Making dirt in the desert?

[absinthe]

Yea..so the title pretty much summs it up...how do I go about making dirt in the desert?

There's SOME quantity of dirt here but its pretty much useless---rained for weeks during this past cooler season and not a thing grew from it.

I tried my hand at composting by putting the richer of the dirt from several locations as well as the detrius from beneath some trees into a bottle and tried starting a rotting process with some vegitable/food matter.

not working.

the only other real dirt out here grows this crappy grass that looks really green when watered but wont grow anything else.

also---peat: I'm gonna try growing some venus fly traps from seed and what im looking-up tells me that peat is the only way to go for them. Obviously I can't make or improvise that sort of thing out here --any recommendations of mail order brands for smaller quantities?

thanks guys!

[sunsettommy]

Yea..so the title pretty much summs it up...how do I go about making dirt in the desert?

There's SOME quantity of dirt here but its pretty much useless---rained for weeks during this past cooler season and not a thing grew from it.

I think you meant making the Soil more fertile.This way it can support vegetative growth.

Making dirt is not practical since you said there is some quanity of dirt available already.It is the mineralization through the chemicalizing and weathering the parent or secondary rocks that creates "dirt".

It is the biological and chemical activity of the soil that largely determines what will grow in it.

I tried my hand at composting by putting the richer of the dirt from several locations as well as the detrius from beneath some trees into a bottle and tried starting a rotting process with some vegitable/food matter.

not working.

It could be that using a bottle limited the needed air intake for decomposition.

Composting works best when abundant air and some water along with warmth are available.

The need to keep track of the amount of carbon materials that is added to the compost pile,is important since excessive amounts of it slows down the decomposition process.

The Carbon to Nitrogen ratio is a guide to determine what material to add to the mix to decompose.

Wood chips is high in Carbon/low in Nitrogen and that is why it is slow to decompose.

Grass clippings is low in Carbon/high in Nitrogen and that is why it decomposes fast.

It is also possible that the plant matter you gathered from around the trees contains some chemical inhibitants.

the only other real dirt out here grows this crappy grass that looks really green when watered but wont grow anything else.

also---peat: I'm gonna try growing some venus fly traps from seed and what im looking-up tells me that peat is the only way to go for them. Obviously I can't make or improvise that sort of thing out here --any recommendations of mail order brands for smaller quantities?

Just chose a small bag of peat and buy it.

thanks guys!

It would help if you tell us if it is sand or clay soil.

If there is lack of vegetative growth that is normal.Then it is all up to you make it work in a small plot.

[Kathy29]

I'm not much of a botanist, but for dirt, you need worms. Worms eat rotting organic material and excrete - dirt! Worm castings are the richest kind of dirt.

Otherwise, start gardening with desert plants.

[sunsettommy]

I'm not much of a botanist, but for dirt, you need worms. Worms eat rotting organic material and excrete - dirt! Worm castings are the richest kind of dirt.

The lack of worms and microbes are due to poor soil conditions.The soil I suspect he is talking about.

The worms would not do well for some time as the soil needs to build up a significant population of microbes and other tiny critters.This means organic matter and fertilizing.

Then worms will finally show up.

Otherwise, start gardening with desert plants.

The easy way to go in poor dry soil.

[absinthe]

sunsettommy: youve given some good ideas for me to lookup. Its a sandy soil out here. I've since looked up online advise about composting and when I get back to camp I'm gonna try some larger plastic containers...after all, if I'm going to make any--might as well go for a lot and get a bunch of plants.

I really havent looked online yet for peat yet, but you make it sound like a no-brainer so i guess I could orrder some now and have it on the way.

kathy29: Ya know, I'd completely forgotten about worms. I've not seen any in the buff but there this foodstore down the road that caters to pakistani contractors and they have these dried earthworms. I'll ask if they can comeup with a more flexible version..:smirky: but I still neet decent soil of some sort first.

[The_Sonarman]

Absinthe.

One sort of early measure you could take is to grow things such as tomatoes in a small raised bed, which you fill almost completely with purchased "topsoil" (25 and 50 pound bags). This can be found in most garden shops, as well as nurseries. It's expensive, but it's "real dirt".

The second idea I had has already been mentioned (ie. grow things directly in large pots). It isn't optimum, but many things including some tomatoes do OK in pots.

As to turning "sand" into a garden, I'm thinking you could pay for a couple dump trucks to bring in several loads of soil. Once again, expensive, but that of course is a decision for you. You'd have an oasis of growing medium.

[maxparrish]

Yea..so the title pretty much summs it up...how do I go about making dirt in the desert?

There's SOME quantity of dirt here but its pretty much useless---rained for weeks during this past cooler season and not a thing grew from it.

My thoughts:

First, most desert is generally very alkaline (from the lack of rain) - I have read this is a big problem in areas of Nevada. I don't know how you might have your "soil" tested (a mail order PH kit probably) but if it the soil is too alkaline (7.5 or greater) then that might be a factor. There are a couple of ways to lower the PH in soil:

a) build a raised bed and water it intensively for several hours...OR
b) amend the sandy soil with sulfer or gypsum. Your goal is to lower the PH to 6.5.

Second, build up the sandy soil with amendments. Dairy manure is some of the best, or horse manure. Horse manure (from the farm) must be either broken up (its in pellets) or composted before adding it to your soil.

An alternative is cottenseed meal (used as feed) - it has a PH of 6.5, and a tiny amount of seaweed meal (teaspoon or less for trace elements), and compost ( used as an activator).

From my reading I would suggest that you use a raised bed (its recommended for sandy soils, flat terrain, etc.). From the book "Super Nutrition Gardening":

1) Build a raised bed. Ideal is 18" deep (sandy soil), 14" is okay, and even 6" will give some results. Into the bed put a mix of 3pts sandy soil to 1pt vermiculitle (or perlite, or bark). You might spread the material out on a concrete pad, mix and rake, then wheel barrow it to your raised bed.

2) To the raised bed ADD PER 100 Cubic Feet: Cottonseed meal (4 gallons), the 'activator' compost from either dairy or horse manure (4 gallons), Seaweed Meal (Quarter cup - no more than this). Fork this material over into the bed's soil (going 10" deep). Water it.

According to the book you will have super soil - and be able to raise a whole lot of vegies, etc.

Hope this helps...

Mark

PS Yes, get some mail order worms (the kind that eats plant material, not 'red worms' which digest meat).

PPS: Some sources of materials to compost: coffee grounds, KP materials such as potato skins, vegie matter, NO MEAT), etc.

[Faithful_Servant]

Compost, baby. I live in the high desert and our native soil is basically sand with rocks (there are some old flood plain areas that have some outstanding soil, but mostly sand and rocks). You've go tto get organic material in that stuff. Compost is the best way to do it. Talk to your local coffee shops about taking their used grounds off their hands. Find a llama farmer and offer to take the llama manure off thier hands. Horse and diary are pretty good, but contain a lot of seeds. Llama, alpacas, rabbits, etc. do a much better job of digesting the stuff they eat and leave much cleaner droppings. If it's a lawn you're after, find a chicken farmer. There's absolutely NOTHING better for a lawn nice smelly green chicken manure.
If you want to take a longer term approach, plant clover for a couple years and till it into the ground when it gets about 6" tall. You should be able to do this 3-4 times a year. It will build the nitrogen level in your soil and add that much needed organics.

[maxparrish]

Compost, baby. I live in the high desert and our native soil is basically sand with rocks (there are some old flood plain areas that have some outstanding soil, but mostly sand and rocks). You've go tto get organic material in that stuff. Compost is the best way to do it. Talk to your local coffee shops about taking their used grounds off their hands. ...

Hmmm, I thought about moving to Bend, until it got pricy. What can you grow in that climate - cold winters and cold nights I assume?

[Faithful_Servant]

Hmmm, I thought about moving to Bend, until it got pricy. What can you grow in that climate - cold winters and cold nights I assume?Having a greenhouse is the key to successful gardening around here. Our growing season runs from late April to about now. Half of my zucchinis are already frost bit. Once things warm up, it's great. Cool weather crops are a waste of time IMO, so you've got to go with the heat lovers. Beans do really well, as do tomatoes and most gourd type veggies. Lettuce can do well, but you've got to watch out for it "bolting" and going to seed (the best thing to do is pick baby lettuce and go for two or three plantings).

BTW - Bend's cheap compared to Sisters, just 20 miles away and you're lucky to get a shack for less than $250K. If you want a nice house (like one with insulation), expect to pay at least $350K.

[Wolfcounsel]

Dig a hole according to your dimensions. Line the bottom with old pieces of iron, crumbled drywall, and barbershop clippings. Place a layer of disposed food, preferably with lots of fruits and vegetables. Place your compost on top of this, mixed with the sand there. Water it until the top is saturated. Plant your seeds according to your schedule. Good luck.

[The_Sonarman]

Compost is the best way to do it. Talk to your local coffee shops about taking their used grounds off their hands. Find a llama farmer and offer to take the llama manure off thier hands. Horse and diary are pretty good, but contain a lot of seeds. Llama, alpacas, rabbits, etc. do a much better job of digesting the stuff they eat and leave much cleaner droppings.

There's a fairly easy way to sterilize those seeds. You run the soiled straw and manure through the compost pile, before taking it to the garden. The heat generated during composting will kill the weed seeds. That minimizes the weed seeds you end up taking to the garden.

[Faithful_Servant]

There's a fairly easy way to sterilize those seeds. You run the soiled straw and manure through the compost pile, before taking it to the garden. The heat generated during composting will kill the weed seeds. That minimizes the weed seeds you end up taking to the garden.
That takes work. I'd rather just run them through a llama and be done with it. Llamas are a dime a dozen around here. The new thing is now alpacas (short, fluffy llamas w/o the attitude). I haven't gotten any alpaca poop yet, but I know where I can get some.

[Wolfcounsel]

That has a nice ring to it. Alpacapoop.

[The_Sonarman]

There's nothing wrong with using the soiled hay direct. Both the old hay and manure are decent compost materials to add to the soil. However, I admit ignorance as to putting desert land to work.

Turning under a load of raw materials direct to the ground before winter, and letting it rot through that season is another way to avoid the compost pile. Stuff "composts" direct in the ground pretty well, too. That's what my Grandpa did in Iowa, since they can't grow things through winter at that latitude.

It's just that some of the manures and urine soaked hay are a bit strong to be going direct into the ground without composting, and leaving the land alone for several months before planting anything there. But if it works going direct to the ground in your area, by all means save the extra effort. I know by personal experience turning compost piles is extra effort, and not terribly fun either..... especially multiple cubic yards of the stuff. Then, you still have to shovel it out of the pile, transport it, then shovel it into the growing area.