Military Widows Sue to Get Wiccan Symbol [Archive]

View Full Version : Military Widows Sue to Get Wiccan Symbol

Rhino

11-14-2006, 08:34 AM

Military Widows Sue to Get Wiccan Symbol on Headstones

Monday, November 13, 2006

WASHINGTON — The widows of two combat veterans sued the government Monday for not allowing Wiccan symbols on their husbands' military headstones.

The U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs allows military families to choose any of 38 authorized headstone images. The list includes commonly recognized symbols for Christianity, Buddhism, Islam and Judaism, as well as those for smaller religions such as Sufism Reoriented, Eckiankar and the Japanese faith Seicho-No-Ie.

The Wiccan pentacle, a five-pointed star surrounded by a circle, is not on the list, an omission that the widows say is unconstitutional......http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,229093,00.html

Pendragon_6

11-14-2006, 09:32 AM

I just can't imagine veterans as devil worshippers. I know the Wiccans are gonna scream, but Wicca is a form of devil worship no matter how much they say there is no God or the devil in Wicca.

gnome

11-14-2006, 09:55 AM

I just can't imagine veterans as devil worshippers. I know the Wiccans are gonna scream, but Wicca is a form of devil worship no matter how much they say there is no God or the devil in Wicca.

I have been Wiccan in the past... so I can speak with some knowledge on this matter. On what do you base your opinion that Wicca is a form of devil worship?

GrocerySacker

11-14-2006, 10:23 AM

I've just never been able to take Wicca seriously.

Pendragon_6

11-14-2006, 10:34 AM

I have been Wiccan in the past... so I can speak with some knowledge on this matter. On what do you base your opinion that Wicca is a form of devil worship?_gnome

What I've personally seen and heard.

Wolfcounsel

11-14-2006, 10:38 AM

Why are you not Wiccan now, gnome? I'm curious.

gnome

11-14-2006, 10:44 AM

DoctorDoom

11-14-2006, 10:50 AM

I have been Wiccan in the past... so I can speak with some knowledge on this matter. On what do you base your opinion that Wicca is a form of devil worship?And how deep into Wicca did you go? Do you seriously think that newbies are told everything before they sign up?

Rhino

11-14-2006, 10:56 AM

Wicca is not an organized religion, so worship can and does vary widely. However, with possible few exceptions outside their mainstream, they don't worship Satan. But even if that single fact is accepted by many Christians, it still would not necessarily constitute acceptance of the Wicca religion.

"A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them."
Leviticus 20:27

"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."
Exodus 22:18

Kinda puts the damper on tolerance of Wicca.

DoctorDoom

11-14-2006, 11:08 AM

However, with possible few exceptions outside their mainstream, they don't worship Satan.A more accurate assessment would be, "However, with possible few exceptions outside their mainstream, they don't believe that they worship Satan."

Old Scratch is an accomplished secret agent. His greatest success is convincing man that he doesn't exist.

Antigone

11-14-2006, 11:14 AM

Were the soldiers themselves Wiccan or is this just their widow's idea? Article doesn't say (unless I missed it somewhere). For all any of us know, their husband's weren't even Wiccan.

Patrick Henry

11-14-2006, 11:42 AM

A more accurate assessment would be, "However, with possible few exceptions outside their mainstream, they don't believe that they worship Satan."

Old Scratch is an accomplished secret agent. His greatest success is convincing man that he doesn't exist.

Very true.

gnome

11-14-2006, 12:07 PM

Why are you not Wiccan now, gnome? I'm curious.

Thought I might get asked that. It began during a period of time in my University days when I decided that maybe I was too closed-minded, having grown up atheist. I decided to explore several religions and see if anything moved me to change my beliefs--to challenge myself, as it were.

Among some of the more memorable experiences I had was a trip to an African Methodist Episcopal church in Ybor City, visiting some Hare Krishnas at their home/temple, and attending an open Wicca circle held at a Unitarian church. I can tell more about the AME or Krishnas if someone's curious, but since the question was about Wicca I'll skip to that.

I had heard about Wicca before, and found the idea of a nature-based religion intriguing, as well as the simple principle of "do as you will, except harm none." With a broad-based concept of harm, including long-term harm, I found it a robust moral principle that I could follow with more conviction than rules laid out in a book I didn't entirely trust, or told to me by a preacher at a pulpit.

I went to an open Circle (that is, one that is open to anyone, rather than just coven members) to see how things went. I found it a powerful experience of music and beautiful rituals. I formed instant friendships with the people I met there, and the idea to pursue it further began to appeal to me. What finally clicked for me to join was to consider the Earth-worshipping aspect of it. I tried to envision the Earth as a complex organism, of which the plants, animals, and people were just a subset. Could it speak, in some way, with one voice? I thought maybe it could, and the idea seemed... divine, and no lesser term would do. So here was something to worship that was undisputably real--I was standing on it, after all.

I remained a Wiccan for many years after that and became a dedicant to a coven named Roots and Wings. But over time I began to drift away from my beliefs. The idea that I was worshiping something real was able to quell the skeptic in me for a while, but other issues cropped up.

A self-aware Gaia-style planet that I envisioned was a beautiful idea, but did I really have anything to cause me to believe it was so, besides that I liked the idea? I had to admit I did not. The rituals of visualizing a buildup of energy and passing it around the circle began to trouble me... I was sure I felt the energy flow, but could I distinguish the real thing from simply employing a strong imagination? I wasn't certain of that. Though I adored my Wiccan friends, they had very superstitious habits that I couldn't agree with. Many of them believed they could perform magical spells, but I never witnessed anything that couldn't be explained by imagination and strong intuition.

Another troubling development was when I realized that there seemed to be two camps among Wiccans. Some were as dogmatic as if they had a Bible and a Pope, insisting that certain rituals had to be done just this way or they wouldn't work or were invalid, or that one had to be in favor with certain official Wiccan organizations to be "real" Wiccans. I found myself intrinsically rejecting that. For a while I stuck with the idea that as a member of what we affectionately referred to as "the most disorganized organized religion", each Wiccan was free to determine or even create for themselves what worked and was real, and what wasn't.

Ultimately that in and of itself was the end of my considering myself Wiccan at all--I asked myself if there was any difference than that philosophy, and just making up stuff that I enjoyed. After careful soul-searching I found no difference inside myself and realized that I really was an atheist after all.

(sorry to be so long winded... I don't think I've ever put this all together in words before)

Rhino

11-14-2006, 12:14 PM

So, you're a reformed agnostic? LOL!

Ant

11-14-2006, 12:19 PM

I just can't imagine veterans as devil worshippers. I know the Wiccans are gonna scream, but Wicca is a form of devil worship no matter how much they say there is no God or the devil in Wicca.

Once again, Wiccans aren't devil worshippers, they're D&D nerds who decided to create their own religion.

Patrick Henry

11-14-2006, 12:24 PM

Once again, Wiccans aren't devil worshippers, they're D&D nerds who decided to create their own religion.

:roar:

Rhino

11-14-2006, 12:26 PM

ROFL!!! Good one, Ant!

thenotch

11-14-2006, 12:29 PM

Old Scratch is an accomplished secret agent. His greatest success is convincing man that he doesn't exist.

Bingo. :claps:

Most people don't get that. Satan will do whatever he can to make you think he does not exist, especially in another religion.

You have to serve somebody, and it's either going to be the Lord or it is going to be satan. If you aren't serving the Lord, by practicing some other non-Christian religion you are serving satan.

And I also agree that we have to wonder if these servicemen were actually even involved in Wicca.

I am sorry for these womens loss, but there is a lot of people out there milking on dead servicemen, add that nut-job Cindy Sheehan to the top of the list... she is milking her dead son for all it is worth... So who is to say these women aren't doing the same thing?

Faithful_Servant

11-14-2006, 12:41 PM

thenotch

11-14-2006, 12:50 PM

Wicca isn't so much a form of Satanism as it is a form of "I"ism. It's about the idea that "I" can become anything "I" want to; "I" can do anything "I" want to; and "I" don't have to be accountable to anyone for anything.

"Not that I condone fascism, or any -ism for that matter. -Ism's in my opinion are not good. A person should not believe in an -ism, he should believe in himself. I quote John Lennon, 'I don't believe in Beatles, I just believe in me.' Good point there. After all, he was 'The Walrus'.

I could be the walrus, but I'd still have to bum rides off of people."

:rotflmbo:

Sorry... couldn't resist.. back to the topic :biggrin:

gnome

11-14-2006, 01:09 PM

I understand that Christians believe that worshiping of anything besides the Lord is directly or indirectly serving Satan. I also understand why they must hold to that belief. However, I would argue this is not a valid legal basis to refuse a non-Christian religious serviceman's chosen symbol. Not that anyone has argued that yet.

I also personally think worship is an active thing--that you can't worship something if you aren't envisioning it when you worship.

If someone believes that it is Satan-worship in a more overt manner than just "not-Jesus" I believe they may be misinformed about how most Wiccans practice.

But, on topic... there has been a lot of criticism of Wicca, plenty of it valid... but what are people's opinions on the legal standpoint?

gnome

11-14-2006, 01:18 PM

Wicca isn't so much a form of Satanism as it is a form of "I"ism. It's about the idea that "I" can become anything "I" want to; "I" can do anything "I" want to; and "I" don't have to be accountable to anyone for anything.

Couldn't be further from the truth... first, as has been mentioned, a Wiccan is enjoined from doing harm to others. Secondly they don't have an entity that judges you and holds you accountable, but they do believe in something called the "Threefold Rule" which states that what you do comes back to you magnified by three... so if you act evil, you will receive more evil in return. I can assure you that Wiccans take this seriously and do not consider themselves free to do as they please without consequence.

Ant

11-14-2006, 01:21 PM

there has been a lot of criticism of Wicca, plenty of it valid... but what are people's opinions on the legal standpoint?

Barring blatantly offensive symbols like the swastika, they can put whatever symbol they want on their headstone as far as I'm concerned.

Pendragon_6

11-14-2006, 01:28 PM

Well great, bring it up, tell me about it...gnome
=========
In my wilder younger days I was dating a girl who was a wiccan, and she assured me there was no devil in wicca. So, I went to a wiccan service. Once there I was appalled at what I saw written on the walls. There were a number of different satanic symbols written in fresh blood.[dripping]

gnome

11-14-2006, 01:44 PM

In my wilder younger days I was dating a girl who was a wiccan, and she assured me there was no devil in wicca. So, I went to a wiccan service. Once there I was appalled at what I saw written on the walls. There were a number of different satanic symbols written in fresh blood.[dripping]

Can you recall what the symbols looked like? Did you find out what the blood came from?

Pendragon_6

11-14-2006, 01:58 PM

I didn't stick around long enough to find out what the blood was from. There was an upsidedown star with a circle around it. Two elongated ovals in the form of a cross, with smaller symbols inside the crossed ovals. 666 with the numbers in a triangle. There were other signs I didn't recognize.

Ant

11-14-2006, 02:26 PM

gnome

11-14-2006, 03:37 PM

If it was as you described, then whoever invited you to that event was lying if they said it was Wiccan. It would be about the same as if they told you that you were going to a Christian service and you saw the same thing. It proves nothing about Wicca except that someone who said they were Wiccan was untruthful and was a literal Satanist instead. Anyone can lie.

Eagle1

11-14-2006, 04:50 PM

had a friend once who was wiccan. she actually thought she could put hexes on people.
i almost believed her when our store assistant manager got fired and prosecuted for stealing serious amounts of money, but it turns out they had been investigating him before she started working there

Patrick Henry

11-14-2006, 10:11 PM

...Secondly they don't have an entity that judges you and holds you accountable, ...

I think that this was the gist of it, and hence the attraction of those that practice it.

Patrick Henry

11-14-2006, 10:15 PM

Barring blatantly offensive symbols like the swastika, they can put whatever symbol they want on their headstone as far as I'm concerned.

So, you would be the one who decides what is and isn't 'offensive'? There's one problem here, symbols are to be religious. Wiccan is just a bunch of nuts playing Harry Potter or something.

Rhino

11-15-2006, 07:11 AM

I understand that Christians believe that worshiping of anything besides the Lord is directly or indirectly serving Satan.Really? I'm a Christian, and I don't understand that at all. Nor do any other Christians that I know. Might want to watch those blanket assumptions.

Pendragon_6

11-15-2006, 07:42 AM

Free_Canuck

11-15-2006, 08:48 AM

Wiccan is gross, but I've seen much worst. I went with a friend to a place where (I shit you not) people were eating some kind of white bread and drinking water in a strange ceremony and they told me (I'm not making this up) that it was the flesh and the blood of their "God"!****ing cannibals.

Wolfcounsel

11-15-2006, 08:51 AM

"Wiccan is gross, but I've seen much worst. I went with a friend to a place where (I shit you not) people were eating some kind of white bread and drinking water in a strange ceremony and they told me (I'm not making this up) that it was the flesh and the blood of their "God"!****ing cannibals." --Free_Canuck

I'll be breaking out the football. Hang on.

DoctorDoom

11-15-2006, 09:06 AM

Ex 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying,
2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Matt 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

There is no middle ground.

We all have our gods—Satan, Gaia, money, sex, power, fame, stuff—but there is only one God worthy of worship, and it's not the god of Wicca. If the witches want Wiccan symbols on the headstones, that's their choice. They'll answer to the One True God later.

Ant

11-15-2006, 09:09 AM

Really? I'm a Christian, and I don't understand that at all. Nor do any other Christians that I know. Might want to watch those blanket assumptions.

See DoctorDoom's post above. I believe he is one of those Christians that gnome was referring to.

Ant

11-15-2006, 09:18 AM

So, you would be the one who decides what is and isn't 'offensive'? There's one problem here, symbols are to be religious. Wiccan is just a bunch of nuts playing Harry Potter or something.

To them, the pentagram is a religious symbol. I personally believe that all religions are pretty silly, but that won't stop me from defending someone's choice to have a cross, star of David, crescent, or any other religious symbol on their grave.

Ant

11-15-2006, 09:22 AM

people were eating some kind of white bread and drinking water in a strange ceremony

Were they Mormons? I grew up most of my life in the Catholic church, but at the age of eight, I went to live with my father in Salt Lake City, Utah. I thought it was completely bizarre that they used Wonder Bread and water for their communion instead of communion wafers and wine.

DoctorDoom

11-15-2006, 09:56 AM

It proves nothing about Wicca except that someone who said they were Wiccan was untruthful and was a literal Satanist instead.As I pointed out earlier, there are levels of "the craft" that range from Wicca ("white" witchcraft), the clueless idiots dancing naked around fires, to the deep, dark things that the newbies and outsiders never see or hear about.

FYI:

Witchcraft - World of Wicca (http://www.witchcraft.com.au/)

WICCA ('White Witchcraft') (http://www.ccgm.org.au/Articles/ARTICLE-0061.htm)

From that page (written from a Christian perspective):

In light of sensationalist and negative publicity given to the very disturbing apparent increase in Satanism, it is important to recognise that witchcraft and Satanism are not necessarily the same thing.

Modern witches do not worship Satan. Most don't believe in his existence. Instead, they worship the Mother Goddess (in her many different forms). Basically they are nature worshippers, and most of their rituals relate to the seasons. Most believe that there is a neutral power in nature that they can harness, and use for good, through their rituals.

In modern witchcraft the focus is on the woman. The High Priestess of the coven is superior to the High Priest. Men, as well as women, are called 'witch' (not wizard or warlock), but the women take pre-eminence. This emphasis on the female, and on the Goddess, has attracted many ardent feminists into modern witchcraft, or wicca.

Satanism, on the other hand, is male oriented, dominated, and controlled. Satanists do believe in Satan, and worship him as such. Witches do not sacrifice animals and drink their blood, some Satanists do. Most members of wicca are very much against those who ‘practise the black arts’. Many are fearful, and very much against, Satanists and ‘Black Witches’, and are often willing to expose such people, if they can.The highlighted word in the first paragraph is most revealing.

Modern witches do not worship Satan. Most don't believe in his existence.My point about Satan's greatest achievement is made.

Instead, they worship the Mother Goddess (in her many different forms).They can call their god/goddess whatever strikes their fancy, but behind the scenes is Old Scratch, deceiving them that what they are doing is harmless and indeed beneficial. And on that fateful day, the God Whom they chose to reject in favor of their deadly delusions will not distinguish between those who knowingly worshipped Satan and those who worshipped him in ignorance.

Pendragon_6

11-15-2006, 10:10 AM

Thanks for the links, Doc.

Lazarus

11-15-2006, 10:17 AM

...(sorry to be so long winded... I don't think I've ever put this all together in words before)Dont apologize... I was interested in hearing the explanation... One of my very closest friends practices that cult and Im trying to analyze why someone of such superior intelligence and personal self-discipline as she becomes enamored of such a sad, fairytale ideal... I have trouble classifying it as a religion - its more along the lines of the classic definition of a cult, and its not suprising that many of its adherants use the "belief" to simply justify hedonism...

As for the earlier declaration that it is demonic in its practice, I agree with this assessment based on my own academic theological study of demonology... Doc hit the truth with his analysis of Satan's motivation...

I know my friend prays to some contrived Wiccan female deity - some concept of an earth goddess that, as far as I have been aboe to determine, is as Gnome described - it was created in the minds of the Wiccans simply because that is how they would like for the real world to be...

The only problem with this little fantasy is that there are classifications of fallen angels whose dedicated purpose is to masquerade as just such
"deities"... And if one does an in depth reaserch of the history of mythological pantheons and pagan deities, one will find suprisingly close parallels between dieties of different cultures...

In truth, there are only a very small number of actual characters in play - they just change their names when they drift from one pagan culture to the next... And each of these dieties are actually represented by a very real demon... One must keep in mind that Satan's purpose in this is to confuse and distract humans from the truth of the plan of God, so he offers any number of alternative paths that all stand in opposition to God's plan... He cares not which path the individual takes, as long as it is not God's... All his alternative deities serve his ultimate purpose...

So in that sense, Wicca is indeed a demonic cult because it worships a very real demon or demons who masquerade as a pantheon of pagan earth deities...

As for the question of the pentagram on the tombstones, 1) The Wiccan wives are free to refuse to use the stone provided by the government - they may opt to privide their own stone and bury the soldier in any commercial cemetary, and 2) Since the pentagram is an obvious and accepted symbol of Satan worship, and is an abomionation to the vast number of the public, I believe the government is perfectly justified in refusing to provide stones with such a symbol... There are any number of other Wiccan symbols that would serve their purposes - Such as the symbol of a tree, which is significant to the Wiccan belief...

In short, I believe the wives in question are simply some of those anti-social types who enjoy stirring controversy and causing as much public shock as possible... They aren't serious practitioners of a religion - they are show offs...

Rhino

11-15-2006, 10:50 AM

See DoctorDoom's post above. I believe he is one of those Christians that gnome was referring to.Not really. What he posted does not mean that those who do not worship God are Satanists. For instance, Hindus do not worship Satan. The statement that gnome made is that all Christians would think they do. That simply isn't true. There is a big difference between simply not worshipping God and worshipping Satan. While some Christians may indeed feel that all 'non-believers' are Satan worshippers, they would be few and far between, and far from the norm. The vast majority of Christians simply don't feel that way. Gnome made a blanket statement that was wrong.

DoctorDoom

11-15-2006, 11:25 AM

Not really. What he posted does not mean that those who do not worship God are Satanists.What I posted is that they may not overtly worship Satan, but HornHead is behind whatever gods or goddesses they DO worship.

Rhino

11-15-2006, 11:39 AM

Lazarus

11-15-2006, 11:45 AM

It comes down to whether one believes not only in God but also whether one believs that Satan exists... Those like Doc, and myself, believe and understand that Satan, in his continuing conflict with God, does not require direct worship of himself - his goal is to confuse people into worshiping anything but Christ...

Although many religions center around demons who masquerade as false deities, many others do not, even while they reject Christ... And only a very small population of humans directly claim to worship Satan... In truth, Satan probably couldnt care less about that latter group... Its the large religions that get the maximum effort on the part of Satan and his fallen angels...

The shallow Hollywood image of Satan worship and hideous twisted demons does not even come near the realities of the congames created and maintained by the superior intellect of Satan... Satan doesnt play at Halloween - He is in the glamour business and the false alternatives he offers are wrapped in the most compelling attractiveness...

He knows all the various lusts that can occur among men, and he panders to those lusts... In a lot of cases, that is nothing more than offering power over other people...

DoctorDoom

11-15-2006, 11:55 AM

Those like Doc, and myself, believe and understand that Satan, in his continuing conflict with God, does not require direct worship of himself - his goal is to confuse people into worshiping anything but Christ...Just so.

Rhino

11-15-2006, 12:04 PM

Okay. I've just never heard that viewpoint before.

Free_Canuck

11-15-2006, 12:36 PM

So, if I understand you correctly, Hinduism, Buddhism or other non-Christian religions would be devil worship in your eyes? I guess I would have to count you as the first Christian I've 'met' with that viewpoint.

Since the dawn of the human civilization, peoples have worshipped a variety of god(s), from the basic african proto-animalism and the Greek pantheon and the modern monotheistic religions. And I'm sure our descendants will also have their own God to worship, even thought he may be very different from ours.

But all this is not important since we are lucky enough to believe in the REAL One True Religion, which is the current flavor of american protestantism, and all the others are nothing more than tools of the devil to distract us from our Christian faith.

Ant

11-15-2006, 12:43 PM

I guess I would have to count you as the first Christian I've 'met' with that viewpoint.

I've met lots of them.

"If you do not worship my god, you worship the devil by default."

Patrick Henry

11-15-2006, 12:43 PM

What I posted is that they may not overtly worship Satan, but HornHead is behind whatever gods or goddesses they DO worship.

An astute observation.

Ant

11-15-2006, 12:53 PM

What I posted is that they may not overtly worship Satan, but HornHead is behind whatever gods or goddesses they DO worship.

So what about those who don't worship, or even believe in for that matter, any gods or goddesses? Do they also worship Satan by default?

Pendragon_6

11-15-2006, 01:20 PM

satan is the father of lies.

gnome

11-15-2006, 05:11 PM

So, you would be the one who decides what is and isn't 'offensive'? There's one problem here, symbols are to be religious. Wiccan is just a bunch of nuts playing Harry Potter or something.

That is the question indeed. You either must let each person declare what religion they are, and leave it up to them how valid it is, or you must have the government decide what's a religion and what isn't. Unless there's a third alternative I wasn't aware of.

gnome

11-15-2006, 05:15 PM

Really? I'm a Christian, and I don't understand that at all. Nor do any other Christians that I know. Might want to watch those blanket assumptions.

I should be careful of that, and perhaps this is a learning opportunity. I honestly thought it was a common belief among Christians.

It was mentioned in this thread even by thenotch:

You have to serve somebody, and it's either going to be the Lord or it is going to be satan. If you aren't serving the Lord, by practicing some other non-Christian religion you are serving satan.

But I'd be happy to learn that this isn't universal.

gnome

11-15-2006, 05:54 PM

They can call their god/goddess whatever strikes their fancy, but behind the scenes is Old Scratch, deceiving them that what they are doing is harmless and indeed beneficial. And on that fateful day, the God Whom they chose to reject in favor of their deadly delusions will not distinguish between those who knowingly worshipped Satan and those who worshipped him in ignorance.

How do you worship something in ignorance? If I were to worship an image that meant friendship and justice to me, that is actually a picture of say Ted Bundy, if I didn't know that, it doesn't make me a fan of Ted Bundy's works...

True, one should be very careful what religion/cult/church they join, and indeed research the organizations behind it... ignorance is not an excuse when the information is available. But to worship evil, you must choose evil.

Reverse it a second, if someone decided to be a satanist, and someone substituted a picture of Jesus in disguise for them to pray to, would that give them credit for worshipping Jesus?

gnome

11-15-2006, 06:03 PM

As for the question of the pentagram on the tombstones, 1) The Wiccan wives are free to refuse to use the stone provided by the government - they may opt to privide their own stone and bury the soldier in any commercial cemetary, and 2) Since the pentagram is an obvious and accepted symbol of Satan worship, and is an abomionation to the vast number of the public, I believe the government is perfectly justified in refusing to provide stones with such a symbol... There are any number of other Wiccan symbols that would serve their purposes - Such as the symbol of a tree, which is significant to the Wiccan belief...

You propose a majority standard to decide what is an acceptable religious symbol and what is not. How is that determined... I argue that the pentagram is not a symbol exclusive to Satanism, so whose opinion determines the ruling? Do we take a vote on the acceptability of another religion's symbol, or is some representative empowered to make that decision for us to make sure we are not offended?

Wyatt_Junker

11-15-2006, 10:12 PM

There are some oafs that have a psychological need to be counter-cultural doorknobs in whatever form it takes. They don't care about the schtick as long as it assumes a minority point of view whereby they can feel special, unique and designer.

And although they aren't definitional yuppies, the ethos is the same. The specialist industry of being different merely to stick a thumb in society's mundane norms. I know dorks who eat sushi just so they can tell their friends, 'hey, I ate sushi!' They should just fuking shut up.

These people are just trying too hard. Its the same thing whenever I hear people laughing out loud at Shakespeare reproductions. Folks. Its not that funny. Its just not. Shut up.

Wiccans are just another fastfood clique like the vanity car license plates that began in the late eighties. Look at me. Well guess what? I don't want to look at you. Take your pretty little differences, all your uniquenesses that you feel are so special and go hide them under a rock. You bore me.

And if you must pretend to be a witch, I'd rather you just go get the Buffy TVS on DVD and save yourself on all those hokey ceremonies.

What's next? Pirate Day?

Riverboat

11-15-2006, 10:18 PM

Here are some witches that put a hex on me.

http://www.celebritydesktop.com/images/tvshows/charmed.jpg

DoctorDoom

11-15-2006, 11:18 PM

So what about those who don't worship, or even believe in for that matter, any gods or goddesses? Do they also worship Satan by default?Worship him or merely serve him, the effect is the same, little child.

DoctorDoom

11-16-2006, 12:03 AM

How do you worship something in ignorance?By not knowing the nature of what one worships. Notice this in the post that you cited:

They can call their god/goddess whatever strikes their fancy ...To those who squeaked through Reading Comprehension, this opening clause establishes that what is to follow refers to those who DO worship.

If I were to worship an image that meant friendship and justice to me, that is actually a picture of say Ted Bundy, if I didn't know that, it doesn't make me a fan of Ted Bundy's works...And that has what to do with false gods and goddesses, which is the issue at the moment? If you considered Ted Bundy your god, then it might apply.

True, one should be very careful what religion/cult/church they join, and indeed research the organizations behind it... ignorance is not an excuse when the information is available.We actually agree on something. But that shall pass.

But to worship evil, you must choose evil.Are you familiar with the ancient ritual of passing one's children through the fire, an integral part of Moloch worship?

Deuteronomy 18:10: "Never shall there be found among you one who causes his son or his daughter to pass through the fire."

O. Palmer Robertson comments:

"By offering human sacrifice, the Canaanite worshiper attempted to convince the gods of the depth of his devotion and to coerce them to fulfill his personal desires. The worshiper actually expected to determine the course of the future through this repulsive practice of offering human sacrifices to the gods.

"Scripture does not provide a great amount of detail about this practice of causing a son or daughter to 'pass through the fire.' But the procedure was followed widely among ancient peoples. The Carthaginian god Moloch took the form of a human figure with a bull's head. His arms were outstretched to receive children offered in sacrifice. This metal image was heated red hot by a fire kindled inside the idol. Children were laid on the idol's arms and rolled into the fiery belly of the god. Flutes and drums drowned out the cries of the victims. Mothers stood by without shedding a tear to display their willingness to make these offerings. This abominable practice shows the extent to which humanity will go in attempting to determine the course of the future.Canaanite Worship and Abortion: A Scripture Meditation (http://theologica.blogspot.com/2004/11/canaanite-worship-and-abortion.html)

The people sacrificed their infants and children in worship of Moloch. Did they consider it evil? Obviously not. So was it evil? No sane person can call it otherwise. "But to worship evil, you must choose evil." Did they choose it because it was evil?

Reverse it a second, if someone decided to be a satanist, and someone substituted a picture of Jesus in disguise for them to pray to, would that give them credit for worshipping Jesus?Your red herrings are rotting.

CzechPrince

11-20-2006, 11:47 PM

But all this is not important since we are lucky enough to believe in the REAL One True Religion, which is the current flavor of american protestantism, .

Really? Which branch?

Lazarus

11-21-2006, 02:36 PM

You propose a majority standard to decide what is an acceptable religious symbol and what is not. How is that determined... I argue that the pentagram is not a symbol exclusive to Satanism, so whose opinion determines the ruling? Do we take a vote on the acceptability of another religion's symbol, or is some representative empowered to make that decision for us to make sure we are not offended?I never said that the Pentagram is "exclusive" to Satanism... Be careful with your implications... What I said was that it was the primary symbol used by Satanists, and as such is recognized as such by the general public...

Im not defining what the Wiccans are free to use on their tombstones... But the point is that the government does have a certain degree of authority in this area if Tax dollars are being used to fund the stone in question...

Some common sense must be applied here... Would it be justified in your opinion if the Wiccan in question wanted to use a Swashtika, and should US taxpayers be required to fund such a symbol? Indeed, should the taxpayers be required to fund any inane symbol that any cult chooses? Should the government provide a stone with a graphic depiction of two people engaged in sexual intercourse just because some family of a deseased soldier claims that they practice a cult that revolves around "free love"?

Remember that I pointed out that no one is required to use the stone that the government offers - any family is free to provide their own stone with whatever symbolism is lawful to use - In this case, they are free to use their pentagram... Its just a question of whether or not the government is required to recognize their chosen symbol...

DesertFox

11-21-2006, 04:06 PM

gnome

11-21-2006, 04:47 PM

I never said that the Pentagram is "exclusive" to Satanism... Be careful with your implications... What I said was that it was the primary symbol used by Satanists, and as such is recognized as such by the general public...

Im not defining what the Wiccans are free to use on their tombstones... But the point is that the government does have a certain degree of authority in this area if Tax dollars are being used to fund the stone in question...

Some common sense must be applied here... Would it be justified in your opinion if the Wiccan in question wanted to use a Swashtika, and should US taxpayers be required to fund such a symbol? Indeed, should the taxpayers be required to fund any inane symbol that any cult chooses? Should the government provide a stone with a graphic depiction of two people engaged in sexual intercourse just because some family of a deseased soldier claims that they practice a cult that revolves around "free love"?

Remember that I pointed out that no one is required to use the stone that the government offers - any family is free to provide their own stone with whatever symbolism is lawful to use - In this case, they are free to use their pentagram... Its just a question of whether or not the government is required to recognize their chosen symbol...

You have not proposed a method by which the government decides which ones are acceptable to be paid by taxpayer money and which ones are not. Common sense is great, but it doesn't give you an answer when there is a legal conflict. You claim the symbol is offensive, I claim it isn't. The government must choose whether to include that among their offerings. How is that decision to be made, in your opinion?

One that can reduce the need to include any symbol that an individual serviceman requests, is to set a threshhold on membership. If say x number of servicemen register under a religion, it should be included. I might disagree with the outcome, but at least it would be based on something that isn't a value judgment of the symbol itself, which I don't believe the government is empowered to do.

Air-Warrior

11-21-2006, 09:09 PM

Since the dawn of the human civilization, peoples have worshipped a variety of god(s), from the basic african proto-animalism and the Greek pantheon and the modern monotheistic religions. And I'm sure our descendants will also have their own God to worship, even thought he may be very different from ours.

But all this is not important since we are lucky enough to believe in the REAL One True Religion, which is the current flavor of american protestantism, and all the others are nothing more than tools of the devil to distract us from our Christian faith.Get the feeling that your viewpoint is taken with a grain of salt here? No?

You have officially been served notice.

Air-Warrior

11-21-2006, 09:19 PM

The devil may well exist, but he isn't necessary to explain the evils of the world. Most of the evil we see around us can be amply explained by human stupidity, lack of imagination, stubbornness, laziness, vanity and viciousness.He IS neccessary to explain the evils of the world.... He is the PRINCE of this world.
(http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=12&verse=9&version=9&context=verse)Revelation 12:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=12&verse=9&version=9&context=verse)
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=12&verse=9&version=9&context=verse)

Refer back to original sin and how it happened and what all the spinoffs from that have become.

Riverboat

11-22-2006, 12:00 AM

DesertFox

11-22-2006, 09:01 AM

He IS neccessary to explain the evils of the world.... He is the PRINCE of this world.You are free to believe as you wish. As am I.

DoctorDoom

11-22-2006, 12:29 PM

He IS neccessary to explain the evils of the world.... He is the PRINCE of this world.You are free to believe as you wish. As am I.I won't say that he is the author of every evil thought, word or deed. Man is sinful and is quite capable of being evil on his own. However, behind the world's slow but relentless descent into pure, unadulterated evil, and the excusing of each new frontier of evil as an expansion of freedom, is a power far beyond man's ability to bring it to pass on his own.

This generation is wallowing in a depth of evil that was unknown in previous generations, the protests about how each generation bemoaned the morals of the next one notwithstanding. Yes, the older folks were alarmed about the Beates and miniskirts and swimsuits that showed the whole leg. But those were minor matters.

The Beatles, e.g., had this sort of lyrics:

Oh yeah, I´ll tell you something
I think you'll understand
When I say that something
I wanna hold your hand
I wanna hold your hand
I wanna hold your hand

Oh, please, say to me
You'll let me be your man
and please, say to me
You'll let me hold your hand
Now let me hold your hand
I wanna hold your hand

What's being pumped into our kids' ears from those omnipresent headsets?

3,6,9 standing real fine move it to you sing it to me one mo time
Get low, Get low 6x
To the window, to the wall, (to dat wall)
To the sweat drip down my balls (MY BALLS)
To all these bitches crawl (crawl)
To all skit skit motherf**ker (motherf**ker!) all skit skit got dam (Got dam)
To all skit skit motherf**ker (motherf**ker!) all skit skit got dam (Got dam)

( Lil Jon Lyrics )
Shortie crunk so fresh so clean can she f**k that
Question been harassing me in the mind this bitch is fine
I done came to the club about 50th 11 times now can I play with yo
Paine line club owner said I need to calm down security guard go to sweating
Me now nigga drunk then a motherf**ker threaten me now

Lil Jon Lyrics to Get Low Song (http://www.hit-rap-lyrics.com/lil-jon-lyrics-get-low.html)

Compare TV, films, magazines et al from 1956 to those of 2006. The destruction of our once-generally-moral society has been slow, relentless and unstoppable. And it has been going on for a long time.

"Today, most of the good people are afraid to be good. They strive to be broadminded and tolerant. It is fashionable to be tolerant — but mostly tolerant of evil — and this new code has reached the proportions of demanding intolerance of good."
-- Lady Queenborough (Edith Starr Miller), Occult Theocracy, 1933

It has reached the point where those who speak out against it are vilified and demonized. Take a public stand against rampant pornography and the glorification of perversion in America and see what happens.

Our culture has not sunk to it present depth of utter depravity because of individuals who committed themselves to being evil. Rather, it has been the result of the rejection of God and the concept of evil.

He laughed. ‘But what will become of men then?’ I asked him, ‘without God and immortal life? All things are lawful then, they can do what they like?’
-- Dostoyevsky, Brothers Karamazov, Chapter 73

The differences between 1956 and 2006 are not mere matters of degree. They are fundamental, destructive changes in the nature of American culture. Once the notion that liberty equals license became ingrained, the moral and ethical barriers collapsed, one by one, each time with the wold "only" playing a prominent part. "It's ONLY a small change." "It's ONLY a slight relaxing of the moral standards." Compromising with the ungodly is NEVER just a little.

Once upon a time, a company was selling gallon jugs of pure spring water. To save money, it decided to replace one drop of water with raw sewage in each gallon of water. "It is only a little compromise," the company reasoned. "No one would be likely to taste it and it certainly wouldn't hurt anyone." So, for a while it sold gallon jugs of water with one drop of sewage. No one was affected by the change.

After a while, the company added another drop. "It's only a one-drop change, and nobody noticed the first one," they rationalized. And, nobody noticed the second one. Or the third or fourth or fifth or tenth one, each one being only a one-drop change that the people accepted because it was only a very slight change over time.

When the company was adding twenty drops, sensitive people began to experience adverse effects, and said, "It's the water. There's something wrong with it."
"Don't be absurd," the majority replied. "We all drink it and it's not affecting us."

And, over time the number of drops went up to thirty and forty and fifty, one drop of sewage at a time, and people didn't notice the one-drop change, even when more and more people were experiencing adverse reactions.

And a group of those who were sensitive to the pollution united and told the people, "We KNOW there is something wrong with this water. It's making us ill and it certainly cannot be good for anyone."
"Will you fanatical whiners PLEASE shut up? There's nothing wrong with the water."

And then someone in the group found in a back room several bottles of the original pure spring water. He tasted it and said, "There IS something different with our water." Taking the jugs with them, they went to the people and said, "Taste this, and see what we mean."

They handed out glasses of the pure water, and the people spat it out and said, "This is disgusting. What were they selling us back then?" With that, they destroyed the pure water, drove out the group from their midst, and went back to drinking their sewage.

When society becomes accustomed to the slow, stealthy infusion of evil, there comes a time when those who point out the evil are decried as zealots for standing for what is right and good. A society that abandons the absolutes of right and wrong is left with nothing on which to base its value judgments, and is at the mercy of whatever ephemeral standard is in vogue at the moment. Inevitably, those who cite the original standards are dismissed as fools or assailed as meddling fanatics.

There is no record in history of a nation or culture or civilization that turned its back on God's eternal, immutable standards of right and wrong and as a result improved itself. Ours won't be the first.

Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
21 Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!