Minnesota CCW: Churches Scramble, Fret Over Gun Law

[Seeker of Truth]

Churches scramble, fret over gun law
Karen Youso, Star Tribune

Published May 24, 2003 CHUR24

The woman returning a call from Al-Taqwa Mosque in St. Paul was puzzled when asked about a new state law that allows people with permits to carry guns in, among other places, mosques and other houses of worship.

"What country are you talking about?"

That response could well have come from any church, synagogue or mosque in Minnesota before a lawsuit was filed Tuesday in Hennepin County by Edina Community Lutheran Church. The church maintains that the state's new conceal-and-carry gun law infringes on the guarantee of religious freedom under the Constitution because it requires the church to, among other things, allow guns in its parking lot.

Calls are pouring in from other churches and synagogues, said David Lillehaug, the attorney who filed the suit on behalf of the Edina church and, soon after, Holy Trinity Lutheran Church in Minneapolis.

"It's been astonishing," he said. "Clearly, a very deep chord has been struck."

Interested religious organizations will be added as plaintiffs on May 28, the date the law takes effect, Lillehaug said. But many congregations aren't ready to make that decision.

"This has taken us off guard," said the Rev. Doug Donley of University Baptist Church in Minneapolis. He and others at the church are discussing their options.

The conceal-and-carry bill was passed late last month and will take effect Wednesday.

More @ <a href="http://www.startribune.com" target="_blank">www.startribune.com (http://www.startribune.com/stories/614/3900332.html)</a>

[Timberwolf]

Just sent this to Ms. Youso:<ul type="square">Ms. Youso,

I've just read your article concerning Minnesota houses of worship reaction to the newly passed CCW law and can't, for the life of me, understand why the people of Minnesota are so afraid of responsible, law-abiding citizens carrying guns for personal protection. I also cannot fathom how anyone doesn't recognize the fact (yes, FACT) that every state that has enacted CCW legislation has experienced a dramatic drop in crime and that every state and/or municipality that has enacted gun-control laws have seen crime go through the roof. Were it otherwise, DC, NYC, LA, Chicago and other cities with strict gun-control laws would be the safest cities on the planet. I think we both know that is not the case.

Call it an educated guess, but I'll bet good money that crime in the Twin Cities drops considerably in the coming year because criminals will no longer have "Carte Blanche" on their victims. This is because the criminals will no longer be all but assured that their potential victims are disarmed...and criminals are cowards. Should they meet with resistance, the VAST majority of them turn tail and run.

From your article, you quote Rabbi Glaser, who said, "I would love to see the foolish law repealed". To this, I can only respond, "I would love to see the good Rabbi get a clue." The only one exhibiting foolishness is the Rabbi for his emotional, knee-jerk response to a positive step toward making all Minnesotans safer.[/list]

[Seeker of Truth]

Sheriff predicts big increase in conceal-carry permits

By Brian Krans / Winona Daily News

Some Winona-area critics of a new state law portray the possibility of more Minnesotans carrying concealed handguns as a return to the Wild West.

"It's like in the movies where cowboys would ride into town, stop at the saloon and the sheriff would say, 'OK, boys, you can come and drink here, but you have to check your gun at the door," said Tom Overland, owner of The Bar in Goodview, Minn.

The Citizen's Personal Protection Act, which goes into effect Wednesday, will:

Give permit-holding Minnesotans the right to carry weapons into city halls, recreation centers, sports arenas and stadiums, state and county fairgrounds and parks.

Simplify the procedure and lower the standard for obtaining a permit to carry a handgun. As a result, according to the Faegre &amp; Benson law offices in Minneapolis, legislative sources estimate that the number of legally carried handguns in Minnesota will increase from about 12,000 to 100,000.

"It's going to shock people. That's my opinion," said Bob Cieminski, owner of the Lone Pine Gun Shop in Goodview.

Most people will have to become accustomed to seeing weapons in places they haven't previously seen them, Cieminski said.

Sheriff Dave Brand will be the issuing officer to those who qualify for permits in Winona County. In the past, applicants had to give Brand a reason why they would need a weapon - such as employment or self-protection.

Under the new law, a permit could be granted as long as the applicant has completed the necessary firearm training, is at least 21, is not a convicted felon or listed in the gang investigative data system or considered harmful.

More @ winonadailynews.com (http://www.winonadailynews.com/articles/2003/05/25/news/00lead.txt)

[Seeker of Truth]

Wes Skoglund: A regular utopia of firearms freedom
Wes Skoglund

Published May 25, 2003

Imagine a call-in radio show featuring a national gun lobbyist answering questions about Minnesota's new pistol-carrying law. Let's listen in:

"I want to thank you all and especially Gov. Pawlenty for rushin' this bill through. Those other states we lobby are just too deliberative; they spend too much time readin' bills and gettin' into details. Your guv signed it minutes after it passed. And if Minnesotans arm themselves just as fast, you can be a regular utopia of firearms freedom, like Mogadishu or Yemen.

"Let's get to the first caller; what's your question?"

"Yee haw! How do I get one of those gun permits?"

"Easy: Take a couple hours self-defense shootin' and deadly force course, plunk down the fee, show 'em a Xerox of your driver's license and you're licensed to pack some heat."

"I got in some trouble; spent a little time in the can on a few scrapes -- can I still carry?"

"What sort of crimes?"

"Little stuff, you know, window-peekin', indecent exposure, public brawlin' -- nothing much, really."

More @ startribune.com (http://www.startribune.com/stories/1519/3897911.html)

[Timberwolf]

[ QUOTE ]
Wes Skoglund, DFL-Minneapolis, is a member of the Minnesota Senate.

[/ QUOTE ]
Wes Skogland is a ****ing idiot...oh wait...my bad, he's a dimocrap...of COURSE he's an idiot.

He's just desperate and using every tired old argument that's been tried everywhere CCW has passed (and been proven NOT to be true). He knows that his party is about to lose a LOT of power when the Twin Cities metro area's crime rate falls by leaps and bounds. My guess is that the crime rate will be 15% -20% lower by the end of the first year.

[Radical-Conservative]

[ QUOTE ]
Timberwolf said:
Just sent this to Ms. Youso:

[/ QUOTE ]

let us know if you get a reply

[Timberwolf]

Will do...I'm curious as to what her response will be, should she respond. I will post any response I receive.

[Radical-Conservative]

[ QUOTE ]
magnummom said:
The scare tactics of the dems just don't seem to be having a very huge effect these days. Gotta love it.

[/ QUOTE ]

They worked in Missouri bigtime

[Seeker of Truth]

Sponsors plan to make last minute change in gun bill Watch video
Updated: 05-27-2003 11:42:38 AM

By PATRICK HOWE
Associated Press Writer

ST. PAUL (AP) - A day before it goes into effect, sponsors of a new handgun permit law plan to make changes to it, House Speaker Steve Sviggum said Tuesday.

The change would allow a business or church to simply post a sign if they want to keep handguns out of their buildings.

As the law is now written, someone would have to verbally tell people, in addition to posting a sign, that they don't want anyone carrying concealed guns in the building. Only then would state trespass laws kick in.

After the change, a sign would be sufficient.

"I think there is a legitimate mistake that was made," said Sviggum, R-Kenyon. He said the sponsors of the bill in the House and the Senate have agreed to the changes.

Sviggum said he expects the changes to pass Tuesday, and that the governor would sign the revision.

The proposal follows comments made by the governor and top aides Monday voicing concerns over that portion of the law, which he called "burdensome."

More @ kstp.com (http://www.kstp.com/article/view/99555/)

[Radical-Conservative]

[ QUOTE ]
magnummom said:
[

Ooops maybe i misunderstood something. I thought there was no c and c permits and they just had voted them in. Must got it mixed up??? wouldn't be the first time i did that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Youre Correct the missouri house and senate passed a version of CCW but our bedwetting socialist liberal pansy coward <font color="red">DEMON</font>c<font color="red">RAT</font> said he/IT will veto it

[Seeker of Truth]

Editorial: New right to carry / A bad idea is now a bad law


Published May 29, 2003 ED29

The hullabaloo that the new Minnesota Personal Protection Act has caused is just the beginning. The law is riddled with contradictions and infringements on rights that may take years to sort out. Indeed, wags have begun to call the law the "Full Employment for Lawyers Act of 2003."

Authors of the act say they did not intend that property owners have to both post signs banning guns and tell each person entering their establishments of the ban. The double requirement was a simple drafting error, they said, fixable with a mere change of one word. But their protestations ring hollow; they were challenged repeatedly about that provision during debate of the act, and they refused to consider amendments to fix it.

The authors of this new law meant it to say precisely what it said when they passed it and when Gov. Tim Pawlenty rushed to sign it. They were full of their power finally to enact this law. They wanted emphatically to make clear that the "right" to carry pistols trumps all other rights. That's why the law is so carefully, precisely written, down to specifying the typeface, type size and wording to be used on signs banning weapons.

The law declares that the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution confers the right of individuals to bear arms -- something to which the U.S. Supreme Court has never agreed. And, curiously, in pursuit of a radical assertion of that "right," the folks behind this new Minnesota law trample on other rights.

Take private property rights, for example. That's something most supporters of gun rights typically feel passionate about. But this gun law prohibits the owners of a rental property, for example, from denying tenants and guests the right to carry pistols. The tenant's statutory gun right trumps the owner's constitutional property rights.

More @ startribune.com (http://www.startribune.com/stories/561/3906771.html)

[Seeker of Truth]

82 Dakota County citizens apply for gun permits on first day
Posted: 5/30/03

by Laura Adelmann
Thisweek Newspapers

Some people have apparently been counting the minutes for Minnesota’s new conceal and carry law to go into effect.

By the stroke of midnight Tuesday, citizens began approaching the Dakota County Sheriff’s office to apply for permits allowing each to carry a concealed gun in public.

“We only accept applications during business hours,” explained Dakota County Sheriff Don Gudmundson, who added that there were about 12 people waiting to get their permit about 20 minutes before offices opened Wednesday morning.

By closing time, Gudmundson reported 82 people had applied for permits in Dakota County.

Gudmundson said the county would have had more applicants, but the inability to get training has created a bottleneck in the system.

To qualify for a permit, applicants must first pass a firearms safety class, like those offered by the National Rifle Association. (More information about classes is listed online at www.nra.org. (http://www.nra.org.))

The majority of those in the permit line right away, said Gudmundson, were “middle-aged white guys.”

“I don’t believe any of the people in line are going to need it — I think they have a better chance of winning the Power Ball. But, I am quick to acknowledge that I have no fear of any of those people carrying a gun,” he said.


More @ thisweek-online.com (http://www.thisweek-online.com/2003/May/30dcguns.html)

[Seeker of Truth]

Would-be pistol packers are surging to the gun shops
John Reinan, Star Tribune

Published May 31, 2003 GUN31

Area gun shops are reporting a surge of customer traffic as a result of Minnesota's new conceal-and-carry gun law.

People are signing up in droves for the required six-hour certification class. And sales of handguns -- along with accessories such as holsters, fanny packs and cleaning kits -- are reportedly on the rise.

"We're getting a lot of calls. The interest in handguns is really high," said Jeff Kempf, owner of Armored Fire Gun Shop &amp; Range, a gun shop and shooting range in Circle Pines. "We've got about 700 people signed up for the class."

At Cabela's, the sporting-goods giant in Owatonna, handgun sales on some recent days have been double the normal volume.

"It's dramatically increased the percentage of handgun sales as opposed to long gun sales," said Chad Garteski, manager of the hunting firearms department, referring to rifles and shotguns.

Garteski would not release actual sales figures but said media attention to the handgun issue is working in his store's favor.

"It's on the front page of every paper and it's on the news every time you turn around," he said. "So even people that wouldn't normally be interested are coming in to look."

More @ startribune.com (http://www.startribune.com/stories/535/3911277.html)

[Seeker of Truth]

For attorney David Gross, 'conceal-and-carry law' came none too soon
Jon Tevlin, Star Tribune

Published May 31, 2003 GROS31

A major player and legal consultant on Minnesota's new gun-permit law is a former board member of the National Rifle Association who was fired from the Minneapolis city attorney's office for opposing gun buy-back programs and carrying a gun to work.

He also acknowledges shooting a deer in his back yard in St. Louis Park with a .357-caliber Magnum handgun for eating his raspberries, pointing a rifle at a neighbor many years ago who he claimed was harassing his wife, and attending his synagogue armed with a handgun in case of trouble.

David Gross, the self-described "right-hand man" to Hamline law Prof. Joe Olson, worked with Sen. Pat Pariseau, R-Farmington, and Rep. Lynda Boudreau, R-Faribault, to create the bill, which makes it easier for Minnesotans to obtain a permit to carry a gun in public places.

Gross said he put in "countless" hours over the past four years advising on the bill, including writing the section that says Minnesota "recognizes and declares that the second amendment of the U.S. Constitution guarantees the fundamental, individual right to bear and keep arms."

Gross also said he helped Olson write the section that allows employers and universities to ban guns from their buildings but not from their parking lots. Gross has a national reputation as a gun law expert.

Sitting in his home in St. Louis Park shortly after the bill passed, Gross was ebullient as he discussed the legislative victory. One of the first things he did was show his prized possession: a high-powered Browning 9-millimeter pistol with German markings, given to him by a dying friend.

More @ startribune.com (http://www.startribune.com/stories/462/3911400.html)

[2nd_Amendment]

This is the sort of thing I always get a kick from. The gun-grabbers get people into a tizzy over the most absurd things. We've had CCW(shall-issue) in Indiana for over two decades, before Florida or most anyone else, and we have always been able to carry into bars, churches, damn near anywhere. Problems because of it? Zero.

Oh, aren't "high-powered" and "9mm" mutually exclusive?

[Timberwolf]

Exactly, 2A...here in ND, if you're a ND resident and pass the FBI background check, there's no waiting period. I walked out of a store 80 miles from here with my .40cal 45 minutes after I walked through the door.

I, personally, do not see the need for/nor the legality of CCW. One needs no permission/permit to exercise A RIGHT, permits are for exercising privileges.