Judge Throws Out Quran Lawsuit

[Patriot Heart]

I am fascinated how many ACLU lawyers appear to have Jewish surnames. Bizarre.

News
Friday, December 9, 2005

<!-- ## END Section Header and Pubdate ## --><!-- Article headline --><!-- HEADLINE -->Judge throws out Quran suit


GREENSBORO -- A judge on Thursday threw out a lawsuit spurred by outcry over the inability of Muslims to use a Quran for courtroom oaths, a lawyer in the case said.

Superior Court Judge Donald L. Smith decided that the American Civil Liberties Union of North Carolina and Greensboro Muslim Syidah Mateen failed to show that an actual legal controversy exists between them and the state of North Carolina.

The judge did not address whether state law allows people to use non-Christian texts for oath-taking, the main issue the ACLU wanted resolved.

"We're disappointed the judge did not reach the merits (of the case)," said ACLU lawyer Seth Cohen, who confirmed Thursday's ruling. "We're confidant we would have won on the merits."
http://www.news-record.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051209/NEWSREC0101/512080330

[BarkleUSA]

…the Quran teaches that honesty must be afforded other Muslims, but lies are fine for infidels (i.e. everyone else).

Therefore, for a Muslim to take an oath on a Quran would only serve to guarantee that what follows is a pack of lies.

The Bible, on the other hand, is the scripture of the one true God and His son Jesus Christ – which compels all to take the oath more seriously.

The Quran has no place in a courtroom - other then as evidence of terrorist indocrination.

[Timberwolf]

Well said and quite true, Barkle...

As for the Jewish lawyers in the ACLU...why would that surprise anyone? They have had their hearts hardened by God so that the "wild olive could be grafted into the vine". Mass conversion of Jews to Christianity is, as I understand it, one of the greater signs of the End Times (or at least a coming to repentence in the eyes of God).

[pinqy]

…the Quran teaches that honesty must be afforded other Muslims, but lies are fine for infidels (i.e. everyone else).

Therefore, for a Muslim to take an oath on a Quran would only serve to guarantee that what follows is a pack of lies.

The Bible, on the other hand, is the scripture of the one true God and His son Jesus Christ – which compels all to take the oath more seriously.

Wait, you're claiming that a Muslim will not take an oath on the Koran seriously, but will take an oath on the Christian Bible seriously? What effect does taking an oath on the Bible have on an Atheist?

[DoctorDoom]

Wait, you're claiming that a Muslim will not take an oath on the Koran seriously ...You did, I assume, READ what was written before responding to it.
... the Quran teaches that honesty must be afforded other Muslims, but lies are fine for infidels (i.e. everyone else).As guided by the Koran, truth is required only when dealing with Muslims. He therefore can lie to "infidels" without violating the Koran.

... but will take an oath on the Christian Bible seriously?Obviously not.

What effect does taking an oath on the Bible have on an Atheist?None whatsoever.

However, perjury is a prosecutable offense, and the statement of the words is considered an oath even if the swearer believes not a syllable of it. Ergo a muzzie or a heathen would be bound by his recitation of the words, and could be charged with lying under oath even if he lied when he spoke the oath.

[pinqy]

You did, I assume, READ what was written before responding to it. I certainly did...especially the part that said "The Bible, on the other hand, is the scripture of the one true God and His son Jesus Christ which compels all to take the oath more seriously" "All" would include Muslims and Atheists and Hindus and Wiccans etc. I was and am curious as to how that would work and why Muslims would not take an oath on their own Holy Book seriously but would take an oath made on someone else's seriously, which is what BarkleUSA seemed to be saying.


However, perjury is a prosecutable offense, and the statement of the words is considered an oath even if the swearer believes not a syllable of it. Ergo a muzzie or a heathen would be bound by his recitation of the words, and could be charged with lying under oath even if he lied when he spoke the oath. So then there's really no need to swear on any book, then? If it's the force of the perjury law that compells, or at least punishes, violating an oath, then swearing on the Bible isn't necessary. Unless for some reason Christians were more likely to commit perjury if they didn't use the Bible, which of course is not true.

[DoctorDoom]

The use of the Bible is traditional from centuries of court procedures, long before muzzies and atheists were a significant factor. It represented the standard of truth, and the swearer's hand on it signified that he/she was to be held to its authority.

It's purely symbolic, but its meaning was clear.

[pinqy]

It represented the standard of truth, and the swearer's hand on it signified that he/she was to be held to its authority. "Represented?" It doesn't anymore? But in any case, then, it doesn't make sense to ask or require someone who doesn't believe in the Bible to swear on it, does it? It's simply asking someone to accept the authority of a religion/God they don't believe in. Of course, as far as I know, in the US there has long been the choice to affirm, instead, to accomodate those Christians who take Matthew 5:34-37 seriously.

[Patriot Heart]

You need to get a few more things interpreted, Hammer. Christians do not hate Muslims. Like anyone else we will defend ourselves vigorously against those who would try and steal our faith and our lives. Christians give more $$ in support of poor Muslims than Muslims themselves do. And I believe the reason they call it ia sin to translate is because then the horrible truth of Islam is made available to all.

[pinqy]

Hmmmm. The hammer, I find that when calling out someone for lying, it defeats your purpose to be less than honest yourself. The Crusades were more political than religious, Islamic nations have invaded Islamic nations, and non-Islamic nations (and Iraq was officially secular, anyway), I'm quite sure you have no basis for claiming the prisoners at Abu Garib were innocent, and you certainly have no basis to claim the pictures were released to the city by the guards. And, religion played no part in the invasion of Iraq and the assumed Christianity of the guards played no part in their actions.

[Patriot Heart]

Hammer, please. You need to brush up on your history, your Muslim friends have your brain well-washed.

[MSGT]

source: Real Time with Bill Maher

:hahaha:

[Patriot Heart]

Just a little something to help you brush up a bit Hammer...if you dare to look outside your narrow sphere....

http://www.factsandlogic.org/

http://www.catholic.com/library/endless_jihad.asp

http://www.homa.org/Details.asp?ContentID=2137352725&TOCID=2083225347

http://www.historyofjihad.org/

[dPrasse]

That's enough for now

Agreed ... another brainless numb nut deserving the "Ignore" feature ...

[Patriot Heart]

Hammer. Whew. EVERYTHING else aside for a moment......it is MUSLIMS murdering innocents worldwide, NOT Christians.............get it? MUSLIMS not CHRISTIANS. Yea I know, it's a tough concept, but TRY REALLY REALLY HARD, OK??

[Antigone]

Hammer. Whew. EVERYTHING else aside for a moment......it is MUSLIMS murdering innocents worldwide, NOT Christians.............get it? MUSLIMS not CHRISTIANS. Yea I know, it's a tough concept, but TRY REALLY REALLY HARD, OK??

:hahaha:

Way to go PH! Maybe if you type reeeaaalllly slow next time, he can keep up! :thumb:

[pinqy]

Fact: Bush went into Iraq because "god" told him. You're claiming that Bush just had a divine revelation one day and for no other reason decided to invade Iraq? Nothing to due with 12 years of Iraq violating the cease fire agreement? So, forget whether or not the intel was mistaken, we can just blame God? Interesting.

Fact: Most of the men in Abu Grhaib were innocent, and put there for not complying with feds to enter Insurgency and "nark" on the insurgents, and if they didn't comply after that, the pictures were released to the city. So make black mail, and then black mail. Not a fact. I understand where the misconception could have come from, however. The Taguba report stated that there were three release mechanisms for detainees: 1) The detaining unit determined further detention was not warranted. 2) Criminal detainees who had no intelligence value and posed no threat to society could be released on the authority of BG Karpinski (CO of the prison). 3) Those accused of crimes against the Coalition who posed no intel value and no further threat to the Coalition. The Taguba report estimated that 60% of the detainees fell into this last category, which was the slowest to process. This is nothing like saying they were innocent.


Finally, you call the crusades "political", then why were all the attackers on one side christians and on the other side Muslims, coincidence. Why did the attackers kill muslim children, if it were political, they would have no need to slaughter the children, but they did, why?? Long story short, the children were muslims. The reasons for the Crusades were not to slaughter children. That's what we're talking about...reasons.

Finally, the wars with Muslim nations, that was political, the crusades were religious. But Iraq was Sunni run, and Iraq Shiite. oh...religious differences! Must have been about religion.

[DoctorDoom]

... your Muslim friends have your brain well-washed.They gave him an enema?

[DoctorDoom]

There's nothing as amusing as being lectured by a teenaged pissant with a delusion that he knows everything. Oy!

[Wolfcounsel]

"Revelation 19:6 states that God is an omnipotent. Is God capible of creating a being as powerful as Himself?" --The hammer

You answer that about Allah first. He waits patiently for your answer.

[brilliantLiberal]

Christianity for example added a little red guy with a tail and horns.
I belive you confuse Christianity with a maketing campaign.

Muslims are true to the word.
Islam is the religion of the damned. To assume that Muslims, as followers of a false god who encourages the murder of all who do not swear to Islam, as a group would be honest, honorable men is without basis in reality.

Finally, this "loving" christianity would never commit crusades against islam
The Crusades were intended to liberate the people of the Holy Lands from the Islamists, who challenged them to convert or die.

or invade an islamic nation,
If you look at your history in the last 30 years, you'll see that nearly every conflict we've engaged in was to save Muslims from other Muslims.

arrest innocent people,
Very few innocents have been arrested. I suspect for every innnocent released ten terrorists are released because of a lack of evidence. Remember, if you harbor or give aid and comfort to a terrorist, you are no longer innocent.

put them in jail, and belittle them by making a "gay pile",
America puts terrorists in prison. Hussein put children in prison.

and then releasing pictures to the city. Christianity is really a loving religion.
CBS News, I believe, released the pictures, not the US government. They were evidence in a CRIMINAL case brought by the military that had gone on for months before the pictures were leaked and the media finally saw something they could use to attack the military and the president.

Why not take your pro-terrorist, anti-America rhetoric to the streets of Baghdad and share your views with the Islmaists you love?

[Wolfcounsel]

"Why not take your pro-terrorist, anti-America rhetoric to the streets of Baghdad and share your views with the Islmaists you love? --brilliantLiberal, to The hammer

Even if he tattoos MOHAMMED IS THE SHITS! on his forehead, the camel humpers might still slice his head off with an extra dull butter knife. But that goes for every bleeding heart Islamic defender around the world. Try it if y'all don't believe me, leftists.<!-- / message -->

[brilliantLiberal]

Fact: Bush went into Iraq because "god" told him. christ, Bush needs to get laid.
Fact. America had been at war with Iraq since 1991. The Gulf War never ended. There was a cease fire which was immediately violated. Bush went to Iraq because Iraq presented a threat to America. Iraq was among the world's leading sponsors of terrorism, and was attacking Amewrican aircraft on a daily basis.

Fact: Most of the men in Abu Grhaib were innocent, and put there for not complying with feds to enter Insurgency and "nark" on the insurgents, and if they didn't comply after that, the pictures were released to the city.
I presume you have evidence of this supposed fact.

source: Real Time with Bill Maher
:hahaha: :hahaha: :hahaha:
Next time cite Howard Dean!

Finally, you call the crusades "political", then why were all the attackers on one side christians and on the other side Muslims, coincidence.
Because the Muslims had invaded the Holy Lands. This can't be real. Do you work for Al Jazeera?

[brilliantLiberal]

Here is more proof, CHRISTIANITY is more of a religion of hate. SO, please leave the poor muslims alone, they have been hated for centuries, be tolerent.
Let me see if I get this straight. So it is the Christians who are strapping bombs to themselves, going into mosques and blowing up Muslims? I have a better idea. Hunt the terrorists down to extinction and bury them all in mass graves with butchered hogs.

Why does the Bible claim male's superiority over women?
Because woman was made subservient to man due to Eve's sin. However, it was ALSO commanded to man to love his wife as Christ loved the church.

In Romans 3:28, the Bible says that without faith, good deeds are irrelevant, and thusly faith is the only thing necessary to gain salvation. James 2:24 states that good deeds do gain salvation. What does God expect from us?
Try going to a good church and having someone who knows the Bible read it to you. Like most atheists, you are taking the Bible out of context and outright lying. James writes the following in Chapter 2:

19: Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20: But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21: Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22: Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23: And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24: Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

By works is a man justified. NOT By works does a man find salvation. James is pointing out that justification comes not from just saying, "Ok, I believe in God," because Lucifer also believes in God. If a man is truly filled with the spirit, he will want to do things that are pleasing to his God.

Revelation 19:6 states that God is an omnipotent. Is God capible of creating a being as powerful as Himself?
What were you saying earlier about spell check?

It has been scientifically proven that homosexuality is determined by genetics in many species. If God considered something "unnatural" or "an abomination" (Leveticus 18:22), why would He create it and make it beyond one's control?
A man's behavior is not beyond his control. The behavior of dumb animals has nothing to do with the behavior of man. Some people have greater temptations in some areas than others, but all are accountable for their own actions.

Also on homosexuality, the Bible states that those who "lay with mankind, " they shall be put to death (Leveticus 20:13), and that they "shall not inherit the kingdom of heaven" (1 Chronicles 6:9-10). Why does God condemn homosexuals from birth, as much of science has proven it IS natural and it ISN'T a choice?
Sexual activity is reserved for a man and woman who are committed and married to each other. Science can "prove" that it is natrual for a man to desire a woman, but that doesn't mean we are free to rape and fornicate at will.

Why did God create humans (I'd like verses, please)
I know why He created my wife, but as to why He created you, I'm stymied.

How is God capible of doing things that are not mathematically or scientifically possible?
He who created the universe and the laws of the universe is not bound by those laws. God is Lord of the universe. His will is the only natural law that cannot be violated.

How exactly did God create female DNA out of male DNA?
He comanded that it be so, and it was so.

1 Chronicles 16:30 and Pslams 93:1 state that the earth is immobile. Clearly, all astronomy and science have proved this wrong. How is it possible for the earth to remain immobile?
In relation to man at that time, the earth was immobile. Do you think you can move the earth, or by your actions, alter it's rotation? All the secrets of the universe have not even now been revealed to man. Why do you think they would have been revealed to David?

Ezekial 18:19 states that if a son himself is lawful and right, he shall live. Exodus 20:5 and Numbers 14:18 state that a fathers sins are carried with their sons until the fourth generation. Are sins carried throughout the generations? If so, why?
Under the new covenant established by Christ, a man's sins are forgiven through the spilled blood of Christ.

[Wolfcounsel]

"The Quran doesn't have a book of revalations, so he never claims to be omni-potent" --The hammer

You won't get any argument from me about whether Allah, the pedophile-loving moon god is omnipotent or not, that's for sure.

[brilliantLiberal]

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah...
Ignore awaits you. Bye.

[Patriot Heart]

Hammer. God love you. You have to be joking.
Finally, Iraq was REALLY justified, you know women had more rights during the Saddam era.
Women were RAPED and BUTCHERED routinely during Saddam's reign.
You know what I really think? I think you are desperate to believe in the one true God. Your muslim friends have filled your young mind with foolish thoughts. You instinctively feel the wrongness of it. And so, like a toddler who is so tired but doesn't want to go to bed, you are resisting vigorously the only idea (Christianity) that make sense. Keep this in the back of your mind. God made you, loves you, and waits for you.
"Behold, I stand at the door and knock.
If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, then I will come in to him, and will dine with him, and he with me."
Revelations 3:20

[jag]

My evidence for that is again, Bill Maher, and he might be bias, cynical, and an asshole, but he is truthful.

:hahaha: You are adorable, hammer :hahaha:

[Antigone]

The whole Bush "God told me to" issue is based on a translation of a translation of a translation of a conversation someone said they had with Bush. It is not verifiable.

[dPrasse]

Ignore awaits you. Bye.

bwwaahhaaa ... He/She made my ignore list long ago .... anybody using Maher as a source for anything but a reliable source of ignorance should be ignored ...

[Wyatt_Junker]

Hammerhead is all up in islam like Ron Jeremy in Paris Hilton. Don't mind the fact that the clits have all been factory removed and the burka farts have nowhere to go but up into the headscarf like a vertical dutch oven. Hammertime likes the splodeykids. Better'n Must See TV.

[Uncle Fester]

Why would anyone feel it necessary to bring such a suit? Just what exactly is it that offends non-Christians about Christianity (to include its tenets and practices)? How is it offensive to them? Are they really concerned about the separation of church and state--or are the simply incensed because of its mere prominence in American culture?

If Islam has attained equality in their minds, then why do they feel it necessary to continue to reside in this country instead of a Muslim-dominated Middle East? Could it be nicer schools? A superior medical care system? Or perhaps they are motivated by the cowardice that grips much of the Islamic world--a cowardice whereby Muslims scream "Death to America" and rail against American 'acts of barbarity' committed against Muslims, while these same people cower in their substandard housing every night because they are too afraid to stand up to their own throat-slitting governments.

Willful denial. That is what is about. Slums dominated by low forehead Arabs who abuse and humiliate women. Countries that hand out legions of Islamic studies college degrees (aka -- sit around and whine about Israel and America degrees) while importing labor from smart, hard-working, and resourceful countries to build their oil revenue-funded towers of glass and steel.

That is ugly truth about Islamic culture in its native lands. And it's a truth that transplanted Muslims cannot accept. Come here, dress nice, and then scream, "Islam is equal! Read our holy book and you'll see!" (unspoken: "But ignore the reality of its application worldwide and the utter failure and stagnation of Islamic-dominated civilizations! If you bring up reality, then you're an enemy of Islam!)

(additional unspoken: "...and we'll kill you--in the name of Allah!")

Screamed: "We are equal!"
Whispered: "Please, Mr. Terrorist, stop crashing planes into buildings."

Screamed (on 9/11 + six hours): "Mr. President, we demand you go on national television and tell all Americans that we aren't murdering cowards!!!" (unspoken: "No, all of us non-hijackers who have come to America aren't murdering cowards, we're just cowards taking advantage of the wealth, justice, and safety that America has to offer because we're all too much of a bunch of non-murdering cowards to ever do anything about the situation in our homelands.")
Whispered: "We oppose the acts of aggression against America."

Screamed: "I demand to swear an oath using the Koran!"
Whispered: "But our religious tenets don't allow for your soldiers to worship as they choose while the are in our 'holy' lands."

[smithy]

If anything Islam should be outlawed, are all these ACLU layer aware that Islam does not separate between state and mosque. Therefore if there is anybody with half a brain in our government Islam would be outlawed. They do not even believe in any constitution and just waiting for the right time when the only constitution is the quran.

Here is the proof they do not believe in the sepration between state and church.

September 23, 2005, the CAIR, which stands for “Coning Americans with Islamic Ruse”, issued a plea asking Muslims and “people of conscience” to write to their representatives and urge the U.S. Congress to recognize Islam as a “great religion of the world and express its deepest respect to Muslims.” http://www.cair-net.org/default.asp?Page=articleView&id=287&theType=AA

Can you imagine that the Jews, the Hindus, the Buddhists or even the Christians make such demands? What would the ACLU do, Why only Muslims need the confirmation of others that their religion is great? Isn't this the sign of insecurity of these poor souls? Imagine Hindus, Jews or Buddhists, soliciting the politicians to declare that their religion is great! That is laughable! It just does not happen. They don't need anyone's approval to feel good about their religions and most specially not the government.

smithy (http://spaces.msn.com/members/undressing-islam)

[pinqy]

Why would anyone feel it necessary to bring such a suit?
From the article in the OP: The issue surfaced after Guilford County's two top judges turned down a gift of Qurans from a Greensboro Islamic center after deciding than an oath on the Quran is not a legal oath.

State law refers to someone laying his hand on the "Holy Scriptures," which they interpret to mean the Christian Bible. So basically, the issue is whether the government has the right to decide what constitutes "Holy Scriptures." The disagreement is nothing new...back in the 1840's there were riots in Philadelphia because the state government only allowed the King James Version of the Bible in schools (allowed pre-14th ammendment) and wouldn't allow Catholics to use their version.

If the government can decide that the Quran is not Holy Scriptures, then they could also decide that only the Jehovah's Witness's New World Translation of the Bible, or only Catholic versions including the deutero-canonical (apocrypha) books, or only the Book of Mormon, or only the Quran is Holy Scriptures. That shouldn't be the decision of the government.

[Wyatt_Junker]

From here on out, all oaths must be taken while cupping one's crotch. Swearing by the hairs on one's balls would have kept Billy Jethro from perjury since it was the only thing he believed.

[DoctorDoom]

If the Koran is allowed, then can the witness or defendant bring his own Koran? If not, then the court will require a Muslim officer to handle the Koran, since infidels can't touch it.

[omegatrump]

the Quran is the constitution of Islam, and Islamic believers. There is no other constitution where they are concerned. They bide their time untill such time that they can impose their constitution on the world.

Islam is illegal by it's very own pronouncments. The PC (politicaly corrupt) government of America will find this out one day.

[Merlin]

I`m of the opinion that muslims should not be allowed to settle here. In Europe they are beginning to find out the hard way why mass muslim immigration is a totally bad idea. Another result over in Europe of large islamic immigration is the rise over there of neo-fascist parties voted for by worried Europeans. Does anybody here remember the French Presidential election in 2002 when a neo fascist candidate came second in their national elections? France has the most muslims of any European country. Thank God Mexicans aren`t muslims!

[Wyatt_Junker]

Thank God Mexicans aren`t muslims!

Its a decent point. Although not a perfect one.

And while I detest that no Universal English Language Bill has been introduced and that the social welfare services get sucked dry, Mexicans are at the very least, much better than muslims. If yer gonna get slowly and quietly sacked, better to get sacked by a mariachi band than a bunch of screaming, xenophobic, mysogonistic, pushy, domineering, loudmouthed religio-fuh-reaks in Hefty bags.

[dcanner]

Merlin writes: I`m of the opinion that muslims should not be allowed to settle here. In Europe they are beginning to find out the hard way why mass muslim immigration is a totally bad idea.

Have to agree with you there. Unless some way were found to confirm their commitment to loyalty to the US. I doubt it would be confirmable (is this a word?).

[Kathy29]

In California the Bible has been banned from courtrooms for many years. To allow in a koran would be an outrage.

[EveningStar]

http://www.tshirthell.com/shirts/products/a490/a490.gif (http://www.tshirthell.com/store/product.php?productid=490)

[pinqy]

In California the Bible has been banned from courtrooms for many years. To allow in a koran would be an outrage.
And that's what the lawsuit was about...the claim was that to allow one group to use their holy book but not another group theirs was unconstitutional. You seem to agree.

[Timberwolf]

Last time I checked, Allah isn't mentioned in our Founding Documents. muslims played NO part in the formation of this country...and since THEIR "holy" book says that it is AOK to lie to us infidels, why SHOULD we let it be used in OUR courtrooms?

[Lazarus]

So where is this Hammer character? Did he cut and run? Did he turn orange? I dont see his posts and I havent Ignored anyone...

Why would anyone feel it necessary to bring such a suit?...It has recently been revealed that the ACLU has used such frivolous lawsuits for years as a loophole to earn money for their coffers... Whether they win or lose, they still get to claim legal fees at taxpayer expense when representing a "low income" client...

All this time America has been scratching their heads when we have heard about such inane lawsuits by the ACLU, all the while they have been laughing all the way to the bank...

And as far as I understand, nothing has been done to stop the practice... They still have their evil hands in our tax dollars...

[Timberwolf]

Time to declare "open season" on them??

[Tumblehome]

The alternative to allowing Muslims to swear in on the Quran is what? Isn't it just to have them affirm? It isn't like we force them to swear in on the bible is it? Maybe it IS in some parts of the bible belt, but I doubt it is forced on you even there.

So then if the alternaive is a simple secular affirmation, then why not let people swear in on whatever they hold dear? If it will make them feel more responsible for their words and make them think twice about telling falsehoods, what is the harm? I see only marginal upside to allowing people to swear in on something other than the bible, but I see no downside at all.

[DeclinetoState]

The alternative to allowing Muslims to swear in on the Quran is what? Isn't it just to have them affirm? It isn't like we force them to swear in on the bible is it? Maybe it IS in some parts of the bible belt, but I doubt it is forced on you even there.


How about swearing on this:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v625/wyattjunker/s8_jpg.jpg

Any chance of perjury here?