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**DONOTDELETE**
03-08-2003, 10:26 AM
Yes, I know the movie 'Snuff' was a fake. This is not about the faus snuff film market, it is about the real thing and the deniers who obstruct the attention that this industry needs so we can get the political will power to destroy it.

The pornagraphers today insist that snuff films, where the sexually exploited person climaxes the film by being tortured and killed, are an urban myth. Here is one poster I found who well represents these deniers of snuff films:

"And you still refuse to say what government agencies covered it up. What it was. How much you paid to see it. Because friend if you saw such a film, bought it or resold it, you are now an accessory to murder. If you read the above post, you will also learn how to claim a one million dollar price from Al Goldstein. If he pays you, I will apologize."

Notice how the denier challenges the person asserting that he has seen a snuff film to provide proof, while simultaneously threatening him if he does in fact do this.


The truth about snuff films is that they are in fact made in a vast udnerground of individual suppliers and buyers. They are not mass marketed, obviously, as their are stiff penalties to even viewing them. But the evidence suggests that the underground market is in fact there, but we can publicly see only the ripples on the surface, and occasionally a bust that the media ignore.


But it is well known that some sexual psychos fiolm their depreadations of their victims.

Here is an example in a post I found on the internet about the Teale murders:

[ QUOTE ]

FACT: During the week following Karla Homolka's trial, the police announced that they had a videotape of Karla with an unidentified female having sex. This announcement generated a number of rumours that she and her husband were making snuff & bestiality films. Police also exhumed the body of Karla's sister,
Tammy, whose death on Christmas Eve, 1990 had previously been labelled accidental.

FACT: Delay in the trial had to do with a small contingent of RCMP who travelled to Japan in order to procure Paul & Karla Teale's home snuff videos, which were evidently circulating in the Japanese sex underground. Supposedly Paul & Karla made some good money from this venture, which is supposed to account for how they could afford a nice home while he was an un-employed accountant and she was a was a veteranarian's assistant student. Evidently in these so-called snuff video(s?), the rooms where the crimes were committed is shown, which is why the police wanted to get a hold of these, so they could get a closer look, and thus search for evidence (DNA, etc.) in the areas that were shown.

FACT: The found videotape, child pornography, contains scenes of Karla engaging in underage lesbian & BDSM acts with Leslie Mahaffy. While rumours of snuff films are still tossed around, there was never any snuff films found. Yet it is well known that the two travel buy car to the United States often looking for girls and did bring their video cam.


[/ QUOTE ]

Another set of uninvestigated similar incidents as David Berkowitz has asserted that he was doing his "son of sam" slayings as part of an illicit filming of snuff films, as reported in the book "Ultimate Evil".

Ocasionally even police are busted with such material.

http://www.theadvocate.com/stories/090502/new_cleared001.shtml

[ QUOTE ]

An LSU Police officer charged with receiving child pornography has been cleared in the serial killer investigation by a DNA test, an FBI agent testified Wednesday.

* * * * * * *

During the bail hearing, Campbell testified that Jones had a collection of 157 images of child pornography on his work and home computers.

Jones also had 15 "snuff" films, Campbell said. Snuff films are graphic videos of people being killed, Campbell said.


[/ QUOTE ]

But even these specific cases do not silence the naysayers as the following shows.

[ QUOTE ]

Home videos by psychopaths. A commonly cited case involves Leonard Lake and Charles Ng, who in the mid-80s murdered at least 11 women in Lake's California cabin and made videos of several victims begging for mercy. I have not been able to confirm that anyone was actually killed on camera in this or similar cases, but wouldn't be surprised.

None of the above constitutes a snuff movie as the term is usually understood. It's not out of the realm of possibility that one will yet turn up. But the notion that there is some sort of snuff movie industry out there, complete with film crews, lab technicians, and, God help us, sacrificial actors; that these people film themselves committing capital crimes and sell the result to strangers; and that for nearly 30 years they've succeeded in concealing all traces of their handiwork, strikes me as absurd.


[/ QUOTE ]

He denies what no one is asserting. The snuff film industry is garage-back-alley stuff that sells very well without high quality production.

But as the major crime organizations start getting into it, we will see more busts like the ones below.

http://www.tranquileye.com/historyofporn/snuff.html
[ QUOTE ]

April 1999: German Duo Convicted of Making Snuff Film
Two men in Germany were recently sentenced to life imprisonment for committing murder while producing a snuff film. It's the first such conviction ever. The men filmed themselves sexually assaulting and torturing a 21-year-old woman for a snuff film they had hoped to sell in America for $16,000. Frankfurt-based prosecutor Job Tillman says there's a ready market for films depicting violence against women and children -- especially in America. Although one of the men is appealing the ruling, the other says he views jail as an opportunity to work on himself and his problems.

Michael Leidig writes 4/13/99 from Vienna for the Daily Telegraph, a London newspaper:

Ernst Dieter Korzen, 37, and Stefan Michael Mahn, 30, [videotaped] themselves sexually assaulting and torturing a 21-year-old woman in 1997. The victim died before the production was complete and the pair kidnapped a second woman to finish the video. But she escaped and alerted authorities, who arrested the men.

Wolfgang Rahmer, the chief prosecutor, told the court: "From my experience this represents a new depth in perversion. You see the victim begging for her life, pain being inflicted and massive sexual torture."

The court was told that the murdered woman, Jueleyha Akpinar, was working as a prostitute in Cologne when she met the two men in November. They offered her drugs and money to go with them to the remote bungalow in Kierspe-Roensal, near Hagen. A lack of direct evidence had previously led to widespread scepticism over the existence of a snuff movie industry, with many writing it off as an "urban myth". But Wolfgang Rahmer said he had no doubt that such an industry existed.

Both men were jailed for life in a secure psychiatric institution. Judge Hoerst Werner Herkenberg said Korzen should not expect his case to be re-examined for at least 18 years, and that Mahn would have to wait at least 15.

Cassandra Brown wrote 11/9/98 for the London newspaper Daily Telegraph:

September 27th, 2000
NAPLES, Italy, Sept 27 (Reuters) - Police said on Wednesday they had arrested eight Italians suspected of belonging to a child pornography ring that traded videos over the internet, including film of Russian children who were abused to death.

The material, which was ordered over the internet, cost between $400 and $6,000 for each video or disc depending on the type of film the customer wanted -- and the more horrific the more costly.

The most gruesome, police said, was code-named "Necros Pedo," in which children were raped and tortured until they died.


[/ QUOTE ]

I am convinced that snuff films are real because there has been a demonstrated market for it, and the colapse of Russian Communism has opened up many areas where such films can easily be made.

There is a site (www.insex.com) that I have found where women are genuinely tortured in appaling ways. Some of the girls look underage, but my bet is that they have paperwork showing that they are all 18 whether they are or are not. These young women are tortured by immersion in water, needles under fingernails, branding, electrical prods, painful bindings and even disfigurement.

If there are people willing to subscribe to this, why not for the whole monty, and just kill some young girl as the insex graphics suggest they do?

The existance of a network of enslaved women and children used for torture, rape and even killing when it suits the master would explain many disappearances over the last few years as well.

Snuff films are not an urban myth; they are fact.

wolfplus3
03-08-2003, 08:31 PM
I've heard of these sick bastards for many years. In my days overseas (Navy) I saw many, many things that would revolt and utterly sicken many over here. In the Phillipenes, women (girls really) were more world savy than the most experienced New York hooker by age 15. It was nothing to see 10 and 11 year old girls being led to the back rooms by groups of perverts. What made it so outrageous is that it would be the only way their families could eat, so they would fight you like cats if you tried to intervene. As to a "snuff" film, I've never seen one (and I ask, why would I) but I have heard of them being around. It's the same way for most illicit products, a friend of a friend of a friend knows someone who's fourth cousin has a contact with the uncle of....and so on. I don't doubt for a moment that such films exist, there is more evil than most people can fathom at work in the world today.
Just as there is no punishment horrible enough for the makers of these kind of perversions, there is also never an end to the underground demand for them. As long as there are deviants in the world, there will be abominations like this around. I find it curious that there is less information about the status of these films than one would expect. Could it be that the authorities are so repulsed by it that they downplay their existence? One of the few times where I truly don't wish to know the answer. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon130.gif

DoctorDoom
03-10-2003, 10:50 AM
Here are a few articles from reputable sources concerning this vile notion.

[ QUOTE ]
Also known as "white heat" films and "the real thing," the snuff film myth lives on like Bigfoot, despite the fact that no law enforcement agency in America has publicly admitted to ever locating one. Alan Sears, former executive director of the Attorney General's commission on pornography during 1985-86, agrees with the more than two dozen law enforcement agencies I interviewed. "Our experience was that we could not find any such thing as a commercially produced snuff film," says Sears. "Our commission was all-inclusive and exhaustive. If snuff films were available, we'd have found them."

This sentiment is echoed by Ken Lanning, a cult expert at the FBI training academy at Quantico, Virginia. "I've not found one single documented case of a snuff film anywhere in the world. I've been searching for 20 years, talked to hundreds of people. There's plenty of once-removed sightings, but I've never found a credible personality who personally saw one."

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Snuff Films (http://www.planetpapers.com/Assets/2136.php)

[ QUOTE ]
The myth of the snuff film, on the other hand, is a prime example of a cinematic urban legend. (The term "snuff" in reference to a specific genre of filmmaking where the actors are supposedly killed for the benefit of the viewer was coined by Ed Sanders in his book The Family-The Story of Charles Manson's Dune Buggy Attack Battalion [Panther Books, 1976]. The term was used to describe unsubstantiated claims that Manson and his followers may have been involved in perpetrating such crimes.) Twenty-four years later, many people who have heard of-but have never seen-the movie Snuff insists that it does contain actual footage of human death and mutilation. Even those individuals who do not recall the controversy have been affected by it, as belief in "snuff" films persist to this day. Many people attest to the existence of snuff films even though no one has ever actually seen one; authorities, it seems, also have nothing more concrete than vague rumors about the alleged production and distribution of snuff films as well. It is not at all surprising that most of the rumors concerning the existence of snuff films did not surface until after this film made headlines.

It is safe to say that anybody who has seen Snuff (which is obscure, but far from unavailable) knows how ludicrous these claims are, at least with respect to this specific production. Not only is the gore obviously fake, but the execution of the special effects is painfully inept. Snuff is nothing more than a grand marketing scheme that made a shameless little splatter film into one of the most profitable-and notorious-films ever conceived. The clever ad campaign was obviously tongue-in-cheek, but somehow millions of theater-goers were snagged by the notion "But what if it is real?" and it seems that their morbid curiosity got the best of them. Were the producers trying to exploit America's obsession with the macabre? Or did they simply view it as a clever dare to attract a few extra ticket sales? As it turns out, the latter seems closer to the truth. Whatever the motives, it worked, to the absolute joy of the promoters-and to the chagrin of those who would inevitably be confronted with the chore of debunking the hoax in the years to come.

[/ QUOTE ]
The Snuff Film - The Making of an Urban Legend (http://www.csicop.org/si/9905/snuff.html)

[ QUOTE ]
Claim: Films are routinely made for distribution in which participants are murdered on camera.

Status: False.

Origins: All the fretting about it aside, not so much as one snuff film has been found. Time and again, what is originally decried in the press as a film of a murder turns out, upon further investigation, to be a fake. Police on three continents routinely investigate films brought to them, and so far this has always been their verdict. No snuff films. Some clever fakes, yes. But no real product.

(Al Goldstein, publisher of Screw magazine, has a standing offer of $1 million for anyone who can come up with a commercially sold snuff film. That offer has been in place for years. No one has yet laid claim to it.)

It's not enough to fear there might be one snuff film out there; the belief runs strong that a large creation and distribution network is in operation, with children and young people routinely kidnapped then killed while the cameras roll to meet demand and the films of same circulated through this underground to connoisseurs of the genre.

[/ QUOTE ]
A Pinch of Snuff (http://www.snopes2.com/horrors/madmen/snuff.htm)

[ QUOTE ]
Dear Cecil:

Please settle a debate for us before somebody gets killed. Is there really such a thing as a snuff film? --snopes, Canoga Park, California

Cecil replies:

This is the weirdest urban legend of all: that there are underground movies in which people are literally murdered on camera for purposes of entertainment. The question is not whether there are people sick enough to traffic in such things (in a world containing Jeffrey Dahmer and Geraldo Rivera, there probably are), but whether they actually do. All we can say is that in the nearly 30 years stories of snuff movies have been circulating, no genuine example has ever come to light.

"The [snuff movie] rumor evidently originated in publicity circulated in 1970 by Alan Shakleton of Monarch Pictures, a low budget sado-porn movie distributor," Penn State folklorist Bill Ellis tells me. Shakleton "bought up a Latin-American Manson family ripoff titled Slaughter, had it subtitled, added a scene in which a woman was murdered (cut out of another film), then marketed the film under the title Snuff in New York City. Rumor has it that that he then incited women's groups to picket the film under the [erroneous] impression that the murder scene was an actual killing. Certainly the publicity Shakleton used implied that it was: `Made in South America Where Life Is Cheap.'"

Every few years since then snuff movies have been back in the news, either because some nut is accused of trying to make one (never successfully) or the tabloids report some sensational claim, e.g., that the main centers for the snuff movie industry are London, Amsterdam, and Bangkok. But pornography experts for the FBI and other law enforcement agencies say they have never seen a genuine snuff film.

[/ QUOTE ]
Is there such a thing as a snuff film? (http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a5_258.html)

Is this saying that these things don't exist? No. Is it saying that there are no people who would do such things? No. What it DOES say is that no credible source has ever seen one, let alone possessed one. There may be some videos of such horrors – camcorders seem to bring out the evil in many people – but there has never been a reliable report of one.

I'd say that until some concrete evidence surfaces, snuff films should be put in the same category as guys with missing kidneys and AIDS-infected needles in payphone coin return slots.

**DONOTDELETE**
03-11-2003, 02:53 PM
No evidence for snuff films?

Then what do you call this, DD?

http://www.tranquileye.com/historyofporn/snuff.html

April 1999: German Duo Convicted of Making Snuff Film Two men in Germany were recently sentenced to life imprisonment for committing murder while producing a snuff film. It's the first such conviction ever. The men filmed themselves sexually assaulting and torturing a 21-year-old woman for a snuff film they had hoped to sell in America for $16,000. Frankfurt-based prosecutor Job Tillman says there's a ready market for films depicting violence against women and children -- especially in America.

Michael Leidig writes 4/13/99 from Vienna for the Daily Telegraph, a London newspaper:

Ernst Dieter Korzen, 37, and Stefan Michael Mahn, 30, [videotaped] themselves sexually assaulting and torturing a 21-year-old woman in 1997. The victim died before the production was complete and the pair kidnapped a second woman to finish the video. But she escaped and alerted authorities, who arrested the men. Wolfgang Rahmer, the chief prosecutor, told the court: "From my experience this represents a new depth in perversion. You see the victim begging for her life, pain being inflicted and massive sexual torture."

The court was told that the murdered woman, Jueleyha Akpinar, was working as a prostitute in Cologne when she met the two men in November. They offered her drugs and money to go with them to the remote bungalow in Kierspe-Roensal, near Hagen. A lack of direct evidence had previously led to widespread scepticism over the existence of a snuff movie industry, with many writing it off as an "urban myth". But Wolfgang Rahmer said he had no doubt that such an industry existed.


Or this from the London Daily Telegraph:

September 27th, 2000
NAPLES, Italy, Sept 27 (Reuters) - Police said on Wednesday they had arrested eight Italians suspected of belonging to a child pornography ring that traded videos over the internet, including film of Russian children who were abused to death.

The material, which was ordered over the internet, cost between $400 and $6,000 for each video or disc depending on the type of film the customer wanted -- and the more horrific the more costly.

The most gruesome, police said, was code-named "Necros Pedo," in which children were raped and tortured until they died.

What is all this supposed to be, just modern fiction?

And what about the Teales, Berkowitz, Leonard Lake and Charles Ng?

How about that LSU police officer?

Is that all just myth too?

If it makes you feel better to not believe that there is a sex slavery underground, then believe what you want.

Reality is colder than preferential beliefs.

Meanwhile, the victims go unaccounted for, and suffering in isolation and loneliness.

DoctorDoom
03-11-2003, 05:10 PM
What do I call that? Stretching the definition of snuff films. The term means an actual murder on screen as an integral part of the "plot", not a death as a result of massive abuse.

Until someone shows me hard evidence for them obtained by LE officials, it remains pure speculation. "My brother knows a guy whose uncle's barber saw one" is not evidence. I know people that swear they've seen flying saucers, but until one lands in my back yard, I remain skeptical.

If these things are so damned hard to find that no LE agency has ever seen one, let alone obtained one (and the idea that they are suppressing it is ludicrous), why the concern over them? They're not going to show up in the local Blockbuster.

If it's being used as proof of man's inhumanity and evil, BFD. One can cite more than ample evidence for that without inventing nefarious plots. How about Daniel Pearl? How about the Nazi "doctors" like Mengele (http://auschwitz.dk/Mengele.htm) whose experiments would cause Satan to puke? History is replete with horrors that pale the notion of snuff films into insignificance.

Until concrete evidence surfaces, the flap over snuff films remains much ado about nothing.

**DONOTDELETE**
03-11-2003, 07:41 PM
Much ado about nothing?

Raping and torturing children till they die is nothing?

Kidnapping and killing women off the street is nothing?

So, in your terms, if it doesnt have an official budget and union member camera crews then it isnt a *real* snuff film?

LOL!

A snuff film, by most peoples definition that I know, is any sexually oriented movie that has featured the actual death of one of its participants, and that is it! It doesnt have to be a big feature film with a formal distribution network, etc. I can be a grainy little 5 minute 8 mm film that just shows a woman being raped then having her throat cut.

And this see no evil attitude from you, DD, is really surprising to me. I gave your references to major media outlets where people ahve been arrested for making or for posessing, including one cop, snuff films and then you turn around and insist that you have seen no reference to any obtained by a LE official? Duh? When they arrested the guys in Germany and Italy, what do you think they had in their hands? Disney feature films?

Your determined disbelief matches RyteWingers in regard to the existance of God.

You dont want to buy it, so you dont.

It is that simple really.