Vet in Trouble for Wearing Uniform at Protest

[Rhino]

U.S. Marine Vet Faces Hearing on Discharge Status for Wearing Uniform at Protest

Thursday, May 31, 2007

KANSAS CITY, Missouri — A U.S. veteran who served in the Iraq war could lose his honorable discharge status after being photographed wearing fatigues at an anti-war protest.

Marine Cpl. Adam Kokesh and other veterans marked the fourth anniversary of the war in Iraq in April by wearing their uniforms — with military insignia removed — and roaming around the nation's capital on a mock patrol.

After Kokesh was identified in a photo caption in The Washington Post, a superior officer sent him a letter saying he might have violated a rule prohibiting troops from wearing uniforms without authorization.

Kokesh, a member of Iraq Veterans Against the War, responded with an obscenity.

Now, a military panel has been scheduled to meet with Kokesh on Monday to decide whether his discharge status should be changed from "honorable" to "other than honorable."

"This is clearly a case of selective prosecution and intimidation of veterans who speak out against the war," Kokesh said. "To suggest that while as a veteran you don't have freedom of speech is absurd."....http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,276615,00.html

[Suzie]

You have freedom of speech. You just can't wear the uniform of your country and protest against a current conflict your brothers in arms, also wearing that uniform are currently engaged in. I would think that falls under the enemy aid and comfort policy. In the old days they would probably hang him for treason.

[Rhino]

I'm not so sure of the technalities on this one. If he removed all the insignia from the BDUs, does that still constitute a uniform? You can get those anywhere. Also, he wasn't on active duty either. Although I despise the idea of a uniform at these protests, I have to admit he may have a case here.

[Suzie]

He was a corporal, enlisted are issued uniforms as equipment. I would say it was government property, and so was he for that matter when he wore it. I dunno, if they let him keep it maybe there is something you have to sign off on that covers this? If not there should be. :lol:

[Wolfcounsel]

"I'm not so sure of the technalities on this one. If he removed all the insignia from the BDUs, does that still constitute a uniform? You can get those anywhere. Also, he wasn't on active duty either." --Rhino

If you are male, you are obligated for eight years of Military service, whether you serve or not, until you reach age 26. I think he would be in the Miltary Reserves after his discharge.

[The_Elucidator]

"To suggest that while as a veteran you don't have freedom of speech is absurd."....

You have freedom of speech! You separated from the Military, there is your freedom. But because you "chose" to wear the uniform and reap all the bennies thereof; you are held to a higher standard than the other mindless tools you have joined! I have no problem with you protesting as long as you are willing to forego any and all ties with the Military to include your Honorable Discharge and your uniforms. The Military is a good an honorable entity! The folks who run it can make questionable decisions at times but the uniform and the spirit of many fallen soldiers lives on. You want to protest, remember that while you do it during a time of War, you are killing your fellow Marines! LEAVE THE UNIFORM AT HOME!!!

[DesertFox]

I'd need a whole lot more information before lowering the boom on this dude. If he's not active and if he removed all insignia from his BDU, I don't see what the gripe is since, as somebody noted, anyone can wear it.

If he's still connected with the service, I got no sympathy at all. Shoot him. I can't stand shmucks who knowingly break the rules and then whine about the consequences.

[Suzie]

I am not sure if discharged is the same as "retired" but I found this....

Retiree Uniform Regulations


In general, the uniform may be worn for ceremonies or at official functions when the dignity of the occasion and good taste would dictate the propriety of the uniform. Whenever the uniform is worn, it must be done in such a manner as to reflect credit upon the individual and the service from which retired.

Appropriate occasions for wearing the uniform include memorial services, military weddings, military funerals, military balls, patriotic or military parades, and ceremonies in which military units are taking part, meetings or functions of associations where the membership is largely or entirely composed of honorable discharged or retired military personnel, and any other occasion where, in the judgment of the retired member, wearing of the uniform is appropriate. On these occasions the uniform may be worn while traveling to and from the ceremony, provided that such travel may be completed on the day of the ceremony.

- Wearing a uniform after retirement is a privilege granted in recognition of faithful service to country. Retirees should exercise this privilege whenever possible and in such a manner as to reflect credit upon themselves and uniformed services.

- Retirees who are advanced to a higher grade upon retirement may wear the insignia of such higher grade while participating in retirement ceremonies and thereafter.

- Retirees on active duty will wear the uniform and insignia prescribed for members on Active Duty for their corresponding grade and branch. Retirees not on active duty may wear either the uniform reflecting their grade and branch on the date of their retirement or the uniform for members of corresponding grade and branch, when appropriate. The two uniforms may not be mixed. The grade worn will be as shown on the retired grade of rank line on the retirement order.

- Retirees not on active duty are not authorized to wear the uniform when they are instructors or responsible for military discipline at an educational institution unless the educational institution is conducting courses of instruction approved by the Armed Forces.

Retiree Uniform Restrictions.
Wear of the member's uniform is prohibited for all retirees:

In connection with the promotion of any political or commercial interests or when engaged in off duty civilian employment. Reserve technicians who are also members of the Ready Reserve may wear their uniform at their option while on duty in their civil service status.
When participating in public speeches, interviews, picket lines, marches, rallies, or public demonstrations, except as authorized by competent authority.
When wearing the uniform would bring discredit upon the Uniformed Services.
When specifically prohibited by DoD Regulations. If there is any doubt about wearing the uniform to a function, the commander of the nearest installation should be contacted. Retirees in a foreign country should contact the American Embassy, the American Consulate, or a U. S. military authority. The Retirement Services Officer can also provide information and assistance. SOURCE (http://www.military.com/benefits/retiree/retiree-uniform-regulations)


And specific to the Marines.

LAWS PERTAINING TO THE UNIFORM

1. Per 10 U.S.C. 771, no person, unless otherwise authorized by law, may wear the uniform or a distinctive part of the uniform of which is similar to a distinctive part of the Marine Corps uniform.

2. According to 18 U.S.C. 702, whoever wears the Marine Corps uniform without authority, in any place within the jurisdiction of the United States will be fined not more than $250 or imprisoned not more than six months, or both.

3. According to 10 U.S.C. 772, the Marine Corps uniform may be worn by personnel not on active duty under the following conditions:[/FONT]<o:p></o:p>

a. Retired Marine Corps officers may bear the title and wear the uniform of their retired grade.

b. Former Marines who are discharged honorably or under honorable conditions from the Marine Corps may wear their uniform while going from the place of discharge to their home of record, within three months after discharge.

c. Former Marines not on active duty who served honorably in time of war in the Marine Corps may bear the title, and as authorized by regulations prescribed by the President, wear the uniform of the highest grade held during that war (subparagraph 11002.1).

d. While portraying a member of the Marine Corps, an actor in a theatrical or motion picture production may wear the Marine Corps uniform provided the portrayal does not tend to discredit the Marine Corps.

e. While attending a course of military instruction conducted by the Marine Corps, a civilian may wear the uniform prescribed by the commander of the installation conducting the instruction.

4. According to 10 U.S.C. 773, a person for whom one of the following uniforms is prescribed may wear it, if it includes distinctive insignia prescribed by the Secretary of the military department concerned to distinguish it from the uniform of the Marine Corps (subparagraph 11003.2).

a. The uniform prescribed by the university, college, or school for an instructor or member of the organized cadet corps of:

(1) A State university or college, or a public high school, having a regular course of military instruction.

(2) An educational institution having a regular course of military instruction, and having a member of the Marine Corps as instructor of military science and tactics.

b. A uniform prescribed under subparagraph 11004.4a, above, may not include insignia of grade the same as, or similar to, those prescribed for Marine Corps officers.

c. Under such regulations as the secretary of the military department concerned may prescribe, any person who is permitted to attend a course of instruction prescribed for members of Reserve Officers' Training Corps, and who is not a member of that corps, may, while attending that course of instruction, wear the uniform of that corps.

5. According to 18 U.S.C. 244, whoever, being a proprietor, manager, or employee of a theater or other public place of entertainment or amusement in the District of Columbia or in any territory, or possession of the United States, causes any person wearing the uniform of any of the Armed Forces of the United States to be discriminated against because of that uniform, shall be fined not more than $500. SOURCE (http://www.marcorsyscom.usmc.mil/sites/mcub/PAGES/Uniform%20Regs%20Chapters/Chapter%2011_files/Chapter%2011.htm)

[Un Con Troll Able]

This man is a civilian (if he's not currently on active duty, he is a civilian). He was wearing military type clothing -- not a uniform (not if insignias were removed).

A type of discharge is based upon the conduct of the person's service while on active duty. You cannot go back and downgrade the type of discharge issued because of something they did as a civilian subsequent to their separation from the military -- the same way you cannot court martial someone after they leave the military for any offense committed after separation/retirement.

What's next -- stripping these people of their rightfully earned medals?

This is utterly sickening.

Sieg...heil!
Sieg...heil!!
Sieg...heil!!!

[omegatrump]

The thought Nazi's are at it again.

Any body in this country can walk into an Army Navy store and buy Uniforms. They call it military clothing. My sons have a closet full, they use for paint ball wars, hunting etc. BDU's without insignias have been decomissioned as uniforms. I buy decomissioned military junk all the time.

The man is a civilian, he is entitled to his opinion, and as it is turning out in this Nation that may well prove to be the only thing he fought for. I guess it is just a sign of the times, as America transisions to a non representative type government. Big brother is taking over.

[Wolfcounsel]

Okay. Have it your way, clowns. I'm talking to the EX-Military out there who want to join the Hanoi Johnny and Jane Club. Why don't you put on some clown make-up along with the Warrior's uniform and go parade your anti-American crap along with the stinking pinkos? I hope if all Hell breaks loose in this country that I have plenty of ammo in reserve for your sorry asses.http://freeconservatives.com/smilies/death2.gif

[omegatrump]

Wolfcounsel, can you be sure this vet is joining the Hanoi Johny and Jane club?

Maybe he see's as I did when I was in Vietnam that it was a total fiasco. Maybe he see's that the micromanagement of this war, if it is indeed supposed to be a war, is what is losing American lives unnecessarily. Just because he disagrees with the policy of the war doesn't mean that he's a communist Hanoi Johny.

I see the lack of Godly wisdom evident in Bush's Policies on just about every level. If we are going to fight a war, then we better get on with it.
Bush is an idiot on just about every issue, and so far it is looking like he's an idiot on this one as well.

He totaly miscalculated this enemy from the beginning. He took faulty and unwise counsel to be a directive from God, which shaped and channeled his war policy from the start. He is incapable of taking counsel from compitent individuals because of his juvenile stubborness. The man is pitiful.

When I think back, and see the bloody remains of buddy's I walked the rice patties with, I am still both immensly saddened, and enraged at the same time. To think that Johnson and McNamera were such idiots, and to think that they just considered us doing our duty, because they said it was our duty.

Because I was born into this country does not automatically impose on me the duty to be a keeper of those who do not want to keep themselves. It is not my place to feed those who will not raise a finger to feed themselves. Neither is it my place to secure those who will not take the initiative to engage that responsability as their own duty.

[Rhino]

Wolfcounsel, can you be sure this vet is joining the Hanoi Johny and Jane club?

Maybe he see's as I did when I was in Vietnam that it was a total fiasco. Maybe he see's that the micromanagement of this war, if it is indeed supposed to be a war, is what is losing American lives unnecessarily. Just because he disagrees with the policy of the war doesn't mean that he's a communist Hanoi Johny.What's the difference in your mind? John and Jane did the same thing.

And he doesn't just think it was mismanagement.

http://www.ivaw.org/faq

[Wolfcounsel]

"Maybe he see's as I did when I was in Vietnam that it was a total fiasco. Maybe he see's that the micromanagement of this war, if it is indeed supposed to be a war, is what is losing American lives unnecessarily. Just because he disagrees with the policy of the war doesn't mean that he's a communist Hanoi Johny." --omegatrump

He does not have to join the Che Guevara Lovers' Club to show his protest of the mismanagement. He can go to Washington and let Congress have it point blank with his mouth, dressed in a suit made of cloth, and a tie to go along with it. Just as long as his brain is bigger than his alligator mouth, he'll do a lot better than the dumbasses who would run and hide behind their mommy's skirts when faced with an enemy that is not the police or National Guard.

[Suzie]

He needs to support those who are there and who do believe in their mission. If he can't do that he should have never had a uniform in the first place. This is no better than what John Kerry did. He can think what he wants, but don't try to undermine those who are still fighting this war. Maybe like John Kerry he's such a loser he doesn't think there could be people proud of their service in this war and want to win. People like him support those who want us to lose.

[Wolfcounsel]

It is no protest against the troops to demand that Congress pull its head out of its ass and unleash the Dogs of War, but this clown is protesting any Military action, and not only micromanagement. He needs to have his mouth and fingers duct taped for the duration, along with the rest of the monkey momma's boys who are playing Soldier while crapping on the troops.

[omegatrump]

What's the difference in your mind? John and Jane did the same thing.

And he doesn't just think it was mismanagement.

http://www.ivaw.org/faq

No difference in my mind. Well mismanagement is an after the fact term. I guess your right. There is more to it.

[Rhino]

No difference in my mind.Then that would mean that this vet is truly deserving of the Hanoi Johny and Jane club label that Wolfie applied, the one you seemed to object to. Are you sure you answered this in the same context I was asking it?

[omegatrump]

It is no protest against the troops to demand that Congress pull its head out of its ass and unleash the Dogs of War, but this clown is protesting any Military action, and not only micromanagement. He needs to have his mouth and fingers duct taped for the duration, along with the rest of the monkey momma's boys who are playing Soldier while crapping on the troops.


As I see it, those crapping on the troops, are those who have such a casual and distorted concept of our military as to assume that their foremost purpose in life is to sacrifice themselves for a purely idiotic notion.

My answer to them is Get it Right, or get them home. Were I in their shoes I would desire and expect no more from those Chickenhawks at home who think I have nothing better to do with my life.

To engage in a mission, with an objective, and to secure that objective is one thing. To commit to a no end drain that only further enables our enemy is another.

[Rhino]

Oh, I know your stance on the war, and I'm sure you know mine. It just seemed strange that you objected to Wolf characterizing this guy with the likes of John and Jane, and then seemingly said there was no difference. I wasn't sure if you'd changed your mind, I hadn't worded the question very well or you simply misunderstood it.

EDIT: Oops! Sorry. I thought you were responding to my post, but you were responding to Wolf. My bad.

[omegatrump]

Then that would mean that this vet is truly deserving of the Hanoi Johny and Jane club label that Wolfie applied, the one you seemed to object to. Are you sure you answered this in the same context I was asking it?

LOL, there was no difference between John and Jane.

[Rhino]

LOL! Okay, different context. I meant how is this guy different from John and Jane?

[Suzie]

He isn't.

[The_Elucidator]

Any body in this country can walk into an Army Navy store and buy Uniforms. They call it military clothing. My sons have a closet full, they use for paint ball wars, hunting etc. BDU's without insignias have been decomissioned as uniforms. I buy decomissioned military junk all the time.

The man is a civilian, he is entitled to his opinion, and as it is turning out in this Nation that may well prove to be the only thing he fought for. I guess it is just a sign of the times, as America transisions to a non representative type government. Big brother is taking over.

And this means exactly....nothing! Once you wear the uniform, you are a Marine, Soldier, Sailor or Airman for life; if not by contract by honor! This numbnuts did not just walk into any old store and purchase the uniforms, they were issued to him by the very Military and country that he swore an oath to. When he signed the contract to enter into enlistment and upon seperation is still bound by laws pertaining to the uniform.

This isn't about though police or any such matter. This is about the law and about honor; both of which this tool knows nothing about!

Like I said in my earlier post; the folks running this country may be idiots and thats a fact; but the Military and what it stands for remains Honorable! You want to protest; wear a mask of Dubya and act like a fool!

[Rhino]

My first fatigues were issued, but I bought them all after that, to include all my BDUs. I think they issued me underwear originally too. Does that mean I can't wear them to a protest? :evilgrin:

[omegatrump]

And this means exactly....nothing! Once you wear the uniform, you are a Marine, Soldier, Sailor or Airman for life; if not by contract by honor! This numbnuts did not just walk into any old store and purchase the uniforms, they were issued to him by the very Military and country that he swore an oath to. When he signed the contract to enter into enlistment and upon seperation is still bound by laws pertaining to the uniform.

This isn't about though police or any such matter. This is about the law and about honor; both of which this tool knows nothing about!

Like I said in my earlier post; the folks running this country may be idiots and thats a fact; but the Military and what it stands for remains Honorable! You want to protest; wear a mask of Dubya and act like a fool!

I understand the issue of honor! The oath you refer to used to include, ....defend the Constitution of the United States against enemies both foreign and domestic. I see no reason he shouldn't wear the clothing of his choice to take on those domestic enemies as he see's fit.

Maybe that phrase is no longer in the oath. It was in the oath I took If I remember right, and I will enjoy the right to do so until I don't breath any more.

The other side of the issue of Honor: Never seek Honor from those who have no Honor to give.

[The_Elucidator]

My first fatigues were issued, but I bought them all after that, to include all my BDUs. I think they issued me underwear originally too. Does that mean I can't wear them to a protest? :evilgrin:

Rhino, Rhino, Rhino.... Did you receive a clothing allowance from Uncle Sam annually, specifically for the purpose of purchasing those BDU's? :noggin:

[Rhino]

Yep. I received a housing allowance too, but they have no right to say how I use my house. Same for my food allowance. As I said earlier, although I despise the idea of a uniform at these protests, I have to admit he may have a case here, based on the technicality that it isn't a uniform if the insignia was removed. And he isn't on active duty. I wear my old BDU jacket sometimes, even on base, and that would have been illegal when I was on active duty, even while wearing my civilian clothes. It isn't illegal now, as long as I have the insignia removed. If I am not required to comply with the uniform regulations in any other way, they'd have a hard time saying they had the right to enforce only one small item within those regulations. They either apply or they don't. That's where I think this guy may have a case.

[M.C.]

We're talking about a war, that every democrat, more than half the republicans, and a large percent of the military (from what I hear from other soldiers that is) objects. Let the man wear his uniform, he served his country, now he wants to tell his country his opinion on the war.

[Suzie]

Yep. I received a housing allowance too, but they have no right to say how I use my house. Same for my food allowance. As I said earlier, although I despise the idea of a uniform at these protests, I have to admit he may have a case here, based on the technicality that it isn't a uniform if the insignia was removed. And he isn't on active duty. I wear my old BDU jacket sometimes, even on base, and that would have been illegal when I was on active duty, even while wearing my civilian clothes. It isn't illegal now, as long as I have the insignia removed. If I am not required to comply with the uniform regulations in any other way, they'd have a hard time saying they had the right to enforce only one small item within those regulations. They either apply or they don't. That's where I think this guy may have a case.

Was he wearing the entire uniform without the patches? And which uniform was it? This new uniform really doesn't have many "patches". And the ones it does have are hard to see. Plus the velcro on the arms actually look like patches from a distance you wouldn't be able to tell if there was anything stuck to them.
You didn't still have your housing once you were out so there are no guidelines for how you use it once you leave the military. But you do have to follow the base rules for what you have on the lawn how it's kept etc. You also do not get a food allowance once you leave the military so there are no rules for that either. There are for wearing your uniform if you are or ever were in the military.

[Naturalized-Texan]

Hanoi John Kerry wore his Navy uniform during anti-war protests while he was still in the Navy. The fact that he was still in the Navy was why he received a less than honorable discharge which wasn't made honorable until after Carter pardoned all the anti-war traitors. Also, for the same reason, Kerry's Silver Star wasn't officially awarded until it was signed by Jim Webb, President Reagan's Secretary of the Navy.

[DesertFox]

Let the man wear his uniform, he served his country, now he wants to tell his country his opinion on the war.Bullscheise. He knew the rules. He merits no exception.

[Suzie]

Are the Marines wearing the same uniform as the Army now? If so there isn't anything sewn on anymore. Nothing goes on the collar like it used to. You have those big blank patches to velcro on everything. I think even the flag is velcroed on. I can't look at the uniform because he has them with him. But here is a photo. The combat award is pinned on above the US Army. But nothing is permanently attached.

[Wolfcounsel]

"I understand the issue of honor! The oath you refer to used to include, ....defend the Constitution of the United States against enemies both foreign and domestic." --omegatrump

The Oath still has those words. Defense against domestic enemies means fighting those who want to overthrow a legitimate government. Choose your words carefully after that last line, people.:DDoo-deedoo-deedoo-deedoo.

[DesertFox]

We're talking about a war, that every democrat, more than half the republicans, and a large percent of the military (from what I hear from other soldiers that is) objects.That's just what the media wants you to think.

[Suzie]

What the troops are saying (http://hotair.com/archives/2007/04/13/letting-the-troops-speak-for-themselves/)

They need to know (http://www.youtube.com/p.swf?video_id=ervaMPt4Ha0&eurl=http%3A//www.discussionforums.us/forum/showthread.php%3Ft%3D24071&iurl=http%3A//img.youtube.com/vi/ervaMPt4Ha0/2.jpg&t=OEgsToPDskL2n8dab3s9EFbIOnJZS5d0)

[omegatrump]

"I understand the issue of honor! The oath you refer to used to include, ....defend the Constitution of the United States against enemies both foreign and domestic." --omegatrump

The Oath still has those words. Defense against domestic enemies means fighting those who want to overthrow a legitimate government. Choose your words carefully after that last line, people.:DDoo-deedoo-deedoo-deedoo.


When you have a President that says "f the constitution it's just a g d piece of paper", you've had an overthrow of a legitimate government allready.

A President who stubornly insists on disolving the borders of our nation, and disregards the will of the people in favor of his globalist agenda has launched an assault on the Constitution that leaves little doubt as to his loyalty in that regard.

[Suzie]

Doesn't matter, the soldier (sorry "Marine" which is debatable at this point) took an oath. He didn't take it and say "depending on whether or not I agree with whoever is President" an oath is an oath.

This guy is in the IRR, meaning he hasn't completed his obligation and could still be called to serve, but they let him out and he uses the very uniform he was given because he took that oath and spits in their face. I imagine they won't be calling him back now, what other members of his unit would trust him after he stabs them in the back? I would imagine they want to give him dishonorable to insure he won't be back, since he is still on a call up list while in the IRR.

[The_Elucidator]

When you have a President that says "f the constitution it's just a g d piece of paper", you've had an overthrow of a legitimate government allready.


Link please.. I've got enough to mad at him about, I don't need people posting made up crap!

[CzechPrince]

I'm not so sure of the technalities on this one. If he removed all the insignia from the BDUs, does that still constitute a uniform? You can get those anywhere. Also, he wasn't on active duty either. Although I despise the idea of a uniform at these protests, I have to admit he may have a case here.

I'm with you 100%.

[Suzie]

National Guard members aren't on Active Duty when they aren't on orders. But they can't do this. He's in the IRR, he can still be called up too. That is still his uniform and he isn't supposed to be wearing it in public without the appropriate items in place on the uniform.

[The_Elucidator]

National Guard members aren't on Active Duty when they aren't on orders. But they can't do this. He's in the IRR, he can still be called up too. That is still his uniform and he isn't supposed to be wearing it in public without the appropriate items in place on the uniform.

Absolutely!

[omegatrump]

The other one I was looking for cannot be found. This sight only refers to "it's just a G D piece of paper"
Before his election the first time, I listened to a Christian Radio station one day as people concerned about his character called in and related his prolific use of the F word.


http://www.theconservativevoice.com/article/10789.html

Did he say it, or does he just demonstrate his disdane for it by his rullings and actions. I think this Amnesty bill demonstrates that he, said it. He says it to us every day, Loud and Clear.

[HomeschoolrsRUs]

You gotta do better than heresay evidence. Otherwise, it's inadmissable.

[omegatrump]

You gotta do better than heresay evidence. Otherwise, it's inadmissable.


You mean it has to be on video?

[DesertFox]

When you have a President that says "f the constitution it's just a g d piece of paper", you've had an overthrow of a legitimate government allready.That could well be. If we ever have a president who says that, you may have a point. But we haven't. Snopes and everybody in creation has disproved that silly lie.

There is plenty real to be mad at Bush about. Stick to that and let the phony stuff go.

[Wolfcounsel]

"Also, he wasn't on active duty either. Although I despise the idea of a uniform at these protests, I have to admit he may have a case here." --Rhino

"I'm with you 100%." --CzechPrince

One is liable to the Uniform Code of Military Justice until after his eight years of Military obligation are up.<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

[nene]

One is liable to the Uniform Code of Military Justice until after his eight years of Military obligation are up.<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->Not if he is in the inactive reserve portion of his commitment. If so, he's strictly civilian. The UCMJ doesn't apply.

[Suzie]

As I said, it doesn't to National Guard Soldiers either. If they commit a crime while not on orders (and IRR soldiers can still receive orders :btw: ) they do not answer to military courts. But they still can't wear parts of their uniform out in public. They are "citizen soldiers" so they can't punish them in the military court system with some type of ruling other than discharging or demoting them. And some cases putting something in their record to effect future decisions for promotion. When you are in the IRR they can't demote you, you don't have a position. But they can take away honors you have been given.

[Wolfcounsel]

"Not if he is in the inactive reserve portion of his commitment. If so, he's strictly civilian. The UCMJ doesn't apply." --nene

This is the closest I could find in the UCMJ.

A member of a reserve component who is not on active duty and who is made the subject of proceedings under section 81 (article 15) or section 830 (article 30) with respect to an offense against this chapter may be ordered to active duty involuntarily for the purpose of [p][ul] [p](A) investigation under section 832 of this title (article 32 [p](B) trial by court-martial; or [p](C) nonjudicial punishment under section 815 of this title (article 15).



And the stinking, cowardly, anti-troops asshole can protest with the Che cockroaches while he whaps his peepee. It's a matter of honor when one enlists in the Armed Forces, but then, that seems to not matter to scumbags who can't wait to get out and go back home to mommy's good cooking while they continue to leech off their parents.

[Suzie]

If I had to guess, this is probably part of this guy's beef, http://www.dix.army.mil/PAO/Post04/post070904/irr.htm

Many people join the military to get money for school and they don't want to have to do any real "military stuff" but they like wearing the uniform so they can pick up chicks.

[Bluemoon_Rising]

If he's still connected with the service, I got no sympathy at all. Shoot him.

Can we beat his ass first?

[Rhino]

Was he wearing the entire uniform without the patches? And which uniform was it?Dunno, but the patches and insignia were removed. I know they staged some mock exercises in what looked like complete BDU uniforms.

You didn't still have your housing once you were out so there are no guidelines for how you use it once you leave the military.I still had the house it bought me, just as I still had the uniforms my clothing allowance bought me. That was my point. Buying it with an allowance doesn't mean it belongs to the government.

But you do have to follow the base rules for what you have on the lawn how it's kept etc.If it's on base, yes. But then again, if it's on base, it belongs to them, not to me. And I wouldn't get a housing allowance for base housing anyway. I didn't live on base.

You also do not get a food allowance once you leave the military so there are no rules for that either.Exactly my point. The same applies to the uniform.

There are for wearing your uniform if you are or ever were in the military.Yes, if it's actually a uniform. It isn't if I remove the insignia.

From reading other sources, it appears this guys trouble is based on the fact that he is in the Individual Ready Reserve. It seems the rules for the IRR prohibit you from removing insignia and wearing the uniform as civilian clothes, much the same as when you are on active duty. That seems to eliminate the technicalities for him. He be screwed. Of course, I can't rule out that they will simply let him slide since it's so political. That's bullshit, but it does happen sometimes.

[The_Elucidator]

That seems to eliminate the technicalities for him. He be screwed. Of course, I can't rule out that they will simply let him slide since it's so political. That's bullshit, but it does happen sometimes.

This guy isn't much into technicalities anyway..


He was supposed to go to Iraq a second time, but was demoted from sergeant to corporal and not allowed to return after it was learned that he brought a pistol back after his first tour in 2004.


After Kokesh was identified in a photo cutline in The Washington Post (javascript:siteSearch('The Washington Post');), a superior officer sent him a letter saying he might have violated a rule prohibiting troops from wearing uniforms without authorization.

Kokesh, a member of Iraq Veterans Against the War (javascript:siteSearch('Iraq Veterans Against the War');), responded with an obscenity.

The guy is a piece of work!

[Suzie]

Yes, if it's actually a uniform. It isn't if I remove the insignia.

From reading other sources, it appears this guys trouble is based on the fact that he is in the Individual Ready Reserve. It seems the rules for the IRR prohibit you from removing insignia and wearing the uniform as civilian clothes, much the same as when you are on active duty. That seems to eliminate the technicalities for him. He be screwed. Of course, I can't rule out that they will simply let him slide since it's so political. That's bullshit, but it does happen sometimes.

You seem to contradict yourself here. It's a uniform if it's issued to you to wear as a uniform to serve your branch of service. Not if you buy it because you think it looks cool, then it's a costume.

Your second paragraph there makes the point you skim over with the first sentence. He's not wearing it as a civilian for clothing he's wearing it as a political statement because it was issued to him to perform the service he was paid for and given the uniform to do. And now he doesn't want to do it. And with him still having commitment time it's still his uniform, he's not supposed to wear it out without the proper items in place.

[Rhino]

You seem to contradict yourself here. It's a uniform if it's issued to you to wear as a uniform to serve your branch of service. Not if you buy it because you think it looks cool, then it's a costume.No contradiction. My uniforms weren't issued to me. I bought them. But even when issued, they techinically aren't uniforms if I remove all the insignia and other markings.

Your second paragraph there makes the point you skim over with the first sentence. He's not wearing it as a civilian for clothing he's wearing it as a political statement because it was issued to him to perform the service he was paid for and given the uniform to do. And now he doesn't want to do it. And with him still having commitment time it's still his uniform, he's not supposed to wear it out without the proper items in place.That's what I said. The IRR prohibits that. Since I'm not IRR, I could still wear my old uniform items, without insignia, to a protest and still be quite legal. I'd never do that of course, because legalities aside, it's an extreme disrespect in my book.

[Suzie]

Ahh I see, we are talking about you ... not the dude.

[Rhino]

He probably bought his too. Most military members do. To my knowledge, the only issue you get is the initial issue. But, I confess that I'm not completely up on how the other services do it.

[Suzie]

A Marine is issued a seabag and it includes their uniforms. As a corporal I doubt he had it long enough to purchase much more. And I have never known of a man to want to spend money on clothes when they don't need to. :lol: Especially when they don't make that much.

[Wolfcounsel]

"Yes, if it's actually a uniform. It isn't if I remove the insignia." --Rhino

And if I buy a clown costume, it isn't a clown costume if I remove the squirting flower!:evilgrin:

[DesertFox]

:roar: ...if you buy it because you think it looks cool, then it's a costume.:lol:

So if I buy a pistol because it's part of my job, then it's a pistol; but if I buy it because I think it looks cool with my uniform-that's-a-costume, then it's a prop? :D

[Wolfcounsel]

"So if I buy a pistol because it's part of my job, then it's a pistol; but if I buy it because I think it looks cool with my uniform-that's-a-costume, then it's a prop? :D" --DesertFox

Only if a flag shoots out of it with the word BANG! on it.<!-- / message -->

[Rhino]

"Yes, if it's actually a uniform. It isn't if I remove the insignia." --Rhino

And if I buy a clown costume, it isn't a clown costume if I remove the squirting flower!:evilgrin:But Wolfie, everybody knows you're a clown!!!!! :evilgrin:

[Wolfcounsel]

"But Wolfie, everybody knows you're a clown!!!!! :evilgrin:" --Rhino

What gave me away? Surely not my size 16 checkered shoes!

[Suzie]

"So if I buy a pistol because it's part of my job, then it's a pistol; but if I buy it because I think it looks cool with my uniform-that's-a-costume, then it's a prop? :D" --DesertFox

Only if a flag shoots out of it with the word BANG!<!-- / message --> on it.
:yeahthat: :lol: