NYT: Saudi Women Are Perfectly Fine Wearing the Hijab, Not Being Able to Vote...

[Wyatt_Junker]

... not being able to drive, getting physically abused and enduring clitorectomies...

At least that's what they would like you to think in their strange little multicultural world.

JIDDA, Saudi Arabia, Sept. 27 - The audience - 500 women covered in black at a Saudi university - seemed an ideal place for Karen P. Hughes, a senior Bush administration official charged with spreading the American message in the Muslim world, to make her pitch.

But the response on Tuesday was not what she and her aides expected. When Ms. Hughes expressed the hope here that Saudi women would be able to drive and “fully participate in society” much as they do in her country, many challenged her.

“The general image of the Arab woman is that she isn’t happy,” one audience member said. “Well, we’re all pretty happy.” The room, full of students, faculty members and some professionals, resounded with applause.



Link (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/28/international/middleeast/28hughes.html?hp&ex=1127880000&en=b6e789d3d9f39316&ei=5094&partner=homepage)

[PaulRevere]

“The general image of the Arab woman is that she isn’t happy,” one audience member said. “Well, we’re all pretty happy.” The room, full of students, faculty members and some professionals, resounded with applause.

After this their husbands, standing behind them, put away their whips.

[Wolfcounsel]

Ms. Hughes, the under secretary of state for public diplomacy, is on her first trip to the Middle East. She seemed clearly taken aback as the women told her that just because they were not allowed to vote or drive that did not mean they were treated unfairly or imprisoned in their own homes. --from the link posted by Wyatt_Junker

I wonder what they would have received if they had allowed their tongues to be loosened.

[Kathy29]

If we judged them by their own standards instead of ours, we might find out to our surprise that they DO prefer the way they live over the way we live. They are pretty horrified over the way women are treated here. Women who show their bodies might be pretty disgusting to their way of thinking. Men who allow women to drive and vote might be seen as disrespecting the role of women in their society.

Cultures are neither right nor wrong. They are simply different. Sometimes so different as to be incompatible. If the world just recognized that instead if trying to put all the round pegs in all the square holes, we'd go a longer way towards peace, than both side thinking they have the corner on a better way to live.

[DoctorDoom]

Who else has noticed the absolute silence from the screeching harridans of NOW about the atrocious treatment of women by Islime? Hypocrisy, thy name is feminism.

[ErikTheRed]

Hm, because the ladies from NOW don't give a rat's ass about the inequalites suffered by the women in foreign lands (COFF, Islamic countries, COFF). NOW is a completely ludicrous orginization. Anyone that truly believes in women's rights should be totally appalled by the way that females are treated as lesser animals. Oh, and by the way, let's cut their clitoris out to make them pure. Huh? Islam is a pre-medeival culture that either needs to get up to speed or be erased.

[Crusader]

Methinks the women do suffer to be brain-washed, forsooth.

[MSGT]

Hm, because the ladies from NOW don't give a rat's ass about the inequalites suffered by the women in foreign lands (COFF, Islamic countries, COFF). NOW is a completely ludicrous orginization. Anyone that truly believes in women's rights should be totally appalled by the way that females are treated as lesser animals. Oh, and by the way, let's cut their clitoris out to make them pure. Huh? Islam is a pre-medeival culture that either needs to get up to speed or be erased.


I'll go with the latter

[PatrioticAmerican]

If they want to live that way, they better stay in their own countries. Anyone starts pushing that hijab/slave woman crap around here, and I will pick up a placard and start acting the protester.

After having women here finally break free of that mentality, to have foreigners agitating for a return to the Medieval time period would, most certainly, NOT be "progressive."

My two daughters will be NO man's property.

[CzechPrince]

It's not like they have much freedom to compalin anyway, even if they wanted to.

[DeclinetoState]

If we judged them by their own standards instead of ours, we might find out to our surprise that they DO prefer the way they live over the way we live. They are pretty horrified over the way women are treated here. Women who show their bodies might be pretty disgusting to their way of thinking. Men who allow women to drive and vote might be seen as disrespecting the role of women in their society.

Cultures are neither right nor wrong. They are simply different. Sometimes so different as to be incompatible. If the world just recognized that instead if trying to put all the round pegs in all the square holes, we'd go a longer way towards peace, than both side thinking they have the corner on a better way to live.Most women in our society DO NOT show their bodies. In some cases, we should be eternally grateful. In others, I wish they wouldn't even show their faces. (Helen Thomas, Hillary Clinton, etc., etc.)

However, Kathy, do you believe that any woman who is forced to undergo clitoridectomy--as many do in some (not all) Islamic societies--would, if she were given a legitimate, free choice, avoid having one?

"Oppose abortion? Don't have one!"

"Oppose clitoridectomy? Don't have one!"

[Wolfcounsel]

"Cultures are neither right nor wrong." --Kathy29

When men accept penisectomies, especially their own, as part of a culture, neither right nor wrong, then perhaps I shall see it your way.

[Kathy29]

Compared to islamic countries YES women in this country show their bodies. Their faces, wrists and ankles.

We're judging the islamic world by our standards. I think it's wrong. I think that women in islamic nations would be better off in a bikini. But I know from speaking to them that they believe we are the worst off.

[Federal Farmer]

"I don't want to drive a car," she said. "I worked hard for my medical degree. Why do I need a driver's license?"

"I love my abaya," she explained. "It's convenient and it can be very fashionable."
Sounds like alot of rationalization going on here. The first quote is a non sequitur, unless she means that the high-falutin types don't do the driving. The second quote, well I'm sure they make them as "fashionable" as the men allow. Don't want to get too sexy.

A woman in the audience then charged that under President Bush the United States had become "a right wing country" and that criticism by the press was "not allowed."
They must only get CNN or CBS.

[Melz]

Compared to islamic countries YES women in this country show their bodies. Their faces, wrists and ankles.

We're judging the islamic world by our standards. I think it's wrong. I think that women in islamic nations would be better off in a bikini. But I know from speaking to them that they believe we are the worst off.

Cultist organizations also think they have it good too, being one of 25 wives to some horribley disgusting man, knowing that there is something more normal out there but being bred to believe that it is of the devil.

It is not culture, it is a cult. Brainwashing and the threat of death even is more time consuming to their minds than thinking freely and rationally.

[medved]

You could probably eliminate I-slam from the planet by providing every woman in the slammite world with a 9mm pistol and 100 rounds of ammo.

[ErikTheRed]

Compared to islamic countries YES women in this country show their bodies. Their faces, wrists and ankles.

We're judging the islamic world by our standards. I think it's wrong. I think that women in islamic nations would be better off in a bikini. But I know from speaking to them that they believe we are the worst off.

With all due respect Cathy, how are Muslim women covered from head to toe and not allowed to interact with the public in general better off than a typical American woman? I just don't get it!

[DoctorDoom]

Maybe the NYT ought to read some real news.

Saudi Arabia's religious police stopped schoolgirls from leaving a blazing building because they were not wearing correct Islamic dress, according to Saudi newspapers.

In a rare criticism of the kingdom's powerful "mutaween" police, the Saudi media has accused them of hindering attempts to save 15 girls who died in the fire on Monday.

About 800 pupils were inside the school in the holy city of Mecca when the tragedy occurred.

15 girls died in the blaze and more than 50 others were injured

According to the al-Eqtisadiah daily, firemen confronted police after they tried to keep the girls inside because they were not wearing the headscarves and abayas (black robes) required by the kingdom's strict interpretation of Islam.Saudi police 'stopped' fire rescue (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1874471.stm)

If the NYT truly believes that Saudi women are happy with that bullshit ...

<center><img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v349/DocDoom777/NYT-journalism.png" /></center>

[Kathy29]

With all due respect Cathy, how are Muslim women covered from head to toe and not allowed to interact with the public in general better off than a typical American woman? I just don't get it!

I don't get it either! I don't understand it, I don't like it, I'd never do it. Which in no way prevents me from recognizing that women in muslim countries do like it and want cover themselves from head to toe and not interact with the public, or drive a car, or vote. The kind of culture that treats women like this deserves rejection. Which doesn't mean to say that we can sit here, in the western world and say that women in other cultures really don't want to live that way we'll all show them how wonderful it is to live our way. Especially when they clearly don't want to.

[ThomasMore]

If we judged them by their own standards instead of ours, we might find out to our surprise that they DO prefer the way they live over the way we live. They are pretty horrified over the way women are treated here. Women who show their bodies might be pretty disgusting to their way of thinking. Men who allow women to drive and vote might be seen as disrespecting the role of women in their society.

Kathy, I agree that some Saudi women may feel exactly the way you describe. Different people have different preferences; background, culture and upbringing definitely play roles in those preferences.

Cultures are neither right nor wrong. They are simply different. Sometimes so different as to be incompatible. If the world just recognized that instead if trying to put all the round pegs in all the square holes, we'd go a longer way towards peace, than both side thinking they have the corner on a better way to live.

I used to share that sentiment, but I have come to respectfully disagree. Different cultures have developed over centuries, by what has worked and what has been popular for them given their geography and history. Each of them has developed based on finite numbers of ideas, interactions and trials.

One of the things that happens when one culture clashes with another is the mixing of ideas. Usually some ideas and traditions will fall by the wayside, as others are adopted. New ideas supercede the old, for both good and ill.

But the fact that some new ideas ARE adopted and other old ones are dropped implies that the culture found some the new ideas more useful or more pleasing.

The European enlightenment culture strongly influenced other cultures when the other cultures came into contact with it: they learned some of the advantages of European culture. Similarly so with American culture.

European culture had had the advantage of exposure to Greek, Roman and Judeo-Christian histories and conflict with the Moorish and Ottoman cultures. Celtic, Germanic, Slavic and Romance cultures all interacted to give European culture a depth and vitality that other cultures did not have.

American culture developed from these roots, and added its own layer of independent individualism. The relatively open borders and willingness to allow other people from other cultures around the world to settle and assimilate their own experiences into American culture further enriched it.

Every culture deserves observation and some respect for this reason: it exists because it has worked. But not all cultures are equal.

Saudi culture is actively defensive: it bars outside influences because it fears them. Saudi leaders do not want their traditions changed, which they fear will happen if people have a choice.

OTOH, Americans can wear an Abaya if they wish. They can choose not to drive. Saudis can visit here, travel as they wish and keep almost all of their customs. We can learn from them, if they have anything to teach us. But we also have the choice to reject any elements of their culture that don't work as well.

The Saudis don't want to learn, they don't want to compare. They just want to bar.

[CzechPrince]

Excellant analysis Thomas.

[Kathy29]

Which is pretty much what I said. Sometimes cultures are so different as to be incompatible.

Historically, cultural change was sometimes brought about by extreme force. The British didn't end suttee in India through a mixing of ideas you know. No one was persuaded to give up self immolation. The British banned it, protected the widow and jailed the participants. Those who fought back, were fought with zeal and many Indian adherents to the practice were killed.

But it ended, didn't it.

[Uncle Sam]

I'll go with the latter I'll second that motion, MSGT.

[ThomasMore]

Which is pretty much what I said. Sometimes cultures are so different as to be incompatible.

Historically, cultural change was sometimes brought about by extreme force. The British didn't end suttee in India through a mixing of ideas you know. No one was persuaded to give up self immolation. The British banned it, protected the widow and jailed the participants. Those who fought back, were fought with zeal and many Indian adherents to the practice were killed.

But it ended, didn't it.

Kathy, I agree that force is sometimes the means by which cultural changes happen: for both good and ill. Ultimately, a dominant, corrupt society will collapse, even if it is temporarily dominant. The Roman Republic informed the Roman Empire, which informed most of Europe. Ultimately, Rome's corruption and decadence destroyed it, but not without spreading its technologies and language throughout much of Europe and the Mediterranean. Nazi Germany and the USSR spread their ideologies and cultures by force, until they eventually were destroyed (the Nazis from without, the USSR collapsed of its own weight and outside media and religious influences).

Even dominant cultures have, or develop, evils inherent to the culture: modern Western culture is TV-, celebrity-, and smut-obsessed, sedentary, and amoral. Education and hard work are increasingly devalued. These are signs of decay.

Not all Islamic culture is entirely insular and corrupt. Turkey's society, while far from perfect, is something of a democratic republic, and somewhat secular. Jordan's Hashemites (the traditional majority but currently a minority to Palestinian emigres) are productive, educated and religiously tolerant. Morocco and Tunisia are somewhat corrupt, but not politically as extreme as Iran's regime or Saudi Arabia. Iran's public, unlike its government, has historically been pro-Western; a republic could flourish there in the future. Lebanon is historically a Christian island in an Arab sea, with substantial minorities of both Arabs and Jews, who all usually got along -- until it was overrun by Syria.

There is a war within Islam. The language of the Koran provides plenty of support for the murderers, but many millions of Muslims do not read those passages the same way.

Unfortunately the Islamofascists hold the upper hand both with the pen and the sword. This is because the centers of extremist Islam, Saudi Arabia and Iran, are flooded with oil money. (Soviet manipulation, directly aided by Jimmy Carter, also had much to do with the fall of Iran).