Black preachers plan protest against mosque opening in NW Pompano

[Incident_command]

Black preachers plan protest against mosque opening in NW Pompano

POMPANO BEACH -- Preachers from some of the northwest area's most influential churches plan to bring their flocks and sermons to City Hall tonight to demand that leaders keep a mosque from opening in their neighborhood.

"We want to make such a fuss that the Muslims will pack up," Dozier, of the Worldwide Christian Center, which has more than 100 members, said at a meeting with fellow pastors recently. To leaders of the Islamic Center, the answer is not in protests and anger.

The negative reaction to a mosque being built was a wake-up call to the state of relations between the black and Muslim communities in Pompano Beach, Islamic leaders said.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/broward/sfl-ctensionjul11,0,4891471.story?coll=sfla-news-broward



This is going on now in the bad part of Pompano. The mosque now is about 1 mile from my house in a nice residential area. They moved into a large home on about 1/2 acre and converted it into a mosque back in 1984-85. Originally the home owner offered the house to the city as a historical landmark, the city turned him down. Muslims have bought property in the black part of town and want to move out there.
The mosque hasn't been any kind of problem, they keep it up nice and control parking well. Its where I have to go to vote so I've been inside it many times.
The blacks have made some great remarks on this, such as they "muslims" contribute nothing to the area, they bring down property value, they are a drain on services,they add crime to the area, and so on. Sounds familiar huh?
Even the local media is making a joke on this saying only the black community could get away with this type of activity.

[Foquet]

Preach it, man.

I back the church and the preacher 1000%. We are America...not Little Saudi Arabia, complete with raping, killing verses from the Devil's book.

Give me a raucous chorus of good gospel music anyway.

A shame that the Dem Party and the ACLU will not see it this way.

[Lubbock]

I would be more concerned about what's being preached inside the Mosque rather than how the property is being kept up.

Can the black community point to specific crimes that the Muslims are responsible for?

And yes, only blacks can get away with this. If white Baptist preachers tried this, they would be vilified in the press seven ways from Sunday.

[Foquet]

From a political POV...yes generally only the black community can get away with this. In this case, more power to them.

But, big deal. The hatred that is practiced within any Mulsm walls is to be taken seriously. And frankly, any mosque should be zoned out of any community. It is way past time to exercise some Lincoln principles and practice some extra-Constituional measures.

[Rhino]

I back the church and the preacher 1000%. We are America....
Stifling the free exercise of religious worship is not America. Not even close.

[Foquet]

Tell that to the Marxists that lead the Dem party. When a mosque can be setup to preach the hate of the Western world (and garner more Dem votes) and the killing of Americans, while at the same time we cannot say "God" in public, then get back to me.

This has little to do with relgious faith and all about spreading the cancer that is Islam around this country. We are 20 years too late as it is. That is why the Twin Towers are no loger standing. Tolerance in the endm only gains you nothing.

War demands a different mindset.

Stifling the free exercise of religious worship is not America. Not even close.

[Incident_command]

Stifling the free exercise of religious worship is not America. Not even close.

Agreed. Non the less the post was intended to show the irony of the black communities comments, not to defend Islam.

[Lubbock]

The stifling of the free exercise of religious worship can only be accomplished by the ACLU against White Christians, but that's a subject for another thred, another day.

Let me ask the questions again: can the blacks point to any specific crime or crime statistic that the Muslims in the community are responsible for? I suspect not.

And yes, the irony of this is almost more than my tiny little mind can grasp.

And God knows, I'm not defending Muslims. I wish the first one had never crossed our shores many, many moons ago. I know Islam --as it's being practiced in many Mosques by many Muslims in this nation is a gutter religion and a death cult, but so is Satanism or Wiccan or what ever the devil worshipers call it, but I believe it is a "recognized" religion. Just one of the many threads in the American Fabric.

[Incident_command]

Let me ask the questions again: can the blacks point to any specific crime or crime statistic that the Muslims in the community are responsible for? I suspect not.


No. Like I said on the outside they've been good neighbors

[DeclinetoState]

I thought blacks and Muslims in the U.S. were virtually one and the same--all victims of the white Jew/Catholic/Protestant man.

[True Grace]

Stifling the free exercise of religious worship is not America. Not even close.

You believe people should have the freedom in this country to worship a god who is telling those worshipers to destroy us?

I respect the right to practice any religion in this country if it does not harm other people. Islam is not such a religion.

The government has stepped in in the past where the "freedom to worship" was causing harm to others. I don't see this as being any different.

[Rhino]

Agreed. Non the less the post was intended to show the irony of the black communities comments, not to defend Islam.
Okay. I have no argument with that.

[Rhino]

You believe people should have the freedom in this country to worship a god who is telling those worshipers to destroy us?

I respect the right to practice any religion in this country if it does not harm other people. Islam is not such a religion.

The government has stepped in in the past where the "freedom to worship" was causing harm to others. I don't see this as being any different.
I do.

[True Grace]

I do.

So you think people's right to freedom of religion supercedes other rights? You don't think the government should step in when a religion/religious practice threatens the security of our country or harms other people?

[Rhino]

Please don't try to put words in my mouth. Just because I don't share your xenophobic views of Islam doesn't mean I support any of those notions you cite. You said you don't see this as being any different. I simply said that I do.

[Wolfcounsel]

"Stifling the free exercise of religious worship is not America." --Rhino

I agree, and somebody should kick the crap out of the pinkos like the ACLU doing that right now.

Islam is a cult. Ask any Muslim woman killed for the purpose of keeping Islam clean and pure if they would go back to that insane asylum.

[True Grace]

Please don't try to put words in my mouth. Just because I don't share your xenophobic views of Islam doesn't mean I support any of those notions you cite. You said you don't see this as being any different. I simply said that I do.

I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, Rhino. I am trying to understand your position.

I would be much more at ease with Muslims if they made a point of speaking out against the attacks and other terror instigated by their Muslim brethren. The silence has been deafening.

[Rhino]

The silence is largely due to the media. You can do a Google search and find multiple instances of muslims speaking out against the violence.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=muslim+leaders+denounce+terrorism

Considering the contempt they get when they speak publicly, I can't say I'm surprised that more aren't doing it. But just because there are radical muslims out there, it's patently unfair to label them all as such. People have been killed in the name of Christianity too, plenty of them, but I would never go so far as to label Christianity based on the actions of some crazed zealots. I simply extend that same consideration to muslims, because I know for a fact that many are quite peaceful.

[Lubbock]

For all of the rhetoric regarding Islam --and I'm one who personally believes that Bunker Busters and Daisy Cutters over thousands of square miles of the Islamic world would go a long way toward quelling the terrorism problem world wide, but even I have enough common sense to know that the vast majority of the Islamic world does not subscribe to Militant Islam.

The problem with Islam is Islam. Until the so-called moderates take a visible, vocal stand against Militant Islam, the rhetoric from the "western" world will continue. So far, the "moderates" haven't shown me anything.

As to Muslims in here in America being able to worship in a peaceful way in their Mosques, don't look for the "government" to step in and prevent it.

I personally believe that our intelligence community has a firm grasp on the Mullahs who are fomenting American Hate in the Mosques here in the United States. Just the fact that we're seeing cells busted, right and left, is proof of that.

[omegatrump]

Stifling the free exercise of religious worship is not America. Not even close.

You mean like in Iraq, Iran, Somalia, Northern Sudan, Syria, Saudia Arabia, where W's great religion of peace exibits it's great call to freedom of worship. Especially Iraq now since America has established our great concept of freedom there with an establishment of one religion as the only religion of that nation? American blood has been spent to establish this religious state.

Freedom of religius worship? Not hardly, it's more like the establishment of a beach head.

Islam is more a kin to Marxism, or Naziism then it is to a religion. The death cult of our time exibits nothing but debauchery, death, and intolerance.

[True Grace]

The silence is largely due to the media. You can do a Google search and find multiple instances of muslims speaking out against the violence.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=muslim+leaders+denounce+terrorism

Why would the liberal media stifle them? They aren't Christian.

Considering the contempt they get when they speak publicly, I can't say I'm surprised that more aren't doing it.

If someone claiming the name of Christ strapped a bomb to himself and blew up a bunch of innocent people, I have no doubt there would be scores of Christians rising up and denouncing what he did, no matter what people thought about them. I'd be the first one in line. And I would do everything in my power to distance myself and my faith from such an obvious perversion of what Christianity stands for.

Facing contempt is not an excuse for not doing what is good and right.

[Rhino]

You mean like in Iraq, Iran, Somalia, Northern Sudan, Syria, Saudia Arabia, where W's great religion of peace exibits it's great call to freedom of worship.I don't aspire for us to be like them. BTW, it's not his religion.

Why would the liberal media stifle them? They aren't Christian.I've asked myself the same question. I tend to think it's due to the media's tendency to report the negative far more than the positive. That and the fact that they often get persecuted if they speak up.

Lubbock brought up an interesting point. I'd like to see far more of them over there speak out against the violence. Like it or not, the muslims over there are far less likely to heed muslims over here who condemn the violence.

If someone claiming the name of Christ strapped a bomb to himself and blew up a bunch of innocent people, I have no doubt there would be scores of Christians rising up and denouncing what he did, no matter what people thought about them. I'd be the first one in line. And I would do everything in my power to distance myself and my faith from such an obvious perversion of what Christianity stands for.As would I. But I wouldn't condemn Christianity for it. People often seem quite willing to do that with Islam.

Facing contempt is not an excuse for not doing what is good and right.The safety of yourself and your family is a poweful motivator. Plenty of Christians have, and sometimes still do, keep a low profile in the interest of self preservation. That's often good and right as well.

[Lubbock]

Contempt might not be a valid excuse, but getting your head chopped off might.

Before September 11, 2001, who among us gave Islam a thought?

I didn't, and I spent a number of years living in an Islamic/Muslim nation.
Islamic anti-American hate has decades to foment and grow, and the problem of Islamic terror isn't going to be solved overnight. I expect this War on Terror is something that my grandchildren will be living with long after I'm in my grave.

[omegatrump]

On second thought maybe I was a little out of line. In view of the fact that America has murdered and mutilated 45,000,000 children, and the courts have all but outlawed the Worship of the G-d that gave her the favor to become the great nation she is or was, maybe she deserves to let this thing happen to her.

The same thing that just happened in Mogadishu which is the ultimate outcome of the establishment of this beach head.

[Rhino]

LOL! Okay. I can't stretch quite that far.

[Lubbock]

I don't know how this thread go so far off topic, but while we're off topic, let me make one further observation:

The United States of America will always have our Freedom used against us by those with nafarious goals. Our Freedom is what makes us who we are as a nation, but others will use it against us.

Freedom from . . .

Freedom to . . .

It's what makes us vulnerable as a Nation.

[Wyatt_Junker]

Stifling the free exercise of religious worship is not America. Not even close.

Not if the religion in question is using its 501c3 status as a staging ground for methodical subversion of America itself. Especially if one of the main goals of such a religion is to quash the 'free exercise of religious worship in America' as you say. Then its antithetical to our way of life, our freedoms, our culture and our Constitution.

Its the same for all religions. Kathy already said it better than I. You can do whatever it is you like as long as your 'religion' doesn't venture into any extra-legal activity, and, if one of those areas turns out to be yelling 'fire' in a crowded theater or yelling 'jumbo jet' in a crowded city full of sky scrapers or applauding an insurgency against this nations' sovereignty or giving money to foreign 'charities' that go to support suicide bombers or practicing honor killings or, or, or, or...

Then, your sentiment, as wonderful as it sounds, really does not apply.

[Rhino]

Wyatt, if I thought Islam were such a religion as you suggest, then I would agree. But I don't think that, so my sentiment is completely applicable.

[Wolfcounsel]

"Wyatt, if I thought Islam were such a religion as you suggest, then I would agree. But I don't think that, so my sentiment is completely applicable." --Rhino

I've said it many times. Islam has no clergy. The self-proclaimed mullahs, who have taken as their goal the rule of nations through Islam, have to be exterminated, squashed like cockroaches wherever they are found. Until they are extinct, Islam will be steered in the direction of the wholesale slaughter of all infidels.<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

[Lubbock]

I believe there are factions of Muslims in this nation who are doing exactly what Wyatt described.

I also believe that our intelligence community --to the extent that the New York Times and the Liberals will allow it, are monitoring these organizations.

We just have to live with the certain knowledge that to date, there has not been another attack on us, and there has to be a reason for that.

Should another attack come, then all bets are off. God help the Muslims --Moderate or Militant, in this nation if another attack comes.

Almost within hours of the 9/11 attacks, Bush started talking about Islam being a Religion of Peace. I understood immediately why he had to do that. Had he not --had he openly expressed his anger toward the Islam that fomented the attacks, it would have been open season on American Muslims and their Mosques.

If another attack comes, no amount of talk by any President will be able to prevent vigilante justice, I fear.

[Rhino]

I believe there are factions of Muslims in this nation who are doing exactly what Wyatt described.
No doubt. I just don't agree that the actions or beliefs of factions necessarily translate to the religion as a whole. There are radical factions in every religion, but that doesn't make those religions entirely radical.

[Wyatt_Junker]

Wyatt, if I thought Islam were such a religion as you suggest, then I would agree. But I don't think that, so my sentiment is completely applicable.

At least you are logically clear then about the gist of the argument, which is good on one level even though wrong in terms of how it is applied.

I love the romantic pitch of American culture: FOS and FOR. America has the same ethic as a kind Mr. Rogers episode, very accepting and tolerant as he takes off his shoes.

However, regarding Islam, what France is showing us in real time is that if the demographic shift becomes large enough, and in most cases with Islam that means 10% of the total pop., then that minority culture stops playing cute and begins demanding rights that, in turn, translate into regional tribal law and/or torching the infrastructure. Why? Because the tenets of Islam are state related. Its integral in the sense that its not just a religion but a political, social and cultural force that has little tolerance for the American way of life you describe. Islam is exclusive. Islam does not operate under a society built on free inquiry. Islam is and has always been married to the state. Islam demands mediocrity since it relies on illiteracy as one of its building blocks of expanding its empire. And those 'empires' can be under the banner of other nations until they reach a critical mass, and then, the formal shift is as easy as composing a new national anthem or placing a crescent onto the new state flag.

Unlike invasions of old where brute force was flagrant and up-front, these invasions are quiet and rely on the language of the host country's open, free societies as their means of capture. We are cooked lobsters where the water temperature only increases gradually. We don't notice a shift in the culture since its not immediate. And our enemies use the language of our own freedoms as the lullabye that puts us to sleep. Look at the Left here. They use the language of the Founding Fathers as the greasy lube of their Constitutional adultery. We go to bed at night feeling good about our country, not realizing that what we most love about our country(its institutions and culture) is the very vehicle that our enemy thrives on to impart its new code. America will be islamic as much as France already is. There is nothing we can do. The multicultural themes of our time are making sure of that. Political correctness is tightened down by the very cliches that formed this country, even though it is applied slantwise and not straightforward.

The ratciocination of the new left employs the ethnic card to achieve its goals of breaking down the whitebread demographic; the white anglo saxon protestant male, of taming him, calming him down, deballing him by gutting Western Heritage which gave rise to the ideals of the enlightenment. The neo-left is tired of the enlightenment. They are tired of capitalism. They are tired of freedom. They don't like working for the man and are too uncourageous to start their own business, so they blame the man for having the courage that they lack and go back door to try to legislate him out of existence. Muslims are just the new kid on the block that watch the effectiveness of the left. They were a little over exuberant on 9/11, a bit too excited. The smart ones will sit back, be patient as they bloodlessly breed in their revolution from the inside out. They have all the time in the world as they watch whitebread die in front of his lazy atheistic shell of cable TV. Its called rope-a-dope and the 'nice' muslims you see, are the smart ones unlike their terrorist cousins. They know the score. They will use our institutions as it suits them and when the door is open wide enough, then the full and shameless boldness will arrive as it already has in other nations; the tolerance of intolerance and the death of all American themes as they are not needed any longer. American freedom of speech and freedom of religion will be used as long as they are necessary, and then, once the critical mass is here, they will be discarded as now the democratic 'vote' will usher in a new wave of theocratic muslim rule.

[True Grace]

No doubt. I just don't agree that the actions or beliefs of factions necessarily translate to the religion as a whole. There are radical factions in every religion, but that doesn't make those religions entirely radical.

How do we separate the radicals from the moderates if the moderates aren't going to speak up and separate themselves from the radicals?

[Lubbock]

And I agree with that 100%, Rhino.

That's like Phelps calling himself a "Baptist".

[Rhino]

How do we separate the radicals from the moderates if the moderates aren't going to speak up and separate themselves from the radicals?How do you do that with anyone? I'm not comfortable with the premise of guilt by association. I'm just as worried about radical Islamists as anyone here. I just don't see sacrificing the principles upon which this country was founded. If we are to do that, we will have already surrendered.

[Rhino]

And I agree with that 100%, Rhino.

That's like Phelps calling himself a "Baptist".
Yeah. He crossed my mind too.

[True Grace]

While Phelps and his ilk are repugnant at best, they are not threatening the safety and security of this country.

[Rhino]

Neither are most muslims here.

[True Grace]

Neither are most muslims here.

And that begs my question from earlier:

How do we separate the radicals from the moderates if the moderates aren't going to speak up and separate themselves from the radicals?<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

[TechnoPrincess]

What I found interesting, after reading the whole article and doing a search regarding it, is that these pastors are all riled up but the residents who are going to be living in the neighborhood aren't. From the articles I found, most of the residents don't care or don't see it as any harm.

[Incident_command]

Thats because the place is going to be in an industrial area with few homes in close vicinity.I wish I posted the first article that came out last week, it was much worse.

[TechnoPrincess]

Thats because the place is going to be in an industrial area with few homes in close vicinity.I wish I posted the first article that came out last week, it was much worse.

Ahhh...thanks for the clarification. I didn't notice that being mentioned much in the articles.

[Rhino]

And that begs my question from earlier:

How do we separate the radicals from the moderates if the moderates aren't going to speak up and separate themselves from the radicals?
The same as with any criminal, I guess. Wait for a crime to actually be committed. I would presume that any indication of radical tendencies would garner some attention from law enforcement, at least I sure hope so.

I wish I posted the first article that came out last week, it was much worse.
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/broward/sfl-cdozierjul11,0,6643659.story
http://www.local10.com/news/9367230/detail.html
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/14820428.htm
http://www.highbeam.com/library/docFree.asp?DOCID=1Y1:94282794

[Incident_command]

All but the one I was looking for Rhino. It was the first one by the sun sentinal. Thanks though.

[Rhino]

I tried searching their site, but for some reason it wouldn't give it to me.

[omegatrump]

At least you are logically clear then about the gist of the argument, which is good on one level even though wrong in terms of how it is applied.

I love the romantic pitch of American culture: FOS and FOR. America has the same ethic as a kind Mr. Rogers episode, very accepting and tolerant as he takes off his shoes.

However, regarding Islam, what France is showing us in real time is that if the demographic shift becomes large enough, and in most cases with Islam that means 10% of the total pop., then that minority culture stops playing cute and begins demanding rights that, in turn, translate into regional tribal law and/or torching the infrastructure. Why? Because the tenets of Islam are state related. Its integral in the sense that its not just a religion but a political, social and cultural force that has little tolerance for the American way of life you describe. Islam is exclusive. Islam does not operate under a society built on free inquiry. Islam is and has always been married to the state. Islam demands mediocrity since it relies on illiteracy as one of its building blocks of expanding its empire. And those 'empires' can be under the banner of other nations until they reach a critical mass, and then, the formal shift is as easy as composing a new national anthem or placing a crescent onto the new state flag.

Unlike invasions of old where brute force was flagrant and up-front, these invasions are quiet and rely on the language of the host country's open, free societies as their means of capture. We are cooked lobsters where the water temperature only increases gradually. We don't notice a shift in the culture since its not immediate. And our enemies use the language of our own freedoms as the lullabye that puts us to sleep. Look at the Left here. They use the language of the Founding Fathers as the greasy lube of their Constitutional adultery. We go to bed at night feeling good about our country, not realizing that what we most love about our country(its institutions and culture) is the very vehicle that our enemy thrives on to impart its new code. America will be islamic as much as France already is. There is nothing we can do. The multicultural themes of our time are making sure of that. Political correctness is tightened down by the very cliches that formed this country, even though it is applied slantwise and not straightforward.

The ratciocination of the new left employs the ethnic card to achieve its goals of breaking down the whitebread demographic; the white anglo saxon protestant male, of taming him, calming him down, deballing him by gutting Western Heritage which gave rise to the ideals of the enlightenment. The neo-left is tired of the enlightenment. They are tired of capitalism. They are tired of freedom. They don't like working for the man and are too uncourageous to start their own business, so they blame the man for having the courage that they lack and go back door to try to legislate him out of existence. Muslims are just the new kid on the block that watch the effectiveness of the left. They were a little over exuberant on 9/11, a bit too excited. The smart ones will sit back, be patient as they bloodlessly breed in their revolution from the inside out. They have all the time in the world as they watch whitebread die in front of his lazy atheistic shell of cable TV. Its called rope-a-dope and the 'nice' muslims you see, are the smart ones unlike their terrorist cousins. They know the score. They will use our institutions as it suits them and when the door is open wide enough, then the full and shameless boldness will arrive as it already has in other nations; the tolerance of intolerance and the death of all American themes as they are not needed any longer. American freedom of speech and freedom of religion will be used as long as they are necessary, and then, once the critical mass is here, they will be discarded as now the democratic 'vote' will usher in a new wave of theocratic muslim rule.

Very well said Wyatt!

[omegatrump]

Wyatt, if I thought Islam were such a religion as you suggest, then I would agree. But I don't think that, so my sentiment is completely applicable.

Look at the evidence Rhino, Iran, Afganistan, Sudan, Somalia, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon etc. etc. Saudia Arabia, UAE, Try standing on the street corner in any of those countries and hand out free Gospel literature. If you are a Muslim there try anouncing your conversion to Christianity.

W is the only one I've heard calling it "a great religion of peace".

[Rhino]

I found out why it wouldn't give me that article. You have to pay for articles over two weeks old.

This one is interesting. Some residents are complaining that their opposition was mischaracterized by the media. They don't oppose any religion, but just wanted residential property there.

http://www.thewestsidegazette.com/News/article/article.asp?NewsID=70554&sID=4

There are quite a few houses around there. The property is surrounded on three sides by residential property. There's a lot of industrial/commercial stuff in the area though, on all points of the map except south, which appears mostly residential.

[Incident_command]

I tried searching their site, but for some reason it wouldn't give it to me.

I was gonna say because its a commie paper:biggrin:

[Rhino]

Look at the evidence Rhino, Iran, Afganistan, Sudan, Somalia, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon etc. etc. Saudia Arabia, UAE, Try standing on the street corner in any of those countries and hand out free Gospel literature. If you are a Muslim there try anouncing your conversion to Christianity.So we should become like them? Sure. That will save America. And I don't need to look at evidence. I know first hand that all muslims don't support violence. In fact, I've never met one that does, and I've met quite a few.

W is the only one I've heard calling it "a great religion of peace".Listen more.

[Rhino]

I was gonna say because its a commie paper:biggrin:
I was thinking leftist resistance, pretty much the same thing.

[Lubbock]

" . . . How do we separate the radicals from the moderates if the moderates aren't going to speak up and separate themselves from the radicals? . . . "

That's why we have roughly sixteen intelligence entities who are entrusted with that problem. It's not my job or yours to separate the radicals from the moderates: when one declares himself a radical, he's pretty recognizable; when one declares himself a moderate, you can take it on faith, or look at it with a jaundiced eye. Up to you. I live by one rule in this reagrd: never trust a Muslim --over here, or over there.

That dosen't negate the fact that I know that the vast majority of them are not plotting to commit acts of terror.

I think it must be very hard on the Muslims who have been in this nation for generations and are loyal citizens, because I think a vast number of Americans now view Muslims --all Muslims, as up to no good.

I only know one that I would trust with my life, or the lives of my grandchildren. The rest are suspect.

[Gonzo67]

Stifling the free exercise of religious worship is not America. Not even close.


Normally I agree with you, but in this case, I'm on the other side Rhino.

When a religion has the established goal of eradicating all other religions and proclaiming themselves the ONLY religion allowed, that religion has no place in our society.

I agree that there should ALWAYS be freedom of religion. People should be free to worship as they choose.

The problem with this though, is that when you let the disease in, and you allow the disease to take hold, it then begins to spread. So let's protect this mosque, and tomorrow, when Muslims buy the house next to it, and converts it into another mosque, we'll protect that one too. Before you know it, every other house on the block is another mosque. Each with it's small faction of Muslims that claim they do not support the militant fanatics. But keep in mind there will also be those inside each of those mosques that DO support the fanatics.

And when their numbers are sufficient, you're going to start seeing the war waging in our own streets.

The radical Islam nuts are the cause of everything happening over there now. They have lived this way, and believed this way, through the entire span of their existence. Do you honestly believe that simply moving to a new country has changed their minds? Their beliefs? Their disregard for anyone that does NOT belong to the nation of Islam?

Not at all. They are here because this is just another unconquered country. This is just more "un-settled land" for them to spread to, and bring under the rule of their false God. Their false "religion".

I've seen PLENTY of "naturalized" Mexicans who are now America Citizens speak out about the problem with immigration. And yet they still took to the streets in support of legalizing the millions of illegals.

I have absolutely NO DOUBT in my mind or in my heart, than a good portion of those "Muslims" who speak out against the radical zealots, do so to "appease" the public. They speak out because they believe in their hearts that the nation of Islam is going to take this country anyway. So why draw attention to them?

Even with the BEST of intentions, there is no denial that the nation of Islam is repressive at the very least. Their women are treated as lesser citizens. More like "property" than people That is NOT what America is about. So we're to allow these people to come here and because THEIR beliefs are not in line with AMERICAN beliefs, the American people are expected to "make exceptions". We're expected to make allowances t "accommodate" our new "citizens".

Not this American. I don't want them here. I do not what them turning our streets into another war zone. I don't want them demanding that they should have the same rights as me, but none of the responsibilities that come with those rights. I don't want my family and friends living in fear for the next suicide bomb, and will that mosque be blown up by a fanatic while they are walking past it?

You may call me "xenophobic" if you like. But I say now is LONG PAST time to speak up and agree with the old slogan... "America for AMERICANS".

[CzechPrince]

You believe people should have the freedom in this country to worship a god who is telling those worshipers to destroy us?

I respect the right to practice any religion in this country if it does not harm other people. Islam is not such a religion.

The government has stepped in in the past where the "freedom to worship" was causing harm to others. I don't see this as being any different.

Yes.

[DoctorDoom]

Brer Rhino wrote:

People have been killed in the name of Christianity too, plenty of them, but I would never go so far as to label Christianity based on the actions of some crazed zealots.The're one fundamental difference: Christiany doesn't call for killing people. Islam does. People who kill in the name of Christ are doing so in violation of the Bible. People who kill in the name of Allah do so in obedience to the Koran.

[DoctorDoom]

A Contrast Between Mohammed and Christ

Mohammed was the prophet of war; Christ is the Prince of Peace (Isaiah 9:6-7).

Mohammed’s disciples killed for the faith; Christ’s disciples were killed for their faith (Acts 12:2; 2 Timothy 4:7).

Mohammed promoted persecution against the infidels; Christ forgave and converted the chief persecutor (1 Timothy 1:13-15).

Mohammed was the taker of life; Christ was the giver of life (John 10:27-28).

Mohammed and his fellow warriors murdered thousands; Christ murdered none but saved many (compare John 12:48).

Mohammed’s method was COMPULSION; Christ’s aim was voluntary CONVERSION (Acts 3:19).

Mohammed practiced FORCE; Christ preached FAITH (John 6:29,35).

Mohammed was a WARRIOR; Christ is a DELIVERER (Colossians 1:13; 1 Thessalonians 1:10).

Mohammed conquered his enemies with the sword; Christ conquered his enemies with another kind of sword, the sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God (Hebrews 4:12; Acts 2:37).

Mohammed said to the masses, Convert or die!; Christ said, Believe and live! (John 6:47; 11:25-26).

Mohammed was swift to shed blood (Romans 3:15-17); Christ shed His own blood for the salvation of many (Ephesians 1:7).

Mohammed preached Death to the infidels!; Christ prayed Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do (Luke 23:34).

Mohammed declared a holy war (Jihad) against infidels; Christ achieved a holy victory on Calvary’s cross (Colossians 2:14-15) and His followers’ share in that victory (John 16:33).

Mohammed constrained people by conquest; Christ constrained people by love (2 Corinthians 5:14).

Modern terrorists derive their inspiration from Mohammed and carry out their despicable atrocities in the name of his god Allah; Christians derive their inspiration from the One who said, Blessed are the peacemakers (Matthew 5:9).

Some modern day disciples of Mohammed responded to the terrorist attacks by cheering in the streets; modern day disciples of Christ are deeply grieved at past atrocities carried out by those who were Christians in name only (the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, etc.).

Many Muslims are peaceful and peace-loving because they do not strictly follow the teachings of their founder; many Christians are peaceful and peace-loving because they do strictly follow the teachings of their Founder (Romans 12:17-21).

Mohammed called upon his servants to fight; Jesus said, My kingdom is not of this world; if My kingdom were of this world, then would My servants fight . . .but now is My kingdom not from here (John 18:36)

Mohammed ordered death to the Jews (see A.Guillaume, The Life of Muhammad, Oxford University Press [1975], p. 369); Christ ordered that the gospel be preached to the Jew first (Rom. 1:16).

The Koran says, Fight in the cause of Allah (Qu’ran 2.244); the Bible says, we wrestle not against flesh and blood and the weapons of our warfare are not carnal (Ephesians 6:12; 2 Cor. 10:4).

The Koran says, Fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them (Qu’ran 9.5); Christ said, Preach the gospel to every creature (Mark 16:15).

The Koran says, I will inspire terror into the hearts of unbelievers (Qu’ran 8.12); God inspires His terror (fear, reverential awe) into the hearts of believers (Isaiah 8:13).

The Koran (Qu’ran) is a terrorist manual, which condones fighting, conflict, terror, slaughter, and genocide against those who do not accept Islam; the Bible is a missionary manual to spread the gospel of peace to all the world (Romans 10:15).

Mohammed’s Mission was to conquer the world for Allah; Christ’s mission was to conquer sin’s penalty and power by substitutionary atonement (2 Corinthians 5:21; 1 Peter 3:18).

Mohammed considered Christ a good prophet; Christ pronounced Mohammed to be a false prophet (John 10:10; Matt. 24:11).

Mohammed claimed that there was but one God, Allah; Christ claimed that He Himself was God (John 10:30-31; John 8:58-59; John 5:18; John 14:9).

Mohammed’s Tomb: OCCUPIED! Christ’s tomb: EMPTY!

[cerberus]

Jeez Rhino, you took virtually every word out of my mouth with your posts on this one. 100% right on. I knew there was a reason you were my favorite FC poster. :thumb:

[True Grace]

Jeez Rhino, you took virtually every word out of my mouth with your posts on this one. 100% right on. I knew there was a reason you were my favorite FC poster. :thumb:

Someone remind me to slit my wrists if a liberal ever tells me I'm his favorite poster.

[DeclinetoState]

<TABLE id=HB_Mail_Container height="100%" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0 UNSELECTABLE="on"><TBODY><TR height="100%" width="100%" UNSELECTABLE="on"><TD id=HB_Focus_Element vAlign=top width="100%" background="" height=250 UNSELECTABLE="off">Mohammed considered Christ a good prophet; Christ pronounced Mohammed to be a false prophet (John 10:10; Matt. 24:11).
So . . . was Mohammed being a false prophet when he considered Christ a good prophet?

:confused:
</TD></TR><TR UNSELECTABLE="on" hb_tag="1"><TD style="FONT-SIZE: 1pt" height=1 UNSELECTABLE="on">
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[Gonzo67]

So . . . was Mohammed being a false prophet when he considered Christ a good prophet?


"You can't ask both of us, you can only ask one of us. And I must warn you, one of us always tells the truth, and one of us always lies."

;)

[True Grace]

So . . . was Mohammed being a false prophet when he considered Christ a good prophet?

:confused:


I think the point was that Mohommed denied the Lordship of Jesus Christ in declaring Him merely a "good prophet".

[Longhorn_Platinum]

DeclinetoState:
So . . . was Mohammed being a false prophet when he considered Christ a good prophet?

:question: So, were the demons true prophets, when they recognized that Jesus was the Son of God?

[Wolfcounsel]

All of you out there who wish to live peaceably with the Muslims, go right ahead. They will see only the Arabic word for INFIDEL tattooed on your foreheads when their "mullahs" order them to slit your throats.

[Rhino]

The're one fundamental difference: Christiany doesn't call for killing people. Islam does.Actually that's not a difference at all. Radicals in both faiths have killed, supposedly in the name of the faith.

People who kill in the name of Christ are doing so in violation of the Bible. People who kill in the name of Allah do so in obedience to the Koran.The people who kill in the name of Christ don't think they're in violation of the Bible, just as the people who kill in the name of Allah don't think they're in violation of the Koran. There are radicals in all faiths, but it's too simplistic to just assume that everyone of that faith thinks that way. You'd be very pissed, and rightly so, if someone stereotyped all Christians in the mold of some of the white supremacists, but you feel quite comfortable doing exactly the same thing to Muslims. Considering all of the Muslim terrorist attacks against us, it's a very understandable emotion, but emotion is not fact. I've personally known Muslims, and I know for a fact that they don't all think that way, nor do they think the Koran excuses terrorism.

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[cerberus]

Someone remind me to slit my wrists if a liberal ever tells me I'm his favorite poster. Is that all it takes? Fine. You're my favorite poster. It's the intolerance and bigotry, I can't get enough. Now what was I supposed to remind you? :evilgrin:

[Wolfcounsel]

"The people who kill in the name of Christ don't think they're in violation of the Bible, just as the people who kill in the name of Allah don't think they're in violation of the Koran." --Rhino

Whatever the radicals think they are doing, the Bible is against killing the infidel, while the Koran is for killing all infidels.

Okay. let's hear the shouts from the peanut gallery about all the atrocities committed in the name of Christianity. You know you wanna.:evilgrin:

[Rhino]

Too many peanuts here already. Besides, you already know about them.

[Rink]

Actually that's not a difference at all. Radicals in both faiths have killed, supposedly in the name of the faith.

The people who kill in the name of Christ don't think they're in violation of the Bible, just as the people who kill in the name of Allah don't think they're in violation of the Koran. There are radicals in all faiths, but it's too simplistic to just assume that everyone of that faith thinks that way. You'd be very pissed, and rightly so, if someone stereotyped all Christians in the mold of some of the white supremacists, but you feel quite comfortable doing exactly the same thing to Muslims. Considering all of the Muslim terrorist attacks against us, it's a very understandable emotion, but emotion is not fact. I've personally known Muslims, and I know for a fact that they don't all think that way, nor do they think the Koran excuses terrorism.

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Actually Rhino I think I understand what Doc is getting at.

Mohammed called straight from the start for the killing of his 'enemies' whereas Christ did the opposite, Christ prayed for them and asked God not to hold it against them because they knew not what they were doing, right to the point of his death.

THAT's the big basic difference.

Christ stood for life, forgiveness, salvation, whereas Mohammed asked for killing any who refused to go their way, cursed his enemies and salvation was a ritual to be had or payed for either in money or in blood.

[Rhino]

He was speaking in the present tense, so I answered that way.

[True Grace]

Is that all it takes? Fine. You're my favorite poster. It's the intolerance and bigotry, I can't get enough. Now what was I supposed to remind you? :evilgrin:

Gee, how....intolerant.

You're going to regret your intolerance of bigots when that elusive bigot gene is found.

[DeclinetoState]

:question: So, were the demons true prophets, when they recognized that Jesus was the Son of God?
If x says y is good, but y says x is false, well, we've got a little paradox here.

(Sorry for the big blank space. My machinery is acting strange since it was "fixed" . . .)

[Rhino]

Strange. I use IE and it doesn't do that.

I fixed it, by the way.

[DeclinetoState]

Oops. I tried to fix it and made things worse. Damn! :(

[Rhino]

Oops. I tried to fix it and made things worse. Damn! :(
Stop that! LOL!

Fixed again. It isn't your machinery. Your software is putting tables in somehow. Are you clicking the "Quote" link, or are you highlighting, copying and pasting? If it's the latter, then that's your problem. Just use the "Quote" link.

[Rhino]

I just noticed it did the same thing in your last post that did not include any quote, so something in your software or methodology is trying to create tables.

[Timberwolf]

The stifling of the free exercise of religious worship can only be accomplished by the ACLU against White Christians, but that's a subject for another thred, another day.
Agreed.

Let me ask the questions again: can the blacks point to any specific crime or crime statistic that the Muslims in the community are responsible for? I suspect not.
Cite what is clearly written in their holy texts...that muslims are directed to "meld" into society (communities) until they have such numbers that they can overtake those societies/communities. They are directed to conquer from within...sounds illegal to me. Even if it isn't, it needs to be stopped, NOW. Cite for me ANY other religion that directs its adherents to behave in such manner and I'll retract this statement.

And yes, the irony of this is almost more than my tiny little mind can grasp.
Doesn't seem so ironic anymore, does it?

And God knows, I'm not defending Muslims. I wish the first one had never crossed our shores many, many moons ago. I know Islam --as it's being practiced in many Mosques by many Muslims in this nation is a gutter religion and a death cult, but so is Satanism or Wiccan or what ever the devil worshipers call it, but I believe it is a "recognized" religion. Just one of the many threads in the American Fabric.
I don't believe that even satanists and/or wiccans preach the overthrow of the government.

[Lubbock]

That's very true, Twolf, and I don't know what the answer to it is, unless we Good American Citizens, standing for Truth, Justice and the American Way, start forming vigilante partys, ala the KKK, and begin systematically storming the Mosques, slashing the worshipers throats, and burning the Mosques to the ground.

Extreme?

Yeah, I think so.

So what's to do?

Nothing, other than to just sit back and wait.

I have to believe that our domestic intelligence agencies are as on top of things as the Democrats and the New York Times will allow them to be.

[Timberwolf]

The silence is largely due to the media. You can do a Google search and find multiple instances of muslims speaking out against the violence.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=muslim+leaders+denounce+terrorism

Considering the contempt they get when they speak publicly, I can't say I'm surprised that more aren't doing it. But just because there are radical muslims out there, it's patently unfair to label them all as such. People have been killed in the name of Christianity too, plenty of them, but I would never go so far as to label Christianity based on the actions of some crazed zealots. I simply extend that same consideration to muslims, because I know for a fact that many are quite peaceful.
You mean something like the following?
http://almusawwir.org/progressivemuslims/?p=32
“Anyone who claims to be a Muslim and participates in any way in the taking of innocent life is betraying the very spirit and letter of Islam,” said the statement, which was read by Imam Ahmad Kutty of the Islamic Institute of Toronto after midday prayers at a mosque.
Notice "taking innocent life"...that doesn't apply to people like you and me, Rhino. That is a phrase reserved ONLY for muzzies. Therefore, we are being told what we want to hear by those who want us dead...and they're not even lying about it. To them innocent life IS sacred...problem is, WE include all nationalities/skin colors/religions with the phrase "innocent life". They include only themselves. Remember, those who comprise the non-muzzie world are "infidels" and as such, are not innocent.

[Timberwolf]

And I agree with that 100%, Rhino.

That's like Phelps calling himself a "Baptist".
Yup...BUT, the rest of the "Baptist World" shuns him, his "theology" and his church. He has been disowned. When he shows up, Christians speak out against him...EVERYWHERE.

[Lubbock]

That's right. Phelps is shunned and drummed out of "polite society".

I made an observation a few days ago here in this forum concerning "moderate Muslims" not taking a vocal and visible stand against "militant Muslims", and got slapped down for it.

I can understand why Muslims in Islamic countries won't stand up and speak out against terrorism, but I can't understand why the ones here won't.

We should be seeing Muslims speaking out daily against terrorism and the Muslims who commit terrorism. They aren't. That's why I say, never trust one. Over here, or over there. Until I see something different that what I've seen so far, they are all terrorists as far as I'm concerned. AS far as I'm concerned, their silence speaks loudly and clearly: they support terrorism.

That dosen't mean that I subscribe to burning all of the Mosques to the ground. Not yet. Not until the next attack comes. As I said, when that happens, all bets are off.

[Timberwolf]

Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by DoctorDoom
The're one fundamental difference: Christiany doesn't call for killing people. Islam does.
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Actually that's not a difference at all. Radicals in both faiths have killed, supposedly in the name of the faith.
Rhino, you're not listening...Christians are NOT called to kill those who will not worship God. To do so is UNBIBLICAL. Conversely, muzzies ARE to kill those who will not bow down to allah. To NOT do so goes against the qu'ran.

Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">People who kill in the name of Christ are doing so in violation of the Bible. People who kill in the name of Allah do so in obedience to the Koran. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
The people who kill in the name of Christ don't think they're in violation of the Bible, just as the people who kill in the name of Allah don't think they're in violation of the Koran.
Those who kill in the name of Christ are WRONG...those who kill in the name of allah AREN'T.

There are radicals in all faiths, but it's too simplistic to just assume that everyone of that faith thinks that way.
Peaceful muzzies are apostate. Peaceful Christians are faithful.

You'd be very pissed, and rightly so, if someone stereotyped all Christians in the mold of some of the white supremacists, but you feel quite comfortable doing exactly the same thing to Muslims.
You've apparently not read the qu'ran. It is NOT a "book of peace". How many Christians don't denounce the white supremacists?

That's the difference, Rhino. NORMAL Christians are peaceful, loving, patient, and generous. It is the extremists who bastardize our Scriptures who act as you've stated. NORMAL muzzies ARE those who behead "infidels", strap bombs on themselves, and want to destroy an entire race for no reason.

Considering all of the Muslim terrorist attacks against us, it's a very understandable emotion, but emotion is not fact. I've personally known Muslims, and I know for a fact that they don't all think that way, nor do they think the Koran excuses terrorism.

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Those muslims are not following their scriptures. It is akin to Phelps' claim that "God hates fags". Nothing could be further from the truth.

The qu'ran excuses terrorism against all who are not muslim. "Innocent" does not apply to Americans, Christians, and/or Jews. Nor does it apply to French, Russian, Chinese, buddhist, hindu, etc.

[Timberwolf]

That's very true, Twolf, and I don't know what the answer to it is, unless we Good American Citizens, standing for Truth, Justice and the American Way, start forming vigilante partys, ala the KKK, and begin systematically storming the Mosques, slashing the worshipers throats, and burning the Mosques to the ground.

Extreme?

Yeah, I think so.

So what's to do?

Nothing, other than to just sit back and wait.

I have to believe that our domestic intelligence agencies are as on top of things as the Democrats and the New York Times will allow them to be.
We could start by sending them back home...nip the problem in the bud. It is clearly written that when they exist is large enough numbers, they are to overthrow the government and institute sharia law.

[Longhorn_Platinum]

cerberus:
It's the intolerance and bigotry, I can't get enough.

:moo: Then, go to FSTDT.

[Longhorn_Platinum]

DeclinetoState:
If x says y is good, but y says x is false, well, we've got a little paradox here.

:unsmile: No, it just means that y is bad, & x is an idiot. But, I don't see what that has to do with what I asked.

[Lubbock]

" . . . We could start by sending them back home . . . "

What do we do with the ones who are citizens?

[Timberwolf]

WHEN they act up, send them back to their country of origin, too.

[ConspiracyBuff]

So are you guys scared or something? I'm not.

If your scared, leave the light on.....no I'm not talking Light bulbs.

[Rhino]

They are directed to conquer from within...sounds illegal to me. Even if it isn't, it needs to be stopped, NOW. Cite for me ANY other religion that directs its adherents to behave in such manner and I'll retract this statement.
Jehovah's Witnesses? :evilgrin:

[Rhino]

Rhino, you're not listening...Christians are NOT called to kill those who will not worship God. To do so is UNBIBLICAL. Conversely, muzzies ARE to kill those who will not bow down to allah. To NOT do so goes against the qu'ran.I think it's you that is not listening. Not all muslims think that way, just as not all Christians do.

Those who kill in the name of Christ are WRONG...those who kill in the name of allah AREN'T.Those who kill in the name of Christ don't think they're wrong, just as those who kill in the name of Allah don't. Luckily, not all Christians or Muslims think that way.

Peaceful muzzies are apostate. Peaceful Christians are faithful.Now you sound just like the radical Muslims.

You've apparently not read the qu'ran. It is NOT a "book of peace".I've read parts of it. I've also read differing interpretations of it, just as I have with the Bible.

How many Christians don't denounce the white supremacists?Unfortunately, more than I'd like. And if you think the white supremacists are so bad, why are you engaging in exactly the same type of hate toward Muslims?

That's the difference, Rhino. NORMAL Christians are peaceful, loving, patient, and generous. It is the extremists who bastardize our Scriptures who act as you've stated. NORMAL muzzies ARE those who behead "infidels", strap bombs on themselves, and want to destroy an entire race for no reason.I don't define the minority as 'normal'. You're free to do so if you wish.

Those muslims are not following their scriptures. It is akin to Phelps' claim that "God hates fags". Nothing could be further from the truth.According to them, they are following their scriptures. I'm sure they'd really welcome you to come and lecture them on what their scriptures say, you being such an expert and all. How would you feel if one of them came by to preach to you how you aren't following the Bible correctly?

The qu'ran excuses terrorism against all who are not muslim. "Innocent" does not apply to Americans, Christians, and/or Jews. Nor does it apply to French, Russian, Chinese, buddhist, hindu, etc.In your opinion, which I obviously disagree with, as do most Muslims.

I get that you hate Muslims, TW. I'm just not that bigoted, and I don't care to be. Until the day comes that all Muslims act as you seem to think they do, I'll just stick with the concept of religious freedom. It's a concept I hold dear.

[Timberwolf]

Rhino...why is it that nearly ALL terrorist acts are perpetuated by muslims? Do you hear of Christians, Hindus, Bhuddists, JWs, Mormons, atheists or agnostics behaving like that? If you do, share it with the rest of us.

I do not hate muslims, I despise their religion and their behavior. Just as I do not hate homosexuals, I despise their BEHAVIOR. I don't hate drug addicts, I despise their behavior. I don't hate liberals, I despise their religion and their behavior.

Are you sensing a pattern yet? I don't hate ANYONE.

I do see, though, that you seem to be purposefully mischaracterizing Christians and muslims. READ both the Bible and the qu'ran and you will see that peaceful muslims are apostate as are Christians who are violent (do not read anything concerning self-defense into that, either).

In islam, one is either one of the blessed or an infidel. The former gets to live...the latter doesn't (unless one pays an exhorbitant tax for the "privilege" of living).

[Wyatt_Junker]

I think it's you that is not listening. Not all muslims think that way, just as not all Christians do.

Which is irrelevant to the point I've previously made, although I can't speak for TW's assertions.

The word 'all' does not belong in this conversation. If I was looking for 100% uniformity, I would be a fool. I am not. I am looking for the 'by and larges', the significant social trends in any culture, the critical mass, the stereotypes and beefy percentages of opinion in islamic thought. It does not require lockstep uniformity. Maybe only 10%, which is enough.

10% is the number most analysts have used in the past regarding virulent islam. Where do they get it? I don't know. I actually think its a kind number. You can do the math if you like, but an evil tithe on 1.3 billion muslims is very significant. Actually the whahhabists are not alone and that's where the 10% number is derived. You can also add in Sunnis, Shiites and Hashemites as well, ballooning the figure well beyond its original scope. The only ones I wouldn't put in that classification are Sufis(rare), most Morrocans by and large, Kurds, American and Brit muslims(not French) and perhaps a smattering of those in Turkey(although that is changing).

And since we are not dealing strictly with whahhabism, but with other elements of islam that have gained traction within the mainstream vision of islam, I would venture a guess that 10% is much too gentle. And we're still talking about radical islam, the kind that not only cheers when Americans die, but supports those responsible for it. I won't even get into the infiltration of the 5th column into free societies which could swoon the percentages of virulent islam to only God knows. Nor will I add to the numbers of those who committ terror those who support islamofascism through the sins of ommission. If I did sum those groups together (commission and ommission) as one, we would see oursevles in a fight not with terrorists but actual nations with definable borders. All one has to do to verify that is surf LGF (http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/weblog.php) for a week to see the endless muslim polls in various countries that support 'soft' targets (aka terrorism) and all the lovely tactics in-between from kidnappings to beheadings.


Those who kill in the name of Christ don't think they're wrong, just as those who kill in the name of Allah don't. Luckily, not all Christians or Muslims think that way.

Funny, I can't remember the last time I jousted a knight. I thought Mideval Times was merely a restaurant that served bad food. I didn't think it still had actual legitimacy. We are in the 21st Century, are we not?

Again, we must run our conversation through the 'by and large' filter, using percentages. Are Christians by and large killing in the name of Christ in today's global contemporary culture? Are they even doing this exceptionally in the smallest percentages?

Are muslims?

Let's be honest here for a minute. Are muslims involved in an organized attempt to destabilize Southern Russia, upper and middle Africa, the Phillipines, Thailand, India, Israel, South America, interior France and to a lesser extent even Britain and the United States? Is Islam trying to colonize in any of these areas? And, if so, how do they go about it? Peacefully, BY AND LARGE, or via force?

Now, are Christians doing this?

Not to be demeaning in any way, but here's a wonderful stereotype that I'd like for you to memorize.

By and large...

Christians conquer souls.

Muslims conquer humans.

You can fathom the ramifications of what that means in all its various aspects for yourself. And this is not dumb bigotry. Its well informed bigotry that loves freedom and values human life.


Now you sound just like the radical Muslims.


I know this was intended for TW, but I'm trying to defend his 'larger' argument that perhaps he was unable to articulate.



Unfortunately, more than I'd like. And if you think the white supremacists are so bad, why are you engaging in exactly the same type of hate toward Muslims?

The better question is why is a large, unignorable percentage of Islam not only involved but actively engaged in rabid rhetoric that is used to support civ death to justify its cause?


I don't define the minority as 'normal'. You're free to do so if you wish.


And the 'minority' to which you refer is still a very significant number. Far, far, far larger than any whacky Christian fringe group. Again, let's deal in realistic stereotypes that have historical value and are backed up by polls and global war/terror zones. Islam has a modern day portfolio. Christianity does not.


According to them, they are following their scriptures. I'm sure they'd really welcome you to come and lecture them on what their scriptures say, you being such an expert and all. How would you feel if one of them came by to preach to you how you aren't following the Bible correctly?


Not to sound arrogant here, but I would be fully confident in my ability to lecture them on their scriptures. If they chose to cross swords with my understanding of the Bible, I am also more than confident in my ability to own them outright. I've simply studied both extensively enough to be certain in the reliability of my understanding.


In your opinion, which I obviously disagree with, as do most Muslims.

I understand your motive. Its coming from a good place. You feel you are trying to correct ignorance.

But, again, let's say the problem isn't with 'most' muslims. Let's say there is a problem with 49% of the muslims and that they compose a very legitimate threat. 49% is not 'most' muslims, but it is a significant threshold, a critical mass, a cancer, a limb that must be cut off from the body of global mankind. And here's the problem. If the militant, virulent ideology of islam is even much smaller than that, say 10 - 15 %, it still means we have to smash nations head-on in order to eradicate that cancer in the same way that chemo smashes the body in order to save it. Civs will die and collateral damage will occur no matter how smart our future weapons capabilities are. The 85% to 90% of the islamic population failed to convince its radicals that its abusive rhetoric was out of line. And by doing so, they too, will suffer the fate of all. In that sense even the muslims outside of that seething 10% - 15% range of radicals are, to a certain extent, BY AND LARGE, directly responsible not only for the image they portray of islam but the way the world community chooses to correct it.


I get that you hate Muslims, TW. I'm just not that bigoted, and I don't care to be. Until the day comes that all Muslims act as you seem to think they do, I'll just stick with the concept of religious freedom. It's a concept I hold dear.

I don't think TW hates muslims. Neither do I. As a Christian I know that our war is against principalities and powers in high places of invisible origin, but I also know that in this very non-spiritual world of 3 dimensions, I must protect small children and women who did not ask to be born into an enslaved, theocratic world of abuse. In that sense I do hate islam, very much.

I hope that helps.

[Lubbock]

In all the years that we were in Pakistan, we operated and socialized in the Muslim culture. My mother, who was a very Christian woman, always said one thing about Muslims: "Muslims are a warring people. They make war against one another, and they make war against those who do not believe as they believe".

Mother spoke those words forty years ago, and she spoke the same words many times over the years after we were back stateside.

[Timberwolf]

Wyatt, thank you for expanding upon my point(s).

In all the years that we were in Pakistan, we operated and socialized in the Muslim culture. My mother, who was a very Christian woman, always said one thing about Muslims: "Muslims are a warring people. They make war against one another, and they make war against those who do not believe as they believe".

Mother spoke those words forty years ago, and she spoke the same words many times over the years after we were back stateside.
I have spoken with Hindus who grew up in Bombay and Calcutta, Bhuddists who grew up in Pakistan and Tibet, and some others who GREW UP in that region (India, Pakistan, Iran, Iraq, etc) and have been informed by everyone of them, "muslims are the most violent people on the planet". Lubbock, your mother's words are supported by others, of differing backgrounds, who have witnessed "islam in action".

[DeclinetoState]

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{Butt, butt, butt is what goats do . . . and Zizou Zidane. Hmmm.}
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[Rhino]

Rhino...why is it that nearly ALL terrorist acts are perpetuated by muslims?
Nearly all acts of pedophelia are committed by men, but that doesn't make all men pedophiles. That's been my main point all along. One can't simply take the acts and sentiments of a few and automatically project them on the whole. Not only is it unfair, it isn't logical (live long and prosper).

Maybe 'hate' was too strong a word here, but some people do make it sound that way sometimes.

Wyatt, you support my point very well. Even if the 10% figure is doubled, it shows that not all Muslims feel that way. I abhor the violent ones just as much as anyone else. I just find it unfair that those attitudes are projected by some towards Muslims who are not violent. And plenty of people have killed in the name of Christianity since the middle ages.

I'd like to see that debate if you ever get it arranged. I'd likely find it very interesting. Obviously, not everyone interprets the Koran the same way, including Muslims.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2001/09/15/koran.htm
http://www.indi.ca/2005/06/koran-and-violence/
http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/special_packages/sunday_review/12376792.htm

I'm not saying I agree or disagree with all of that, but it's obvious that the verses in the Koran are interpreted differently by different people, even amongst Muslims, and it's readily apparent that very many Muslims do not support terrorism or violent acts. As such, it's unfair to characterize them all as terrorists or terrorists in waiting. It simply isn't true, and they shouldn't be harassed or intimidated based on that mistaken assumption.

[Wyatt_Junker]

You're absolutely right. Look at these communiques from the Lebanese people imploring us to take down Hezbollah.



24. A message to the IDF

Please free our beloved tortured country from these crazed mullah-followers. Free our land from these bloody syrian and iranian agents. we want to live in peace.

Please take caution to focus your attack where they are and not attack christian areas. we support you and bear you no ill will.
May god bless you.

Lebanese christian, Damour area (07.14.06)

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3275366,00.html


22. Please no more empty words

I beg of Israel not to back off!!!!!!

Please ignore the world and really go after hizbalah.
hizbalah is a foreign iranian/syrian implant in our beloved lebanon.

wipe them out , kill their leaders one by one. we want to live in peace with civilized nations.

Thank you

farid of lebanon (07.14.06)


http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3275338,00.html


7. Israel go ahead
7. Israel go ahead

I’m lebanese Christian from beirut, i hope Israel can reach hezbolla in their bed and kills them, and also let Israel strike the syrian president,, I wish this strike will finish soon,, with less civilian,, we are in the Christian area of beirut feeling happy about the strike, but psychologically we are affected,,everybody hates hezbolla here,,
I hope this will finish
nadim, lebanon (07.14.06)
I’m lebanese Christian from beirut, i hope Israel can reach hezbolla in their bed and kills them, and also let Israel strike the syrian president,, I wish this strike will finish soon,, with less civilian,, we are in the Christian area of beirut feeling happy about the strike, but psychologically we are affected,,everybody hates hezbolla here,,
I hope this will finish
nadim, lebanon (07.14.06)


http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3274939,00.html


13. lebanese

to the person who said that palestinian and lebanese are one people well ur so damn wrong we are not like the palestinien and we do not want to fight their war, we only want out country we want peace and we want to get over with hizbulla, hopefully soon, so don’t link the lebanese to any of the arab world peope caus they are a bunch of f-cked up people

elie, lebanon (07.13.06)


What's interesting here is that these people want us to smack down the mullahs, are BEGGING us to do whatever it TAKES, and at the same time our media wants just the opposite.

And here, while they would like us to minimize civ casualties, they would rather have that than the enslavement of the status quo.

[Gonzo67]

That dosen't mean that I subscribe to burning all of the Mosques to the ground. Not yet. Not until the next attack comes. As I said, when that happens, all bets are off.


Not me, I refuse to wait for the next attack. I say burn them all out now. Why wait for more people to die?

I'd rather be thought of as a Living Bigot than a "dead - but tolerant person".