Why are you sad when people die?

[nightshade]

This might seem like a stupid question at first, but can anyone actually give a clear answer other than "just because"?

[TechnoPrincess]

Because we miss them. We will never see them again in this life, and sometimes when someone dies it is (theoretically) going to be a long time before we die and can see them again. For instance my Great-Aunt died when I was in HS. We were very close. I was not sad for her, she had been in a great deal of pain and her death was a releaf from that for her. I was sad because I would never again get to see her or talk to her in this life. She never saw me graduate HS or college, get married or have my first child. I was sad because I missed her.

We mourn not for those who have left, but for the loss of that person in our lives.

[USPatriot8320]

I agree with Techno... My grandmother died when I was in HS.. She was like mom and dad rolled into one... I was glad she passed on because she would no longer feel the cancer... But I miss and mourn who she was... Still miss her to this day. She was a wonderful and proud woman...

[Peachdiane]

Well I was sad when my dad was blown up, sad for my mom and siblings. We were robbed of a terrific husband and father and AZ lost a terrific reporter.

I was sad when my sister died because her children no longer had their mother. Everyone has their own reasons based on age and experience but I think the biggie is that we miss them.

[HomeschoolrsRUs]

It is my opinion we are saddened for the void in our own lives -- it is a somewhat selfish reaction, but completely understandable. Immediately one's mind goes to the "good times" the "good things" that was brought about by their existence. WE long for them back so we can have those feelings again, so we can feel that we have ownership of them, so to speak. When the loved one is gone, in spirit and body, we only have a whisp of what they were, and can no longer enjoy thoughts of things and times to come.

Some of us are also sad, because we are aware that the one passed wasn't in the family of God, which brings about great grief, especially if they were deeply loved. That was the way it was for me when my Grandmother passed. I believe very strongly in my heart that she was not a child of God. Knowing this caused a tremendous mourning deep within my soul. Strange, I was the only one crying such desparate tears. It was a very difficult time.

Contrast that with the death of my father in 1999 - although I was certainly feeling the tremendously sad feelings by thoughts of his not being a part of my every day life anymore, I also felt a joy that can only come from knowing that he no longer is burdened by the cares, burdens, hurts and woes of this world anymore, and that he is with his Lord. Very different tears fell from my eyes that day.

my .02

[nightshade]

She never saw me graduate HS or college, get married or have my first child.

Do you not think that she could see you from wherever she is now?

Are you sad when people who you don't know die?

[USPatriot8320]

Personally, I'm not so much sad about people I don't know. But I do feel its tragic.. But without that emotional connection... IDK hard to explain

[nightshade]

I agree with Techno... My grandmother died when I was in HS.. She was like mom and dad rolled into one... I was glad she passed on because she would no longer feel the cancer... But I miss and mourn who she was... Still miss her to this day. She was a wonderful and proud woman...

Do you think is it more appropriate to speak of your grandmother in the past tense or the present tense?

Do you think that she is in a different place and that you will see her again?

[nightshade]

Well I was sad when my dad was blown up, sad for my mom and siblings. We were robbed of a terrific husband and father and AZ lost a terrific reporter.

I was sad when my sister died because her children no longer had their mother. Everyone has their own reasons based on age and experience but I think the biggie is that we miss them.

Are you sad when people who you don't know die?

[USPatriot8320]

I think my grandmother is watching over me.... and I do believe, God willing, I will see her again... In the physical sense, yes, past tense is proper..

[jag]

Are you sad when people who you don't know die?

Not necessarily but I feel sad for those that will miss them.


Because we miss them. ...

We mourn not for those who have left, but for the loss of that person in our lives.

Couldn't have said it better

[Peachdiane]

Are you sad when people who you don't know die?

I'm sad for those they leave.

BTW when I die, I want a big arse celebration and fanfare. No casket viewings and no gloom and doom. I want colors and uplifting music!

[Beowulf]

To me, life and death are just everyday matters. I do feel bad for those left behind. Would I feel bad if someone dies on death row or in prison during a life sentence? No but I do feel bad for the lives affected by them.

I can think of one person I miss dearly after 20 years, my Godfather. He was a friend and my spiritual leader and I find myself to this day asking from time to time, "Bernie, what should I do?" That's what I miss, his presence and wisdom, the latter being something I'll never be as he was.

[TechnoPrincess]

I'm sad for those they leave.

BTW when I die, I want a big arse celebration and fanfare. No casket viewings and no gloom and doom. I want colors and uplifting music!

My dad kind of wants that. He wants a full Dixyland band playing "When the Saints Come Marching In" as he is lowered into the grave. He want's no one in black and a NewOrleans style funeral where it's more like a party than a wake.

[TechnoPrincess]

Do you not think that she could see you from wherever she is now?

Are you sad when people who you don't know die?

Okay, how's this? She wasn't there to celebrate with me. Better stated for you?

Yes, because they leave people behind that will miss them. I see a funeral procession and pray for the people driving the cars because they must be so sad to have lost someone they love.

[HomeschoolrsRUs]

My dad kind of wants that. He wants a full Dixyland band playing "When the Saints Come Marching In" as he is lowered into the grave. He want's no one in black and a NewOrleans style funeral where it's more like a party than a wake.

Me too, sans the NewOrleans-style theme. I have already written my wishes down, including music and directions for the celebration.

Artist/Band: Paisley Brad (Feat. Dolly Parton)
Lyrics for Song: When I Get Where I'm Going
Lyrics for Album: Time Well Wasted

When I get where I'm going
On the far side of the sky
The first thing that I'm gonna do
Is spread my wings and fly

I'm gonna land beside a lion
And run my fingers through his mane
Or I might find out what it's like
To ride a drop of rain

(Chorus:)
Yeah when I get where I'm going
There'll be only happy tears
I will shed the sins and struggles
I have carried all these years
And I'll leave my heart wide open
I will love and have no fear
Yeah when I get where I'm going
Don't cry for me down here

I'm gonna walk with my grand daddy (and my daddy-added by Hms)
And he'll match me step for step
And I'll tell him how I missed him
Every minute since he left
Then I'll hug his neck

(Chorus)

So much pain and so much darkness
In this world we stumble through
All these questions I can't answer
So much work to do

But when I get where I'm going
And I see my maker's face
I'll stand forever in the light
Of his amazing grace
Yeah when I get where I'm going
There'll be only happy tears
Hallelujah
I will love and have no fear
When I get where I'm going
Yeah when I get where I'm going

[Peachdiane]

My dad kind of wants that. He wants a full Dixyland band playing "When the Saints Come Marching In" as he is lowered into the grave. He want's no one in black and a NewOrleans style funeral where it's more like a party than a wake.

Now I like your dad already!!! At my dad's funeral they did the 21 gun salute and handed my mother the folded flag. They also played the song you mentioned.

I just think funerals are too somber and we need to lighten up about death. Death is an end, in a way, but a beginning in another way, for many religious people. I like to try and focus on that beginning.

[TechnoPrincess]

Now I like your dad already!!! At my dad's funeral they did the 21 gun salute and handed my mother the folded flag. They also played the song you mentioned.

I just think funerals are too somber and we need to lighten up about death. Death is an end, in a way, but a beginning in another way, for many religious people. I like to try and focus on that beginning.

I never understood my dad when I was younger, but now I do, and I like him a lot more :thumb: (shhh...don't tell him by I now really do like dixieland)

I agree...for me it helps to think of them no longer in p ain and with their new bodies in Christ.

[Peachdiane]

No prob. Your secret is safe with me. ;)

[DoctorDoom]

Do you not think that she could see you from wherever she is now?Despite the cartoons, no one in Heaven can see anything going on in this sinful, evil world. God, in His infinite mercy and compassion, cannot allow that. There would be no joy and peace in Heaven were that possible.

We all mourn the passing of those that we knew and loved, but those of us who trust in God's promises have the comfort of knowing that we will rejoin them one day, never again to part.

IMO, there is nothing so heartbreaking as the deaths of the lost.

[DoctorDoom]

This is how we as Christians view death.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v349/DocDoom777/BeyondSunset.jpg

There is no goodbye for a believer, just, "See you later!"

[nightshade]

What should be the punishment for someone who is unsaved and kills someone else who is unsaved?

[DoctorDoom]

The punishment should be whatever civil penalties apply to murder.

[TechnoPrincess]

What should be the punishment for someone who is unsaved and kills someone else who is unsaved?
Are you referring to their punishment through the judicial system?

The same as anyone else. No one has the right to take the life of another human being, whether their saved or not has not bearing on the punishment they should receive. The exact punishment depends on the laws of the state they are in and the circumstances of the crime. I, personally, believe in the death penalty.

[Tumblehome]

Is there an added pain to a loved one's death if you believed them to be unsaved? Ie, do Christians have an added pain when loved ones die due to this reason?

I feel bad when people I know die because I miss them, as has been mentioned above. For people I don't know, I feel bad for those they left behind and I feel bad for any pain that they suffered in their leaving.

I have no fear of my own death but I do fear the pain of getting dead.

[TechnoPrincess]

If I definitely know someone is not saved, then yes there is an added sadness.

[brilliantLiberal]

Is there an added pain to a loved one's death if you believed them to be unsaved? Ie, do Christians have an added pain when loved ones die due to this reason?
The thing to avoid is guilt. When someone you know is unsaved dies, you know that eternal damnation awaits them as the consequence of their rejection of Christ. Had you done all you could to try and show them the way? Did you offer to share the message of salvation with them, or were you too embarrassed by your faith to risk their ridicule? Can you look at yorself and say, "I tried to lead them but they failed to follow," or will you say when it's too late that you failed to try?

My father knew about salvation but rejected it out of hand. He died a broken, bitter, shriveled old man at the age of 42. Did he turn again to God in the final moments of his life? I'll never know that in this life, but I suspect not. Every lost soul causes the angels to grieve. Every one that finds salvation causes them to rejoice.

I try not to let the dismissive claims of non-Christians go unanswered when they say there is no God and that the Bible is just mythology. I'm sure as a result I come off pontificating in the minds of some. Still, when it comes time to account for MY own actions, I want on MY record that I attempted to share the good news of salvation with all who would hear. I don't want to see the fingers of the damned pointing at me asking, "Why didn't you tell me?" If perhaps something I say causes one person to read the Bible, visit a church and find God, then my life has had a greater meaning.

There are four stages of relationships, closed minded, open minded, confidence and faith.

In a closed minded relationship, I don't believe you and reject everything you say.

In an open minded relationship, I'll listen to your argument and may believe you if you give evidence of what you say.

In a confident relationship, I'll take your work for something though I may have some doubts, and evidence would make me more secure.

In a faith relationship, I believe it's true because you said it.

We should, all of us, work toward establishing a faith relationship with our Creator. I don't need any more evidence that God is Lord of the universe. I have faith in His word. True, like anyone I had to work through the other stages to get there, but once in a faith relationship the only thing that will break it is if the other lets you down. God will never let you down. I have faith in God, and I have faith in my wife. What more could a man ask?

If my wife were to die before me I would be devastated. Not for her, because Heaven awaits her; but for me. It would be my selfish loss for which I would grieve, to not see her smile in the morning; to not have her face be the last thing I see when I close my eyes and the first thing I see when I wake up; to not feel her body lying next to me; to not hear her snore or complain about my snoring; to have to put up with the enormous cavity that would be caused when half of a person's existence is taken away from them. That's why we cry. Even if we know that we will meet again on Heaven, it's the pain of separation and the knowledge that life will never be the same as it once was.

[Kathy29]

Doesn't the Bible say that when you enter Heaven your memory is taken and you remember nothing and no one. That way you cannot miss those who are not there with you or feel badly for them.

Sadness over the death of someone who has lived a full life, is aged,infirm and sick is ultimately selfish.

Come to think of it, I've known people who felt sad because they really didn't feel sad at all but thought they should be sad.

In some cases it's just selfishness over what we will miss about them.

[HomeschoolrsRUs]

Is there an added pain to a loved one's death if you believed them to be unsaved?

Yes.

Ie, do Christians have an added pain when loved ones die due to this reason?

i.e. Yes.

[Warlady]

This might seem like a stupid question at first, but can anyone actually give a clear answer other than "just because"?

There is no such thing as a stupid question IMO. The only stupid question is the one that isn't asked. Now to your question. Why are people sad when someone dies? It's in our nature because we are a compassionate species. It is also suspected that whales who are, like humans are monogamous (supposed to be faithful to one mate), similarly feel the loss of their mate. Humans grieve because it's our nature. Human beings also feel sad for the loss of those we don't know because we are compassionate. It's in our nature to care about others. Not all feel this way. It takes a special person to feel compassion for others. 911 is a perfect example of how we feel the loss. Nightshade, have you ever lost a loved one?

[nightshade]

The punishment should be whatever civil penalties apply to murder.

What would you make the punishment to be?

Would it be less for killing a saved person?

[Warlady]

Doesn't the Bible say that when you enter Heaven your memory is taken and you remember nothing and no one. That way you cannot miss those who are not there with you or feel badly for them.

Sadness over the death of someone who has lived a full life, is aged,infirm and sick is ultimately selfish.

Come to think of it, I've known people who felt sad because they really didn't feel sad at all but thought they should be sad.

In some cases it's just selfishness over what we will miss about them.

Kathy could you please post that scripture because I've never ever heard that before. I've heard so much testimony from people who have had near death experiences who say just the opposite..they are met by their loved ones. I prefer to believe them. As for feeling sadness over someone who has lived a full life it's natural to miss someone no matter how long they lived. I don't think that's selfish at all. It's natural. I miss my parents and grandparents, brother and daughter. I don't think I'm a selfish person. I think you're harsh. Or is cold a better description?

[nightshade]

Are you referring to their punishment through the judicial system?

The same as anyone else. No one has the right to take the life of another human being, whether their saved or not has not bearing on the punishment they should receive. The exact punishment depends on the laws of the state they are in and the circumstances of the crime. I, personally, believe in the death penalty.

what if the unsaved person killed someone who was saved?

Would you still want the punishment to be death?

[nightshade]

Nightshade, have you ever lost a loved one?

yes

[Warlady]

nightshade what exactly are you looking for? Are you against the death penalty?

[DoctorDoom]

What would you make the punishment to be?The penalty is established by the laws of the state where the crime occurs, unless the crime is on a federal level, in which case the federal laws take precedence.

Would it be less for killing a saved person?There is no reason why it should. Crime merits civil punishment, regardless of the saved status of the victim. What they face in God's court is for Him to know.

[nightshade]

If I definitely know someone is not saved, then yes there is an added sadness.

How much more sadness?

As I understand it, it should be infinitely more sad. Is that right?

[TechnoPrincess]

what if the unsaved person killed someone who was saved?

Would you still want the punishment to be death?


How would that change a thing? It is still murder and is against the law. PERIOD

[TechnoPrincess]

How much more sadness?

As I understand it, it should be infinitely more sad. Is that right?

What exactly are you looking for, me to quantify it? Are you just trying to be annoying with those questions?

[nightshade]

nightshade what exactly are you looking for? Are you against the death penalty?

I'm for it in some cases, against it in other cases.

I just want to see if people have thought about their views on what death is and how it applies to the death penalty, and just how they react to death and killing in general.

[nightshade]

The penalty is established by the laws of the state where the crime occurs, unless the crime is on a federal level, in which case the federal laws take precedence.

Not to sound whiny, but you are not actually answering my question. I didn't ask how the law is made, I asked what you, personally, want it to be. What law would you vote for?

There is no reason why it should. Crime merits civil punishment, regardless of the saved status of the victim. What they face in God's court is for Him to know.

Well, when you kill an unsaved person, you're sending that person to hell for eternity. You kill that person before that person had a chance to become saved. Isn't that the worst crime against a person that you can commit? And you also cause incredible pain to the relatives since they know that their loved one is now going to suffer for eternity.

Killing a saved person causes pain to the family because they won't get to see that person for a while, but that person is in a better place. As Kathy said, it might even be selfish of the family to regret that their loved one is now in heaven.

If you execute the perpetrator, you will send him/her to hell which is the worst possible fate. So unless the perpetrator actually caused someone else to be damned forever, I don't see why he should be too.

[nightshade]

How would that change a thing? It is still murder and is against the law. PERIOD

see my reply to Dr. Doom here: http://www.freeconservatives.com/vb/showpost.php?p=368742&postcount=41

[nightshade]

What exactly are you looking for, me to quantify it? Are you just trying to be annoying with those questions?

No, I'm not trying to be annoying. If my questions annoy you, then I'll stop asking you.

I'm asking, because, to me, it would seem that the death of a saved person would be like spilled milk compared to the death of an unsaved person. The two wouldn't be even close.

[TotallyAtPeace]

Oh Lordy! :devil:

[DoctorDoom]

Doesn't the Bible say that when you enter Heaven your memory is taken and you remember nothing and no one. That way you cannot miss those who are not there with you or feel badly for them.Kathy could you please post that scripture because I've never ever heard that before.There is no scripture that says that. However, it can be inferred.

Matt 22:23 The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him,
24 Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.
25 Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother:
26 Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh.
27 And last of all the woman died also.
28 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

This suggests that no one in heaven will know others in terms of earthly relationships, but simply as fellow members of God's family. And for true joy in heaven, ir must be that way.

"Hey, Joe, long time no see! I'm so glad that you made it."
"Thanks, Mike, especially for sharing the Gospel with me."
"Joe, you never met my parents. This is my mom, and that's my dad."
"I'm pleased to meet you both."
"Say, where are your folks?"
"Well ... they ... didn't make it."
"Oh, no! Joe, I'm so sorry."

Envision conversations like that by the millions, and it becomes obvious that there could be no true joy in Heaven if we knew that our loved ones died unsaved. Would a merciful, compassionate Father wish that for His children?

Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Heaven is a new life, and God will erase all memory of what went before in this earthly life of trial, toil and tears. And that must include forgetting all whom we knew who did not accept God's offer of salvation.

[TechnoPrincess]

No, I'm not trying to be annoying. If my questions annoy you, then I'll stop asking you.

I'm asking, because, to me, it would seem that the death of a saved person would be like spilled milk compared to the death of an unsaved person. The two wouldn't be even close.

Comparing the death of anyone to spilled milk is rather unsettling to say the least.

There is an additional sadness when an unsaved person dies, but there is no way to actually quantify the difference.

[TechnoPrincess]

Not to sound whiny, but you are not actually answering my question. I didn't ask how the law is made, I asked what you, personally, want it to be. What law would you vote for?



Well, when you kill an unsaved person, you're sending that person to hell for eternity. You kill that person before that person had a chance to become saved. Isn't that the worst crime against a person that you can commit? And you also cause incredible pain to the relatives since they know that their loved one is now going to suffer for eternity.

Killing a saved person causes pain to the family because they won't get to see that person for a while, but that person is in a better place. As Kathy said, it might even be selfish of the family to regret that their loved one is now in heaven.

If you execute the perpetrator, you will send him/her to hell which is the worst possible fate. So unless the perpetrator actually caused someone else to be damned forever, I don't see why he should be too.

God commanded that "Thou shalt not commit murder" He didn't say "Thou shalt not kill any unsaved person, but if they're saved then it's alright"

We are commanded not to murder ANYONE, saved or unsaved makes no difference. The punishment is the same whether the person they murdered is saved or not.

The Bible says that there is a time to mourn, and we do mourn for our dead.

[jag]

Well, when you kill an unsaved person, you're sending that person to hell for eternity....
If you execute the perpetrator, you will send him/her to hell which is the worst possible fate. So unless the perpetrator actually caused someone else to be damned forever, I don't see why he should be too.

Where anyone goes after death is btwn God and that person while alive.


Maybe someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't it actually only take a second to be saved? Isn't being saved simply accepting Christ as your savior?

[nightshade]

God commanded that "Thou shalt not commit murder" He didn't say "Thou shalt not kill any unsaved person, but if they're saved then it's alright"

We are commanded not to murder ANYONE, saved or unsaved makes no difference. The punishment is the same whether the person they murdered is saved or not.

Did God command us to execute murderers? (Not saying that He didn't, just asking if He did)

Why not lock the unsaved murderer up for life so that he has a chance to get saved? This question is especially important if the crime the person commited was not entirely due to his willful actions. If a drug addict murders, he might do so because of the influence of drugs. Maybe in time he could be rehabilitated and saved.

[nightshade]

Comparing the death of anyone to spilled milk is rather unsettling to say the least.

Why? If a saved person dies, you'll see that person again in a couple of decades. If I were Christian, I would not be nearly as sad when saved people die.

I'm only sad when people die because I believe that they are gone for eternity.

[nightshade]

Where anyone goes after death is btwn God and that person while alive.


Maybe someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't it actually only take a second to be saved? Isn't being saved simply accepting Christ as your savior?

Well, I can tell you for a fact that I'm not saved and I never will be. If you kill me, I will go straight to hell.

[DoctorDoom]

Not to sound whiny, but you are not actually answering my question. I didn't ask how the law is made, I asked what you, personally, want it to be. What law would you vote for?Inasmuch as I am not a legislator, the question is irrelevant. However, I would vote for the death penalty if a crime warranted it, and the issue of whether the criminal or the victim is saved or not would not enter into consideration.

Well, when you kill an unsaved person, you're sending that person to hell for eternity. You kill that person before that person had a chance to become saved. Isn't that the worst crime against a person that you can commit? And you also cause incredible pain to the relatives since they know that their loved one is now going to suffer for eternity.That can have no effect on the enforcement of criminal law, nor on the nature of the exacted penalties specified by the law. All the law and the courts must consider is whether or not the person broke a law, and the punishments to be exacted if the verdict of the jury is "guilty". Anything else is immaterial.

Killing a saved person causes pain to the family because they won't get to see that person for a while, but that person is in a better place.Again, that has no consequence in terms of the enforcement of criminal law.

As Kathy said, it might even be selfish of the family to regret that their loved one is now in heaven.That can be said of the death of any believer, for any reason.

If you execute the perpetrator, you will send him/her to hell which is the worst possible fate.It's a fate that the perp freely chose when he committed his particular crime. I have no sympathy.

So unless the perpetrator actually caused someone else to be damned forever, I don't see why he should be too.If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.
-- Tony Baretta

I submit that you are baiting, and I'm far too old and world-wise to be sucked into such foolishness.

[TechnoPrincess]

Did God command us to execute murderers? (Not saying that He didn't, just asking if He did)

Why not lock the unsaved murderer up for life so that he has a chance to get saved? This question is especially important if the crime the person commited was not entirely due to his willful actions. If a drug addict murders, he might do so because of the influence of drugs. Maybe in time he could be rehabilitated and saved.

Not only did he command death for those who committed murder, but also adultry and homosexuality.

While societal thoughts on the last two have changed, there are many that still agree with putting murder's to death.

Those who commit crimes need to be PUNISHED. That SHOULD be the goal of our judicial system. Personally I care nothing of their "rehabilitation". And when a Drunk Driver kills someone you love, we can talk about how you'll feel about them just being "rehabilitated" rather than punished as if they weren't drunk!

[TechnoPrincess]

Why? If a saved person dies, you'll see that person again in a couple of decades. If I were Christian, I would not be nearly as sad when saved people die.

I'm only sad when people die because I believe that they are gone for eternity.

Why, because we miss them less right now? Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds? Of course we realize they are in a much better place, however we still miss them.

Which is also why I said there is an ADDITIONAL sadness when someone you know is not saved dies.

[DoctorDoom]

Maybe someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't it actually only take a second to be saved? Isn't being saved simply accepting Christ as your savior?Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

That only takes a moment, but it's the first step in a lifelong journey. IAC, there is only one reliably recorded deathbed conversion.

Luke 23:39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

[brilliantLiberal]

Well, I can tell you for a fact that I'm not saved and I never will be. If you kill me, I will go straight to hell.
Let me get this clear in my mind. You believe in Heaven, Hell and the concept of salvation, and you willingly reject it and embrace the fact that when you die your soul will be damned for all eternity?

That makes you the biggest fool who ever lived. Most of those who go to Hell do not believe they will have to pay such a consequence for their sins, which is why they do not fear Hell until it is too late. You're right. If you are killed in an accident on the way home you'll go straight to Hell. Think it's cool? Hold your hand over a lighter for a while and see how hot it gets. Now take your entire hand, soak it in gas and repeat the process. You know how your hand feels charring to the bone? Hell's worse. It encompasses your entire body and damnation is eternal. God cannot hear your cries in Hell. If you spend a trillion years begging His forgiveness, He will never hear you.

Real smart.

[nightshade]

Inasmuch as I am not a legislator, the question is irrelevant.

When you vote for a legislator, do you care one way or the other what their position is on the death penalty?

However, I would vote for the death penalty if a crime warranted it, and the issue of whether the criminal or the victim is saved or not would not enter into consideration.

Why not? In other words, do you consider killing an innocent saved person to be equally as bad as killing an innocent unsaved person? What about an innocent unsaved person who never even got a chance to read the Bible?

That can have no effect on the enforcement of criminal law, nor on the nature of the exacted penalties specified by the law. All the law and the courts must consider is whether or not the person broke a law, and the punishments to be exacted if the verdict of the jury is "guilty". Anything else is immaterial.

Again, that has no consequence in terms of the enforcement of criminal law.

I am aware of how criminal law works. Criminal law actually does not even acknowlesge the existence of God, much less consider whether persons involved are saved. This is a new development. Not too long ago criminal law persecuted heresy. However, I am not asking you what the law currently is, I am asking you what you want the law to be.

That can be said of the death of any believer, for any reason.

But only saved people will actually go to heaven, not just any believers.

It's a fate that the perp freely chose when he committed his particular crime. I have no sympathy.

If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.
-- Tony Baretta

The perp should be jailed and executed, of course. All I'm saying is that he should be allowed to get saved first. Do you have anything against that?

I submit that you are baiting, and I'm far too old and world-wise to be sucked into such foolishness.

I respectfully disagree.

[DoctorDoom]

Well, I can tell you for a fact that I'm not saved and I never will be. If you kill me, I will go straight to hell.Obviously you have decided to reject God's offer of salvation. That is your unutterably foolish choice, and you must accept the consequences of it. Whether someone kills you or you die of natural causes, your destiny is the same. And when it happens, you will have no one to blame but yourself.

Every second of life is another opportunity to say "YES!" to God's free gift of eternal life in Christ Jesus. Don't be a fool. Accept it.

2 Cor 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

You aren't guaranteed one more breath, not one more heartbeat. The cemeteries are full of people who thought they had more time. If you waste your life and die unsaved, remember this:

"There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, in the end, 'Thy will be done.' All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell."
-- C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce

Your choice will determine your fate. If you make the wrong choice, so be it.

[nightshade]

Not only did he command death for those who committed murder, but also adultry and homosexuality.

While societal thoughts on the last two have changed, there are many that still agree with putting murder's to death.

Does God want us to give them time to try to get saved or to execute them as soon as possible?

Those who commit crimes need to be PUNISHED. That SHOULD be the goal of our judicial system. Personally I care nothing of their "rehabilitation". And when a Drunk Driver kills someone you love, we can talk about how you'll feel about them just being "rehabilitated" rather than punished as if they weren't drunk!

I never said to "rehabilitate" anyone. You can execute them as soon as they're saved. All I said was to give them time to get saved.

[nightshade]

Why, because we miss them less right now? Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds? Of course we realize they are in a much better place, however we still miss them.

Which is also why I said there is an ADDITIONAL sadness when someone you know is not saved dies.

All I'm saying, is that, for me, it would be a lot lot lot lot lot lot more additional sadness. I would be even more sad about an unsaved person dying than I am sad about people dying right now, when I think that they are gone forever.

[DoctorDoom]

When you vote for a legislator, do you care one way or the other what their position is on the death penalty?I will no longer play your immature game, child. You're trolling. Others might wish to say the same things over and over to you, but you have exceeded my limit of tolerance.

[nightshade]

Let me get this clear in my mind. You believe in Heaven, Hell and the concept of salvation, and you willingly reject it and embrace the fact that when you die your soul will be damned for all eternity?

No, no, of course not. I meant, according to those who believe in heaven and hell, I will go to hell.

[nightshade]

Obviously you have decided to reject God's offer of salvation.

Yes, if that's how you want to put it.

That is your unutterably foolish choice, and you must accept the consequences of it.

Is it my fault that I am a fool?

Whether someone kills you or you die of natural causes, your destiny is the same. And when it happens, you will have no one to blame but yourself.

Every second of life is another opportunity to say "YES!" to God's free gift of eternal life in Christ Jesus. Don't be a fool. Accept it.

Allright. I'll do it. What do you want me to do? What can I do?

2 Cor 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

You aren't guaranteed one more breath, not one more heartbeat. The cemeteries are full of people who thought they had more time. If you waste your life and die unsaved

does God know exactly how long I have left to live?

[nightshade]

I will no longer play your immature game, child.

This is off-topic, but you keep calling me child. You said before that you think I'm lying about my age.

I asked you if you wanted me to prove my age somehow, and you did not respond.

You never even told me how old you think I am.

[jag]

Yes, if that's how you want to put it.



Is it my fault that I am a fool?



Allright. I'll do it. What do you want me to do? What can I do?



does God know exactly how long I have left to live?

How else could you put it?

Yes

:whistle: (you already know the answer to that, now you just think you're clever)

Yes

[nightshade]

How else could you put it?

It turns out I don't actually think that I'm rejecting anything. I'm not lying.

Yes

Is it a mentally retarded person's fault that he's mentally retarded?

:whistle: (you already know the answer to that, now you just think you're clever)

I know it looks like I'm just being an a$$, but the situation is not as simple as you think.

I can pray, I can go to church. I can claim that I am saved. But will I actually be saved? As I understand it, I would have to first believe. How can I make myself believe something? How can anyone? Can you make yourself believe that the earth is flat? Even for a day?

Yes

So God knows whether I will be murdered or I will die of natural causes?

[jag]

Is it a mentally retarded person's fault that he's mentally retarded?


So God knows whether I will be murdered or I will die of natural causes?
A mentally retarded person is just that - not a fool. It is archaic to confuse the two. By knowing that you play the fool in a pretense of being clever. Or as a defense because you choose unwisely but refuse to take responsibility for your choices.

Yes.

[nightshade]

A mentally retarded person is just that - not a fool. It is archaic to confuse the two. By knowing that you play the fool in a pretense of being clever.

If I were clever, I wouldn't be a fool, correct?
If I were clever, I would, according to you, believe in God, correct?

So are you saying that I am too stupid to believe in God or that I'm just pretending that I don't?

Or as a defense because you choose unwisely but refuse to take responsibility for your choices.

How can I take responsibility for not believing in God?
How can I refuse to take responsibility for not believing in God?

Yes.

So God knows whether a murderer will commit a murder before the murderer commits a murder?


You didn't answer my question:
Is it possible for you to believe that the earth is flat? If yes, how? If not, why not?

[TechnoPrincess]

I will no longer play your immature game, child. You're trolling. Others might wish to say the same things over and over to you, but you have exceeded my limit of tolerance.

Ditto

[nightshade]

Ditto

Do you also think I'm lying about my age?

[Warlady]

I'm for it in some cases, against it in other cases.

I just want to see if people have thought about their views on what death is and how it applies to the death penalty, and just how they react to death and killing in general.

Then why didn't you state that in your original post? Why dance around the head of a pin? There's no need to pull teeth here. Just state what you want to know from us and we'll do our best but to ask one question at a time which leads to another and another is annoying. To my eyes you are fishing which is also called trolling. Like Doc, I'm outta here.

[nightshade]

Then why didn't you state that in your original post? Why dance around the head of a pin? There's no need to pull teeth here. Just state what you want to know from us and we'll do our best but to ask one question at a time which leads to another and another is annoying.

the reason I ask one question at a time is so that I don't make any assumptions along the way.

If I start from the end, then people are just going to say: "I never said that, you're putting words in my mouth"

I can answer any questions about my "intentions" at any time. I answered yours immediately. But I need to ask my questions one at a time. The following question depends on the answer to the previous.

To my eyes you are fishing which is also called trolling. Like Doc, I'm outta here.

to be blunt, I think you'll call me a troll no matter what I say. but this is a free country, you can do as you please :)

[HomeschoolrsRUs]

Well, when you kill an unsaved person, you're sending that person to hell for eternity.

Wrong. When an unsaved person is killed, they go to h-ll of their own free will, from their own freewill choice, regardless of whether they were culpable in their own demise (suicide, extreme lifestyle, etc.) or not (murder, accident, etc.).

You kill that person before that person had a chance to become saved.

They will have been given a chance to receive Christ -- they chose, either directly (by saying no, I don't believe), or indirectly (like overhearing a witness testifying to another, looking in a drawer in a hotel room and seeing the Gideon Bible and not picking it up and looking at it, etc.)

Isn't that the worst crime against a person that you can commit?

No, the worst sin a person can commit is rejecting God. It is the ONLY one punishable by 1) total and complete separation from the Father, and 2) eternal d-mnation.

Why not lock the unsaved murderer up for life so that he has a chance to get saved?

You're making the false assumption that the murderer has NOT been given a chance for salvation. With every breath, he has a chance, he makes a choice. Time waits for no man, now is the day and hour of salvation.

If I were Christian, I would not be nearly as sad when saved people die.

If you were a Christian, you would understand exactly what we all have been saying, and you wouldn't put forth such assumptions.

What about an innocent unsaved person who never even got a chance to read the Bible?

The Bible is not a necessity for salvation. No person, man, woman, or child is truly innocent -- For ALL have sinned and come short of the Glory of God. Everyone is given a chance to accept God; their hearts may have become hardened to the point of not realizing or recognizing that they have been given a choice, but that doesn't negate the fact that they have, nor does it nullify the fact that they themselves have made it.

Does God want us to give them time to try to get saved or to execute them as soon as possible?

Time is not man's to give. The Lord says there is a time for every purpose under Heaven -- a time to live, and a time to die. A mortal sin committed, a mortal crime perpetrated, results in a mortal punishment -- the requirement of justice.

Again, if their appointed time to die comes, and they have NOT taken advantage of the chance(s) given, they have no one to blame but themselves.

I never said to "rehabilitate" anyone. You can execute them as soon as they're saved. All I said was to give them time to get saved.

There's only one problem with that theory -- there are only two who know the moment of salvation, the Savior and the saved. Besides, salvation doesn't hinge on enough time given, it hinges on chance(s) given, and the only One Who knows when they, and how many, are given, is the Redeemer Himself.

I know it looks like I'm just being an a$$, but the situation is not as simple as you think.

You don't know how right you are.

I can pray, I can go to church. I can claim that I am saved. But will I actually be saved? As I understand it, I would have to first believe. How can I make myself believe something? How can anyone? Can you make yourself believe that the earth is flat? Even for a day?

Indulge me an example, if you will. Consider the person that has never been in, or felt, love. Does that negate the existence of love? Can the person MAKE themselves fall in love? What if they go to all the places they can go to meet a person to fall in love with, can they CHOOSE to do it? How can a person make themselves fall in love? Love is a very complex emotion, it follows no rules, patterns, and breaks all expectations. It cannot fully be explained, but is immediately recognized for what it is when it happens. A person CAN do things to make themselves for RECEPTIVE to love, to prepare themselves for love, to facilitate love ... but they can't really MAKE themselves fall.

Salvation is similar, somewhat. It sounds round-about, but it's not. When you experience God's Love, the Ultimate Love, you KNOW it, because you feel it and you feel it, because you know it. It happens actively and passively, aggressively and submissively, overwhelmingly and gradually. You recognize the "old" you, but you are no longer that person, you are a "new" you -- your vision has been altered, the blinders removed, a level of understanding is revealed, and your life changed.

So God knows whether I will be murdered or I will die of natural causes?

Yes.

[Trevelyan]

I have no fear of my own death

I wish I were like you.

Anyway, I cannot really give an answer, I just do not know. I hear certain stories of people I do not know, and some of them just make me sad. The same goes for fictional characters in a movie.

[HomeschoolrsRUs]

I have no fear of my own death...

Neither do I, but I suspect it is for very different reasons. :smirky:

[DoctorDoom]

When death is staring him in the face, the atheist bravado will vanish like a candle flame in a tornado.

[Aoife]

I feel sad when people die because I'll never get to interact with them again. While you know they have moved on to better horizons, that total lack of communication and interaction is really awful. We become very attached to the physical embodiment of the soul, it is all we have in this world and when it is gone...
I suppose one could argue it is a selfish emotion. You want that person back here for yourself and what they bring to you. Attachments are hard to let go of.

[Tumblehome]

Neither do I, but I suspect it is for very different reasons. :smirky:

I agree. I actually did a study on death fear and its relation to spiritual belief a long lone time ago when I was doing my undergraduate degree (in psych).

It turns out that the atheists and the highly spiritual/religious have the least death fear and that those in the middle have the highest. Those that are most uncertain about their religion/spirituality have the greatest death fear.

This was done only with a christian sample, and in that regard it makes sense. Atheists believe that there is no afterlife and thus they literally have nothing to fear. The highly spiritual/religious believe in heavan and believe that they are going there. In one sense I'm suprised that these people are not a little bit looking forward to death and heavan.

[Tumblehome]

When death is staring him in the face, the atheist bravado will vanish like a candle flame in a tornado.

Myth: There are no atheists in foxholes.

This is not true. There are even atheists in your own military.

Many atheists facing death simply accept their fate. Most fear dying much more than the state of non-being (there is literally nothing to fear).

Some atheists facing death may reach out in desparation to whatever they can cling to, which, yes, may be a myth they heard about some higher power to save them (need not be your God and often isn't).
Desperate people sometimes act irrationally, be it denial or self delusion.

[Wyatt_Junker]

The socratic method is annoying because of the pretense involved. Namely, by asking dumb questions, questions central and obvious to human nature, the questioner pretends to be either Vulcan or retarded. Its a blonde approach in a world crawling with redheads.

Lawyers channel Socrates in court. And lefties also employ it because they don't like to show their cards at first glance since leftism is now a slur. No one wants to put it on their resume because its a novice expression of their worldliness. So they hide-n-seek in circles, rope-a-dope the obvious and keep playing switch thumb with the imaginary friend.

Folks, all you had to do on question one haymaker of this luh-oo-zer, is mock 'it'. The only thing a wannabe Socrates in training can't handle is scorn.

Example??? Sure...

Why are we sad when people die?

Answer: Because of the stench on day three. Makes my eyes tear right the fuk up.

It also kills a long-winded 3 page thread on impact.

So, what's the moral of this story? The next time someone asks you why one plus one equals two(if they over the age of 6), tell them 'because it does asshole'. Then, move on.

Seminar over.

[Wyatt_Junker]

I think I'm gonna try the inverse Socratic converse method. In psych 101, we called it mirroring.

Are you happy when people live?










































































































The smoke you can blow up a person's ass is amazing, especially when you make it 'clinical' smoke.

[Riverboat]

The smoke you can blow up a person's ass is amazing, especially when you make it 'clinical' smoke.That was one helluva long rhetorical pause. Or did you forget to post a picture of Freud with a burning penile wish-fulfillment in his mouth?

[nightshade]

Wrong. When an unsaved person is killed, they go to h-ll of their own free will, from their own freewill choice, regardless of whether they were culpable in their own demise (suicide, extreme lifestyle, etc.) or not (murder, accident, etc.).

I didn't mean it in the way that the killer is the cause of the victim's sin, I meant that the killer ends the victim's life earlier than the victim expected it.

For example, there have been many drug addicts who later stopped using drugs and found God. What if someone killed such an addict before he found God?

They will have been given a chance to receive Christ -- they chose, either directly (by saying no, I don't believe), or indirectly (like overhearing a witness testifying to another, looking in a drawer in a hotel room and seeing the Gideon Bible and not picking it up and looking at it, etc.)

What about people who were never exposed to Christianity at all? Like the Mayas or Incas.

No, the worst sin a person can commit is rejecting God. It is the ONLY one punishable by 1) total and complete separation from the Father, and 2) eternal d-mnation.

Yes, I said a crime against another person, not the worst sin period.

You're making the false assumption that the murderer has NOT been given a chance for salvation. With every breath, he has a chance, he makes a choice. Time waits for no man, now is the day and hour of salvation.

I'm not assuming that he was never given a chance, I'm just asking why not give him more chances - as many as possible.

If you were a Christian, you would understand exactly what we all have been saying, and you wouldn't put forth such assumptions.

So you're saying that I would be almost as sad when a saved person dies as when an unsaved person dies? I don't see why that would be the case.

I would want to die as soon as possible. I would want to be in heaven with God than on earth. The only reason I wouldn't try to kill myself is because God doesn't allow it.

The Bible is not a necessity for salvation. No person, man, woman, or child is truly innocent -- For ALL have sinned and come short of the Glory of God. Everyone is given a chance to accept God; their hearts may have become hardened to the point of not realizing or recognizing that they have been given a choice, but that doesn't negate the fact that they have, nor does it nullify the fact that they themselves have made it.

Two questions:

What made their hearts harden so much that they can't accept God?

And what about those who never even heard of Christianity at all?

Time is not man's to give. The Lord says there is a time for every purpose under Heaven -- a time to live, and a time to die. A mortal sin committed, a mortal crime perpetrated, results in a mortal punishment -- the requirement of justice.

So does God want us to kill murderers immediately or is it not specified?

Again, if their appointed time to die comes, and they have NOT taken advantage of the chance(s) given, they have no one to blame but themselves.

Yes, but should their appointed time be as soon as they are caught or can it be later?

There's only one problem with that theory -- there are only two who know the moment of salvation, the Savior and the saved. Besides, salvation doesn't hinge on enough time given, it hinges on chance(s) given, and the only One Who knows when they, and how many, are given, is the Redeemer Himself.

OK, so why not execute the criminal at the latest time possible? We don't know if he's been saved or how many chances he's had, so why not wait as long as possible to execute him?

Indulge me an example, if you will. Consider the person that has never been in, or felt, love. Does that negate the existence of love? Can the person MAKE themselves fall in love? What if they go to all the places they can go to meet a person to fall in love with, can they CHOOSE to do it?

"no" to all of the above questions

How can a person make themselves fall in love?

You tell me.

Love is a very complex emotion, it follows no rules, patterns, and breaks all expectations. It cannot fully be explained, but is immediately recognized for what it is when it happens. A person CAN do things to make themselves for RECEPTIVE to love, to prepare themselves for love, to facilitate love ... but they can't really MAKE themselves fall.

OK, what can a person do to make him/herself more receptive to love?

Salvation is similar, somewhat. It sounds round-about, but it's not. When you experience God's Love, the Ultimate Love, you KNOW it, because you feel it and you feel it, because you know it. It happens actively and passively, aggressively and submissively, overwhelmingly and gradually. You recognize the "old" you, but you are no longer that person, you are a "new" you -- your vision has been altered, the blinders removed, a level of understanding is revealed, and your life changed.

OK, so what can I do to make myself more receptive to the Ultimate Love?

Yes.

So God knows if any given person will commit murder sometime in the future?

[HomeschoolrsRUs]

I didn't mean it in the way that the killer is the cause of the victim's sin, I meant that the killer ends the victim's life earlier than the victim expected it.

Irrelevant. We can't arrange our lives to accept Christ at the "optimum" time for us. He extends an invitation on His time schedule, and nothing we do has an effect on His timing. We can't ask for "more time" to make the decision.


For example, there have been many drug addicts who later stopped using drugs and found God. What if someone killed such an addict before he found God?


You use the expression "before he found God," but God is not the One lost. That drug addict made a choice and faces consequences for their choices. In this case, it resulted in being killed (whether a causal link between the drug addiction, or random act of violance, makes no difference). At some point in that person's life, they have been exposed to God, and had a chance to accept Him or reject Him. Sometimes they've been given multiple opportunities, in others maybe not so many -- all occur under the direct knowledge, control and power of God, not man.


What about people who were never exposed to Christianity at all? Like the Mayas or Incas.


This question has been one I've pondered myself. I have posed this question to a pastor I once knew, and it was explained to me this way. "Christianity" is a label that man has attatched to the religious aspects of following Christ. But God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit all existed PRIOR to Christ's physical form on earth, and even before the compilation of the Bible. In different cultures, most all that I'm aware of, have ascribed to the Presence of a Higher Being, and perhaps they all have given Him different names. It's confusing to us, because what we know, what has been revealed to us is called "Christianity." The Lord, however, knows the intents of the heart. Those of other cultures who had knowledge of the Lord, were known to the Lord, even if they had a different "Name" for Him.

We can speculate from here to eternity, but we can never know or be satisfied without doubt as to whether or not they were "saved." There is but One that knows for sure (regarding those already passed). That said, it doesn't change the fact that in the here and now, we do know whether we are, and we can reason if another is or not based upon their fruit, their actions, their demeanor, etc. That doesn't mean it's foolproof, and so we are cautioned not to be decieved by false conversion, and to continue to spread the message of the Gospel through the Great Commission.



Yes, I said a crime against another person, not the worst sin period.


Forgive me for misinterpreting, let me try again.

You kill that person before that person had a chance to become saved. Isn't that the worst crime against a person that you can commit?

No, it isn't the worst crime, because the "chance" wasn't dependent upon the person. God gives the chance regardless of our actions. We cannot preempt God.


I'm not assuming that he was never given a chance, I'm just asking why not give him more chances - as many as possible.

Once again, the chance(s) are not controlled by man, but by God. If a person commits a crime, punishment is a result. If the person does not accept God prior to the punishment meted out, they are forever lost. They WILL have been given a chance (or more) in their lives -- they may have rejected it directly or indirectly.

So you're saying that I would be almost as sad when a saved person dies as when an unsaved person dies? I don't see why that would be the case.

You're assigning similitude and equity to greif -- grief is not measured in that manner. A person who loses a loved one that is saved, grieves mostly for themselves, the loss of that person's physical being in their lives. Love grieves love lost. A person who loses a loved one that is unsaved, grieves both for their loss in this life and the one beyond. The depth of the emotional distress cannot be compared, because it is quite like the old addage of comparing apples to oranges.

You don't understand this, as I said, because you aren't equipped to -- you're lacking a necessary requirement, knowledge of the Father.

I would want to die as soon as possible. I would want to be in heaven with God than on earth. The only reason I wouldn't try to kill myself is because God doesn't allow it.

You are incapable of knowing that. You can make an assertion that you might react that way, but you cannot know how you would react. In fact, Christians DO look forward to Heaven, but at the same time, we ARE human, and we KNOW we have a purpose here on earth. We are equally excited by the prospect of being used by God to further His Kingdom here on earth.

Two questions: What made their hearts harden so much that they can't accept God?

Sin, personal choice.


And what about those who never even heard of Christianity at all?


I believe I addressed this above. God knows the intents of the heart, and He knows if they know Him.

So does God want us to kill murderers immediately or is it not specified?


As far as I know, consequences are discussed in the Bible, but not a time-frame. I could be wrong on this, however, so others may wish to expound on it more aptly than I.

Yes, but should their appointed time be as soon as they are caught or can it be later?


My personal thought on the matter, is allow three years for appeal prior to the exercise of the death penalty. The appointed time, however, is decided upon by the law.

OK, so why not execute the criminal at the latest time possible?


Because justice demands it be expeditious. By NOT exercising timely justice, ANOTHER crime (imho) is committed -- further infringement upon the rights of society. Why should we requre a society who had no culpability in the criminal's actions to pay to sustain the criminal? The family of the victim deserves an end to the matter. The criminal has forfeited his rights by CHOICE when they committed the crime.


We don't know if he's been saved or how many chances he's had, so why not wait as long as possible to execute him?


His salvation is not dependent upon our knowledge of the fact. Again, we cannot preempt God. He gives the chance(s), not man, and the chance(s) are not dependent upon man's time-table.


OK, what can a person do to make him/herself more receptive to love?


Be a loving, giving, caring person. Think of others before one's self. Be a good friend. Volunteer. Commit one's self to unselfish causes. Avoid selfish thought and deed. Etc. All I believe will help -- certainly they can't hurt :smirky: .


OK, so what can I do to make myself more receptive to the Ultimate Love?


Study God's Word, consult with people of faith, abstain from sinful actions, pray, read spiritually uplifting material, avoid worldy temptation, etc. All of these, however, will do nothing if you don't seriously and earnestly seek --- if you attempt these things with a mocking spirit, or are trying to debunk it, it won't matter how much you do, you'll miss out.


So God knows if any given person will commit murder sometime in the future?

Yes, but we don't.

[DoctorDoom]

Sister Hms, I haven't the merest doubt that the troll is an atheist. His/her ignorance of Christianity and the Bible, and the reliance on standard talking-points rhetoric, tell me all that I need to know about the person's intention in posting. If there were the merest desire to learn, it would have happened 80 posts ago.

The troll has declared that he/she will never be saved. That is a flat rejection of Christ Jesus, and there is only one fate for anyone that does that.

[HomeschoolrsRUs]

Sister Hms, I haven't the merest doubt that the troll is an atheist. His/her ignorance of Christianity and the Bible, and the reliance on standard talking-points rhetoric, tell me all that I need to know about the person's intention in posting. If there were the merest desire to learn, it would have happened 80 posts ago.

The troll has declared that he/she will never be saved. That is a flat rejection of Christ Jesus, and there is only one fate for anyone that does that.

I know you are correct, Doc -- I'm very grateful you have my back. I think I've actually had discussions with this one before -- in fact, I'm quite sure of it, because I questioned if s/he was the same Nightshade on IIDB.

Doesn't matter, really. When the Lord compells me to speak up, I want to try to be obedient (optimal word being try, LOL, more often than not I fail to recognize his prompting ... most especially in public places, where it is much harder to use a voice).

I have a question for you though, Doc, if you don't mind a little off-thread. Might I ask your response to one of nightshade's questions? Was my response accurate, flawed, or perhaps slightly off?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nightshade
What about people who were never exposed to Christianity at all? Like the Mayas or Incas.

[Nutrider99]

I have a question for you though, Doc, if you don't mind a little off-thread. Might I ask your response to one of nightshade's questions? Was my response accurate, flawed, or perhaps slightly off?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nightshade
What about people who were never exposed to Christianity at all? Like the Mayas or Incas.
What of those for whom salvation is not easily attained, for those who never hear the word of god, never experience salvation, never see a Bible. What of them? Do they go to Heaven anyway? No. Without forgiveness their sin will keep them from Heaven. Will they go to Hell? Maybe, but I don't really think so.

I think their destruction is complete- destruction of their body and spirit. I believe when they die their soul dies as well. God holds man accountable for his own sins. If man has no access to salvation, then how could be by ignorance have access to damnation?

Still, that is only my interpretation of things. As Christians we need to be ambassadors of God toward men so that by our examples the unsaved can become saved.

[MSGT]

I have a question for you though, Doc, if you don't mind a little off-thread. Might I ask your response to one of nightshade's questions? Was my response accurate, flawed, or perhaps slightly off?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nightshade
What about people who were never exposed to Christianity at all? Like the Mayas or Incas.

If I might be so bold,

Creation judges against them
Rom 1:20 For the unseen things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being realized by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, for them to be without excuse.

Conscience judges against them
Rom 2:1 Therefore you are without excuse, O man, everyone who judges; for in that in which you judge another, you condemn yourself, for you who judge do the same things.
Rom 2:2 But know that the judgment of God is according to truth on those who practice such things.
Rom 2:3 And, O man, the one judging those who do such things, and practice them, do you think this, that you shall escape the judgment of God?
Rom 2:4 Or do you despise the riches of His kindness, and the forbearance and long-suffering, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?
Rom 2:5 But according to your hardness and your impenitent heart, do you treasure up wrath for yourself in a day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
Rom 2:6 who will render to each according to his works;
Rom 2:7 indeed to those who with patience in good work are seeking for glory, and honor, and incorruptibility, everlasting life.
Rom 2:8 But to those who indeed disobeying the truth out of self-seeking, and obeying unrighteousness, will be anger and wrath,
Rom 2:9 tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man who has worked out evil; of the Jew first, and also of the Greek.
Rom 2:10 But He will give glory, honor and peace to every man who works good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of faces with God.
Rom 2:12 For as many as sinned without Law will also perish without Law. And as many as have sinned within Law shall be judged through Law.
Rom 2:13 For it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when the nations, who do not have the Law, do by nature the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law unto themselves;
Rom 2:15 who show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and the thoughts between one another accusing or even excusing one another,
Rom 2:16 in a day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Rom 2:17 Behold, you are called a Jew, and rest in the Law, and boast in God;
Rom 2:18 and know His will and approve the things excelling, being instructed out of the Law;
Rom 2:19 and persuading yourselves to be a guide of the blind, a light to those in darkness;
Rom 2:20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, who have the form of knowledge and of the truth in the Law.
Rom 2:21 Therefore the one teaching another, do you not teach yourself? The one preaching not to steal, do you steal?
Rom 2:22 The one saying not to commit adultery, do you commit adultery? The one detesting idols, do you rob temples?
Rom 2:23 You who boast in Law, do you dishonor God through breaking the Law?
Rom 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the nations because of you, as it is written.
Rom 2:25 For circumcision truly profits if you keep the Law, but if you are a transgressor of the Law, circumcision becomes uncircumcision.
Rom 2:26 If then the uncircumcision keeps the ordinances of the Law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
Rom 2:27 And the uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfills the Law, shall it not judge you, who through letter and circumcision become transgressors of the Law?
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that outwardly in flesh;

[DoctorDoom]

Thanks, MSGT. That's the passage I use when the issue is raised. We will ALL be judged. However, God will not judge those who have never had the opportunity to make a decision to accept Christ Jesus by different standards than He will apply to those who have heard the Gospel and rejected it.

I do not pretend to know exactly how God will judge Mayans or Incans or the billions of others throughout history who never heard of Jesus. It is only necessary for me to know that God is perfectly fair and just, and that no one will be in hell against his/her will.

[MSGT]

Wow, I just read this thread. Somebody get the hook.:thumb:

[MSGT]

Thanks, MSGT. :thumb::thumb:

[Timberwolf]

Wuff...

nightshade, the ONLY thing I can add is this. If you haven't felt the "tugging" at your soul by now, you likely never will. Should that be the case, the only one you can blame for your eternal dwelling place shall be yourself.

We mortals must come to grips with our mortality BEFORE we leave this rock. Some, thinking themselves wise, are too blinded by pride in their own intellect and/or hard-hearted by their disdain of those who submit to the will of God, to recognize the very generous and freely given gift afforded them by an extremely loving, just and long-suffering God. Most are lost...some are not...which are you?

You've had your questions answered, now YOU must make the choice. Choose wisely.

[Timberwolf]

That being said, I am saddened when a loved one dies and I know s/he hadn't come to salvation. Once that last breath is exhaled, it is too late and THAT is the mother of all sadness (to me)...this applies to those I don't know, too. That is why I take the time to respond to complete strangers on the internet. ALL people matter and for any of us to go to our grave without Christ saddens not only Homes, Doc, Nut, Wyatt, myself etal, it saddens GOD. He gave us Christ that NO ONE should perish and that ALL should have everlasting life. It is OUR choice.

I also mourn MY loss...it is a very selfish act, but a very normal human reaction. When a loved one dies, there is a void that must heal. Time is one's greatest ally in this situation, but sometimes time is not enough...the pain doesn't subside. That is when dependence upon the strength of God is absolutely necessary.

[Tumblehome]

Well put Timberwolf. Death hurts the survivors much more than the departed.

[HomeschoolrsRUs]

Death hurts the survivors much more than the departed.

Not the departed lost souls (read unsaved), for them the hurt is ultimate pain.

[Trevelyan]

Has anyone else ever, or maybe even currently, gone back and forth between hoping there was an afterlife and that there was just nothing following death? I don’t know, this seems to happen to me often.

At one moment in time I hope for and look forward to a heaven, yet with that also comes a fear that there may actually be a hell, and I don’t really know what my standing would be. Other times I just want it all to be over after death, but maybe those thoughts come out of the stress and fatigue associated with this world, and complete nothingness, similar to a dreamless session of sleep, can seem rather nice.

I don’t know. :)

[Tumblehome]

Trev, I was born into a Christian family and raised to believe in it and only broke free later. I went back and forth a few times during my time of doubting. I know exactly what you mean. I expect it is fairly common.

I guess Christians who are convinced they are heavan bound have nice calming thoughts about afterdeath, Christians who are not sure about their salvation (I've met very few of those) are probably nervous about death, and I can tell ya that us non-believers neither fear nor look forward to death. For us, death is nothingness. I liken it to how you feel when you are sleeping but not dreaming - you simply don't sense anything because there is no you.

I think the idea of one ceasing to exist is part of what led our ancestors to wish for and believe in afterlives. Many find it uncomfortable, the idea that they will cease to exist. It would make an interesting psych study.

[nightshade]

Irrelevant. We can't arrange our lives to accept Christ at the "optimum" time for us. He extends an invitation on His time schedule, and nothing we do has an effect on His timing. We can't ask for "more time" to make the decision.

I didn't say that we should arrange our lives in one way or another.

If someone is unsaved, then he needs to accept God before he dies or he will go to h-ll. We don't know how many chances God has given that person or how many more He will give to the person. It's possible that God will give the person another chance, correct? So why not let the person live, just in case he gets another chance from God?

You use the expression "before he found God," but God is not the One lost.

I didn't say God was lost.

That drug addict made a choice and faces consequences for their choices.

Unless the addict finds God.

In this case, it resulted in being killed (whether a causal link between the drug addiction, or random act of violance, makes no difference).

The addict was not directly responsible for getting killed if it's a random act of violence.

At some point in that person's life, they have been exposed to God, and had a chance to accept Him or reject Him. Sometimes they've been given multiple opportunities, in others maybe not so many -- all occur under the direct knowledge, control and power of God, not man.

Yes, but we don't know if God is intending to give more chances to the person or not, so we want that person to live. Right?


This question has been one I've pondered myself. I have posed this question to a pastor I once knew, and it was explained to me this way. "Christianity" is a label that man has attatched to the religious aspects of following Christ. But God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit all existed PRIOR to Christ's physical form on earth, and even before the compilation of the Bible. In different cultures, most all that I'm aware of, have ascribed to the Presence of a Higher Being, and perhaps they all have given Him different names. It's confusing to us, because what we know, what has been revealed to us is called "Christianity." The Lord, however, knows the intents of the heart. Those of other cultures who had knowledge of the Lord, were known to the Lord, even if they had a different "Name" for Him.

We can speculate from here to eternity, but we can never know or be satisfied without doubt as to whether or not they were "saved." There is but One that knows for sure (regarding those already passed). That said, it doesn't change the fact that in the here and now, we do know whether we are, and we can reason if another is or not based upon their fruit, their actions, their demeanor, etc. That doesn't mean it's foolproof, and so we are cautioned not to be decieved by false conversion, and to continue to spread the message of the Gospel through the Great Commission.

Fair enough. Leave it at that for now.

No, it isn't the worst crime, because the "chance" wasn't dependent upon the person. God gives the chance regardless of our actions. We cannot preempt God.

Once again, the chance(s) are not controlled by man, but by God. If a person commits a crime, punishment is a result. If the person does not accept God prior to the punishment meted out, they are forever lost. They WILL have been given a chance (or more) in their lives -- they may have rejected it directly or indirectly.

Let me clarify - when I say "give someone a chance" I mean "keep him alive in case God gives him another chance". I'm not saying that we can make someone saved, I'm saying that we don't know whether or not God will give the person another chance.

You're assigning similitude and equity to greif -- grief is not measured in that manner. A person who loses a loved one that is saved, grieves mostly for themselves, the loss of that person's physical being in their lives. Love grieves love lost. A person who loses a loved one that is unsaved, grieves both for their loss in this life and the one beyond. The depth of the emotional distress cannot be compared, because it is quite like the old addage of comparing apples to oranges.

Hold on, there's a definite difference between missing someone while they are absent for a long time and real grief over a person who you've lost forever or worse.

I hadn't seen my sister for over 10 years untill i finally met up with her this summer. I was happy to see her again, and I missed her before that. However, the feeling of missing my sister was not even comparable to the feeling of grief I would have felt if she had died.

I will probably live for another 50-60 years. If my sister died right now and I believed that she was in heaven and that I would see her again in 50-60 years, and then spend eternity in heaven, I honestly don't think I would be sad. If she were unsaved, however, I would be completely and entirely devestated.

You don't understand this, as I said, because you aren't equipped to -- you're lacking a necessary requirement, knowledge of the Father.

Allright, fair enough.

You are incapable of knowing that. You can make an assertion that you might react that way, but you cannot know how you would react. In fact, Christians DO look forward to Heaven, but at the same time, we ARE human, and we KNOW we have a purpose here on earth. We are equally excited by the prospect of being used by God to further His Kingdom here on earth.

Again, not being Christian I can't say exactly how I would behave, I can only say how I think I would. But I really can't see what's so special about a century in a fallen world compared to eternity in paradise.

Will we even remember all the stupid things about life on earth such as waking up to go to work every day? I can't fathom what's so great about that.


Sin, personal choice.

So does that mean that once someone sins, their heart can become too hardened to ever accept God again? And same question for choice, I guess.

As far as I know, consequences are discussed in the Bible, but not a time-frame. I could be wrong on this, however, so others may wish to expound on it more aptly than I.

Is it OK to assume that it's not specified for now?


My personal thought on the matter, is allow three years for appeal prior to the exercise of the death penalty. The appointed time, however, is decided upon by the law.

Because justice demands it be expeditious. By NOT exercising timely justice, ANOTHER crime (imho) is committed -- further infringement upon the rights of society. Why should we requre a society who had no culpability in the criminal's actions to pay to sustain the criminal?

To try to save that criminal's immortal soul. How can you put a price on that?

The family of the victim deserves an end to the matter. The criminal has forfeited his rights by CHOICE when they committed the crime.

Like I said, if the victim was unsaved, I can see their point. But if the victim was saved, I don't see how the crime justifies the punishment.

His salvation is not dependent upon our knowledge of the fact. Again, we cannot preempt God. He gives the chance(s), not man, and the chance(s) are not dependent upon man's time-table.

Again, I'm not saying that WE are giving the criminal a chance, I'm saying that we don't know when GOD will give the criminal a chance. We can only pray that God will give the criminal another chance before the criminal dies and to keep the criminal alive in case God decides to do so.

Be a loving, giving, caring person. Think of others before one's self. Be a good friend. Volunteer. Commit one's self to unselfish causes. Avoid selfish thought and deed. Etc. All I believe will help -- certainly they can't hurt :smirky: .

I think I am all those things, though I'm no Mother Teresa.


And I can't promise to devote my life to helping others. If that's what it would take for me to see God, I'm out of luck.

Study God's Word, consult with people of faith,

Unfortunately, the second part is what lead me to declare myself an atheist in the first place.

abstain from sinful actions, pray,

Praying is also a problem. I don't see how I can pray until I'm a believer. I first have to believe that I'm talking to God before I can try to talk to God, otherwise I'm just talking to myself.

read spiritually uplifting material, avoid worldy temptation, etc. All of these, however, will do nothing if you don't seriously and earnestly seek --- if you attempt these things with a mocking spirit,

I don't mock anything or anyone as a general principle. I consider it beneath me.

or are trying to debunk it,

I don't actively try to debunk anything, but I can't change my belief about something for no reason. So I can't just start praying, for example, and believe it's real.

it won't matter how much you do, you'll miss out.




Yes, but we don't.

So God allready knows what choices in life everyone will make?

[nightshade]

Wuff...

nightshade, the ONLY thing I can add is this. If you haven't felt the "tugging" at your soul by now,

I can honestly say that I have not.

you likely never will.

Are you positive? Should I even try? If so, what should I do?

Should that be the case, the only one you can blame for your eternal dwelling place shall be yourself.

We mortals must come to grips with our mortality BEFORE we leave this rock. Some, thinking themselves wise, are too blinded by pride in their own intellect and/or hard-hearted by their disdain of those who submit to the will of God, to recognize the very generous and freely given gift afforded them by an extremely loving, just and long-suffering God. Most are lost...some are not...which are you?

According to you, I'm lost.

You've had your questions answered, now YOU must make the choice. Choose wisely.

So am I lost or not?

[nightshade]

Has anyone else ever, or maybe even currently, gone back and forth between hoping there was an afterlife and that there was just nothing following death? I don’t know, this seems to happen to me often.

At one moment in time I hope for and look forward to a heaven, yet with that also comes a fear that there may actually be a hell, and I don’t really know what my standing would be. Other times I just want it all to be over after death, but maybe those thoughts come out of the stress and fatigue associated with this world, and complete nothingness, similar to a dreamless session of sleep, can seem rather nice.

I don’t know. :)

Do you think you could live normally knowing that there is nothing after death?

[Wyatt_Junker]

Why limit God? He could save someone in 30 years time of recurring and endless appeals fighting the death penalty or in 2 seconds time accepting it. I don't hand-wring over God's ability.

Regardless, the death penalty makes the conscience mushroom. The death penalty is as beautiful as the serrated edge of a knife catching sunlight. You'd be surprised how amplified one's metaphysical bent gets when the hypos of death juice are brandished, even if it means just pissing one's orange prison jumpsuit. I'd call that a confession, non-verbal sure. The DP elevates the conscience and causes the conversion to occur at not only a much faster rate but with greater intensity along the way. Time is irrelevant to the discussion. You can have 40 solid years of mundane existence or a quick 30 second encounter with a spiritual dilemma. I choose we give them 30 seconds. God is capable of ministering either way, with a short high pressure blast of spiritual conviction or 40 years of pecking.

[HomeschoolrsRUs]

I didn't say that we should arrange our lives in one way or another.


If someone is unsaved, then he needs to accept God before he dies or he will go to h-ll. We don't know how many chances God has given that person or how many more He will give to the person. It's possible that God will give the person another chance, correct? So why not let the person live, just in case he gets another chance from God?

You are suggesting that God needs our cooperation (by extending the period of time) to allow Him to reach the lost soul and bring him/her to salvation. This is wrong, we cannot preempt God's Plans ... He knows exactly how much time the criminal has prior to receiving the consequences (death penalty) for their actions. It doesn't matter if it's three years, three months, three days, or three minutes -- the chance(s) come from God, He extends them on HIS time-frame, not ours.

I didn't say God was lost.

No, not directly -- but one does usually find that which is lost, no?




Unless the addict finds God.

:question: No, regardless of whether or not the (lost) addict is saved, he or she must still suffer the mortal consequences (her on earth) for their actions/sins.

The addict was not directly responsible for getting killed if it's a random act of violence.

Very often than not, one cannot suffer the wrong thing happening if they are not in the wrong place, with the wrong people, doing the wrong thing(s). The addict may not suffer the consequences DIRECTLY from his addiction, but indirectly they usually can be traced back to bad decisions/choices made, i.e. perhaps he was traveling in his car on the "wrong" side of town to go purchase drugs, and is carjacked and killed on the way. The addiction didn't directly cause the "random act of violence" but it is certainly a causal link and the chances increased due to their unwise choices. The chances are hardly comparable to that of Susie Homespun hanging up clothes in her backyard on a warm spring day in the burbs.

Yes, but we don't know if God is intending to give more chances to the person or not, so we want that person to live. Right?

We don't know, no, but God does -- and that's all that matters. His invitation (for salvation) isn't dependent upon our timetable or time extension. He knows perfectly well how much time the criminal has, and His plans cannot be preempted by man's.

Fair enough. Leave it at that for now.

Agreed.

Let me clarify - when I say "give someone a chance" I mean "keep him alive in case God gives him another chance". I'm not saying that we can make someone saved, I'm saying that we don't know whether or not God will give the person another chance.

God doesn't need us to "keep him alive" in case He wants to give them another chance -- He can extend those chances well in advance of any mortal plans. It's not necessary for US to know whether God has given all the chances He's going to give, if God is going to move, He will do so regardless of what WE do.

Hold on, there's a definite difference between missing someone while they are absent for a long time and real grief over a person who you've lost forever or worse.

I hadn't seen my sister for over 10 years untill i finally met up with her this summer. I was happy to see her again, and I missed her before that. However, the feeling of missing my sister was not even comparable to the feeling of grief I would have felt if she had died.

I will probably live for another 50-60 years. If my sister died right now and I believed that she was in heaven and that I would see her again in 50-60 years, and then spend eternity in heaven, I honestly don't think I would be sad. If she were unsaved, however, I would be completely and entirely devestated.

I believe that's the point I was trying to make -- all grief is different, and not measurable by the same scale. It is different for each person, each circumstance, each loss. You may project thoughts of how you "think' you might feel, but it's impossible to understand fully, predict completely, exactly what they will be until your in the midst of the grief.

Allright, fair enough.

I do try, best as I can, to be fair, :smirky: .

Again, not being Christian I can't say exactly how I would behave, I can only say how I think I would.

Precisely, which is exactly why this conversation is so difficult. Hard to reach each other when we are not standing on common ground to begin with.

But I really can't see what's so special about a century in a fallen world compared to eternity in paradise.

Will we even remember all the stupid things about life on earth such as waking up to go to work every day? I can't fathom what's so great about that.

Again, you cannot see, because you aren't equipped to.

So does that mean that once someone sins, their heart can become too hardened to ever accept God again? And same question for choice, I guess.

Is it possible for one sin or one choice to accomplish that? Yes. More likely, however, it is the build-up of many sins and/or choices which all lend themselves to he hardening and thickening of the Spritual "skin," so to speak, which will eventually result in causing the soul to be all but impenetrable (I say all but, because WE cannot judge that point -- which is why we are commanded to keep trying to reach the lost, only God knows if they are beyond redemption, not man). But redemption does NOT equal no responsibility for actions -- regardless of salvation, there are still mortal consequences for choices/decisions/sins, BUT they DO have immortal consequences for their salvation ... everlasting life eternal through Christ.

Is it OK to assume that it's not specified for now?

Agreed.

To try to save that criminal's immortal soul. How can you put a price on that?

We cannot save souls -- only God can. He doesn't need us for the job, He can do it all by Himself without interference from us, even without extension of sentence.

Like I said, if the victim was unsaved, I can see their point. But if the victim was saved, I don't see how the crime justifies the punishment.

Murder is murder, and requires the same sentence regardless ... one who negates (read terminates) the life of another, forfeits his own in return. There is NO other equitable punishment available.

Again, I'm not saying that WE are giving the criminal a chance, I'm saying that we don't know when GOD will give the criminal a chance. We can only pray that God will give the criminal another chance before the criminal dies and to keep the criminal alive in case God decides to do so.

No, you're saying WE have to give God the chance -- He doesn't need us to give him/her the chance. Our participation isn't necessary, He can reach the lost in a blink of an eye. If He chooses to touch the heart of a murderer, He can do so in 3 seconds as easily as 30 years.

I think I am all those things, though I'm no Mother Teresa. And I can't promise to devote my life to helping others. If that's what it would take for me to see God, I'm out of luck.

I believe you are a bit confused here ... in the first question you asked me "OK, what can a person do to make him/herself more receptive to love?" , not God's Love.


Unfortunately, the second part is what lead me to declare myself an atheist in the first place.

ALL men fail, all men sin and fall short of the Glory of God; put not your faith in man, but in the Father Who is Perfect. Believe me, I could share some "horror" stories too regarding "men of faith" of come in contact with. That they were not good witnesses for the Father, in no way reflects the True Nature of Him -- only THEIR sin nature. (If it makes you feel any better, you might be surprised to find out that I, myself, was BANNED from a particular church -- because one of their "charter members" didn't like me and claimed she couldn't fellowship with the Lord with me in the room, :crazy: .)

Praying is also a problem. I don't see how I can pray until I'm a believer. I first have to believe that I'm talking to God before I can try to talk to God, otherwise I'm just talking to myself.

I just think you're going about it from the wrong way. Pray as if seeking ... ask Him to show Himself to you in a way that would help make Him more real to you. After asking, EXPECT for Him to speak, pay attention in your day, to your circumstances, listen for that small, still voice. It may not happen over night, it might happen in an instant, it may never happen, but if you think it WON'T happen you close the door on Him before you've had the chance to see Who's standing at the threshhold.

I don't mock anything or anyone as a general principle. I consider it beneath me.

Mocking is beneath you, or anything or anyone as a general principle is beneath you?

I don't actively try to debunk anything, but I can't change my belief about something for no reason. So I can't just start praying, for example, and believe it's real.

There have actually been those individuals who started out trying to debunk Christ, and were instead touched by Him and drawn into the fold.

You wouldn't be praying for no reason, you would be praying with an expectation of something happening -- there are three possibilities, nothing happens, whereby you remain outside the realm of Christ, something happens but you don't understand it and so dismiss it, or He reaches you and you are changed. At least you will go into it knowing something will happen -- but don't just expect nothing to happen, or you eliminate the possibility of anything else happening. Open yourself up, and ask Him to show you something. And don't just stop at once -- keep trying, if you truly want to give it (and Him) a chance. If you simply want to dismiss this in hand, you will receive what you expect.

So God allready knows what choices in life everyone will make?

Yes.

[nightshade]

You are suggesting that God needs our cooperation (by extending the period of time) to allow Him to reach the lost soul and bring him/her to salvation. This is wrong, we cannot preempt God's Plans ... He knows exactly how much time the criminal has prior to receiving the consequences (death penalty) for their actions. It doesn't matter if it's three years, three months, three days, or three minutes -- the chance(s) come from God, He extends them on HIS time-frame, not ours.

ok

:question: No, regardless of whether or not the (lost) addict is saved, he or she must still suffer the mortal consequences (her on earth) for their actions/sins.

Would you say that all sinners are punished on earth, and not just in the afterlife?


Very often than not, one cannot suffer the wrong thing happening if they are not in the wrong place, with the wrong people, doing the wrong thing(s). The addict may not suffer the consequences DIRECTLY from his addiction, but indirectly they usually can be traced back to bad decisions/choices made, i.e. perhaps he was traveling in his car on the "wrong" side of town to go purchase drugs, and is carjacked and killed on the way. The addiction didn't directly cause the "random act of violence" but it is certainly a causal link and the chances increased due to their unwise choices. The chances are hardly comparable to that of Susie Homespun hanging up clothes in her backyard on a warm spring day in the burbs.

And on the other hand, innocent people suffer all the time too.

I believe that's the point I was trying to make -- all grief is different, and not measurable by the same scale. It is different for each person, each circumstance, each loss. You may project thoughts of how you "think' you might feel, but it's impossible to understand fully, predict completely, exactly what they will be until your in the midst of the grief.

OK, we'll have to leave it at that.

How do you think you would react to death if you were an atheist? (If you can even imagine being an atheist)


Is it possible for one sin or one choice to accomplish that? Yes. More likely, however, it is the build-up of many sins and/or choices which all lend themselves to he hardening and thickening of the Spritual "skin," so to speak, which will eventually result in causing the soul to be all but impenetrable (I say all but, because WE cannot judge that point -- which is why we are commanded to keep trying to reach the lost, only God knows if they are beyond redemption, not man). But redemption does NOT equal no responsibility for actions -- regardless of salvation, there are still mortal consequences for choices/decisions/sins, BUT they DO have immortal consequences for their salvation ... everlasting life eternal through Christ.

So it's quite possible that I, for eaxample, can no longer be saved?



ALL men fail, all men sin and fall short of the Glory of God; put not your faith in man, but in the Father Who is Perfect. Believe me, I could share some "horror" stories too regarding "men of faith" of come in contact with. That they were not good witnesses for the Father, in no way reflects the True Nature of Him -- only THEIR sin nature. (If it makes you feel any better, you might be surprised to find out that I, myself, was BANNED from a particular church -- because one of their "charter members" didn't like me and claimed she couldn't fellowship with the Lord with me in the room, :crazy: .)

That's fine, but I have no way of determining who the real Christians are.




[quote]I just think you're going about it from the wrong way. Pray as if seeking ... ask Him to show Himself to you in a way that would help make Him more real to you.

OK, but I would still be just talking to the ceiling.

After asking, EXPECT for Him to speak, pay attention in your day, to your circumstances, listen for that small, still voice.


Again, that's the same as asking me to jump up into the air and then expecting gravity to stop working so I stay floating.

It may not happen over night, it might happen in an instant, it may never happen, but if you think it WON'T happen you close the door on Him before you've had the chance to see Who's standing at the threshhold.

How can I make myself think that it will happen?




Mocking is beneath you, or anything or anyone as a general principle is beneath you?

Mocking.




[quote]There have actually been those individuals who started out trying to debunk Christ, and were instead touched by Him and drawn into the fold.

You wouldn't be praying for no reason, you would be praying with an expectation of something happening -- there are three possibilities, nothing happens, whereby you remain outside the realm of Christ, something happens but you don't understand it and so dismiss it, or He reaches you and you are changed. At least you will go into it knowing something will happen -- but don't just expect nothing to happen,

How can I expect something to happen?

or you eliminate the possibility of anything else happening. Open yourself up, and ask Him to show you something. And don't just stop at once -- keep trying, if you truly want to give it (and Him) a chance. If you simply want to dismiss this in hand, you will receive what you expect.

I can say a prayer many many times, but that's all I can physically do.

Yes.

So God knew that Adam would sin?

[HomeschoolrsRUs]

Would you say that all sinners are punished on earth, and not just in the afterlife?

I would say all sinners are punished in whatever manner, at whatever time, the Lord sees fit. There are punishments which occur on earth -- some are meted out by man, some are meted out by God, and some are meted out by God through action(s) by man. At the time of Christ's returning, ALL will be judged and treated and/or punished according to their actions/decisions in the "afterlife".

And on the other hand, innocent people suffer all the time too.