Huckabee: the soft spoken flim flam clown !

[johnwk]

Mike Huckabee believes “that every child should have the opportunity for a quality education that teaches the fundamental skills needed to compete in a global economy“ (see HERE (http://www.mikehuckabee.com/index.cfm?FuseAction=Issues.View&Issue_id=7))

Sounds great Mike, but public education is not a federal issue! The federal Department of Education should be closed down Mike! Do you propose to close down the federal Department of Education or expand its iron fist with more unconstitutional No Child Left Behind nonsense?

Tell us Mike, did you know that by closing down the Federal Department of Education and reducing federal taxes among the states by the rule of apportionment and the size of the Department’s budget [$ 67 BILLION, which was America’s entire federal budget in 1952] the people of Michigan would have their taxes reduced by a very generous $26 MILLION which I‘m sure would help the people of Michigan fund their State authorized public school system, and do so without federal meddling and its social engineering.

Tell us Mike, are you against closing down the federal Department of Education because the iron fist of the federal government would be weakened and Congress would loose 5,000 loyal foot soldiers holding political plum jobs at the Department who have excessive salaries, top of the shelf medical benefits and outrageous pension programs which Mary and Joe Sixpack living in Michigan can only dream of having but are taxed to finance?

We all know the employees at the federal Department of Education holding political plum jobs double as Congress’s loyal foot soldieries during federal election time to help prop up the Washington Establishment political plum job Empire. Why are you not speaking against Washington’s political plum job empire?

What say you Mike? A return to federalism and closing down the federal Department of Education, or, should we ignore our Constitution and allow Congress to continue making Mary and Joe Sixpack their personal tax slaves so they can finance the Washington Establishment’s Empire?

"The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation and foreign commerce. ... The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives and liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement and prosperity of the State."________ Federalist No. 45

Mike Huckabee says: “As President, I will work with the private sector, Congress, health care providers, and other concerned parties to lead a complete overhaul of our health care system.” (see HERE (http://www.mikehuckabee.com/index.cfm?FuseAction=Issues.View&Issue_id=8))

Overhaul of our health care system.? Tell us Mike, by what constitutionally authorized power does the President of the United States have power to enter the States and involve himself in the health care needs of the people or the delivery of health care? If there is any need for government involvement in the personal health care needs of people, that power is reserved by our federal Constitution respectively to the various State governments or the people in each state.

Following federalism, our Constitution’s plan, an getting the federal government out of the health care needs of the people keeps alive a very healthy competition among the states and prevents an absolute power of corruption now experienced via federal regulatory involvement in the pharmaceutical industry and would also prevent national price fixing via Medicare.

Tell us Mike, are you in favor of a return to federalism and competition among the States which means ending federal price fixing under Medicare and ending the corrupted federal regulatory power over the pharmaceutical industry __ ending a federal power that now panders to the highest political campaign contributors? Let’s hear it Mike ___ for or against federalism?

Mike Huckabee says: “I support the FairTax.”(see HERE (http://www.mikehuckabee.com/index.cfm?FuseAction=Issues.View&Issue_id=5))

Now why would any freedom loving person with an ounce of brains support an additional federal tax being created, the alleged fair tax, which happens to be a socialist friendly and big government friendly tax proposal designed to keep alive Congress‘s power to calculate taxes from profits, gains, salaries and other “incomes” and create a new 23 percent tax on the people‘s property, real and personal?

Perhaps Mike has not read the actual text of H.R. 25, which makes it quite clear the proposal would not remove from Congress's power its current ability to calculate taxes from profits, gains, salaries and other "incomes" but it does proposes to create an additional tax in America, a 23 percent federal tax calculated from the sale of property, real and personal which would be in addition to any excise taxes Congress may dream up including taxes calculated from profits, gains, salaries and other incomes.

Tell us Mike, did you know the alleged fair tax proposes to put every American family on the public dole with an entitlement called the family consumption allowance and the number of people who would be eligible for the entitlement would dwarf the number of Social Security recipients?

Do you really think it is wise to create such a massive voting block dependent upon a monthly government check? Wouldn’t the creation of such a massive voting block create a very dangerous dependent constituency for Senator Ted Socialist Kennedy and his disciples in Congress who would gladly promise to increase the family consumption allowance during elections to buy votes and remain in power? Were we not warned in the Federalist Papers that control over a man’s subsistence amounts to a power over his will?

The family consumption allowance, Mike, would be giving a monthly bonus to welfare moms who do not work, stay at home, and others already on the public dole. In addition, those who steal other people’s money for a living, and do not contribute into the common treasury, would also get a monthly bonus under the family consumption allowance which is dolled out from taxes paid by Mary and Joe Sixpack who can barely meet their own family’s needs. Why do you want to give a bonus to people who steal other people money and property, and a bonus to people already on the public dole. Seems quite clear the family consumption allowance turns out to be a massive redistribution of money from those who contribute into the federal treasury to those already on the public dole, and even thugs who steal other people‘s property. Why do you want to give these people a reward Mike old boy? Why not simply return to our Constitution’s original tax plan Mike which has a fair share formula for any general tax among the states?


State`s population
-------------------------------X SUM TO BE RAISED = STATE`S SHARE
Total U.S. Population


In addition Mike, abortion and homosexual marriage is a state issue, not a federal issue. Why do you want to subjugate federalism, our Constitution big tent system, and impose you personal predilections upon the people in every state of the Union? Could it be that you are a control freak? As I recall, you have also stated you want to use the federal government’s power to trespass State borders and forbid smoking on privately owned property. Control freaks do that Mike, not people who support the unalienable right of people to do stupid things. Tell us Mike, what happened in your early childhood to make you a control freak?

JWK

If we can make the majority of America’s population dependent upon a federal government check, [H.R.25‘s family consumption allowance], we can then bribe them for their vote, keep ourselves in power, and keep the remaining portion of America’s population enslaved to pay the bills.

[Timberwolf]

Mike Huckabee...the pro-life liberal.

[Maggie_T]

Really? Because I saw him on Fox News just a few minutes ago and he made an awful lot of sense. Especially on taxes. :question:

[Timberwolf]

That's how they refer to him in Missouri...

[Maggie_T]

Oh, they have liberals in Missouri?

[DesertFox]

Only in Saint Louis and Kansas City -- on each extremity.

[garlicguy]

Only in Saint Louis and Kansas City -- on each extremity.

Is that like warts on the nose and the arse?

[johnwk]

Really? Because I saw him on Fox News just a few minutes ago and he made an awful lot of sense. Especially on taxes.

Maggie,

Huckabee is promoting the fairy tale version of H.R. 25, the alleged fair tax. The text of H.R. 25 is nothing like his fairy tale version!

He was also babbling on how the alleged fair tax was created by a group of private sector business men. Before we get to who they really are, let us remember Linder, primary pusher of H.R. 25, is also the mouthpiece for the NAFTA/CAFTA international crowd, who have no allegiance to America or any nation and mimic the dishonorable business practices of our former Trusts and Monopolies of The late 1800’s early 1900’s.

The alleged fait tax is intentionally designed to allow these international corporate giants, who have no allegiance to America or any nation, to set up business on American soil and utilize America’s labor pool tax free and receive the protections of our government without contributing into our federal treasury!


As to the architects behind H.R. 25, they are very well financed, $22 MILLION, and represent the interests of international corporate giants via fairtax org which is a government created 501 tax exempt cabal ___ perhaps that is why fairtax.org advocates a proposal which guarantees to fund our existing and bloated Washington Establishment’s political plum job empire through H.R. 25’s revenue neutral feature, and, in return, this international Global Governance Crowd (http://www.cfr.org/publication/8626/global_governance_issue_brief.html), the NAFTA gang, get to utilize America’s labor pool tax free!

If Huckabee were sincere about real and meaningful tax reform he would be promoting adding the following words to our Constitution:

The Sixteenth Amendment is hereby repealed and Congress is henceforth forbidden to lay ``any`` tax or burden calculated from profits, gains, interest, salaries, wages, tips, inheritances or any other lawfully realized money

This would bringing us back to our FOUNDING FATHER’S ORIGINAL TAX PLAN (http://usafoundingfathers.blogspot.com/2006/03/founding-fathers-original-tax-plan.html) which was created by tax rebels and designed to control the actions of Congress, rather than having Congress control the people.

Regards,
JWK

If we can make the majority of America’s population dependent upon a federal government check, [H.R.25‘s family consumption allowance], we can then bribe them for their vote, keep ourselves in power, and keep the remaining portion of America’s population enslaved to pay the bills.

[Riverboat]

Is that like warts on the nose and the arse?Tee-hee! More like pimples. I only get warts on my finger.

[johnwk]

Huckabee has conned unsuspecting voters into believing the alleged fair tax will stop Congress from calculating taxes from profits, gains salaries and other incomes, which happens to be an outright lie! But heck, all good con jobs are based on something the mark wants, but somehow never gets!

If you want to understand the mechanics of Huckabee’s rise in the polls, see:
Fair Tax Voters Boost Huckabee (http://www.iowaindependent.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=785)


Voters bused to the Ames Straw Poll by Americans for Fair Taxation helped give a boost to suprise second-place poll winner Mike Huckabee, according to both a spokesman for the group and Huckabee campaign manager Chip Saltsman. Asked about things that might have made the difference for Huckabee, who did not bus voters to the poll and purchased about 1,850 tickets for supporters, Saltsman said, "We talked a lot about the fair tax."

The group, better known as FairTax.org, bused about 500 voting Iowans and 1,000 other supporters to the Straw Poll today, according to FairTax.org national director of grassroots Mike Rose. The group sponsored a ferris wheel -- the "Fairest Wheel," they called it -- at the Straw Poll, as well as a fan-cooled tent serving barbecue and dessert to supporters. This came on the heels of a two-week, 25-stop bus tour across the state to drum up enthusiasm for the group's tax reform plan, which Huckabee supports. Poll winner Mitt Romney and third-place finisher Sen. Sam Brownback do not support the plan.

All told, the group spent $150,000 on the straw poll, according to national spokesman Ken Hoagland -- roughly the same amount as the Huckabee campaign itself. "We're about 6 inches off the ground," said Hoagland. "We see it as a victory for our issue."


JWK

If we can make the majority of America’s population dependent upon a federal government check, [H.R.25‘s family consumption allowance], we can then bribe them for their vote, keep ourselves in power, and keep the remaining portion of America’s population enslaved to pay the bills.

[HomeschoolrsRUs]

Are we talking the same "Fair Tax" promoted by Neal Boortz?

[Nutrider99]

Huckabee on his worst day is a better alternative than any democreep running. Is he pro-choice? So what! The president has no more say on that issue than anyone else other than in the appointment of judges which CONGRESS has to approve. Does he support education? He was a GOVERNOR and most govenors do. However the Constitution leaves that matter to the states and in no way supports the idea of federalized education. Again, the president is an administrator. Congress makes laws.

There are no conservatives running. So far, it seems to me that Huckabee's as close as any of them, and as far away.

[johnwk]

Are we talking the same "Fair Tax" promoted by Neal Boortz?

Yup! The TEXT OF H.R.25 (http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h109-25) is nothing like the fairy tale version panhandled by Neal Boortz and Rep. John Linder. As a matter of fact, it’s very much like the Amnesty Bill which almost passed until the details were closely looked at.


JWK

[Aaron]

Huckabee on his worst day is a better alternative than any democreep running. Is he pro-choice? So what! The president has no more say on that issue than anyone else other than in the appointment of judges which CONGRESS has to approve. Does he support education? He was a GOVERNOR and most govenors do. However the Constitution leaves that matter to the states and in no way supports the idea of federalized education. Again, the president is an administrator. Congress makes laws.

There are no conservatives running. So far, it seems to me that Huckabee's as close as any of them, and as far away.

He is pro-amnesty, which makes him a traitor to this country. Any candidate, and the people who vote for them, who support amnesty bills are traitors to this country. Voting for someone who wants to legalize millions of illegals makes you a traitor as well. Pick your candidates wisely.

[ThomasMore]

Is [Huckabee] pro-choice?

No. He is a Baptist minister.

[Aaron]

No. He is a Baptist minister.
[/color]

A baptist minister that supports the 'rights' of illegals to invade our country and stay here indefinetely.

[Nutrider99]

He is pro-amnesty, which makes him a traitor to this country.
I support a guest worker program. I support registration and tracking of those who are in this country. I support a pathway to legalized status that does NOT include citizenship. I support open minds and closed borders. I support non-permanent work visa's. I support driver licenses that clearly state that the bearer is NOT a citizen of this country. I support deportation of any and all illegal aliens, but catch and release is for fishing.

Any candidate, and the people who vote for them, who support amnesty bills are traitors to this country.
The real traitors are the members of the democreep party and others who are actively seeking the surrender of the United States to foreign terrorists because they believe it is politically beneficial.

[Aaron]

I support a guest worker program. I support registration and tracking of those who are in this country. I support a pathway to legalized status that does NOT include citizenship. I support open minds and closed borders. I support non-permanent work visa's. I support driver licenses that clearly state that the bearer is NOT a citizen of this country. I support deportation of any and all illegal aliens, but catch and release is for fishing.


The real traitors are the members of the democreep party and others who are actively seeking the surrender of the United States to foreign terrorists because they believe it is politically beneficial.

They do not deserve to be guest workers, registered, tracked, a pathway to legalized status, or any kind of work visa's, DEFINETELY not driver's liscenses, but deportation is fine. Imminent deportation. Actually, I would prefer if the government would put into place policies that would force illegals to self-deport.

Huckabee, who supports a pathway to citizenship 'with fines' (or a tap on the wrist) is a traitor to this country. He will never get my vote, nor will anyone who supports illegal immigration.

[johnwk]

He is pro-amnesty, which makes him a traitor to this country. Any candidate, and the people who vote for them, who support amnesty bills are traitors to this country. Voting for someone who wants to legalize millions of illegals makes you a traitor as well. Pick your candidates wisely.

:claps:

Regards,

JWK

[Timberwolf]

All that has to be done to acheive "self-deportation" is to give the illegals the same right you and I have to sue ANY employer who doesn't pay them at least minimum wage. Give all businesses a one week grace period in which they fire ALL illegals in their employ. Let these businesses know that, after said grace period expires, they are fair game...problem solved.

[Maggie_T]

They do not deserve to be guest workers, registered, tracked, a pathway to legalized status, or any kind of work visa's, DEFINETELY not driver's liscenses, but deportation is fine. Imminent deportation. Actually, I would prefer if the government would put into place policies that would force illegals to self-deport.



Got to agree with Aaron on that one.

[Maggie_T]

I support open minds and closed borders.


Nutrider, with all due respect, be a darling and spare us the 'open minds' mantra. Open minds have nothing to do with illegal immigration. In fact, the vast majority of lefties who want open borders also boast of being 'open minded.'

[Longhorn_Platinum]

Maggie_T:
In fact, the vast majority of lefties who want open borders also boast of being 'open minded.'

:unsmile: Since when do you believe anything they say?

[Rhino]

Nutrider, with all due respect, be a darling and spare us the 'open minds' mantra. Open minds have nothing to do with illegal immigration. In fact, the vast majority of lefties who want open borders also boast of being 'open minded.'Just because they boast it doesn't make it true. After all, they also boast that they stand up for the middle class, among many other myths. I think Nutrider was refering to being truly open minded, as opposed to the mythical version the dems boast of.

[Maggie_T]

:unsmile: Since when do you believe anything they say?

Who said I do? THEY do, though.

Just because they boast it doesn't make it true. After all, they also boast that they stand up for the middle class, among many other myths. I think Nutrider was refering to being truly open minded, as opposed to the mythical version the dems boast of.--Rhino

Ok, ok. I get it. What's this? "Let's Beat Maggie Upside the Head" Day?

Jeez.

[Nutrider99]

They do not deserve to be guest workers, registered, tracked, a pathway to legalized status, or any kind of work visa's, DEFINETELY not driver's liscenses, but deportation is fine.
Deserves has nothing to do with it. The fact is, they perform menial tasks for sub-prime pay for people who can't afford to pay a decent wage. People point to a few big contractors and and use anecdotal evidence to claim that all illegals are taking jobs from Americans but that is simply the exception, not the rule. Many of the migrant farm workers are wetbacks, but small farmers have to do what they can to compete with larger, more mechanized farms. The fact is, you don't need educated, highly paid workers to pick tomatoes.

There are an estimated 12 million illegals in America. If you think we're simply going to deport them all, don't respond to me because your thinking is childish and unrealistic. If you blame Bush for the issue, go back and play with your Leggos. The border between Mexico and America has NEVER been properly guarded by either nation. Since 9/11 we've become more concerned with border security, especially in the wake of an increase in gang activity and drug smuggling. However, we must remember that CONGRESS, not the president, makes law.

A proper guest worker program would track those in the US and allow them to work here so long as they conformed to our laws and learned to speak our language. It would NOT offer citizenship. We HAVE pathways to citizenship. If a Mexican citizen wants to become an American, let him serve in the American military for 6 years. As far as I am concerned, he need perform no other service.

[Nutrider99]

Nutrider, with all due respect, be a darling and spare us the 'open minds' mantra. Open minds have nothing to do with illegal immigration. In fact, the vast majority of lefties who want open borders also boast of being 'open minded.'
What's this? "Let's Beat Maggie Upside the Head" Day?
Yes. Didn't you get the memo?

You should have an open mind in considering the entire scope of the issue, as well as possible solutions. Bush's guest worker program was 75% right, and 100% more than anything clintoon ever did. Why did clintoon get a pass on the issue? The serial perjurer hillary clintoon was ALREADY in the white House for eight years. What did she do about the issue? Absolutely nothing. What did she do about health care? She attempted to nationalize it. What did she do about terrorists? She kissed their ring. What did she do about illegal campaign contributions? She solicited and accepted them. What did she do about the economy? She declared war on Microsoft and cratered the NSADAQ. What did she do about women's rights? She ran the Bimbo Eruption Squad and destroyed the reputation of every accuser. What did she do about China? She took their money and helped her husband turn over nuclear warfare technology. What did she do about law and order? She hired Janet Reno. Remember Waco? Ruby Ridge? Elian Gonzales? Remember machine guns in the faces of children? 900 illegal FBI files? Pardons for sale? Arlington cemetary plots for sale? Pardons for FALN terrorists? Perjury before Congress?

People are awfully critical about Bush, but damn, people. NOT ONE THING he has been accused of has been true. With the clintoons it was a new felony every week! Bush offered a potential solution. It was imperfect. Yet, WHERE IS THE CONSERVATIVE BILL? Our conservatives in Congress have offered us NOTHING! That's where the blame lies, not with the hired administrator.

[Aaron]

Wow, we have a pro-amnesty guy.

Yes, it is realistic to deport the 20 million plus illegal invaders. It is called self-deporation tactics. Make it so they don't want to live here, and they will leave by their own free will.

:thumb:

[Maggie_T]

Yes. Didn't you get the memo?

No, dash it. I'm always the last one to know. :sulk:

You should have an open mind in considering the entire scope of the issue, as well as possible solutions.

I'm sorry, Nutri. But in my experience, that usually means letting illegals and their panderers get away with it. But have it your way.

Bush's guest worker program was 75% right, and 100% more than anything clintoon ever did.

I won't even bother to comment on the part about the Clintons, it's so obvious. As for Bush's 75%, it is still not good enough for me. The remaining 25% leaves room for too much mischief. And open-borders lefties will certainly make the most of that.

Why did clintoon get a pass on the issue? The serial perjurer hillary clintoon was ALREADY in the white House for eight years. What did she do about the issue? Absolutely nothing. What did she do about health care? She attempted to nationalize it. What did she do about terrorists? She kissed their ring. What did she do about illegal campaign contributions? She solicited and accepted them. What did she do about the economy? She declared war on Microsoft and cratered the NSADAQ. What did she do about women's rights? She ran the Bimbo Eruption Squad and destroyed the reputation of every accuser. What did she do about China? She took their money and helped her husband turn over nuclear warfare technology. What did she do about law and order? She hired Janet Reno. Remember Waco? Ruby Ridge? Elian Gonzales? Remember machine guns in the faces of children? 900 illegal FBI files? Pardons for sale? Arlington cemetary plots for sale? Pardons for FALN terrorists? Perjury before Congress?

Thank you for reminding me of the most mortifying times of our history. What has all that to do with illegal immigration?

Of course, the Clintons get a pass on everything. Or wasn't that your point?

People are awfully critical about Bush, but damn, people. NOT ONE THING he has been accused of has been true. With the clintoons it was a new felony every week! Bush offered a potential solution. It was imperfect. Yet, WHERE IS THE CONSERVATIVE BILL? Our conservatives in Congress have offered us NOTHING! That's where the blame lies, not with the hired administrator.

Nutri, take a deep breath. You're going to give yourself heartburn.

So let's see, you think that our (alledgedly) conservatives in CONgress have done absolutely nothing to stop illegal immigration. Then who was it that shot the Amnesty Bill dead, much to Bush's chagrin? And seeing as how Bush isn't running for prez anymore, who's left to make suggestions? Looks like that leaves only open-borders demunists.

Sorry. My mind is not that open. If it was, my brains would fall out. Ok, now (place your sarcastic comment here).

[Maggie_T]

Wow, we have a pro-amnesty guy.

Yes, it is realistic to deport the 20 million plus illegal invaders. It is called self-deporation tactics. Make it so they don't want to live here, and they will leave by their own free will.

:thumb:


That would be one way of getting the job done.

[Rhino]

Ok, ok. I get it. What's this? "Let's Beat Maggie Upside the Head" Day?

Jeez.I would never beat on you Mags. You know I have a secret crush on you. :D

Well, maybe not that secret. :rotflmbo:

[Maggie_T]

Aww http://freeconservatives.com/smilies/bashful.gif

Besides, you know I can give as well as I can take. :boxer: :devil:

Love ya, too, hon.

[Nutrider99]

Wow, we have a pro-amnesty guy.
Please show me anywhere in anything that I have ever written that would support this lunacy. I'm not pro- amnesty or pro- open borders.
Yes, it is realistic to deport the 20 million plus illegal invaders. It is called self-deporation tactics. Make it so they don't want to live here, and they will leave by their own free will.
That's not the same as deportation. Here is my proposal.
1. Declare that all illegal immigrants have a certain period of time to register. Failing to register would be a frelony punishable by chain gang follwed by deportation.
2. All registered aliens would then be screened for undesirable elements. Those who have American sponsors and who have jobs here would be allowed to become legal guest workers: citzens of their own country and not eligible for American benefits.
3. Any cost incurred to the federal government by the guest workers would be subsequently billed to their country of origin.
4. The children of legal guest workers would be allowed to attend public school for paid tuition, but would not be elligible for financial aid. Let their government take care of them.
5. The Constitution should be amended to offer citizenship only to those born within our borders to mothers who were legally in this country at the time of birth.
6. Babies born in America to non-citizens have the right to American citizenship, but not the parents. Let them return when they are of legal age.
7. Retirement benefits for guest workers would be the responsibility of the host government, because that's where the workers will go when they are no longer able to work.
8. Driving permits could be issued so long as the residency of the bearer was clearly indicated Any guest worker attempting to influence the American election process would be sentanced first to prison and then to deportation.
9. Mandatory jail time for politicians seeking votes from non-citizens.
10. Immediate removal from the political process by any politician who campaigns in a language other than English.
11. Most importantly, a guest worker program would have ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with citizenship. One thing has nothing to do with the other.

[Nutrider99]

So let's see, you think that our (alledgedly) conservatives in CONgress have done absolutely nothing to stop illegal immigration. Then who was it that shot the Amnesty Bill dead, much to Bush's chagrin?
I don't care what they voted against. That was THE CONSTITUENTS that gave will to the otherwise spineless. What did the "conservatives" propose? Where is the CONSERVATIVE immigration bill? They said Bush was wrong, but didn't offer what was right!

[Maggie_T]

Nutrider, I don't agree, but I'll play. Your plan could only work if we could get 100% compliance with all those laws. How do you guarantee that?

[Maggie_T]

I don't care what they voted against. That was THE CONSTITUENTS that gave will to the otherwise spineless. What did the "conservatives" propose? Where is the CONSERVATIVE immigration bill? They said Bush was wrong, but didn't offer what was right!

Well, at least they did what the constituency demanded of them, didn't they?

Would you have preferred that they ignored us and pass the Amnesty Bill?

Isn't it better to have a CONgress that listens to the consitutency if only once in a while?

[Nutrider99]

Well, at least they did what the constituency demanded of them, didn't they?
Let me ask two questions.
1. Who were the leaders and who were the followers on this issue.
2. Do we elect people to be leaders or followers?

[Lazarus]

Im all for the "Open Minds" approach...

I think our current immigration laws that deal equally with all LEGAL APPLICANTS for citizenship is a very open-minded, honest, caring, and sensitive way to deal with ALL legal, law-abiding immigrants...

I open-mindedly invite all illegal aliens present in this country to return to their own countries, apply for US Citizenship, and RESPECT OUR LAWS!!!

I believe we should be open-minded to all possible ways to severely punish those selfish, treasonous businessmen who hire illegal immigants, as well as those co-conspirators who enable this invasion of our nation by harboring and providing sanctuary to illegal aliens...

Like a big department store late at night, I want to hear the announcement over the national loudspeakers, "The United States will be closing in 5 minutes... Please make your final purchases and move to the exits - Which, BTW, will be WIDE OPEN!

[Nutrider99]

Nutrider, I don't agree, but I'll play. Your plan could only work if we could get 100% compliance with all those laws. How do you guarantee that?
We put forth a conservative solution and elect conservatives to enact it.

[Nutrider99]

I open-mindedly invite all illegal aliens present in this country to return to their own countries, apply for US Citizenship, and RESPECT OUR LAWS!!!
The problem is, when you have sanctuary cities and police officers who are not allowed to consider a person's legal status, how can you say that we have laws against illegal immigration? How can you expect a broke and starving peasant to take our laws seriously when we don't? When you leave the door open for a hundred years, you get flies. Sooner or later, you have to close the door.

I have no intention of picking watermelons. Let's get Juan, Otiz and the boys cleared through immigration and back into the field. They aren't here thnking of becoming citizens. They're here because they can make more money as a picker in Texas than they could as a lawyer in Juarez. Let them work, then let them go home.

[Lazarus]

The problem is, when you have sanctuary cities and police officers who are not allowed to consider a person's legal status, how can you say that we have laws against illegal immigration? How can you expect a broke and starving peasant to take our laws seriously when we don't? When you leave the door open for a hundred years, you get flies. Sooner or later, you have to close the door. It is NOT the responsibility of Municipal police to enforce Federal Immigration laws... We have a behemoth of a Federal government that can damned well get off their money-spending, privilaged asses and enforce Federal Law... If we can spend $billions on foreign military campaigns and fraudulent domestic giveaway programs, we can damned well increase the INS to the size of an army, build a solid, well-patrolled fence, and prosecute to the bone anyone who is complicit in this invasion... ITS A FEDERAL ISSUE AND THEY HAVE ALL THE MONEY!

I have no intention of picking watermelons. Let's get Juan, Otiz and the boys cleared through immigration and back into the field. They aren't here thnking of becoming citizens. They're here because they can make more money as a picker in Texas than they could as a lawyer in Juarez. Let them work, then let them go home.If Juan, Ortiz and the boys don't want to become contributing citizens of this nation, with all the responsibilities that go along with it, they damned well are not welcome to indulge in our PROSPERITY!

And it wouldn't hurt you to pick a couple of watermelons - It would do your soul good...

[Nutrider99]

It is NOT the responsibility of Municipal police to enforce Federal Immigration laws.
When a police officer is prevented from calling INS when dealing with a known illegal alien, when a city gives sanctuary to illegals, and when immigration laws are ignored by other lawmakers, then those immigration laws lose their meaning.
.. We have a behemoth of a Federal government that can damned well get off their money-spending, privilaged asses and enforce Federal Law...
Law is law. Does that mean a municipal oficer is exempt from arresting people wanted for tax evasion, desertion from the military or other federal crimes? Should a city be allowed to give sanctuary to violators of the federal income tax?

If Juan, Ortiz and the boys don't want to become contributing citizens of this nation, with all the responsibilities that go along with it, they damned well are not welcome to indulge in our PROSPERITY!
Prosperity? They're picking watermelons in the heat for $60. per day. That's wealth? They are here to work and send their money home. That's fine with me. They aren't here to become citizens. You don't become a citizen by sneaking across the border. They are trying to feed their families. Who the heck wants to make citizens of them?

And it wouldn't hurt you to pick a couple of watermelons - It would do your soul good...
Jesus never picked a watermellon in His life, and I strive to be just like Jesus in every way I can.

[DesertFox]

I hear he's white, which means he's a racist. And he's a man, meaning he's a potential rapist. And he's not liberal, so he's not Green, which means he hates the earth. And he's from Arkansas, which means his kids got bad teeth and play the banjo.

So what's not to like about him? :D

[CzechPrince]

Deserves has nothing to do with it. The fact is, they perform menial tasks for sub-prime pay for people who can't afford to pay a decent wage. People point to a few big contractors and and use anecdotal evidence to claim that all illegals are taking jobs from Americans but that is simply the exception, not the rule. Many of the migrant farm workers are wetbacks, but small farmers have to do what they can to compete with larger, more mechanized farms. The fact is, you don't need educated, highly paid workers to pick tomatoes.

There are an estimated 12 million illegals in America. If you think we're simply going to deport them all, don't respond to me because your thinking is childish and unrealistic. If you blame Bush for the issue, go back and play with your Leggos. The border between Mexico and America has NEVER been properly guarded by either nation. Since 9/11 we've become more concerned with border security, especially in the wake of an increase in gang activity and drug smuggling. However, we must remember that CONGRESS, not the president, makes law.

A proper guest worker program would track those in the US and allow them to work here so long as they conformed to our laws and learned to speak our language. It would NOT offer citizenship. We HAVE pathways to citizenship. If a Mexican citizen wants to become an American, let him serve in the American military for 6 years. As far as I am concerned, he need perform no other service.

:claps:

[Rhino]

And he's from Arkansas, which means his kids got bad teeth and play the banjo.Making pig noises. You forgot making pig noises, especially when confronted by canoeists from out of town. :D

[Maggie_T]

Im all for the "Open Minds" approach...

I think our current immigration laws that deal equally with all LEGAL APPLICANTS for citizenship is a very open-minded, honest, caring, and sensitive way to deal with ALL legal, law-abiding immigrants...

I open-mindedly invite all illegal aliens present in this country to return to their own countries, apply for US Citizenship, and RESPECT OUR LAWS!!!

I believe we should be open-minded to all possible ways to severely punish those selfish, treasonous businessmen who hire illegal immigants, as well as those co-conspirators who enable this invasion of our nation by harboring and providing sanctuary to illegal aliens...

Like a big department store late at night, I want to hear the announcement over the national loudspeakers, "The United States will be closing in 5 minutes... Please make your final purchases and move to the exits - Which, BTW, will be WIDE OPEN!


Yeppers. Especially that part in red. :claps:

[Maggie_T]

Let me ask two questions.
1. Who were the leaders and who were the followers on this issue.
2. Do we elect people to be leaders or followers?

1. We the People were the leaders, as it should be.
2. We elect people to represent us. That means, we put them in office so that they will carry out our requests.

The only kind of leadership we expect is that shown by someone somewhere with the cojones to make the other elected bastards do what we put them in office to do. Do not confuse 'petty dictator' with 'leader,' Nutri. The two are NOT interchangeable.

Or would you prefer to 'elect' people who immediately set themselves up as petty dictators and thumb their noses at our requests ... oh, wait ... that's what we have right now. Are you happy with that then?

[Maggie_T]

We put forth a conservative solution and elect conservatives to enact it.


That's not a guarantee. That's just vague wishful-thinking. My point in asking you the question was to prove that in a realistic world, your plan is also vague and wishful-thinking and honestly cannot succeed. Thank you for making my case.

[Maggie_T]

The problem is, when you have sanctuary cities and police officers who are not allowed to consider a person's legal status, how can you say that we have laws against illegal immigration? How can you expect a broke and starving peasant to take our laws seriously when we don't? When you leave the door open for a hundred years, you get flies. Sooner or later, you have to close the door.

I have no intention of picking watermelons. Let's get Juan, Otiz and the boys cleared through immigration and back into the field. They aren't here thnking of becoming citizens. They're here because they can make more money as a picker in Texas than they could as a lawyer in Juarez. Let them work, then let them go home.


Hello, what's this? Compassionate conservatism?

Nutri, you were doing fine until the second paragraph, in which you sound as if you were encouraging slave labor. Well done, mate. And so open minded. Bet you're proud of yourself.

[Maggie_T]

Jesus never picked a watermellon in His life, and I strive to be just like Jesus in every way I can.


Well, you're making a bad job of it. Jesus was all about humility. As far as I've read, one cannot use the word 'humility' in connection with you. It would be an oxymoron.

[Nutrider99]

The only kind of leadership we expect is that shown by someone somewhere with the cojones to make the other elected bastards do what we put them in office to do.
Show me who demonstrates that leadership.
Or would you prefer to 'elect' people who immediately set themselves up as petty dictators and thumb their noses at our requests
No, I want LEADERS, like Reagan was.
... oh, wait ... that's what we have right now.
Now you sound like hillary. The problem we have in Washington is that there are no conservatives with backbone. Bush is a leader, but sometimes even the best of leaders can be horribly wrong. That's why we need to elect strong conservatives.

[Nutrider99]

My point in asking you the question was to prove that in a realistic world, your plan is also vague and wishful-thinking and honestly cannot succeed.
My plan makes a lot more sense then pretending we are going to deport 12 million people. It's NOT going to happen, there is NO political will for it, so forget the notion.

[Nutrider99]

Nutri, you were doing fine until the second paragraph, in which you sound as if you were encouraging slave labor.
Not slave labor, farm labor. There is a difference. These people are from a third world country and are willing to do the menial labor for less money, because that money is many, many times what they would make at home doing the same thing. If it were slave labor, would there be 12 MILLION OF THEM???

[Maggie_T]

Show me who demonstrates that leadership.

Those who had the pair to shoot the Amnesty Bill down.

No, I want LEADERS, like Reagan was.

Oh, pipe down. You sound like a brat pulling a tantrum.

Now you sound like hillary.

Oh, dear. :rolleyes:

The problem we have in Washington is that there are no conservatives with backbone. Bush is a leader, but sometimes even the best of leaders can be horribly wrong. That's why we need to elect strong conservatives.

Why don't you run, then? Looks like you're the be all and end all of conservatism.

[Maggie_T]

My plan makes a lot more sense then pretending we are going to deport 12 million people. It's NOT going to happen, there is NO political will for it, so forget the notion.

As soon as you forget the notion that your many-bulleted plan is loophole-free, or that people (being what they are) are going to abide by it without question or thought.

[Maggie_T]

Not slave labor, farm labor.

Oh, is that what they call it, these days?

There is a difference. These people are from a third world country and are willing to do the menial labor for less money, because that money is many, many times what they would make at home doing the same thing.

Well, Hello Dolly! Now you sound like Barbra Streisand and her elitist ilk.

Oh, sure. Let's allow those poor lesser humans in so they can clean our toilets and pick our lettuce, shall we? After all, according to you, that's all they are capable of. Oh, and of course, there's the bonus that you can pay them chump change. Let's hope their countries never give them prosperity and opportunity, so that we never run out of maids and gardeners.

That's racism, and no mistake. And don't try to shut me up by calling me a liberal. Even hard-core right-wingers like me know what racism is. Especially when it shoved right under our nose.

Your plan to keep the low class low is very commendable, Nutri. Hollywood would be proud of you.

If it were slave labor, would there be 12 MILLION OF THEM???

DUH-UH! They are here doing work that American like you won't do, aren't they? Picking lettuce that people like you are too proud to soil their white hands doing. And for chump change.

Basically, their situation is the following. Their own country is ruled by elitist despots who don't give a damn for the people. So they come here to to menial work that folk like you don't want to do for a bloody pittance. Result: they have NOTHING to look forward to but an eternal life of cleaning toilets and picking vegetables.

Nutri, putting a man in shackles is not the only way to make him a slave.

[Nutrider99]

Oh, sure. Let's allow those poor lesser humans in so they can clean our toilets and pick our lettuce, shall we?
Toilets need to be cleaned. Lettuce needs to be picked. It's honorable work that a man can do to support his family. The poorest of Americans live better that 72% of the world's population. One farm laborer can support an entire family back in Mexico. The second largest source of income for Mexico is money being sent back to Mexico from workers in the US. I didn't create that reality, I simply acknowledge it. In agrarian societies people are accustomed to working for their livelihood. These people are here because they live far better than they do at home, and the money they earn supports their loved ones.
After all, according to you, that's all they are capable of.
I never said that. They aren't here to self-acutualize. They're here to make a living.
Oh, and of course, there's the bonus that you can pay them chump change.
Chump change is relative. They can live like a king in Mexico on $100. per week.
Let's hope their countries never give them prosperity and opportunity, so that we never run out of maids and gardeners.
Now you're being silly.
That's racism, and no mistake.
Not in the least. We aren't talking about different races, we're talking about foreign citizens living in the US.
And don't try to shut me up by calling me a liberal.
Shut up, liberal.
Your plan to keep the low class low is very commendable, Nutri.
Again, I'm talking about foreigners on American soil. If they want a piece of the American dream, we HAVE procedures in place for them to become citizens.
DUH-UH! They are here doing work that American like you won't do, aren't they? Picking lettuce that people like you are too proud to soil their white hands doing.
Now THAT'S racist!!!! My white hands? What has my race got to do with anything? And how do you even know my race?
Basically, their situation is the following. Their own country is ruled by elitist despots who don't give a damn for the people. So they come here to to menial work that folk like you don't want to do for a bloody pittance.
So let's deport them back there and not give them the opportunity to earn that pittence that is worth ten times as much in Mexico as it is here. Know what they'll do? They'll come right back and go to work again. You're looking at the world through your own glasses. How many migrant farm workers have you known? I've know a number of them.
Result: they have NOTHING to look forward to but an eternal life of cleaning toilets and picking vegetables.
Most of the people in the world work for their livelihood. What's wrong with that? Again, if they want to partake in the American dream, let them do what they need to do to become citizens. No special rights. THAT's racism.

[PrezLeefun]

I would like to make a reccomendation.... WE NEED A RACE RELATIONS FORUM.

Its time. I think its time we just put one up and test it for month or so. We can put it as a sub-forum in Flame Wars.

Race is constantly coming up and maybe its time to give the subject its own spot.

[Maggie_T]

Toilets need to be cleaned.

Does it have to be by illegal aliens? I clean my own, thank you.

Lettuce needs to be picked. It's honorable work that a man can do to support his family.

So if it's so honorable, why won't you do it?

The poorest of Americans live better that 72% of the world's population. One farm laborer can support an entire family back in Mexico. The second largest source of income for Mexico is money being sent back to Mexico from workers in the US.

That does not excuse illegal immigration. Nor does it excuse that Joe Taxpayer shoul pay for Illegal Juan's healthcare, his kid's college tuition, etc. And yet that's what we are doing.

I didn't create that reality, I simply acknowledge it. In agrarian societies people are accustomed to working for their livelihood. These people are here because they live far better than they do at home, and the money they earn supports their loved ones.

What are you going on about agrarian socienties? Nutri, I wouldn't give a damn if these people were here LEGALLY. But they are not. And we are picking the tab for supporting illegal aliens and their anchor babies.

I never said that. They aren't here to self-acutualize. They're here to make a living.

They should be able to make that living in their OWN countries. I see no reason why the US of A should foot the bill for every 3rd world poverty-stricken individual.

Chump change is relative. They can live like a king in Mexico on $100. per week

Chump change is chump change. The fact that it means more money in their country does not make it less immoral to pay a worker chump change just because you can get away with it.

Now you're being silly.

Takes one to know one.

Not in the least. We aren't talking about different races, we're talking about foreign citizens living in the US.

Oh, I see you've been talking to MECHA, La Raza, and other assorted liberals. They are the only ones who would make that spurious distinction.

Shut up, liberal.

Your immaturity has been duly acknowledged.

Again, I'm talking about foreigners on American soil. If they want a piece of the American dream, we HAVE procedures in place for them to become citizens.

Yes, pity they overlook them and just enter the country illegally. If they want a piece of the American dream, they should get it LEGALLY. Otherwise, they are not entitled to it.

Now THAT'S racist!!!! My white hands? What has my race got to do with anything? And how do you even know my race?

Ah, yes. Now you are going to tell me you are black, with Native American, Hispanic, Asian, Hawaiian, and Samoan blood all happily mixed together. And then, you'll expect me to grovel apologetically for "offending a member of a minority."

Sorry, hon. I'm not falling for your racial tricks. I used the word "white hands" figuratively. As in 'delicate.' Nothing to do with race. But you immediately jumped in and screamed Racism! Nice try, Nutri. And most telling.

So let's deport them back there and not give them the opportunity to earn that pittence that is worth ten times as much in Mexico as it is here.

Good idea. They are Mexico's problem, not ours.

Know what they'll do? They'll come right back and go to work again.

And they will have people like you to thank for that.

You're looking at the world through your own glasses.

Unlike you, who looks at the world through "reality" glasses [sarcasm mode off]

How many migrant farm workers have you known? I've know a number of them.

And they all told you their sob stories, wept on your shoulder, and this made you an expert.

Most of the people in the world work for their livelihood. What's wrong with that?

Ask the welfare bums, not me. I've always earned my living.

Again, if they want to partake in the American dream, let them do what they need to do to become citizens. No special rights. THAT's racism.

Yes, but they DON'T DO ANYTHING to become citizens, Nurti. Heaven sakes, man (woman/whatever) what part of that don't you understand?

[Maggie_T]

I would like to make a reccomendation.... WE NEED A RACE RELATIONS FORUM.

Its time. I think its time we just put one up and test it for month or so. We can put it as a sub-forum in Flame Wars.

Race is constantly coming up and maybe its time to give the subject its own spot.

Prez, that won't be necessary. Race comes up only when liberals - or those who talk like them - run out of arguments. We're all used to that. Personally, I pay NO attention at people bleating about racism. Nobody in FC is a racist. But, again, it's what some people resort to when they run out of arguments, or the arguments they put out are shot down by others, or they want to twist the words of those who do not agree with them. Period.

[Rhino]

Mexican isn't a race.

[Nutrider99]

Race comes up only when liberals - or those who talk like them - run out of arguments.

That's racism, and no mistake. And don't try to shut me up by calling me a liberal. Even hard-core right-wingers like me know what racism is. Especially when it shoved right under our nose.
:roar::rotflmbo::D

[Nutrider99]

Does it have to be by illegal aliens?
It should be done by people who are legally in this country. Period. It does NOT have to be done by American citizens now, does it?
So if it's so honorable, why won't you do it?
Because 1. I don't have to, 2. Others will do it. It's the same reason I'm not a firefighter or a bulldozer operator. I'm an American citizen living in America. I have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
That does not excuse illegal immigration.
What have I ever said that makes you think I find illegal immigration acceptable?
Nor does it excuse that Joe Taxpayer shoul pay for Illegal Juan's healthcare, his kid's college tuition, etc.
Where have I ever said I support social welfare for illegals? I said to send the bills to their nation of residence.
What are you going on about agrarian socienties?
Because you don't seem to understand why these people are here.
Nutri, I wouldn't give a damn if these people were here LEGALLY. But they are not.
My entire position has been about legal residence, NOT citizenship, and NOT welfare.
And we are picking the tab for supporting illegal aliens and their anchor babies.
Which I have condemned.
They should be able to make that living in their OWN countries.
If they could made a good living there, why are they here?
I see no reason why the US of A should foot the bill for every 3rd world poverty-stricken individual.
Me neither, which is why I support a sensible guest worker program. Let them support themselves.
The fact that it means more money in their country does not make it less immoral to pay a worker chump change just because you can get away with it.
What is immoral about paying an agreed upon wage for an agreed upon service? Your liberalism is showing there, gal. Maybe the government should mandate a minimum wage for everyone in this country. Why stop there? Why don't we demand that Mexico pay an acceptable living wage? And El Salvadore? Capitalism is so immoral, anyway!!!
Yes, pity they overlook them and just enter the country illegally. If they want a piece of the American dream, they should get it LEGALLY.

What if all they want is to earn a wage with which they can support their families?
Sorry, hon. I'm not falling for your racial tricks.
Sorry hun, you brought up racism, not I.
And they will have people like you to thank for that.
You seem to have no concept of my argument. I am NOT FOR OPEN BORDERS!!!!!!
And they all told you their sob stories, wept on your shoulder, and this made you an expert.
Sob stories? You have no clue. These people are not crying about their situation. They risk their freedom and sometimes their lives to get here. They are not whiners. For the most part, they are hard working people trying to better themselves.
Ask the welfare bums, not me. I've always earned my living.
Same here. I've never even collected unemployment.
Yes, but they DON'T DO ANYTHING to become citizens, Nurti.
Which is why I've maintained that a proper guest WORKER program should have nothing to do with citizenship.

[Maggie_T]

*Y A W N*

Ok, Nutri. It's obvious that you say 'potato', I say 'potahto'. So let's call the whole thing off, shall we? I won't be bored to death going around in circles with you, and you can pretend that you won the debate.

Oh, and guess what? I am not mad at you, nor was I fighting with you. I was simply arguing with you, disagreeing with you. We have agreed in the past, so I guess that makes us both good people. :biggrin:

Anyhoo, seeing as how we're going to continue to disagree without getting anywhere, I propose we call it a day.

Next time, we might actually stumble upon an issue on which we both agree and we'll be on the same side.

Have a nice Thanksgiving, dear.

[johnwk]

Back to Huckabee.


One of Huckabee's major supporters is Tyson Chicken who employs illegal aliens in their chicken processing plants.

Just wait until out-of-staters who support the huckster find out what he really is all about! For example see: Mexican consulate deal dogs Huckabee campaign (http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=58430)


McCutchen charges that Huckabee made the deal with Mexico in order to attract illegal immigrants into the state to work in politically connected Arkansas businesses seeking to exploit low-cost immigrant workers.

"Huckabee is an open borders multi-culturalist who put the will and needs of Arkansas corporations before the needs of Arkansas citizens and taxpayers," McCutchen charged.

In his telephone interview with WND, Huckabee insisted his major goal in establishing a Mexican consulate office in Little Rock was to assist Arkansas companies in export-import business with Mexico.

Also see: HERE (http://arkansasfreedom.com/) for a good overview of what he was up to in Arkansas:


During Huckabee’s tenure he criminally violated the U.S. Constitution, Article 1, Section 10 and paraphrasing Section 10 states vividly that only the U.S. Congress can enter into compacts, treaties, agreements, etc. with foreign governments. Huckabee did so in October, 2003, bringing in a Mexican Consulate that is acting as a magnet for illegals, dispensing of illegal Matricula Consular cards for I.D. and acting as a clearing house for the dispersal of illegal Mexicans into the Arkansas workforce. Not one federal official has questioned Huckabee’s conduct in this matter and numbers have been contacted regarding such. He and Robert Trevino, former Ark. President of LULAC were instrumental in bringing LULAC’s national convention to Little Rock, with John Tyson, CEO of Tyson’s Foods making the principal address to the legal and illegal throngs. This was the occasion when Huckabee joked that Southern White boys might be a minority before long…much to the glee of the audience. He apologizes for, while denigrating our Southern heritage.


Huckabee is flim flam con artist just like Hillary___ playing to the wind to gain power which will then be used to further enslave Mary and Joe Sixpack! He is a traitor to the principles under which our constitutions, state and federal, were agreed to.

JWK

[TheIrishman]

I believe the best path to self-deportation is an excessive fine for any employer who hires illegals. Just looking at their SS card doesn't cut it--they must check with the SS admin about the owner of that SS number. A $100,000 fine and $50,000 for each aditional illegal alien employee, would probably cut the available jobs for illegals by about 85-90%. And hire 12-15,000 more investigators to find the illegals employed illegally. They would have little choice but return home. OH, don't forget to remove illegals from ALL welfare and free healthcare rolls!! THAT is for citizens down on their luck, not people who don't even belong in this country! And the next step is to completely close the border and hire more border guards; at least double what we have now. And it goes without saying, STOP persecuting the guards doing their job, like Ramos and Compean. Actually, Sutton, the prosecuting federal attorney, should be the one prosecuted.
Handled thusly, I think our illegal population would quickly drop, maybe even disintigrate.

Would this be expensive?? SURE! BUT I don't believe nearly so expensive as paying for them to be here and take advantage of our systems.

[Nutrider99]

Oh, and guess what? I am not mad at you, nor was I fighting with you. I was simply arguing with you, disagreeing with you. We have agreed in the past, so I guess that makes us both good people.
Why should we be mad at each other? We're both conservatives looking at this thing from different prospectives, but at least we agree to the premise that something has to be done. The democreeps would like to give foreign nations the right to vote in American elections, and believe that we should look toward the Europeans to interpret OUR Constitution.
Have a nice Thanksgiving, dear.
I did, thank you. I hope yours was wonderful.

[Nutrider99]

I believe the best path to self-deportation is an excessive fine for any employer who hires illegals.
If Raul sees you having a hard time cutting up a tree that has fallen in your yard, he helps you and you pay him, that makes you an employer. Should you have to pay a huge fine also? Many of these people are day laborers who work for cash. The reason that big businesses hire them is that the federal government has NEVER taken the issue seriously. End the sanctuary cities and enforce the law, and the rest will take care of itself.
Just looking at their SS card doesn't cut it--they must check with the SS admin about the owner of that SS number.
Why not just not give them SS numbers, and put them in prison if you catch them with one?
A $100,000 fine and $50,000 for each aditional illegal alien employee, would probably cut the available jobs for illegals by about 85-90%. And hire 12-15,000 more investigators to find the illegals employed illegally.
You're awfully free with other people's money there.
OH, don't forget to remove illegals from ALL welfare and free healthcare rolls!! THAT is for citizens down on their luck, not people who don't even belong in this country!
I'm in full agreement, but there IS a problem with that. We have a nation which has never taken the issue seriously, and we have actually ENCOURAGED illegal immigration. There are people who have been here for decades who were never documented, and children born here who never were either. It's a complicated issue which can't be solved with a cookie cutter answer. We must first seal the borders and stop the influx of people. Let Mexico pay for the social welfare of Mexican citizens.
And the next step is to completely close the border and hire more border guards;
No, that's the first step.
STOP persecuting the guards doing their job, like Ramos and Compean.
It was judged to be an illegal shooting, which was a bad decision. It shouldn't be a crime to shoot any drug dealer at any time for any reason.

[Elgalad]

I would like to make a reccomendation.... WE NEED A RACE RELATIONS FORUM.

Its time. I think its time we just put one up and test it for month or so. We can put it as a sub-forum in Flame Wars.

Race is constantly coming up and maybe its time to give the subject its own spot.

Mexican isn't a race.

May I suggest then, that we create an Illegal Alien forum. While it may or may not be about race (I tend to think it is not), some of us consider this issue one of the 'make or break' issues in the upcoming primaries and elections, of no less importance than the WoT and abortion.

And no offense to Maggie and Nutrider, but discussion of it here Is taking this thread way off on a tangent. Isn't this supposed to be about Huckabee?


-Elgalad

[johnwk]

May I suggest then, that we create an Illegal Alien forum. While it may or may not be about race (I tend to think it is not), some of us consider this issue one of the 'make or break' issues in the upcoming primaries and elections, of no less importance than the WoT and abortion.

And no offense to Maggie and Nutrider, but discussion of it here Is taking this thread way off on a tangent. Isn't this supposed to be about Huckabee?

-Elgalad


I was hoping it would be about Huckabee, including his actions with respect to foreign nationals who have invaded our borders, part of which I addressed in POST NO. 65 (http://www.freeconservatives.com/vb/showpost.php?p=606878&postcount=65) and appears to be sufficient evidence that his words are not in harmony with his actions.

I sincerely believe Hucakebee`s rise in the polls is due to uninformed and misinformed supporters who are falling for his gimmickry which creates an illusion of the real Mike, the flim-flam Huckabee.

I took the time to address other issues in :


POST NO. 1 (http://www.freeconservatives.com/vb/showpost.php?p=605179&postcount=1)

POST NO. 8 (http://www.freeconservatives.com/vb/showpost.php?p=605245&postcount=8)

POST NO. 10 (http://www.freeconservatives.com/vb/showpost.php?p=605355&postcount=10) , and,

POST NO. 13 (http://www.freeconservatives.com/vb/showpost.php?p=605509&postcount=13)

Huckabee has a love affair with those who have invaded our borders and flip flops his position on immigration more then Hillary! Heck, in 2001 he even supported legislation to repeal a law on the books denying drivers licenses to be issued to foreign nationals who invaded our borders. Now he says something different in order to con the uninformed, just like Hillary.

This man needs to be eliminated from the race___ he is a very, very dangerous con artist, and a threat to federalism, our Constitution’s plan.

Regards,

JWK

If we can make the majority of America’s population dependent upon a federal government check, [Huckabee’s support for H.R. 25’s family consumption allowance], we can then bribe them for their vote, keep ourselves in power, and keep the remaining portion of America’s population enslaved to pay the bills.

[Rhino]

May I suggest then, that we create an Illegal Alien forum. While it may or may not be about race (I tend to think it is not), some of us consider this issue one of the 'make or break' issues in the upcoming primaries and elections, of no less importance than the WoT and abortion.We had an immigration forum, but we kept getting cross posts because it is indeed a political issue. We had too many forums, so I eliminated some to simplify the site. Since it is a political issue, as you note, I'd prefer to keep it in the Politics forum.

[johnwk]

Who is Mike Huckabee? (http://opinionjournal.com/diary/?id=110010782)


Phyllis Schlafly, president of the national Eagle Forum, is even more blunt. "He destroyed the conservative movement in Arkansas, and left the Republican Party a shambles," she says. "Yet some of the same evangelicals who sold us on George W. Bush as a 'compassionate conservative' are now trying to sell us on Mike Huckabee."

The sad truth is, Huckabee has used the Bible to con evangelicals, just as he uses a fraudulent tax reform plan, the alleged fair tax, to sucker in those who correctly see a need for real tax reform.

This con artist needs to be exposed for the flim flam clown he really is!

JWK

If we can make the majority of America’s population dependent upon a monthly federal government check, [Huckabee’s supported family consumption allowance], we can then bribe them for their vote, keep ourselves in power, and keep the remaining portion of America’s population enslaved to pay the bills.

[Maggie_T]

And no offense to Maggie and Nutrider, but discussion of it here Is taking this thread way off on a tangent. Isn't this supposed to be about Huckabee?


-Elgalad

It is and we did. I did what I usually bitch about when other people do it. I apologize.

[johnwk]

HUCKABEE CAN’T RUN FROM HIS OPEN BORDER, ILLEGAL ALIEN LOVE AFFIAR!

Huckabee: proof of citizenship to vote and proof of legal residency to apply for state services is "race-baiting and demagoguery." See: JOSEPH PERKINS THE UNION-TRIBUNE, February 18, 2005 (http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20050218/news_lz1e18perkins.html)

Huckabee: vows to disobey new orders from Congress to start issuing more uniform driver's licenses and verify the citizenship or legal status of people getting them “If more than half of the governors agree we're not going down without a fight on this”. See: WASHINGTON (AP), usatoday, 5/10/2005 (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-05-10-id-rules_x.htm)

Huckabee: addressing Hispanic civil rights leaders, LULAC members, he said: "Pretty soon, Southern white guys like me may be in the minority" as the crowd roared in laughter. SEE: Arkansas News Bureau, Jun 30, 2005,Huckabee promotes 'open door' policy at LULAC convention (http://www.arkansasnews.com/archive/2005/06/30/News/323746.html)

Huckabee: in defending taxpayer financed prenatal care for foreign nationals, said:“I believe that because it's a human life, then by our law and by our constitution even that unborn child is an Arkansas citizen because he or she is going to be born in this state," See:Arkansas News Bureau, Feb 3, 2005, David Robinson Huckabee, callers go toe-to-toe on immigration (http://www.arkansasnews.com/archive/2005/02/03/News/316813.html)

Also see: Immigration bill un-Christian, anti-life, governor says (http://www.arkansasnews.com/archive/2005/01/28/News/316347.html)Friday, Jan 28, 2005,Arkansas News Bureau, Doug Thompson


This clown has more concern for foreign nationals than for America Citizens who are being bled to death by those who have invaded our borders, and yet, the GOP accepts this traitor as being a Republican? Of course he’s a Republican, and part of the bread and circus two party system!

How sad that Mary and Joe Sixpack, America’s sleeping giant, have allowed themselves to be made the personal tax slaves of the Washington Establishment, and its millions of political plum job holders. Will the sleeping giant ever awaken, or is it doomed to eternal apathy?


JWK

[DesertFox]

I knew all I needed to know about this dude when I heard his name. Nobody named Huckabee can possibly be serious.

[Elgalad]

Nobody named Huckabee can possibly be serious.

http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/9018/nell21mg7.jpg

"Chickapea! Chickapea!"


-E

[johnwk]

Chuck Baldwin says Christians Need To Beware Of Mike Huckabee (http://dhgrassrevolt.wordpress.com/2007/11/05/christians-need-to-beware-of-mike-huckabee-chuck-Baldwin/)
The article also quotes Ann Coulter:

Minton’s assertion is backed up by Daniel Larison at The American Conservative. He said, “Like his fellow presidential candidate [who recently dropped out of the race], Sen. Sam Brownback, Huckabee regards it as his Christian duty to help subvert and liberalize U.S. immigration laws. Together, they embrace the notion that fidelity to the Gospel requires privileging the interests of non-citizens over those of fellow citizens.”

Ann Coulter agrees: “On illegal immigration, Huckabee makes George Bush sound like Rep. Tom Tancredo (R-CO). Huckabee has compared illegal aliens to slaves brought here in chains from Africa, saying, ‘I think, frankly, the Lord is giving us a second chance to do better than we did before.’

JWK

[Maggie_T]

In that case, I've heard all I need to know about Huckabee.

[Venus de Smilo]

Odd how each time a 'pub candidate starts to move up, people show up to denigrate that candidate. Huckabee ain't my guy and never was, but it's interesting to witness this phenomenon over and over again.

[Lubbock]

Denigrating our own is Party-Specific, an activity that is practiced only by Republicans, and I'm sure that it's all bad.

[Aaron]

Odd how each time a 'pub candidate starts to move up, people show up to denigrate that candidate. Huckabee ain't my guy and never was, but it's interesting to witness this phenomenon over and over again.

You ain't seen me denigrate Fred Thompson, or many other people on this forum denigrate him.

[Venus de Smilo]

You ain't seen me denigrate Fred Thompson, or many other people on this forum denigrate him.
And what's your point? What does what you said have to do with what I was talking about in my post that you replied to?

[johnwk]

Odd how each time a 'pub candidate starts to move up, people show up to denigrate that candidate. Huckabee ain't my guy and never was, but it's interesting to witness this phenomenon over and over again.

Denigrate that candidate? Examining a candidate’s history, exchanging truth and facts about the candidate and commenting on those facts is denigrating a candidate? Give it a rest and smell the coffee my dear.

JWK

[PrezLeefun]

^^^^ You may want to keep in mind that Venus has been here much longer than you. How about not being sardonic? Its rude.

[Venus de Smilo]

Denigrate that candidate? Examining a candidate’s history, exchanging truth and facts about the candidate and commenting on those facts is denigrating a candidate? Give it a rest and smell the coffee my dear.

JWK

There's nothing wrong with that, but there's a pattern developing. Anytime a 'pub candidate starts moving up in the polls, we see an onslaught of denigration of that candidate in the media, which gets its talking points from the 'rat party. As for this forum, new members join, bash the candidate, and then retreat.

Bashing isn't examining the record. Examining a candidate's record includes looking at the pros and cons of the candidate so that s/he can be evaluated and appraised for a potential position of power and authority, but bashing is merely picking out some act or decision made by the candidate and spinning those into a real big deal without exposing the full factual basis for the candidate's act, judgment or decision under criticism.

I think you need a great deal more than a whiff of coffee to wake YOU up, honey. For some reason, I get a mental picture of an anvil falling on Wile E. Coyote's head as I say that.

[Rhino]

:lol:

[PrezLeefun]

Bravo Venus! And agreed.

[johnwk]

I think you need a great deal more than a whiff of coffee to wake YOU up, honey. For some reason,



Really? Well my dear, have a whiff of more of the coffee:

Huckabee assists in raid on State Treasury to help illegals! See:
Huckabee offered 'no-cost' deal for Mexican Consulate (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=58657)

Developer confirms role, legislator raps ex-governor for using taxpayer funds for illegals
Posted: November 13, 2007
1:00 a.m. Eastern



Burrow detailed to WND how he became involved in financing the Mexican Consulate office in Little Rock.

"In a trip to Mexico, Governor Huckabee had agreed with (then-Mexican President) Vicente Fox to work with the Mexican government to establish that facility in Arkansas in the capital city of Little Rock," Burrow said.

"But since there was really no government mechanism for the state to go and acquire that property and then to go and turn around and lease to the Mexican government, it had to be done by private enterprise," he continued.

"That's where I got involved," Burrow admitted. "That's what we do. We own a number of properties and we're a developer.

"So we agreed to do it at no profit," Burrow said. "And that's what I did. I acquired the property, renovated it for the Mexican government."

The entire project cost about $1.2 million, Burrow recalled.

JWK

[DesertFox]

Odd how each time a 'pub candidate starts to move up, people show up to denigrate that candidate.If disagreeing with a candidate on an issue is denigration, then you're right. If pointing out faults is denigration, then you're right.

[Venus de Smilo]

If disagreeing with a candidate on an issue is denigration, then you're right. If pointing out faults is denigration, then you're right.
I was talking about the sudden appearance of new members who seem to zero in on whichever 'pub candidate is on the rise, then disappear or hide out for awhile. They only bring criticism of the candidate and offer nothing positive or beneficial pertinent to 'pub goals. It's not an evaluation, it's just bashing. I have my suspicions.............

[johnwk]

Huckabee gets exposed, maybe denigrated, again!

Huckabee's Misguided "Compassion", by Don Feder (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=AFA09DDD-3E13-41CC-ACA3-0F20B0C1720D)

Bottom line, Huckabee would ignore federalism, our Constitution's plan, so, let us look at another candidate with reference to federalism.

Fred Thompson and federalism, our Constitution's plan

.
If an itemized list were created to identify actions of Congress which directly and indirectly inflict misery upon Mary and Joe Sixpack living in say Michigan, high on that list would be the subjugation of federalism by the leaders of the Republican and Democrat parties.

Fred Thompson appears to have correctly identified this primary cause of the people`s suffering and is zeroing in, with both guns blazing, on this very important issue which the Washington Establishment and the leaders of our two major political parties obviously consider to be off limits in political campaign discussions.

And just what is meant by federalism, our Constitution`s plan? Federalist Paper No. 45 explains it this way:


The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce; with which last the power of taxation will, for the most part, be connected.


The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State. The operations of the federal government will be most extensive and important in times of war and danger; those of the State governments, in times of peace and security.

So, federalism, for the purposes of this discussion, is a constitutionally defined separation of powers ___ those which have been enumerated and delegated to Congress by the people of the various states, and, those which have been retained by the various States and the People therein.

But why is an open and informative discussion concerning the subjugation of federalism by Congress considered to be off limits by our Republican and Democrat Party leaders? Because the leaders of each party personally benefit tremendously by subjugating federalism and seizing unauthorized power.

For example, right now we have approximately 5000 political plum job holders at the federal department of education which have outrageous salaries, their own top of the shelf health care plan, and, they get a very, very generous retirement pension plan for administering and redistributing money for a function not authorized by our written federal Constitution, but which Mary and Joe Sixpack are taxed to finance. Keep in mind the people of each state by their state Constitution have established their own system of public schools, and have authorized state taxes, not federal taxation, to fund those systems!

So why do we have 5000 federal employees living quite comfortably on the federal dole who are meddling in a state authorized function? In return for living so well, these federal political plum job holders double as Congress`s foot soldieries during federal election time to help prop up the Washington Establishment`s Empire.

But just think, by closing down the parasitic Federal Department of Education, more appropriately referred to by Michelle Malkin as The Department of Embezzlement (http://www.jewishworldreview.com/michelle/malkin053001.asp), and repealing the un-constitutional No Child [“dime“] Left Behind Act, and getting rid of 5000 federal political plum jobs, Mary and Joe, as federal taxpayers, would have their federal taxes reduced by approximately $67 BILLION, which was America’s entire federal budget in 1952! Just think, if this amount would be returned to the States by the rule of apportionment, Michigan would receive a very generous $26 MILLION which I‘m sure would come in handy for the people of Michigan to help finance Michigan’s public education system which they established by their State Constitution.

So, when Fred Thompson talks about a return to federalism, a subject off limits by the Washington Establishment, what Fred is really talking about is removing the shackles of slavery from Mary and Joe Sixpack who have been made the personal tax slaves for the Washington Establishment and its millions of federal political plum job holders. But let us take a closer look at the slavery imposed upon Mary and Joe. For those who do not think they have been made a tax slave by the Washington Establishment and its millions of political plum job holders, maybe this will get your attention.

FEDERAL EMPLOYEE OVERVIEW (http://federaljobs.net/)


Are you considering a government job? The federal government employs more than 2,715,000 workers and hires hundreds of thousands each year to replace civil service workers that transfer to other federal government jobs, retire, or stop working for other reasons. Average annual salary for full-time federal government jobs exceeds $67,000.

The U.S. Government is the largest employer in the United States, hiring about 2.0 percent of the nation's civilian work force. Federal government jobs can be found in every state and large metropolitan area, including overseas in over 200 countries.

On the other hand, Mary and Joe Sixpack’s average annual wage amounts to approximately $40-45 K

In addition, here are other federal employee ``benefits``:

Life insurance plan___ Mary and Joe Sixpack get to pay 1/3 of a government workers federal life insurance plan.

Federal Employees Dental & Vision Program is a full coverage plan and federal employees get to use pre-tax dollars to pay for their vision and dental premiums while Mary and Joe are forced to use after taxed dollars to fund their Dental & Vision plan.

Under the federal employee retirement system, there is a tax-deferred savings plan known as the ``Thrift Savings Plan``. Under this plan, federal workers may contribute up to 10% of their salaries to the plan, with Mary and Joe Sixpack being taxed to match up to 5% of a federal employee`s contribution.


Also under the Civilian Service Retirement System a federal employee contributes 7% of their paycheck to retirement while Mary and Joe Sixpack are forced to match that 7 % out of their paychecks.

And, with reference to health insurance, which is in addition to the above mentioned dental and vision plan, see Federal Employees to See Moderate Rise in Health Insurance Premiums (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/13/AR2007091301441.html)


Health insurance premiums for federal employees and retirees will increase by an average of 2.1 percent next year, the Office of Personnel Management announced this afternoon.
<SNIP>
The federal program will offer 283 plans next year and will provide insurance coverage to about 8 million Americans: civil service and postal workers, retirees, and family members. The government picks up about 70 percent of premium costs in its role as employer.

What the article meant to state is, Mary and Joe Sixpack, who can barely meet their own health care needs, get to pick up about 70 percent of the premium costs to provide health care to our nation’s privileged class ___ federal employees and their families. This is not meant to suggest that all federal employees and functions are illegitimate, but, those which are legitimate as identified by our written Constitution ``are few and defined``

Fred Thompson is on target when talking about a return to federalism. The sad truth is, our federal government personifies a living creature, a predator: it grows, it multiplies, it protects itself, it feeds on those it can defeat, and does everything to expand and flourish, even at the expense of enslaving a nation`s entire population with a national debt which exceeds $50 Trillion (http://www.ncpa.org/iss/bud/2003/pd103003a.html). Indeed, the servant has become the master over those who have created a servant, and the new servant pays tribute to a gangster government which ignores our most basic law ___ our constitutions, state and federal.

Fred Thompson may have hit upon something! Certainly, if our founders were confronted with today’s situation they would more than likely have said: “He has erected a multitude of new offices (http://www.firstgov.gov/Agencies/Federal/All_Agencies/index.shtml) , and sent hither swarms of officers, to harass our people, and eat out their substance” ___Declaration of Independence

Now tell me my dear, is that coffee begining to smell good?

Regards,

JWK

If we can make the majority of America’s population dependent upon a federal government check, [H.R.25‘s family consumption allowance], we can then bribe them for their vote, maintain our positions of power and keep the remaining portion of America’s population enslaved to pay the bills