Protecting life by taking it away

[HomeschoolrsRUs]

I know this doesn't relate to Schiavo type cases, but it IS relevant to the Culture of Death/Culture of Life argument. I think it is a brilliant observation regarding the consequences for taking a life.

Townhall.com :: Columns :: Protecting life by taking it away by Jeff Jacoby (http://www.townhall.com/opinion/columns/jeffjacoby/2005/12/12/178645.html)
Dec 12, 2005
Last month, by a vote of 237-4, the US Conference of Catholic Bishops adopted a pastoral statement calling for an end to the death penalty. The 20-page document -- "A Culture of Life and the Penalty of Death" -- makes a number of claims. Among them: that the execution of murderers "violates respect for human life and dignity," that it fuels a "cycle of violence [that] diminishes us all," and that "we have other ways to punish criminals and protect society." The bishops acknowledge in passing that Catholic teaching has never banned the death penalty outright or declared it "intrinsically evil." Nevertheless, they insist, since the modern state "has other non-lethal means to protect its citizens, the state should not use the death penalty."

They aren't breaking new theological ground. Pope John Paul II made a similar argument about the death penalty in his 1995 encyclical "Evangelium Vitae (The Gospel of Life)." But the new document is shockingly blunt in brushing aside the suffering of the victims, or the viciousness of the murder, as irrelevant to the question of capital punishment. "No matter how heinous the crime," it says, "if society can protect itself without ending a human life, it should do so."

Executing killers, in other words, has nothing to do with justice. No act of murder, however calculated or cruel or catastrophic, requires as a matter of sheer decency that the murderer make atonement by forfeiting his life. In the world according to bishops, the death penalty never balances the scales of moral judgment. Timothy McVeigh shouldn't have been executed. Ted Bundy shouldn't have been executed. Not even Osama bin Laden, with the blood of thousands on his hands, would deserve to be executed if we had him in our power.

[Patriot Heart]

Luckily they are not in charge.

[Wolfcounsel]

Taking the trash out is the highest form of public service, and that is all I have to say to people who don't think it's right to do so. But, go ahead and ask for more, you bleeding hearts out there.
:whine: :baby:

[TechnoPrincess]

To me there is a huge difference between punishing people who have willingly taken the life of another person and putting innocent people to death. I do not support vigilates going out and killing people, but I have no problem with the death penalty where the person has been found guilty in a court of law.

[jag]

To me there is a huge difference between punishing people who have willingly taken the life of another person and putting innocent people to death. I do not support vigilates going out and killing people, but I have no problem with the death penalty where the person has been found guilty in a court of law.

I feel the same way. The death penalty is society doing away with bad, not personal.

[S-T]

There were two extensive discussions about this topic on my forum. Rather than cut and paste the whole thing, here are the links:

http://multilevel.9.forumer.com/index.php?showtopic=40

http://multilevel.9.forumer.com/index.php?showtopic=39

[Trau]

Vengeance should never be a consideration of law or a Christian.

The death penalty is about vengeance.

[Trevelyan]

Vengeance should never be a consideration of law or a Christian.

The death penalty is about vengeance.

The mere fact that innocent people have been put to death is enough for me to oppose the death penalty. In my opinion, it is a bit hasty when you can never be 100% certain a person who has been found guilty actually commited the crime.

[Trau]

I think the case against capital punishment is overwhelming. Not only morally, but practically as well: it is not a good deterrent and is much more expensive than supporting a prisoner for the rest of his or her life.

[Wyatt_Junker]

Let's go a bit further then. The State has also mistakenly imprisoned people for sometimes up to 20, 30 years or more. You can never give that life back to them. It is gone. In some ways this is worse than a death penalty. Perhaps we should abolish prisons entirely. We can never be 100% certain about anyone's guilt, ever.

What's worse really? False imprisonment, a destroyed reputation, the forced buggery, the rage of injustice or a swift, merciful death penalty? The same argument against the death penalty which would apply 100% scrupulosity of an obsessive compulsive variety to capital cases with endless appeals should also apply to imprisonment period. Until it is, we need to abolish all prisons across the country.

[jag]

Vengeance should never be a consideration of law or a Christian.

The death penalty is about vengeance.
From the dictionary:

ven·geance http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/JPG/pron.jpg (https://secure.reference.com/premium/login.html?rd=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fsearch%3 Fq%3Dvengeance) ( P ) Pronunciation Key (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/ahd4/pronkey.html) (vhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/ebreve.gifnhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/prime.gifjhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/schwa.gifns)
n.
Infliction of punishment in return for a wrong committed; retribution.Works for me.

[Trevelyan]

Let's go a bit further then. The State has also mistakenly imprisoned people for sometimes up to 20, 30 years or more. You can never give that life back to them. It is gone. In some ways this is worse than a death penalty. Perhaps we should abolish prisons entirely. We can never be 100% certain about anyone's guilt, ever.

What's worse really? False imprisonment, a destroyed reputation, the forced buggery, the rage of injustice or a swift, merciful death penalty? The same argument against the death penalty which would apply 100% scrupulosity of an obsessive compulsive variety to capital cases with endless appeals should also apply to imprisonment period. Until it is, we need to abolish all prisons across the country.

Yes, but at least the person may have the chance to be a free man if the mistake is caught while they are still alive.

[Wyatt_Junker]

Yes, but at least the person may have the chance to be a free man if the mistake is caught while they are still alive.

Big deal.

Shut down all prisons until we have 100% integrity.

[dcanner]

The death penalty is about vengeance.

The death penalty is about JUSTICE.

[Trau]

Big deal.

Shut down all prisons until we have 100% integrity.

Your dismissal of his point doesn't negate its legitimacy.


Works for me.

Eye for an eye then, yes? Retribution and vengeance are evil.

.

The death penalty is about JUSTICE.

Justice is when the criminal is found guilty by a court of law and sentenced. It is when that criminal is kept from harming society.

Killing a criminal just so the family feels better is selfish and evil vengeance unbecoming of Christians who should be forgiving.

[HomeschoolrsRUs]

Justice is when the criminal is found guilty by a court of law and sentenced. It is when that criminal is kept from harming society.

The death penalty PERMANENTLY prevents that criminal from harming society -- even the one found within the walls of a prison (as MANY fatal crimes occur within the walls of said location). The death penalty is NOT about vengenance, it is about suitable punishment for crime(s) committed. One who negates (read terminates) the life of another, forfeits his own in return. There is NO other equitable punishment available.

[Trau]

The death penalty PERMANENTLY prevents that criminal from harming society

So does life without parole.

-- even the one found within the walls of a prison (as MANY fatal crimes occur within the walls of said location).
If you don't want to deal with life inside of prison, well, you shouldn't be committing crimes. Of course harsher implementation of solitary confinement can solve this.

The death penalty is NOT about vengenance, it is about suitable punishment for crime(s) committed. One who negates (read terminates) the life of another, forfeits his own in return. There is NO other equitable punishment available.

Of course it is about vengeance. You people keep saying he deserves to have this happen for what he did, etc. You don't bring up any practical merits that using the death penalty has (because there are none). The death penalty is not necessary in any way. Life without parole keeps that person from harming society and gives that person a chance to repent before the Lord.

[dcanner]

Trau writes: Killing a criminal just so the family feels better is selfish and evil vengeance unbecoming of Christians who should be forgiving.

As far as the response of individual Christians is concerned, you are right. Christians should forgive. True Christians should forgive and not harbor hatred in their hearts. Failure to do so is sin, quite simply.
However, this does not negate the requirement for justice. Justice must still be delivered, without hatred, without vengeance. Since God does not sit on benches here, we rely on the government to dispense justice. The role of government is not to turn the other cheek, so to speak. The role of government is to protect the citizenry and dispense even-handed justice. Willfully taking a life forfeits your own. Fair is fair.
It's like disciplining a child. You don't do it out of anger or hatred, but for justice.

[dcanner]

I would not be opposed to life in prison, IF and only IF our courts could be counted on to keep them there. They have not proven in the past their capacity for commitment in this area. Also, it is terribly expensive and the prisons are already overflowing. So from a practical point-of-view...

[Trau]

Our laws do NOT state that by taking life one's own is foreit--that is for the Lord to decide. In the meantime, true justice is carried about by recognizing the crime committed and keeping that person in prison forever. Yes, the law has a bad reputation for releasing vile criminals when they should never be; this is because of parole. Without parole they are in prison forever.

[Wyatt_Junker]

So does life without parole.



Wrong. Life without parole is cruel and unusual punishment, especially if the guy is innocent. And since you cannot, in fact can never, guarantee that someone is 100% innocent of a crime we must abolish prison sentences of all kinds.

People sentenced to death have had a trial by their peers, they have also had appeals up to their armpits and amply fed chins. Is or is not the current justice system the standard? If it is for life terms, then it is for penalties of death. In either case there is no guarantee of 100%, fault-free accuracy. Prison terms of any length are JUST AS unjust as a post death penalty, smoke still rising from the eyesockets. You can never get that lost life back whether its 10 years or 60, life with no parole or not. It is gone. Your freedom is gone. Your life is in all ways but a heartbeat...gone. Since we can have no guarantee of someone receiving the death penalty is always 100% guilty, we can also likewise have no guarantee that someone with even 5 years behind bars is also 100% always guilty. In either case a gross injustice has been made. We should begin dismantling prisons now. All sentences of any kind are unjust.

[HomeschoolrsRUs]

So does life without parole.

No it doesn't, s/he could still kill inside the prison -- inmates, officers, medical personnel. The death penalty prevents this 100% ... prove me wrong.


If you don't want to deal with life inside of prison, well, you shouldn't be committing crimes. Of course harsher implementation of solitary confinement can solve this.

Solitary confinement does NOT insure (100%) against further crime. One could simply "play sick" and kill the guard that comes in to see what's wrong, or the medical personnel in the infirmary, etc. As long as the criminal pulls breath there IS a chance for MORE crime. The death penalty prevents this 100% ... prove me wrong.

Of course it is about vengeance. You people keep saying he deserves to have this happen for what he did, etc. You don't bring up any practical merits that using the death penalty has (because there are none). The death penalty is not necessary in any way.
BULL-MALARKEY.

Practical Merits:

1. The death penalty prevents further crime by that particular criminal 100% -- NO OTHER method of punishment has as high of a prevention rate.

2. One who negates (read terminates) the life of another, forfeits his own in return. There is NO other equitable punishment available. Life-without-parole is NOT equitable, because there will ALWAYS be a chance for further crime committed by the criminal (see #1.)

3. Society should NOT have to pay to extend the life of a murder -- that is an unfair burden on the taxpayer, who committed NO crime.

Question: Are you willing to allow taxpayers to "opt-out" of funding facilities for life-without-parole murderers?

I don't want one red dime of my money spent in the care and feeding of a murderer, not one second more than it takes to execute him.

4. For every moment a convicted murder (sentenced to death) stays alive, he wastes taxpayer dollars and valuable court time needed in other cases. Not to mention all the frivilous lawsuits pursued by inmates, of which they could, and can, take full advantage. MORE burden placed upon "the people," upon society -- again, are you willing to allow taxpayers to "opt-out" of funding such stupidity?

Life without parole keeps that person from harming society and gives that person a chance to repent before the Lord.

How arrogant! That person's chance is NOT dependent upon man, the courts, or the guy pulling the switch on the electric chair (or pushing the plunger on the lethal injection). The "chance(s)" come from God, and He knows and sees all -- He's perfectly aware of how much time that criminal has to accept Him. He is not dependent upon OUR giving the criminal more time -- that's a simply absurd statement, as we simply cannot preempt God.

[USPatriot8320]

Personally: I think of the death penalty as an eye for eye... Why should someone else be allowed to live when they've usually and brutally ended the life of another?

[USPatriot8320]

Besides, by the time all the appeals run out ect. It's been years... Plenty of time to find evidence to exonerate a person... In NYS, we have I forget how many people on death row, yet we haven't executed a single person since the death penalty was re-established....

[Wyatt_Junker]

The mythology of anti-death penalty proponents is at once superstitious as bone reading voodoo and suffering from religious-based scrupulosity. For some reason, putting someone to death is uncouth and cave-mannish.

This comes from their subconscious humanism, whether its Catholic humanism or classic Greco-Roman.

Putting a 'murderer' to death is simply not Euro-chic. It lacks the social etiquette of a civilized society(ie humanism).

But then so does putting someone wrongly convicted of any crime away for even 2 weeks along with their shattered reputation. Might as well assign no guilt, punishment or blame at all to anyone for any crime. We need 100% accuracy at all times in order to do anything. Indeed, we are paralyzed to act until we can have science herself authenticate the proof of someone's guilt whether that's enforcing capital punishment or assigning any term to one's offense.

Hey lib, quit being so superstitious, there are some things worse than death. Being wrongly accused of say, pedophilia, and having to live with that scarlet P is much worse than getting hypoed.

Dismantle all prisons now. They are all unjust.

[Kathy29]

It is entirely possible that a Christian with a forgiving heart could STILL put someone to death. With all the forgiveness in the world. Maybe that's the way it should be. You are forgiven, now die.

[jag]

So does life without parole.



Not so...http://www.freeconservatives.com/vb/showthread.php?p=370148#post370148

Probably its because Allen is such a poor candidate. He was sentenced to life in prison, escaped and killed two people. While in prison, he killed three more.