Photos show odd images near shuttle

[oracle]

Photos show odd images near shuttle (http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2003/02/02/MN221641.DTL)

<font size=1>David Perlman, Chronicle Science Editor </font>

A San Francisco amateur astronomer who photographs the space shuttles whenever their orbits carry them over the Bay Area has captured five strange and provocative images of the shuttle Columbia just as it was re-entering the Earth's atmosphere before dawn Saturday.

The pictures, taken with a Nikon 8 camera on a tripod, reveal what appear to be bright electrical phenomena flashing around the track of the shuttle's passage, but the photographer, who asked not to be identified, will not make them public immediately.

"They clearly record an electrical discharge like a lightning bolt flashing past, and I was snapping the pictures almost exactly . . . when the Columbia may have begun breaking up during re-entry," he said.


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Click here to read more (http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2003/02/02/MN221641.DTL)

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Pictures could be a hoax. It's been known to happen.

[Warlady]

Eyewitnesses over Dallas saw it looking fine one minute and then debris began to come off of it. If it was breaking up over California I don't see how it would make it to Texas even at 12,500 mph. I guess it's possible.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

In the article it says this guy won't make the pictures public and only showed them to the people of the newspaper on his computer. It's easy to doctor photos on a computer.

[Chris]

This came up on another thread. During the NASA press conference this was addressed though. Evidently those flashes happen all the time upon re-entry. It has something to do with plasma bursts. I think it's from the speed and hitting the atmosphere and stuff, but I don't remember that part for sure.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

You're right, Chris! I remember them talking about it. Then why is that article still up, though? Don't they read other news accounts? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Chris]

I don't know. They either didn't hear the press conference, or are just trying to fill their pages with news. We are talking about something out of San Francisco remember. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif

[**DONOTDELETE**]

True! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Chris]

Yikes, according to the NASA press conference that they are having right now, there may be something to this after all.

They went over the data they had on the re-entry and the instrument problems started to show up over CA. Then more instruments dropped off line at the CA/Nevada border, then more over New Mexico. And, they mentioned that they were looking into the eyewitness report in CA of stuff falling off.

I'm thinking that they may have indeed lost a few tiles here and there, but they hit the highest temperatures in their descent when they were over Texas and the important manuevering stuff got fried, and maybe they just spun out and ripped up.

[Dash_Riprock]

My best guess is that the piece of insulation that struck the orbiter as it took off impacted the covering of the cover of the left wheel well near the edge of the left wing. The housing is designed to be airtight. If the impact caused a very, very slight misalignment of the cover (it opens when the gear is extending to land), then the heat from reentry would slowly bleed into the chamber housing the landing gear through the crack. That would explain the sensors going offline over a period of a few minutes. Eventually, the heat would compromise the internal structure of the shuttle--causing it to melt from the inside out. Looking at the amateur videos, you can see shiny panels detaching from the shuttle a few at a time as it glided in. Those had to have come from the top or the side, not the bottom. That suggests the heat burning all of the way through the shuttle to the point where the roof and the tail detached. There's a good chance they were all dead before the final breakup of the crew cabin occurred.

May our heroes rest in peace.

[Chris]

A few things are wrong with that scenario from what we know so far. First, the reports of debris over CA.. Second, the piece that broke off during lift off didn't hit that far back to hit the wheel well. And third, the fact that they were talking to the crew until it broke up. If they were burning up in the cabin at that point, they wouldn't have been talking the routine way that they were.

[Dash_Riprock]

Chris,

There are many things we don't know. First, the fact there is debris scattered over a long stretch indicates that is was a slow burnup, not the result of some catastrophic structural failure. Second, we don't know exactly where the insulation impacted because it can't be seen impacting. Everyone is assuming that the wing took the brunt of the impact because the piece emerged from the end of the wing. Depending on where the piece broke off and the angle it took, it could have easily struck the wheel well cover and skidded along the bottom of the wing and emerged from there. The wings of the shuttle are located very far back on it (as opposed to a convention aircraft), and straddle the rear landing gear assembly. Third, we don't know when communications stopped in relation to the start of the breakup. Everyone assumes that communications continued until the moment the shuttle started to break up. Without some synchonization of visual records (amateur video tapes), and radar tracking records, with the audio, there is no way to know if there was a gap between the end of the audio and the beginning of the breakup.

As I said, it's just a theory.

[Chris]

[ QUOTE ]
Dash_Riprock said:
Chris,

There are many things we don't know.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know. That's why I said from what we know so far.


[ QUOTE ]
First, the fact there is debris scattered over a long stretch indicates that is was a slow burnup, not the result of some catastrophic structural failure.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't dispute that, just that the build up may have started with missing tiles, then more falling off. The ones falling off at that speed might very well have hit the wheel well door and knocked it out of alignment, causing the problems that showed up by the time they got to Texas.


[ QUOTE ]
Second, we don't know exactly where the insulation impacted because it can't be seen impacting.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, I said from what we know so far, and so far they have be saying it hit the top front of the wing.


[ QUOTE ]
Third, we don't know when communications stopped in relation to the start of the breakup.

[/ QUOTE ]

According to the NASA press conferences so far, it began to break up when they lost contact.


[ QUOTE ]
As I said, it's just a theory.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mine too. And, NASA's reports keep changing as they analyze it further too.

[Dash_Riprock]

"According to the NASA press conferences so far, it began to break up when they lost contact."


I hadn't heard that. I had heard only that it began breaking up sometime after contact was lost. I haven't even heard whether or not anyone was tracking it with radar at the time of breakup. If not, then I don't know how they would know when it began to break up after losing communications. It's possible that it happened at the precise moment communications were lost, but with sensors failing from the heat, it may have also knocked out communications before the disintegration actually began to occur.

[Chris]

Dash,

On the latest NASA news conference they said they lost contact at the time it broke up. I specifically listened to see when it happened in relation to their contact with them, and that's what they said.

Maybe they verified it with the times of their data, and the time it was reported to have happened in Texas. I have no idea. I'm just going by what they did say.

[ QUOTE ]
I haven't even heard whether or not anyone was tracking it with radar at the time of breakup.

[/ QUOTE ]

On one of the topics from yesterday RANDy posted the doppler radar of it. I think it was weather radar.

[Dash_Riprock]

Yes, I've seen that particular image. But I don't know how effective it will be in establishing a timeline beyond a general reference. Doppler weather radars aren't usually geared for that sort of thing, whereas air traffic control radars are--and I haven't heard that any air traffic control stations were tracking it. NASA relies on electronic telemetry. Once that link is cut, they have to call for help.

Perhaps they will be able to provide a specific time when the image began to be created, but it looks that image represents end of the breakup...not the beginning. 12,500 mph, thats about 3.5 miles per second. It wouldn't have taken the shuttle long to traverse that distance (maybe two minutes).

[Chris]

If you look at it closely though, you can see dense areas when it loops. I thought that might be the major break up point.

As for other radar, doesn't NASA in Houston monitor the return also?

[Dash_Riprock]

You may be right about the Doppler image.

As for Houston, I'm sure that do have radar monitoring facilities, but I don't know if they use them during reentry. At 12,500 mph, the thing simply streaks across radar screens. That's why they rely on telemetry delivered via satellite.

I don't know if they still use radar to track it while it is in orbit. Again, I think NASA relies so much on telemetry that they use radar only as an occasional supplement.

I do know that NASA uses Florida radar tracking facilities, but that's because by the time it gets here (to Florida) it has slowed immensely and is flying much lower. Obviously, radar tracking become more practical--and prudent.

[Chris]

I also can't imagine that there isn't some other way of pinpointing when it happened, such as seismic measuring instruments. The explosion is said to have rocked buildings.

[Dash_Riprock]

That's a good point, certainly it will point to certain locations (points in time) where some of the major degeneration happened. The shuttle does create sonic booms, but the problem is that when the it began breaking up, each of the pieces began making their own sonic booms. That's why some people described the long sound of a passing tornado or passing train. They are going to have to determine at what point the initial sonic boom was heard--and not just a continuation of the booms.

Using some sophisticated mathematical models, they should be able to recreate the disintegration timeline based upon the debris pattern. They'd have to factor in altitude, speed, and mass of the objects, but there are computers that can do it.

[Warlady]

They also have 36 seconds of data on a hard drive that they haven't examined yet. I wonder what that will show.