The TRUTH About Homeschooling

[Barbara Stanley]

(no gun control here, unless it means hitting the target--Parents take charge)

By the book
Dedicated home educators have the statistics to show their success
TulsaWorld
SARA JEFFRIES Satellite Correspondent

Over the last few weeks, we've been reading misleading anecdotes about how Oklahoma home educators are arrogant, dishonest and disorganized. The push is on by "educrats" to have home education regulated and brought under the control of the government school system.

When it comes to home education, I know from whence I speak.

Now, let's bring on the facts.

Home-educated students rank around the 80th percentile nationally on standardized tests (yes, we do take them) according to a University of Maryland study on home education. Now, backward-thinking individuals such as Tulsa Public Schools Superintendent David Sawyer and company want to take a perfectly good record for scholastic achievement and have those students regress to the failing standards of the government school system. I thought the purpose of education was for children to learn.

"Instead of blasting the home-schoolers in fear and ignorance, how about learning from them and their successes and applying it to your school system, making the kids as well as the teachers and parents winners in the end?" asked Faye DeLong, a mother who has taught her three children at home.

Some people have questioned the qualifications of the parents who are educating their children at home, saying that they are not as competent as professional educators.

Parents should not feel unqualified because of their poor public school education to teach their own children.

Case in point: My mother received her education by professional educators in the Okmulgee public school system. She learned nothing of history or higher mathematics.

Instead, her "professional educator" for history goofed off during class time and then offered A's to female students who were willing to bend over and let said "professional educator" paddle them.

My mother's "professional educator" for algebra goofed off during class and let each student grade his or her own papers every day. Needless to say, passing grades were abundant in that class.

My mother has studied ancient European history, Homer, logic, Latin and algebra with me. This should dispel the myth that home education leads to a child that is no better educated than his parents.

"We have found it fairly easy -- especially with the huge amounts of home-education materials available -- to overcome the disadvantage of our own unfamiliarity with the subject matter," said Paul Fuhrmeister, who has taught his children at home for eight years.

"Any kind of approval, evaluation or supervision of our home-education process would begin to strip away some of the freedoms that make home schooling so effective," Fuhrmeister said.

Many parents who choose to teach their children at home do so not because of the failing government school system, but because they feel they can offer their child a customized education, fitted to meet their child's needs and learning style.

Rebecca Frech, another home educator, did not want her daughter's education slowed down by one-size-fits-all curriculum that her public school district used. The school district told Frech that all kindergartners learn the same curricula whether they are beyond it or not.

"We were horrified at the thought of our daughter wasting an entire year gluing macaroni to the letter 'M', so we elected to home school," Frech said.

Parents who choose to exercise their right to teach their children at home have a vast array of educational supplies and resources at their disposal. There are a myriad of curricula, learning cooperatives, academic competitions, organized field trips, support groups and science fairs.

There also are outlets for free curricula, and of course, the public library. Home-educated students have their own sports programs like basketball and golf that compete against private and small public schools. Other sports programs include soccer, kickball, volleyball, softball and gymnastics.

If you're looking for art appreciation for your home-educated student, we have classes in drama, painting, sculpture, art appreciation, choir and music.

There are more than 30 support groups in northeastern Oklahoma alone, serving hundreds of home-educating families and about 3,000 students.

Does Sawyer think he can regulate and supervise this many students and still keep up with his own? Now that I think about it, is Sawyer keeping up with his own students? Let's take a look.

The 2001-2002 freshman class at Rogers High School ranked at the 27th percentile nationally in reading. This score was down two points from the previous year.

How are the "professional educators" in a "professional setting" fairing in higher mathematics for these same students? Last year, these students ranked at the 23rd percentile nationally in mathematics.

Tulsa Public School's Central High School scored only slightly better for the same year. The freshman class of 2001-2002 ranked at the 26th percentile nationally in mathematics.

The 2000-2001 school year was a bad one for socialization skills at Central High School. For 939 students, there were 547 suspensions, the school reported.

The statistics speak for themselves. I don't know how Sawyer can keep a straight face while wanting to supervise home educators.

Dr. Sawyer, you've been fiddling while Rome burns. Please spend your time and energy bringing your own students out of the quagmire.

Sincerely, home-educated students are always looking for community service activities. What can we, as home-educated students do to help teach your students to read? We could tutor them, but we'd have to use our own tried and true curricula.

Since home education works, and home educators also pay taxes to keep government schools running, then maybe the government schools should be accountable to home educators instead of the other way around.

Maybe the so-called "professional educators" should undergo annual tests to see if they are qualified to teach students, since so many of them don't seem to be teaching. Teaching is an honorable profession, but not all teachers are honorable and not all teachers are teaching.

I know of several dedicated public school educators who are frustrated by all the red tape that keeps them tied to faulty curricula -- unable to customize the lessons to fit each student's needs. It is no wonder that some of these same public school educators choose to teach their own children at home.

Home education is about educating children in a safe, loving environment. It's about parents wanting to give their children the best education they possibly can.

Kristin Girard, an area home educator, recently expressed the sentiments of most home educators: "Home education is not an effort to remove our children from society, but an effort to better prepare them for society."

Sara Jeffries is a home-schooled sophomore. She can be reached at 581-8336 or via e-mail at satellite@tulsaworld.com

[tacitus]

[ QUOTE ]
Home education is about educating children in a safe, loving environment. It's about parents wanting to give their children the best education they possibly can.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is the problem, it's what the parents want for their children not what the NEA wants for the children. That is what they can't stand, they are losing control of the process and proving themselves irrelevent. All the proposed laws by the states to 'control' homeschooling are nothing more that trying to exercise their authority over the parents and children. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon20.gif

Excellent article thanks.

[Barbara Stanley]

When this country was young and there was no public education, the literacy rate was 85%; today the ILLITERACY RATE IS 85%.
When this country was young, calligraphy (quill and ink) was the norm, correspondence was intelligent and polite, families took care of the education of their young and this country was founded by those very same people.
Ask a government indoctrination centered drugged child today to even read the US Constitution and it is a painful experience to listen to the stumbling over the words, nevermind the fact there is a total ignorance of the principles involved.

A few years ago, a cousin was awarded the Honour Roll placement and the family had a dinner for her. I was impressed (recalling my own sister's Honour Roll inductment ceremony and at that time, my sis had a PERFECT SAT score, the highest in the State of New Jersey), so I asked this senior high schooler a question:
Should the U.N. get involved in the border war between Albania and Peru?
She said "Yes."
I told her this was a trick question, to listen carefully and I reiterated: Should the UN get involved in the border war between ALBANIA AND PERU? (emphasis added)
She said "No."
Cripes.
I told her Albania and Peru don't even share a hemisphere, nevermind a border.
I then asked her if she had geography and she said no. I asked what she did have for a geo. course and she said Global Studies. I thought, good.
"What's that?" I asked.
She said, (I poop you not), "Black African stuff."
Oh, nice.

Today's government indoctrination centers are nothing more than pharmaceutical client annexes making sure the kids on drugs today become the adults on drugs tomorrow.

[Stetson]

Barbara, you SURE DO make good points

[DoctorDoom]

Albania and Peru don't have a common border? DAMN! Why don't they TELL me these things? I've been sending monthly donations to the Albanian-Peruvian War Relief Foundation for years. You mean to say I've been scammed?

My attorney will hear of THIS, I dare say!

I suppose that some one will now tell me that the Greenland-Australia Bridge Project is also a hoax.

[PeteS_in_CA]

[ QUOTE ]
The push is on by "educrats" to have home education regulated and brought under the control of the government school system.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is classic misdirection. The government school system is screwing up big time so the educrats are trying to make homeschoolers - who have considerable freedom in OK - the issue to avoid the government schools being scrutinized. I guess the educrats think homeschoolers are a soft target - unprepared and voiceless - though educrats in other states have learned (the hard way, of course) otherwise.

[ponch21]

Statistics never lie, but liars use statistics.

Barbara, your comparison is flawed. Let's look beyond your stats for a moment. The major problem with public education is that we must educate all students whether they want to be or not. Many students and their parents don't want to do the work necessary for a quality education. I applaud homeschool parents for their dedication and interest in their child's education. The funny thing is, the students in my classroom who have active parents do quite well on national tests. It might have to do with the fact that I teach in MN, regarded,along with WI (where I attended public schools) and Iowa, as the best public education in the United States.

A friend I went to public school with scored a perfect score on the math/science portion of his SAT. Maybe his public school teacher mom had a part in that. I am not sure. Kids I went to school with scored in the 30's on their ACTs. Kids who want to take advantage of public school will do just fine. Kids who don't want to take advantage will struggle. Like most things in life, the family is the most important component. If a family emphasized education, then kids will achieve. I have had many students tell me that all their parents expect is a D. How exactly is public education supposed to combat that?

I work with 96 other professional educators, and the crap you described wouldn't even be on the radar of the people I work with. If it was, they would be dismissed.

[MaximumSam]

Very important observation, ponch.

[ponch21]

Thanks Maxi, it is nice to have someone see my side of things once in a while on this board.

[Barbara Stanley]

"Statistics never lie, but liars use statistics." Ponch 21

Because I used a statistic, are you calling me a liar?
Pretty harsh words for a teacher.

While it is a fact that involved parents have better educated kids, the trashing that homeschoolers are getting is totally unwarranted.
I would tell you of the statistic of the National Spelling Bee winners of late were all home-schooled, but wonder if you would call me a liar.

As long as I'm asking you, what percentage of kids in your school are on Ritalin? I live in the upstate farm country of NY and my cousin works in the local elementary school. She tells me the majority of the kids line up at noon for the trip to the Nurse's office for their drugs. I don't believe education is failing only in urban areas.

Do you belong to the teachers' union? Are you familiar with the words of union leader Shanker who said when students can vote in the union, then I'll care about them...(I paraphrase, but you get the drift.)

Before the Teachers Unions and democrats installed Education Admin (payback from Carter for votes), students were actually educated, had few pregnancies, were not wanded or walking through metal detectors on the way in the building, were generally well behaved and had poise, posture, brains and in general, easy to converse with as well as interesting.

But, back in those days, the Board of Ed was usually an office in the school, whereas today, the Board of Ed bldg is often bigger than the school. I don't have to wonder where the dollars taxed for education are going.

Everyone will agree, an educated youth is a boon to the community, but the lack of education is indirectly proportional to the self worth of today's students.

Is your school somehow different that the rest of the country?

[Dania]

You're right....it's really the Canadian-Australian Bridge Project. Would you now care to donate to the REAL cause? If so, here is the address:

CanAus BP
c/o Weeskam Ugud
2020 Preseit Rd.
Atlantic City, NJ 08401

(we accept checks, money orders and CASH)

[ponch21]

I am confused with what you mean by the board of ed. We have a state board of ed., and I am not sure exactly what they do. Is this what you mean?

Barbara, I am not calling you a liar. It is an old saying that just means beware of statistics and what they actually mean.

Ritalin is a prescribed drug by medical professionals. That is a discussion for a different day and a different thread.

That is great that Spelling Bee champs are homeschooled. If I had one to one time with my students, I am sure that I could make them proficient at anything you wanted me to. My wife and I (both teachers) actually joke that we will homeschool my son. He is showing a lot of potential at the ripe age of 2 and 1/2. I honestly don't think that the school system is going to be stimulating enough for him. Then we will supplement him when he comes home.

My point is that most homeschoolers keep their kids home because of social reasons rather than academic ones.

The following quote shows how much you respect today's youth, "students were actually educated, had few pregnancies, were not wanded or walking through metal detectors on the way in the building, were generally well behaved and had poise, posture, brains and in general, easy to converse with as well as interesting." I was always taught that if someone doesn't respect me, than I don't need to show much respect to them. Perhaps your perspective on youth is a self-fulfilling prophesy. I love the kids I work with. I find them to be quite engaging if you give them a chance. Even the "thugs" have quite a bit to say when they think you are actually listening to them and not judging them.

[Westbrook]

We homeschool for the only constitutionally protected reason so adjudicated by SCOTUS in Yoder vs. Ohio in 1973: free exercise of religion.

[Barbara Stanley]

Ponch21
You cannot separate drugs from public schools because that is where they are not only pushed, but dispensed. It is one big reason to homeschool by itself.

In short: the drug co's buy the legislator, they write the legislation that gives tax money to support the in-school drug program for "at-risk" (their designation, and if ever the alphabet was turned on its head, look to the NEA and their writings!) children. Quite the conflict of interest.

I had an average of 30-32 kids in all of my classes in elementary school and we all learned to read, to write, to cognize, to compute. Your argument about one-on-one ratios is bogus.

Every Monday we were given the vocabulary list, every Friday we had spelling tests and only a few kids didn't score very highly and this was followed by the other subjects that round out an education.

We respected our teachers, did not talk on cell phones or to each other in class, pretty much had our work completed on time and for the most part, learned very well. We had a dress code and none of the girls dressed like hookers nor the boys like shoplifters in those baggy shoplifting pants, nor did we wear 'gang' colours, expose our bellies or act in a manner that displayed blatant disregard for comportment. And those of us who did carry pocket Boy Scout or, as in my case, Girl Scout knives, never used them on each other.

What evidence do you have that homeschoolers are kept home for social reasons? It has not been my experience from the parents I have had write to me when I wrote about this subject. To be absolutely factual, the number one reason was academic.

It is not a matter "of respect" for today's youth, but observation of a failing public school system, run by and for unions and the corruption they engender. The students are the victims here.

Respect has nothing to do with how today's student's are too often illiterate, ignorant yet promoted and graduated, still ending sentences with prepositions and with no concept of number in subject/verb agreement, just two things that are rampant in not only today's youth, but people a decade or two older.
What it is is
There's many ways
Um, you know, like, etc.

The contrast of homeschooled students and public schooled students is obvious.

And, it was a terribly cheap shot on your part to trash me with that crack about my so-called (although I have no idea how you would know this) "self-fufilling prophesy."
Could you please elucidate just what you mean by this?
I would be interested in hearing it. Just what is my self-fufilling prophesy? Are you reading something into my words that is not there? Are you taking the defensive tack of the guilty, when since you are inside the system should be working to change it, not defend it?

I fear your argument is based on ad hominem attack rather than fact. And that is a sign of a weak argument.
If you have the facts, argue the facts.
If you have no facts, attack?

My position on homeschooling is still based on factual evidence and so far, it has not been disputed. Students fare better in home schools, even though their parents still pay their government school taxes. That, in this time of two jobs to support a family, should speak loudest of all.

I offer these comments in respect for the topic.

[rbisrb2]

funny thing is, the students in my classroom who have active parents do quite well on national tests. It might have to do with the fact that I teach in MN, regarded,along with WI (where I attended public schools) and Iowa, as the best public education in the United States.

Do quite well on the national tests that have been dumbed down? What does that say about those who score in the middle? Why do a majority of those that go to college right out of high school have to take remedial courses? Why do they not qualify for technical jobs?
The public school system is dying.

You quoted the education system in Wisconsin, yeah, and so do the socialists that run WEAC. But guess what the little secret is, private school and home schooled children ALSO are graded in the SAT and ACT scores. They BRING UP THE SCORES OF THE PUBLIC SCHOOL DUMMIES. That is the reason that both the SAT and ACT websites say not to use the scores of each state as indicators of the educational standards of each state.

I can give you some fun games.

Geography game. Ask those geniuses that work behind McDonalds counters to tell you the capitol of states like Texas or Florida or California .

Math game. Have the same genius count the change out of the drawer without looking at the totals that the computer gives them.

Science game. Have the same genius tell you what E=MC squared means. Then ask what did Archimedes contribute to science, then ask what Newton contributed.

Drug game. Ask them what "huffing" is.

Sex game. Ask what is the best method to keep a pregnancy from happening.

Bet they can answer the last two, no problem!

And THAT my friend is WHY parents that love their kids will not send their children to the WACKED OUT PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

For you to agree would be to admit you are part of the problem.

[Longhorn_Platinum]

[ QUOTE ]
ponch21 said:
My wife and I (both teachers) actually joke that we will homeschool my son. He is showing a lot of potential at the ripe age of 2 and 1/2.My point is that most homeschoolers keep their kids home because of social reasons rather than academic ones.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://smilies.networkessence.net/s/cwm/3dlil/smirk.gif <font color="blue">That could have been written by me, except my wife &amp; I aren't joking. Our local government diploma mills are giving a substandard education. Even if a parent stays on top of his child to do the work, social promotion is pandemic. Many teachers are simply passing students from grade to grade, in response to the administration's pressure. Even if I stay on Xane's back to bring home As &amp; Bs, the grade inflation is so bad, that even high marks are misleading. I see entirely too many students in my Geometry classes that don't have basic math skills, or any real work habits. They think they will get a passing grade, merely by coming to class. Some of my colleagues have suggested that I put Xane into one of these failed institutions, &amp; supplement with more work when he comes home. Well, that's a pile of BISS. If I'm going to do that, I might as well keep him at home. His hours at "school" would be a total waste of time. Don't get me started on the trend to teach math with calculators, or how I was thrown out of the summer school program for refusing to allow my students to cheat. I honestly don't see how any public "school" teacher can send his child to a public "school". Even some of my colleagues have quiëtly told me that they, too, plan to homeschool, or send their children to a private school.</font>

[ QUOTE ]
My point is that most homeschoolers keep their kids home because of social reasons rather than academic ones.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://smilies.networkessence.net/s/cwm/3dlil/smirk.gif <font color="blue">I wouldn't be too sure about that.</font>

[Longhorn_Platinum]

[ QUOTE ]
rbisrb2 said:
Drug game. Ask them what "huffing" is.

Sex game. Ask what is the best method to keep a pregnancy from happening.

Bet they can answer the last two, no problem!

[/ QUOTE ]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon115.gif <font color="blue">No, actually, they'd probably lose the "Sex game". They'd probably think the answer is "condoms". (For all you Palm Beach demonicrats, the correct answer is "abstinence".)

http://smilies.networkessence.net/s/cwm/3dlil/smirk.gif As for your academic "games", KWES-TV (NBC-9) in Odessa, TX went around to some local high schools* a few years ago, &amp; asked seniors some basic questions:

"What four states border Texas?"
"What two countries border the United States?"
"What is 37% of 100?"
"How do you correct the sentence, 'Where is he at'?"

http://smilies.networkessence.net/s/cwm/3dlil/smirk.gif A shocking number of students didn't know the answers.

*Midland, Midland Lee, Odessa, Odessa Permian</font>

[rbisrb2]

No, LP, the answer IS condom's, just like evolution IS science, Don't Ya Know! I did not say the TRUTH, I said the correct answer, in Public Non-education they are not necessarily the same thing!

[DoctorDoom]

[ QUOTE ]
My point is that most homeschoolers keep their kids home because of social reasons rather than academic ones.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's an intolerable imposition on a liberal to ask for evidence to support an allegation, but would you care to back that up?

[Longhorn_Platinum]

[ QUOTE ]
Barbara Stanley said:
My mother's "professional educator" for algebra goofed off during class and let each student grade his or her own papers every day. Needless to say, passing grades were abundant in that class.

Teaching is an honorable profession, but not all teachers are honorable and not all teachers are teaching.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://smilies.networkessence.net/s/cwm/3dlil/smirk.gif <font color="blue">In my district, such teachers are rewarded. My (former) summer school position was taken from me, &amp; given to a teacher who read the newspaper, while the kids watched TV. How do I know? I walked into the room, &amp; saw it with my own eyes. As for grading papers, my department held a meeting a few years ago, &amp; decided to make it a department requirement for teachers to not grade daily assignments. I, alone, fought this absurdity, &amp; managed to retain the right to grade my own students's papers. I'm the only teacher in the department who does this, &amp; even as I type this, one of my colleagues might be losing a good student, because the girl's mother wants her to have a teacher who grades papers. I've heard several parent complaints over the past couple of years about teachers not grading papers, but nobody's budging on the issue.</font>

[ QUOTE ]
The 2000-2001 school year was a bad one for socialization skills at Central High School. For 939 students, there were 547 suspensions, the school reported.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://smilies.networkessence.net/s/cwm/3dlil/smirk.gif <font color="blue">Oh, but don't you know, homeschoolers are deprived of social skills. I've had two students in the last two years who were homeschooled, until they entered high school. They were both very well behaved students, sometimes surrounded by public "schooled" hooligans who simply didn't know when to shut up, or how to stay seated. Of course, when the homeschool opponents talk about social skills, they're not really talking about how well a student behaves. That leaves the rest of us wondering if they know what they're talking about. On second thought, I don't wonder. They don't know what they're talking about.</font>

[PeteS_in_CA]

ponch,

We've homeschooled our children from day 1, now in our 16th year. There certainly are some excellent educators in PSs, and I'll take your word for it that you are among them. Sadly, they do not, nationally, pervade government schools. As another excellent PS educator here on FC, Longhorn, can tell you, some such excellent educators have to fight both student apathy and administrative undermining.

The c___ Barbara is describing, the attacks on homeschoolers by "educators" is too real and groundless. More to the point, those educrats and "educator" should stop wasting their time and taxpayers' money so they can focus on improving government schools. Misdirection is easier, though, so that is what is being done.

FWIW, our initial reason for homeschooling was academic. We did not trust PSs. Other reasons, that might be called "social" - e.g. PSs undermining students' morals, student safety, wanting a stronger family - came later. I think you'll find that homeschoolers have many motives, and academics is one that is frequent cited.

[Barbara Stanley]

The first part of that quote,
"My mother's "professional educator" for algebra goofed off during class and let each student grade his or her own papers every day. Needless to say, passing grades were abundant in that class." wasn't a quote from me... Barbara Stanley

[Longhorn_Platinum]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon115.gif <font color="blue">I'd hate for this discussion to die, so I'm moving this to Religion, Culture, &amp; Education.</font>

[Tazeeyore]

I thought the purpose of education was for children to learn.

The real purpose of public education as concerns the NEA and their ilk has nothing to do with education. It is all about protecting teachers who are inept and unqualified to teach. It is also secondary to sucking dues from members to support the democrat party and their socialist agenda.

Some people have questioned the qualifications of the parents who are educating their children at home, saying that they are not as competent as professional educators.

Anyone who would question qualifications should read the story in the Sun Times about the 40% of teachers who could not pass the basic skills tests in the subject they were teaching! The ignorant leading the blind!!

[PeteS_in_CA]

[ QUOTE ]
If a family emphasized education, then kids will achieve. I have had many students tell me that all their parents expect is a D. How exactly is public education supposed to combat that?

[/ QUOTE ]

You believed those students? Did you bother to ask the parents? While I'm sure some of those students were telling the truth, I suspect that most were blowing dust in your eyes.

Schools here in CA have had an odd way of "battling" student indifference. For almost ten years the state mandated the "whole word" method of teaching reading (refried "look-say" from the '60s), which was disastrous for most students. Phonics was only used on the sly by teachers who understood the need for phonics instruction. Finally, after years of state-created disaster, the Superintendent of Public Instruction who mandated the use of the "whole word" method admitted its utter failure and allowed the use of hybrid phonics and "whole word". In Math, CA mandated use of the "new, new math" which de-emphasized getting correct answers, as long as students understood the "process" (how the /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon122.gif a student can truly "understand the process" without getting the right answer escapes me). CA has backed away from this some too, fortunately, though more quietly.

If ponch is still around, I doubt he will believe me when I say this, but I have great respect for the truly excellent educators in the PS system, but I doubt they are in the majority. We wouldn't risk the probability that our children would, in 13 years of PS, have at least one of the truly awful "educators" (who I also believe to be in the minority, though I had at least 3 back in the 60s and 70s) in the system, and thus we homeschooled our children.

[DoctorDoom]

[ QUOTE ]
In Math, CA mandated use of the "new, new math" which de-emphasized getting correct answers, as long as students understood the "process"...

[/ QUOTE ]
I'd like to see the faces of those witless buffoons if the people that pay them understood the "process" of calculating their pay but were about $200 low.

[MaximumSam]

If all we want is right answers, we can teach kids how to use a calculator. If we want kids to understand math, we have to teach them the process of doing math.

[rbisrb2]

Ok, Sam wants idiots to build his house for him, hey they understand the process of building his house, but the walls don't line up, the fondation lacks the amount of concrete, the water pipes are uphill, the electrical uses 14 guage wiring for the recepticles and 12 guage for the lighting and the black wires tide together and white wires to the switches.

But, hey, they know the process!

[MaximumSam]

Wouldn't you want your carpenter to know how to build a house rather than just knowing what a house looks like?

[Longhorn_Platinum]

[ QUOTE ]
MaximumSam said:
If all we want is right answers, we can teach kids how to use a calculator. If we want kids to understand math, we have to teach them the process of doing math.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://smilies.networkessence.net/s/cwm/3dlil/smirk.gif [b]<font color="blue">If I want my students to get right answers, I'll teach them the process of doing math. If I want to preclude them from understanding the process of doing math, I'll teach them how to use a calculator. To put it another way, if I teach a student how to do math when he is a beginner, then years later, he can learn how to use a calculator, even the most advanced one, in a few days. If I give him a calculator while he is still a beginner, he will never learn math. Take it from me, Sam. I've taught math for ten years, &amp; I can see how much damage calculators are really doing.

[rbisrb2]

Sam,

The problem with the process that we are discussing is giving points for WRONG ANSWERS.
I wan't my carpenter to know how to use a tape measure, how to read blueprints, how to lay out wall lines, how to lay out a wall, how to frame that wall, how to attach the ply to the outside walls and how to make things plumb and square.

I want my plumber to know how to lay out the sewage to flow downhill, how to properly solder copper or how to properly attach the new poly piping and fittings for no leaks.

I want my electrician to use the correct guage wiring and wire it correctly.

Close is NOT an option. If they don't do it right, even though they know the "PROCESS", THEY FAIL, and I get new ones and SUE THEM FOR SCREWING UP and costing me time and money and the non-use of property.

Sam, THAT IS THE REAL WORLD. We are suppose to be teaching them how to live in the REAL WORLD. Not coddle them in their ignorance.

Why do you have a problem with the correct way to do things? Because you would hope that people will treat you in a similar way and just give you good grades even though you don't give correct answers to the questions? It would make you feel better that way? You know the process, but you just don't get the way it is suppose to be, so you should get credit for effort? Just because you know how to color in the dots dosen't mean the dot that you colored in corresponds to the answer.
If a company hired you to drive a car to Denver this summer, you get in start the engine, put it in drive, run the tank low, fill it up, but you are headed east from Ohio. Should they pay you for your efforts and knowing the process?

Wow?

[Longhorn_Platinum]

http://mysmilies.com/cwmb/default/old.gif <font color="blue">I thought about that calculator thing today. As proof that calculators are dumbing down our kids mathematically, today I encountered several high school sophomores who didn't know how to write .5 as a fraction.</font>

[MaximumSam]

RB,

I wan't my carpenter to know how to use a tape measure, how to read blueprints, how to lay out wall lines, how to lay out a wall, how to frame that wall, how to attach the ply to the outside walls and how to make things plumb and square.

I want my plumber to know how to lay out the sewage to flow downhill, how to properly solder copper or how to properly attach the new poly piping and fittings for no leaks.

I want my electrician to use the correct guage wiring and wire it correctly.

Close is NOT an option. If they don't do it right, even though they know the "PROCESS", THEY FAIL, and I get new ones and SUE THEM FOR SCREWING UP and costing me time and money and the non-use of property.


Actually, no you won't. If they are 'close,' you will probably give them an opportunity to fix their error instead of suing and giving up the house. That's just how things are done. Regardless, I don't see what this has to do with math - kids are often told to memorize geometry formulas without them ever understanding how these formulas work. If a kid understands how the formulas work, he is more likely to remember them and use them correctly.

Why do you have a problem with the correct way to do things?

This is the correct way of doing things. If a kid works out a problem and clearly understands how to do the problem, but makes a small addition mistake, then it is dumb to give him the same amount of points as the kid who clearly didn't understand the problem.

Because you would hope that people will treat you in a similar way and just give you good grades even though you don't give correct answers to the questions?

Uh, no.

You know the process, but you just don't get the way it is suppose to be, so you should get credit for effort?

Yes.

Just because you know how to color in the dots dosen't mean the dot that you colored in corresponds to the answer.

If the question is 2x - 5 = 3x + 6, and I solve for X and I get 11 instead of -11, I think I should get more credit than the kid you gets 408.

If a company hired you to drive a car to Denver this summer, you get in start the engine, put it in drive, run the tank low, fill it up, but you are headed east from Ohio. Should they pay you for your efforts and knowing the process?

What does this have to do with math? Obviously, saying drive from point A to point B isn't that complicated. But learning trigonometry can be complex, and thus we should make less effort on finding little mistakes and more on making sure students understand the process.

I thought about that calculator thing today. As proof that calculators are dumbing down our kids mathematically, today I encountered several high school sophomores who didn't know how to write .5 as a fraction.


I am inclined to agree. I'm not sure what the goal behind using calculators is, except to speed up stuff. On the other hand, I think teaching students how to use a graphing calculator is pretty important.

[Tazeeyore]

If the question is 2x - 5 = 3x + 6, and I solve for X and I get 11 instead of -11, I think I should get more credit than the kid you gets 408.
Hummmm! lets see~~~~

2X-5=3X+6 2x-5=3x+6
2X=3X+11 so that -X=11 or so that 2x-11=3x
either way X=-11 -11=X DANGIT! Which is it????
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Some would say 408 but I don't know why???????????
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif

Oh yeah, public school teachers unions save the jobs of teachers who are inept in their subject areas!!!!!

[rbisrb2]

I understand the process of showing Sam simple logic and why he should stop thinking wrongheaded, but I seem to be unable to achieve the proper result. Therefore I have failed to achieve the proper result.

What could be the problem? The process, or the processee?

[MaximumSam]

You are the one saying the the kid who understands the problem and makes a simple mistake should be punished as equally as the kid who doesn't understand the problem. As evidence, you used your house. Somehow, I don't think logic is on your side.

[Longhorn_Platinum]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon115.gif <font color="blue">Actually, I usually give students about fifteen practice problems with each objecive. If a student understands the basic process, then (s)he should still get at least 11/15 correct, even in spite of small mental mistakes. The student who doesn't understand the process will earn a zero. The student who understands doesn't get the same points as the one who doesn't, although a small penalty is still the result of not paying careful attention to detail. As for the graphing calculator, I learned to graph with graph paper &amp; pencil. I understood it perfectly. Today's students watch those lines magically appear on the calculator screen, completely oblivious to their significance. There's just nothing like plotting the points by hand to clarify the process. If it were up to me, calculators would be prohibited, until the students get to Algebra II, &amp; have to work with cumbersome irrational numbers, such as logarithms. Extrapolating the "in-between" values on a logarithm or trigonometry table is unnecessary, now that we have a tool to give us a more precise calculation. Other than that, calculators are bad for math education.</font>

[MaximumSam]

Oh I agree about calculators at stages lower than advanced algebra. I meant at more advanced math classes, simply because graphing calculators have a lot of useful features that are somewhat inaccessible unless you put your mind to figuring it out. Basically, I meant in a college prep type class.

[Tazeeyore]

[ QUOTE ]
MaximumSam said:
Oh I agree about calculators at stages lower than advanced algebra. I meant at more advanced math classes, simply because graphing calculators have a lot of useful features that are somewhat inaccessible unless you put your mind to figuring it out. Basically, I meant in a college prep type class.

[/ QUOTE ]

<font color="red">OK Sam. I have listened to this debate for days and I see that you cannot understand the root cause, nor the root solution, to the inefficiency of our education system as it exists today. Let me put it in liberal terms that you may be able to grasp. Now listen carefully!

If our future, the cliche "children", as liberals use to further silly assinine agendas, cannot perform the basic math skills necessary to build a bridge or a building, how will we continue to be the most powerful nation on earth? Having said that, how will these "children" be able to construct simple geometric design concepts when, "global warming" which liberals are trying to force down everyones throat, without one iota of empirical data to prove this silly premise, comes to fruition and, according to liberal ideology, the world will end as we know it. How will calculators be of any value when we can no longer produce batteries or electricity to power them?

Given the doom and gloom forecast, prophetically espoused daily by liberals, that the world must return to the horse and buggy days to survive; how are they to build anything closely resembling structural integrity without calculations done for them by digital instruments? How will they build anything of substance without a clue as to the basic mathematical solutions because they don't have the basic skills needed to perform these calculations without the aid of calculators?

I hope you enjoy living in a tent without the benefit of air conditioning, heat or running water.

Realistically, your argument has zero merit just on the prophecy liberals portend, much less on any reasonable persons ability to use common sense to solve a mathematical problem necessary to build anything tangible. My only question to you Sam would be, would you live in a high-rise designed and constructed by people who have no basic skills to sucessfully complete such a project? And as to your assertion that college prep courses should teach algebra is ludicrous. Freshmen in high school should be taught these basic skills and they should be able to do Calculus and higher math by the time they are seniors. I had the opportunity to go to school with several students from India in 2001 and they didn't use calculators to do even the most complex analytical geometry problems while students from the US were having to take remedial math courses because they couldn't solve basic algebraic formulas. The Indian students were taught, "IN INDIA", to do these complex calculations by hand. No wonder we are so abysmally far behind third world countries in math and science. Liberal ideology will be the demise of this great country if it is allowed to destroy our children.</font>

[MaximumSam]

Somehow, I don't think teaching a kid to use a graphing calculator is a sign of liberal ideology causing the demise of our great country.

[DoctorDoom]

Knowing the processes without knowing how to apply them and obtaining correct solutions is worse than useless.

I know the processes involved in flight — lift, drag, thrust, weight, angle of attack, stall speed, the basic cockpit instrumentaion, etcetera. Would you want me piloting you somewhere if I got "almost" right answers? Know what happens when a pilot "almost" lands correctly or "almost" reaches the airport or has "almost" enough fuel?


There are cases in mathematics where absolutely correct answers cannot be obtained, e.g., the area of a one-inch radius circle due to PI being a transcendental number. In such cases, it's a matter of what degree of error is permissible.

Useless trivia: here's the value of PI as presented by my Win 98SE calculator:

3.14159265358979323846264338327950 (the 0 is not displayed, but it's there in the actual number).

The maximum error possible for this value is less than 1x10^-33, because no following value will change the 0 to a 1. To appreciate that number, if we assume the universe is exactly 15 billion years old and that one year = 31,556,925.51 seconds, the universe is 473,353,882,650,000,000 seconds old. If we calculated its age to an error of 1x10^-33, it would be accurate to 0.0000000000000047335388265 second.

Needless to say, such precision is meaningless, but it DOES involves "incorrect" numbers.


The problem with math teaching as being discussed here is that it involves real numbers for which exact answers are available, and the students are being credited for incorrect answers. Knowing the "process" is valueless if the student cannot use it to find a correct answer. In the decimal system, there is one and only one answer for 2+2 (in base-3 math, 2+2=11, and in base-4 math, 2+2=10, but that's another issue). If a student gets 3 or 5, s/he is wrong, period, regardless of whether s/he understands the addition "process".

Aside from teaching vital skills for the future, math also teaches discipline and logical thinking. Knowing there is one right answer to a problem mandates that the student apply whatever effort is required to get that answer. The ability to instill a structured, orderly way of thinking is as great a benefit of math as the ability to find the correct solution. Accepting erroneous answers is NOT helping a student.

Granted, some career fields don't require accuracy and logical thinking, but there are already too many lawyers.

[MaximumSam]

The problem with math teaching as being discussed here is that it involves real numbers for which exact answers are available, and the students are being credited for incorrect answers. Knowing the "process" is valueless if the student cannot use it to find a correct answer. In the decimal system, there is one and only one answer for 2+2 (in base-3 math, 2+2=11, and in base-4 math, 2+2=10, but that's another issue). If a student gets 3 or 5, s/he is wrong, period, regardless of whether s/he understands the addition "process".

Your example is clearly inapplicable. Someone who understands to process of addition probably would get 2+2 right, and if not, there is no way to differentiate between that student and the one who just guesses. However, at more advanced levels of math, where many steps are required, a simple mistake will be shown if a kid completes the whole process. It makes no sense to punish the kid who understands the problem the same as the kid who doesn't. That doesn't 'teach' anything.

Aside from teaching vital skills for the future, math also teaches discipline and logical thinking. Knowing there is one right answer to a problem mandates that the student apply whatever effort is required to get that answer. The ability to instill a structured, orderly way of thinking is as great a benefit of math as the ability to find the correct solution. Accepting erroneous answers is NOT helping a student.

Of course it is. You are making a jump from saying math is disciplined and logical - these are process the student must learn. A structured, orderly way of thinking is the process. The answer is only the final step in a long process, and if a student understands the process, he is more likely to get the right answer. If we are just worried about answers, we should just be teaching kids to use a calculator.

[Tazeeyore]

[ QUOTE ]
MaximumSam said:
Somehow, I don't think teaching a kid to use a graphing calculator is a sign of liberal ideology causing the demise of our great country.

[/ QUOTE ]

<font color="blue">You just proved my point Max. You don't "think"! This is the very ideology that is causing the demise of education and eventually this country. What is it about common sense and reasonable thought that liberals fear so much? Why do liberals always assume such vacuous positions with no reason or consequential thought concerning education and the future of our country?
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif
It isn't teaching them to use calculators that does the harm, it is "not" teaching them to solve the problems without calculators that harms. It is the insidious nature of liberal ideology to make everything easy for students so they can be promoted even without the skills they really need to be of value to society. It is the ludicrous nature of liberal ideology that created the abysmal policy of lowering standards that have placed our students in danger of becoming subserviant to others. It is the assinine, conceptually bankrupt ideology of liberals that give other nations students an overwhelming advantage over our students. It is this falacious liberal ideology that will eventually cause our demise due to stupidity and ignorance.</font>

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon125.gif

[MaximumSam]

Well, as I said, I don't think calculators should be used until a student reaches advanced stages of math where simple calculations are not the goal. Furthermore, since graphing calculators are an excellent tool, a student who knows how to use one is well equipped for college. Hence, teaching a kid how to use one would be good for a college prep class.

[Tazeeyore]

[ QUOTE ]
MaximumSam said:
Well, as I said, I don't think calculators should be used until a student reaches advanced stages of math where simple calculations are not the goal. Furthermore, since graphing calculators are an excellent tool, a student who knows how to use one is well equipped for college. Hence, teaching a kid how to use one would be good for a college prep class.

[/ QUOTE ]

<font color="blue">NO Max they are not good for college prep or any other class. They become a crutch with no purpose other than doing the work for the students. Save the calculator use for the engineers designing complex formulas where they are of value by saving time. Other than that, calculators are not good teaching methodology for any reason. Sorry but your argument is invalid.</font>

[MaximumSam]

NO Max they are not good for college prep or any other class. They become a crutch with no purpose other than doing the work for the students. Save the calculator use for the engineers designing complex formulas where they are of value by saving time. Other than that, calculators are not good teaching methodology for any reason. Sorry but your argument is invalid.

Again, I am not advocating we teach students how to do problems with a calculator. I have constantly said this isn't a good idea. However, they are an excellent tool, and they help students in advanced math, physics, applied science, etc. Therefore, teaching kids to use them in a college prep class is a good idea.

[Longhorn_Platinum]

http://mysmilies.com/cwmb/default/old.gif <font color="blue">If I can interject here, I'd like to pose a theory. Years ago, phonics was replaced with the "whole language" approach to learning reading. I have seen articles detailing how the whole language method not only didn't teach students to read properly, but even had a negative impact on their whole thinking processes. I believe that in time, it will be shown that using calculators in math classes has much the same impact, &amp; is inferior to teaching math with pencil &amp; paper. This year, more than ever, I am wrestling with students who cannot function without the little plastic box, &amp; most of them are unable to do mathematical applications, since they have no thinking skills with which to translate a "story problem" into numbers. I'm afraid that even if research were to prove my theory correct, the results would be suppressed, in exchange for bribes from the calculator manufacturers.

http://smilies.networkessence.net/s/cwm/3dlil/smirk.gif One more observation. Here in Texas, we are replacing the TAAS test with the TAKS test. On the new test, students will be not just allowed, but required, to use expensive graphing calculators. If some education bureaucrat in Austin isn't getting a substantial kickback on this requirement, then he missed an opportunity. Meanwhile, the Texas Education Bureaucracy has indirectly admitted failure in math education, admitting that we have to give the students calculators to pass a test.

http://mysmilies.com/cwmb/default/old.gif As for those graphing calculators that Sam swears by, all of my students used them last year in Algebra I. The overwhelming majority of my students don't remember squat about what they were supposed to have learned in algebra. So much for the government lie that we are enhancing education with "modern technology".</font>

[rbisrb2]

"It makes no sense to punish the kid who understands the problem the same as the kid who doesn't."

Uh, yes it does. Tell that to a cop that gives a ticket to a person who knows that the speed limit is 35 and they were going 55 and someone who doesn't know it. The VALUE of the punishment is the same, UNLESS the cop has mercy on the fellow who didn't know and drops the speed to 45mph on the ticket.

It is obvious that a person who doesn't understand some rules of algebra needs remedial training, should have help IF HE WANTS TO LEARN.

At this point Sam is playing the devils advocate.

[Tazeeyore]

<font color="blue">Max, a perfect example of why details are important and knowing how to think is critical was just in the news. A "clerical" mistake cost a 17 year old heart lung transplant recipient her life. Knowing the process and using the process are two completely different things. If you don't use it you lose it! Same ideology that proves once again that you argument is invalid.</font>

[DoctorDoom]

[ QUOTE ]
Your example is clearly inapplicable. Someone who understands to process of addition probably would get 2+2 right, and if not, there is no way to differentiate between that student and the one who just guesses.

[/ QUOTE ]
Come now, silly rabbit. In either case, the answer is still wrong. However, the one who understands the "process" will not consistently be wrong (in other words, not a liberal), whereas the guesser WILL be. An isolated instance proves no rule. A pattern does.

[ QUOTE ]
However, at more advanced levels of math, where many steps are required, a simple mistake will be shown if a kid completes the whole process. It makes no sense to punish the kid who understands the problem the same as the kid who doesn't. That doesn't 'teach' anything.

[/ QUOTE ]
Who's calling for punishment? Has anyone here recommended flogging or running blindfolded and naked through a cactus garden? The objection is to rewarding error. When a problem has exactly one possible answer, every other answer is wrong. The notion of giving credit for wrong answers is typical liberal, touchy-feely, "Don't wound their fragile psyches!" bullshit that does not teach, but only panders.

[Longhorn_Platinum]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon127.gif <font color="blue">Has anyone heard from Barbara, lately?</font>

[DoctorDoom]

It HAS been quite a stretch since her last visit. Her website (http://www.bluestarbase.org/) is still active.

[Charity]

Hello all from a fellow Homeschool mom of six years. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif We love it today more than ever. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[DesertFox]

Bump

[DesertFox]

The thing about knowing basic math without a calculator is this: It's easy to punch in wrong on a calculator and have no idea your answer is wrong -- unless you can estimate in your head (or with paper and pencil) the general reach of the answer.

If you understand rounding and can add/subtract/multiply/divide even reasonably well, it's easy to know when your answer is in the ballpark. You then use the calculator to get the precise answer.

Same reasoning applies to higher math. If you grasp the essentials, you can estimate the ballpark answer and know when your calculator answer couldn't be right.

[Longhorn_Platinum]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/serious3.gif <font color="blue">Reliance on calculators is a huge mistake. I've seen kids who couldn't do basic math, so they always used a calculator. Unfortunately, they didn't know how to apply the math, since they had no real concept of it.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/serious3.gif As an aside, I once had to teach a class of sophomores that if they see ".33333333" on a calculator, that means 1/3.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif Soon after, they did a problem where their calculators showed ".66666666", &amp; assumed the answer was 1/6.</font>

[ThomasIsUnderrated]

[ QUOTE ]
Longhorn_Platinum said:


/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/serious3.gif As an aside, I once had to teach a class of sophomores that if they see ".33333333" on a calculator, that means 1/3.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif Soon after, they did a problem where their calculators showed ".66666666", &amp; assumed the answer was 1/6.</font>[/b]

[/ QUOTE ]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon133.gif

This cracked me up! It's sad that it really happened, but it's hilarious just the same!

[HomeschoolrsRUs]

As a homeschooler for eleven years I can speak with assurance and authority when I say we homeschool for academic reasons, social reasons, and reasons of our own, but it was the academic arena which was the tazer gun to our behinds in making the final decision to homeschool. We were told by a government teacher before our child even entered kindergarten that he would never, ever read. We'll we weren't about to take the word of a total stranger who did not even KNOW our child over his potential. He just finished Orwell's 1984 and will be beginning Bill Bennet's Book of Virtues next week.
Parents are the ONLY one's with a 100% vested interest in their children growing mentally, physically, academically, and spiritually -- no teacher can boast a higher interest. What makes no sense to me is why those who do NOT homeschool are bothered by those of us who DO. Isn't the point for children to learn and grow into productive, happy citizens? If we're doing the job, does it really matter that we do it a different way?
Homeschooling is NOT for everyone, and most homeschoolers DO realize that. But there are more options for everyone now -- it is time for the government strangle-hold on "education" to be broken. New innovative education opportunities are just waiting to spring forth, and this can ONLY help the CHILDREN. Aren't they the one's we want to succeed anyway?

[Timberwolf]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/claps.gif AMEN!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/claps.gif