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sunsettommy
11-15-2005, 08:17 PM
From PROMETHEUS,

November 14, 2005

Why Does the Hockey Stick Debate Matter?

Post by Ross McKitrick

Roger Pielke Jr. has posed a challenge to Michael Mann and us to briefly explain why each of us thinks the ongoing hockey stick debate matters.


Another excerpt:
So: why does it matter?

1. It matters because it concerns the validity of an influential scientific paper. Mann’s 1998 and 1999 papers (which I’ll call “MBH”) have been heavily cited and highly influential. The paleoclimate field seems to have organized itself around them: other papers since then have gained prominence in proportion as they appear to back up MBH, whereas papers that contradict it have little prospect of being published or are relegated to lower-profile outlets. A popular icon in paleoclimate circles these days is what can be called a “spaghetti graph,” showing a pastiche of climate reconstructions from a small group of authors who call themselves the “Hockey Team”. They agree on few details, other than that the Medieval Warm Period is not as warm as the 20th Century.

Yet MBH turns out to have major flaws that fundamentally undermine its conclusions. These issues are interesting in their own right because MBH is a famous paper. But they also have wider scientific implications. MBH was “helped” along to its conclusions by some very convenient decisions about small changes to methodology, small edits to data series and not-so-small decisions about using contaminated bristlecone data. Maybe some of the other studies that appear to confirm MBH were also “helped” along so they would appear to agree with it. Efforts to evaluate the whole spaghetti graph has encountered maddening secrecy by the other authors concerning their data and methods, just as with MBH. But enough has been discovered to support a couple of assertions.

(a) The other spaghetti graph diagrams lack robustness. They all depend on delicate editing of weak data and just-so methodology. None are al dente: these are very soft noodles, and a plateful of weak results does not add up to a strong conclusion.

(b) There is an unexamined problem of spurious statistics in multiproxy constructions. Hockey team methods mine autocorrelated proxy data for simple correlations with autocorrelated temperature data. It is a classic recipe for spurious results, as has long been known in econometrics following the seminar studies of Granger, Engle and Phillips. What was predictable on theoretical grounds is now emerging empirically: proxies that extend past 1980 have no explanatory power for recent temperatures. And by implication, the existing corpus of multiproxy studies provides spurious information about the historical climate. Despite occasional claims of technical rigour, none of the spaghetti graph lines come from papers where the spurious regression problem was dealt with.

2. It matters because it exposes the uncomfortable reality about journal peer review. MBH(98) was published in Nature, considered by some the world’s “leading” scientific journal. Nature never verified that data were correctly listed: as it happens they weren’t. Nature never verified that data archiving rules were followed: they weren’t. Nature never verified that methods were accurately stated: they weren’t. Nature never verified that stated methods yield the stated results: they don’t. Nature undertook only minimal corrections to its publication record after notification of these things, and even allowed authors to falsely claim that their omissions on these things didn’t affect their published results.

In light of this, it is far past time for a wide-ranging discussion on what ‘peer review’ actually is. Policymakers routinely appeal to it as some kind of quality assurance guarantee. But obviously it isn’t. It serves some purpose internal to the world of scientific publishing, but policymakers’ beliefs about what peer review guarantees are for the most part sheer fantasy.

3. It matters because it exposes the uncomfortable reality about the IPCC. The IPCC’s use of the hockey stick was not incidental: it is prominent throughout the 2001 report. Yet they did not subject it to any independent checking: revealing an astonishingly cavalier attitude to the quality of their case. This raises the question of whether anything in the report was subject to serious, independent checking. They allowed chapter authors to heavily promote their own work with little or no oversight. They published false claims about the hockey stick’s statistical robustness and have never made any effort to retract them. On the basis of the MBH claims, their 2001 report reversed their 1990 conclusions about the MWP, and over-rode their 1995 warnings about not relying on bristlecone data, in order to promote the conclusions implied by the hockey stick. They encouraged governments around the world to rely heavily on a graph they themselves had not independently checked. One reason the hockey stick debate matters is because it exposes as worthless the guarantees given up to now about why the world should rely on the IPCC.

In this light I have no patience for the reaction by scientists to the Barton investigation. Why shouldn’t legislators begin asking questions about how the IPCC (and its allies in the science community) produce their reports? Policymakers have strong evidence that the IPCC process did not actually involve the rigorous checks and balances that they boasted of when releasing their 2001 report. It would be negligent of lawmakers not to open a wide-ranging investigation of this. Anyone who thinks the Barton investigation is unnecessary must think that IPCC reports don’t really matter: but they do, which is one reason why the hockey stick debate also does.

4. It matters because it exposes the uncomfortable reality about how governments use scientific information Canada (and many other countries) used the hockey stick heavily in their promotion of the Kyoto Accord. It is still prominent in government publications. Canada boasts of having spent $3 billion on climate change initiatives, much of it going to research. Yet for all the billions of dollars spent, and for all the proliferation of staff working on the matter, no one in government checked the hockey stick. Even when Canada’s chief climate science advisor and the Prime Minister’s own scientific advisor were personally informed about flaws in the hockey stick, no effort was made to remedy the government’s error. We have never been contacted by a single federal government scientist or other staff member for information on this topic, even though Environment Canada has in the past made heavy use of the hockey stick and more recently has issued communications supposedly providing “expert” commentary on my work, commentary that is predictably fallacious. Governments apparently use science when it suits them, as a promotional policy tool, with little regard to the facts of the matter. Perhaps it is naïve of me to have expected otherwise, but the realization still disappoints.

5. It matters because it exposes an uncomfortable reality about the culture of climate science. It took two outsiders to do all this work. Climate scientists in the field ignored the glaring problems in MBH for five years, and only seemed to get engaged after Stephen McIntyre and I began publishing our work. Since then the “engagement” of climate scientists has primarily consisted of ridicule, nitpicking, obstruction and catcalls from prominent scientists, especially those involved with the IPCC and the University Corporation for Atmospheric Research on Colorado. The few who have offered support tend to do so privately or anonymously.

More here,

http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/archives/climate_change/000631why_does_the_hockey_.html
__________________________________________________ ____________
Read the comments posted in reaction to the above commentary.It is a hoot!

DesertFox
11-15-2005, 10:07 PM
Gee, as I read along I couldn't help but think he was talking about evolutionist "scientists" and their much-ballyhooed peer review crappola regime.

sunsettommy
11-16-2005, 06:01 PM
I noticed that two apologists for sloppy climate research have been absent lately.

I Have posted a few revelations that the IPCC has apparently been constructed on a lot of bogus papers.I understand why they are reluctant to respond.THEY HAVE NOTHING TO REBUTE WITH!

:whistle:

aaron11
11-16-2005, 08:33 PM
Gee, as I read along I couldn't help but think he was talking about evolutionist "scientists" and their much-ballyhooed peer review crappola regime.

Consensus, consensus, consensus!

Niet, niet, niet!

Hile Hitler, hile Hitler, hile Hitler!

markus3622
11-17-2005, 05:20 AM
I noticed that two apologists for sloppy climate research have been absent lately.

I Have posted a few revelations that the IPCC has apparently been constructed on a lot of bogus papers.I understand why they are reluctant to respond.THEY HAVE NOTHING TO REBUTE WITH!

:whistle:

I've not responded because it's a similar variant of the evolution/creation threads, but on a slightly smaller scale. I don't really think you're going to change your opinion, based on the evidence. You're clearly capable of researching a lot of the material that's out there, and that's great, but you only seem to be quoting the few sources that support your thesis.

Anyway, a few weeks ago, I found out I'd got a job as a government science advisor. During the interview, I was asked about nuclear power, and who I'd speak to, if I wanted to write a balanced report on nuclear power. Well, I mentioned that I'd speak to experts within the government, the top researchers at the top universities, people at the Trade Department, and the top scientific bodies. I'd make a point of listening to a few mavericks, and mention their views, but they wouldn't take up too much space. I got the job, so they obviously thought it was a sensible way to tackle a question

Wikipedia can be a pretty good source for getting a point across (although I wouldn't use it in a government report).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_opinion_on_climate_change

Essentially, the thesis is supported by the IPCC, joint science academies statement, US National Research Council, AMS, AGU, the papers unearthed in the Oreske paper, and so on, and so on.

Now, there are quite a few lawyers, politicians and so on who are skeptical of the consensus position, but there are a handful of known skeptics that are actually qualified

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_scientists_opposing_global_warming_consens us

These include Fred Singer, Lindzen, Soon and Seitz, although they don't agree with each other. Many skeptics have clashes of interest with funding from big business and right wing think tanks.

If I were to write a balanced report on climate change for the government, you can see why I would be tempted to place a lot of credence on the opinion of the thousands of experts who agree, rather than the handful of skeptics, can't you?

sunsettommy
11-17-2005, 07:38 AM
I've not responded because it's a similar variant of the evolution/creation threads, but on a slightly smaller scale. I don't really think you're going to change your opinion, based on the evidence. You're clearly capable of researching a lot of the material that's out there, and that's great, but you only seem to be quoting the few sources that support your thesis.

Anyway, a few weeks ago, I found out I'd got a job as a government science advisor. During the interview, I was asked about nuclear power, and who I'd speak to, if I wanted to write a balanced report on nuclear power. Well, I mentioned that I'd speak to experts within the government, the top researchers at the top universities, people at the Trade Department, and the top scientific bodies. I'd make a point of listening to a few mavericks, and mention their views, but they wouldn't take up too much space. I got the job, so they obviously thought it was a sensible way to tackle a question

Wikipedia can be a pretty good source for getting a point across (although I wouldn't use it in a government report).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_opinion_on_climate_change

Essentially, the thesis is supported by the IPCC, joint science academies statement, US National Research Council, AMS, AGU, the papers unearthed in the Oreske paper, and so on, and so on.

Now, there are quite a few lawyers, politicians and so on who are skeptical of the consensus position, but there are a handful of known skeptics that are actually qualified

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_scientists_opposing_global_warming_consens us

These include Fred Singer, Lindzen, Soon and Seitz, although they don't agree with each other. Many skeptics have clashes of interest with funding from big business and right wing think tanks.

If I were to write a balanced report on climate change for the government, you can see why I would be tempted to place a lot of credence on the opinion of the thousands of experts who agree, rather than the handful of skeptics, can't you?

I noticed you said nothing about what McKitrick and McIntire said.

Thank you for proving my previous post.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

markus3622
11-17-2005, 09:01 AM
No, I didn't tackle M&M, in the same way you've been unprepared to tackle the thorny issue of why virtually every expert body to discuss climate change has come to the exact same conclusion, or why many of the skeptics have clashes of interest with oil companies, and whether that's a good thing or not.

I'm also confused as why you've focused on M&M, as if it's the keystone of the theory - it isn't.

It's just that I have more important things to do than discuss climate change on the internet. I wouldn't mind so much if I thought there was a remote possibility that you would change your mind based on the evidence. You're clearly a smart guy, it's just that the evidence seems so stacked against you. NT will repost the same tired debunked theory every few weeks, as if we didn't remember it last time.

Perhaps I'll ask you this. If you were to write a report for President Bush on climate change, whose opinion would you want? The National Academy of Sciences or a motley collection of "freelance" experts?

aaron11
11-17-2005, 10:04 AM
Markus wrote: "During the interview, I was asked about nuclear power, and who I'd speak to, if I wanted to write a balanced report on nuclear power. Well, I mentioned that I'd speak to experts within the government, the top researchers at the top universities, people at the Trade Department, and the top scientific bodies."


You don't think that telling a bureaucracy what they wanted to hear had anything to do with it? This issue will hurt working people, not Big Brother. Why do you think the vast majority of Gub'mint workers are liberals?

markus3622
11-17-2005, 11:08 AM
Of course, I was telling them what they wanted to hear - that doesn't mean what they wanted to hear was wrong.

It doesn't really matter who you're writing for. If you wanted to write a balanced report on any scientific issue (for a congressman, for a goverment minister, for your local bowling club), you would be better off speaking to the experts than those not qualified in the area. I mentioned in the interview that you'd listen to the pressure groups (such as the right wing think tanks), but you wouldn't place the highest value on their "science". It just makes sense to go to the experts.

aaron11
11-17-2005, 11:14 AM
Man and animal reproduce their own kind, so does Big Brother.

markus3622
11-17-2005, 11:19 AM
Exactly, I'll be off, writing reports full of liberal propaganda! And there's nothing you can do to stop me.

By the way, I didn't get your name and number!

Keith J
11-17-2005, 12:46 PM
Quit confusing the issue...until the issue of missing carbon is accurately incorporated into the current GW models, the conclusion of rising temperatures is patently wrong.

ALL carbon we are releasing is organic and at one time, was part of the atmosphere as carbon dioxide. And there is TWICE as much carbon in methane clathrates as there is in ALL OTHER FOSSIL FUELS COMBINED! This fact makes the currently understood carbon cycle invalid. Lead balloon is a good analogy.

There is a negative feedback mechanism associated with rising sea levels and clathrate formation, given higher photoplankton depositation, greater hydrostatic columns and further thermal stratification. Since we have been exiting a minor glaciation period with high sea levels, these clathrate deposits ARE significant carbon sinks.

But to the dillentante climatologist, the ignorance of ice than sinks and traps 600 tiimes its volume of methane is but a minor point.

Naturalized-Texan
11-17-2005, 02:44 PM
markus is still in a state of denial. I doubt if he is capable of facing reality.

Keith J
11-17-2005, 02:54 PM
Funny how some who espouse evolution also claim this planet is a fragile ecosystem. The two beliefs CANNOT coexist because evolution demands an inheritly stable climate that can recover from external catastrophic disturbances like the K-T boundary impact as evidenced by iridium deposited between these two layers.

Naturalized-Texan
11-17-2005, 04:12 PM
Funny how some who espouse evolution also claim this planet is a fragile ecosystem. The two beliefs CANNOT coexist because evolution demands an inheritly stable climate that can recover from external catastrophic disturbances like the K-T boundary impact as evidenced by iridium deposited between these two layers.
I must admit that I don't understand everything you write, but good old-fashioned common sense dictates that human activities couldn't possibly be causing global warming. The fact that there is no scientific evidence that global warming is being caused by human activities confirms that common sense.

Keith J
11-17-2005, 06:59 PM
Just a blub on the tube but researchers in Japan and the US concluded solar variation does indeed play a most significant role in global temperatures...which brings me to the question if the doomsday climatologists know how insulation functions...

Here is the short test. No reference materials allowed.

1. List all the mechanisms of heat transfer. Explain all and give each an example.

2. A specific heat transfer mechanism has several modes. Explain the critical difference between sensible and latent as it applies along with mass transfer.


There. 2 questions which any graduate mechanical/chemical engineering student could pass. Also most chemists and physicists. But not climatologists.

Naturalized-Texan
11-18-2005, 01:32 PM
Why Does the Hockey Stick Debate Matter?

Because the "Hockey Stick" is a massive fraud.

sunsettommy
11-18-2005, 03:37 PM
markus is still in a state of denial. I doubt if he is capable of facing reality.

I noticed that he will not answer McIntire's commentary.

Could it be because Nature did fail on so many levels as claimed,on accepting the "Hockey Stick" paper?

I noticed Bob Arctor has been "lurking" but not biting this.He is a reader of Nature I think.

I noticed that keithJ is trying to get these two clueless boys to wonder how heat is transferred and how the POLAR regions can never get warmer at all by itself where negligible NET heating is going on there.

dPrasse
11-18-2005, 03:48 PM
Come on , now ... we need to give these "climatologists" a break ...

we all know that there is no truth in science ... only falsifable theories ... :whistle:

sunsettommy
11-19-2005, 04:08 PM
No, I didn't tackle M&M, in the same way you've been unprepared to tackle the thorny issue of why virtually every expert body to discuss climate change has come to the exact same conclusion, or why many of the skeptics have clashes of interest with oil companies, and whether that's a good thing or not.

The evershifting story you use.:whistle:

You have actually tackled M&M several times before.Right in this forum! The real reason why you suddenly wimp out this time,is because you can not answer them on their claims against NATURE.Nature accepted a paper that had a LOT of problems in it.Mann has declined his opportunity to write a commentary.I think knows he can not answer either.

I did tackle the "thorny issue" a number of times on this website.Heck I even mentioned a number of SKEPTICS.:hah: Gosh THOUSANDS of them!

I have also mentioned that those who favor the CO2 Global Warming have funding from biased agencies,such as the U.N. and Environmentalists.A body that has demonstrated their hostility against the United States.

Yup what a fairyteller you are!

I'm also confused as why you've focused on M&M, as if it's the keystone of the theory - it isn't.

No what you really mean is that you have no idea what the HELL is going on with the Hockey Stick controversy.Maybe if you pull your head out the clouds....or alternative location,you might notice that M&M have published a number of papers and postings on their website explaining IN DETAIL WHAT IS WRONG WITH THE DAM HOCKEY STICK PAPER! It is obvious you do not read them.Just like the Catholic Church refused to look through Galileo's Telescope. You parade your bias openly and stupidly.

Both you and Bob Arctor had a golden opportunity to show that M&M was wrong on what they say about Nature's failure on a number of points on how they handles Mann's and co. paper.Nope instead you give me this SH!T.Hell Bob Arctor reads Nature.He should be able to blow away M&M.

In fact he could make a posted comment on M&M's Commentary on the website,showing that their claims against Nature is wrong.

By the way it is NOT A THEORY! It is a credible criticism of a published paper.Where did I ever say that M&M's Commentary's was a theory?:uhh:

DUH!

It's just that I have more important things to do than discuss climate change on the internet. I wouldn't mind so much if I thought there was a remote possibility that you would change your mind based on the evidence. You're clearly a smart guy, it's just that the evidence seems so stacked against you. NT will repost the same tired debunked theory every few weeks, as if we didn't remember it last time.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Yeah right after YOU did maybe at least 100 postings on it.

What you really mean is that me,a layman has made you at times look stupid and ignorant,you supposedly a scientist.(My doubt grows every week)

Perhaps I'll ask you this. If you were to write a report for President Bush on climate change, whose opinion would you want? The National Academy of Sciences or a motley collection of "freelance" experts?

You asked me this question because you have nothing to counter M&M with.Might as well be a beethead,it is so very you.

sad.

Naturalized-Texan
11-20-2005, 09:20 AM
It's just that I have more important things to do than discuss climate change on the internet. I wouldn't mind so much if I thought there was a remote possibility that you would change your mind based on the evidence.
What evidence? There is NO scientific evidence that global warming is being caused by human activities. All you have ever posted is speculation and supposition based on invalid climate models.

You're clearly a smart guy, it's just that the evidence seems so stacked against you. NT will repost the same tired debunked theory every few weeks, as if we didn't remember it last time.
Your claim that you have debunked anything that I have posted is patently false. You have debunked nothing that I have ever posted on the subject of global warming. BTW, I have always posted the truth and the truth is always worth repeating.

Perhaps I'll ask you this. If you were to write a report for President Bush on climate change, whose opinion would you want? The National Academy of Sciences or a motley collection of "freelance" experts?
I would use the conclusion of the National Academy of Sciences that unanimously reported to President Bush in June 2001 that there are far too many uncertainties to determine whether global warming is being caused by human activities. You have forced me to prove that fact many times following your repeated false claims that the report stated otherwise.

Fortunately, President Bush based his decision to rescind the Kyoto Protocol on the unanimous conclusion contained in that NAS report.