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maxparrish
05-30-2007, 08:37 PM
I am wondering...is there an appropriate term for commentary that mocks the truth and ignores reason - one that does not quite rise to the level of a knowing pack of cynical lies, but is far more intentional than delusion, stupidity, or willful ignorance? You know, something like the comments made by defenders of the Senate Immigration Reform legislation?

As you think about it, you might read the following for insight:

Munoz and Torres avoids the dictionary.

"...such a poisonous term (amnesty) is being used this way, because nobody is proposing anything that even resembles an amnesty," said Cecilia Muñoz of the National Council of La Raza. "We are giving people a chance to earn their legal status, not giving it away."

"Amnesty is where someone comes in illegally and gets in front of others and immediately becomes legal," said Gustavo Torres, director of CASA of Maryland (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/related-topics.html/Maryland?tid=informline), a nonprofit group that helps illegal immigrants. "This is totally different.."


While Chertoff provides us with more to savor, adding mendacity to stupidity:

"I understand that some people think it’s not tough enough. Maybe they want people thrown in jail for 10 years or they want people executed."


Next we have Novak who resorts to sentimentality in the service of the bigoted straw man:
<DIR>...This nation of immigrants has greeted successive waves of newcomers with apprehension stoked by demagogues. It has overcome such past xenophobic impulses. But that will be more difficult in an era of Internet bloggers and radio talkers, ...

...Graham was not happy with his junior South Carolina colleague, Sen. Jim DeMint, for playing to the convention crowd with anti-immigration oratory... Many Republicans reach for an anti-immigration lifeline because of the party's plight... But immigrant-bashing divides rather than unites Republicans. In a recent closed-door meeting of the House's conservative Republican Study Committee, Rep. Bob Inglis of South Carolina raised the danger of resembling South Africa's National Party advocating apartheid (http://lonewacko.com/blog/archives/003826.html).

</DIR>And Linda Chavez also advances the bigoted straw man as her primary defense of the Senate bill,

"Some people just don't like Mexicans -- or anyone else from south of the border. They think Latinos are freeloaders and welfare cheats...have too many babies, and that Latino kids will dumb down our schools. They think Latinos are...more prone to criminal behavior. ...No amount of hard, empirical evidence to the contrary, and no amount of reasoned argument or appeals to decency and fairness, will convince this small group of Americans -- fewer than 10 percent of the general population, at most -- otherwise. Unfortunately, among this group is a fair number of Republican members of Congress, almost all influential conservative talk radio hosts, some cable news anchors -- most prominently, Lou Dobbs -- and a handful of public policy "experts" at organizations such as the Center for Immigration Studies, the Federation for American Immigration Reform, NumbersUSA, in addition to fringe groups like the Minuteman Project,"


Gerson, a former Bush speech writer, also finds characterizing the bill's critics as bigots as his most compelling argument:

"In 1882, Congress passed and President Chester Arthur signed the Chinese Exclusion Act. Today we don't name laws as bluntly as we used to. But anti-immigrant sentiments are very much alive, this time expressed in opposition to the Comprehensive Immigration Reform Act of 2007.

For a certain kind of conservative, any attempt to grant a legal status to illegal immigrants is as welcome as salsa on their apple pie..."


And finally, President Bush lends his own legendary powers of insight to the examination of the bill's critics and their arguments:

It "makes it more likely we can enforce our border _ and at the same time uphold the great immigrant tradition of the United States of America..."

"...If you want to kill the bill, if you don't want to do what's right for America, you can pick one little aspect out of it."

Bush then chastised those who say the proposal offers amnesty to illegal immigrants. He called their criticism 'empty political rhetoric' and added that there are those that "oppose it in some cases because 'it might make somebody else look good."


What is remarkable about all the defenses proffered, especially by Republican supporters of the Senate bill, is the uniform poverty of their arguments and reliance upon collective ad hom's of fellow Republicans and conservatives. Whereas critics rely on statistics, facts, expert opinion, and analysis of the various provisions, the bill's supporters rely on name calling, false characterizations, appeals to swarmy history, and unsupported claims.

In summary, the argumentative pathology of those who support the bill is that anyone who does not support the grand bargain must be ignorant, xenophobic, immigrant bashing, Mexican loathing, inhumane, envious of credit given to others, and tends to be in favor favor of the execution of illegal migrants.

. ---

Never mind the statistics on crime, projected social service costs, social security implications, low education levels, our economic needs, questions of fairness to legal applicants, lack of border control, or considerations national self-interests - to bring up those kinds of facts and considerations are, one supposes, an expression of xenophobia.

And never mind the conservative critics such as George Will, Charles Kauthiemer, Peggy Noonan, Newt Gingrich, Fred Thompson, Mark Levin, Hugh Hewitt, Mitt Romney, Thomas Sowell,
Ed Meese, Shawn Hanniety, the late Milton Friedman,most of the staff of National Review and those "experts" at conservative think tanks - for their criticisms must also be of the indecent crowd.

So what do we call this kind of shameless and absurd form of argument? Perhaps someone here can provide the exact term, but in my neighborhood the only word that comes to mind is...

Horseshit.

Any others?

The_Elucidator
05-30-2007, 08:46 PM
They think Latinos are freeloaders and welfare cheats...have too many babies, and that Latino kids will dumb down our schools.

Linda, Linda, Linda... Come visit the RGV here in south Texaco and see for yourself. I can prove all three of your points, I can show you many examples for each of your points. Pull your head out of the Presidents Butt!

maxparrish
05-30-2007, 09:10 PM
Linda, Linda, Linda... Come visit the RGV here in south Texaco and see for yourself. I can prove all three of your points, I can show you many examples for each of your points. Pull your head out of the Presidents Butt!

Yes, I am disappointed in Linda. She says "no amount of empirical evidence" will sway those against illegal immigration. Excuse us? Which of these defenders, including Linda, offer us empirical and contrary facts?

NONE, because the facts are not in dispute:

- illegals from Mexico and Central America are far more likely to commit a crime that native born Americans (and native born Latinos are more likely to be criminals than white Americans).

- illegals from these countries are some of the least educated and skilled, and have an average of an 8th grade education.

- Latinos are far more likely to remain poor, and more likely to use welfare.

- Latinos have more children, and more of them are born to unwed (and usually poor) mothers (50% out of marriage).

- Latinos make up 38% of California's prison population, and aliens make up 29% of federal prisons, 55% of them thought to be illegal.

- Latinos are less likely to graduate from high school and do poorly in schools, on average.

No wonder they rely on bigot straw men - the facts sting to much.

UnkHiram
05-30-2007, 09:16 PM
What ever happened to basic Conservative belief in OBEYING THE LAW. Illegal Aliens may be this and they may be that but one thing that they undisputably are is CRIMINALS. They Broke the Law entering the country, Every day they spend in our country they are violating our law. Deport them NOW! Then we can discuss change our immigrations policies.

nene
05-30-2007, 09:29 PM
What ever happened to basic Conservative belief in OBEYING THE LAW. Illegal Aliens may be this and they may be that but one thing that they undisputably are is CRIMINALS. They Broke the Law entering the country, Every day they spend in our country they are violating our law. Deport them NOW! Then we can discuss change our immigrations policies.Let's not stop there. If the illegals should be punished (deported) because they are criminals, then all the businesses that knowingly hired these illegals should be punished. Furthermore, the federal government should be punished for not enforcing the laws as is their obligation.

I agree with punishing all law breakers. I don't agree with punishing just some of them. What I have a problem with is when people call for deportation of illegals, but don't call for severely punishing their enablers (those that hire illegals). Deportation will lead to much suffering. If it is necessary, then so be it. Just spread the ass kicking to all parties involved is all I'm saying.

UnkHiram
05-30-2007, 09:34 PM
nene

I have absolutely no problem with sticking the CEO of every company that employs Illegal Aliens in Huntsville for a couple of years. As far as Deportation leading to "Much Suffering" ----------- THEY SHOULD HAVE OBEYED THE LAW!

nene
05-30-2007, 09:37 PM
nene

I have absolutely no problem with sticking the CEO of every company that employs Illegal Aliens in Huntsville for a couple of years. As far as Deportation leading to "Much Suffering" ----------- THEY SHOULD HAVE OBEYED THE LAW!That's what I'm talking about!

DoctorDoom
05-30-2007, 10:58 PM
ACCESSORY AFTER THE FACT - Whoever, knowing that an offense has been committed, receives, relieves, comforts or assists the offender in order to hinder or prevent his apprehension, trial or punishment, is an accessory after the fact; one who knowing a felony to have been committed by another, receives, relieves, comforts, or assists the felon in order to hinder the felon's apprehension, trial, or punishment. U.S.C. 18

http://www.lectlaw.com/def/a007.htm

Wolfcounsel
05-31-2007, 10:20 AM
"...because the facts are not in dispute:..." --maxparrish

Source, please.

maxparrish
05-31-2007, 10:40 AM
"...because the facts are not in dispute:..." --maxillaries

Source, please. Are you asking out of curiosity or dispute, or as a matter of protocol? It is in the currency of social science literature, and accepted as common knowledge so, to be frank, I would have to goggle up facts I have learned over many years.

I am more than happy to do so, but I was just curious.

Rhino
05-31-2007, 11:20 AM
Presumably because there's quite a bit of debate over this. Although the numbers of illegals in crime and in the criminal justice system have increased, so has that of citizens. Additionally, numbers are often used from areas of high immigrant population, and then extrapolated on a national basis, which makes no sense from an empirical standpoint. This guy does a fairly decent job of discussing that.

http://www.eriposte.com/civil_rights/non-citizens/illegalimmigration.htm#CRIME

But I think the real problem here is that very few law enforcement and criminal justice agencies track the numbers and crimes of illegal immigrants as opposed to immigrants as a whole. Many so called statistics on this issue also do not address whether or not their simply being an illegal alien is factored into the crime data. So it is nearly impossible to garner statistically significant facts on this stuff. I would tend to agree that they probably impose a higher crime burden, but without reliable, empirical data, it's going to be really tough to prove that. That problem is discussed here:

http://www.urban.org/publications/410366.html

http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/homeland.php?id=486375

http://www.usillegalaliens.com/impacts_of_illegal_immigration_crime.html

Rhino
05-31-2007, 11:27 AM
Then there's stuff like this:

The US Justice Department issued a report on criminal aliens who are incarcerated in federal and state prisons and local jails.

The report contained information on the number of criminal aliens incarcerated, their country of citizenship or country of birth, and the cost to incarcerate them. Congress also requested that the Government Accounting Office provide information on the criminal history of aliens incarcerated in federal and state prisons or local jails who had entered the country illegally.

In the population study of a sample of 55,322 illegal aliens, researchers found that they were arrested at least a total of 459,614 times, averaging about 8 arrests per illegal alien. Nearly all had more than 1 arrest. Thirty-eight percent (about 21,000) had between 2 and 5 arrests, 32 percent (about 18,000) had between 6 and 10 arrests, and 26 percent (about 15,000) had 11 or more arrests. Most of the arrests occurred after 1990.

They were arrested for a total of about 700,000 criminal offenses, averaging about 13 offenses per illegal alien. One arrest incident may include multiple offenses, a fact that explains why there are nearly one and half times more offenses than arrests. Almost all of these illegal aliens were arrested for more than 1 offense. Slightly more than half of the 55,322 illegal aliens had between 2 and 10 offenses.

About 45 percent of all offenses were drug or immigration offenses. About 15 percent were property-related offenses such as burglary, larceny-theft, motor vehicle theft, and property damage. About 12 percent were for violent offenses such as murder, robbery, assault, and sex-related crimes.http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/kouri/060622

Lazarus
05-31-2007, 11:45 AM
let's not forget this one indisputable fact - Every alien who comes here illegally is by definition a criminal... They have already chosen to flaunt and ignore the laws of this nation... Thus they are criminals the moment they set foot across our border...

Bush and his minions are trying to give legal status to 12-20 million ciminals...

Maggie_T
05-31-2007, 04:30 PM
I think Laura Ingraham was going to have a knock-down/drag-out fight with Linda on Laura's show today. Unfortunately, I had to work away from my desk (and radio) for the best part of the morning, today.

Anybody heard the exchange?

I'm afraid Linda Chavez fell into the trap of "defending her own." Tut-tut. Most disappointing of her.

Gonzo67
05-31-2007, 05:32 PM
I agree with punishing all law breakers. I don't agree with punishing just some of them. What I have a problem with is when people call for deportation of illegals, but don't call for severely punishing their enablers (those that hire illegals). Deportation will lead to much suffering. If it is necessary, then so be it. Just spread the ass kicking to all parties involved is all I'm saying.


I have posted the same thing a few times in the past. The solution is quite simple. We know who the illegals are. We know where they work. Finding them and deporting them is a simple and very inexpensive (inexpensive to the American taxpayer that is) matter.

You go to their place of employment, you place them in hand cuffs, and you escort them out of the building into a prison bus. Where they are taken to a prison, processed, and there they sit awaiting their bus ride home.

Then you freeze the assets of the company they were working at. You place the CEO of that company in prison for violating immigration laws, you use the COMPANIES ASSETS to pay for the lodging and deportation of each and every illegal that worked for them.

On top of the CEO's prison sentence, you impose a healthy fine for each illegal his company employed, and and court costs, processing fees, etc all are payed by that company.

Then you make it so the CEO becomes just another Broke-dick American when he gets out of prison, having a criminal record, you fix the "social programs" to EXCLUDE people with felony records, so the CEO is not allowed any social benefits, he's no longer able to run a company. You make that prick start punching a clock at McDonalds.

There is NO NEED to hit up the American Taxpayers because a company breaks the law and hires foreign criminals who are here, ALSO, in violation of our laws. You put the responsibility and the burden DIRECTLY on the shoulders of those to whom that responsibility belongs.

maxparrish
05-31-2007, 08:13 PM
Presumably because there's quite a bit of debate over this. Although the numbers of illegals in crime and in the criminal justice system have increased, so has that of citizens....

But I think the real problem here is that very few law enforcement and criminal justice agencies track the numbers and crimes of illegal immigrants as opposed to immigrants as a whole.

Rhino's cautioning is well taken - it is important to be accurate AND not repeat "ficts" (my term for fictional facts). After doing a little research I discovered that some of my facts are so inaccurately repeated in the anti-illegal media that they have become ficts - i.e. I note I was wrong on some numbers.

Unlike the opposition, I ACKNOWLEDGE it, and have corrected it (see above). Would those corrections (see above) make Linda Chavez any happier? Hard to see why it would.

It is true that direct measurements are harder than you think when it comes to crime rates (vs other kinds of social indicators) BECAUSE the pro-illegal crowd suppresses data gathering. As Heather McDonald pointed out in her studies for the Manhattan Institute, most police officials think you have created a giant social blunder if you ask questions about illegals and crime rates...its the elephant in the room.

PS Can anyone tell me how to do strikeout text?

maxparrish
05-31-2007, 08:21 PM
By the way, for an extended discussion we could go into the odd aspects of some of the findings. For example, it seems (I stress seems) that:

1st generation legal immigrants are as or more law abiding.

Latino ON latino crime is heavily under-reported

Mexicans closer to Mexico have a much higher rate of crime, than those in non-border states.

Crime rates among latin illegal immigrants widely vary by country of origin.

1/2 of one or more major LA gangs are made up of illegals.

Perhaps 95% of outstanding warrants for homocide in LA is for illegals.

2nd and 3rd generations of most LEGAL recent immigrants are less lawful.

Asians crime widely vary. Laotians are 5 to 10 times worse than Chinese.

The_Elucidator
05-31-2007, 08:56 PM
By the way, for an extended discussion we could go into the odd aspects of some of the findings. For example, it seems (I stress seems) that:

1st generation legal immigrants are as or more law abiding.

Latino ON latino crime is heavily under-reported

Mexicans closer to Mexico have a much higher rate of crime, than those in non-border states.

Crime rates among latin illegal immigrants widely vary by country of origin.

1/2 of one or more major LA gangs are made up of illegals.

Perhaps 95% of outstanding warrants for homocide in LA is for illegals.

2nd and 3rd generations of most LEGAL recent immigrants are less lawful.

Asians crime widely vary. Laotians are 5 to 10 times worse than Chinese.

Just from experience I can say that points 1,2 & 3 are spot on. Points 2 & 3 are the most noteworthy though. Latino on Latino crime is very rampant due to gang and drug violence. And the crime rate here is very bad with dual mexicans breaking laws right and left then shooting back across the border and hanging out with family till things cool down.

Rhino
06-01-2007, 08:51 AM
PS Can anyone tell me how to do strikeout text?Just use the "s" and "/s" tags.

Explanation here:
http://www.freeconservatives.com/vb/misc.php?do=bbcode

omegatrump
06-01-2007, 12:16 PM
ACCESSORY AFTER THE FACT - Whoever, knowing that an offense has been committed, receives, relieves, comforts or assists the offender in order to hinder or prevent his apprehension, trial or punishment, is an accessory after the fact; one who knowing a felony to have been committed by another, receives, relieves, comforts, or assists the felon in order to hinder the felon's apprehension, trial, or punishment. U.S.C. 18

http://www.lectlaw.com/def/a007.htm (http://www.lectlaw.com/def/a007.htm)


This serves to identify some very high minded criminals.