else heard that the guy on the shuttle was one of the Israeli pilots who bombed the nuke reactor in Iraq? Is this true?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have heard the same and read it in his bio.

[Gone_with_the_Wind]

[ QUOTE ]
But then again I know some conservatives who would have taken the opportunity to do the same to Clinton if this had happened four years ago.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who??? Name a conservative that would have taken a tragedy like this and make it into an opportunity to bash Clinton.

What conservative bashed Clinton for the Oklahoma City bombing? I certainly can't remember any. Refresh my memory. Because I'm having a really hard time understanding why anybody, even the Iraqis, would do this. What is it? Is it something with the genes?

[CaliGirl]

[ QUOTE ]
Gone_with_the_Wind said:

[ QUOTE ]
Re:aresian: But then again I know some conservatives who would have taken the opportunity to do the same to Clinton if this had happened four years ago.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who??? Name a conservative that would have taken a tragedy like this and make it into an opportunity to bash Clinton.

What conservative bashed Clinton for the Oklahoma City bombing? I certainly can't remember any. Refresh my memory. Because I'm having a really hard time understanding why anybody, even the Iraqis, would do this. What is it? Is it something with the genes?

[/ QUOTE ]

Gone,

You forgot about all the other bombings Clinton did without letting the American people know about? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon127.gif

[Gone_with_the_Wind]

[ QUOTE ]
Gone,
You forgot about all the other bombings Clinton did without letting the American people know about?


[/ QUOTE ]

You're comparing this disaster to bombing tents in the desert??? We're talking about a national (include the Israelis, and you have an international) tragedy that is completely out of the hands of the president.

And Oklahoma City bombing... had nothing to do with Clinton and I don't recall any conservative that blamed that on Clinton. Who blamed Clinton for that??? What sicko blamed Clinton for that???? The only person(s) who blamed "Clinton" per se were the bombers themselves; And their anger was a generalized hatred towards the government. They were sickos and thank God we've got the death penalty for sickos like that.

[2nd_Amendment]

Actually, Gone, a great many people questioned the convenient timing of OKC. Just as the militia movement was gathering steam and Klinton and his cronies were starting to sweat along came McVeigh and OKC. Boom, a large portion of the militia either dropped out or went underground thanks to the media and Klinton's playing up of McVeigh's(quietly admitted to be non-existent) militia ties.

[aresian]

[ QUOTE ]
Gone_with_the_Wind said:
[ QUOTE ]
But then again I know some conservatives who would have taken the opportunity to do the same to Clinton if this had happened four years ago.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who??? Name a conservative that would have taken a tragedy like this and make it into an opportunity to bash Clinton.

What conservative bashed Clinton for the Oklahoma City bombing? I certainly can't remember any. Refresh my memory. Because I'm having a really hard time understanding why anybody, even the Iraqis, would do this. What is it? Is it something with the genes?

[/ QUOTE ]

Remember that when I brought up some conservatives would have done the same thing to Clinton I'm talking about how DUers are going after Bush on this and not about Iraqis. No nationally known conservatives would have done it, but I'm talking about some of our nuttier brothern who have access to the net like DUers have access to the net.

I don't know about you, but I did and have heard from some conservatives that believe that Clinton used OKC as an excuse to pass laws that would weaken our freedoms. (You know the same rhetoric we hear from the Left now about Bush and Ashcroft.) After a quick Google I'll just point out one article at theFirearms Education Institute (http://www.feinet.org/fei_editorial_2.shtml). By the way I'm a strong supporter of Second Amendment rights and I'm only trying to make the point that we have our nuts on the Right just as the Left does.

[CaliGirl]

Gone,

I posted this all wrong, sorry. It's not what I meant. Didn't mean to confuse the issue. Again, I am sorry.

I haven't been here in a while and the new quotes are sorta unclear to me.

[Gone_with_the_Wind]

I don't recall those accusations coming from conservatives and I ran a conservative discussion board at the time. I had some pretty vitriolic conservatives on that discussion board, but none blamed Clinton for the Oklahoma City bombing. They didn't like the way he handled it, but they didn't blame him for it.

[Gone_with_the_Wind]

Cali, Don't mind me...I'm just super disgusted with anybody who is changing this into bashing fest of our president. I have an intense hatred for anybody who makes this particular event into an opportunity to bash W. I would have an intense hatred for anybody, including conservatives who would take a national tragedy of this type and make it into an opportunity to bash any president that was in office.

I have lost any sympathy I had at all for those so-called "innocent Iraqis", and I'm beginning to think nothing would please me more than to rain fire on their heads right now.

And as far as DU goes... they are just plain genetically malformed-- I've decided it's something from birth. Their brains misfire...whatever...

I've never been over at DU... but from what I'm reading here about them... I'd spill the most vitriolic hatred out on them that anybody could conceive.

[CaliGirl]

Gone,

I can read you are really upset tonight with all the bashing of GW. I am too! I was just over at DU and had to leave because of their psychopath reasoning behind today. I wanted to vomit on what they think the reason is behind the shuttle today. It's like they are all brain dead and are thinking from their pompous patooties!

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I call Iraqi destruction a success! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon133.gif

[Gone_with_the_Wind]

There comes a point where there is no limit to dem stupidity. When liberals get that stupid, I'm in for the kill.

I once said during the presidential elections that if there was a national tragedy and we all went starving for food, medicine and shelter... I'd make all dems go to the back of the line and run out of services just about the time that one of them were to get relief.

[Warlady]

Sam your thought processes are really twisted. What difference does it make if Saddam would be different if he was an American? That has zero do with the question RANDy asked you. Your choice was to choose between Saddam Hussein (the real one) and Pat Robertson. You chose Saddam (the one we know warts and all) a brutal, torturing, murdering, dictator to Roberston. That is f**ked up.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Libs are f**ked up. I am like Gone in that I am so fed up with the hatred that comes from the Libs. They are trying to help our enemies (Saddam, terrorists, Germany and France, and so on) to destroy our country. They are ripping apart our nation with all their bashing of W and our own country. I wonder if the Libs have some secret deal with the leftists in the world to bring down our nation. I really wouldn't put it past any of them.

[Sean]

[ QUOTE ]
IC called that one right! I wonder if Sean thinks this is a disgusting thing to say.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, he didn't. Your memory fails. He mentioned "dancing" and he mentioned "Muslim nations".

And yes, I do.

So, we have IC, an Iraqi "government employee", and a car mechanic all demonstrating thier penchant for saying disgusting and stupid things.

What bothers me is broad generalizations. I don't like them because I consider them to be the same as lying to me.

Undoubtably many Iraqis harbor some satisfaction over this. We've had our boot on the Iraqi throat for how many years now? Thirteen?
We've been bombing them pretty much continuously since then. And regardless of the truth, the internal propaganda blames all thier poverty and death on us.
Yet more than one "on the ground" documentary reveals that in general the Iraqi people have no real hatred for Americans. They hate the American government but like and admire the people.

That's reality.

So, is it fair to say "Iraqis Call Shuttle Disaster God's Vengeance"?
As far as the linked article goes it would be more accurate to say "TWO Iraqis call....."

There's no question that some religious fundamentals will say this is Gods' vengence for homosexuality and removing religion from schools.
I'm sure I could find a couple in no time flat.
Would it be right for me to indicate in foreign locales that "Americans think shuttle was Gods' vengence for homosexuality and removing lords prayer from schools"?? Or would that be disgusting and stupid?

Why can't people just take a tragedy for what it is and grieve it rather than twist it for thier own divisive purposes?

[Longhorn_Platinum]

[ QUOTE ]
MaximumSam said:
Do you honestly think Saddam Hussein would be cutting up his own family and gassing people if he lived next to me? Of course not.

[/ QUOTE ]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon115.gif <font color="blue">Sam has such a calming effect on people. He'd be doing the world a favor by moving next door to Saddam Hussein.</font>

[Sean]

[ QUOTE ]
Wlady: Are you defending Iraq's comments regarding the shuttle?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're talking about the "government employee" and the "car mechanic" here? I didn't realize they could be considered to be "Iraq".

Well boyz, guess the gig is up. Saddam is secretly a car mechanic!

[ QUOTE ]
The Iraqis praised Al Qaeda for 911.

[/ QUOTE ]

We're still talking about the car mechanic? Just checking...

[ QUOTE ]
To rejoice that the shuttle blew up is pure evil.

[/ QUOTE ]

What would you consider rejoicing in a war with Iraq in which innocent people will die be?
Patriotism?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

[ QUOTE ]
Sam has such a calming effect on people. He'd be doing the world a favor by moving next door to Saddam Hussein.

[/ QUOTE ]
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

He's got a few others on this board that could go with him. (The lefties that love us here)

[Longhorn_Platinum]

[ QUOTE ]
Gone_with_the_Wind said:
[ QUOTE ]
But then again I know some conservatives who would have taken the opportunity to do the same to Clinton if this had happened four years ago.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who??? Name a conservative that would have taken a tragedy like this and make it into an opportunity to bash Clinton.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://mysmilies.com/cwmb/default/old.gif <font color="blue">I seem to recall that Bubba used Oklahoma City as an opportunity to bash Rush Limbaugh.</font>

[Sean]

[ QUOTE ]
Beowulf, support for the war should increase because of their response. Not very smart of them to say the least.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good God. What are we missing here? Do we have pictures of vast numbers of Iraqis dancing in the streets? Has there been a poll that indicates some significant percentage of Iraqis are happy about this and feel it's Gods retribution?
Warlady I took you for much smarter than this...to be suckered by the media so easily.

[Sean]

[ QUOTE ]
rbisrb2: Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

[/ QUOTE ]

Kind of like calling Iraqis evil?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

The Iraqis that support Saddam and Saddam himself are evil. No question. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon62.gif

[Sean]

You can't make that determination about "The Iraqis that support Saddam".
Many Iraqis support thier president without knowing all there is to know about him. Many support him because they are afraid to do otherwise.
The word "evil" is being tossed around too much these days.

The Iraqi people have nothing against American citizens. Why do so many American citizens around here seem to have something against the Iraqi people?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Well, Sean...

If you are so unhappy with the people here, you always have DU to go to. I'm sure you'd fit right in.

[Incident_command]

Ok Sean lets get into it since you want to bow up over this. My comment was, I WONDER if they would be dancing in the streets not they will be. Remember back to 9/11 and I think you will remember the video of those fine folks celebrating the disaster.That incident was far worse than yesterday so why was I stupid to say what I did. My comment came from a track record not a hunch. You wanna get into insults have at it.And if you think this goverment employee is not directly accountable to the head madman and speaks without his blessing guess again.You dont run off at the mouth in Bagdad and get away with it.I would wager a weeks pay you will not see this goverment employee chastised over his remark.

[DesertFox]

The Iraqi people have nothing against American citizens.

How do you know?

[Suzie]

[ QUOTE ]
DesertFox said:
The Iraqi people have nothing against American citizens.

How do you know?

[/ QUOTE ]

OH come on DF, they are just burning our flag in the streets to keep warm. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Suzie, DesertFox was responding to Sean's comment. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[2nd_Amendment]

I believe Mods and Admins who have been here a couple years can figure things out without assistance. Now, can you figure out Suz was making a sarcastic reply pointed towards Sean?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you honestly think Saddam Hussein would be cutting up his own family and gassing people if he lived next to me? Of course not. While people go out of their way to characterize Hussein (and lots of other people) as totally evil human beings, I think Hussein is more of a product of his circumstances. If he was born an average nobody in America, he would probably still be an average nobody right now. He might even be pleasant - who knows what a person would be like when not corrupted by the temptations he has. Regardless, Pat Robertson is a known quantity, and I think he would still be evil even if he lived next to me. I wouldn't trust him to watch my cat. So I'd pick Saddam as a neighbor. I know there is the 'pick the evil you know' argument, but I think Saddam, as an American, would never be any worse than Pat Robertson anyway. - Maximum Sam

[/ QUOTE ]

Sam that is the ultimate equivalence falsehood that I have ever seen.

Sadam Hussein was a hitman, for crying outloud! That you suppose him to be merely a product of his environment is outdated thinking, not to mention naive. There are plenty of hitmen in this country that grew up in middle class environs, thank you. Sadam is an evil, malicious shanker on the Earths sphincter otherwise known as Iraq, and he got that way because of the choices he has made.

No, I wouldnt want to live next door to PAt Robertson, but he is a damned sight lot better than living next door to a professional murderer.

It is truly amazing what somepeople will say for a polemical advantage.

Not one of your better moments, IMNSHO, Sam.

[ QUOTE ]

rbisrb2: Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Sean - Kind of like calling Iraqis evil?


[/ QUOTE ]


So, Sean, that question implies that the Iraqui's are good, since the point of rbisrb2's post was that it is wrong to call good evil. So a man who has given aid, resources, protection, facilities, funding, etc, to the organization that carried out the worst terrorist act in this nations history, and the worst casualties since the Civil War, this man who hates us so, who is doing his level best to cause harm to this country and death and suffering to our people; this man is 'good' to you?

Your a real POS, Sean.

[Suzie]

[ QUOTE ]
SouthernGal said:
Suzie, DesertFox was responding to Sean's comment. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Just trying to help DF translate what goes on in Sean's pointy little head.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

One can see you are a really nice guy, 2A.

Sorry for the mistake, Suzie. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[DesertFox]

Well said, rglencheek.

[Warlady]

[ QUOTE ]
Sean said:
[ QUOTE ]
IC called that one right! I wonder if Sean thinks this is a disgusting thing to say.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, he didn't. Your memory fails. He mentioned "dancing" and he mentioned "Muslim nations".

And yes, I do.

So, we have IC, an Iraqi "government employee", and a car mechanic all demonstrating thier penchant for saying disgusting and stupid things.

What bothers me is broad generalizations. I don't like them because I consider them to be the same as lying to me.

Undoubtably many Iraqis harbor some satisfaction over this. We've had our boot on the Iraqi throat for how many years now? Thirteen?
We've been bombing them pretty much continuously since then. And regardless of the truth, the internal propaganda blames all thier poverty and death on us.
Yet more than one "on the ground" documentary reveals that in general the Iraqi people have no real hatred for Americans. They hate the American government but like and admire the people.

That's reality.

So, is it fair to say "Iraqis Call Shuttle Disaster God's Vengeance"?
As far as the linked article goes it would be more accurate to say "TWO Iraqis call....."

There's no question that some religious fundamentals will say this is Gods' vengence for homosexuality and removing religion from schools.
I'm sure I could find a couple in no time flat.
Would it be right for me to indicate in foreign locales that "Americans think shuttle was Gods' vengence for homosexuality and removing lords prayer from schools"?? Or would that be disgusting and stupid?

Why can't people just take a tragedy for what it is and grieve it rather than twist it for thier own divisive purposes?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sean, are you trying to imply that Saddam would not agree with the sentiments of these two Iraqis in the interview? They are saying what Saddam wants to hear. Surely you know Saddam's sentiments by now. It's not rocket science. Yes we have been bombing them for years but whose fault is that? If Saddam had cooperated with the inspectors from day one and disarmed as many countries have done this would not be the case. Saddam is to blame for all of it. He takes the oil for food money and builds palaces and WMD. He hates America because we and GB enforce the agreement HE signed. All he had to do was cooperate and disarm. The same holds today. He could avoid war just by saying okay I will tell you where all my WMD are and help in destroying them or show proof that he has done it himself. Why is it the left says contain him but then balk when we do what is necessary to do that?

The Iraqi people fear Saddam because they have seen what happens when you speak your own mind. I hope you have watched interviews with political refugees who have escaped and come to this country. Did you happen to see "Saddam's Bomb Maker" and "Saddam's Arsenal" on the History channel? Shocking.

[MaximumSam]

Warlady,

Sam your thought processes are really twisted. What difference does it make if Saddam would be different if he was an American? That has zero do with the question RANDy asked you. Your choice was to choose between Saddam Hussein (the real one) and Pat Robertson. You chose Saddam (the one we know warts and all) a brutal, torturing, murdering, dictator to Roberston. That is f**ked up.

Well, if we took the real Saddam, he would be arrested within 20 minutes of moving next to me, and therefore, I would no neighbor, which is infinitely better than having Pat Robertson as a neighbor. Therefore, I still pick Saddam. I didn't ask the question.

[BuckeyeMike]

Saddam is a "product of his circumstances"? What circumstances?
And if this is true, why cannot Pat Robertson be a "product of HIS circumstances" too?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, if we took the real Saddam, he would be arrested within 20 minutes of moving next to me, and therefore, I would no neighbor

[/ QUOTE ]

Saddam would be dead within 20 seconds (maybe less) if he moved next door to me.

[DesertFox]

Sam's just twisting to avoid a question he doesn't want to answer. Most of us have done that at some time or other. We all know what the real answer would be.

Sam does try to make sense and he is honest; he's just a confused puppy.

Sean, OTOH, appears inaccessible to reason.

[Gone_with_the_Wind]

[ QUOTE ]
I seem to recall that Bubba used Oklahoma City as an opportunity to bash Rush Limbaugh.


[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't know Bubba was a conservative. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

[MaximumSam]

Sadam Hussein was a hitman, for crying outloud!

Here, he was also a law student. Anyway, he would probably like to fancy himself a 'revolutionary.' Don't try and tell me that Iraq, or the Middle East, has the exact same systems and values that we do in America. Saddam got caught up in a revolution, assumed power, and does everything he can to hold onto it. Has he killed people? Yes. Is he evil? Who knows. But if he were born in America rather than the Middle East, his life would obviously be different. He might grow up to be a Muslim version of Pat Robertson - evil, yet without all the violence.

That you suppose him to be merely a product of his environment is outdated thinking, not to mention naive.

Oh please. That hardly even deserves a response. Of course, people make their own choices, and I have never agreed that people have no choice, but you are confusing that notion with the simple fact that people in different countries have different choices about their lives. Pat Robertson would never be a hitman in America, but had he been born in Afghanistan, things would have been different. Or do you really think that potential dictators are only born in other countries?

Not one of your better moments, IMNSHO, Sam.

I think I would have to turn the tables on you. You cannot equate 'product of the system' with 'product of the culture.' Saddam made choices that Pat Robertson never had. That doesn't make Pat Robertson a better person. He still makes all the wrong choices that he does have.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

What do you have against Pat Robertson, Sam? You seem very angry with him. Also, do you like Saddam because he was a law student at one time like you? Just curious.

[DesertFox]

The system IS the culture. Read Samuel P. Huntington, Sam.

[DoctorDoom]

[ QUOTE ]
While people go out of their way to characterize Hussein (and lots of other people) as totally evil human beings, I think Hussein is more of a product of his circumstances.

[/ QUOTE ]
If that moral-relativism bullshit is what they're teaching at OSU, the taxpayers of Ohio are being shamelessly raped.

Sham is apparently oblivious to the real world beyond the liberal cesspool of academia, where there are people who are profoundly, irrefutably and irrevocably evil by nature. The same throroughly asinine "argument" could be made for Adolph Hitler, and it would be no more rational.

[ QUOTE ]
If he was born an average nobody in America, he would probably still be an average nobody right now. He might even be pleasant - who knows what a person would be like when not corrupted by the temptations he has.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's utter nonsense. But, since the "argument is two-directional, we may also suppose that were sham born in Sodamn Insane's place, he'd now be murdering his family, torturing prisoners and gassing hundreds of thousands of his fellow citizens.

[ QUOTE ]
Regardless, Pat Robertson is a known quantity...

[/ QUOTE ]
And obviously, Saddam isn't a "known quantity" to sham, despite years of incontrovertible evidence of what an inhuman monster he is. OSU is apparently one of those hyper-leftist campuses where Saddam is lionized.

[ QUOTE ]
... and I think he would still be evil even if he lived next to me.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sham's definition of evil is classically liberal. Anyone who stands up for what's right and opposes what's wrong is "evil" to liberals, who, as we all know, are utterly devoid of moral and ethical standards.

[ QUOTE ]
So I'd pick Saddam as a neighbor. I know there is the 'pick the evil you know' argument, but I think Saddam, as an American, would never be any worse than Pat Robertson anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]
Since Saddam is NOT An American, sham's "argument" is utterly irrelevant. I'd love to be in court when lawyer sham tries that sort of "defense" for his client.

What a person does when he knows he will not be punished defines what he is. What Saddam does is a matter of record, and he has proven himself to be the very spawn of hell.

And, what Pat Robertson does is also a matter of record. Comparing the two and pronouncing Robertson worse does nothing to enhance Sham's credibility.

[MaximumSam]

Sham is apparently oblivious to the real world beyond the liberal cesspool of academia, where there are people who are profoundly, irrefutably and irrevocably evil by nature. The same throroughly asinine "argument" could be made for Adolph Hitler, and it would be no more rational.


Please, then, try to combat the rationality of it. Of course, since you have no argument, you have to attack colleges, students, and everyone else in the world who actually thinks about issues rather than blindly following whatever they are told.

That's utter nonsense. But, since the "argument is two-directional, we may also suppose that were sham born in Sodamn Insane's place, he'd now be murdering his family, torturing prisoners and gassing hundreds of thousands of his fellow citizens.

You can suppose whatever you want. Knowing what I know of Pat Robertson, my guess is that he would be killing his mother and torturing prisoners in the name of family values. Anything can look right with the proper spin on it.

Since Saddam is NOT An American, sham's "argument" is utterly irrelevant. I'd love to be in court when lawyer sham tries that sort of "defense" for his client.

Hmm, doesn't that make the question itself irrelevant, too. Maybe you should have gone to a liberal cesspool university too, Dr. Doom, to learn a little bit of critical thinking. You claim to have some great argument, but so far, you have attacked me, my school, and apparently RANDy for asking a dumb question. Can you actually defend your position without acting like a three year old?

What a person does when he knows he will not be punished defines what he is. What Saddam does is a matter of record, and he has proven himself to be the very spawn of hell.

Absolutely!!!! This basically repeats what I have been saying concisely and accurately.

And, what Pat Robertson does is also a matter of record. Comparing the two and pronouncing Robertson worse does nothing to enhance Sham's credibility.

Yes!!! So the real issue is what choices do they make, not what choices are they presented with. That's the key to the whole argument, so address that.

[MaximumSam]

Southern Gal,

What do you have against Pat Robertson, Sam? You seem very angry with him. Also, do you like Saddam because he was a law student at one time like you? Just curious.

I thoroughly dislike Pat Robertson because he plays on people's ignorances and beliefs and converts them into a comfortable living a powerful base. He is like a mini-dictator, without the power. I don't 'like' Saddam in any way, and any defense of him is solely for this thread only.

The system IS the culture. Read Samuel P. Huntington, Sam

I have, and he's great, but glen was comparing growing up in the slums of Detroit to growing up in the Middle East. Even gang leaders only have a very limited circle of influence compared to someone like Saddam, but that doesn't make Saddam, who has killed hundreds (or more) inherently more evil than a gang leader, who may have killed five.

[Warlady]

Doc is right Sam. You are trying to make Saddam into something other than what he is to justify your choice. That's ludicrous.

[Gone_with_the_Wind]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't 'like' Saddam in any way, and any defense of him is solely for this thread only.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does this mean you're admitting to trolling for the sake of this thread? Why Sam, I didn't think you have in ya to admit to such a thing... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[MaximumSam]

GWTW,

Does this mean you're admitting to trolling for the sake of this thread? Why Sam, I didn't think you have in ya to admit to such a thing...

I think you need a better definition of 'trolling.' Trolling is trying to disrupt a board or its members with name calling and vacuous arguments. Trolling is not discussing matters intelligently. Furthermore, when I say 'in relation to this thread,' I mean in comparison to Pat Robertson.

[MaximumSam]

Doc is right Sam. You are trying to make Saddam into something other than what he is to justify your choice. That's ludicrous.

No I haven't. He makes unscrupulous decisions, just like Pat Robertson.

[Gone_with_the_Wind]

You're asking to define "is"????

That technique doesn't work with conservatives Sam.

[MaximumSam]

I'm asking to define trolling.

[Warlady]

Trolling is taking an opposing viewpoint that you don't adhere to simply for the sake of arguing.

Sam murdering and torturing thousands of people is a tad more than unscrupulous. What unscrupulous decisions has Pat Robertson made?

[Gone_with_the_Wind]

No...you're adopting Bubba's technique of defining the obvious to get out of a tough spot, Sam. Com'on Sam... try harder... you're slipping.

[Warlady]

Gone it's called leftie spin. I sometimes refer to it as irrational thought.

[oracle]

[ QUOTE ]
Sean said:
You're talking about the "government employee" and the "car mechanic" here? I didn't realize they could be considered to be "Iraq".

Well boyz, guess the gig is up. Saddam is secretly a car mechanic!

[/ QUOTE ]

Haven't you learned that no one in Iraq speaks to a reporter without a government handler being present?

Any comments that are given to the media, especially when the speaker is named, can be assumed to have been blessed by the Iraqi Government.

[Gone_with_the_Wind]

Have you seen that Jack-in-a-Box commercial with Jack (the clown head) trying to order in Spanish??? His mouth is drawn in a squiggly knot. That's Sam. Sam's mouth is all squigglybigglygiggly...

Like the fastfood clerk, do we get to say, "get outta here" now?

[DoctorDoom]

[ QUOTE ]
Please, then, try to combat the rationality of it. Of course, since you have no argument, you have to attack colleges, students, and everyone else in the world who actually thinks about issues rather than blindly following whatever they are told.

[/ QUOTE ]
It HAS no rationality, ergo it cannot be combatted.

[ QUOTE ]
Of course, since you have no argument, you have to attack colleges...

[/ QUOTE ]
I cited OSU in the belief that no one could not be so utterly clueless without indoctrination. However, if you are willing to absolve OSU of guilt and admit that your obliviousness to reality is your willful choice, I'm amenable to that.

[ QUOTE ]
... everyone else in the world who actually thinks about issues rather than blindly following whatever they are told.

[/ QUOTE ]
If your lame-ass "argument" re Saddam as an American is your concept of "thinking", the prosecution rests.

[ QUOTE ]
You can suppose whatever you want. Knowing what I know of Pat Robertson, my guess is that he would be killing his mother and torturing prisoners in the name of family values.

[/ QUOTE ]
You know exactly nothing about him, else you wouldn't be making such an unfathomably despicable assertion. But, I'll chalk it up to your liberal bias against Christians.

[ QUOTE ]
Hmm, doesn't that make the question itself irrelevant, too. Maybe you should have gone to a liberal cesspool university too, Dr. Doom, to learn a little bit of critical thinking.

[/ QUOTE ]
I thank God without ceasing that I never polluted myself with the toxic waste that you define as "critical thinking".

[ QUOTE ]
You claim to have some great argument, but so far, you have attacked me, my school, and apparently RANDy for asking a dumb question. Can you actually defend your position without acting like a three year old?

[/ QUOTE ]
No "great argument" is needed to refute your asinine hypothesis. Your logical fallacies are obvious to anyone except "critical thinkers". A particularly egregious fallacy: presupposing the validity of a premise and then basing the conclusion on its validity.

Premise 1: if Saddam Hussein were American, he would be a pussycat.
Premise 2: if Pat Robertson were Iraqi, he "would be killing his mother and torturing prisoners in the name of family values."
Conclusion: Pat Robertson is therefore more evil than Saddam Hussein.

That's "critical thinking"? A conclusion based on two ludicrous, shamelessly biased, utterly unsupportable opinions? Sue your college. It's failing you miserably.

[ QUOTE ]
Yes!!! So the real issue is what choices do they make, not what choices are they presented with. That's the key to the whole argument, so address that.

[/ QUOTE ]
We HAVE been addressing that, but when you are in Troll Mode (which is almost always), you ignore opposing views.

What choices DO They make?

Saddam's "choices":

[ QUOTE ]
The dossier's introduction:

Iraq is a terrifying place to live. People are in constant fear of being denounced as opponents of the regime.

They are encouraged to report on the activities of family and neighbours. The security services can strike at any time. Arbitrary arrests and killings are commonplace.

Between three and four million Iraqis, about 15% of the population, have fled their homeland rather than live under Saddam Hussein's regime.

These grave violations of human rights are not the work of a number of overzealous individuals but the deliberate policy of the regime.

Fear is Saddam's chosen method for staying in power. This report, based on the testimony of Iraqi exiles, evidence gathered by UN rapporteurs and human rights organisations, and intelligence material, describes the human cost of Saddam Hussein's control of Iraq.

[snip]

On torture:

Torture is systematic in Iraq. The most senior figures in the regime are personally involved.

[snip]

Saddam has, through the RCC, issued a series of decrees establishing severe penalties (amputation, branding, cutting off of ears, or other forms of mutilation) for criminal offences.

In mid-2000, the RCC approved amputation of the tongue as a new penalty for slander or abusive remarks about the President or his family.

These punishments are practised mainly on political dissenters. Iraqi TV has broadcast pictures of these punishments as a warning to others.

According to an Amnesty International report published in August 2001, "torture is used systematically against political detainees. The scale and severity of torture in Iraq can only result from the acceptance of its use at the highest level."

Over the years, Amnesty and other human rights organisations have received thousands of reports of torture and interviewed numerous torture victims.

Although Iraqi law forbids the practice of torture, the British Government is not aware of a single case of an Iraqi official suspected of carrying out torture being brought to justice.

[snip]

Treatment of women and children:

Under Saddam Huseein's regime women lack even the basic right to life. A 1990 decree allows male relatives to kill a female relative in the name of honour without punishment.

Women have been tortured, ill-treated and in some cases summarily executed too, according to Amnesty International.

The dossier says that BBC correspondent John Sweeney said he had met six witnesses with direct experience of child torture, including the crushing of a two-year-old girl's feet.

Prison conditions:

Conditions for political prisoners in Iraq are inhumane and degrading.

At the "Mahjar" prison "prisoners are beaten twice a day and the women regularly raped by their guards.

Arbitrary and summary killings:

Executions are carried out without due process of law. relatives are often prevented from burying the victims in accordance with Islamic practice and have even been charged for the bullets used.

[snip]

Methods of torture:

Eye gouging
Piercing of hands with electric drill
Suspended from ceiling by their wrists
Electric shock
Sexual abuse
Mock executions
Acid baths

Conclusion:

This dossier does not include every Iraqi's personal story of suffering, caused by Saddam's regime, known to the British Government.

There are sadly far too many to mention them all. But the evidence in the dossier is a faithful representation of what ordinary Iraqis face in their daily lives.

It is no wonder that, according to the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees in 2001, Iraqis have become the second largest group of refugees in the world.

Iraqis also top the table of foreign nationals seeking asylum in the UK.

Saddam Hussein has been ruthless in his treatment of any opposition to him since his rise to power in 1979.

A cruel and callous disregard for human life and suffering remains the hallmark of his regime.

[/ QUOTE ]
Iraq dossier: Key claims at- a-glance (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/2533897.stm)

Pat Robertson's "choices": preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ and stand for righteousness.


To hell with "what if". Deal with "what IS". If you believe that Robertson is more evil than Hussein, then you, sir, are unworthy of a response by any thinking member of this board.


For those interested, the entire 23-page British dossier in PDF format is available here:

UK Iraq dossier: Human rights abuses (http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/middle_east/02/uk_human_rights_dossier_on_iraq/pdf/iraq_human_rights.pdf)

[**DONOTDELETE**]

[ QUOTE ]
I thoroughly dislike Pat Robertson because he plays on people's ignorances and beliefs and converts them into a comfortable living a powerful base.

[/ QUOTE ]

It really sounds as if you have something really personal against Pat Robertson. I may be a conservative but I am not religious. I have heard Pat Robertson talk on TV and he doesn't offend me. What he says appeals to Christians and there's nothing wrong with people being Christian, Sam. If Pat is not attacking you and trying to convert you, then you shouldn't have any problem with him.

As for Saddam, he is trying to attack America and other countries. He wants to be the Godfather of the Middle East. He wants to wipe Israel off the face of the earth. He would love to see the destruction of America. I read where he said that America is an aberration because a country like ours shouldn't have lasted so long.

I think you need to be worrying more about Saddam wanting to kill you than Pat Robertson wanting to kill you.

[rbisrb2]

Trolling is not discussing matters intelligently.

So you're admitting that you are a troll at last!

[Chris]

[ QUOTE ]
Sean said:

No, he didn't. Your memory fails. He mentioned "dancing" and he mentioned "Muslim nations".

[/ QUOTE ]

And, he mentioned wondering if, which is not disgusting and stupid, it's understandable since that's exactly what happened last time. Also, Iraq is a Muslim nation. It's just not lead by Muslim clerics. As for only a car mechanic and whatever, you obviously either haven't been watching, or have conveniently ignored other news reports.

[Chris]

[ QUOTE ]
MaximumSam said:
I don't 'like' Saddam in any way, and any defense of him is solely for this thread only.

[/ QUOTE ]

IOW, anything to be contrary, eh Maxi?

[DoctorDoom]

From the PDF file linked to above in my previous post comes this example of the regime of Saddam, the "good neighbor".

[ QUOTE ]

A Tortured Family : a case brought to the attention of the FCO

A family, arrested in late 2000, were taken to two separate interrogation centres within Republican Guard facilities located along the road to Abu Ghraib. The husband was held in one centre whilst the wife and children were held at a women’s facility. The husband and wife were interrogated under torture about the husband’s sale of a vehicle which, the interrogators said, had been captured by Iraqi security forces during a raid on Iraqi oppositionists.

The interrogators said separately to both husband and wife that they would cease the torture if they signed confessions admitting to be collaborating with the oppositionists. They refused. The wife was stripped naked and cigarettes stubbed out on all parts of her body whenever she refused to implicate her husband. She was beaten and thrown around the interrogation room. Her children were forced to watch the torture. She was eventually released, having been told that her husband would continue being tortured until she returned to confess. She was arrested again two weeks later and the same pattern of torture was repeated, leaving her a psychological wreck.

During his interrogation, the husband’s arms were tied behind his back and he was then suspended in the air using a hook hung from the ceiling. This caused intense pain as his shoulder muscles and ligaments were torn. After a period, the interrogators entered the room and the husband was unhooked and placed in a chair in the middle of the room. From close range, he was then shot at with a pistol whenever he refused to agree to sign his confession. Sometimes shots were fired which missed his body, at other times the pistol muzzle was placed against his fingers, toes or arms and fired so as to mutilate these areas.

Over the following two weeks further interrogations occurred at intervals, following periods of food and water deprivation. Eventually the husband’s and wife’s wider family paid a bribe to an Iraqi Intelligence officer and both the husband and wife were released. They subsequently escaped from Iraq.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd rather have the Mansons as my neighbors, TYVM.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Sam, I want to state first of all how I respect your willingness to play the devil's advocate here. I would admire you for it, except that I think you enjoy it too much, so it cant be considered a virtue for you, heheh.

Sam wrote: [ QUOTE ]

Saddam got caught up in a revolution, assumed power, and does everything he can to hold onto it. Has he killed people? Yes. Is he evil? Who knows.


[/ QUOTE ]

Lord, talk about a telling remark. Yes, Sam, being willing to do everything one can to hold on to power is by definition evil.

Why is it that you leftists can only recognize evil if it is in the USA? And then you still get it wrong half the time.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[ QUOTE ]

But if he were born in America rather than the Middle East, his life would obviously be different. He might grow up to be a Muslim version of Pat Robertson - evil, yet without all the violence.


[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, you have no trouble recognizing a preacher of Christianity as 'evil', but you stumble on murdering dictators who would do anything to hold on to power?

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

And no, Sadam would have been a murderer no matter where he was born, because both those choices are available in both countries. What makes you think that a murderer in one environment wouldnt be a murderer in any other envirnoment? That is purely speculation on your part as the persons choices we do know put the weight of the evidence against you. Your view completely removes the responsability of moral choice from the perpetrator as though human behavior was determined by environment and we know now that there is absolutely no basis in science for such a belief.

That is one of the basic problems with leftists today; they cannot distinguish between innocence and guilt, or between right and wrong, or good and evil. And that is because they have abandoned the source of those truths, and that is Divine revalation.

Sam, read the Bible more, ok? And pay attention this time, heheh.

[ QUOTE ]

Of course, people make their own choices, and I have never agreed that people have no choice, but you are confusing that notion with the simple fact that people in different countries have different choices about their lives. Pat Robertson would never be a hitman in America, but had he been born in Afghanistan, things would have been different.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes things would be different; he would be an Afghani mullah, probably, trying to maintain the peace.

What, Sam, you dont think that these choices between good and evil exist outside the USA? Those wicked Middle East environments only produce hitmen and murderers? But millions of Afghanis live their lives without ever committing murder, and the same is true of Iraquis, so it cant be the environments that make these people murderers or they would all be murderers or at least the predominant number of them would be.

And do you think that residents of the USA can only be good people? I guess you have never watched the Sopranos or heard of Al Capone, Moly Hatchet, or Pee Wee Herman. People do choose to do evil in the USA like anywhere else in the world. In fact, one of the reasons that the USA is so much better off than Afghanistan is that political people in the USA do in fact make the better moral choice more often than leadrs do in Afghanistan or Iraq. If that offends you as it presents America in a good light, sorry, but it is the Truth.

Being born in the Middle East does not free you from the requirement that you make choices between doing good or evil, nor does being born in the USA. And there is no guarrantee that anyone will make the right or wrong choices. That is what being a free moral agent is all about, Sam.

And as the virtuous in both environments have that virtue credited to them, so too does the evil that evil doers merit that culminates in their damnation.

AHve you heard this before? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon127.gif

Heheh, the moral engine behind classic liberalism was this moral sense of outrage at the injustices of the world and the overpowering desire to right those injustices. Without that, liberalism is merely just another system of ideology that makes some feel superior to others, and it can do nothing more than obscure the light of Truth and Progress.

[MaximumSam]

Trolling is taking an opposing viewpoint that you don't adhere to simply for the sake of arguing

Well, I suppose you can define it however you like, but that definition seems to indicate that thinking about issues and approaching them from all sides is somehow wrong (which is a major critique of conservative thought in general). Well, when in Rome...

What unscrupulous decisions has Pat Robertson made?

Here is what he says:

"It is interesting, that termites don't build things, and the great builders of our nation almost to a man have been Christians, because Christians have the desire to build something. He is motivated by love of man and God, so he builds. The people who have come into (our) institutions (today) are primarily termites. They are into destroying institutions that have been built by Christians, whether it is universities, governments, our own traditions, that we have.... The termites are in charge now, and that is not the way it ought to be, and the time has arrived for a godly fumigation."--Pat Robertson, New York Magazine, August 18, 1986

This is what he does:

Another one of Robertson's more notorious business deals is the recently exposed diamond mine case. In this ingenious venture, Robertson saw an opportunity in the country formerly named Zaire (now the Congo) for diamond mines. The former Zaire is a country rich in natural resources, including diamonds, but these resources were thus far being plundered by its (former) dictator, the brutal Mobuto Sese Seko. Mobuto (who recently died of cancer) was one of the world's richest men, while his people lived in grinding poverty. It was often noted that he could have cured all of his country's ills by writing a personal check. Mobuto had been trying to come to the US to try to improve relations, but the State Department refused to grant him a visa, due to his lengthy human rights violations (see the Pat's Dictator Friends page for more info). In all of this, the clever Pat Robertson saw an opportunity. The two became close associates, and Mobuto allowed Pat to open diamond mines in Zaire, under the name of the African Development Company, while Pat tried to persuade the State Department to allow Mobuto entry into the US. Ultimately, it was found out that Pat had been using CBN money and equipment to aid his diamond mining operation in Zaire (see the News page for more details). A good deal for Pat, seeing as he employed people in Zaire for ridiculously low wages, and managed to use CBN's infrastructure to cut costs even more.

Ultimately, one is struck by the constant use of non-profit, donor money used to fund Pat's schemes, and the total lack of ethics that this man has. Anyone thinking about sending money to CBN to "promote the gospel" should definitely take note; chances are that your money will end up being used to increase the fortune of one Marion "Pat" Robertson instead. For even more information on Pat's business practices, I encourage you to check out Rob Boston's book entitled "The Most Dangerous Man in America? Pat Robertson and the Rise of the Christian Coalition," from which some of my information comes.


Pat Robertson (http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/7027/business.html)

Here is another dictator he loves:

In 1991, Zambian President Frederick Chiluba declared his country to be a "Christian nation." When Robertson interviewed Chiluba on the 700 Club, he lamented that no such declaration had occurred in the United States. Robertson told Chiluba, "Your country is a standard for not only Africa but the rest of the world." The Most Dangerous Man in America?, 203. After the interview, Robertson asked the audience, "Wouldn't you love to have someone like that as president of the United States of America?" Ibid.

So what has taken place in Zambia's "Christian nation"? The country is guided by fundamentalist Christianity. People who belong to the Islamic, Hindu, and animistic faiths, which comprise an estimated 25 to 50 percent of the population, were told that they would have to build their own schools, while fundamentalist Christians can inundate the public school system. The state-run radio and television stations will broadcast only fundamentalist Christian programs. All other religions must establish their own facilities. Are these the characteristics of a tolerant "Christian nation"?


More Pat Robertson (http://www.hopeint.org/off/9610-03.htm)

Which begs the simple question - if you support an evil dictator who is not as notorious as Saddam, are you still a good person?

[MaximumSam]

GWTW,

No...you're adopting Bubba's technique of defining the obvious to get out of a tough spot, Sam. Com'on Sam... try harder... you're slipping.

I have no idea what you are talking about. I am simply saying it is dumb to call any disagreement 'trolling.' Why do you care how I really feel about anything - on most issues I am undecided, so it helps to argue them out. If I am undecided, does that mean I'm not allowed to talk about it? Your conclusion makes no sense.

Dr. Doom,

You know exactly nothing about him, else you wouldn't be making such an unfathomably despicable assertion. But, I'll chalk it up to your liberal bias against Christians.

I know that he uses money donated to help people in order to enrich himself (to a tune of about 155 million bucks). He enters into business deals with corrupt dictators with funds that are supposedly spent to help people. He is a liar and a cheat, and he does whatever he can to advance himself. This is amazingly similar to Saddam Hussein.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Excuse me Sam, but those links go to personal web pages and not real news sites. If you want to prove your points about Pat Robertson, you need to supply legitimate news articles written by real news reporters. And it's best to link to a few different sources that are not one sided on this issue.

[DoctorDoom]

Following up, here's an expanded version from the PDF of the the info re tortures that was mentioned previously.

[ QUOTE ]
Saddam Hussein’s Regime’s Methods of Torture

The following methods of torture have all been reported to international human rights groups, such as Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, by the victims of torture or their families.

Eye gouging

Amnesty International reported the case of a Kurdish businessman in Baghdad who was executed in 1997. When his family retrieved his body, the eyes had been gouged out and the empty eye sockets stuffed with paper.

Piercing of hands with electric drill

A common method of torture for political detainees. Amnesty International reported one victim who then had acid poured into his open wounds.

Suspension from the ceiling

Victims are blindfolded, stripped and suspended for hours by their wrists, often with their hands tied behind their backs. This causes dislocation of shoulders and tearing of muscles and ligaments.

Electric shock

A common torture method. Shocks are applied to various parts of the body, including the genitals, ears, tongue and fingers.

Sexual abuse

Victims, particularly women, have been raped and sexually abused, including reports of broken bottles being forced into the victim’s anus.

"Falaqa"

Victims are forced to lie face down and are then beaten on the soles of their feet with a cable, often losing consciousness.

Other physical torture

Extinguishing cigarettes on various parts of the body, extraction of fingernails and toenails and beatings with canes, whips, hose pipes and metal rods are common.

Mock executions

Victims are told that they are to be executed by firing squad and a mock execution is staged. Victims are hooded and brought before a firing squad, who then fire blank rounds.

Acid baths

David Scheffer, US Ambassador-at-Large for War Crimes, reported that photographic evidence showed that Iraq had used acid baths during the invasion of Kuwait. Victims were hung by their wrists and gradually lowered into the acid.

[/ QUOTE ]
Saddam needs killing.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

My hope is that one of his own people do that killing. He has hurt them the most.

But if none of them will do it, one of our people will.

[Chris]

[ QUOTE ]
From Maxi's article:
"Ultimately, one is struck by the constant use of non-profit, donor money used to fund Pat's schemes, and the total lack of ethics that this man has. Anyone thinking about sending money to CBN to "promote the gospel" should definitely take note; chances are that your money will end up being used to increase the fortune of one Marion "Pat" Robertson instead."

[/ QUOTE ]

Maxi, you can't be serious. If any of that stuff were true he would be in jail. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

[DoctorDoom]

Does the name Jim Bakker ring a bell?

[Warlady]

Sam, where on Earth did you get that idea? You have no such proof. You must be thinking of Jesse Jackson.

[MaximumSam]

Rglen,

Sam, I want to state first of all how I respect your willingness to play the devil's advocate here. I would admire you for it, except that I think you enjoy it too much, so it cant be considered a virtue for you, heheh.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon129.gif

Lord, talk about a telling remark. Yes, Sam, being willing to do everything one can to hold on to power is by definition evil.

Why is it that you leftists can only recognize evil if it is in the USA? And then you still get it wrong half the time.

Well, I can't speak for all Leftists in general, but personally, I hate calling anything 'evil.' It is simply a meaningless word to me. If we conclude that both Saddam Hussein and Pat Robertson are evil, where does that leave us? We are going to war with Hussein, and while 'evil' propaganda gets the crowd going, it isn't the reason we are going to war (it isn't as if we are attacking Pat Robertson's million dollar mansion).

Furthermore, I have a much better understanding of Americans than I do Iraqis. I understand the pressures, goals, and methods that Americans use, so I feel I am in much better position to judge American people. I have never said that anything Saddam does is okay or moral, but that doesn't mean that I have to call him evil. What use does calling him evil have?

And no, Sadam would have been a murderer no matter where he was born, because both those choices are available in both countries.

I think this would only be true if Saddam had some pathological need to murder people. I don't think he does, from what I know of him, but of course I don't. If he did, I certainly wouldn't want to live next to him, but also, I would think he is sick and in need of mental health care.

Your view completely removes the responsability of moral choice from the perpetrator as though human behavior was determined by environment and we know now that there is absolutely no basis in science for such a belief.

Not at all. I am not saying Saddam would or would not act a certain way. I am saying that the choices he would have would be much different. He wouldn't be a revolutionary and he wouldn't be a dictator, and he wouldn't be in the position to murder or kill lots of people. As far as I can tell, he does this because of his ambition and lack of scruples, as well as his cultural influences. When you change the cultural influences, you don't still get a murderous dictator. You get Pat Robertson.

Sam, read the Bible more, ok? And pay attention this time, heheh.

I have read the Bible, and I was forced to pay attention, and I still think Pat Robertson is evil. Can someone be 'really evil' as opposed to 'evil.' I mean, the righteous go to heaven, the flawed go to purgatory, but everyone who is evil goes to one spot. So, if Pat and Saddam are headed to the same place, can one be worse than the other?

Yes things would be different; he would be an Afghani mullah, probably, trying to maintain the peace.

Possible, but it seems hard to amass a personal fortune that way.

What, Sam, you dont think that these choices between good and evil exist outside the USA? Those wicked Middle East environments only produce hitmen and murderers? But millions of Afghanis live their lives without ever committing murder, and the same is true of Iraquis, so it cant be the environments that make these people murderers or they would all be murderers or at least the predominant number of them would be.


Of course, there are good people in the Middle East and in America. You are characterizing my argument as saying this is a sociological phenomenon - middle easterners are more evil because of their circumstances. That isn't my point. I am saying that doing evil deeds as a dictator or revolutionary is different from doing evil deeds in America. Hundreds of years ago 'Christians' raped and pillaged and tortured, because that is what evil people did in those days. Evil people in South Africa rape babies, and evil people in Iraq kill their family. Simply because America has reached a more peaceful era doesn't mean it no longer contains evil people, it just means that those evil people can't rape babies or kill their family, or else they go to jail

I guess you have never watched the Sopranos or heard of Al Capone, Moly Hatchet, or Pee Wee Herman.

My great aunt actually lived in Chicago and served Al Capone coffee (before he got real famous).

In fact, one of the reasons that the USA is so much better off than Afghanistan is that political people in the USA do in fact make the better moral choice more often than leadrs do in Afghanistan or Iraq. If that offends you as it presents America in a good light, sorry, but it is the Truth.

That's because we have a good justice system and a fair government with checks and balances made to prevent evil people from getting too much power. Even if Saddam somehow circumvented the Constitution and became president, he still couldn't gas his own people. But being a dictator, he can do whatever he wants.

[MaximumSam]

SG,

Excuse me Sam, but those links go to personal web pages and not real news sites. If you want to prove your points about Pat Robertson, you need to supply legitimate news articles written by real news reporters. And it's best to link to a few different sources that are not one sided on this issue.

It may be the best, but I am writing a paper and I don't have time. You asked me why I dislike Pat Robertson, and I showed why.

Chris,

Maxi, you can't be serious. If any of that stuff were true he would be in jail

You would hope so.

[Chris]

[ QUOTE ]
DoctorDoom said:
Does the name Jim Bakker ring a bell?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, and that's exactly why I think he would be in jail by now if that diamond mine stuff was true.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

[ QUOTE ]
Even if Saddam somehow circumvented the Constitution and became president, he still couldn't gas his own people. But being a dictator, he can do whatever he wants.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not for long.

[Warlady]

Sam, you have just gotten too silly for me in this thread. You are young and I'm sure that has to have something to do with it.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Just a point of order here:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,77333,00.html (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0)

[ QUOTE ]

Although no official Iraqi government statement was issued, individual Baghdad officials expressed sympathy for the American people, despite the tense confrontation between the United States and Iraq.

"We are people who love other people," said Bushra al-Samarai, a member of the Iraqi National Assembly. "We respect their feelings and share their sadness over this tragic incident."

....

A National Assembly leader, Secretary General Ghalib Jassim, also voiced sympathy for the space shuttle tragedy, but with a reminder that Iraq feels under siege from the same stricken America.

....

"We are friends for the American people," said Jassim, a graduate of the State University of New York at Buffalo. "We don't have anything against the American people as people. The problem is between us and the American administration."


[/ QUOTE ]

[Dash_Riprock]

My replies to this topic got me banned at CHB as of today. Well, to tell the truth, I started another thread asserting the cultural inferiority of a great many nations and that got me banned--to which I referenced this particular event. Some of the people there didn't like it...sniff, sniff.

As far as the specifics of this particular topic go. Keeping thumbing your noses...that won't stop us from overrunning your country faster than Saddam can say, "What happened to my Revolutionary Guard?".

[**DONOTDELETE**]

[ QUOTE ]

Well, I can't speak for all Leftists in general, but personally, I hate calling anything 'evil.' It is simply a meaningless word to me. If we conclude that both Saddam Hussein and Pat Robertson are evil, where does that leave us? We are going to war with Hussein, and while 'evil' propaganda gets the crowd going, it isn't the reason we are going to war (it isn't as if we are attacking Pat Robertson's million dollar mansion).


[/ QUOTE ]

The usefulness of the idea of 'evil' and judging people to be 'evil' is similar to the prior concept of being labeled an 'infidel' or 'heretic'. The concepts of just war did not apply to heretics and infidels. One was permitted to fight against them however one might because they were outside the pale of Christian regard. For instance Henry V's English army committed some depredations in France because the English and French recognized different Popes (this was during the Great Schism) and many Englishmen considered the French to be effectively heretics and felt the concept of just war was not in effect with them.

When one is considered evil, the moral man is obligated, IMO, to oppose that man in all he does. If the evil man runs for office the moral man should oppose him vociferously. should the evil man open a business the moral man should not patronize it, and he should inform others of the reasons why. In other words, the man becomes anathema, and the normal rules of courtesy no longer apply. I think a useful concept to advance the progress of mankind, and note that the Left still practices this form of ostracism though they no longer accept the rest of the moral framework that it came from; ie they use it for merely grasping yet more power with no moral license or warrant.

In international relations, the proper response to the evil ruler is different by necesity. The economies of nations, and their international interests should not be diminished because of one man's moral failings. The proper response is to treat the man in cool formality and be wary of his intentions. Those who support him should realize that they are passing up many opportunities with your nation as long as that man holds power. Sometimes that is sufficient undermine an evil ruler, and I think it had an effect on Moi's finally being ushered from power in Kenya; a triumph of progress, from what I know.

IMO, such nations ruled by evil men should not be rewarded with preferential treatment, but not punished unless the evil person ruling that nation begins to act in a dangerous manner. This is why hussein could be tolerated, in even aided if it was in the national interest, and then warred against for stepping over the line of what is tolerable.

While I agree tha Mobutu was evil, he was harmless in international terms, as was his successor Kabila. So while I regret Robertson's actions and think that they are morally immature, I dont think that that is one the same plane of moral misbehavior as aiding and abetting someone who is actively trying to cause injury, destruction and slaughter inside one's own nation.

[ QUOTE ]

And no, Sadam would have been a murderer no matter where he was born, because both those choices are available in both countries. - rglencheek

I think this would only be true if Saddam had some pathological need to murder people. I don't think he does, from what I know of him, but of course I don't. If he did, I certainly wouldn't want to live next to him, but also, I would think he is sick and in need of mental health care.


[/ QUOTE ]

Sadams right of passage for his sons was to have them shoot a political prisoner to death with a handgun while the man was helplessly tied up. His sons emptied the magazines, and Qusay asked for more rounds.

Is that sick enough for you?

[ QUOTE ]

He wouldn't be a revolutionary and he wouldn't be a dictator, and he wouldn't be in the position to murder or kill lots of people. As far as I can tell, he does this because of his ambition and lack of scruples, as well as his cultural influences. When you change the cultural influences, you don't still get a murderous dictator. You get Pat Robertson.


[/ QUOTE ]

I dont think that you can assert that Sadam would be anything more than a failed revolutionary, adn I do think he would be actively trying to acquire such power. Note that many in the USA are admirers of such dictators, in fact there was a thread a few weeks ago about how much the Hollywood Left fawns all over Castro despite his atrocities and tyranical rule.

These cretins are as evil as Sadam in potential, though they have as yet not had the opportunity to manifest thier desires. Other people accept a more limited scope to their killings inthis country and keep it merely on the personal rather than the institutional level.

[ QUOTE ]

Can someone be 'really evil' as opposed to 'evil.' I mean, the righteous go to heaven, the flawed go to purgatory, but everyone who is evil goes to one spot. So, if Pat and Saddam are headed to the same place, can one be worse than the other?


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, there are differences in degree of evil. There is a difference between the man who covets his neighbors wife, and the man who kills the husband and takes the wife by force openly. King David fell to temptation with Uriah and had that righteouss man unfairly exposed to death. Even though he had evil inhis heart, he could not act in an open way for shame. Truly evil beasts ahve no such shame, and David was redeemed. There is a big difference.

[ QUOTE ]

I am saying that doing evil deeds as a dictator or revolutionary is different from doing evil deeds in America. Hundreds of years ago 'Christians' raped and pillaged and tortured, because that is what evil people did in those days. Evil people in South Africa rape babies, and evil people in Iraq kill their family. Simply because America has reached a more peaceful era doesn't mean it no longer contains evil people, it just means that those evil people can't rape babies or kill their family, or else they go to jail


[/ QUOTE ]

Does getting away with the evil deed make it any less evil? There are violently evil people in this country, and many of them do get away with it. Robertson could have chosen to become such a person, but did not, therefore he is at least not as crude if not a quite bit more moral.

[ QUOTE ]

My great aunt actually lived in Chicago and served Al Capone coffee (before he got real famous).


[/ QUOTE ]

Are you a black American? I thought Capone employed blacks as house servants. Did she work elsewhere?

[ QUOTE ]

In fact, one of the reasons that the USA is so much better off than Afghanistan is that political people in the USA do in fact make the better moral choice more often than leadrs do in Afghanistan or Iraq. If that offends you as it presents America in a good light, sorry, but it is the Truth. - rglencheek

That's because we have a good justice system and a fair government with checks and balances made to prevent evil people from getting too much power. Even if Saddam somehow circumvented the Constitution and became president, he still couldn't gas his own people. But being a dictator, he can do whatever he wants.


[/ QUOTE ]

But the choices I am refering to start at the lowest level and go on up. I agree that the system of checks and balances are a big factor, as is the Electoral college, hahahah, but I think another major factor is that this country is among the most religious on Earth, at least untill the WWII generation leaves us entirely, and perhaps even after that.

[Longhorn_Platinum]

[ QUOTE ]
Gone_with_the_Wind said:
[ QUOTE ]
I seem to recall that Bubba used Oklahoma City as an opportunity to bash Rush Limbaugh.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't know Bubba was a conservative. http://freeconservatives.com/ubbthreads/images/icons/icon103.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

http://freeconservatives.com/ubbthreads/images/icons/icon19.gif <font color="blue">Bashing Rush Limbaugh is a trait of LIBERALS.</font>

[Gone_with_the_Wind]

I know that; so what was your point? I said I didn't recall conservatives who would use a national tragedy like this to bash a president ANY PRESIDENT, including a liberal president if it had happened on a liberal president's watch.

So you point out a liberal president who bashed Rush ... so what's your point??? Yes, Bubba is a liberal. I expect liberals to do dumb things and I detest them for it. No, Rush is not a president, nor is he a liberal. Bubba was and is an idiot liberal who can't seem to control his mouth. What is your point???

[Gone_with_the_Wind]

[ QUOTE ]
Longhorn_Platinum said:
[ QUOTE ]
Gone_with_the_Wind said:
[ QUOTE ]
I seem to recall that Bubba used Oklahoma City as an opportunity to bash Rush Limbaugh.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't know Bubba was a conservative. http://freeconservatives.com/ubbthreads/images/icons/icon103.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

http://freeconservatives.com/ubbthreads/images/icons/icon19.gif <font color="blue">Bashing Rush Limbaugh is a trait of LIBERALS.</font>

[/ QUOTE ]

LP, If you're going to quote me, I'd appreciate it if you'd quote me properly. I said: [ QUOTE ]
I didn't know Bubba was a conservative. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

[/ QUOTE ] I DID NOT say: [ QUOTE ]
I didn't know Bubba was a conservative. http://freeconservatives.com/ubbthreads/images/icons/icon103.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon133.gif

[Gone_with_the_Wind]

[ QUOTE ]
SouthernGal said:
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon133.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
Well... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif Smilies ARE a part of the quote...

I mean... my relationship with LP started going on the skids the day he questioned a smilie I picked. Then I questioned his sense of humor... Hey... if you're gonna quote someone, you'd better get it right! Isn't that what you told me, LP????

[Longhorn_Platinum]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon115.gif <font color="blue">No, I never said that. (Although, the quote in my sig line is perfectly accurate.) You know, when I read your comment about Bubba, I could have sworn that I saw a...

http://freeconservatives.com/ubbthreads/images/icons/icon103.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon115.gif ...&amp; not a...

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon115.gif It was an honest mistake, I assure you.</font>

[Timberwolf]

[ QUOTE ]
Longhorn_Platinum said:
[ QUOTE ]
Gone_with_the_Wind said:
[ QUOTE ]
But then again I know some conservatives who would have taken the opportunity to do the same to Clinton if this had happened four years ago.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who??? Name a conservative that would have taken a tragedy like this and make it into an opportunity to bash Clinton.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://mysmilies.com/cwmb/default/old.gif <font color="blue">I seem to recall that Bubba used Oklahoma City as an opportunity to bash Rush Limbaugh.</font>

[/ QUOTE ]
Yet, once again GWTW, you miss the point. You claimed that you 'knew' of not one conservative that would've used such a tragedy (OKC) to bash Clinton and that you were running a BB at the time. I was one of those bashing Clinton (on quite a few BBs...UC, RR, Ms, MM, to name a few) b/c of, as 2A said, the incredibly coincidental timing of OKC and the stalled anti-terrorism legislation in Congress that Clinton desperately wanted enacted. It SAILED through both Houses, practically unopposed, in under 2 weeks after OKC. In fact, don't you think it odd that every time the government wants to usurp more of our freedom, "something" happens to ensure that it can, relatively easily??

Longhorn merely turned your post around and pointed out that Clinton used OKC a tragedy to bash Rush (basically to demonize talk radio and the VRWC)...you don't see the irony in that??

C'mon....

[Dash_Riprock]

T-Wolf,

Long time no see!

[MaximumSam]

Rglen,

While I agree tha Mobutu was evil, he was harmless in international terms, as was his successor Kabila. So while I regret Robertson's actions and think that they are morally immature, I dont think that that is one the same plane of moral misbehavior as aiding and abetting someone who is actively trying to cause injury, destruction and slaughter inside one's own nation.

But the issue to me is not how do the two men's misdeeds match up, it's how do they match up with the choices they have. Robertson has never had any pressure to kill anyone - the risks of such an action would stand in his way. Saddam doesn't have this barrier. IMO, from Robertson's actions, I don't have much doubt that he would make very similar choices to Saddam (or actually, as the Taliban). Pat Robertson has never had any power to slaughter anyone, and doing so would accomplish anything he wanted. This is different for Saddam.

Sadams right of passage for his sons was to have them shoot a political prisoner to death with a handgun while the man was helplessly tied up. His sons emptied the magazines, and Qusay asked for more rounds.

Is that sick enough for you?

Sick, yeah, but is he a psychopath? I don't know. There are all sorts of tales on how people in power require such misdeeds to show their allegiance. Even God was going to have Abraham sacrifice his son. This seems more like Saddam's motive than blatant killing.

I dont think that you can assert that Sadam would be anything more than a failed revolutionary, adn I do think he would be actively trying to acquire such power. Note that many in the USA are admirers of such dictators, in fact there was a thread a few weeks ago about how much the Hollywood Left fawns all over Castro despite his atrocities and tyranical rule.

These cretins are as evil as Sadam in potential, though they have as yet not had the opportunity to manifest thier desires. Other people accept a more limited scope to their killings inthis country and keep it merely on the personal rather than the institutional level.

Which is exactly what I'm saying - in potential, there are plenty of people as evil as Saddam. Pat Robertson has really made the most of his potential, so if he had even more power it would be scary to think what he would do.

Yes, there are differences in degree of evil. There is a difference between the man who covets his neighbors wife, and the man who kills the husband and takes the wife by force openly. King David fell to temptation with Uriah and had that righteouss man unfairly exposed to death. Even though he had evil inhis heart, he could not act in an open way for shame. Truly evil beasts ahve no such shame, and David was redeemed. There is a big difference.

But having evil and being evil are two different things. Everyone has some evil and submits to some temptations, but that doesn't make a person evil. Is there some sort of level one achieves that makes them unilaterally evil?

Does getting away with the evil deed make it any less evil? There are violently evil people in this country, and many of them do get away with it. Robertson could have chosen to become such a person, but did not, therefore he is at least not as crude if not a quite bit more moral.

Could he have chosen to do so? Much of his success is built on staying in command of a large multimedia empire, which requires him to stay somewhat within the bounds of the law (or otherwise end up as Jim Bakker). He had no real pressure to do anything really illegal, and so refraining from doesn't make him any better than a petty thug who makes his living mugging people.

Are you a black American? I thought Capone employed blacks as house servants. Did she work elsewhere?


Heh, she worked in a coffee shop.

But the choices I am refering to start at the lowest level and go on up. I agree that the system of checks and balances are a big factor, as is the Electoral college, hahahah, but I think another major factor is that this country is among the most religious on Earth, at least untill the WWII generation leaves us entirely, and perhaps even after that.

I don't think being religious is that great - after all, the Taliban was uber-religious. I think America is very scrupulous, however, and so along those lines we agree.

[Etaoin]

I certainly would expect that each and (almost) every member of this board to be "up in arms" over the Muslim reaction to this disaster.

My personal reaction is...how would they feel if we glazed their location with a small or medium nuke. When they dance in the streets over the demise of their enemies, can they not expect our rejoicing at their failures? That is not in the characteristic of democratic nations! We help those who suffer.

Terrorism and Glee at misfortune are bound to bring retribution to those idiots who are gleeful over the demise of those who never wished them harm or wished them anything but the best. It is their failures that will eventually bring destrution to their countries.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

[ QUOTE ]
I certainly would expect that each and (almost) every member of this board to be "up in arms" over the Muslim reaction to this disaster.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not "up in arms" because it is totally logical that muslims would have something negative to say about the shuttle accident since some of them hate us and especially hate Israelis. But unlike after 9/11, we weren't shown a whole bunch of muslims dancing on the street after the shuttle accident. Just a few Iraqis talking as Iraqis would under the watchful eyes of their government.

[Hawki46]

I am new here and have read this post in it's entirety. I too have checked out the DU site on occasion and I consider them a terrorist group.
[ QUOTE ]


[/ QUOTE ] Sams Quotes...
I hate calling anything 'evil.' It is simply a meaningless word to me. If we conclude that both Saddam Hussein and Pat Robertson are evil, where does that leave us?

I have never said that anything Saddam does is okay or moral, but that doesn't mean that I have to call him evil. What use does calling him evil have?

I have read the Bible, and I was forced to pay attention, and I still think Pat Robertson is evil.

IMHO Sam you are an idiot!

[Warlady]

Hawki welcome to FC. You catch on quick!

Sorry Sammie LOL

[MaximumSam]

I hate calling anything 'evil.' It is simply a meaningless word to me. If we conclude that both Saddam Hussein and Pat Robertson are evil, where does that leave us?

I have never said that anything Saddam does is okay or moral, but that doesn't mean that I have to call him evil. What use does calling him evil have?

I have read the Bible, and I was forced to pay attention, and I still think Pat Robertson is evil.

IMHO Sam you are an idiot!

Well, I try to assume that everyone here has enough common sense to read a thread, but apparently that isn't true. So, I'll explain - when I say Pat Robertson is evil, I am making an argument based on the other side's criteria - they don't think he is evil, I argue that he is. OTOH, they do think Saddam is evil, and so I caution against calling him evil in comparison to Pat Robertson. Plus, I added a new argument on the usefulness of calling someone evil. Hopefully this explains things, I don't know how to explain basic common sense.

[Sean]

I'm not interested in personal insults and hope you don't take my condemnation of your words assuch.

I've mentioned earlier that the "re