outsourcing, what's your opinion?

[Diabolita23]

What do you think about outsourcing? For? Against? I am for, I think that I have the right to cheap products, that’s what the <st1:country-region><st1:place>US</st1:place></st1:country-region> dominates the world for, and I might as well reap the benefits. Been thinking about this because I saw the movie “Outsourced” this weekend, cute comedy that really backs up my POV on the subject: this is the way the world works now – deal with it.

[DesertFox]

Outsourcing is the way the world has always worked when the market was allowed to follow its inclinations.

[Maggie_T]

Oh, "deal with it," eh?

Well, I must congratulate you on that extremely mature and well-thought out argument, Diabolita.

I have the right to cheap products ... I might as well reap the benefits ...

Tell me something, kid. Do you always put yourself and your own selfish interestes above everything else?

Just curious.

[ThomasMore]

"I, Pencil," by Leonard Read (http://www.fee.org/publications/the-freeman/article.asp?aid=3308):

I am a lead pencil—the ordinary wooden pencil familiar to all boys and girls and adults who can read and write.

...

I, Pencil, simple though I appear to be, merit your wonder and awe...

...

[N]ot a single person on the face of this earth knows how to make me.

...

Pick me up and look me over. What do you see? Not much meets the eye—there's some wood, lacquer, the printed labeling, graphite lead, a bit of metal, and an eraser.

...

My family tree begins with what in fact is a tree, a cedar of straight grain that grows in Northern California and Oregon. Now contemplate all the saws and trucks and rope and the countless other gear used in harvesting and carting the cedar logs to the railroad siding. Think of all the persons and the numberless skills that went into their fabrication: the mining of ore, the making of steel and its refinement into saws, axes, motors; the growing of hemp and bringing it through all the stages to heavy and strong rope; the logging camps with their beds and mess halls, the cookery and the raising of all the foods. Why, untold thousands of persons had a hand in every cup of coffee the loggers drink!

...

My “lead” itself—it contains no lead at all—is complex. The graphite is mined in Ceylon. Consider these miners and those who make their many tools and the makers of the paper sacks in which the graphite is shipped and those who make the string that ties the sacks and those who put them aboard ships and those who make the ships. Even the lighthouse keepers along the way assisted in my birth—and the harbor pilots.

The graphite is mixed with clay from Mississippi in which ammonium hydroxide is used in the refining process. Then wetting agents are added such as sulfonated tallow—animal fats chemically reacted with sulfuric acid. After passing through numerous machines, the mixture finally appears as endless extrusions—as from a sausage grinder—cut to size, dried, and baked for several hours at 1,850 degrees Fahrenheit. To increase their strength and smoothness the leads are then treated with a hot mixture which includes candelilla wax from Mexico, paraffin wax, and hydrogenated natural fats.

...

Actually, millions of human beings have had a hand in my creation, no one of whom even knows more than a very few of the others. ... There isn't a single person in all these millions, including the president of the pencil company, who contributes more than a tiny, infinitesimal bit of know-how. From the standpoint of know-how the only difference between the miner of graphite in Ceylon and the logger in Oregon is in the type of know-how. Neither the miner nor the logger can be dispensed with, any more than can the chemist at the factory or the worker in the oil field—paraffin being a by-product of petroleum.

...

Each of these millions sees that he can thus exchange his tiny know-how for the goods and services he needs or wants. I may or may not be among these items.

There is a fact still more astounding: The absence of a master mind, of anyone dictating or forcibly directing these countless actions which bring me into being. No trace of such a person can be found. Instead, we find the Invisible Hand at work. This is the mystery to which I earlier referred.

...

I, Pencil, am a complex combination of miracles: a tree, zinc, copper, graphite, and so on. But to these miracles which manifest themselves in Nature an even more extraordinary miracle has been added: the configuration of creative human energies—millions of tiny know-hows configurating naturally and spontaneously in response to human necessity and desire and in the absence of any human master-minding! Since only God can make a tree, I insist that only God could make me. Man can no more direct these millions of know-hows to bring me into being than he can put molecules together to create a tree.

...

“If you can become aware of the miraculousness which I symbolize, you can help save the freedom mankind is so unhappily losing.” For, if one is aware that these know-hows will naturally, yes, automatically, arrange themselves into creative and productive patterns in response to human necessity and demand—that is, in the absence of governmental or any other coercive master-minding—then one will possess an absolutely essential ingredient for freedom: a faith in free people. Freedom is impossible without this faith.

...

The lesson I have to teach is this: Leave all creative energies uninhibited. Merely organize society to act in harmony with this lesson. Let society's legal apparatus remove all obstacles the best it can. Permit these creative know-hows freely to flow. Have faith that free men and women will respond to the Invisible Hand. This faith will be confirmed. I, Pencil, seemingly simple though I am, offer the miracle of my creation as testimony that this is a practical faith, as practical as the sun, the rain, a cedar tree, the good earth.

[Beowulf]

I am against it. It's just one more way we pander to the rest of the world and completely forget our own country.

I think that I have the right to cheap products
Yes, you do have the right but since much of your cheap stuff is made in China, it's quite evident by your post that you've been eating the paint chips from your recalled products that you haven't turned in yet.

this is the way the world works now – deal with it.
No, I won't ''deal with it." It is the way it is because we pander to everyone else in the world for fear of "losing a friend."
China is labeled "most favored nation trading status." If we don't, you watch how quick they shake fists at us. They're no friends of ours, at least, not the government.

[DesertFox]

Thomas Sowell and Walter Williams both have written books (and articles) in which outsourcing is treated as the way the free market works when allowed to work freely.

In Sowell's recent book on applied economics, he notes that in the late 1800's the identical article made both in China and in Dallas was cheaper in Houston to get from China, because trans costs were so much cheaper via ocean and then river than overland. Sowell used specifics, but I can't remember them.

[Maggie_T]

I'm not an economist, so all I can do is offer my non-expert view.

I'd much prefer to keep American jobs in America. And I think we could actually do that if it wasn't for unions' extravagant demands. Unions are obsolete, IMHO. They get in the way of productivity, and they work mainly for the demunist party.

Call me naive, but I really think that if we got rid of unions, we'd be better able to keep jobs in this country.

And no, I'm NOT advocating for sweat shops, and/or the oppression of the ever-suffering worker. :rolleyes:

[Suzie]

Also if we got rid of welfare for people who CAN work. They can do the jobs, "nobody else wants" if they must do it to survive.

[Maggie_T]

Absolutely. Thank you, Suze. :claps:

"You don't work. You don't eat." You'd be surprised what people are willing to do when those hunger pangs get really strong.

[Suzie]

That would actually solve several "problems" .... but that's another thread. :lol:

[DesertFox]

That's called "the economic problem" of humanity, and it's the onliest spur that's ever worked as a motivator 100% of the time.

[Maggie_T]

Exactly. I always snort with derision at these new-fangled theories that the graduates from the "Appropriate Fashion for Successful Employees" academy force employers to put forth. You would not believe the stupid questions I have been asked by prospective employers. So stupid that they made me think that maybe it would not be in my best interest to work for nincompoops who wasted my time asking such irrelevant and idiotic questions.

What should the employer look for in an prospective employee? Responsibility, commitment, maturity. And he will find those in people man who really need the job. They are the ones who will work hard to excell at and keep the job because they have bills to pay, a house to keep, and children to feed and educate.

All that rot about how one dresses, where one sees oneself in 5 or 10 years (yes, I was asked that), or whether one is black, white, or striped, man, woman, or both, is all irrelevant. Give the job to the person who needs it. He/she is there for all the right reasons.

[ThomasMore]

This is third-grade economics, but is worthy to review.

The more people produce, the more wealth they create. The more people consume, the less wealth they have saved for tomorrow.

When people produce, they will try to get the best return they can for their work. When people consume, they will try to get the most or best goods for the least price.

Producers' income is defined by what people are willing to pay. Consumers' price is defined by what producers are willing to accept for their work. The price point is the point where producer and consumer agree to buy and sell.

If one producer demands $1 for a good, and another demands $4 for the same good, the consumer will try to buy from the producer who charges $1.

Governments may, or may not, interfere with trade.

If a consumer is forced to pay $4, instead of $1, then the consumer has less money remaining to buy other things or save -- the consumer is left poorer than he would otherwise be.

The more governments interfere with trade, the less trade happens and the poorer their people will become.

Producer "A" earns $100 a month by selling 25 units at $4. Competing Producer "B" enters the picture, offering to sell at $1. One of two things will happen: Producer "A"'s income will drop to $25 if he continues to sell 25 units at the new price of $1, or Producer "A" can maintain his income of $100 if he can increase his productivity to 100 units.

Consumers who once used $4 to buy the product, now pay $1, and have the remaining $3 to save or spend on other things.

If nation "X"'s government intervenes and prevents consumers from purchasing from Producer "B," or taxes the difference, the price returns to $4 -- this protects Producer "A"'s income.

Nation "X"'s consumers will pay the higher price, and find themselves poorer. Producer "B" will sell his products in other nations -- the world price of the product will be $1, but the price in Nation "X" is $4.

Producer "A" cannot meet the world market price and therefore cannot sell his product outside Nation "X." Consumers in Nation "X" are impoverished, and the protected producers in Nation "X" are not competitive outside its borders.

[Gonzo67]

My opinion...

When a company I do business with in AMERICA, sells me a product, and I have a question about that product, and I call the 1-800 number to get answers, and find my self dealing with some Hindu son of a bitch who insists on mispronouncing my name, speaking in a broken form of English I can neither understand nor tolerate....

I consider that an insult.

And for my future purchases of said product, you can bet your last AMERICAN dollar the previous company I had dealt with will be told to shove it up their ass, and I'll be dealing with one of their competitors.

That answer your question? :)

[Maggie_T]

LOL. Excellent, Gonz. :thumb:

[Naturalized-Texan]

Fortunately, more jobs are being insourced into the U.S. by foreign companies than are being outsourced by American companies - e.g., foreign auto makers like Toyota, Honda, Suburu, Mercedes, BMW, Mazda, Hyundai, Mitsubishi, are all manufacturing vehicles in the U.S.

[ThomasMore]

I'd much prefer to keep American jobs in America.

I want every American to be as wealthy as possible.

To do that, we have to work smarter and be more productive than everyone else. It requires an educated, smart, motivated, and flexible workforce with a minimum of government intervention.

For the most part, we still have that. I worry a great deal about our future, because of the entitlement-mentality, laziness and lack of education that is spreading through our society.

Americans are running about a 5% unemployment rate, which is effectively full employment -- people who want to work can, for the most part, find work. That means that American workers are keeping pretty busy producing.

Americans export some goods, and import others. If we buy millions of coffee mugs from China, but sell China Caterpillar earthmovers and Honeywell pumps, the American workers are producing the higher-valued goods, and drawing the income from it. As it stands, I would rather have an American salary than a Chinese one -- which says a lot about who is being more productive.

I would rather have American workers producing those things that bring the best return to America.

[Maggie_T]

I want every American to be as wealthy as possible.

To do that, we have to work smarter and be more productive than everyone else.

Exactly. So, get rid of unions.

[ThomasMore]

Exactly. So, get rid of unions.

Unions are interested in two things: ostensibly, improving the lot of their members -- more directly, increasing their own power.

What they are NOT interested in is increasing companies' productivity or making American businesses more flexible.

While unions might arguably benefit their members, they are are parasites to businesses. More than once, they have crippled or killed their hosts.

[Maggie_T]

Glad we agree. I hate unions. Teachers' union comes to mind. UGH!! Talk about not interested in improving productivity.

Bastards.

[DoctorDoom]

The question is what drives the private sector companies to outsource. Unions have been cited, and they are a large factor. Paying a person $25-plus/hour to do simple assembly jobs is economically unjustifiable. But what really started the move overseas? A: government - big, oppressive, intrusive, unaccountable government.

Try to start a small business that will employ a few dozen people and see how many federal, state and local hoops you have to jump through, how many hundreds of pages of forms must be filled out, how many thousands of regulations you must abide by, how many bullshit "environmental" restrictions you must tolerate, how many different taxes you must pay, and on and on.

Uncontrollable, liberal-dominated, anti-big-business government is driving companies out of America, and I don't fault them at all for it.

Next point: try finding capable employees amongst the "graduates" of pubblik skewls, whose sole talent is putting a rubber on a cucumber and who can't read their f**king diplomas. Here's a good indication of why companies can't find competent help in the US.

"A high school diploma is not a guarantee that someone can read, write or use basic math skills to an employer's satisfaction. High school is just an interim level of education."
-- Asst. Superintendent Alfredo Stokes, Dougherty County School System, Albany, GA - Atlanta Journal-Constitution, 2/3/95

Ask yourself how successful you're going to be with staffing your business when you can't go to high school "graduates" and find "someone (who) can read, write or use basic math skills to an employer's satisfaction", when the school administrators have that outrageous mindset.

Beyond that, look at the "It's all about ME!" mentality that our selfish society has created. There's no work ethic any more. The only interest that many if not most prospective employees have is, "What's in it for ME?" Gone is, "Here's what I can do and why I think you'll benefit from hiring me." The new "work ethic" is, "The company owes me a living wage for sweeping the floors." Screw what the company needs to survive and compete in the marketplace.

Another reality is that as the 21st century unfolds, the US is rapidly becoming a high-tech, computer-intensive society focused on service-related businesses as the factors cited above close or force out major manufacturers. However, its colleges and universities are churning out party-hearty parasites who get through school on minimum-challenge "liberal arts" courses and who spend more time protesting than in the classrooms, and then wonder why no company finds their "skills" useful. There are very few jobs in business and industry for majors in Queer Lit, Philosophy or World Peace Activism, whose computer skills end at clicking a mouse.

"What do you think about outsourcing?" One thing is absolutely certain: were I a major business owner, I'd outsource to survive.

[Maggie_T]

Next point: try finding capable employees amongst the "graduates" of pubblik skewls, whose sole talent is putting a rubber on a cucumber and who can't read their f**king diplomas. Here's a good indication of why companies can't find competent help in the US.



Ahem, ahem ... teachers' unions, anyone?

Thanks for making my case, Doc. :evilgrin:

[DoctorDoom]

I spent 38 years in industry, in both union and management jobs. I've seen the bullshit firsthand.

Example #1 of government micromanagement: the company excavated a hole to replace an underground valve. Because of the presence of PCBs in the dirt, it took a full year for the state to allow the company to put the dirt back in the hole.

Example #2: an OSHA inspection resulted in a fine of several thousand dollars because a "knockout" (the round removable tabs in the image) in an electrical box was removed and not sealed.

http://www.hubbellcatalog.com/raco/images/Raco/Boxes/0185.jpg

Where was the box in question that it posed such a safety hazard? A: it was on a wall near the ceiling, fifty feet off the floor. To endanger oneself with it would require climbing a ladder, walking 20 feet on a crane rail, shoving one's arm between live 480-volt crane busbars, and putting a finger in the hole where the 24-volt alarm wires MIGHT give a tingle if the wirenuts fell off the connections.

OSHA has some merits, but it is notorious for its egregious, unchecked excesses. Try to run a business with those assholes on the prowl.

[Wyatt_Junker]

As long as the U.S. keeps sticking a gun to an employer's head and forcing them to adhere to their rules, then I pray that employers continue to outsource. Fuk the rules and the regs of this pretend republic for which it stands, one nation under dog.

As long as I am forced at gunpoint to pay inflated wages to my workers as opposed to ones based on natural market forces, then I hope this economy implodes as jobs go bye bye.

As long as I have to pay worker's comp by the force of the state which institutionalizes fraud, then I will throw off these chains if possible and hire workers in other, more grateful nations.

As long as I have to pay unemployment insurance into the American working pansy, their account coerced by the state, then I would hope that my freedom to hire employees in Mexico or India or China remains an open, viable opportunity where workers aren't as soft as they are here with every guarantee of no harm and comfort under the sun given to them by birthright.

As long as I have agency after agency breathing down my neck from local labor boards, the EEOC, OSHA, the Industry of Weights and Measures, the Industry of Mercantilism and Wage and Hour Law Enforcement, the freewheeling torts in the private sector guaranteeing them money they have not earned whether it be by retaliation, whistle blower laws(new), discrimination, harassment, ADA or whatever they can invent next, then I would HOPE that I could at least ditch this country's incessant, obtrusive manners and look elsewhere to manufacture a widget.

As long as there are unions, organizers, muckrackers and grifters imposing their adversarial doctrines upon the worker class, setting them up against 'the man', then I would hope I could fire every one of them and look elsewhere for a little more God given gratitude and if that means another country, fine.

America doesn't remember her roots. Since 1960 forward, generations arising from then on have taken the biggest spoils this country has ever known through inheritance and achieved less and less. In fact, in these next 20 years, this will be the largest estate transfer in the history of this lethargic country as earnings are left to ingrates who will burn it on kitchen remodels, new pools or Harely's. Fine. Let them. It will help the economy. However, the true wealth, the creation of new wealth has sputtered save the technology sector. Even though manufacturing has increased, it hasn't done so as a percentage of the total when compared to the early century.

January I was forced to raise min. wage .50. This January it will be another .50 in addition to that. A dollar wage raise in a year's time. I have no choice in the matter, either I do it or I am shut down. That's the reality folks. Gun. To. Head.

And two years ago Bush 2 prolonged UI durations which extended the timeline for people who could collect on money when out of work. My premiums with the EDD quadrupled overnight.

I talk to roofers who pay $1.12 for every payroll dollar just in worker's comp. insurance alone. Insane. Again, at the point of a gun. You want to start your own roofing company? Good luck. You will pay more in insurance than you do in payroll.

What happened to this country? What happened to risk? Now we are taking risk out of everything through guarantees, one after the other. Pretty soon there will be no more risk, just entitlements. And every time, EVERY TIME, the employer is looked to as THE ONE to shoulder the burden.

I hope third world economies continue to exist merely to shun the labor pool here which acts like a collective diva with all their demands piled high with politicians kissing their boo boos.

Who would you be more willing to hire? Someone in China with zero payroll tax, zero SDI, FICA, state, medicare, UI etc. and no worker's comp and a guarantee that they won't sue you on a bad hair day? Or, someone here with all that baggage?

The problem isn't outsourcing. Its America. She's slipping away slowly. The more left we travel, the sicker she becomes. And the people just blindly vote for dorks promising them more stuff. The fault isn't even with democrats. Its the idiots who vote for them..

At least there are pockets left in the world where gratitude still exists.

[CzechPrince]

Outsourcing is the way the world has always worked when the market was allowed to follow its inclinations.

Exactly.

Outsourcing is part of the global market. Countries outsource to us as well. Usually in our case, most jobs that move offshore are low end jobs that make way for higher paying ones, which betters us, and poorer nations who need the jobs we are phasing out.

[Elgalad]

Outsource the Unions to the developing countries where all the manufacturing jobs are going.

This only makes sense because

A) The workers there NEED better working conditions and wages and unless they unionize, they won't get them.
B) Unions are no longer needed in a nation with an economy like ours that is increasingly shifting away from basic manufacturing and raw resource gathering and towards information technology and services.

I realize this is a simplistic suggestion, and it's doubtful that the Unions here (in the U.S.) would every seriously consider the possibility. They aren't here for the workers anymore, but rather their own self-perpetuation via politics and worker taxation via dues.

Even so, if anyone in Congress ever had the courage to bring up this suggestion, it could start some very interesting debate.


-Elgalad

[Beowulf]

Unions are interested in two things: ostensibly, improving the lot of their members -- more directly, increasing their own power.

What they are NOT interested in is increasing companies' productivity or making American businesses more flexible.

While unions might arguably benefit their members, they are are parasites to businesses. More than once, they have crippled or killed their hosts.

Summed up rather nicely, Thomas. Kinda like that incident I had with United a couple weeks back. I was the one who got caught right in the middle of the pilot's Union rules and because the pilot's union was in contract talks with the company, he opted to make a big deal out of nothing, inconveniencing me, the ground crew and 80 passengers. They only care about themselves and no one else.

[Plain Old Dave]

Dead set again' outsourcing for good and 20 days. Keep your money at home and jobs in America. Given a choice, I'll even buy things made right here in the sovreign State of Tennessee over things made by foreigners.

[Naturalized-Texan]

Dead set again' outsourcing for good and 20 days. Keep your money at home and jobs in America. Given a choice, I'll even buy things made right here in the sovreign State of Tennessee over things made by foreigners.
I see that we have a Luddite among us who wants our economy to return to the 19th Century of low-tech manual labor.

[Naturalized-Texan]

Fortunately, more jobs are being insourced into the U.S. by foreign companies than are being outsourced by American companies - e.g., foreign auto makers like Toyota, Honda, Suburu, Mercedes, BMW, Mazda, Hyundai, Mitsubishi, are all manufacturing vehicles in the U.S.
Additional points:

The insourced jobs mentioned above are also higher-paying jobs than the jobs being outsourced.

Those foreign auto makers manufacture nearly as many autos in the U.S. as the Big 3 - GM, Ford, Chrysler - does. In 2005: Foreign auto makers: 2 million, Big 3: 2.2 million (2005 numbers from the 2007 World Almanac).

American companies outsource low-skill, low-paying, menial jobs. Then with the capital they save, those companies are able to hire higher-skilled, higher-paid American employees.

[Wolfcounsel]

Changing the topic a little, does anyone know where I can buy pencils that won't have half the point shaved off and the other half covered with wood when I sharpen them? The dumbasses who make pencils cannot get the two halves of the wood cut evenly to save their skins!

[Lazarus]

Laz's Economics 101...

Outsourcing is the result of free forces of economics in action... When a company finds it too onerous to do business at home due to all the various reasons - Union greed and lust for power, oppressive government regulation, artificially high wages for jobs that don't justify them - then that business outsources to a more friendly environment in order to compete - in order to survive...

First, last, and always, we must remember that a business is an investment risk made on the part of the investors - Its primary purpose is to make profitable returns for those investors... Its existance is not a social welfare organization whose purpose is providing employment for people regardless of economic conditions...

As much as we would all love to be buying All-American products, employing all American workers, the dirty little secret that isn't openly discussed is the incredible greed and power lust that infests organized labor and bureaucrat alike...

Unions are not concerned with the welfare of their rank and file - That is a dreamy myth... I truth, unions are nothing more than gangs organized to terrorize businesses into giving up big chunks of profits and and power in return for a promise of non-violence... Their activities are nothing less than a protection racket...

Oh, We hear all the platitudes about how labor was once abused by corrupt management and unions are just the common man protecting himself... But try living and working in a heavy unionized environment and you will quickly come to the realization that you are living in what is in effect a neighborhood controlled by a local gang of strongarms with the ever-present threat of violence in your face if you don't march in lock step...

Unions deny the individual's desire to achieve excellence and thus rising above the crowds - excellence above the mob is severely discouraged in the Union world... Everyone is reduced to the productivity of the laziest bum which is enforced with the threat of violence... In reality, unions are just localized Communist cells...

The American auto industry (And Im talkin about the "Big Three" not the insourced companies that Tex cited above) is in a critical state today because the average annual income of a rank and file auto worker with a high school education is around $100k per year... Now you understand why GM's bonds were downgraded to junk status...

As for bureaucrats, their own lust for power over the population, ignorance of the needs of business, and envy and hatred of anyone who is capable aquiring wealth above the average man adds its own level of terror to what the business manager has to deal with... Minimum wages are leftist feel good programs intended to pander to the unmotivated and punish investors who have created successful businesses...

The real world effect of minimum wages are not to raise the incomes of workers at the lowest levels - instead they price the cost of labor above the value of basic unskilled jobs... An employer who employs 5 workers to do a manual, unskilled job at $5 per hour, is suddenly forced by law to pay $7 per hour for workers who work a $5 job... So he is forced by market contraints to let go of 2 workers in order to maintain his payroll levels... The ultimate result is that 2 people are now unemployed entirely and 3 have had their workload and job stress increased - What an improvement...

Of course the Socialist says that the employer is the greedy one and should eat the additional cost of the payroll at his own expense and keep all 5 workers on board... But as always, the pin-head socialist ignores the realities of economics and the market forces that the businessman has to consider in order to compete and stay in business... The socialist lives in a fantasy world...

Also the law of diminishing returns kicks in, which says there is a limit to how much of a pain-in-the-ass the businessman is willing to put up with in order to achieve his own profit levels - Reduce his profits enough and the businessman throws in the towel and closes his shop because the motivation to take the risk has been removed - And everyone is unemployed...

Add to that constraints from EPA, OSHA, EEOC, IRS, and stacks of menaingless licenses and inspections piled on him at the local level - all with their own FEES attached to them...

Any wonder why we have outsourcing? It is the natural response of businessmen trying to compete and survive...

If outsourcing were made illegal and all US businesses were forced to hire nothing but American labor, with no associated relief from Unions and bureaucratic intrusion, this country would enjoy MASSIVE unemployment and prices of goods and services would soar out of reach...

You cannot mess with the laws of Economics without reaping severe results... All pricing is driven by Supply and Demand... When Supply (here it is labor supply) is artificially limited, then the price of the end product goes up...

In a market where labor supply is constrained to a single pool, where those workers are the only game in town, the dark side human nature rules, and we get precisely what we see happeneing to the Auto industry - uneducated assembly line workers DEMANDING $100k per year and products that are not only priced beyond the reach of the consumer, but a severe loss in quality control...

And then Demand responds accordingly by refusing to participate - and the industry collapses under its own dead weight...

As unhappy as we find ourselves with Outsourcing, in truth it is just a symptom - a reaction - of a deeper more sinister problem... Unions and government constraints are choking American businesses to death...

Outsourcing is just a drowning business gasping for air...

[Plain Old Dave]

I have always wondered just where companies that outsource expect their customers to get the money to buy their products... Outsource an employee, he will then be UNEMPLOYED and have no money. If outsourcing were made illegal (along with withdrawing from NAFTA and GATT), the Big 2 1/2 would actually be in good shape, unemployment would be in the fractions of a percent and the US would be well on our way to being a PRODUCING nation, and not a consuming nation.

[Naturalized-Texan]

I have always wondered just where companies that outsource expect their customers to get the money to buy their products... Outsource an employee, he will then be UNEMPLOYED and have no money. If outsourcing were made illegal (along with withdrawing from NAFTA and GATT), the Big 2 1/2 would actually be in good shape, unemployment would be in the fractions of a percent and the US would be well on our way to being a PRODUCING nation, and not a consuming nation.
I see that you have been victimized by labor union Big Lie Propaganda. Don't you realize that the labor unions have learned their lessons well at the feet of their fellow leftist, Josef Goebbels, Hitler's Minister of Propaganda?

If employees became unemployed as a result of outsourcing, we would not be enjoying the full employment and the rising real wages that the U.S. economy is currently experiencing.

[Naturalized-Texan]

The American auto industry (And Im talkin about the "Big Three" not the insourced companies that Tex cited above) is in a critical state today because the average annual income of a rank and file auto worker with a high school education is around $100k per year... Now you understand why GM's bonds were downgraded to junk status...
You provided an excellent brief lesson in basic economics. :claps:

It's important to note that those insourced auto plants are non-union. Consequently, labor union Big Lie Propagandists are frantically trying to hide the fact that partially as a result of that insourcing, more jobs are being insourced into the U.S. than are being outsourced.

[Maggie_T]

Before we left Maine, the last stunt by the socialist governor, who was in bed with union thugs, was to approve a law by which those employees who refused to belong to these racketeering gangs still had to pay what was euphemistically called "fair dues." As you can imagine, this was just another way to extort money from those who clearly and plainly stated they wanted NOTHING to do with unions.

The conservative talk show was innundated by furious calls from employees who became victims of this extortion. They were all understandably outraged and said that they considered unions to be obsolete (thank you, guys!) and that they thought themselves perfectly capable of negociating with their boss, without a union thug's interference. They also mentioned that all this extortion was about was raking in more money that would go to the demunist coffers (surprise, surprise!), because how the hell would it benefit those who DID NOT belong to unions. Do you grasp the dichotomy here?

Union thugs were of course shocked, shocked I tell you ... but they never denied that last charge. They produced the usual sob stories about the "poor oppressed worker" whom they were there to look out for, :rolleyes: but when confronted with the question about contributing to the demunist party, they hemmed and hawed and went into irrelevant tangents.

Unions? Outlaw the extortion gangs, I say!

[ThomasMore]

I have always wondered just where companies that outsource expect their customers to get the money to buy their products... Outsource an employee, he will then be UNEMPLOYED and have no money.

An excellent point, P.O. Dave. A job that goes offshore IS lost. But educated, hard-working employees can usually find other work.

There is usually a cost to losing a job and finding another, but this is a trait of a free market for labor, goods and services -- even where foreign trade is not at issue, businesses go kaput all the time.

If employees became unemployed as a result of outsourcing, we would not be enjoying the full employment and the rising real wages that the U.S. economy is currently experiencing.

Additional points:

The insourced jobs mentioned above are also higher-paying jobs than the jobs being outsourced.

Those foreign auto makers manufacture nearly as many autos in the U.S. as the Big 3 - GM, Ford, Chrysler - does. In 2005: Foreign auto makers: 2 million, Big 3: 2.2 million (2005 numbers from the 2007 World Almanac).

American companies outsource low-skill, low-paying, menial jobs. Then with the capital they save, those companies are able to hire higher-skilled, higher-paid American employees.


If outsourcing were made illegal (along with withdrawing from NAFTA and GATT), the Big 2 1/2 would actually be in good shape, unemployment would be in the fractions of a percent and the US would be well on our way to being a PRODUCING nation, and not a consuming nation.

Two points:

First, people are buying foreign cars because they believe they are getting better value from the foreign manufacturers. Whether they perceive inferior quality, design, support or features from the American products (and for many years American auto quality was far worse than foreign manufacturers), many American buyers did not, and do not, want to waste their money on the American product if a foreign product better fits their needs.

American auto manufacturers have vastly improved their quality and value, specifically because they had to respond to the loss of business caused by the foreign competition.

Only by prohibiting people from buying the preferred foreign products can the US "insure" a customer base. But then that says nothing about the quality and value of the American product, or its saleability outside the US.

Second, if it is true that we are a "net consuming" nation, it is simply because Americans are spending more than we are producing. Stop spending as much and start saving more, and keep producing. Personal spending, "living above our means" is a nationwide social problem in the US.

...unemployment would be in the fractions of a percent...

The structural rate of unemployment is 4.5 to 5.5%. When people leave jobs (whether the employee quits or moves, is fired, downsized or the company goes out of business), it takes a little while to find a new job. Some people walk into one within a month. Others will take several months. Nationwide and looking across job skills and industries, the average is about 1 in 20 have left a job and are shopping for a new one.

The ideal rate of unemployment is about 5% -- that means everything is running smoothly and everyone who wants a job, can find one. It is hard to go lower than that number without putting guns to peoples' heads and saying "you shall not quit!"

By contrast, the European nations are running about 10-15% unemployment right now. During the Great Depression, the US had over 25% unemployment.

[Naturalized-Texan]

Since our economy is at full employment, where would we get the additional workers to produce the products in the U.S. that the American people demand today and to satisfy the continually increasing demand of an expanding American economy? Import more Mexican workers? Think about it.

[ThomasMore]

:yeahthat:

[ThomasMore]

Mags mentioned the damage unions often do to American competitiveness, and that is definitely a factor in making it more difficult for American industries to compete worldwide. Doc and Wyatt touched on some other factors:

Oppressive regulations and taxes:

The question is what drives the private sector companies to outsource. Unions have been cited, and they are a large factor. Paying a person $25-plus/hour to do simple assembly jobs is economically unjustifiable. But what really started the move overseas? A: government - big, oppressive, intrusive, unaccountable government.

Try to start a small business that will employ a few dozen people and see how many federal, state and local hoops you have to jump through, how many hundreds of pages of forms must be filled out, how many thousands of regulations you must abide by, how many bullshit "environmental" restrictions you must tolerate, how many different taxes you must pay, and on and on.

Uncontrollable, liberal-dominated, anti-big-business government is driving companies out of America, and I don't fault them at all for it.

I spent 38 years in industry, in both union and management jobs. I've seen the bullshit firsthand.

Example #1 of government micromanagement: the company excavated a hole to replace an underground valve. Because of the presence of PCBs in the dirt, it took a full year for the state to allow the company to put the dirt back in the hole.

Example #2: an OSHA inspection resulted in a fine of several thousand dollars because a "knockout" (the round removable tabs in the image) in an electrical box was removed and not sealed.

http://www.hubbellcatalog.com/raco/images/Raco/Boxes/0185.jpg

Where was the box in question that it posed such a safety hazard? A: it was on a wall near the ceiling, fifty feet off the floor. To endanger oneself with it would require climbing a ladder, walking 20 feet on a crane rail, shoving one's arm between live 480-volt crane busbars, and putting a finger in the hole where the 24-volt alarm wires MIGHT give a tingle if the wirenuts fell off the connections.

OSHA has some merits, but it is notorious for its egregious, unchecked excesses. Try to run a business with those assholes on the prowl.

As long as the U.S. keeps sticking a gun to an employer's head and forcing them to adhere to their rules, then I pray that employers continue to outsource. Fuk the rules and the regs of this pretend republic for which it stands, one nation under dog.

As long as I am forced at gunpoint to pay inflated wages to my workers as opposed to ones based on natural market forces, then I hope this economy implodes as jobs go bye bye.

As long as I have to pay worker's comp by the force of the state which institutionalizes fraud, then I will throw off these chains if possible and hire workers in other, more grateful nations.

As long as I have to pay unemployment insurance into the American working pansy, their account coerced by the state, then I would hope that my freedom to hire employees in Mexico or India or China remains an open, viable opportunity where workers aren't as soft as they are here with every guarantee of no harm and comfort under the sun given to them by birthright.

As long as I have agency after agency breathing down my neck from local labor boards, the EEOC, OSHA, the Industry of Weights and Measures, the Industry of Mercantilism and Wage and Hour Law Enforcement, the freewheeling torts in the private sector guaranteeing them money they have not earned whether it be by retaliation, whistle blower laws(new), discrimination, harassment, ADA or whatever they can invent next, then I would HOPE that I could at least ditch this country's incessant, obtrusive manners and look elsewhere to manufacture a widget.

As long as there are unions, organizers, muckrackers and grifters imposing their adversarial doctrines upon the worker class, setting them up against 'the man', then I would hope I could fire every one of them and look elsewhere for a little more God given gratitude and if that means another country, fine.

America doesn't remember her roots. Since 1960 forward, generations arising from then on have taken the biggest spoils this country has ever known through inheritance and achieved less and less. In fact, in these next 20 years, this will be the largest estate transfer in the history of this lethargic country as earnings are left to ingrates who will burn it on kitchen remodels, new pools or Harely's. Fine. Let them. It will help the economy. However, the true wealth, the creation of new wealth has sputtered save the technology sector. Even though manufacturing has increased, it hasn't done so as a percentage of the total when compared to the early century.

January I was forced to raise min. wage .50. This January it will be another .50 in addition to that. A dollar wage raise in a year's time. I have no choice in the matter, either I do it or I am shut down. That's the reality folks. Gun. To. Head.

And two years ago Bush 2 prolonged UI durations which extended the timeline for people who could collect on money when out of work. My premiums with the EDD quadrupled overnight.

I talk to roofers who pay $1.12 for every payroll dollar just in worker's comp. insurance alone. Insane. Again, at the point of a gun. You want to start your own roofing company? Good luck. You will pay more in insurance than you do in payroll.

What happened to this country? What happened to risk? Now we are taking risk out of everything through guarantees, one after the other. Pretty soon there will be no more risk, just entitlements. And every time, EVERY TIME, the employer is looked to as THE ONE to shoulder the burden.

I hope third world economies continue to exist merely to shun the labor pool here which acts like a collective diva with all their demands piled high with politicians kissing their boo boos.

Who would you be more willing to hire? Someone in China with zero payroll tax, zero SDI, FICA, state, medicare, UI etc. and no worker's comp and a guarantee that they won't sue you on a bad hair day? Or, someone here with all that baggage?

The problem isn't outsourcing. Its America. She's slipping away slowly. The more left we travel, the sicker she becomes. And the people just blindly vote for dorks promising them more stuff. The fault isn't even with democrats. Its the idiots who vote for them..

At least there are pockets left in the world where gratitude still exists.

Lazy, uneducated employees with an entitlement mentality:

Next point: try finding capable employees amongst the "graduates" of pubblik skewls, whose sole talent is putting a rubber on a cucumber and who can't read their f**king diplomas. Here's a good indication of why companies can't find competent help in the US.

"A high school diploma is not a guarantee that someone can read, write or use basic math skills to an employer's satisfaction. High school is just an interim level of education."
-- Asst. Superintendent Alfredo Stokes, Dougherty County School System, Albany, GA - Atlanta Journal-Constitution, 2/3/95

Ask yourself how successful you're going to be with staffing your business when you can't go to high school "graduates" and find "someone (who) can read, write or use basic math skills to an employer's satisfaction", when the school administrators have that outrageous mindset.

Beyond that, look at the "It's all about ME!" mentality that our selfish society has created. There's no work ethic any more. The only interest that many if not most prospective employees have is, "What's in it for ME?" Gone is, "Here's what I can do and why I think you'll benefit from hiring me." The new "work ethic" is, "The company owes me a living wage for sweeping the floors." Screw what the company needs to survive and compete in the marketplace.

Another reality is that as the 21st century unfolds, the US is rapidly becoming a high-tech, computer-intensive society focused on service-related businesses as the factors cited above close or force out major manufacturers. However, its colleges and universities are churning out party-hearty parasites who get through school on minimum-challenge "liberal arts" courses and who spend more time protesting than in the classrooms, and then wonder why no company finds their "skills" useful. There are very few jobs in business and industry for majors in Queer Lit, Philosophy or World Peace Activism, whose computer skills end at clicking a mouse.

"What do you think about outsourcing?" One thing is absolutely certain: were I a major business owner, I'd outsource to survive.

To this, you can add products liability and workers' compensation lawsuits, and employer-based insurance for employees.

---

If the US is going to continue to be competitive, EACH citizen must understand that people won't buy their goods and services unless they are better than the competition's.

To do that, the employees have to be educated, smart, flexible and hard-working.

Government cannot add excessive and unreasonable taxes and regulations. The employees should expect a day's pay for a day's work -- and take care of their own insurance and retirement. If your labor is worth it, you will earn enough to pay for these.

Employers ARE NOT in the business of "creating jobs," they are in the business of making money. To do their jobs, they need to find people willing to do the work.

If you aren't willing to understand your job and work hard at it, don't expect to be employed.

[TeenageRepublican]

– deal with it.

I'm going to call this guy an old newbie since he registered nearly two years ago and has only done 14 posts. I don't know why he doesn't post more, but that's beside the point

It's funny how you Diabolita23 think that we're complete morons that will accept anything anyone says. We're not. There- deal with that! :finger:

[Maggie_T]

Teen, before you waste good time dealing with this ... person, I suggest you take a look at his/her other "profound" posts (http://www.freeconservatives.com/vb/search.php?searchid=158343). Especially, the one under "Alien Invastion."

Yes, I knew you'd also consider it a waste of time.

[Beowulf]

Yes, TR, this guy is just another "hit and run" poster. I see he hasn't been back to defend himself. Oh yeah, I forgot, Liberals can't defend themselves!

[Seabee]

Outsourcing is the way the world has always worked when the market was allowed to follow its inclinations.

This is the truest economic statement I have heard in a long time. We have always had, for the most part, an open Free Market abroad. The difference now is that with NAFTA, GATT, CAFTA, etc. the international markets are trying to level the playing field with egregious penalties against more powerful markets that tend to dominate the smaller, in a nut shell. Socialisim in a package of free market promises.

[The_Elucidator]

The only thing, and I mean only thing, that we should outsource is our democrats. There are a bunch of villages out there in dire need of idiots. I'm even willing to absorb a trade deficit on them.

[Maggie_T]

Bless you, darling. :urtheman:

LUC FOR PRESIDENT!!

[Gonzo67]

Come on Luc... Half measures? I'm amazed you'd give up so easily...

Just think, with all the ten's of dollars we'd receive for our democrats... why stop there? I'm sure we could get an additional $1.75 if we throw in the rest of the liberals.

Bump it up another .85 cents if we toss the eco-assholes onto the bargaining table. Though, we'd probably have to give them PETA for free... hell, NO ONE wants those assholes.

[Diabolita23]

Yes, you do have the right but since much of your cheap stuff is made in China, it's quite evident by your post that you've been eating the paint chips from your recalled products that you haven't turned in yet.


Heh, sometimes when I open some product, say a computer (what, your computers are made in the USA? How much did you pay?), from China - I smell the smell of chemical softeners I know have been outlawed in the US for decades. I agree - tis no good. Most of my knowledge about outsourcing comes from the movie. And I am a hypocrite for supporting the local food movement, too. Alas - I can't afford to put my money where my mouth is in all areas of my life, and I recognize that.

[gnome]

A couple of thoughts...

If it was agreed to "get rid of the unions" how would it be done? Specifically. Let's say you had a legislative blank check.

Next point... when capital is free to move internationally, but labor is not, is that truly a free market? In an ideal market, Mexican workers for example might not accept significantly lower wages, because they would move to where wages are higher.

I am not advocating unrestricted immigration--just pointing out that you are already working with a distorted market.

[Neil Peart]

Outsourcing occurs because welfare takes away the people who would normally be most willing to work the most menial jobs.

[ThomasMore]

If it was agreed to "get rid of the unions" how would it be done? Specifically. Let's say you had a legislative blank check.

Cain't, and shouldn't. But I would put an end to statutes which give preferences for unions (e.g., "agency shop" travesties, etc.), and for unions of government employees.

Next point... when capital is free to move internationally, but labor is not, is that truly a free market? In an ideal market, Mexican workers for example might not accept significantly lower wages, because they would move to where wages are higher.

I think most of us have no problem with LEGAL immigration and workers' permit programs -- just as American expats work the world over, workers from other countries may work here...

...if they will follow the )@~^ law. Border control is a national security issue, a public health issue, and a defense issue. It should not be a welfare issue, but it has become one, too.

I am not advocating unrestricted immigration--just pointing out that you are already working with a distorted market.

The less government intervenes in trade matters, the more people's willingness to trade with one another levels out the market. People's subjective wishes or expectations of what they "ought" to earn doesn't hold water when the market simply won't bear it, any more than a subjective expectation of what people "ought" to pay stands, if the costs and supplies don't support them.

[ThomasMore]

Heh, sometimes when I open some product, say a computer (what, your computers are made in the USA? How much did you pay?), from China - I smell the smell of chemical softeners I know have been outlawed in the US for decades.

If the substance is illegal in the US, then lawsuits or prosecutions should address the problem -- perhaps not instantly, but soon enough.

The fact that China has been losing a lot of face over violations, and several prominent Chinese have recently been executed or "committed suicide," speaks volumes that even China takes these things seriously.

[Maggie_T]

Heh, sometimes when I open some product, say a computer (what, your computers are made in the USA? How much did you pay?), from China - I smell the smell of chemical softeners I know have been outlawed in the US for decades. I agree - tis no good. Most of my knowledge about outsourcing comes from the movie.

That is the most alarming confession I have ever heard. :eek:

Alas - I can't afford to put my money where my mouth is ...

Well, that does not justify your stuffing it with your foot.

Diabolita, if you are going to continue to refer to Hollywood as the source of your opinions (such as they are), I suggest you post them in the Film, Music & Literature forum (you'll find it under The Study).

Or better still. Post them in the Comedy Central forum. It's listed under The Ligher Side.



(Sheesh)

[gnome]

Cain't, and shouldn't. But I would put an end to statutes which give preferences for unions (e.g., "agency shop" travesties, etc.), and for unions of government employees.

That might be a good idea. I've never understood why union membership would be mandatory in some sectors. As far as I'm concerned people should be able to choose to negotiate their own contract if they want... or heck, even join or make a competing union. I think it works better if it's voluntary... because then the union needs to give employers a reason to pick them over a non-union worker, or pay them more. They would have to develop a reputation for extra talent or productivity.

The only reason I have never fully committed to this point of view is because I've never heard a detailed rebuttal. maybe there isn't a good rebuttal, but there's a part of me that feels like I've only considered one side of a story.

[Naturalized-Texan]

One should be allowed to join a union if one wants to. One should be allowed to NOT join a union if one doesn't want to. Joining a union should be strictly voluntary. No union shops; no closed shops; no agency shops.

If one joins a union, one must have the right to refuse to allow one's dues to be used for political purposes.

[Beowulf]

Heh, sometimes when I open some product, say a computer (what, your computers are made in the USA? How much did you pay?), from China -

Actually, I built mine. My motherboard was built in Taiwan, NOT China. My video card was built here in the U.S as was the case. BTW, the machine cost $400 to build.

[Seabee]

If one joins a union, one must have the right to refuse to allow one's dues to be used for political purposes.


Unions should be like churhces, they should be given a tax free status and not allowed to be involved in politics, period. Or they should be completely removed, trying to reform them would be damn near impossible with all the corruption.

[Naturalized-Texan]

Unions should be like churhces, they should be given a tax free status and not allowed to be involved in politics, period. Or they should be completely removed, trying to reform them would be damn near impossible with all the corruption.
Yep!

[Gonzo67]

Unions should be like churhces, they should be given a tax free status and not allowed to be involved in politics, period.


Ummmm show me a church that's NOT involved in Politics....

[Wyatt_Junker]

Ummmm show me a church that's NOT involved in Politics....


You mean the church of the Bailey's 'n Cream? With Pastor Daniels, first name Jack? They take care of whatever ales ya. We meet on Saturdays.

[TeenageRepublican]

Ummmm show me a church that's NOT involved in Politics....

*TR points at his church*

The only thing that's political about our church is the fact that it's named "New Life Community Church". No, it's not the one with the gay pastor. That's in Colorado Springs, this one's in Northglenn.

[Diabolita23]

Yes, TR, this guy is just another "hit and run" poster. I see he hasn't been back to defend himself. Oh yeah, I forgot, Liberals can't defend themselves!

Thank you very much SHE has come back to defend HERSELF. I'm not a liberal and I can defend myself.... sheesh.

[Rhino]

I can't see where you should. Opposing outsourcing is the liberal position, and you support free markets.

[ThomasMore]

Thank you very much SHE has come back to defend HERSELF. I'm not a liberal and I can defend myself.... sheesh.

I thought Diabolita was a feminine name... :biggrin:

It means little devil girl, don't it?

:daz:

[Beowulf]

Thank you very much SHE has come back to defend HERSELF. I'm not a liberal and I can defend myself.... sheesh.

I apologizie for calling you a "He." As for the rest, jury is still out, at least for me it is.

[Diabolita23]

I can't see where you should. Opposing outsourcing is the liberal position, and you support free markets.

Can you point out to me where I came out against outsourcing? I was just discussing it's implications, not taking a stand in opposition. I don't really think it is something that can be "opposed" at this point, is it? This "male until proven female" thing ain't so hot either. :P

[Neil Peart]

This "male until proven female" thing ain't so hot either. :PSorry, but on the Internet, that's gonna happen. Just be glad this isn't a web community that spouts "show tits or GTFO" and stuff like that.

[ThomasMore]

This "male until proven female" thing ain't so hot either. :P

Setting aside that most people didn't deconstruct the handle...

If there is no evidence of a subject's sex, the English language uses the male gender for the neutral case. That is nothing more, or less, than a usage rule. Grammatical gyrations "he or she", or plural "they" in a singular case, are incorrect.

I grant that the name you selected might have dropped a hint, but otherwise, it looks like you are taking offense where none was intended. Neither sex, male or female, was disparaged in any way.

Even where I see no offense given, Beo apologized.

Quite frankly, I am occasionally surprised to find out which posters to this forum are male, and which ones are female -- not all of the handles make it clear. To me, that also happens to be equal treatment and being measured by the content of your character.

[Gonzo67]

Or if a mistake offends you, you could always go into your profile and specify whether you are male or female, so the site will display the appropriate gender symbol below your name on the left side.

In any case, being offended that someone made a mistake when it's YOUR lack of clarification is quite insulting in itself.

And if you're unsure of what I am referring to, look to the left of this post and note the small symbol beneath my name and avatar which designates what my gender is.

[DoctorDoom]

I'm not a liberal ...Rare indeed are liberals who don't deny it.

[ThomasMore]

Diabolita, since you opened the thread, and there have been quite a few posts, with plenty of facts and opinions tendered...

What is your opinion on outsourcing?

[ThomasMore]

Rare indeed are liberals who don't deny it.

Oooh! Oooh! Wait! I know one! :idea:

.
.
.

Um... :um:

.
.
.

Um... :um:

.
.
.

Never mind. Guess it was something else.

:img101:

[Rhino]

Can you point out to me where I came out against outsourcing? I was just discussing it's implications, not taking a stand in opposition. I don't really think it is something that can be "opposed" at this point, is it? This "male until proven female" thing ain't so hot either. :PRead my post again. I said opposing outsourcing was the liberal position, which you were not advancing, hence no one could use that position to claim you were sounding like a liberal, and you shouldn't need to defend yourself based on that incorrect notion.

I didn't mention male or female, but since you don't list it in your profile, no one can be sure unless you delineate it. Not that it makes any difference as far as opinions or stances go, but people don't really know how to address you if they don't know your gender.

[TeenageRepublican]

Can you point out to me where I came out against outsourcing? I was just discussing it's implications, not taking a stand in opposition. I don't really think it is something that can be "opposed" at this point, is it? This "male until proven female" thing ain't so hot either. :P

Many people call me a 12th grader because I'm so freaking tall even though I'm an 8th grader. I don't take offense, because the people don't even know me. If I wanted to stop people from calling me a 12th grader, I would chainsaw my ankles off. But I don't really give a crap, so I don't.
Neither should you. If you want to be called a female then say "I'm a female" and put the gender sign under your screen name. Frankly, I don't see why you should care.

[ThomasMore]

Many people call me a 12th grader because I'm so freaking tall even though I'm an 8th grader. I don't take offense, because the people don't even know me. If I wanted to stop people from calling me a 12th grader, I would chainsaw my ankles off. But I don't really give a crap, so I don't.
Neither should you. If you want to be called a female then say "I'm a female" and put the gender sign under your screen name. Frankly, I don't see why you should care.

:yeahthat:

[Diabolita23]

I've always put aside my general libertarian idea that free markets should not see borders and unlimited outsourcing is perfectly fine (see, very much not against outsourcing!) when it comes to food. I'm a nutrition professional and daily in touch with how important it is to eat food that is grown locally. But, it that brings up a point I've learned Japanese friends living in the US... there are some staples of Japanese cuisine that just aren't produced locally (or even nationally). Where is the line to be drawn between nature and culture? Give up the foods and adapt to locally fed diets, losing that aspect of culture? Assimilate? Or compromise, and buy everything locally, but order abroad for the natto? Or try to change local flora and fauna to meet the cultural standards one is used to? I read in the Hollywood Reporter (http://www.reuters.com/article/email/idUSN0727588820071007) that they are making a TV show out of Outsourced - I hope they have each episode deal with a cultural issue like this.