Bush criticizes conservatives on immigration attitude.

[HooverWasRight]

Bush accuses anti's as using scare tatics..LOL. Hey
Bushkie that's what you used to get us in Iraq.

Nothing like a good ole income tax credit for someone who didn't earn it.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/29/us/29cnd-immig.html?ei=5065&en=14d081ab7d03c8a7&ex=1181102400&partner=MYWAY&pagewanted=print

[Rhino]

“If you want to scare the American people, what you say is the bill’s an amnesty bill,” Mr. Bush said...If you want to be honest with the American people, what you say is the bill’s an amnesty bill.

[Patriot Heart]

If you want to be honest with the American people you tell them it is the first step in the golden road to a North American Union. :flame:

[omegatrump]

What's the shrub got to lose now? He know's his cat is out of the bag, and the gullible won't play gullible anymore. He has never been a conservative. He won't have to run again and the conservative base he has spit on time and again are just "cattle".

[Wolfcounsel]

Our public servants need to pull their lips off the Mexicans' buttholes long enough to hear Americans tell them where to shove their amnesty bill.

[Lazarus]

One wonders why this man is so obsessed with forcing thru this legistlation that is so diametrically opposed to the will of the people who gave him his job... What is this man's motivation... He acts like this is the most important thing he has ever done in his life... He is willing to throw away the loyalty of his core base over this...

Is there anything George Bush wouldnt do to get this bill passed? The more he fights for this, the more it scares me...

Mr Bush, twice you took an oath as the Chief Executive to enforce the laws of this nation... You have violated that oath in the most gross and blantant terms by not only refusing to enforce our current immigration laws, but while doing so, ramroding your own personal agenda of giving these millions of law-breakers permanent legal status and eventual citizenship...

That action alone, IMO, is grounds for impeachment... And that is an Impeachment I would wholeheartedly support... You are a traitor to these United States and all the legal citizens of this country...

We will not back off from this fight, Mr Bush... You will learn a hard lesson about the fact that the Presidency is an elected position that serves by the will of the people, and is subject to the Constitution - It is not a Seat of Absolute Monarchy ordained by God... :flame:

[BuckeyeMike]

One wonders why this man is so obsessed with forcing thru this legistlation that is so diametrically opposed to the will of the people who gave him his job... What is this man's motivation... He acts like this is the most important thing he has ever done in his life... He is willing to throw away the loyalty of his core base over this...

His "core base" is Daddy Jorge and his ilk!

He's following Daddy Jorge's orders and whoever is giving Daddy Jorge his orders!

Is there anything George Bush wouldnt do to get this bill passed? The more he fights for this, the more it scares me...

there is nothing he won't do....especially if it is at yours and my expense!

Mr Bush, twice you took an oath as the Chief Executive to enforce the laws of this nation... You have violated that oath in the most gross and blantant terms by not only refusing to enforce our current immigration laws, but while doing so, ramroding your own personal agenda of giving these millions of law-breakers permanent legal status and eventual citizenship...

That's what Daddy Jorge wants...and what Daddy Jorge wants.........

That action alone, IMO, is grounds for impeachment... And that is an Impeachment I would wholeheartedly support... You are a traitor to these United States and all the legal citizens of this country...

Sticks & stones!!!!

We will not back off from this fight, Mr Bush... You will learn a hard lesson about the fact that the Presidency is an elected position that serves by the will of the people, and is subject to the Constitution - It is not a Seat of Absolute Monarchy ordained by God... :flame:

What lesson?....he doesn't give a shit.....he's done what he's been ordered to do....and now he will be out and living large.....at yours and my expense!! He will then be able to go out and play stink finger with his new brother Billy....or whatever it is that ex-Presidents do!

.

[Maggie_T]

This man is getting on my nerves. :flame:

If I could be dictator for a day, I'd make sure that Bush and those jokers in CONgress who support this amnesty for criminals would be tried for high treason against the USA. No, really. I consider this bill to be highly treasonous to this country. And it pisses me off royally.

[maxparrish]

This man is getting on my nerves. :flame:

If I could be dictator for a day, I'd make sure that Bush and those jokers in CONgress who support this amnesty for criminals would be tried for high treason against the USA. No, really. I consider this bill to be highly treasonous to this country. And it pisses me off royally.

Can I be the judge? How about the guy who pulls the lever on the trap door...pleeeeeease.

Serously, he is guilty of treason by any objective standard. He swore an oath and has sold out to Mexico - I would not shed a tear if he got justice.

[MrSanity]

I've lost pretty much all respect for the moron in the White House.

He's worse than a case of Clinton-lite.

Bush should clean up Iraq with his bare hands. And if he has any energy left afterwards, maybe he can do all "the jobs that Americans won't do."

[Maggie_T]

Can I be the judge? How about the guy who pulls the lever on the trap door...pleeeeeease.

Serously, he is guilty of treason by any objective standard. He swore an oath and has sold out to Mexico - I would not shed a tear if he got justice.

Ah, if Max agrees with me, then I must be right. :biggrin:

[Eagle1]

this effort to shape a legacy will make Bush look like carter

all the good he has done and taking the war to the terrorists will not be enough to make good with the black eye of amnesty

[HomeschoolrsRUs]

Like, at this point in time I give a rat's patoot about what President Bush says regarding illegal immigration?? :smirky:

He has lost ALL credibility on this issue, and has exhausted his chances of a "conservative legacy".

[Tracker2001]

My goodness I am gettign sick and tired of people saying that there is no way to get the illegals out of the country. Give me a break, here are some ways to do it.

#1: Put those that hire them in jail and fine them. They wont have jobs if we dont allow them to do so.
#2: SECURE THE BORDER, hold on let me say it one more time because people don't seem to get it "SECURE THE BORDER". The governments main job is to provide for the common defense, not line their friggin pockets.
#3: Deport them as we find them. This is the one that pisses me off more then anything. All I hear is "you can't deport 12 million at one time", NO $#^!. Deport them as you find them. Deport the criminals that over populate our prisons and are a drain on our people.
#4: If we are in need of foreign labor to do seasonal jobs, then give that chance to those that follow our laws.

If Mexico is takes offense to us securing OUR BORDER, tough I don't give a dang. Maybe the people of Mexico could have their own revolution and provide themselves with a better government "IN MEXICO". This isnt just about Mexicans either this is about all those that break our laws by showing no respect for our borders.

Sorry Mr. President, I will not support a bill on imigration that doesn't address the security of our border, punish those that help illegals break those laws, and doesn't deport those that break our laws. To be an American citizen should be something that must be earned, not given away.

[DesertFox]

Article 3 Section 3 of the Constitution: Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort.

Someone explain how Bush has committed treason. Nothing posted so far qualifies.

[DesertFox]

I am gettign sick and tired of people saying that there is no way to get the illegals out of the country. Give me a break, here are some ways to do it.

#1: Put those that hire them in jail and fine them. They wont have jobs if we dont allow them to do so.That's wonderful, but how does this get illegals out of the country?
#2: SECURE THE BORDER, hold on let me say it one more time because people don't seem to get it "SECURE THE BORDER". The governments main job is to provide for the common defense, not line their friggin pockets.
What does 'secure the border' mean? A wall? Shoot people as they come across? Man the 3,000-mile border with troops? cops? Plant land mines? Whatever you answer, it has to be something that will both work and pass muster in Congress, in the press and on the block. #3: Deport them as we find them. This is the one that pisses me off more then anything. All I hear is "you can't deport 12 million at one time", NO $#^!. Deport them as you find them. Deport the criminals that over populate our prisons and are a drain on our people.We've been deporting them for 50 years. It hasn't solved a thing.

[nene]

:claps::claps::claps::claps::claps::claps::claps:: claps:
What DF said.

[hellinon]

What does 'secure the border' mean? A wall? Shoot people as they come across? Man the 3,000-mile border with troops? cops? Plant land mines?


All 5

[nene]

Yeah, but that only works in movies. Unless of course you'd prefer it to be like the 38th parallel. In this country? No way it'll happen.

[Maggie_T]

Article 3 Section 3 of the Constitution:

Someone explain how Bush has committed treason. Nothing posted so far qualifies.

(shrugs) I don't care if it's not mentioned in the Consitution. In my book, he committed treason by allowing the country to be invaded by people who DO NOT want to assimilate the culture of this country because they hate her. By signing the amnesty bill, Bush would turn this country into a huge welfare state ... for foreigners who hate us.

That may not be treason according to the Constitution. But it certainly is in the Book of Maggie. :flame:

[M.C.]

What does 'secure the border' mean? A wall? Shoot people as they come across? Man the 3,000-mile border with troops? cops? Plant land mines?
All 5
I agree:claps: All 5 indeed.

[DesertFox]

Good. Then we agree on that, anyway.

[nene]

Let's not forget, these illegal immigrants are being helped by people on our side. A person that hires an illegal is no better than the illegal. If you think about it, they knowingly hire illegals despite the adverse effect illegals have on this country.

[DesertFox]

Don't agree. I hire illegals to work on my house because they do just as good work, they charge half as much, they don't try to gouge me, they don't keep looking at their watches and the govt doesn't steal 40% of what I pay them. I also hired illegal plumbers to fix my plumbing when it went out, and for the same reasons, except instead of costing half as much as a union plumber, they cost about a third or a quarter as much and do everything I ask without adding on this and that.

It's the govt's job to keep illegals out, not my job to not hire the best man I can find at the best price.

[nene]

Don't agree. I hire illegals to work on my house because they do just as good work, they charge half as much, they don't try to gouge me, they don't keep looking at their watches and the govt doesn't steal 40% of what I pay them. I also hired illegal plumbers to fix my plumbing when it went out, and for the same reasons, except instead of costing half as much as a union plumber, they cost about a third or a quarter as much and do everything I ask without adding on this and that.

It's the govt's job to keep illegals out, not my job to not hire the best man I can find at the best price.

But then if you complain about all the illegals you'd be a hypocrite. Furthermore, wouldn't that make you a criminal? If no, then you wouldn't be breaking the law. Then if you are not breaking the law, enforcing the current laws would be useless in combating illegal immigration. Then the arguement for enforcing the laws is without merit.

But then again, as you said, it's the governments job to handle immigration, not yours.

Civic responsibilty, where art thou?

Are you better or worse than the illegal? Remember, that is what you disagreed with.

[Tracker2001]

Im not going to agree with the landmine theory, but everything else you said is reasonable Fox. When I was in the Corps we sent a small squad down to the border every year. We were not allowed to be armed, we couldn't stop anyone (orders), all they wanted us to do was monitor the situation and call the INS (or ICE now). So since we already have small units at the border, why not more?

As for the question "That's wonderful, but how does this get illegals out of the country?" Well since the border is about more then just one answer, it requires much more then one thing to stop the insanity. If they can't find a home here, or a job here, or have their kids go to our schools. Then why would they come? If you make it so they cant rent an apartment, or get work which means you make it so risky for those that hire illegals, that they dont take the chance. Then the illegals will not come.

We have been deporting them for over 50 years. Come on please tell me that you dont believe that with all your heart? They have been deporting illegals yes, but have they been deporting them consitently? Sending a few hundred out of thousands caught is not deportation.

How many illegals over populate our jails? How many have been caught only to be let go the next day? How about this one. How many city's or states have laws that prevent law enforcement from even asking about their legal status? There are people within our government that are undermining the system.

I understand that we may or may not need them to work in certain jobs to help our economey. I only say lets do it legally. You dont think they wouldn't line up for a chance to come here and work legally, if there were no other way for them to come here and work?

I admit that when I wrote what I did it was out of frustration. That doesn't mean that it cant be done. If we as Americans are willing to do what is easy, in place of what is right, then when will it end? The situation with our border is going to be difficult, doing the right thing always is.

If you want to do it the easy way then at least have the back bone to admit that it is an amnesty with no real answer for the future security of the states (This is a general statement to all Americans, not a direct statement to you FireFox).

[DesertFox]

Well, you see, guys, youse (and others) are coming up all tough on illegals. But if you were put there on the border with a rifle in your hand and told to shoot anybody who tried to cross illegally, would you do it? Some will lie and say, with great enthusiasm, that they would do it gladly. Yeah, they might, until that cute little girl with long black hair and shining dark eyes is in the cross hairs, the one who looks just like their own daughter.

Same thing with renting to them, or selling groceries to them, or whatever. It's so easy to talk tough. Not so easy to BE tough. Because when the law really does get tough, it always tends to waaaaay overshoot. You end up with Bull Connor enforcing the law, loosing vicious dogs on people.

But there is no middle ground. If you aren't absolute in your application of the law, you don't stop illegals. Enforcement has to be harsh, even to the point of death, or you end up with what we've had these last 30 years. But when you enforce it harshly, you don't like what you end up with. It attracts the vicious element.

No, nene, I'm not a hypocrite. Perhaps to you, but not to myself. This is my country, founded on the principle of I take care of me and you take care of you. That WAS the sense of civic responsibility. It kept the govt out of both our lives. Not to mention that I owe nothing to the govt that taxes me to the point that I take home about 60% what I supposedly earn. Not to mention that, as a teacher, I do more in the way of civic responsibility in a month than most Americans do their whole lives. Not to mention that I spent 21 years in Uncle Sam's Army, doing my civic responsibility and carrying the load of civic responsibility for a whole lotta others.

I expect the govt to do its job. Vis-a-vis illegal migration, Bush isn't doing it. Clinton didn't. Bush I didn't. Reagan didn't. Ford didn't. Carter sure as hell didn't. Nixon didn't. Johnson didn't. Before then it didn't matter.

[DesertFox]

(shrugs) I don't care if it's not mentioned in the Consitution. I see. We run the country according to Queen Maggie, then? The idea of the Constitution was to run the country by it. If you don't agree with that, then how are you different from others who want to run it their way?

Don't get me wrong. I'm as upset as you, and prolly more so because it's MY state and MY capital city that are being overrun with illegals. The thieves who steal bicycles out of my back yard at night. The assholes without insurance who drive like maniacs, run into me and run off. The shitbirds whose brats fill up the hospitals MY taxes help pay for, and get treatment for free. The pieces of shit whose daughters fill up the school I taught in and then cried sexual harassment over nothing and cost me my job.

Yeah, this issue has a whole lot more personal meaning for me than it does for pert near anybody else here.

But we either do things in a legitimate way or it's might makes right. In this thread you sound perilously close to opting for might makes right.

[nene]

No, nene, I'm not a hypocrite. Perhaps to you, but not to myself. This is my country, founded on the principle of I take care of me and you take care of you. That WAS the sense of civic responsibility. It kept the govt out of both our lives. Not to mention that I owe nothing to the govt that taxes me to the point that I take home about 60% what I supposedly earn. Not to mention that, as a teacher, I do more in the way of civic responsibility in a month than most Americans do their whole lives. Not to mention that I spent 21 years in Uncle Sam's Army, doing my civic responsibility and carrying the load of civic responsibility for a whole lotta others.

I expect the govt to do its job. Vis-a-vis illegal migration, Bush isn't doing it. Clinton didn't. Bush I didn't. Reagan didn't. Ford didn't. Carter sure as hell didn't. Nixon didn't. Johnson didn't. Before then it didn't matter.
Civic responsibility has little to do with the government (except voting) but rather the responsibility one has to society. The government may not be doing it's job, but many people on this of the border are complicit in the illegal immigration problem. Yet often missing in the dialogue of illegal immigration is what consequences must these facilitators receive. You disagreed with my previous post, and didn't address it in your post.

The question is, are you better or worse than the illegal immigrants? Why?

[Tracker2001]

But if you were put there on the border with a rifle in your hand and told to shoot anybody who tried to cross illegally, would you do it?


Do you actually see that as an option? Lets take it a new way. We have troops on the border and they arrest and then deport all those that they find crossing our border. I understand the shock approach your going with to proove your point but lets not get carried away.

Also it isn't just your state that is being over burdened anymore. I would say that most states waste on average around 100 million in hospital visits for illegals. In my state what they do is only go to the hospital when it is an imergency situation (because the hospital can't ask for insurence or legal status in those cases). So they get treatment and then they don't have to pay, very nice huh. So who do you think pays those bills?

[DesertFox]

are you better or worse than the illegal immigrants? Why?Better. Not "better" in any cosmic sense, but in the legal sense, meaning I'm a tax paying US citizen and they're not, meaning I'm carrying my civic load and they aren't. If they carry their own load, they're as good a citizen as I am.

Civic responsibility has everything to do with govt, because without govt society can't exist. That's what Thomas Hobbes taught us in Leviathan. However, I understand and agree with what you mean here -- to a point. You're talking about what's usually called "giving something back." I think that way of saying it sucks, but I know that if people aren't personally involved in keeping their neighborhoods clean and safe, then their neighborhoods won't be clean and safe. If they aren't personally involved in their kids' schooling and schools, that schooling and those schools will be at best mediocre.

And you see, I'm very much involved in this sort of thing. Illegals aren't. But latinos generally tend not to be involved that way, which is a big part of the reason their own govts don't work.

[DesertFox]

Do you actually see that as an option? Yes, I do. But unlike most people, I face it squarely. Most people talk wild talk without considering what it means on the ground -- shooting beautiful dark haired little girls who look just like their own daughters. But once Mexicans understand we're deadly serious about enforcing immigration law, the flood will stop right now.

Lets take it a new way. We have troops on the border and they arrest and then deport all those that they find crossing our border. As I noted earlier, we've been doing that for 50 years with no success because the rest of the system is broke. Rather than spend a trillion bucks on an idiotic fence, spend a few cents on a handful of rounds, a couple hundred on some cheap caskets and a spot of ground in the desert nobody cares about. I understand the shock approach your going with to proove your point but lets not get carried away. If you're not willing to go all the way with this, my friend, you're not serious. Every other option has been tried, more than once, more than twice, and has failed. Also it isn't just your state that is being over burdened anymore.No doubt. But it's been going on here for two decades, and at a level and rate that no other state even approaches with the possible exceptions of New Mexico and Texas, and parts of California.

[BuckeyeMike]

Not sure about the "treason" charge....but it sounds good to me....however, I think Jorge W. Boosh could be brought up on charges of Malfeasance of Office...overall, I think a "No Confidence" vote, were it to be brought up to the public would tell the tale....but then, damn near every politician since (and including) FDR could be looked at the same way...........but the Malfeasance charge, to me, holds water!

[MrSanity]

Rather than spend a trillion bucks on an idiotic fence, spend a few cents on a handful of rounds, a couple hundred on some cheap caskets and a spot of ground in the desert nobody cares about.I don't think we need to stoop so low as to enact a "Final Solution."

The fence is our one chance to stop future invaders from breaking the law. Congress would never approve the Final Solution mindset, even if they suddenly opposed amnesty.

[DesertFox]

Let's not confuse the issue with misused terminology.

The "Final Solution" was genocide writ large. Shooting illegal immigrants who otherwise refuse to comply with the law isn't genocide; it's law enforcement.

Words mean things.

[nene]

Better. Not "better" in any cosmic sense, but in the legal sense, meaning I'm a tax paying US citizen and they're not, meaning I'm carrying my civic load and they aren't. If they carry their own load, they're as good a citizen as I am.

Civic responsibility has everything to do with govt, because without govt society can't exist. That's what Thomas Hobbes taught us in Leviathan. However, I understand and agree with what you mean here -- to a point. You're talking about what's usually called "giving something back." I think that way of saying it sucks, but I know that if people aren't personally involved in keeping their neighborhoods clean and safe, then their neighborhoods won't be clean and safe. If they aren't personally involved in their kids' schooling and schools, that schooling and those schools will be at best mediocre.

And you see, I'm very much involved in this sort of thing. Illegals aren't. But latinos generally tend not to be involved that way, which is a big part of the reason their own govts don't work.But you see, if they are not paying their taxes, is because the employers are facilitating them not paying their taxes. By the way the employers are not paying the taxes either. Both are criminals. Whose better? Neither, both are equal. One could argue that the employer is worse since it is his nation after all.

Illegals by their very nature cannot assimilate into society in order to become civic minded individuals because of their status, and rightly so. They shouldn't be here in the first place.

Here's the thing, if the consequences of illegal immigration are as bad as we believe, then we as U.S. citizens have an obligation to not in any way support illegal immigration. By knowingly hiring an illegal, one supports this practice.

I can't see how the opposite is true.

[nene]

Let's not confuse the issue with misused terminology.

The "Final Solution" was genocide writ large. Shooting illegal immigrants who otherwise refuse to comply with the law isn't genocide; it's law enforcement.

Words mean things.What law allows the shooting of illegal immigrants for sake of being here illegally?

[DesertFox]

By knowingly hiring an illegal, one supports this practice.

I can't see how the opposite is true.I can. Those who hire by the thousands, or the hundreds, THEY are the ones who attract illegals. If illegals knew that the only way they could earn a living here were pick up jobs here and there as handymen, some would still come but most would stay home because that living is too uncertain.

Your point isn't lost on me. I'm speaking as a practical matter. I'm very much aware of the principle involved and agree with you -- in principle. But when things have degraded to the point they are, where govt itself doesn't give a hoot, then standing on principle becomes almost silly. I gave up a job rather than fight to keep it because I thought there was a principle involved. I lost the job, but no one cared about the principle.

We're living in a transitional time. Either we'll reestablish ourselves or we'll just dissolve away.

[DesertFox]

What law allows the shooting of illegal immigrants for sake of being here illegally?None. You must have lost track of the discussion.

[nene]

Let's not confuse the issue with misused terminology.

The "Final Solution" was genocide writ large. Shooting illegal immigrants who otherwise refuse to comply with the law isn't genocide; it's law enforcement.

Words mean things. Was commenting on this post.

[DesertFox]

MrSanity wanted to make it appear that shooting illegals as they crossed the border was a Nazi thing to do, so he called it a Final Solution approach.

[nene]

I can. Those who hire by the thousands, or the hundreds, THEY are the ones who attract illegals. If illegals knew that the only way they could earn a living here were pick up jobs here and there as handymen, some would still come but most would stay home because that living is too uncertain.

Your point isn't lost on me. I'm speaking as a practical matter. I'm very much aware of the principle involved and agree with you -- in principle. But when things have degraded to the point they are, where govt itself doesn't give a hoot, then standing on principle becomes almost silly. I gave up a job rather than fight to keep it because I thought there was a principle involved. I lost the job, but no one cared about the principle.

We're living in a transitional time. Either we'll reestablish ourselves or we'll just dissolve away. Then we agree to disagree.:thumb:

[nene]

MrSanity wanted to make it appear that shooting illegals as they crossed the border was a Nazi thing to do, so he called it a Final Solution approach.I don't know if it is a Nazi thing to do, but it is barbaric. Who do you shoot? Juan, Maria, or Arturo? Maria ain't carrying a baby, but she got one inside her. Juan got a family 300 miles south he keeps in mind as he illegally attempt to cross the border. Arturo is piece of shit, crack peddling gangster. My vote, Arturo needs a .45 in the brain. But I'm not pulling the trigger and the person who is don't know Arturo needs killing and the others don't.

But there ain't no way I can support anything that calls for killing good folks looking for good things.

Let's be clear, we do need to STOP illegal immigration. It's just very complicated is all. Life is that way.

[DesertFox]

Agreed. That has been my main point in all these discussions. And will continue to be.

Howsomever, we need only establish our seriousness on this one issue, and the entire world will benefit from the message that we mean what we say. We live in a world that wants good things but whines and convulses against the predictable consequences. Porous borders not only let nice people in, but lunatic Izzies who will bomb us without mercy.

We either get serious about it or one day we will indeed see a suitcase nuke go off in a major US city.

[nene]

We either get serious about it or one day we will indeed see a suitcase nuke go off in a major US city.True.

[DoctorDoom]

But there ain't no way I can support anything that calls for killing good folks looking for good things.If they were "good folks" they'd obey our laws and apply legally for citizenship. The fact that they know they are violating US laws and do so willfully removes them from the "good folks".

The reluctance of candy-assed, touchy-feely gringos to so much as say a harsh word has resulted in a minimum of 12 million of the criminals balkanizing America, destroying cities, undermining and fragmenting communities, making neighborhoods unlivable except for their own repulsive ilk, leeching off US taxpayer dollars, defying our laws with impunity, dragging down our medical system, and marching boldly in the streets demanding "rights".

They come in by the millions precisely because they know the US won't do a f**king thing to stop them. Those are NOT "good folks". They are vermin and they need pest control.

Who do you shoot? Juan, Maria, or Arturo?All of them. And leave their rotting carcases there as a warning to the next wave.

[nene]

Madness or hyperbole. Gotta be one or the other, cuz you can't possibly be serious.

[DoctorDoom]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v349/DocDoom777/Patriotic/WaynPress1-640.jpg

[DoctorDoom]

Madness or hyperbole. Gotta be one or the other, cuz you can't possibly be serious.I'm serious. It's a seriousness born of seeing the consequences of border policy dictated by pathetic, spineless, gutless, weak-kneed, appeasing whiners who aren't serious.

[Tracker2001]

The border can be secured if your serious about securing it, and it doesn't require summary executions. To say that the only way to be serious about securing the border, is to execute people that try to enter our nation is rediculous. Stop them at the border, build a wall or fence, and have the troops defend our borders. If they try to enter capture them, finger print them, get pictures, store them in a database and then send their butts back to their own country.

Those that might get through will find it a place where they can't find a job, or a home here. With no way to make a living they will have no choice but to get the hell out of here. Also I don't know you Fox but don't tell me I am not being serious just because I dont want to execute people at our borders when it isnt nessassary "yet". If it comes to us protecting ourselves when the other options have failed then so be it. Right now the other options have not even been tried, and you want to line them up and execute people?

Also please give up this myth that we have tried the deportation angle when that is a government joke of massive proportions. Yes we have deported few, but not most. Lets put it this way, we capture 100 the government might deport 15 out of the 100. Lets go for the perfect score and deport 100% of those we capture. Any illegal that is sentenced with murder against a border agent, soldier, or any citizen will be put to death.

We have not denied the illegals jobs. By punishing the employeers with heavy fines, and jail time the risk will be too high for them to save a few bucks on some cheap slave labor. Say a fine of $50,000 per illegal and a minimum of 2 years for each illegal. That kind of system would discourage employeers from hiring these illegals. They would also check and then double check the status of the person they hire to protect their own butts. This is not being tried right now and it sure as hell is not in this weak amnisty bill.

We have not denied the illegals homes in our nation. Because we have to many wimps in the government right now. Please don't sit there and say we have tried everything when it is obvious we haven't, it underminds your chances at being taken with any seriousness.

[DesertFox]

To say that the only way to be serious about securing the border, is to execute people that try to enter our nation is rediculous. I agree. Did someone say it was the only way? On the other hand, it's certainly the cheapest and surest way. Stop them at the border, build a wall or fence, and have the troops defend our borders. If they try to enter capture them, finger print them, get pictures, store them in a database and then send their butts back to their own country. Yeah, right. We been doing that forever. It hasn't worked. Also, I don't know if it was serious, but I read an estimate that a fence would cost a trillion bucks. Those that might get through will find it a place where they can't find a job, or a home here. With no way to make a living they will have no choice but to get the hell out of here.What makes you think so? What will change in America to make that the case? Also I don't know you Fox but don't tell me I am not being serious just because I dont want to execute people at our borders when it isnt nessassary "yet". So tell us when it does become "necessary." you want to line them up and execute people? I don't recall saying anything about lining anybody up. it underminds your chances at being taken with any seriousness.I think YOU are the one who has little chance of being taken seriously on this issue, Tracker. You obviously have no feel whatsoever for just how pissed off America is about illegals.

My prollem with fining employers is that we're punishing Americans rather than illegals for something that's the govt's fault. Your approach just takes us right back to the govt telling us whom we can hire and whom we can't, sort of a reverse affirmative action approach. We conservatives been trying to get the govt out of that business and you want to put it smack square in the center of it again? Not buying that argument, my friend.

[maxparrish]

Well, you see, guys, youse (and others) are coming up all tough on illegals. But if you were put there on the border with a rifle in your hand and told to shoot anybody who tried to cross illegally, would you do it? ...

Same thing with renting to them, or selling groceries to them, or whatever. It's so easy to talk tough. Not so easy to BE tough...

But there is no middle ground. If you aren't absolute in your application of the law, you don't stop illegals. Enforcement has to be harsh,...

No, nene, I'm not a hypocrite. Perhaps to you, but not to myself. This is my country, founded on the principle of I take care of me and you take care of you. That WAS the sense of civic responsibility. It kept the govt out of both our lives. Not to mention that I owe nothing to the govt that taxes me to the point that I take home about 60% what I supposedly earn. Not to mention that, as a teacher, I do more in the way of civic responsibility in a month than most Americans do their whole lives. Not to mention that I spent 21 years in Uncle Sam's Army, doing my civic responsibility and carrying the load of civic responsibility for a whole lotta others.

I expect the govt to do its job. Vis-a-vis illegal migration, Bush isn't doing it. Clinton didn't. Bush I didn't. Reagan didn't. Ford didn't. Carter sure as hell didn't. Nixon didn't. Johnson didn't. Before then it didn't matter.

All your points are well taken. We all work within a system of rules - some are laws and others are unspoken 'winks' and 'nods'. We may find some of those rules to be destructive of our country, and we ardently wish to change them, but none of us are obligated to sacrifice our own well being by carrying on a one-person crusade to fight illegals while an entire society and its leaders sacrifice our nation-hood.

As supporters of the free market and liberty we still play the game. We 'play the game' when we pay our taxes so it can be used to subsidize others who also play the game (by becoming welfare burdens); we play the game when we borrow government funds (or take their grants) to go to school; we play the game when we use the services of State funded companies (US Postal Service) and state monopoly utilities; we play the game when we claim tax refunds or deductions for reasons that are legal, but we think are stupid or bogus; we play the game when we comply with local ordinances that tell you what you can do with your house, or when you buy remodeling permits to pay the tax man, or trim your trees with a permit, or refuse to fight an unwarranted traffic ticket because it takes too much time.

And we also play the game when we only hire plumbers or repairmen with state issued licenses, or go to hair stylists that also have to get state certifications, even if a free market should allow us to hire any fellow citizen in our compact. And DF also plays the game when he follows the "wink and nod" rules of hiring illegals that everyone else follows, he is not doing anything wrong.

We don't make the rules, we are not compelled to challenge them against our own self-interest BUT we can express our own view of them and try to change them - we can make a judgment!

My rules for living in two worlds - the personal and the societal - is simple:

On the personal, honor ethical and moral treatment of others.
On the social-political, fight for rules and policies that honor the nation.

Each have their realm.


PS...To give you an example. I know a gal that I think is an illegal. Should my set of rules be adopted, she would likely be deported. None the less, she is a good person and is trying to get ahead by going to JR. College at night. I would hope she could remain, I would give her the name of an attorney that might help her, I would vouch for her among the decision makers, I would remind her that at least the money she saved would take her far in Mexico...but I would still support the new rules.

[dPrasse]

I agree. Did someone say it was the only way? On the other hand, it's certainly the cheapest and surest way.

It is also a way that will be taken seriously ...

Build a fence , arm the troops , stop jailing border agents for doing their jobs ...

This border problem relates to
The War on Terror
The War on Drugs
The War on Poverty

[maxparrish]

The border can be secured if your serious about securing it, and it doesn't require summary executions. To say that the only way to be serious about securing the border, is to execute people that try to enter our nation is ridiculous. Stop them at the border, build a wall or fence, and have the troops defend our borders. If they try to enter capture them, finger print them, get pictures, store them in a database and then send their butts back to their own country.

True, but the best way is to do everything you suggest plus the following:

- Create a free fire zone 5 miles deep into Mexico. Anything living that moves get's "cleaned" by gunships and artillery fire. A border covered by machine guns, mortars, etc. could be automated with detection devices and can do final cleanup.

- Display those killed on stakes, on the border. I call it "solving the failure to communicate, Roman style". Excess bodies can be sent back to the President of Mexico, with a kind note attached.

- Those arrested alive need to be sent to hard labor detention camps. Dressed in orange jump suits, living in tents, they can help build the walls by breaking rocks. If any die during their desert vacation, they can be buried in the walls.

- Those who overstay their VISA for more than a year need arrested and grouped in long public marches - chained in glorious processionals and used as slave labor for public works. After 10 years they can be sold back to their countries of origin.

[dPrasse]

You can't have a "Free Fire" zone 5 miles inside Mexico without a declaration of war .... not a bad idea , but ,I'm sure this admin would botch that and Santa Anna would over run the SW ...

Fences ,mine fields and ground pounders backed with air power in the form of remote drones ...

[Maggie_T]

I see. We run the country according to Queen Maggie, then? The idea of the Constitution was to run the country by it. If you don't agree with that, then how are you different from others who want to run it their way?

Don't get me wrong. I'm as upset as you, and prolly more so because it's MY state and MY capital city that are being overrun with illegals. The thieves who steal bicycles out of my back yard at night. The assholes without insurance who drive like maniacs, run into me and run off. The shitbirds whose brats fill up the hospitals MY taxes help pay for, and get treatment for free. The pieces of shit whose daughters fill up the school I taught in and then cried sexual harassment over nothing and cost me my job.

Yeah, this issue has a whole lot more personal meaning for me than it does for pert near anybody else here.

But we either do things in a legitimate way or it's might makes right. In this thread you sound perilously close to opting for might makes right.

Honey, you know I love you to death. But in this thread you sound tediously close to being argumentative for the sake of it.

Of course, the idea is to run the country by the Constitution (though you'd never guess it by the way our Imperial Officials act). Not to mention the fact that just because I talk about the Book of Maggie said book means shit to anybody else BUT Maggie. Do you really think that because I get on my soapbox and say that Bush and CONgress commit treason against the country, people are immediately going to jump up, shout Huzzah! and take arms to defend our country? Joe and Jane Doe? At best, they'll be too busy watching TV wrestling/Oprah to pay enough attention to what I say to get to the conclusion that I'm a nutcase who should be kept in a padded cell for my own good.

If you think that just because I bitch on the internet, I will start The Great Revolution, you give my power of influence waaaaay more credit than it deserves. I can start 20 threads, trying to harrangue the masses in each of them, and the only thing I'll get for my trouble is more people telling me to STFU and be Consitutional.

As I said in another thread, I'm going to use my freedom of opinion to vent my frustration by saying the most outrageous things. And I'm going to do it before even that freedom is taken away from me. And that's all I've been doing here, and elsewhere.

So don't worry, ducky. Nothing will happen ... and this country will go to hell, speaking Spanish, in a Mexican-woven basket. But, hey. At least it will happen in a "legitimate" way.

Oh, and Fox, love? If this country were run according to Queen Maggie, you wouldn't have to worry about the thieves who steal bicycles out of your back yard at night, or the assholes without insurance who drive like maniacs, or the shitbirds whose brats fill up the hospitals YOUR taxes help pay for, and get treatment for free, or the pieces of shit whose daughters fill up the school you taught in and then cried sexual harassment over nothing and cost you your job.

So show a little more respect for Her Frustrated Majesty. Comprendes? :biggrin:

[dPrasse]

All Hail Queen Maggie !!

She calls to Arms and we yell HUZZAH !!!

Is it coincidence that another powerful ,wonderful woman in the 80's was a Maggie ? :D

[Bluemoon_Rising]

Yeah, but that only works in movies. Unless of course you'd prefer it to be like the 38th parallel. In this country? No way it'll happen.

Closing down the border is possible and well within the reach of budget and the poltical will of the people.

The real issue comes down to this: will the people get pissed off and insistant enough to blow off the majority of the MSM and elitist pols and put a president in office who will make border security the first and foremost priority?

[Wolfcounsel]

"Let's be clear, we do need to STOP illegal immigration. It's just very complicated is all. Life is that way." --nene

The most effective way to stop cockroaches is to remove all goodies from their reach.


Eliminate all government handouts to everyone!
Stop welfare!

Tell the damned mollycoddling public servants to shove their sympathies and compassions up their buttholes, publicly! Screw any respect for cockroach keepers!:flame:<!-- / message -->

[DesertFox]

Mags, if you wusn't so good-lookin' I wouldn't luv you so much. :D

[Maggie_T]

Aw, thank you kindly, dPrasse. http://foolstown.com/sm/rev.gif

[Maggie_T]

Mags, if you wusn't so good-lookin' I wouldn't luv you so much. :D


Aw, thank you, too, love. It's all in the brain, you know. :evilgrin:

[Timberwolf]

I see. We run the country according to Queen Maggie, then? The idea of the Constitution was to run the country by it. If you don't agree with that, then how are you different from others who want to run it their way?

Don't get me wrong. I'm as upset as you, and prolly more so because it's MY state and MY capital city that are being overrun with illegals. The thieves who steal bicycles out of my back yard at night. The assholes without insurance who drive like maniacs, run into me and run off. The shitbirds whose brats fill up the hospitals MY taxes help pay for, and get treatment for free. The pieces of shit whose daughters fill up the school I taught in and then cried sexual harassment over nothing and cost me my job.

Yeah, this issue has a whole lot more personal meaning for me than it does for pert near anybody else here.

But we either do things in a legitimate way or it's might makes right. In this thread you sound perilously close to opting for might makes right.
Mexico has declared economic "war" on us by encouraging the dregs of her society to flood north. By trying to grant them amnesty, he may not truly be committing treason, according to the "giving aid and comfort" clause, but he's dangerously close to it.

[The_Elucidator]

The assholes without insurance who drive like maniacs, run into me and run off.

Oh, I most certainly hear you on this one! I work by a school zone and I have almost gotten into a couple of fist fights with folks with Mexico license plates who feel it necessary to ignore those yellow blinking lights and signs that say 20 MPH when children are present and pass cars going in excess of 45 MPH. I will lay on the horn and flash my lights while following their sorry asses until we reach the end of the zone; at which point they have had enough and are ready to throw down. I actually got one busted when a nearby cop responded to the constant horn blowing, but far too many get away with it. You can rest assured that if one of these retards hits a child they will race for the border just 5 min away never to be seen again.

[Rhino]

All Hail Queen Maggie !!

She calls to Arms and we yell HUZZAH !!!Huzzah???? :question:

Gotta be more Americanized when you're talkin shootin illegals, dude! :evilgrin:

[DesertFox]

he may not truly be committing treason, according to the "giving aid and comfort" clause, but he's dangerously close to it.No. Words mean things. The clear context here is "enemies," and Congress is nowhere close to declaring war on Mexico, which is the onliest way Mexicans could become our enemies in the sense of giving aid and comfort.

Admittedly, there has to be some give-and-go here. We were never formally at war with N. Vietnam yet they were clearly our enemies. But Mexicans aren't, as a matter of national policy, making war on us. That's the difference.

[omegatrump]

Yeah, but that only works in movies. Unless of course you'd prefer it to be like the 38th parallel. In this country? No way it'll happen.

It's worked fairly well in Korea. There are a lot of countries that secure their borders. Have you ever drove across Mexico?

[dPrasse]

Huzzah???? :question:

Gotta be more Americanized when you're talkin shootin illegals, dude! :evilgrin:

What do you suggest ?
Singing "100 Illegals on the Fence" ? (Done to the tune of 100 Beers on the wall ...)


Or just yell hoo hah !

[M.C.]

No. Words mean things. The clear context here is "enemies," and Congress is nowhere close to declaring war on Mexico, which is the onliest way Mexicans could become our enemies in the sense of giving aid and comfort.

Admittedly, there has to be some give-and-go here. We were never formally at war with N. Vietnam yet they were clearly our enemies. But Mexicans aren't, as a matter of national policy, making war on us. That's the difference.

Those illegally crossing are invading our country. It is a massive ground invasion. Granted, they don't have weapons (well some of them actually do), and they aren't killing our people (actually some are) doesn't that make them enemies?

[DesertFox]

Come on, MC. If you're gonna talk that way, I can say the Japanese invade us every summer. So do the Germans and the Brits. We invade them regularly.

Let's not change the standard meaning of words to suit our convenience.

[M.C.]

Enemy- one that is antagonistic to another; especially : one seeking to injure, overthrow, or confound an opponent.

That sounds like illegal immigrants to me.

[DesertFox]

No doubt it does. Also sounds like my stupid neighbor, to me.

There's nothing wrong with the metaphorical use of words -- until you begin to act as if the metaphor weren't just a metaphor, but literal reality. Unfortunately, we been seein' a lotta that lately around here.

[DoctorDoom]

It's like this: when a foreign government aids and abets the illegal entry of tens of millions of its dregs (often criminals) into the US, gives them provisions and maps for the trip, uses its embassies to instruct the illegal "immigrants" in how to become parasites on our health and education systems, assails us when we speak of stemming the influx with barriers on our own soil, uses the invaders to traffic in drugs, and does not one f**king thing to stop the invasion from its side of the border, that foreign government is an enemy.

Mexico's grip on America's balls is spelled O-I-L. They are second only to Canada as a source of imported petroleum. We will give them blow jobs on prime time if that's what it takes to keep the black gold flowing. And NOTHING will ever be done to stop the invasion as long as we are liplocked on their asses because of our dependency. Is it worth balkanizing America to keep that stuff flowing?

IMO, many problems could be addressed simultaneously by purging this country of the arsewipes who demand that we bend over and grab ankles every time a Mexicriminal gets a woody, while they paralyze the exploitation of America's domestic oil resources that would reduce our economic thralldom to Meheeco.

And as for little Conchita with her long black hair, her size just makes her a smaller target. Pffffffft!

[Timberwolf]

Come on, MC. If you're gonna talk that way, I can say the Japanese invade us every summer. So do the Germans and the Brits. We invade them regularly.

Let's not change the standard meaning of words to suit our convenience.
C'mon...the Japanese, Germans and Brits spend cash here and then GO HOME...and are here LEGALLY. And, don't know about you, but I go through CUSTOMS when I travel abroad. That isn't 'invading', that's visiting with the host country's blessings.

Yes, words DO have certain meanings...let's not be clouding the issue. The Mexican GOVERNMENT is giving maps to their dregs to knowingly HELP them illegally cross the border. The gov't is aiding and abetting the commission of a felony...with malice and forethought.

I'd say that constitutes an act of war. Bush is complicit by doing nothing to send them home.

[Rhino]

What do you suggest ?
Singing "100 Illegals on the Fence" ? (Done to the tune of 100 Beers on the wall ...)


Or just yell hoo hah !:question:

Yee hah? Woopee? Hee Haw! That's American! :rotflmbo: