Families Demand Changes for Firefighters

[Rhino]

Jul 10, 5:16 AM EDT

Families Demand Changes for Firefighters

By SHANNON DININNY
Associated Press Writer

YAKIMA, Wash. (AP) -- Karen FitzPatrick's favorite Bible verses still compete for space on her bedroom wall with inspirational quotations and photographs - posing with her prom date, goofy snapshots with family and friends.

But a neatly folded flag and a firefighters' boots and helmet serve as a reminder of the fire that raged through a remote canyon in Okanogan National Forest five years ago Monday, killing the 18-year-old and three other trapped firefighters.

In the years since the so-called Thirtymile fire, family members of the victims have repeatedly demanded policy changes at the U.S. Forest Service, from increasing training to removing the shroud of secrecy over disciplinary actions.

An investigation found that fire bosses had broken all 10 of the agency's standard safety rules and ignored numerous signs of danger on the fire line that day, July 10, 2001.

It wasn't the first time such rules had been broken and it wasn't the last - two more firefighters died in similar circumstances in the Cramer fire in remote Idaho in 2003.

"The Forest Service is the Wild West. They are not accountable for anything," said Kathie FitzPatrick, Karen's mother, as she stood in the bedroom where the calendar hasn't moved from July 2001. "They can do anything they want. They have immunity."

The Forest Service developed its safety rules and a list of danger watch signs after 28 firefighters died on wildfires in Montana and Southern California in the late 1940s and 1950s.

Yet in 1994, another 14 firefighters died on Colorado's Storm King Mountain after eight of 10 safety rules and several watch signs were broken, ignored or unrecognized........http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/A/AFTER_THIRTYMILE?SITE=FLTAM&SECTION=US

[Incident_command]

Three facts.
1 The forrest service has lowered their standards again and again.
2 On almost any fire you will find rules broken and procedures not followed.
3. The job is dangerous, people die.

1 .When you continue to lower standards and quality of people, or have no real standards as Forestry does, bad things happen. Few local, county, or metro departments are as relaxed as they are. I wouldn't say its the wild west, but it is in need of change. See the english speaking thread for another example.

2. We prove this after every fire. Each fire gets a critique and all the errors come out. The idea isnt to point fingers but to try to eliminate it happening again. You hear your mistakes and take it like a man.
In most fire related deaths human error plays a part, be it poor physical conditioning, ignoring or not knowing warning signs of rapid changes in fire conditions, poor planning/SOP's, freelancing, poor incident command structure/ fireground communication, or poor equipment maintenace.

3. No matter how good you get this is going to happen. Its a bad part of the job.

I'll say it again, I'll take a building fire over a wildland fire any day.

[Rhino]

But, did they speak English?

[Incident_command]

Yea, a little thing like that.

[Lubbock]

On the one hand, I wouldn't place a lot of trust in any agency that investigates itself.

On the other hand, wildfires are so unpredictable that I don't see how "rules" have that much effect. The "rule" that applies this minute in this circumstance, dosen't apply thirty seconds from now with a slight wind change.

That's an over-simplification, I know.

I would say "training" is the issue, not "rules".

[Incident_command]

Liability Has Some Thinking Twice About Leading

Firefighter Kenneth Jordan once hoped to lead one of the nation's elite teams of specialized wildfire and disaster incident managers.

Not anymore. Not since a wildfire in Idaho three years ago left two firefighters dead - and their fire commander facing potential federal charges for their deaths.

These days, Jordan is thinking more about retirement.
"For an incident commander to have to look after everybody on a fire is ridiculous. It's a ridiculous theory," he said.

http://cms.firehouse.com/content/article/article.jsp?sectionId=4&id=50168


Fact is even with a proper span of control and having sectors set up as recommended, you still can't control all that happens.
The fire service is moving in the wrong direction if you ask me. In 20 years interior firefighting will be said to be too dangerous and it will all be CYA.

Some good points and some week ones in this article.