View Full Version : Family Walks on All Fours as Evolutionists Grasp at Straws
TSawyer2112
03-07-2006, 06:06 PM
The time-warp family who walk on all fours
by BEN FARMER, Daily Mail 08:31am 7th March 2006
An extraordinary family who walk on all fours are being hailed as the breakthrough discovery which could shed light on the moment Man first stood upright.
Scientists believe that the five brothers and sisters found in Turkey could hold unique insights into human evolution.
The Kurdish siblings, aged between 18 and 34 and from the rural south, 'bear crawl' on their feet and palms.
Study of the five has shown the astonishing behaviour is not a hoax and they are largely unable to walk otherwise.
Researchers have found a genetic condition which accounts for their extraordinary movement.
And it could provide invaluable information on how humans evolved from a four-legged hominid into a creature walking on two feet.
Two of the daughters and a son have only ever walked on two palms and two feet, but another son and daughter sometimes manage to walk upright.
The five can stand upright, but only for a short time, with both knees and head flexed.
Their remarkable story is told in a television documentary, to be screened next week, which shows scientists studying their movement, but also their struggle to fit in with modern society.
Professor Nicholas Humphrey, evolutionary psychologist at the London School of Economics, visited the family twice. He said: "It's amazing as an example of a strange, strange aberration of human development. But their interest is how they can live in the modern world."
The five are all mentally retarded. Their mother and father, who are closely related are believed to have handed down a unique combination of genes which result in the behaviour...Entire Article (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=379134&in_page_id=1770) I believe I may have seen a headline for this story on Yahoo earlier in the day, however in a preliminary search this evening I couldn't find it on Yahoo. Perhaps it smacked a little too much of some wacky tabloid.
DesertFox
03-07-2006, 08:28 PM
I think this is a bullshit story.
Charity
03-07-2006, 08:33 PM
Twister anyone? LOL
http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2006/03/timewarpfamilyBBC070306_450x298.jpg
DesertFox
03-07-2006, 08:50 PM
Liberals head to the voting booth.
TSawyer2112
03-07-2006, 08:55 PM
I knew I had seen this in the Yahoo headlines. I had to do a little more searching for it, but here it is; an AFP story via Yahoo:
Human quadrupeds discovered in Turkey
LONDON (AFP) - The discovery of a Turkish family that walks on all fours could aid research into the evolution of humans.
Researchers believe the five brothers and sisters, who can walk naturally only on all fours, may provide new information on how humans evolved from four-legged hominids to walk upright.
Nicholas Humphrey, evolutionary psychologist at the London School of Economics, told The Times the discovery opened "an extraordinary window on our past".
"I do not think they were designed to be quadrupeds by their genes, but their unique genetic make-up allowed them to be," he said.
"It has produced an extraordinary window on our past. It is physically possible, which noone would have guessed from the [modern] human skeleton."
The siblings, the subject of a new BBC documentary to be aired on March 17, suffer from a genetic abnormality that may prevent them from walking upright. Instead, they use their palms like heels with their fingers sticking up from the ground.
The BBC said the documentary would contribute to fierce scientific debate and raised profound questions about what it is to be human...Entire Article (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060307/sc_afp/turkeyhealthscience_060307125637)
Charity
03-07-2006, 09:05 PM
Liberals head to the voting booth.
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LOL
Okay, let me get this straight... they find a family whose members all share a congenital defect that prevents them from walking upright, and this is evidence of evolution?
When evos crow about how much evidence they have for evolution, remember... it's this kind of stuff they are talking about.
Antigone
03-07-2006, 10:36 PM
I'm not so sure I buy this story. Ranks right up there with Batboy.
Popperite
03-08-2006, 02:49 AM
I think this is a bullshit story.
I think it's for real. That or a rather good joke.
Bob_Arctor
03-08-2006, 06:23 PM
Even if the story is true I don't see how this could be considered to have anything to do with evolution.
Charity
03-08-2006, 06:25 PM
Even if the story is true I don't see how this could be considered to have anything to do with evolution.
<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->
I agree. :-)
Antigone
03-08-2006, 06:30 PM
Even if the story is true I don't see how this could be considered to have anything to do with evolution.
Exactly!!
DesertFox
03-08-2006, 08:04 PM
These are the first of a tribe that's evolving into monkeys.
Bob_Arctor
03-08-2006, 09:06 PM
These are the first of a tribe that's evolving into monkeys.
That's sort of the problem - no monkeys or apes walk like that! Well, I guess human toddlers do for a time, but it usually passes. :grin:
EveningStar
03-08-2006, 09:31 PM
Twister anyone? LOL
http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2006/03/timewarpfamilyBBC070306_450x298.jpg Hey! That photo has been doctored!
Here's the original:
http://wuzzadem.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/kerrywalk.jpg (http://wuzzadem.typepad.com/wuz/2006/03/the_time_warp_f.html)
BEST45CAL
03-08-2006, 10:52 PM
When I first saw this, I thought it could be true after seeing how they sit. They sit like apes.
But I'm holding out on this one because I think it's a hoax. I would think that their upper bodies and arms would have to be a hell of lot bigger if they are really quadrupeds.
BEST45CAL
03-08-2006, 11:04 PM
Hey! That photo has been doctored!
Here's the original:
http://wuzzadem.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/kerrywalk.jpg (http://wuzzadem.typepad.com/wuz/2006/03/the_time_warp_f.html)
LOL :claps:
Charity
03-09-2006, 09:28 AM
http://wuzzadem.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/kerrywalk.jpg
LOL
Native American
03-09-2006, 10:28 AM
Even if the story is true I don't see how this could be considered to have anything to do with evolution.
Exactly. Man is the result of intelligent design, not "evolution".
Bob_Arctor
03-09-2006, 05:49 PM
Originally Posted by Bob_Arctor
Even if the story is true I don't see how this could be considered to have anything to do with evolution.
Exactly. Man is the result of intelligent design, not "evolution".
I thought you were a YEC. If so, you should stay away from the ostensibly secular "ID," which chalks nothing up to any God...officially.
By the way, I'm wondering if you have any positve evidence for ID to offer. There hasn't been much of that around.
DesertFox
03-11-2006, 02:56 PM
All depends on what you accept as evidence.
DoctorDoom
03-12-2006, 01:24 PM
All depends on what you accept as evidence.Anything that doesn't require a Designer. He truly believes that his computer evolved from an abacus.
Bob_Arctor
03-13-2006, 04:51 PM
DF: "I just can't believe it" isn't evidence - and that is the foundation of the ID argument; it's an argument from incredulity.
DD: Computers don't reproduce, so they can't evolve. Strawman. :licky:
SmellyFed
03-13-2006, 04:57 PM
My dog periodically will get a dingleberry stuck to her butt and so she'll drag her ass around the yard by her two front legs until she cleans her self up... does this mean she's descended from a snail?
I better alert the media.
DesertFox
03-13-2006, 06:39 PM
You miss the point, Bobby. You evolutionist guys think a reptile with feathers is proof that birds evolved from reptiles, when it could just as well mean nature tried feathers out on more than one kind of critter and the one it worked on is the one that survived.
That's what I mean by "what you accept as proof." There are plenty of other examples. You guys count change in allele frequency as proof of speciation, but that doesn't persuade me or many others, including many with PhD's in biology.
Set the bar low enough on what you'll accept as proof, and you can prove pert near anything. But when one of your main men (Dawkins) outright lies about his subject, I'd say your side of the argument is seriously grasping at straws.
Bob_Arctor
03-13-2006, 07:33 PM
You miss the point, Bobby. You evolutionist guys think a reptile with feathers is proof that birds evolved from reptiles, when it could just as well mean nature tried feathers out on more than one kind of critter and the one it worked on is the one that survived.
By your logic you can dismiss anything by saying "well, it's just a coincidence." If we only had a few bits of evidence, maybe it could just be a coincidence. But we have a lot, and it all points in the same direction.
Take your exmple of feathered dinosaurs. It has long been thought that birds are the descendents of dinosaurs, because they have much in common. Birds appear in the fossil record during the time of the dinosaurs. Birds are known to be closely related to reptiles from their genetics. There are birdlike dinosaurs that closely predate true birds. Then we find, right in the middle of the timeline, small extremely birdlike dinosaurs that have feathers.
Sure - it could just be a total coincidence. But it isn't likely.
That's what I mean by "what you accept as proof." There are plenty of other examples. You guys count change in allele frequency as proof of speciation, but that doesn't persuade me or many others, including many with PhD's in biology.
That is a pretty basic definition of what evolution is, but it isn't proof. We do have a lot of evidence, and the evidence comes from many different directions. See above and below.
As far as PhDs in bio who are skeptics of the ToE, there are very, very few. And those who are also are virtually always - by coincidence? - extremely religious, typically fundamentalists who magically begin to see that "it's all a lie" right after their conversions. Then again every scientific discipline has its skeptics. There are a few physics PhDs out there who disagree with generally agreed upon ideas in that field as well. That doesn't mean that the foundation of physics is likely to be wrong.
Set the bar low enough on what you'll accept as proof, and you can prove pert near anything.
But the bar for evidence in the field is actually very high, because of the resistance to the idea of evolution. Despite what you seem to believe evolution isn't just some idle speculation. We could make any number of observations that are totally incompatible with the ToE - but we keep not making them. How can this be?
But when one of your main men (Dawkins) outright lies about his subject, I'd say your side of the argument is seriously grasping at straws.
You still haven't explained exactly what he supposedly lied about. Despite his caustic attitude Dawkins is still generally well-respected.
However, speaking of liars - if a liar who lies about a given subject means the subject they defend might be false - there are many lying creationists out there. How about "Mr" Kent Hovind, to take perhaps the most obvious example?
I know you've seen this before, but bear with me: it's the famous page from talkorigins, "29+ Evidences for Macroevolution."
<TABLE class=outline cellPadding=5 summary="" border=1><TBODY><TR class=outline><TD class=outline33>Introduction (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/default.html#intro)
Universal Common Descent Defined (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/default.html#common_descent)
Evidence for Common Descent is Independent of Mechanism (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/default.html#theorytobetested)
What Counts as Scientific Evidence (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/default.html#evidence)
Other Explanations for the Biology (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/default.html#alternate_explanations)
How to Cite This Document (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/default.html#citing) Scientific Evidence and the Scientific Method (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/sciproof.html)
Phylogenetics introduction (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/phylo.html)
Figure 1: A consensus universal phylogeny (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/phylo.html#fig1)
Cladistics and phylogenetic reconstruction (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/phylo.html#phylogenetics)
Maximum parsimony (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/phylo.html#parsimony)
Maximum likelihood (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/phylo.html#likelihood)
Distance matrix methods (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/phylo.html#distance)
Statistical support for phylogenies (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/phylo.html#reliability)
Does phylogenetic inference find correct trees? (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/phylo.html#correct)
Caveats with determining phylogenetic trees (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/phylo.html#caveats) </TD><TD class=outline33>Part I. A unique, historical phylogenetic tree (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section1.html)
Unity of life (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section1.html#fundamental_unity)
Nested hierarchies (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section1.html#nested_hierarchy)
Convergence of independent phylogenies (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section1.html#independent_convergence)
Statistics of incongruent phylogenies (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/incongruent.html)
Transitional forms (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section1.html#morphological_intermediates)
Reptile-birds (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section1.html#morphological_intermediates_ex1)
Reptile-mammals (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section1.html#morphological_intermediates_ex2)
Ape-humans (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section1.html#morphological_intermediates_ex3)
Legged whales (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section1.html#morphological_intermediates_ex4)
Legged seacows (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section1.html#morphological_intermediates_ex4)
Chronology of common ancestors (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section1.html#chronology) </TD><TD class=outline33>Part 2. Past history (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section2.html)
Anatomical vestiges (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section2.html#morphological_vestiges)
Atavisms (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section2.html#atavisms)
Whales with hindlimbs (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section2.html#atavisms_ex1)
Humans tails (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section2.html#atavisms_ex2)
Molecular vestiges (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section2.html#molecular_vestiges)
Ontogeny and developmental biology (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section2.html#ontogeny)
Mammalian ear bones, reptilian jaws (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section2.html#ontogeny_ex1)
Pharyngeal pouches, branchial arches (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section2.html#ontogeny_ex2)
Snake embryos with legs (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section2.html#ontogeny_ex3)
Embryonic human tail (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section2.html#ontogeny_ex4)
Marsupial eggshell and caruncle (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section2.html#ontogeny_ex5) <!--
chicken teeth (http://www.freeconservatives.com/vb/section2.html#ontogeny_ex6)-->
Present biogeography (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section2.html#present_biogeography)
Past biogeography (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section2.html#past_biogeography)
Marsupials (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section2.html#past_biogeography_ex1)
Horses (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section2.html#past_biogeography_ex2)
Apes and humans (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section2.html#past_biogeography_ex3) </TD></TR><TR class=outline><TD class=outline33>Part 3. Evolutionary opportunism (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section3.html)
Anatomical parahomology (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section3.html#morphological_parahomology)
Molecular parahomology (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section3.html#molecular_parahomology)
Anatomical convergence (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section3.html#morphological_analogy)
Molecular convergence (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section3.html#molecular_analogy)
Anatomical suboptimal function (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section3.html#morphological_inefficiency)
Molecular suboptimal function (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section3.html#molecular_inefficiency) </TD><TD class=outline33>Part 4. Molecular evidence (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section4.html)
Protein functional redundancy (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section4.html#protein_redundancy)
DNA functional redundancy (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section4.html#DNA_redundancy)
Transposons (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section4.html#transposons)
Redundant pseudogenes (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section4.html#pseudogenes)
Endogenous retroviruses (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section4.html#retroviruses) </TD><TD class=outline33>Part 5. Change (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section5.html)
Genetic (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section5.html#genetic_change)
Morphological (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section5.html#morphological_change)
Functional (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section5.html#functional_change)
The strange past (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section5.html#strange_past)
Stages of speciation (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section5.html#speciation_stages)
Speciation events (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section5.html#speciations)
Morphological rates (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section5.html#morphological_rates)
Genetic rates (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section5.html#genetic_rates) </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/
That's an enormous amount of evidence, and it comes from different fields - geentics, paleontology and so on. Look at the pages on endogenous retroviruses (ERVs) and pseudogenes. Those are my personal favorites as far as evidence goes. They are, respectively, old "fossilized" viruses in our DNA and "fossils" of formerly working genes. Beyond the fact that they are incompatible with any kind of design, they are excellent evidence for common descent. ERVs can be found in many lineages.
Look at this:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/images/retrovirus.gif
Figure 4.4.1. Human endogenous retrovirus K (HERV-K) insertions in identical chromosomal locations in various primates (Reprinted from Lebedev et al. 2000, © 2000, with permission from Elsevier Science).
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section4.html#retroviruses
As you go up the "family tree," you see that we begin to have more and more ERVs in common with other primates. Therefore, after each split in the lineage the common ancestors were sometimes infected with viruses that occasionally infected the germ cells. After the orangutans branched off, the ancestor of humans, chimps and gorillas was infected by several viruses. The same thing happened after gorillas split from the chimp/human common ancestor, and again after that line split. If evolution didn't happen, there'd be no reason for this pattern of ERVs.
The same goes for pseudogenes. Once a gene is "broken," there is no selective pressure to keep it free of deleterious mutations. Therefore they begin to accumulate, and mutation rates are pretty well known. So if two species share a certain pseudogene, you can look at the mutations they share and those that are new in each species (in the certain pseudogene). Then you can calculate when the species diverged, i.e. when they shared a common ancestor. Typically these dates match very well with the dates given by examining the fossils of the respective species.
Could this be a coincidence? I suppose, though it's incredibly unlikely. But these sorts of observations are exactly what the ToE predicts.
ConservativeYouthMovement
03-13-2006, 08:38 PM
Well, considering the miracle of God (should you believe him) could never be explained or proven in its entirety, it is entirely feasible that God created anything science ever discovered, and whatever scientific breakthroughs are made are simply unlocking the secrets left behind. After all, it is undeniable that men wrote the bible, and there is no way, even if told by God, that any person could ever understand how the universe came to be, or how anything in it came to be. The only way a person can learn is to find the reason himself, even if he was shown exactly how the universe was created by God, he would be lost and confused anyway.
Teenager
03-13-2006, 08:56 PM
All I can say is, if this story is true, then it would disprove evolution, rather than proving it. The reason is evolution is supposed to advance the survival of the fittest into a higher life form. Yet this family is retarded, and furthermore this defect in no way serves them for the greater good.
Also, I would like to say that this story only proves God's powers at work.
pinqy
03-13-2006, 09:14 PM
The reason is evolution is supposed to advance the survival of the fittest into a higher life form.
ummm, no. That's a completely inaccurate description of evolution. How on earth can you argue against something when you don't understand what you're arguing against?
Popperite
03-14-2006, 08:30 AM
All I can say is, if this story is true, then it would disprove evolution, rather than proving it. The reason is evolution is supposed to advance the survival of the fittest into a higher life form. Yet this family is retarded, and furthermore this defect in no way serves them for the greater good.
Also, I would like to say that this story only proves God's powers at work.
No, that is one of the BASIC misunderstandings about evolution. There is no specific goal set that evolution strives to achieve. Not even towards, what is in the biased eyes of men, held to be "higher" or "improvement". It does however reward forms better adapted to its specific enviroment.
Charity
03-14-2006, 08:46 AM
Ahhhh we are back to "define evolution", once again I see.
Telit laikitiz
03-14-2006, 09:21 AM
Intelligent Design, i.e., God created man from the dust of the earth. God created woman from man. You can try to change it, but it is what it is. When you die, your opinion won't matter. God's word is and will always be the last word. Play all the games you want, say what you want, but in the end, God is God and you are not.
Wolfcounsel
03-14-2006, 09:42 AM
"These are the first of a tribe that's evolving into monkeys." --DesertFox
What are you talking about? Tribes of clowns who invade this forum from other liberal sites evolve into monkeys all the time, in no time at all.:evilgrin:
Bob_Arctor
03-14-2006, 03:36 PM
Intelligent Design, i.e., God created man from the dust of the earth. God created woman from man. You can try to change it, but it is what it is. When you die, your opinion won't matter. God's word is and will always be the last word. Play all the games you want, say what you want, but in the end, God is God and you are not.
That's not the "standard" definition of ID. You're letting the cat out of the bag by admitting that ID is basically just Biblical creationism, which the ID supporters insist it is not. You're arguing for creationism, not ID. The IDers don't like this because it shows ID to be religious in nature when they try and argue it is purely secular.
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