Sexually active girls' lament: Why didn't I wait?

[dajoga]

[ QUOTE ]
In fact, Blume later published a letter from a 17-year-old girl named Kim saying that "After reading Forever ... I only wish I had read it sooner. Maybe I would have held off when it came to sex."

Such thoughts should give parents pause, particularly this time of year. June, according to a study last year in the Journal of Marriage and Family, is the most common month for teens to lose their virginity. Warm weather and free days turn thoughts horizontal. Now the Heritage Foundation leaps into this mix of fumbling and hormones with a new study claiming that sexually active teens, particularly girls, are far more likely to be depressed or attempt suicide than their virginal friends.

[/ QUOTE ]

USA Today article (http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2003-06-11-vanderkam_x.htm)
Heritage article (http://www.heritage.org/Research/Family/cda0304.cfm)
"for teens to lose their virginity"

Teens don't "lose" their virginity, they give it away unless it's stolen through rape.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Because you were lazy and stupid that's why, instead of getting an education and bettering yourself, you decided to spread your legs.
I am assuming no one had a gun to your head. Your choice.


"What we do in life...echoes an eternity."

[Chris]

The same girls at school that used to laugh at my daughter because she choose to remain a virgin (and therefore never had a steady guy), all eventually came to her by the time they all graduated high school and told her that she was right, and they were sorry they didn't listen to her advice.

[dajoga]

I don't know if I can find the info, but the divorce rate is much lower for couples who were virgins at marriage. Even those who aren't but make a commitment to abstain during engagement, do better. Most couples don't think about the fact that if they're sleeping together, they're sleeping with someone who is willing to have sex outside of marriage, so what's to say they'll not be willing to do so after marriage? Self-control prior to marriage is a good indicator they'll have it after marriage.

BTW, I've never heard of a couple who were virgins at marriage who then said, "Damn, we missed a lot of fun."

[DoctorDoom]

It's logical. Marriage used to be a doorway into a whole new world of human experience. Now, thanks to the "sexual revolution", the only difference between being single and being married is the license and some economic benefits. The wonders of the honeymoon and the marriage bed were lost years before. Marriage is just more of the same, with the limitation of being confined to one sexual partner.

Small wonder that half of today's marriages fail within a few years.

[DoctorDoom]

[ QUOTE ]
... For example, couples who were virgins when they married in the 1960s are mostly still married today. Only 30% have divorced. But of those who were sexually active in the 60s before marriage, 50% are divorced. The same pattern can be seen in those who married in the 1970s and 1980s. The sexually active are two-thirds more likely to divorce. Further, studies at the University of Wisconsin and Rutgers report that those who cohabit before marriage are 50% more likely to divorce."

[/ QUOTE ]
Samford University Commencement Speech (http://www.marriagesavers.org/Samford%20Commencement.htm)

[ QUOTE ]
What the studies discovered is this: if you don't want to get divorced, don't move in until after the wedding. Why is that? Consider the following facts about cohabitation: Most couples who live together never end up getting married, but those who do tie the knot are almost twice as likely to divorce as couples who don't live together before marriage. ii Overall, the divorce rate of cohabiting couples is about eighty percent, iii and non-virgin brides are sixty percent more likely to end up divorced than women who enter marriage as virgins. iv Couples who cohabited prior to marriage have greater marital conflict and poorer communication, and they made more frequent visits to marriage counselors. v Women who cohabited before marriage are more than three times as likely to cheat on their husbands within marriage. vi The US Justice Department found that women who cohabit are sixty-two times more likely to be assaulted by a live-in boyfriend than by a husband. vii They were also more than three times as likely to be depressed as married women, viii and the couples were less sexually satisfied than those who waited for marriage. ix

[/ QUOTE ]
Chastity Question (http://www.catholic.com/chastity/Q7.asp)

[Chris]

[ QUOTE ]
dgauw said:
BTW, I've never heard of a couple who were virgins at marriage who then said, "Damn, we missed a lot of fun."

[/ QUOTE ]

That's because they're having too much fun to even think about what they may have missed. http://freeconservatives.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif

[HomeschoolrsRUs]

Also lost on the left regarding pregnancy, sexually transmitted diseases, and emotional duress = Abstinence works 100% of the time, no other birth control device, method, or pill can boast as high a success rate.

[ QUOTE ]
From dgauw's post Such thoughts should give parents pause, particularly this time of year. June, according to a study last year in the Journal of Marriage and Family, is the most common month for teens to lose their virginity. Warm weather and free days turn thoughts horizontal.[/b]

[/ QUOTE ]

Get those kids a job, into an extracurriculuar activity like sports, give them chores around the house, make them volunteer somewhere, arrange an apprenticeship for them, go on vacation with them, find alternatives -- it's called parenthood, you're the parent so BE one.

[Halo]

[ QUOTE ]
HomeschoolrsRUs said:
Get those kids a job, into an extracurriculuar activity like sports, give them chores around the house, make them volunteer somewhere, arrange an apprenticeship for them, go on vacation with them, find alternatives -- it's called parenthood, you're the parent so BE one.



[/ QUOTE ]
Well Home, I guess one could use the, "If-you-make-it forbidden-then-that-makes the-kid-want-to-go-out-and-do-it-more, and find out what they're missing out on." argument to refute what your saying.

[DoctorDoom]

That refutes nothing. It's liberal psychobabble.

And one could also use the "liberals will use any lame-ass excuse to justify teenage sexuality and make abortionists rich" argument to refute the refutation.

[HomeschoolrsRUs]

[ QUOTE ]
Halo said:
[ QUOTE ]
HomeschoolrsRUs said:
Get those kids a job, into an extracurriculuar activity like sports, give them chores around the house, make them volunteer somewhere, arrange an apprenticeship for them, go on vacation with them, find alternatives -- it's called parenthood, you're the parent so BE one.



[/ QUOTE ]
Well Home, I guess one could use the, "If-you-make-it forbidden-then-that-makes the-kid-want-to-go-out-and-do-it-more, and find out what they're missing out on." argument to refute what your saying.

[/ QUOTE ]

From your signature am I to assume you do not believe in God? That affects my response to your post, but nevertheless I'll say what I was going to say anyway.
God did not tell Adam and Eve, "Hey guys, I know you are going to sin anyway and eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, so here just take a bite now." He said, "Don't eat of the the tree of the knowledge of good and evil." Condoning a bad behavior doesn't change it into acceptable behavior, nor does it make it right behavior.
Are some kids going to "do it" anyway? Yes! But we should NOT be in the position of facilitators for bad, dangerous behavior for all children, just because some will choose the wrong path. Wrong is wrong, and more parents need to say its wrong. They need to be better at watching their children's behavior, knowing who their children's friends are, knowing where their children are going and monitoring them if they exhibit suspicious signals.
But we are busy people. We are conditioned to leave our children in the care of strangers (day care workers, school teachers, sports programs, after school programs, etc.) because we have to pursue the almighty dollar, entrusting them to instill morals and good behavior. It's not their job, it's the job of the child's parents.

[Halo]

You're right I don't believe in God so that Adam and Eve analogy meant nothing to me. And for every "Why didn't I wait story" you can find, I can find more than ten "I had sex and I'm fine" stories. So ultimately it's the kid's choice, the one thing you don't have control over. Can you tell me exactly why premarital sex is so bad? I've heard a lot of different reasons and I'd like to hear yours.

[Rink]

<center><table align="center" bgcolor="800000" bordercolor="#CCCCCC" border="4" height="40" cellpadding="8"><tr><td><div align="center"><font face="Verdana" color="cyan" size="7">*sighs* Another Clueless
Athiest!<font size="4">
</font></font></div></td></tr></table></center>

[HomeschoolrsRUs]

[ QUOTE ]
Halo said:
You're right I don't believe in God so that Adam and Eve analogy meant nothing to me

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry. If I offended your atheistic principles, Halo, I most sincerely apologize. That was the best analogy I could use. I could try again, though.

We don't tell thieves, hey we know you're going to steal anyway so here's the keys for XYZ neighborhood. Make sure you are careful because there could be homeowners with guns waiting for you. Good Luck! No we say, stealing is wrong. If you steal you will be punished. Will that eliminate all theft? No, but it will stop some -- better to stop or prevent as much as we can, than to offer assistance to the criminal in his activities, and then point fingers at him when he chooses to steal.
Is that better?

[ QUOTE ]
Halo said:
And for every "Why didn't I wait story" you can find, I can find more than ten "I had sex and I'm fine" stories.

[/ QUOTE ]

See above.

[ QUOTE ]
So ultimately it's the kid's choice, the one thing you don't have control over.

[/ QUOTE ]

While you are right, to some extent, I cannot exert total control over my child, but I can make dog-gone sure I do my best to prevent those things from happening. First, I raised them with Biblical morals, values, and principles (they are all listed in the Book). Second, I monitor my children's friends, their excursions, their educational materials. I spend A LOT of time with my children. I provide social settings that are beneficial and uplifting, not promoting secrecy and deciet (they don't go to movies alone with friends, they don't go to parks alone with friends, etc.) Parents CAN be more involved in their children's lives and this will HELP prevent bad things from happening -- I did not say it WILL prevent, but at least it is a step in the right direction.

[ QUOTE ]
Can you tell me exactly why premarital sex is so bad? I've heard a lot of different reasons and I'd like to hear yours.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course ....

unwanted pregnancy
the trauma and aftermath of abortion
AIDS / HIV
sexually transmitted diseases
the erosion of the state and santity of life and marriage
emotional scarring (this usually pops up later in life--fear of committment, fear of intimacy, or the opposite sexual deviancy, sexual obsession or obsessive behavior, etc.)
early and purposeful destruction of child hood innocence
feelings of inadequacy (comparing partners to previous partners, fear of not being experienced enough / too experienced, etc.)
destruction of conscience
destruction of self-esteem (self loathing, lack of self respect, lack of respect for others)
selfishness (the goal is to please my self, who cares about others)
devaluation of parental authority, or authority in general

Is that enough?

[Timberwolf]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/claps.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/claps.gif

Good post, HomeSchool...quite observant of the human condition...

[DoctorDoom]

[ QUOTE ]
Can you tell me exactly why premarital sex is so bad?

[/ QUOTE ]
Inasmuch as Morocco is almost 99% Muslim, you should be asking your friendly local imam about that, rather than trolling on American BBs.

[HomeschoolrsRUs]

Thank you, Timberwolf
I can only hope to be as eloquent, insightful, and wise as yourself one day! I love your posts, so it means so much to receive a compliment from you on one of mine.
Thanks again so much for the Kudos, they are truly appreciated
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon129.gif.

[Timberwolf]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon126.gif

[Halo]

[ QUOTE ]
HomeschoolrsRUs said:
unwanted pregnancy
the trauma and aftermath of abortion
AIDS / HIV
sexually transmitted diseases
the erosion of the state and santity of life and marriage
emotional scarring (this usually pops up later in life--fear of committment, fear of intimacy, or the opposite sexual deviancy, sexual obsession or obsessive behavior, etc.)
early and purposeful destruction of child hood innocence
feelings of inadequacy (comparing partners to previous partners, fear of not being experienced enough / too experienced, etc.)
destruction of conscience
destruction of self-esteem (self loathing, lack of self respect, lack of respect for others)
selfishness (the goal is to please my self, who cares about others)
devaluation of parental authority, or authority in general

Is that enough?

[/ QUOTE ]

- Contraceptives: Condoms, the Pill, IUDs, Norplant, Dep shot, Morning After Pill, etc.
- Women's Choice,
- Not advocating one night stands per se. Sex between two people who have been going out and both feel comfortable and have talked about it.
-See Above
-What the hell? Life and Marraige? If you get married to someone, but you're not compatable in bed, then your going to have problems.
- I'll admit emotional scarring does happen to some, but not the majority.
- childhood innocence? If you hide it, then they're going to find out w/out the knowledge that they need.
- That's true, but if you feel inadequate then don't do it.
- People who have sex out of marriage do have a conscience, They are like everyone else, execpt they have sex.
- Self-esteem can be raised or lowered by sex.
- When your with someone you care about, its going to be about the opposite, pleasing your partner and making sure it's good for them too.
- If your a Nazi, and a control freak then how do you think they'll view you then?

I understand where your coming from, you think your doing the right thing for your kids and I have to respect that, which I do. I just think you should be honest with your kids, talk to them about the pros and cons, then trust them to do what they feel is right based on what the situation is.

[Halo]

DoctorDoom said:[/b]
Inasmuch as Morocco is almost 99% Muslim, you should be asking your friendly local imam about that, rather than trolling on American BBs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I can't, I don't speak french or arabic so our conversations are pretty limited. Since I'm American it makes more sense for me to be on an American BB rather then a Canadian BB.

[HomeschoolrsRUs]

[ QUOTE ]
HomeschoolrsRUs said: unwanted pregnancy
Halo said: - Contraceptives: Condoms, the Pill, IUDs, Norplant, Dep shot, Morning After Pill, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

NONE of which are 100% effective -- Abstinence IS, that's a FACT.


[ QUOTE ]
HomeschoolrsRUs said: the trauma and aftermath of abortion
Halo said: - Women's Choice

[/ QUOTE ]

Which woman? That baby might very well be female -- she is not CHOOSING to die / be murdered. Don't go there, Sweetie, I KNOW from whence I speak. Abortion is murder, plain and simple. You wanna travel down this road, we might need to move to a different thread.


[ QUOTE ]
HomeschoolrsRUs said: AIDS / HIV &amp; sexually transmitted diseases
Halo said: - Not advocating one night stands per se. Sex between two people who have been going out and both feel comfortable and have talked about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

When two people sleep together, I don't care how committed and comfortable they are, if they have had sex before with other partners they are now part of those others' sexual history. Good people, nice people, clean people, chairtable people, compassionate people CAN get HIV / AIDS and sexually transmitted diseases. This is the lie that people buy -- only bad, sexually promiscuous people get those things. NOT TRUE. A person can be pure as the driven snow, and :"slip" one time with the person they KNOW they are going to marry, who is now a good person but was once sleep-around-Sam and doesn't know he has HIV until AFTER they sleep together.

Again -- Abstinence works 100% of the time, NO OTHER "safe sex" method can boast the same.


[ QUOTE ]
HomeschoolrsRUs said: the erosion of the state and santity of life and marriage
Halo said: -What the hell? Life and Marraige? If you get married to someone, but you're not compatable in bed, then your going to have problems.

[/ QUOTE ]

We have problems today -- marriage is not respected, protected, or even cherished anymore. It has been devalued and degraded. Marriage is MORE than sex, so much more. Two people unite in marriage, denying self and promoting the welfare and being of the one they pledge to. They combine to create a family, extend their family line, promote the safety, health, welfare of the children. Two become one -- in all things, yet still remain individuals. It is an act of highest selflessness and greatest selfishness. I do things for my spouse to lift him up, to help him succeed, to honor him for he is the father of my children and my loving soulmate -- but I do these things for selfish reasons, they make ME a better person, they gain ME a loving soulmate, they provide MY children with a loving father, etc.

All of these things are devalued when sex outside of marriage occurs. If a child is produced from this union, are the two "parents" united in the ways they will raise, protect, and nurture this child? If a sexually transmitted disease is passed on, do the two partners support and help each other through this trauma? No, nor do they even care, they just move on to the next consensual partner.


[ QUOTE ]
HomeschoolrsRUs said: emotional scarring (this usually pops up later in life--fear of committment, fear of intimacy, or the opposite sexual deviancy, sexual obsession or obsessive behavior, etc.)
Halo said: - I'll admit emotional scarring does happen to some, but not the majority.

[/ QUOTE ]

Aaaah, but our purpose on this nation is to remove ALL bad things from happening -- if there are only a few that this is happening too, that's a few too many. (So goes the argument FOR abortion -- if it were illegal, some women would die as a result of back-alley or self-induced abortions therefore abortion should be legal for ALL, even those that would NOT seek a back-alley or self-induced abortion if it were illegal.)

No, emotional scarring is much more prevalent than known because there is such guilt, remorse, and shame associated witht this that WAY too many suffer in silence, letting their lives reflect the pain, anguish, and guilt eat away at them and manifest itself in self-destructive ways.

My A/B Honor roll went down the drain, I tried to commit suicide three times, I slept with everyone I could find, I drank, did all KINDS of drugs, etc., all the while NO ONE knowing WHY I had changed, what had happened to me. I told NO ONE for YEARS.


[ QUOTE ]
HomeschoolrsRUs said: early and purposeful destruction of child hood innocence
Halo said: - childhood innocence? If you hide it, then they're going to find out w/out the knowledge that they need.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who said anything about hiding information? It is the PARENT'S responsibility to have open, honest discussions about sex, the ramifications of sex outside of marriage, the failure of the "safe sex" myth, and the beautiful, wonderful state of married intimate relations.

Schools do NOT do any of those things -- they tell you where what goes, what happens when it does, and of course, the "safe sex" myth. I'll give you a PERFECT example -- my nephew, who is 11 years old and in the 5th grade, has just complete "sex education" at his government (public) elementary school. He is SO ready to have sex, he tells anyone he can. He was so ready and willing to share his new-found sex expertise, that on an outing with his grandmother and my daughter (his cousin) to go shopping, he excitedly asked my daugther if she knew what a sperm was! He wanted to share all his wonderful knowledge with her -- she told him, "Dylan, whether I do or whether I don't, it is not a discussion that you and I should be having. Go talk to your mother." The grandmother? She just laughed at his question, and said hush now. And the sad thing is, when he goes to 6th grade next year, they start having co-ed dances. Oooh, how fun, sexed-up kids, dark corners, and slow-dancing --- hmmmm, a recipe for disaster.

Innocence is NOT about not knowing, it's about learning the RIGHT way. My son, his father and I -- my daughter, her father, and I -- have had detailed discussions about all things pertaining to physical relations -- but they do not go around bragging about it, they do not go around "sharing" their knowledge, etc. They RESPECT the information, they KNOW the information is intimate and personal, and they STILL have their childhood innocence. My nephew? All he wants to play is "doctor" now -- my daughter? all she wants to play is Barbie's and ride her horse. Which one do you think has the appropriate, healthy view of "sex"?


[ QUOTE ]
HomeschoolrsRUs said: feelings of inadequacy (comparing partners to previous partners, fear of not being experienced enough / too experienced, etc.)
Halo said: - That's true, but if you feel inadequate then don't do it.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is the basic desire of life to fall in love, marry, have children, raise a family, grow old together. All of these things can be undermined, at any time, by feelings of inadequacy. Let's take an example -- A happily married couple, both of whom have three sexual partners prior to marriage. Everything's fine for a while, then the baby comes -- the woman is not feeling attractive, and the husband's job requires him to work more hours and he must work alongside a former sexual partner (because the two had dated while he was working in a different department). The wife now starts to have feelings of inadequacy because this woman presents a threat. She knows that her husband knows about intimate things with this other woman. You can follow this along a familiar path. There are multiple examples I could state here, all along different but similar lines.


[ QUOTE ]
HomeschoolrsRUs said: destruction of conscience
Halo said: - People who have sex out of marriage do have a conscience, They are like everyone else, execpt they have sex.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, maybe I should have said erosion of conscience ultimately leading to the destruction of conscience. When a person becomes desensitized to any destructive, immoral, or wrong behavior, their conscience is most definitely affected. A person who has had sex with four different partners, surely isn't going to worry about he consequences of having sex with the fifth. They certainly aren't going to be bothered by whether or not their actions are going to have a negative affect on the person they are having sex with now, or the person they had sex with last night, or the person they will have sex with tomorrow.


[ QUOTE ]
HomeschoolrsRUs said: destruction of self-esteem (self loathing, lack of self respect, lack of respect for others)
selfishness (the goal is to please my self, who cares about others)
devaluation of parental authority, or authority in general
Halo said: - Self-esteem can be raised or lowered by sex.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey you finally got one right!! But i'll bet that was a typo.

Yes, I had heard that prostitutes have the highest self-esteem of all sexually active females, including those in loving, happy marriages.

Get real -- pre-marital sex most definitely can have an affect on self-esteem. Girls are looking for a loving, caring, genuine relationship -- boys are looking for SEX, SEX, and more SEX. Afterwords, girls usually end up feeling more rejected, more insecure, more self-conscious -- boys end up feeling more masculine, more powerful, and more RANDY. Niether are entering into the act because they are COMMITTED to a loving stable relationship whereby desiring to please, uplift, and honor the partner.


[ QUOTE ]
Halo said: - When your with someone you care about, its going to be about the opposite, pleasing your partner and making sure it's good for them too.
- If your a Nazi, and a control freak then how do you think they'll view you then?

I understand where your coming from, you think your doing the right thing for your kids and I have to respect that, which I do. I just think you should be honest with your kids, talk to them about the pros and cons, then trust them to do what they feel is right based on what the situation is.

[/ QUOTE ]

I appreciate you're trying to see where I'm coming from, but as you admit you're not quite there. I don't THINK I am doing the right thing for my kids, I KNOW I am doing the right thing for them. The alternative is dangerous, disasterous, and despicable.

I am COMPLETELY honest with my children. "Sex" cannot be taught without a moral filter. We agree, I'm sure, only the PARENTS can decide what that moral filter should be or will be. Schools should get OUT of the "Sex Ed" business. As for trusting my children? The key word there is "children" -- we do not "trust" children to make decisions about smoking, about joining the military, about driving a car, about whether to take or sell drugs. We TEACH them what is right, we protect them from what we can, we guide them through the rough waters of peer pressure, and we provide them with all the CORRECT information we are able, and we are THERE to be their parents. Children are incapable of raising themselves, and it is NOT the government's job to do so either. PARENTS have to step up and BE PARENTS, and the government needs to let them.

[Timberwolf]

Now we shall see how open-minded to change he is.

[Halo]

Sorry about that last post, I was still shaking off the last of a hangover from the weekend so I wasn't my usual coherant self.

[ QUOTE ]
HomeschoolrsRUs said:
[ QUOTE ]
HomeschoolrsRUs said: unwanted pregnancy
Halo said: - Contraceptives: Condoms, the Pill, IUDs, Norplant, Dep shot, Morning After Pill, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

NONE of which are 100% effective -- Abstinence IS, that's a FACT.

[/ QUOTE ]


Well if you believe in the Bible and in Immaculate Conception then that would be wrong and hence not a fact.


[ QUOTE ]
HomeschoolrsRUs said: the trauma and aftermath of abortion
Halo said: - Women's Choice

[/ QUOTE ]

Which woman? That baby might very well be female -- she is not CHOOSING to die / be murdered. Don't go there, Sweetie, I KNOW from whence I speak. Abortion is murder, plain and simple. You wanna travel down this road, we might need to move to a different thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I didn't really explain myself on that one, and your right we would have to go to a different thread. Maybe later. I only have enough time to do handle one post as it is.


[ QUOTE ]
HomeschoolrsRUs said: AIDS / HIV &amp; sexually transmitted diseases
Halo said: - Not advocating one night stands per se. Sex between two people who have been going out and both feel comfortable and have talked about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

When two people sleep together, I don't care how committed and comfortable they are, if they have had sex before with other partners they are now part of those others' sexual history. Good people, nice people, clean people, chairtable people, compassionate people CAN get HIV / AIDS and sexually transmitted diseases. This is the lie that people buy -- only bad, sexually promiscuous people get those things. NOT TRUE. A person can be pure as the driven snow, and :"slip" one time with the person they KNOW they are going to marry, who is now a good person but was once sleep-around-Sam and doesn't know he has HIV until AFTER they sleep together.

Again -- Abstinence works 100% of the time, NO OTHER "safe sex" method can boast the same.

[/ QUOTE ]

They have this new thing out nowadays, because sometimes you don't know if you have an STD or not, but these days you can get tested!

[ QUOTE ]
HomeschoolrsRUs said: the erosion of the state and santity of life and marriage
Halo said: -What the hell? Life and Marraige? If you get married to someone, but you're not compatable in bed, then your going to have problems.

[/ QUOTE ]



I never said marriage was about sex.

[ QUOTE ]
HomeschoolrsRUs said: emotional scarring (this usually pops up later in life--fear of committment, fear of intimacy, or the opposite sexual deviancy, sexual obsession or obsessive behavior, etc.)
Halo said: - I'll admit emotional scarring does happen to some, but not the majority.

[/ QUOTE ]

Aaaah, but our purpose on this nation is to remove ALL bad things from happening -- if there are only a few that this is happening too, that's a few too many. (So goes the argument FOR abortion -- if it were illegal, some women would die as a result of back-alley or self-induced abortions therefore abortion should be legal for ALL, even those that would NOT seek a back-alley or self-induced abortion if it were illegal.)

No, emotional scarring is much more prevalent than known because there is such guilt, remorse, and shame associated witht this that WAY too many suffer in silence, letting their lives reflect the pain, anguish, and guilt eat away at them and manifest itself in self-destructive ways.

My A/B Honor roll went down the drain, I tried to commit suicide three times, I slept with everyone I could find, I drank, did all KINDS of drugs, etc., all the while NO ONE knowing WHY I had changed, what had happened to me. I told NO ONE for YEARS.

[/ QUOTE ]

Correcting every wrong? Removing all bad things from happening? Only thing is your definition of "wrong" or "bad" differs from mine, and my definition of "wrong" or "bad" differs from someone else, etc, etc, etc. My friend Nadia has something to add "I have recreational sex from time to time, and my grades are fine. I have never tried to commit suicide, I only sleep with people I am attracted to, I drink (but responsibly) and smoke hash."(which is safe in my book, but again that's an entirely different thread altogether)

I don't have time right now to finish replying to your whole post, but tommorrow I'll have more time.

[Timberwolf]

Halo...after reading the first of those responses, I figured, "why bother?". You are such a blithering idiot...really, to compare human activity to something GOD did. It's called comparing apples to oranges.

Try to keep up...I know it's difficult to wrap that emotion-driven mind around logical thought, but do try.

[DeclinetoState]

HomeschoolrsRUs said: "Abstinence IS [effective], that's a FACT."

Halo said: "Well if you believe in the Bible and in Immaculate Conception then that would be wrong and hence not a fact."

The Immaculate Conception was the conception of Mary by her parents, not Mary's conception of Jesus by the Holy Spirit. More correctly, "Mary was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin at the first moment of her animation, and sanctifying grace was given to her before sin could have taken effect in her soul."

Catholic Encyclopedia (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm)

Whether Mary was without sin, and whether her conception was at the point of "animation," rather than when her parents had sex, are topics for other threads, however.

[HomeschoolrsRUs]

Halo,
Don't bother. I have given rational, intelligent answers to your request.

We can find no base upon which to have a discourse -- you seem to come from the point of view that everything is relative....if I want to do it, it feels good, I like it, then I can do it -- doesn't matter who it affects, how it affects me, or what the consequences will be in the future.

I come from the point of view that I have an absolute guidebook -- The Bible -- which is God's Holy Word made manifest on earth for the purpose of helping us answer those seemingly unanswerable questions. I believe in absolute truth, absolute evil, absolute right, absolute wrong -- you apparently do not.

[Halo]

hey Timber no need for name calling, it's just not very nice. I like apples and oranges, execpt when the orange juice squirts in your eyes, that hurts. All I was saying that you can't claim abstinence is 100% effective if you believe in the bible, unless you claim to know "God's" plan, but you can't do that can you? And in the words of Jamie Kennedy "Don't be hatin'"

Forever yours,
Halo

[Halo]

Home, which bible do you have for your guidebook? there's so many different translations and versions with different meanings it's all so confusing to me - I'm just a blithering idiot after all. But you believe everything is black and white? There's no middle ground for you? No full color spectrum? Do you believe in "turning the other cheek" or "an eye for an eye".

[Timberwolf]

If the shoe fits it's merely observation.

Ok, let's play.

How many women have become pregnant absent intercourse? One

How many women have become pregnant while engaging in intercourse utilizing condoms? Tens of millions

Utilizing "the Pill"?? Tens of millions

Utilizing "the rythm method"? Hundreds of millions

Go buy a clue, troll.

[Halo]

Why do I buy them? I'm poor so do you know where I can get any coupons? I like playing with you.

There is always a risk when you play with a guy's bodily fluid, but the risk is very, very small. Since you have decided to forgo with statistics backing your claim that having sex gives you the same ratio of getting pregnant as playing russian roulette with a 40 megaton thermo-nuclear warhead, then I will too. (too much work anyway)

You would be more likely to get run over every time you try to cross a street - and that's not nearly as much fun. Sure you can always find a chick who says she got pregnant using any of the above mentioned contraceptive devices, then again you can always find a chick who says she got pregnant without having sex.

And just to ruffle your...fur As a last result (if morning after pill also fails) then there's ....abortion, ahhh I said it! Please don't call me names now. Speaking of name calling, I hereby cristen thee Lawn Gnome Boy (goes with the troll idea).
Ok Lawn Gnome Boy, it's your turn. Oh can I be The Hemorroidal Troll? It's because I'll never go away and the more you scratch me the more the more I annoy you. Thank you.
Love, Halo

[Timberwolf]

Thank you for making my point.

40+ million abortions since the sexual revolution of the 60s alone. Lends more than just a bit of credence to my condom, pill, rhythm statements...geez kid, you're not even bad at this. You're less than bad. You suck (but keep that a secret...Yukon might come callin' on ya if that becomes public knowledge).

But, PLEASE, continue trying to ruffle my fur, I enjoy a good laugh every now and again...although, I must say that presently you're just being an idiot speaking from a position of ignorance.

[jag]

[ QUOTE ]
Halo said:
All I was saying that you can't claim abstinence is 100% effective if you believe in the bible, ....
Forever yours,
Halo

[/ QUOTE ]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smack.gif

[HomeschoolrsRUs]

Hal,

[ QUOTE ]
Halo said:
Home, which bible do you have for your guidebook? there's so many different translations and versions with different meanings it's all so confusing to me

[/ QUOTE ]

THE Bible, Hal -- as for the translations, since you seem to be so confused, my suggestion would be to get ALL of them along with Strong's Concordance and begin earnest Bible study. Not only will this help alleviate your confusion, but it could also save your eternal soul.


[ QUOTE ]
Halo said: - I'm just a blithering idiot after all.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't believe I have ever called you a derogatory name (certainly not an idiot, much less a blithering idiot). But if that is your genuine opinion of yourself, I would suggest you refer back to the paragraph before this one.


[ QUOTE ]
Halo said:But you believe everything is black and white? There's no middle ground for you? No full color spectrum?

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe the terms I used were absolute right, absolute wrong, absolute truth, and absolute evil. Since you are so confused about the Bible, it only makes sense that these terms would be unfamiliar to you as well. I try my best, as a Christian yet sinner, to view all things through the filter of God's Word, through prayer and mediation, through wise counsel, and through faith.

In referring to THIS particular thread -- pre-marital sex, sex out of wedlock, adulterous sex, are all absolute wrongs. If this is not so, defend how they are right, and please explain upon what wise philosophical foundation you base your answers. (I am not trying to be facetious here. I base my belief in the absolute wrongness of these behaviors on God's Word, which is my wise philosophical foundation. I also believe these things are absolutely evil, as well, based upon the same foundation.)

[ QUOTE ]
Halo said:Do you believe in "turning the other cheek" or "an eye for an eye".

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you asking this of me in a general manner, or as relates to this particular thread?

If you are seeking a general answer -- Yes, and yes. This is one of those that also refers back to the first paragraph of this post. The BEST explanation I could possibly give you would pale to that of the one YOU yourself would find if you took the time to study God's Word.

If you are asking concerning this thread, please re-phrase the question using or referring to a context.

[Halo]

Hey Timber! How are you today? Are you saying that every single abortion since the 1960's is a result from failed contraceptives? Well I like to amuse people, and if I have to do it from a postion of ignorance, well then by golly I'll do it! I suck lots of things, lollipops, ice cream sometimes, and straws. But I don't think that's a crime to Yukonians.

[Faithful_Servant]

Just a few questions...
1 - - Do you think that unwed pregnant junior/senior high school girls is a good thing or a bad thing?

2 - - Do you know of a method of birth-control that is as effective as abstinence?

3 - - How many unwed junior/senior high school mothers have you talked to about this issue?

4 - - Have you seen the numbers comparing school-age pregancies and the level of commitment to abstinence in our schools? (they move in opposite directions, just in case you haven't seen them)

5 - - Are you trying to get banned?

[Timberwolf]

[ QUOTE ]
Halo said:
Hey Timber! How are you today? Are you saying that every single abortion since the 1960's is a result from failed contraceptives?

[/ QUOTE ]
Did I say that?? Don't think so...

[ QUOTE ]
Well I like to amuse people, and if I have to do it from a postion of ignorance, well then by golly I'll do it!

[/ QUOTE ]
Hokey dokey....whatever floats yer boat.

[ QUOTE ]
I suck lots of things, lollipops, ice cream sometimes, and straws. But I don't think that's a crime to Yukonians.

[/ QUOTE ]
Dunno 'bout that...the Mooselover from "north o' da border" would likely go into heat if he saw ya suckin' on anything. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif

[Halo]

just a few answers

1. Depends on the situation personally, but if I were a girl and in high school I wouldn't think getting knocked up would be a good thing.

2. Getting you tubes tied.

3. 2

4. No

4. No, not really.

-I never said that sex wasn't without risks, nor implied it.

[Halo]

[ QUOTE ]
Timberwolf said:
Did I say that?? Don't think so...

[/ QUOTE ]
Well you certainly implied it
[ QUOTE ]
Timberwolf said:
Thank you for making my point.40+ million abortions since the sexual revolution of the 60s alone. Lends more than just a bit of credence to my condom, pill, rhythm statements.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which lends more than just a bit of credence to my statement about your statement.

[ QUOTE ]
Hokey dokey....whatever floats yer boat.


[/ QUOTE ]
I like boats, you know they found the titanic recently.

[ QUOTE ]

Dunno 'bout that...the Mooselover from "north o' da border" would likely go into heat if he saw ya suckin' on anything. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
Damnit I much I hate it Timber, we have agreed on something. Just because I'm not conserative doesn't mean I don't hate Canadians as much as the next guy. Those beady eyed monsters just posed and ready to invade.

[dajoga]

[ QUOTE ]
Halo said:
Can you tell me exactly why premarital sex is so bad? I've heard a lot of different reasons and I'd like to hear yours.

[/ QUOTE ]

Didn't you read Doc's post about the higher divorce rate for non-virgins at marriage? Of course, you may think divorce is a good thing since you don't believe the Bible. And not believeing the Bible means you don't believe anything is good or bad, just a matter of taste.

[eric]

I've seen stats (albeit only on funny internet sites) suggesting divorce rates are higher for christians than for other faith groups.

I wonder if that's true.

[Faithful_Servant]

[ QUOTE ]
eric said:
I've seen stats (albeit only on funny internet sites) suggesting divorce rates are higher for christians than for other faith groups.

I wonder if that's true.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is if you don't take into consideration the level of commitment the couples have to Christ first and then each other. The problem in America is the number of people who call themselves Christians and yet have no real relationship with their Savior. The stat that I look at is the one that says if a couple prays togther on a regular basis, their chance of divorce is substantially smaller than the average. Couples who pray together are more fully committed to their relationship with their Savior and with each other.

[Timberwolf]

[ QUOTE ]
Halo said:
[ QUOTE ]
Timberwolf said:
Did I say that?? Don't think so...

[/ QUOTE ]
Well you certainly implied it

[/ QUOTE ]
Nooo...I implied that 10s of millions of women had become pregnant from failed contraception while only 1 had become pregnant because of abstinence. The abortion figures merely lend credence to that position because absent failed contraception, abortion isn't really necessary.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Timberwolf said:
Thank you for making my point.40+ million abortions since the sexual revolution of the 60s alone. Lends more than just a bit of credence to my condom, pill, rhythm statements.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which lends more than just a bit of credence to my statement about your statement.

[/ QUOTE ]
Naw, you read what you wanted to read, not what I actually wrote.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hokey dokey....whatever floats yer boat.


[/ QUOTE ]
I like boats, you know they found the titanic recently.

[/ QUOTE ]
LOL...the Titanic didn't float so well, IIRC. Do you know if they found Jack's body? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Dunno 'bout that...the Mooselover from "north o' da border" would likely go into heat if he saw ya suckin' on anything. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
Damnit I much I hate it Timber, we have agreed on something. Just because I'm not conserative doesn't mean I don't hate Canadians as much as the next guy. Those beady eyed monsters just posed and ready to invade.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry, my bad...you don't know who Yukon is. He's a real piece of work. Claims to be a former clergyman and he's from Canada. Can't remember the exact context of how he got the moniker "mooselover", but I do remember laughing my ass off at the time.

Actually, being fairly close to Candada (couple hours south of Winnipeg), I find most western Canadians to be good people. Most of the pricks are in the eastern part of the country. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif

[Halo]

mmm tasty. Well divorce certaintly works out for the chick. And No, me not believing in the bible means I don't let a bunch of fables dictate the way I live my life.

[Rink]

the Bible is not fables, it has been proven to be fact by archaology dear.

[HomeschoolrsRUs]

[ QUOTE ]
Halo said:
mmm tasty. Well divorce certaintly works out for the chick. And No, me not believing in the bible means I don't let a bunch of fables dictate the way I live my life.

[/ QUOTE ]

Eat, drink, and be merry ... for tomorrow you die (figuratively, not literally). And you're REALLY not going to like the place you go then. But hey, live it up now.

[Triller]

When I was young, girls wouldn't have sex with me. I think that says something dramatic and telling.

[DesertFox]

About them, or you? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif

[Timberwolf]

That's cold...../ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif

[liberal_chick]

I've been sexually active for 3 years, and I don't regret it for a second. I highly doubt I will regret it. Just because I have chosen to share an intimate act with a person I was in love with does not mean that I am more likely to cheat. I have never been unfaithful to any of my partners, and I have never even had a desire to be unfaithful. I'll come back in 20 years to tell you how wonderful my marriage to my fiance has gone.

[Timberwolf]

Hopefully, your relationship is based upon something other than sex...my first marriage was and it was a living hell...

Good luck to you.

[liberal_chick]

Thank you. My relationship is based on a lot more than sex, especially since we live 700 miles apart from each other. Sex doesn't come that often.

[HomeschoolrsRUs]

We have rules because they are good for us. Some choose to break rules. Some that break the rules never get caught. Does that then negate the rules? NO.

Sex without marriage is wrong, unhealthy, unsafe, and unwise. There will always be those that choose this path. Some will regret it, others unfortunately may not. That doesn't change the fact that it is wrong, unhealthy, unsafe, and unwise.

Consenting adults are free to do as they please. Children are INCAPABLE of knowlegeable consent. They may think they want to do something, they may go ahead and do it, but rarely do the consequences ever cross the mind of a hormone-raging adolescent. The dangers of promiscuous sex, out-of-wedlock sex, underage sex are real. Sexually transmitted diseases CAN cause serious health problems and later diminish or even eliminate the capacity for bearing children (in females). In boys, they can do serious harm as well. AIDS is a killer -- that's a fact -- there is no cure. If condoms fail 20% of the time, then 20 out 100 fail. What happens to the 20 who were wearing them, or the 20 who were having sex with the ones wearing them? STD's, unwanted pregnancy, AIDS, herpes ... all real possibilities. There is NO SUCH THING as safe sex. The ONLY method of safety, is abstinence . . . it works 100% of the time every time it's tried.

I don't believe a child's health, safety, and welfare are worth risking for sex. I believe most parent's would feel the same way. And I would argue, so would most of those same children, once grown. The risk is too great for the small amount of pleasure.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon27.gif

[liberal_chick]

Well, good thing I'm not, nor was I when I lost my virginity, a child.

I knew the risks full well before I decided to have sex with my partner. We had both discussed the possible outcomes of sexual intercourse and we both had discussed what our actions would be in each situation. We had a serious, committed relationship based on honesty and trust.

There are no rules that say I cannot have premarital sex. I am not a Christian, and my religion does not condemn sexual activity.

Sex before marriage is only wrong to some. In your mind, it is wrong. In many minds, it is wrong. However, in many other minds, it isn't wrong. It is only unhealthy if you are having sex with an unhealthy person (and before you have sex with a person you should both be checked for STDs, and you should trust each other). As to it being unsafe, my above statement applies. It is only unwise if you are jumping into sex with your eyes closed.

[HomeschoolrsRUs]

[ QUOTE ]
liberal_chick said:
Well, good thing I'm not, nor was I when I lost my virginity, a child.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, it was (is) a good thing you were not a child.

[ QUOTE ]
I knew the risks full well before I decided to have sex with my partner. We had both discussed the possible outcomes of sexual intercourse and we both had discussed what our actions would be in each situation. We had a serious, committed relationship based on honesty and trust.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you define "serious, committed relationship based on honesty and trust"? Are you still together (with the one referenced in this paragraph? or the one mentioned concerning your virginity?)


[ QUOTE ]
There are no rules that say I cannot have premarital sex. I am not a Christian, and my religion does not condemn sexual activity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, there are rules, they are located in the Bible. Whether or not your religion condemns sexual activity or not, God says it is a sin outside of the sanctity of marriage. It matters not if you believe it or not. Anyone can justify anything they desire -- doesn't make it right, moral, or not an act of sin.


[ QUOTE ]
Sex before marriage is only wrong to some. In your mind, it is wrong. In many minds, it is wrong. However, in many other minds, it isn't wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's wrong, period. But people do wrong things all the time. We justify our actions because our desire is greater than our will to do what is right. The "mind" of some may say it is not wrong, but in their "heart" they know it is.


[ QUOTE ]
It is only unhealthy if you are having sex with an unhealthy person (and before you have sex with a person you should both be checked for STDs, and you should trust each other).

[/ QUOTE ]

Checking to see if you have STD's is fine ... but some take long periods of time to show up (HIV, for one). Trusting each other won't make a difference either if one day one partner tests positive from a sexual encounter that happened 5 years before their relationship. Trust simply will not make the disease go away.


[ QUOTE ]
As to it being unsafe, my above statement applies. It is only unwise if you are jumping into sex with your eyes closed.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's always unsafe and unwise. The risks are too great. Besides, when you wait for the right one and marry, it's like opening a bottle of fine 100 year old wine. Truly good things are worth waiting for.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon27.gif

[liberal_chick]

I do not follow the Bible. I view it as a historical piece of literature. I do not believe that Jesus Christ was anything more than a good man. I do not believe in, or worship, the Christian God.
I am not a Christian. I do not follow the Christian rules. Why should I?

I have had 3 sexual partners in my lifetime. I do not regret my experiences, in fact, I'm glad that I've had them.

[Timberwolf]

[ QUOTE ]
I do not follow the Christian rules. Why should I?

[/ QUOTE ]
Why wouldn't you?

Our time here on planet Earth is but the prelude of greater (or not) things to come. HOW we live our lives while we are here, determines WHAT our lives in the Hereafter will be.

Should we show the ability to discipline and control our carnal selves, in accordance with God's will for us, we shall be rewarded with everlasting spiritual life and joy that is unknowable while we are here. If we CHOOSE to throw discipline to the wind and live an "anything goes" lifestyle, we shall reap the consequences of defying His wishes and experience eternal separation from our Creator after we pass from this world.

FWIW...

[liberal_chick]

First of all, I do not throw discipline to the wind, nor do I live an "anything goes" lifestyle.

Second of all, why should I follow a religion that I view as false? Why should I pretend to worship a God I don't even believe in? I have found my path. You have found yours. I am not on your path, and you are not on mine.

So please keep your false God off of my path.

[Timberwolf]

Explain "your false God"...and why you think He's not the one true God.

[Faithful_Servant]

[ QUOTE ]
liberal_chick said:
First of all, I do not throw discipline to the wind, nor do I live an "anything goes" lifestyle.

Second of all, why should I follow a religion that I view as false? Why should I pretend to worship a God I don't even believe in? I have found my path. You have found yours. I am not on your path, and you are not on mine.

So please keep your false God off of my path.

[/ QUOTE ]

My One True God is on your path whether you like it or not. He's there asking you not to go down the path you've chosen. He's there walking beside you every step of the way and He's not going to stop just because you don't believe in Him.

You said that Jesus was a "good man", have you ever reallly looked at this "good man".
He died willingly for crimes He did not commit and He was raised again three days later. You want proof? Of the 12 disciples that followed Him, one died of old age, one committed suicide, the other ten were all killed. Their crime?? They refused to deny that Jesus had been resurrected. Do you think that they would willingly die horrible deaths for something they didn't know was a fact??
He made it very clear that He was on completely equal footing with God on multiple occasions. If He wasn't, then He was a complete loon or a liar. Was He insane? If He Was, He was the the most consistently insane person ever born, because He never once varied from the path that He had chosen.
As a liberal, you claim to be open-minded, so how about you open up your mind to something other than "your god" (I notice that you don't give any details about your god, Why is that??). There's a book out there called "More Than A Carpenter", it's a explanation by the author (Josh McDowell) of why he believes that Jesus is Who He claims He is. Are you open-minded enough to look into another person's faith or are you like most liberals truly are, close-minded to anything outside of what leaves them feeling comfortable?

[Apollo5600]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/claps.gif

[liberal_chick]

I was open-minded towards your God for 16 years. I believe that's a long of enough chance. Christianity does not make sense to me. I could never believe in the Bible, as it was an extreme hypocrisy and contradiction.

I could never belive in the Christian God, as he is a walking contradiction.

I have no desire to give Christianity another chance. I have found my path. I am a pagan.

You ask about my god. Which one? I worship many gods and goddesses. My patron goddess, and the one I normally go to, is Isis.

You are free to follow Christianity, as I am free to follow my religion. I do not try to convince you your path is wrong, nor do I try to get you to be a pagan.

[Timberwolf]

[ QUOTE ]
liberal_chick said:
I was open-minded towards your God for 16 years. I believe that's a long of enough chance. Christianity does not make sense to me. I could never believe in the Bible, as it was an extreme hypocrisy and contradiction.

[/ QUOTE ]
Then you'll have no problem at all citing examples for us, will you?

[ QUOTE ]
I could never belive in the Christian God, as he is a walking contradiction.

[/ QUOTE ]
Again, give me ONE example.

[ QUOTE ]
You ask about my god. Which one? I worship many gods and goddesses. My patron goddess, and the one I normally go to, is Isis.

[/ QUOTE ]
And you call OUR God "false"...practicing witchcraft ain't such a good thing, ya know.

[ QUOTE ]
You are free to follow Christianity, as I am free to follow my religion. I do not try to convince you your path is wrong, nor do I try to get you to be a pagan.

[/ QUOTE ]
You'll be in my prayers...

[liberal_chick]

I'll give you an example. The Christian God claims to be a merciful god, a god of LOVE. Yet throughout the Old Testament he burns and plagues villages endlessly. He took the land away from hard working people to give it to the Israelites. Their land of milk and honey was preoccupied. He is an angry, spiteful, jealous god, and I want no part of his religion.

[Timberwolf]

You mean after He gave those pagans the opportunity to turn their backs upon idol worship and turn to Him? It is HIS playground, after all.

Maybe you refer to the homosexuals that wanted to "have their way" with His angels when they were visiting Lot.

You'd have to be more specific if you want better answers.

btw - were you ever punished for anything you did as a child? I only ask because God was much harder on His own "kids" than on the others...

And FTR, those plagues were sent as a reprimand on those that screwed around with the Israelites, were they not?

[liberal_chick]

So that justifies mass murder?

[Timberwolf]

Mass murder...get real.

[The_Swede]

[ QUOTE ]
liberal_chick said:
I have no desire to give Christianity another chance. I have found my path. I am a pagan.

You ask about my god. Which one? I worship many gods and goddesses. My patron goddess, and the one I normally go to, is Isis.


[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting. The good old time religion of the classical world or some later hodgepodge?

You better watch your step Timberwolf. She might have you thrown to the lions. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[dajoga]

l_c--Well, good thing I'm not, nor was I when I lost my virginity, a child.
Nope, you didn't lose it you gave it away unless it was taken by rape. Something that is lost has the possibility of being found.

l_c-- I do not believe that Jesus Christ was anything more than a good man.
So a liar and con-artist is a "good" man?

l_c-- I am not on your path, and you are not on mine. And if your path is wrong, then what?

i_c-- I worship many gods and goddesses. My patron goddess, and the one I normally go to, is Isis. And the evidence these gods exist is........?

You say my God is a "false God" yet you asked me to pray for your fiance. Why? What possible help could a "false God" be? Sounds like you have a nagging suspicion that you're on the wrong path. You don't suppose God is trying to get your fiance's attention do you? Or maybe yours?

[liberal_chick]

I ask you to pray for my fiance because when you pray, you send out energy. That's why I believe prayer (to any God) works. And if a "loving" God would do that to an innocent man, put him through so much pain, to "get my attention" or to spite me, then I definitely do not want any part of a god like that.

What evidence do you have that your God exist? I've got my proof, I've seen miracles happen through my gods. I am not trying to prove anything to you, because it doesn't matter if I have all the proof in the world, you would not change, and I do not want you to change.

[Timberwolf]

Contrary to popular belief, God doesn't "do" anythng to us, we do it to ourselves.

There is no such thing as "bad things happening to good people"...it is a wonder that any good can happen in our lives at all which goes to show the love and long-suffering of God when it comes to us.

This isn't to say God won't remove His hand of protection and allow us to suffer the consequences of our actions because He most certainly will and does do it. But, He doesn't "do" anything to bring us harm...that is completely of our own doing.

[dajoga]

[ QUOTE ]
I ask you to pray for my fiance because when you pray, you send out energy.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well that's your opinion, but when I pray I don't send any "energy" but rather I ask God to do something but only if it's within His will.

[ QUOTE ]
And if a "loving" God would do that to an innocent man, put him through so much pain, to "get my attention" or to spite me, then I definitely do not want any part of a god like that.

[/ QUOTE ] No one is "innocent" except Jesus Christ. We've all sinned against a holy God and are guilty. Sickness and death are the result of sin not the fault of a "loving" God. Besides, this life even if it lasts 100 years is but a drop in the bucket compared to eternity. As Rick Warren said, "Life on earth is just the dress rehearsal before the real production." Where you will do your "real production" is determined by what you do with Jesus Christ. He said that He was "the way" to heaven. Either He's a liar, or deceived, or telling the truth. What say you?

[ QUOTE ]
What evidence do you have that your God exist?

[/ QUOTE ]
He created the universe. What has your gods created? (I'm not being sarcastic)

Since I've prayed for your fiance, if he gets well will you believe that your gods are false and the God of the Bible is the true God?

[Apollo5600]

Concerning your "miracles"

you should probably check this link out

An Open Letter to Wiccan Believers from a Former Spiritist (http://christiananswers.net/q-esp/esp-wiccans.html)

Also, im pretty sure you have never looked into Christianity's evidence since you claim there is none.

We have a mryiad of archaeological discoveries that demonstrates the historical and cultural accuracy of the Bible.

Archaeological findings demonstrating that the Biblical prophets accurately predicted events hundreds of years before they occurred.

Prophecy Jesus (http://www.neverthirsty.org/pp/proph/main.html)


We know Jesus existed, and who he claimed to be. We know his apostles died bloody deaths because they refused to denie that Jesus had been ressurected.

Historical Jesus (http://www.neverthirsty.org/pp/hist/main.html)

Not to mention the 3 hours of darkness during Christ's crucifixion.

[ QUOTE ]
What conclusions might we draw from this?

Well, frankly, I personally am quite surprised at where I ended up on this issue.


I originally thought that I would end up saying that the Thallus' evidence for the death of Jesus was positive, but shaky at best, but my study has led me to a much stronger position. It seems clear to me now, in the context of the historiographical stature of both Thallus and Julius Africanus, that this early piece of scholarly evidence has EQUAL or GREATER credibility to even the official history of Tacitus or the official correspondence of Pliny (to be examined later).


The reference to the miraculous darkness around the Crucifixion of my Lord--even documented as to the hours by Phlegon!--is powerful evidence not only for the 'existence of Jesus', but for the reliability of those portions of the gospel accounts that describe that phenomena. In the public records of the day, a "most fearful darkness" followed our rejection of the Light of the World. Remind you of today?


Glenn Miller
4/2/96

[/ QUOTE ]

Extrabiblical Witnesses to Jesus before 200 a.d. (http://www.christian-thinktank.com/jrthal.html)



There is more and more, if you say there is none, its because you have not looked. Seems the hypocracy would be coming from you? Do research and come to your own conclusions, before dismissing what you know nothing about.

Give a specific example of any wrong doing on God's part. Give a specific example of a contradiction anywhere in the bible, so that we may address it.

Tell me something, what do your gods consider evil? And what is their punishment for it?

My God IS love, but he is not a slave to love. He is also a God of Justice. When you break his law, the price is eternal seperation from God.

How can a God of love send anybody to Hell? (http://christiananswers.net/q-grace/hell-and-god.html)

The bible clearly teaches that no one is good enough to get into heaven, do you agree with that?


As a pagan, you worship a multitude of god's and goddesses (and varius spirit beings)

Can you really relie on these beings? Can you really trust them? Would they save you if you called apon them for help?

[liberal_chick]

[ QUOTE ]
Apollo5600 said:

Can you really relie[sic] on these beings? Can you really trust them? Would they save you if you called apon[sic] them for help?




[/ QUOTE ]
They already have proved themselves to me, several times. I call upon them, and they listen, and answer.

I refuse to debate my religion with you any further. This is not a topic on religion, this is a topic about sexually active young girls. If you wish to debate religion with me, then start a new thread. Even then, I'm not sure I'd wish to participate in a debate with you, because I've done this all a thousand times before. Debating religion is pointless because you can't change my mind and I can't change yours. So unless you wish to become informed, and not to evangelize to me, then I am through discussing my faith with you.

[liberal_chick]

Also, I do not call upon, nor do I worship, or try to contact, spirits.

[Apollo5600]

Thats fine

I respect your dicision not to talk about your religion, or answer my questions or address the multiple times we've proved your opinions wrong.

I wouldn't either, if I were you.

But I gurantee you, your getting involved insomething you will regret.

Again, I ask you to check out this
Open Letter to Wiccan Believers from a Former Spiritist (http://christiananswers.net/q-esp/esp-wiccans.html)

That is all.

Continue to have an irrational obsessive objection to Christianity, ignore all proof and continue on your way. Freethinkers never were so free lol.

The case is closed!

----------------

About the topic at hand...

Do you agree that love making is a beautiful thing bettween 2 people who love each other?

[Faithful_Servant]

[ QUOTE ]
liberal_chick said:
I ask you to pray for my fiance because when you pray, you send out energy. That's why I believe prayer (to any God) works.

And if a "loving" God would do that to an innocent man, put him through so much pain, to "get my attention" or to spite me, then I definitely do not want any part of a god like that.


[/ QUOTE ]

Let me see if I have this right...
On one hand, you believe that prayer to any god works
On the other hand, you don't want anything to do with my One True God
On yet another hand (borrowed one from my neighbor), you want us to pray to our God for your fiance's health.

Lady, you are one confused individual.

Jesus did not offer His life to spite you or get your attention. The price of sin is blood, even your own Egyptian gods recognize this, for thousands of years people had been paying the price through animal sacrifice, but this had become meaningless to them, a dead ritual. It was time for one sacrifice to be made. A 100% perfect, pure and innocent sacrifice had to be made. Jesus offered Himself as that sacrifice to atone for all sin. Now, all that is necessary is for each of us to embrace Him as God's Word says to and we walk in that atonement.

[ QUOTE ]

What evidence do you have that your God exist? I've got my proof, I've seen miracles happen through my gods. .


[/ QUOTE ]

Personal witnesses, changed lives, miracles, 2000 years of people willing to die for their commitment to my God. (Have you ever heard of anyone willing to die before they would deny your God?).

[ QUOTE ]

I am not trying to prove anything to you, because it doesn't matter if I have all the proof in the world, you would not change, and I do not want you to change


[/ QUOTE ]

If your god is true and you believe following her is the best way, why wouldn't you want everyone to follow her? Don't give me any of that garbage about "everyone needs to choose their own way" because even you know that not every way is good.

[Apollo5600]

shhhhhhh

liberal_chick doesn't want to talk about it!

Reminds me of a girl I once knew, cought her lying her ass off to me. Confronted her, and all of a sudden she didn't want to talk about it!!

"I hear no evil, I speak no evil, I see no evil."

[Faithful_Servant]

Part of me get really angry at the level of deception she lives under, but a bigger part of me is grief-stricken about it. She's been deceived by a lie and unless she sees the Truth, she will end up suffering for it and I hate that idea.

[dajoga]

[ QUOTE ]
I refuse to debate my religion with you any further.

[/ QUOTE ]

As you wish, but I'm still wondering why you believe Jesus lied to you?

Apparently you've had a bad experience with some Christians and if so, I'm sorry aout that, but is that a good reason to reject God's love for you? If you sold an item to someone for $100 and they gave you 5 $20 bills and when you went to put them in the bank you found out that two of them were counterfeit, would you refuse to ever take another $20 bill from anyone?

[liberal_chick]

[ QUOTE ]
Faithful_Servant said:
(Have you ever heard of anyone willing to die before they would deny your God?)

[/ QUOTE ]

Have you never heard of the burning times? Of the hundreds of people burned at the stake for being accused of witchcraft?

Also, referring to the letter, I can show you several sites of former-Christians who are now pagans. The letter is obselete.

I have not been caught in a lie. Just because people have deluded themselves for 2000 years does not mean they are right. For centuries people thought the earth was flat. Does that mean they're right, just because they believe it to be so? I'm sure they thought they had "proof".

Also, if your religion had so much irrefutable proof, then there wouldn't BE any other religions. All people would follow Christianity.

[Timberwolf]

[ QUOTE ]
liberal_chick said:
[ QUOTE ]
Faithful_Servant said:
(Have you ever heard of anyone willing to die before they would deny your God?)

[/ QUOTE ]

Have you never heard of the burning times? Of the hundreds of people burned at the stake for being accused of witchcraft?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes. And if memory serves, every one of them denied being a witch...Not one of the disciples denied Christ as they were being put to death.

[ QUOTE ]
I have not been caught in a lie. Just because people have deluded themselves for 2000 years does not mean they are right. For centuries people thought the earth was flat. Does that mean they're right, just because they believe it to be so? I'm sure they thought they had "proof".

[/ QUOTE ]
Would YOU allow yourself to be CRUCIFIED for something you KNEW ABSOLUTELY to be a lie? Are you really trying to get us to believe that the disciples allowed themselves to be put to death because they would not renounce Christ KNOWING that he was a charlatan?

Gimme a break...your credibility is quickly evaporating...think about WHAT you are saying.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, if your religion had so much irrefutable proof, then there wouldn't BE any other religions. All people would follow Christianity.

[/ QUOTE ]
Aaaaaah...you forget the Great Deceiver walks amongst us as we "speak". Religion is the greatest weapon Satan uses against us.

He's got his hooks in you but good.

[liberal_chick]

I believe that Jesus really believed that he was what he said he was. Also, I don't ever remember reading a single verse in the Bible where Jesus said he was the actual son of God.

[Apollo5600]

[ QUOTE ]
I believe that Jesus really believed that he was what he said he was. Also, I don't ever remember reading a single verse in the Bible where Jesus said he was the actual son of God.

[/ QUOTE ]



Matthew 16
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.


John 3
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.




John 6:47
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.


John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


John 8
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.


John 4
25: The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
26: Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.




lol

---------------------

And just because...

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel

Matt 1
20: But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
21: And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
22: Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
23: Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.


Mic 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

John 20:27-28 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God


John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

[DoctorDoom]

[ QUOTE ]
They already have proved themselves to me, several times. I call upon them, and they listen, and answer.

[/ QUOTE ]
If your "prayers" are being answered, kid, it's not by any "god" that you'd want to meet.

[ QUOTE ]
I refuse to debate my religion with you any further.

[/ QUOTE ]
A wise choice. Your religion is unsupportable.

[ QUOTE ]
This is not a topic on religion, this is a topic about sexually active young girls.

[/ QUOTE ]
AKA hos.

[ QUOTE ]
If you wish to debate religion with me, then start a new thread.

[/ QUOTE ]
We don't anticipate a debate. What we'll hear is the typical cluefree ramblings of a young person with a head full of nonsense, but without the wisdom and maturity to see it for what it is.

[ QUOTE ]
Even then, I'm not sure I'd wish to participate in a debate with you, because I've done this all a thousand times before.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you have achieved nothing in "thousands" of attempts, it should have occured to you by now that it might be because you're wrong.

[ QUOTE ]
Debating religion is pointless because you can't change my mind and I can't change yours.

[/ QUOTE ]
A good many of us were as headstrong and dead wrong as you are, kid. I certainly was. My atheism was at one time almost legendary in the newspaper letters columns hereabouts. Now I'm a Pentecostal Christian, not because of debates and persuasive arguments, but because of wisdom that comes only with maturity, and the resulting openness to allowing God to prove himself.

You remind me of me. Hopefully in a couple of decades (if you have that long), you'll look back on your "religion" and wonder, "What did I ever see in THAT mumbo-jumbo crap?"

[ QUOTE ]
So unless you wish to become informed...

[/ QUOTE ]
Informed of what? We already know how foolish young people can be. We were all young once. As for being "informed" of your "religion", I use the Equine Emissions Principle: if I'm walking in a stable and I see a pile of something on the floor, I need not wallow in it to know what it is.

[ QUOTE ]
... and not to evangelize to me...

[/ QUOTE ]
It's like this, kid. You chose to register as "liberal_chick" on a BB called FreeConservatives, knowing that it is populated largely by Christians. No one invited you. As such, you're the intruder, and you must expect that we're not going to grovel at your sandal-shod feet because you're offended that we evangelize you.

I don't want you in hell, but that's where you're headed by your own choice.

[ QUOTE ]
...then I am through discussing my faith with you.

[/ QUOTE ]
It is logical to assume that the unwillingness is based on your awareness that your "faith" is piffle, and that it cannot be defended on its own merits, of which it has none.

[dajoga]

[ QUOTE ]
liberal_chick said:
I believe that Jesus really believed that he was what he said he was.

[/ QUOTE ]

But according to you, he was wrong! So you're saying he was a self-deluded guy? Yet you say he was a "good" man? If someone predicted his death and resurrection and it happens, that's clear evidence that everything else he said is true, don't you think?

[ QUOTE ]
Also, I don't ever remember reading a single verse in the Bible where Jesus said he was the actual son of God.

[/ QUOTE ]


Hmmm...that's interesting since (I believe) you said you had 16 years of exposure to Christianity. Obviously it wasn't true Christianity you were exposed to since the Deity of Christ is a cornerstone of Christian doctrine. The other possibility is that you have never read the Gospels. What were you exposed to? Jehovah's Witnesses? Mormons? Christian Science? Other......?

[DoctorDoom]

Mark 2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, <font color="red">Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.</font>
6 But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts,
7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?

John 10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, <font color="red">Many good works have I showed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?</font>
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

The Jews certainly understood His claim.

[liberal_chick]

Jesus taught us all to call the Christian God Father, did he not?

[Apollo5600]

Oh stop it

Re-read my first response to you, and Dr.Doom's post.

Or stop taking drugs.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

John 20:27-28 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God


John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

[Apollo5600]

[ QUOTE ]
Hmmm...that's interesting since (I believe) you said you had 16 years of exposure to Christianity. Obviously it wasn't true Christianity you were exposed to since the Deity of Christ is a cornerstone of Christian doctrine. The other possibility is that you have never read the Gospels. What were you exposed to? Jehovah's Witnesses? Mormons? Christian Science? Other......?

[/ QUOTE ]

Personally, I think she was just lying.

[liberal_chick]

I believed at the time that Jesus was the Son of God; I was merely stating that I never read any verse where Jesus said: I am equal to God, worship me.

[Apollo5600]

Sure sure... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bsflag.gif

[DoctorDoom]

[ QUOTE ]
I believed at the time that Jesus was the Son of God; I was merely stating that I never read any verse where Jesus said: I am equal to God, worship me.

[/ QUOTE ]
He didn't say it in so many words, but His disciples, His followers, and most certainly His enemies, knew what He was saying.


"Then comes the real shock. Among these Jews there suddenly turns up a man who goes about talking as if He was God. He claims to forgive sins. He says He has always existed. He says He is coming to judge the world as the end of time. Now let us get this clear. Among pantheists, like the Indians, anyone might say that he was a part of God, or one with God: there would be nothing very odd about it. But this man, since He was a Jew, could not mean that kind of God. God, in their language, meant the being outside the world Who had made it and was infinitely different from anything else. And when you have grasped that, you will see that what this man said was quite simply, the most shocking thing that has been uttered by human lips.

"One part of the claim tends to slip past us unnoticed because we have heard it so often that we no longer see what it amounts to. I mean the claim to forgive sins: any sins. Now unless the speaker is God, this is really so preposterous as to be comic. We can all understand how a man forgives offences against himself. You tread on my toe and I forgive you, you steal my money and I forgive you. But what should we make of a man, himself unrobbed and untrodden on, who announced that he forgave you for treading other men's toes and stealing other men's money? Asinine fatuity is the kindest description we should give of his conduct. Yet this is what Jesus did. He told people that their sins were forgiven, and never waited to consult all the other people whom their sins had undoubtedly injured. He unhesitatingly behaved as if He was the party chiefly concerned, the person chiefly offended in all offences. This makes sense only if He really was the God whose laws are broken and whose love is wounded in every sin. In the mouth of any speaker who is not God, these words would imply what I can regard as a silliness and conceit unrivaled by any other character in history.

"Yet (and this is the strange, significant thing) even His enemies, when they read the gospels, do not usually get the impression of silliness and conceit. Still less do unprejudiced readers. Christ says that He is "humble and meek" and we believe Him; not noticing that, if He were merely a man, humility and meekness are the very last characteristics we could attribute to some of His sayings.

"I am trying to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: "I am ready to accept Jesus as the great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God." That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic--on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg--or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to."

-- C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity

[Wyatt_Junker]

[ QUOTE ]
liberal_chick said:
I believed at the time that Jesus was the Son of God; I was merely stating that I never read any verse where Jesus said: I am equal to God, worship me.



[/ QUOTE ]

And the problem with humility is??? Or would you rather have a God who revels in power like a mad dictator? Nero perhaps? The Japanese Emperor? Caligula?

It actually speaks to Jesus' credit that He didn't command "WORSHIP ME!" Isn't this obvious? Its sad that you fail to see something so basic.

Conversely, Satan surely said, "I am equal to God, worship me" to Jesus while tempting Him in the desert and also lied to the early humans centuries before repeating that, they too, "would be equal to God" if they ate of the fruit of the Tree of (pompous) Knowledge. Perhaps, Jesus, was trying to return us to that level of innocence before the Fall, that requires us, all of us, to denounce self-worship, and certainly, Jesus would model that kind of character.

However, when Jesus' disciples fell at His feet and worshipped Him, He didn't stop them, did He? Or did He tell them to stop what they were doing, that it was blasphemy? What does that silence tell you? He didn't voice any concerns regarding their holy adoration and praises. Not for the ex-hooker who bathed his feet in her hair, nor the children who shouted Hosanna in the Highest. And not for any of His disciples who physically bowed down before Him. Your argument is a lame one.

Also, keep in mind, in the book of Acts, Peter had to stop the Greek crowds from worshipping him after performing miracles. He rend his robe and commanded them to stop, that he was just a man, and to regard Jesus instead.

Jesus didn't stop individuals or crowds from their voluntary worship...ever. He actually embraced their free will love offerings, as a Creator who not only enjoys fellowship but knows exactly Who He is without the pathetic need to advertise.

One thing's for sure, lib. You don't know God. You know something ill-gotten and handed down to you. Like rancid meat, there is nothing fresh there. You will need to discover these things for yourself, without the shadow of either your parent's encouragement or objections. You're too easily influenced. Learn something for the first time, just for you and just because, not because someone told you or because it was different. The 'idea of the different' in and of itself does nothing to either validate nor advance your life except helping to prop up the self-esteem. Most of the fringe, off, subset, underground religions practised by the wannabe gurus of cool, that employ the use of fog machines in their services and place coffee kart kiosks in their auditoriums and wear gothic pancake makeup and dark robes are just the latest greatest ad retarded that try to pathetically differentiate themselves from societal norms. They are just as much slaves as the couple born and raised in Kansas with a hand-me-down, yeehaw, plagiarized, christian-by-default mannequin, full of rote and twang with all the midwestern schmaltz one can fit into four walls with a steeple.

The reason you embrace pagan schtick, I assume, is in reaction to your childhood lack of free inquiry. That's a shame. Knowing 'the why' behind something is important in the educational process. Not all parents are adept teachers. That's a pity. It doesn't mean they're wrong. But what is right, is that your idea now of yourself, the manner in which you see yourself, as some kind of free thinker is illegitimate because you're running from your past straight into your future. You are not free. Your goddess bullsheiss is just part of the natural development of post-teen tikes raised in the wake of slavish parental shackles much like an ant using its feelers for the first time apart &amp; astray from its anthill and calling whatever it meets in the dirt road "new". Get over it and get over it now. It is not novel, none of the missus earth dreck. Its as old as the religion you have abandoned and are running from, with just as many traditions and rules and boring regulations. God doesn't wish either. Not your childhood traditions nor the ones you co-opted at Burning Man. He wants you. Its just that easy.

[Timberwolf]

Wuf...well said, Wyatt. Well said, indeed.

[TheRealLobo]

[ QUOTE ]
liberal_chick said:...
I do not believe that Jesus Christ was anything more than a good man...

[/ QUOTE ]

If He was such a good man, then why do you think He lied?

He did, after all, call Himself "the Son of God". So if He was "a good man", then He was telling the truth.

[Timberwolf]

Egggggzzactly!! Good call.

[jag]

[ QUOTE ]
TheRealLobo said:
So if He was "a good man", then He was telling the truth.

[/ QUOTE ]

From the liberal handbook : " I think you can be an honest person and lie about any number of things." (Dam Rather)


Missing the Mark with Religion, modern liberalism (http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Crete/4516/Farrell/mmwr/1.html)

The truth is, Modern Liberalism does not oppose moral law, rather it haughtily believes that it has a fresher, higher, smarter moral perspective than that contrived by the rough and puerile rabble, and thus the advocates of this creed feel compelled to share it, to order it, to mandate it.

With the power of the state behind them they have met with great success in decreeing their religion throughout the land. Among this creed´s leading precepts we find:

1. Unborn babies do not possess the inalienable right to life, but fungi, fruit flies and convicted murderers do.


4. Religious fundamentalists, heterosexuals, capitalists, and white males do not have the moral right to be treated equally before the law, but hedonists, gays, socialists, and minorities of every other variety do.

---------

Liberals are such practice decievers that the have bought into their own lies and believe the superiority that began by trying to fool the rest of us with.

[Trance]

[ QUOTE ]
Anonymous said:
Because you were lazy and stupid that's why, instead of getting an education and bettering yourself, you decided to spread your legs.
I am assuming no one had a gun to your head. Your choice.


"What we do in life...echoes an eternity."

[/ QUOTE ]

Amen. I see these girls who already have 3 or 4 kids.... each by different fathers and 90% of them end up on welfare or other kind of social assistance.

And with the immoral trash that comes out of Hollywood that glorifies such actions, is it any wonder we are heading down the crapper?