Feds seize two tons of funny money featuring Ron Paul [Archive]

Suzie

11-16-2007, 03:40 PM

Feds seize two tons of funny money featuring Ron Paul (http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0WTTkq9Gz5Hj20A9QvQtDMD;_ylu=X3oDMTBjdmNoOTV jBHBvcwMyBHNlYwNzcg--/SIG=12ks7q4b4/EXP=1195339069/**http%3a//blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2007/11/feds-seize-two.html) http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/us/sch/bn/nw2.gif (http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0WTTkq9Gz5Hj20A9gvQtDMD;_ylu=X3oDMTBjdmNoOTV jBHBvcwMyBHNlYwNzcg--/SIG=12ks7q4b4/EXP=1195339069/**http%3a//blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2007/11/feds-seize-two.html) USA Today - Nov 16 10:38 AMFederal agents have reportedly seized illegal "Liberty Dollars" and other currency, including two tons of copper coins bearing the likeness of GOP presidential candidate Ron Paul. The raid took place yesterday in Evansville, Ind., at the headquarters of the National...

I thought Ron didn't like minted money? :biggrin: Maybe counterfeiting is okay.

Rhino

11-16-2007, 03:58 PM

Maybe they have the gold to back it up. :lol:

Suzie

11-16-2007, 04:00 PM

Lord I hope not they might give it to him.

jayson

11-16-2007, 04:31 PM

It says in that very article that Ron Paul had no affiliation with these people. They were using Ron as a marketing gimmick.

DoctorDoom

11-16-2007, 04:36 PM

Suzie

11-16-2007, 04:39 PM

Still if these folks believe in any kind of minted coin I don't know why they would pick Ron Paul to put on it. People who believe what Ron Paul believes wouldn't want it. And if they don't believe what Ron Paul believes why would they want a coin with his face on it? This might be the worst marketing gimmick ever. :lol:

Suzie

11-16-2007, 04:43 PM

So how is it counterfeiting to make "money" that is not a reproduction of any existing currency? This reminds me of the idiotic confiscation of Gospel tracts that had a million-dollar bill on one side and a salvation message on the other.

I believe they were trying to pass it off as legal currency.

“I see this as a golden opportunity to go into court and vindicate the Liberty Dollar as being legal and being the solution to our great country’s monetary problems,” von NotHaus said. “This is going to be a big trial. We’re going to be putting Evansville on the map. Because money is going to be on trial right there in Evansville.”

Maggie_T

11-16-2007, 04:49 PM

It says in that very article that Ron Paul had no affiliation with these people. They were using Ron as a marketing gimmick.

Wait ... wait ... what does that answer remind me of? Oh, yeah! When liberals are caught potty-mouthing the military and they immediately start bleating that "their words were taken out of context."

I suppose we could also say that the marketing gimmick was "taken out of context." :rotflmbo:

jayson

11-16-2007, 05:10 PM

I believe they were trying to pass it off as legal currency.

That's a pretty ambiguous definition in my opinion. I know next to nothing on the legality of this subject, so take what I say with a grain of salt... (something tells me this isn't too hard for folks here to do anyway)

If you approached me and asked if you would like to buy my car for 20 mardi gras dubloons and I said yes, then, in essence, I just bartered with you. I got me an amazing deal of 20 mardi gras dubloons and you got my car (and trust me, if I managed to get 20 mardi gras dubloons for my car in reality, I would be coming out ahead in the deal).

That's really all this "funny money" was... They weren't attempting to pass them off as legal currency at stores in public like you might be assuming, instead they have ebay-like auction sites online and craigslist-like classifieds where they exchange Liberty Dollars for items. The only thing I see here that might be an issue is that the minter of the coins was charging US dollars for the coins. But that raises the issue of whether or not he was, in essence, just bartering round metallic objects for paper objects.

EDIT: Another glaring example comes to mind. Think of a local arcade. You exchange real money for "tokens" (aka metallic coins) which you gamble away at various games hoping to win tickets, which you can then use to purchase prizes. Yet another example, a casino. You exchange real money for chips that have a "value" to them, and you gamble those away and exchange back to dollars when you leave. Again, I'm not sure what the levels of legality are regarding these things, but they are food for thought.

The biggest issue here is that the Federal reserve, which is a private cartel of bankers seeking to maximize profits, does this every day. The bills in our wallets aren't backed by any currency, they are simply IOUs from the Fed. They are the epitome of worthless currency, because they literally have no value. At the very least, with the Liberty Dollars, you are receiving Gold, Silver and Copper, which has a real and universal value. But that all is a discussion for another time.

DesertFox

11-16-2007, 05:38 PM

If they wanna show that our currency has gone to pot, they should have an mj plant on one side and a guy on the toilet on the reverse.

garlicguy

11-16-2007, 10:00 PM

So how is it counterfeiting to make "money" that is not a reproduction of any existing currency? This reminds me of the idiotic confiscation of Gospel tracts that had a million-dollar bill on one side and a salvation message on the other.

Amen!

Next up: Parker Brothers.

Hide your Monopoly Game.

From DesertFox:
If they wanna show that our currency has gone to pot, they should have an mj plant on one side and a guy on the toilet on the reverse.

Now THAT's funny. :icon133:

gg

Venus de Smilo

11-17-2007, 02:37 AM

If they wanna show that our currency has gone to pot, they should have an mj plant on one side and a guy on the toilet on the reverse.

Larry Craig???:D

Rhino

11-18-2007, 10:33 PM

It says in that very article that Ron Paul had no affiliation with these people. They were using Ron as a marketing gimmick.I kinda figured that.

Madbomber

11-18-2007, 10:39 PM

This reminds me of all the commercial from the "America mint" (which happens to be out of Liberia) selling "REAL DOLLARS" (Liberian currency again). Its bullshit and worthless. They deserved to be raided.

MB

d'urville

11-18-2007, 10:50 PM

It says in that very article that Ron Paul had no affiliation with these people. They were using Ron as a marketing gimmick.

Ummm, no, they weren't:

http://files.meetup.com/511709/RonPaulSilverDollar.jpg

(gag) ^^^^ talk about a cult of personality:

The U.S. Mint issued a warning this year that the Liberty Dollar violated the Constitution and warned consumers against using them unsuspectingly.

Paul's campaign said it had not authorized production of the Ron Paul dollars.
"We were aware they existed, but we didn't have any affiliation with them," said Jesse Benton, a spokesman for Ron Paul's campaign. "He didn't ask our permission to make them."

LINK (http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2007/11/16/illegal-ron-paul-currency-seized/)

They didn't object to them either, although they knew this was going on. He's hiding behind supporters again, common for cult leaders.

Rhino

11-18-2007, 10:52 PM

So how is it counterfeiting to make "money" that is not a reproduction of any existing currency?The US Mint had previously told them on numerous occasions that the coins were illegal, and told them to stop producing them. They refused. The people who make them also actively promoted their use in circulation by saying they "are inflation free and can restore stability to financial markets by allowing commerce based on a currency that does not fluctuate in value like the U.S. dollar." and by referring to them as "private voluntary barter currency". And I haven't seen anything yet that says they were specifically charged with counterfeiting. Since no one was arrested, I would guess that what they were doing with them was more of the issue than a specific counterfeiting charge.

Rhino

11-18-2007, 10:59 PM

Think I found it.

According to an affidavit (PDF) filed by FBI agent Andrew Romagnuolo in support of a federal seizure warrant obtained from a U.S. Magistrate last week, the feds have been investigating Liberty Dollar not just for violating federal bans on circulating alternative currency, but also for mail fraud, wire fraud, and money laundering....

...The affidavit further details Liberty Dollar's structure and terms it a "multi-level marketing scheme." The FBI claims the company realizes a profit by selling the Liberty Dollars into circulation...

...The document also mentions that the company continued to circulate Liberty Dollars after it had been warned by the US Mint not to do so....

...The affidavit concludes that because the Liberty Dollar operation uses Federal Reserve Notes to conduct its business, it is fraudulent....The document further claims there is probable cause that violations of federal law took place as a result of these activities. ...http://www.reason.com/blog/show/123553.html

Also...

Section 486. Uttering coins of gold, silver or other metal

Whoever, except as authorized by law, makes or utters or passes, or attempts to utter or pass, any coins of gold or silver or other metal, or alloys of metals, intended for use as current money, whether in the resemblance of coins of the United States or of foreign countries, or of original design, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=1939

So apparently it is a circulation and fraud issue, as opposed to counterfeiting.

Rhino

11-18-2007, 11:00 PM

By the way, the Ron Paul coins were not mentioned in the affidavit.

Sarah

11-18-2007, 11:02 PM

Trying to create a new currency is illegal. Comparing this to game tokens or monopoly money is not valid because those ideas were intended to be confined to the businesses and games that use them.
In this case they were wanting to produce an alternative to the established currency beyond a single business where your funny money is good only on that property.
Is Ron Paul involved? I would be surprised if he was considering he has a lot of fanatical followers.

Madbomber

11-18-2007, 11:05 PM

Sarah

11-18-2007, 11:13 PM

Actually some of the most expensive coins in coin collecting are Tokens. Most of those are mid 1800s gold coins though. IIRC The Pan-pacific $50 tokens are highly saught after.

MB
But are they meant to be used as currency in place of money? For example is it legal currency to be used when I go shopping for shoes at the mall? Or are they just collector items like my husband's star trek action figures and comic books?

Madbomber

11-18-2007, 11:20 PM

But are they meant to be used as currency in place of money? For example is it legal currency to be used when I go shopping for shoes at the mall? Or are they just collector items like my husband's star trek action figures and comic books?

Actually the Pan-pacific coins could be used as regular money, but the were an once of pure gold so that may have had something to do with it. BTW they wer minted in California but IIRC before the san fransico mint want build.

Its been a while since Ive researced coins forgive me if Im not right on the spot.

MB

Sarah

11-18-2007, 11:24 PM

Actually the Pan-pacific coins could be used as regular money, but the were an once of pure gold so that may have had something to do with it. BTW they wer minted in California but IIRC before the san fransico mint want build.

Its been a while since Ive researced coins forgive me if Im not right on the spot.

MB
Did those coins have approval from the united states government to be used as US currency? If so then there is no argument there.

Madbomber

11-18-2007, 11:34 PM

Did those coins have approval from the united states government to be used as US currency? If so then there is no argument there.

you know I dont really know for sure, I havent collected coins since I wan in highschool, and naturally as a kid I never had enough money to buy one, I just remember that they were the pinnicle of coin collecting even though they werent actual US currency. Google Pan-pacific $50 gold coins might come up with something. All I know is that ist deffenately not the first time coins have been minted in the US what werent Valid currency. they pretty much minted a coin for every world's fair too. Not saying these guys were right becuase they werent but that there is a grey area out there.

MB

Sarah

11-18-2007, 11:39 PM

Madbomber

11-18-2007, 11:48 PM

I dunno, what you mention is meant to be commemorative collector coins. What is mentioned in this article is intended to be an alternative to US currency.
That is illegal weather some Ron Paul fans dream it up or the state of New York invents and alternative currency.

Im almost possitive tha Pan-Pacific coins were not US currency but substituted as such. they were mented around the same time as the 1849 gold rush in California but before the government set a mint in san fran.

Irregardless, If some idiot decides to mint a coin and then some other idiot decised to recieve the coin as payment for services rendered, whats the problem? Caviat emptor right?

Minting a coin in the name of Ron Paul isnt right, but you seriously have to be a huge dumbass to accept it too. Maybe there really is a sucker born every day. :evilgrin:

Either way I doubt seriously that the Actual Ron Paul was behind it.

MB

Sarah

11-19-2007, 12:00 AM

I agree and doubt he was behind it. That would be a dumb move on his part to endorse Ron Paul money when running for president.

DesertFox

11-19-2007, 07:13 AM

Plausible deniability.

d'urville

11-19-2007, 10:51 AM

Another forum ruined by these people. Everytime I look up, there's at least one there. Two more months.

Minting a coin in the name of Ron Paul isnt right, but you seriously have to be a huge dumbass to accept it too. Maybe there really is a sucker born every day. :evilgrin:

Either way I doubt seriously that the Actual Ron Paul was behind it.

MB

Typical, you didn't even bother reading the link I posted::

1. The coins were made deliberately as a constutional test.

The raid comes eight months after von NotHaus filed a lawsuit in federal court in Evansville seeking a permanent injunction to stop the federal government from labeling the Liberty Dollar an illegal currency.

The U.S. Mint issued a warning this year that the Liberty Dollar violated the Constitution and warned consumers against using them unsuspectingly.

2. The "actual Ron Paul" knew it was going on all the while.

Paul's campaign said it had not authorized production of the Ron Paul dollars.

"We were aware they existed, but we didn't have any affiliation with them," said Jesse Benton, a spokesman for Ron Paul's campaign. "He didn't ask our permission to make them."

You'll just ignore that, too, to spam for your crank. Screw Ron Paul.

Lazarus

11-19-2007, 12:12 PM

...They didn't object to them either, although they knew this was going on. He's hiding behind supporters again, common for cult leaders.Good observation... According to his disclaimer he said he had nothing to do with this activity, but I notice that he has not brought an injunction to stop them from using his image...

Ron Paul is clearly a fraud - And cult leader is a title that fits him well...

I don't know who these bozos are who staged this, but Paul indeed should distance himself from them as this is now a serious federal crime... As it stands, he's going to take some PR damage from this stunt...

Lazarus

11-19-2007, 12:24 PM

...BTW they wer minted in California but IIRC before the san fransico mint want build.

Its been a while since Ive researced coins forgive me if Im not right on the spot.

MBIts been a while since you put down the bong too... Its affecting your spelling, capitalization, and punctuation severely... :brow:

Madbomber

11-19-2007, 02:13 PM

Its been a while since you put down the bong too... Its affecting your spelling, capitalization, and punctuation severely... :brow:

In all honesty At that point I had had a couple Rum-n-cokes. Dealing with Idiots raises the blood pressure.

Sarah

11-19-2007, 02:19 PM

Do you use diet or regular coke?

Madbomber

11-19-2007, 02:23 PM

Do you use diet or regular coke?

Regular, Diet has a nasty after taste.

Sarah

11-19-2007, 02:24 PM

Regular, Diet has a nasty after taste.
Good cuz diet is for commies anyways.

d'urville

11-19-2007, 02:24 PM

Its been a while since you put down the bong too... Its affecting your spelling, capitalization, and punctuation severely... :brow:

You know, they're all taught at their little nests like this one:

http://ronpaul.meetup.com/boards/view/listthreads?forum=661156&pager.offset=180

to try to go off topic when the subject gets too "hot".

Madbomber

11-19-2007, 02:33 PM

You know, they're all taught at their little nests like this one:

http://ronpaul.meetup.com/boards/view/listthreads?forum=661156&pager.offset=180

to try to go off topic when the subject gets too "hot".

Funny thing but when you have 10 people that throw insults and discount you for no other reason than you dont agree with them. When someone comes along with a little civility you tend to want to talk to them. Its all good though. Im going to try and let it go until Dec. 16 and then we will have another money bomb to talk about. Over 17000 pledges at the moment, thats 1.7 million if everyone just sends in the $100. How many of the other candidates are having events like this?

MB

Rhino

11-19-2007, 04:11 PM

Regular, Diet has a nasty after taste.Something we agree on. :D

JAMES1776

11-19-2007, 05:21 PM

Maybe they have the gold to back it up. :lol:

They did as a matter or fact. The feds stole all the Gold, Silver and Platinum in their mint, which is in Idaho, making the 'currency' valuless. The 19,000,000 'Liberty dollars' in circulation still contain 1 OZ of Silver and still have a bullion value of about $15, making them vastly more valuable than paper money, in a free fall against foreign currencies and backed by nothing at all.

JAMES1776

11-19-2007, 05:29 PM

I believe they were trying to pass it off as legal currency.

No, it was barter currency. Folk could pay for goods from private businesses in every state that would accept them, generally for the bullion exchange rate.

It is illegal because the coins use terms reserved for the US government like 'dollar'. If they had simply produced silver coins of 1oz size and called them 'Quatloos" they would have been fine.

I suspect the feds simply did not like the competition with the mint for bullion coins. The feds coin 1OZ, 1/2 oz, 1/4 oz and 1/10 oz gold coins as well as silver dollars. They charge a hefty premium for them above and beyond their bullion vallue. With the price of gold going up so fast, they were being undersold by the new companies selling such coinage. Why buy a US silver Eagle for $21 when you can buy a Liberty Dollar with the same silver for less?

Something else that is happening is that gold coins from about everywhere are becoming hard to find. A few months ago new US 5 dollar gold pieces were available. Now even the mint seems to have run out.

Timberwolf

11-19-2007, 07:57 PM

In all honesty At that point I had had a couple Rum-n-cokes. Dealing with Idiots raises the blood pressure.
Why ruin two perfectly good beverages by mixing them? LOL j/k

Timberwolf

11-19-2007, 08:14 PM

No, it was barter currency. Folk could pay for goods from private businesses in every state that would accept them, generally for the bullion exchange rate.
Yup.
It is illegal because the coins use terms reserved for the US government like 'dollar'. If they had simply produced silver coins of 1oz size and called them 'Quatloos" they would have been fine.
Actually, "dollar" is a measure of silver...can't remember exactly how much. So, that really isn't a reason. If they had "legal tender" printed on them, making it sound as if it were Treasury currency, then I'd agree with ya. Mind you, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong (but, it's also my story and I'm sticking to it. :D )

I suspect the feds simply did not like the competition with the mint for bullion coins. The feds coin 1OZ, 1/2 oz, 1/4 oz and 1/10 oz gold coins as well as silver dollars. They charge a hefty premium for them above and beyond their bullion vallue. With the price of gold going up so fast, they were being undersold by the new companies selling such coinage. Why buy a US silver Eagle for $21 when you can buy a Liberty Dollar with the same silver for less?
Bingo!! Cha-CHING bay-beeee!!

Something else that is happening is that gold coins from about everywhere are becoming hard to find. A few months ago new US 5 dollar gold pieces were available. Now even the mint seems to have run out.
Precious metals are "precious" for a reason...they ALWAYS have inherent value.

DesertFox

11-19-2007, 08:18 PM

Don't think so. They have value because somebody values them. Without that -- a person valuing them, not something "inherent" -- they're worthless.

Rhino

11-19-2007, 08:45 PM

They did as a matter or fact. The feds stole all the Gold, Silver and Platinum in their mint, which is in Idaho, making the 'currency' valuless.The currency was valuless to begin with. And they didn't steal anything. They seized the assets of a company that was engaging in an illegal action. Such a seizure is perfectly legal, and in this instance, perfectly understandable.

It is illegal because the coins use terms reserved for the US government like 'dollar'. If they had simply produced silver coins of 1oz size and called them 'Quatloos" they would have been fine.Not true.

Section 486. Uttering coins of gold, silver or other metal

Whoever, except as authorized by law, makes or utters or passes, or attempts to utter or pass, any coins of gold or silver or other metal, or alloys of metals, intended for use as current money, whether in the resemblance of coins of the United States or of foreign countries, or of original design, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.Emphasis added.