Homeowner Kills Armed Intruder

[DeclinetoState]

Jose Bercian told investigators that he came out of his room and found an unknown male inside his home. Bercian retreated into his bedroom and retrieved a firearm. When he confronted the stranger with the firearm, the intruder produced his own firearm and shot at Bercian but missed. Bercian told police that he returned fire, striking and killing the offender.11Alive.com (http://www.11alive.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=83375)

Let's see, how many dumb things were done here?

1. Intruder breaks into someone else's home.

2. After being discovered, intruder sticks around while homeowner goes to get his gun.

3. Intruder fires at homeowner.

4. Intruder misses.

Darwin Award?

[Wolfcounsel]

The Darwin Award should not be given to cretins who have innocent people in their sights while attempting something that can render them dead.

I call this simply the trash taken out.:claps:

[Big Coffee]

The Darwin Award should not be given to cretins who have innocent people in their sights while attempting something that can render them dead.

I call this simply the trash taken out.:claps:

Concur. Darwins are given only to persons who think of creative ways of ending their own gene pool. This idiot needed the help of someone intelligent to terminate his sad life.

Its too bad really... that MORE idiots are not terminated so efficiently. :D

[uncommon1]

I wonder if the homeowner gets to keep the criminal's gun as a souvenir?

[Gonzo67]

I know this is "rather gruesome", but I think it should be legal for the home owner to demand and be given the criminal's head, stuffed and mounted on a suitable oak or mahogany plaque, which can then be displayed proudly in the home owners trophy room.

Having no kids, I can assure you, I would have no problem displaying such a "trophy".

[Wolfcounsel]

"Having no kids, I can assure you, I would have no problem displaying such a "trophy"." --Gonzo67

I'd settle for a red stamp to put on the outside of my front door, along with the sign that reads NEVER MIND THE DOG. BEWARE OF OWNER.:evilgrin: <!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

[Prayerrist]

Gonzo67 wrote:
I know this is "rather gruesome", but I think it should be legal for the home owner to demand and be given the criminal's head, stuffed and mounted on a suitable oak or mahogany plaque, which can then be displayed proudly in the home owners trophy room.



Agreed, but I'd have the intruder full-body stuffed, what's left of him at least. My .50 magnums would make short work of him and make quite a mess.

[LightHorseman]

Agreed, but I'd have the intruder full-body stuffed, what's left of him at least. My .50 magnums would make short work of him and make quite a mess.

Serious question... "turn the other cheek" only applies outside of your own home?

Don't get me wrong, I'm armed and would defend my home and family... but you're the one with "born again Christian" as your signature, and I'm just curious as to how you think blowing someone away for robbing you is a born again trait?

[Prayerrist]

My home is my castle. An intruder is in violation of my castle, and in violation of God. Therefore he will be dealt with in an appropriate matter. It's no-holds-barred from that point on, and I'll come out with guns a-blazin! If the bullets don't kill him first, the powder burns will. I don't just keep loaded guns in the bedroom, you know. I have them strategically placed throughout the house for ANY time I might need them to protect my wife & children.

[LightHorseman]

Yes, I get that you have a hard on for the violence aspect... how do you reconcile that with the "turn the other cheek", "give him your coat as well", parts of scripture?

Self defence and defence of loved ones, fair enough. What about an unarmed intruder just there for the VCR? Does he get high speed lead poisoning too?

[Timberwolf]

Um....LHM, "context is everything"...Matthew, chapter 6:
<SUP>40</SUP> And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
<SUP>41</SUP> And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
<SUP>42</SUP> Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
Doesn't say one cannot defend one's self against a criminal breaking into one's home. The CONTEXT is if one is taken to court and sued. It furthermore is dealing with the needy, not a burglar.

I still agree with you about the proper use of force, only taking issue with Scriptural context.

[LightHorseman]

Well, with scriptural context aforethought... how about "turn the other cheek"? From memory, thats a direct instruction from Christ that if someone does you violence, to turn the other cheek so he can hit that one too.

Personally, I'd do violence to someone in self defence or defence of others... indeed, I have! But I'm not the one claiming to be born again, and I can certainly tell you that having killed before, I have absolutely no desire to do so again. If the need arises, then sure. But its not something to get excited about.

[Wolfcounsel]

"Yes, I get that you have a hard on for the violence aspect... how do you reconcile that with the "turn the other cheek", "give him your coat as well", parts of scripture?

Self defence and defence of loved ones, fair enough. What about an unarmed intruder just there for the VCR? Does he get high speed lead poisoning too?" --LightHorseman, to Prayerrist

You wake up to an intruder in your house stealing the VCR. How in the name of Zeus's butthole do you know that he is not using it as a way to draw something else out of you? The asshole does not belong in your house, and I don't give a rat's ass if his family of 12 children is starving to death either. If you have the means, plant as much lead as you can in him to neutralize him, re-load, and clear the rest of the house. In the meantime, the police can be called. Dial the number and leave the phone on. The dispatcher will get the message.

[LightHorseman]

Wolf, like I say, I would use force to defend myself or loved ones. However,
a: I am not a self proclaimed born again Christian, and I am interested how he can reconcile this apparent difference between his Christian POV and his Wanna be Billy the Kid-ism.
b. Is there anything wrong with instructing the intruder "Halt, hands up!"
Even in the Army we do that to bad guys... and we KNOW they are armed and intend to kill... but we still give them a chance where possible.

So, if the intruder THEN turns around and makes a hostile motion towards you, by all means, give him a third eye. BUt I don't really think the death penalty is applicable to some guy stealing a $400 home appliance, do you?

[Wolfcounsel]

"b. Is there anything wrong with instructing the intruder "Halt, hands up!"
Even in the Army we do that to bad guys... and we KNOW they are armed and intend to kill... but we still give them a chance where possible.

So, if the intruder THEN turns around and makes a hostile motion towards you, by all means, give him a third eye. BUt I don't really think the death penalty is applicable to some guy stealing a $400 home appliance, do you?" --LightHorseman

You sneak up as quietly as a mouse on the intruder and shoot him, in the back, if that's what part he presents. As for the Army, I am not concerned with the rules of engagement. I will kill or be killed. Again, never mind the VCR. It could well turn out to be a ploy, and you may wind up burying your loved ones later if you survive.

The NUMBER ONE question--

Does the intruder have the right to enter your home uninvited? The question applies to both Christian and otherwise.<!-- / message -->

[LightHorseman]

You sneak up as quietly as a mouse on the intruder and shoot him, in the back, if that's what part he presents

Most places, thats murder.

Does the intruder have the right to enter your home uninvited? The question applies to both Christian and otherwise.

Of course he doesn't. But do you have the right to execute someone for break and entry? I mean you havn't even determined if the guy is armed!
So, you shoot the intruder in the back, only to find out its your teenager sneaking back into the house after a big night out, or some teenager who wanted to steal a few CDs and maybe some cash...

They're actions can't necesarily be justified, but neither can shooting first and asking questions later, unless you are in CLEAR and OBVIOUS danger...

Whats wrong with "hands up! turn around, and sudden movements and I shoot"... Then sure, pout a round in him if he does anything but impersonate a statue, by all means. But the idea of shooting someone just for breaking in? If you had stayed in your bedroom, he wouldn't have bothered you, he just wants the VCR... Aren't you insured?

As I have said a few other places now, taking a life, while occasionally necesary, should NEVER be trivialised.

Besides, if you take him alive, you avoid that whole murder trial thing and get proclaimed a hero. Doesn;t that sound better than 5 seconds of testosterone chest beating followed by a lifetime of regret?

[Gonzo67]

Well, LightHorsesass originally intended to just nit-pick because the phrase "born again" was in the sig of someone that spoke of acting in a violent nature. He's not actually interested in the legalities or the morals of the issue. His only interest is most likely to stir up shit for shits sake, perhaps hoping to get another quote to go fluttering off to FISTED with.

So LightHorsesass, troll away. You're obviously better than the rest of us. So, when I decide to finally give up on the country I served to preserve, and I decide to turn to a life of crime, living off the suffering of others, taking what doesn't belong to me, and violating the rights of everyone else without compassion or remorse, I'll be sure to break into YOUR house to steal your shit. Considering the fact that I know that you'll "ask me politely" not to take your things, and probably fix me a ham sandwich on my way out.

Personally, I don't give a shit if you come into my house armed with only a friggin popsicle stick. If you are there, uninvited, illegally, I'll put a bullet into every single part of your body I can find. And once you're on the ground, if you have no weapon, I promise the police will find one in your hand.

Now, this may be "ok" because I am not a "Christian", but I do believe in God, I do believe in Jesus, and I am more "spiritual" that you would probably ever be able to imagine based on my posts. So does this make me a hypocrite? Perhaps. But I never claimed NOT to be one. The plain and simple truth of the matter is, my "gospel" is my own. Trespass against me, I'll break your ass. Simple, direct, and I'll always be honest and up front about it. And I can honestly say, I've never been screwed over twice by the same person.

[Wolfcounsel]

"But do you have the right to execute someone for break and entry? I mean you havn't even determined if the guy is armed!
So, you shoot the intruder in the back, only to find out its your teenager sneaking back into the house after a big night out, or some teenager who wanted to steal a few CDs and maybe some cash..." --LightHorseman

Yes, I have the right to take out the trash in my home. I am not going to bet my life against his that he is unarmed. And this thing about me finding out it's my teenaged son sneaking back into the house, I always told my sons be home by a certain time, or knock and I'll let you in, and counseling would follow in the morning. Besides, there are ways to get a reaction out of the stranger besides, yelling "Halt! Who are you?" or somethinhg just as silly. Throw something that will make lots of noise when it lands. He will shoot, or, if he is a well-disciplined intruder, he will dive for cover or surrender. All those things are not necessary for him to do before I will shoot.

To all would be intruders out there--

Everything in my house, including my dog's chewed up tennis balls, are worth MORE than your lives! Come in peace or be carried out in pieces. You want to find out which house will be your death house?

[Wolfcounsel]

Posted twice?

[Timberwolf]

Well, with scriptural context aforethought... how about "turn the other cheek"? From memory, thats a direct instruction from Christ that if someone does you violence, to turn the other cheek so he can hit that one too.
Yes, and contextually it WAS a form of publicly humiliating the one doing the striking. "Turning the other cheek" was to say, "you don't matter enough for me to respond."

At least, that's the way it's been explained to me. Makes sense, though. Meekness doesn't mean weakness. Christ was meek, yet quite powerful.

Personally, I'd do violence to someone in self defence or defence of others... indeed, I have! But I'm not the one claiming to be born again, and I can certainly tell you that having killed before, I have absolutely no desire to do so again. If the need arises, then sure. But its not something to get excited about.
Hmmm...coulda swore you claimed to be Christian in your beliefs. My mistake...but, I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment that taking a life is nothing to get excited about nor something anyone should desire to do.

[LightHorseman]

Hmmm...coulda swore you claimed to be Christian in your beliefs.

I am Christian, but do not identify as born again. I'm very aware that my Christian side needs constant work and attention, so I don't feel I have any real right to wear my Christianity as a badge, as others do. If my signature line said anything about being a Christian, and then I posted something that seemd to contradict those beliefs, then I would expect to be called on it. Does that help?

Yes, and contextually it WAS a form of publicly humiliating the one doing the striking. "Turning the other cheek" was to say, "you don't matter enough for me to respond."

It was explained to me that you turn the other cheek to your attacker, so he might strike that one too. Apparently we have different interpretations going for this passage.

[Lubbock]

Oh, for Pete's sake!

Why anyone wastes bandwidth on this Anti-Christian Liberal Asswart is beyond me.

[LightHorseman]

Oh, for Pete's sake!

Why anyone wastes bandwidth on this Anti-Christian Liberal Asswart is beyond me.


Who are you talking about?

[Timberwolf]

I am Christian, but do not identify as born again. I'm very aware that my Christian side needs constant work and attention, so I don't feel I have any real right to wear my Christianity as a badge, as others do. If my signature line said anything about being a Christian, and then I posted something that seemd to contradict those beliefs, then I would expect to be called on it. Does that help?
Actually, no it doesn't. Please don't take this as an attack upon your person, but it seems to me that you're ashamed of your belief(s). I would encourage you to open your heart and delve into Scripture. It may not seem like it to you (due to some of our 'spirited' debates in another forum :biggrin: ), but doing so has had a significant effect on me this past year...and in a GOOD way, I might add.

It was explained to me that you turn the other cheek to your attacker, so he might strike that one too. Apparently we have different interpretations going for this passage.
No, not at all...the reason for allowing one to strike you again was to publicly show that what they thought about/did to you was insignificant to you. It was the highest form of publicly humiliating one's adversary (way back in the day).

Like I said, that is 2nd hand info given me some years ago (can't even remember who it was that shared it with me).

[Prayerrist]

I do not think I need professional help. I found God. He is better than professional, that's supreme help!

[LightHorseman]

I do not think I need professional help. I found God. He is better than professional, that's supreme help!

If you think God wants you to get excited about the idea of executing people for break and entry... I think you have a strange idea of what God is.

[DoctorDoom]

I am Christian, but do not identify as born again.Then you are not Christian. If you think you are, then you are deceiving yourself. In effect, you have stated, "I am Christian, but I believe that Jesus was a liar."

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

[DoctorDoom]

If you think God wants you to get excited about the idea of executing people for break and entry... I think you have a strange idea of what God is.If you think that God wants you to smile as an armed intruder breaks into your house and very probably kills you, that's your hangup. But then again, Oz has outlawed private firearms, and you are apparently trying to rationalize your defenselessness against lawbreakers.

Q: why do you think Jesus spoke as He did in this passage?

Luke 22:35 And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.
36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.
38 And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.

[DoctorDoom]

One other point: in a litigious liberal society, NOT killing an intruder, but only injuring him, will result in being sued by the intruder, and he will win. Therefore, kill him, and then dump his body on a back road a hundred miles away, with his head, fingers and identifying marks removed.

[LightHorseman]

Oz has outlawed private firearms, and you are apparently trying to rationalize your defenselessness against lawbreakers.

No it hasn't. I'm armed. Just try it.

[Rhino]

No it hasn't. I'm armed.For the time being.

[Charity]

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.<!-- / message -->
AMEN!!!

[Wolfcounsel]

"No it hasn't. I'm armed. Just try it." --LightHorseman, to any would be lawbreaker going against him?

If he presents his weapon harmlessly to you in your house, drops it, and surrenders, what are the things you do after that up until the police come?
<!-- / message -->

[LightHorseman]

If he presents his weapon harmlessly to you in your house, drops it, and surrenders, what are the things you do after that up until the police come?


Keep him covered? Heck, even if he runs for it, having been interupted, so he drops your goods and flees your house... what, your going to shoot him in the back as he runs away?

Are you protecting your property or killing intruders? whats your motive?

[Wolfcounsel]

EHHHHHHH! Wrong answer. But I cannot tell you what to do next that will probably save your life and those of your loved ones.

"Are you protecting your property or killing intruders? whats your motive?" --LightHorseman

Ask the ARMED residents around your neighborhood what they are protecting--lives or property. You already know my answer if you read my post #18.

Ten to one the fleeing coward will probably slam you with a lawsuit for you scaring ten years off his life. Or he will come back again with friends who will ambush you and kill you in your own house while he "flees" again after dropping your property. Then they might decide they need some sexual release in the form of your young children and your wife before they butcher them. Do you have all the answers to their actions after your presence on the scene? Or is it safer to pop the SOB dead and scan the house in a hunt and kill scenario? You decide.

[LightHorseman]

most robbers arent rapists or vengeful, just opportunist thieves. I believe in being prepared to defend myself. I don't believe in killing anyone I see commiting a crime

[Wolfcounsel]

"most robbers arent rapists or vengeful, just opportunist thieves. I believe in being prepared to defend myself. I don't believe in killing anyone I see commiting a crime" --LightHorseman

Then why are you armed?
<!-- / message -->

[LightHorseman]

For defence when necesary. I don't interpret the ownership of a weapon to translate as a right or need to use it without due responsibility

[Wolfcounsel]

"I don't believe in killing anyone I see commiting a crime" --LightHorseman

"I don't interpret the ownership of a weapon to translate as a right or need to use it without due responsibility" --LightHorseman

I would say one is acting responsibly when he blows away any intruder in his house. His family and he deserve better. Go after the scumbags in black robes, silly wigs, the baboons masquerading as concerned attorneys, who only want to preserve a sleazebag's right to intrude. Go after the tort people. You do have the right to defend your castle, and imbeciles who would dare to even think about intruding upon it have the right to be blasted to smithereens by any legal occupant of such. <!-- / message -->

[LightHorseman]

Well, I don't break into people's homes, so it doesn't really bother me if you are trigger happy. If you can live with the consequences, good luck to you. For myself, I don't think shoot first, question later is appropriate. I would respond with lethal force when it becomes apparent that I or anyone I care for are under direct threat.

Otherwise, you are essentially saying you believe in the death penalty for minor offences, without due process, and I just don;'t agree with you. But like I say, if your conscience is clear, go nuts.

[Wolfcounsel]

"Well, I don't break into people's homes, so it doesn't really bother me if you are trigger happy." --LightHorseman

What makes you think people who defend their homes, lives, and property are trigger-happy? You can word it like this: "Well I don't break into people's homes, so it doesn't really bother me if you don't mind taking out the trash."

"I would respond with lethal force when it becomes apparent that I or anyone I care for are under direct threat." --LightHorseman

And when will an ambush in your home by the punk's accomplices become apparent to you that it is a direct threat?

[Rhino]

What makes you think people who defend their homes, lives, and property are trigger-happy?They're just being progressive and enacting a zero tolerance policy.

[Prayerrist]

It's true! If an intruder enters my home I will empty the clip into him. Perhaps, I'll even reload and humiliate his corpse with more bullets.

[Timberwolf]

prayerrist...get some help. It's one thing to be willing, ready, and able to defend yourself, your loved ones and your property...to be creaming your BVDs thinking about it is psychotic, to be kind.

[LightHorseman]

I'm with Timberwolf on this one.

[Wolfcounsel]

No use taking each garbage bag out more than once. Conserve ammo.

[Timberwolf]

I'm with Timberwolf on this one.
Kinda scary, ain't it? :biggrin:

[Peachdiane]

I remember a lady telling me she didn't want guns in the home. She had a baseball bat and even lamps. I couldn't help but giggle...

"Oh wait! Excuse me Mr. Badguy while I unplug my 40 watt weapon<!--EZCODE ITALIC END--><!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :rofl --><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END-->!"

That'll scare 'em... :hahaha:

I guess a 100 watt lamp is the choice of defense in the event of multiple home invaders... :rotflmbo:<!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :muhaha --><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END-->

[Rhino]

I guess a 100 watt lamp is the choice of defense in the event of multiple home invaders... :rotflmbo:3-way bulbs.

[Gonzo67]

Screw a lamp. If it'll make ya happy, I'll install a dimmer switch on the stock of my shot gun.