Can democracy work in the MidEast? Good article!

[Etaoin]

REVIEW & OUTLOOK
Democracy Angst
What's the alternative to promoting freedom in the Middle East?
Monday, February 27, 2006 12:01 a.m. EST
In the matter of Middle East elections, the results of which we don't always like: Anyone out there have a better idea?
We ask amid some recent wringing of hands following elections for the Palestinian legislature, in which the terrorist group Hamas won an outright majority; elections in Iraq, where voters cast their ballots along sectarian lines, and a strong showing by the fundamentalist Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt's parliamentary elections late last year.
"For some, the promotion of democracy promises an easy resolution to the many difficult problems we face," says Illinois Congressman Henry Hyde. "But I believe that great caution is warranted here." And from the man who once gave us the "end of history," we now have the demise of neoconservatism: "Promoting democracy and modernization in the Middle East," writes Francis Fukuyama in a new book, "is not a solution to the problem of jihadist terrorism; in all likelihood it will make the short-term problem worse."
The brilliant insight here is that democratic processes don't always lead to liberal outcomes. Actually, that's not an insight: The world has had fair warning on this score at least since Adolf Hitler came to power democratically in 1933. We can be thankful, however, that the experience of Nazism did not deter successive generations of Germans from persevering with the democratic experiment.
Still, the underlying argument deserves thoughtful consideration, and it goes something like this: Contrary to the rhetoric of the Bush Administration, the taste for freedom--and the ability to exercise it responsibly--is far from universal. Culture is decisive. Liberal democracies are the product of long-term trends such as the collapse of communal loyalties, urbanization, the separation of church and state and the political empowerment of the bourgeoisie. Absent these things, say the critics, democratic and liberal institutions are built on foundations of sand and are destined to collapse.

THE REST (http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110008019)

[Rink]

This whole article misses the point of the problem with 'democracies' in the Middle east.

The reason WHY democracies even florished at all inthe West was because religion was NOT also a political form of govt whereas Islam is not Only a religion But also a form of govt to be used to run the state of affairs in peoples lives.

Islam and democracy cannot co-exist, this is the problem we are facing today in this modern age, we are trying to foment a political form of govt that is actively competing not only with a religion but also with another political form of govt.

That is why many in the Middle east is saying the West is warring against Islam because islam is not just a religion alone but a form of govt.

And to try and replace it with a 'democracy' will ALWAYS fail unless one literally takes Islam and reconstruct it from the bottom up and I dont think that will happen anytime soon willingly by those adherents of islam.

That is why 'democracy' is such a failure in the Middle east.

This is a whole new, different animal that the West has never had to deal with before and the West isnt 'getting it' yet still.

One more thing there is big differences between the definitions of 'Democracy' and that of a 'Democratic Republic'

[DesertFox]

Nonradical forms of Islam are compatible with democracy. Democracy requires reasonable people to work. It is not compatible with wild men bent on cutting off heads and blowing themselves to kingdom come.

[Rink]

DF there IS no such thing as 'radical' or 'non-radical', there is ONLY Islam, and Islam is BOTH a religion AND a political system.

And Islam is completely INCOMPATIBLE with that of 'democracy'

[DesertFox]

You're just wrong again, Rink. I live two doors from a nonradical Muslim.

Democracy's first and most important requirement is reasonable people.

[Rink]

By Introducing 'Democracy' into the Middle East the West HAS declared war on Islam as Islam is completely incompatible with that of any other poltical system as Islam is a religion and poltical system that tolerates NO competition and will have no other cepts itself as the de-facto rule of the land, as the institution of Sharia Law is their laws.

There is no other law except Sharia Law.

Islam IS a political system as well as a religion

You are deluding yourself into thinking there are 'elements in Islam, there are none, its only a ploy to deceive us into complacency and make us accept the 'kinder, gentler form of Islam before it becomes violent.

Only reason why Islam is nice aka the non-radical element is because those adherents of Islam are NOT in the majority and do not have the sufficient numbers necessary to show their true face.

When you see Islam become violent it is because those that adhere to the tenents of Islam have become true to its teachings, any other are apostates and they are not tolerated by any degree.

[Rink]

I dont care if you live next door to a non-radical muslim, the moment they go home to the country of their origins they revert to their old ways.

You are deceiving yourself DF.

[Rink]

Islam inculcates UNREASONABLE people DF.

the ONLY reason why those are not violent as I have stated above is because they are not enough in numbers.

Make no mistake Islam sets itself out to deceive you at first, then the moment they have enough people within their midst thats when things hit the fan as the true tenents of Islam calls for its followers to kill the non-muslim if they refuse to convert.

Ya may wanna take a lesson in Islamic History and the teachings of Muhammad k.

Those peaceful nonradical people you live next door MAY be peaceful but they are far from being true adherents of Islam proper.

Just as Catholicicm has its CINO's I am very certain Islam has its fair share of IINO (Islamic In Name Only)

[DesertFox]

Rink, my primary life's work -- the Army -- dealt intimately with life and death. When that's the case, you quickly get over deceiving yourself and learn to see what's there. No more and no less.

I imagine that you, as usual, don't know what the hell you're talking about. I don't think you've ever been to "the country of their origins" or read an authoritative account by someone who has that touches on this subject. You're just making stuff up and shrilly insisting that others accept your judgment.

Well, I don't. I know the requirements for democracy to work, and I know that Muslims live right here in America under democracy with no problem whatsoever. They can do the same in Iraq if they get over being intimidated by the crazies and kill the bastards.

That's not to say they will do the same in Iraq, but that they can do the same in Iraq.

[Rink]

O I know what I'm talking about, more than you realize DF

It is YOU who are deluding yourself

One of my female relatives married an Iranian, and he managed to get her to go back with him to his stinking country and she's never seen again.

Islam is a lie and it presents itself to the West WITH lies

Yah One God, three religions MY ASS

Islam and democracy is Incompatible, my opinion stands

[Rink]

Oya one more thing for good measure on Muslims, my sister once dated a nice 'Americanized' Muslim, she brought him home just once, and he met my dad, my dad had the habit of rubbing his fingers together, and this 'boyfriend' thought he was 'praying' yes he thought my dad was a praying Muslim.

And that from a nice 'Americanized' Muslim

[ThomasMore]

There are several interpretations of the Koran. One of those interpretations is virulent. It is used in the Islamic world to support radical hostility to non-Muslims and even those Muslims which subscribe to different interpretations of the Koran. In the West, it is cited to argue that the Koran is implacably hostile to the West, and can only give rise to radicalism.

Other interpretations are, in varying degrees, more charitable and less hostile. The extremists have declared war not only on Jews and Christians, but also on their coreligionists. There are many millions of Muslims which do not subscribe to the extremists' message or interpretation of their faith. As for these Muslims and their interpretation of the Koran, it is at least reasonable to refer to their faith as one of peace. Of course, that would be absurd when applied to the most violent, hostile variant of Islam.

I currently know and have worked with several Muslims (airline pilots for a US carrier), who have nothing in common with the Muslims of your example, Rink. One was at one time the head of the airline's pilots' union, well liked and well trusted by his colleagues. He not only passed the government's and company's security protocols, he became the airline's security trainer: responsible for training pilots and flight attendants in Transportation Security Administration and company security procedures and protocols. He is married to a Christian woman, and long ago chose to make his permanent home in the US.

I have met Muslims of the extreme or near-extreme type here in the United States. On the other hand, I know Muslims for whom I have great respect. I have also visited the Mideast (Turkey, Egypt and Iran), and seen both varieties there, too. I have met Muslims in Europe who I wouldn't trust for anything...some of those were EXACTLY of the stripe you describe, and I am well aware of stories like those in your first example, Rink.

There are many Muslims who fit your description. But there are also many other devout Muslims who read the Koran differently, and live in harmony with Christians, Jews and others.

Personally, I don't buy into the Koran. Nor do I buy into the Book of Mormon or believe in Buddha or Baha'ullah. But describing all Muslims as animals or untrustworthy is unfair to those I have worked with and SOME others I have met both here, and in the Mideast.

[Un Con Troll Able]

"Non-radical" forms of Islam?

The non-radical adherents are the sheep. They don't have the guts to fight for true democracy and there will always be enough radical adherents to keep them from getting power peacefully.

[Wolfcounsel]

If I have any Moslem living next door to me, radical or non-radical, I will have pig barbecue and beer at least once a week. Moslems are cult people and nothing more than that, peaceful or psychos. Anybody wishes to argue or discuss that, it's your opinion, same as it's mine.:evilgrin:

[Native American]

By Introducing 'Democracy' into the Middle East the West HAS declared war on Islam as Islam is completely incompatible with that of any other poltical system as Islam is a religion and poltical system that tolerates NO competition and will have no other cepts itself as the de-facto rule of the land, as the institution of Sharia Law is their laws.

But what about DesertFox's Muslim neighbor in that case, Rink? Are you saying neither DesertFox nor his next door neighbor are living in a democracy??

Or are you suggesting that it's just a matter of time before DesertFox's Muslim neighbor turns on DesertFox, and slaughters him and his family?

[Warlady]

Rink, there are about 2 billion Muslims in the world. If they were all as you describe they could take over the world. Have you asked yourself why there were no Muslim protestors here in the US over that stupid cartoon in Denmark? Apparently Muslims and Democracy can co-exist. The Wahabe's are the only radicals that actually read into the Qu'ran to be violent. That's my take anyway. I agree with ThomasMore and Fox. I wish there was no such thing as Islam but that's not reality. But they don't all support terrorism. The radicals are actually a very small minority but they make such a big bang they make is seem like they are large in number.

As for the article...did anyone count how many times the author used the word "liberal"?

[Wolfcounsel]

"Rink, there are about 2 billion Muslims in the world. If they were all as you describe they could take over the world." --Warlady

There is no strength in big numbers, except in superior, overwhelming firepower.

The Wolf does not concern himself with the increasing number of sheep.

[Wyatt_Junker]

Its like the old 80/20 rule.

20 percent of the people do 80 percent of the work. Now, apply that to the islamofascism we see holding entire states hostage such as Saudi Arabia, Syria, Lebanon, Iran.

The moderates are like fair weather fans. They are waiting to see which side will win; democracy or theocracy. Then, whoever wins, they will line up behind.

I actually despise them.

I despise them more than I do the 20 percent radical contingent. At least the ones who preach against the Great Satan have an ounce of integrity even if its based on a total lie. The moderates? Well, they are just like the Germans who allowed, who watched, as Hitler rose to power, even if he only had a minority position. They are far worse. They are the silent middle, the undecided voter who globs on to anything that comes along even if it is evil.

The only way a moderate can be coaxed over to the other side is if the American will is good, stable and long term. But, even in Iraq, as incredible a job as our military has done proving its awesome ability, the political base here at home and our media do everything in their power to undermine their work. You are only as good militarily as your political capital at home. And that's the problem. The American public has a short attention span. They don't like 'long' things. They don't like anything protracted that translates into lifestyle, that demands discipline or hard work. At least not this generation. This generation accepts only what is handed to them. And the only wars they will fight are ones moderated by a media as a counterpoint. Its disgusting.

The 80 percent of the Iraqis are watching us over here and are nervous about that very vacillation. One need to go no farther than watch our last very open and public Presidential debate to know that things here in America(regarding our foreign policy) could turn on a dime over there. If I wasn't a terrorist A hole, I would probably be a softie moderate too if only to save my skin when America went south politically again. It happened after Desert Storm, I would think as an Iraqi, it would happen again. Our ability to succeed is dependent upon our collective will domestically. Foreign policy always gains its momentum, its mandate, from domestic will.

But our will is not good. It might be 60% good. That's not enough. Not with a media that undermines it every waking hour. And with an internal enemy like that at home, we cannot expect to win at all. It started with Vietnam, this trend. It has continued to this day. There are too many undecideds here(the 80 percent) that are just like the 80 percent over there in Iraq. Neither is fooling anyone. There are 20% on both sides who really really REALLY believe in their convictions no matter what. But America as a 'democracy' needs the 80% machine behind it in order to act on those convictions. Iraq doesn't. In fact, in theocracies in general, its just the opposite. There is no consensus. In theocracies, the 20 percent drives the machine. The 80 percent have no real say. Its rule by force. And so, they wait, looking on from the sidelines.

Whoever wins, they will play by their rules. They would rather survive in desperation than fight openly.

The question is; is the American will good? I know mine is. I know the FCers are. I know the folks at LGFers are. I know that perhaps, maybe, 40% of the voters are. But what about the couch potatoes? The word here at home is not getting out. It is stilted by a very clear anti-American agenda. And that is our problem. We are trying to correct that information back-up, but the Admin. is not direct enough and not bold enough. It lacks the ability to inspire those nodding off with their remote in their hand. If we lose the long term stability in the region, it is because of our uninvolvment here at home. The majority of the voting public is disengaged or willingly chooses to believe the MSM agitprop.

There is no way that America could lose, at anything, at any war. So, we lose another way; through disinformation here at home which breeds skulking ennui and uncertainty, a public that doesn't understand how manifesting your destiny works(a product of proactive faith). Calling things into being that you don't see as if they already existed. Our problem is that we have, quite literally, an American public that is faithless. We have lost our way. We are being cored out, hollowed from our spiritual past.

[Lazarus]

...And that's the problem. The American public has a short attention span. They don't like 'long' things. They don't like anything protracted that translates into lifestyle, that demands discipline or hard work. At least not this generation. This generation accepts only what is handed to them. And the only wars they will fight are ones moderated by a media as a counterpoint. Its disgusting...Exactly and precisely on target as usual, Brother...

When Bush told us that this was going to be a long hard fight, I said to myself exactly what Wyatt said above... This nation does not have the moral fortitude, self discipline, and commitment to principle to sustain such an effort...

I have little hope for a free and stable nation in the Middle East (outside of Israel) because the people in general have a slave mentality... And thus they are easy and WILLING targets for dictatorships...

In short, these people are enslaved in their souls, and are not ready to be free... Freedom requires courage, responsibility, and respect for the sanctity of life and liberty - and none of these traits are to be found in Islam...

These people will never find true freedom until they find Christ...

[Native American]

Originally Posted by Wyatt_Junker
...And that's the problem. The American public has a short attention span. They don't like 'long' things. They don't like anything protracted that translates into lifestyle, that demands discipline or hard work. At least not this generation. This generation accepts only what is handed to them. And the only wars they will fight are ones moderated by a media as a counterpoint. Its disgusting...


Quite true, as the latest assertion concerning the Coast Guard security report by a supposed "news reporter" in the White House press corps demonstrates. He handed out a non-story, but a whole busload of Bush Bashers jumped on it immediately.

But the good thing about the short attention span of the low-IQ voter drones is that the Dimmies can huff and puff about the UAE port sale all they want (President Bush is even giving them an extra 45 days to huff and puff, knowing how ineffective they will be!) and what will happen is that, just like all the other meaningless "crises" that the Dimmies huff and puff about, the low-IQ voter drones will eventually tire of the "news" story and the UAE port sale will become a non-issue to them.

But I'll grant you that President Bush's latest (supposed) approval rating means that his chances for winning the 2006 and 2008 presidential races are somewhat slimmer than they were previously.

[Etaoin]

Very Well Said Wyatt. And it is exactly why Democracies degenerate into mobocracies which in turn are taken over by a totalitarian form of government.

[Kathy29]

Rink, you are absolutely right. Islam is a religion, a political form of government and also the legal system. There is no democracy that is compatible with Islam. Desert Fox's neighbor could very well be a fully westernized muslim, which make him a bad muslim. Bad muslims are as much of a target as infidels.

Before the start of the war in Iraq, Prince Bandar of Saudi Arabia gave an interview in which he warned of trying to install a democracy is a muslim country. Give the people the vote, he said, and you will have people voting to behead women in the street for showing an ankle.

As westernized as Saudi Arabia is, they still have religious police, they still behead criminals, trials are under sharia, honor killings are legal. Why? Because this is what the people want. They want it because they are good muslims.

[Naturalized-Texan]

Rink: The IslamoFascists represent only a tiny minority of Muslims just as fascists in other nations represent only a tiny minority. The vast majority of Muslims are peace-loving and have nothing to do with the IslamoFascists.

[Wyatt_Junker]

Its interesting watching the left here at home. They always want to paint our hegemonistic foreign policy as imperialistic as if that were a bad thing. I chalk it up to a mixture of hypertrophied political correctness and them being pathetically untraveled.

Its funny because for a demographic that really yearns to be known as 'cosmopolitan' and 'exotic', the Left are the least in both categories yet insist otherwise. For if they really were cosmopolitan, they would recognize that the majority of this little blue marble was in political, spiritual and economic dire straits. They would WANT America to help the rest of the world. As far as exotic, lefties think that if they go to a sushi bar occasionally that that somehow puts them into an elite category of lofty and titillating multicultural bliss, and that they now need to teach all of us midwesterners what its like 'over there'. 'Exotic' to a liberal simply means franchised thought. One quick trip to a Starbucks and a lefty swoons with uncloyed romantic thoughts of Gay Paree. And now they are an authority.

And all this aggressive ignorance is in opposition to what the world needs. The world needs America, desperately. This is not patriotism. This is simply a fact. We comprise 5% of the world's total population and yet we run 90% of its economy. Talk about the 80/20 rule! Try the 90/5.

If America fails, the entire world fails. Everyone relevant, or trying to be, (China) is attempting to be like us. Everyone fighting against our proven system (Russia's current retro-devolution and France's 25 hour work weeks) will be stuck in the past, struggling with basic plumbing and electricity.

What the lefties here at home don't understand is that there is no such thing as deferring to international thought. It doesn't exist. The grass is not greener over 'there' wherever there is. In fact, there is no grass. There are only weeds.

And so, the lefties, in their total shallow state of insular righteousness, while they rail against their own country, at the same time, they fail to understand that it is the very antidote to what they are preaching for.

Its like a growling dog chasing its tail, doing endless 360's. They are fighting against the very answer for which they yearn. Lefties think that we need international consensus not knowing that WE ARE the consensus. There is no such thing as international consensus. We. Are. It. And like a crazed sybil, they are fighting against themselves.

For some reason they don't want to accept this or, perhaps a better assertion, is that they would feel guilty for even admitting it because it would go against their Sesame Street idea about 'fair play' and 'sharing' and 3rd grade manners. They would put a nightshade over the truth instead because it goes against their multicultural ethic which really is like a religion more than anything else. And so, instead, they wish for American defeat. Its a kind of upside down pyramid world view where they can elevate regimes like Djibouti, Thailand, the Phillipines, the Sudan... all the little people because it makes them feel proud and caring like that ride in Disneyland Its A Small World After All. From the moment they rode that ride, that cliche has stuck ever since. All the people of the world holding hands singing. Its a calm assurance to them. Its their religious grid now, their secretly chirping nirvana that guides all their current decisions. They buy 'imported' beer because its cool and shit and they can tell their friends they drank Romanian port or some unknown small German brand or tasted Irish bitters. To them, its escapism, fantasy, romanticism. It feels superior to in one stroke demean the United States and at the same time taste 'culture' over there. They do not like this country anymore. They want to be set back about 150 years, wind the clock back to the small town market square where street vendors screeched at you as they held up their prized yam.

This is the liberal dream. Its a reversion. Its an economy in high heels prostituting itself as it teeters around. They want to go back to the 1800's, roughly. They like the 'character' of cobblestone streets. This is the yuppie. The stinking capuccino sipping yuppie, which in turn are the single most descriptive and loyal demographic of the American Left today.

[Etaoin]

Rink, there are about 2 billion Muslims in the world. If they were all as you describe they could take over the world. Have you asked yourself why there were no Muslim protestors here in the US over that stupid cartoon in Denmark? Apparently Muslims and Democracy can co-exist.

Somalia and actually, throughout Africa a virulent Islam is murdering those who are not Muslim.

Look at Europe! Fortunately, they have been alerted to how serious the challenge is...the question is, how effective will they be in containing the threat!

For whatever reason the moslem community emigrated into the Western Culture, they have NOT assimilated! Undoubtedly, there are those who have assimilated, but the evidence suggests that they are relatively few and far between. Last year I reported on this board that while I was in Phoenix, a city with over 50,000 Muslims that a Doctor tried to put on a mass demonstration denouncing terrorism. 250 Muslims showed up!!!

IMHO the sheep constitute a dormant 5th column within Western Culture. Throughout the world, there is no such thing as a tolerant muslim community once they have political dominance. Once in power, there is no freedom permitted!

Iraq is (and was) the most secular of all the Moslem nations, and that is the main reason there is a possibility of succss there!

[Rink]

Originally Posted by Warlady
Rink, there are about 2 billion Muslims in the world. If they were all as you describe they could take over the world. Have you asked yourself why there were no Muslim protestors here in the US over that stupid cartoon in Denmark? Apparently Muslims and Democracy can co-exist.


Only reason why they havent YET taken over the world is because the vast majority are NOT true adherents of Islam, as those who TRULY listen to and follow Muhammad's calling are the violent ones, the others are (IINO - Islamic In Name Only)


Period.

Just as Etaoin stated, in a city of 50,000 only 250 came out of the woodworks to support an anti-terrisom rally.

If that doesnt tell you anything as to WHY Democracies Will fail in the Middle East then I dunno what will.

Islam and democracy is incompatible, Islam aims to be Dominant above all other religions AND political systems just as everywhere they go they strive to institute Sharia Law over everyone else just as well.

Because Islam calls them to do so and it is their duty to put EVERYONE under that law, political system and religion.

Those that dont wont live long once they dio so.

[Kathy29]

The reason why muslims were rioting in Europe and not here is because as long as muslims are a small fraction of the total population they impact the culture not at all. Once they become a significant percentage, normally this is 10% and above, the first thing they do is destablize the host nation. They have done it over and over and are doing it right now.

Muslims make up less than 3% of the total population of the US.

[Lazarus]

...As far as exotic, lefties think that if they go to a sushi bar occasionally that that somehow puts them into an elite category of lofty and titillating multicultural bliss, and that they now need to teach all of us midwesterners what its like 'over there'. 'Exotic' to a liberal simply means franchised thought. One quick trip to a Starbucks and a lefty swoons with uncloyed romantic thoughts of Gay Paree. And now they are an authority...Excellent, Bro!

Somalia and actually, throughout Africa a virulent Islam is murdering those who are not Muslim.Correct again... And this happens because they are in numbers there that make them bold...

The reason why muslims were rioting in Europe and not here is because as long as muslims are a small fraction of the total population they impact the culture not at all. Once they become a significant percentage, normally this is 10% and above, the first thing they do is destablize the host nation. They have done it over and over and are doing it right now.Exactly... Yes all the "peaceful muslims" are here in the US... And when they get their number up high enough, those peaceful muslims will suddenly go rabid, and will demand that we all convert or die...

The more tolerant we are of this cult of death, the more we invite a blood bath within our borders... There is no difference between the muslims in Africa and the muslims here with the exception of numbers... They are cowards and liars and when they feel strong enough, they will attack here too...

[aaron11]

The biggest reason Democracy hasn't flourished and may ultimately fail in the ME is because it was handed to them and like a rich boys inheritance they won't appreciate it until it's gone...

[aaron11]

As far as all Muslims being radical, that's horse-puckey. Like any other peoples their mass population are trend followers, band wagoners. If they Radicals win they will be emboldened and become more radical en-mass, on the other hand, if the radicals are eradicated and the moderates win, the Muslims may survive through the next century...

[DesertFox]

Turkey is a Muslim country. Turkey is also a democracy. It has been since Kemal Ataturk in the Twenties. Somebody who insists that Islam and democracy cannot coexist explain that, please.

[Rink]

Turkey is a Muslim country. Turkey is also a democracy. It has been since Kemal Ataturk in the Twenties. Somebody who insists that Islam and democracy cannot coexist explain that, please.

The only reason why Turley is the way it is today is because Kemal Ataturk beat it into them quite harshly, that though is changing today, true Islam is starting to rear its ugly head up there politically.

As for socially ANYWHERE Islam is dominant the people are ruled by the theocracy of Islam whether or not the secular rulers follow it.