Christian Left vs Secular Left

[DesertFox]

Mark Steyn
Orange County Register
5 Jan 08

Confronted by Preacher Huckabee standing astride the Iowa caucuses, smirking, "Are you feelin' Hucky, punk?", many of my conservative pals are inclined to respond, "Shoot me now."

But, if that seems a little dramatic, let's try and rustle up an alternative.

In response to the evangelical tide from the west, New Hampshire primary voters have figured, "Any old crusty, cranky, craggy coot in a storm," and re-embraced John McCain. After all, Granite State conservatism is not known for its religious fervor: it prefers small government, low taxes, minimal regulation, the freedom to be left alone by the state. So they're voting for a guy who opposed the Bush tax cuts, and imposed on the nation the most explicit restriction in political speech in years. Better yet, after a freezing first week of January and the snowiest December in a century, New Hampshire conservatives are goo-goo for a fellow who also believes the scariest of global-warming scenarios and all the big-government solutions necessary to avert them.

Well, OK, maybe we can rustle up an alternative to the alternative.

More (http://www.ocregister.com/opinion/huckabee-huck-guy-1953999-put-afford)

[Neil Peart]

Christian left? Isn't that an oxymoron?

[HomeschoolrsRUs]

Spot on!

From the article:
"In the long run, the relativist mush peddled in our grade schools is a national security threat. But, even in the short term, it's a form of child abuse that cuts off America's next generation from the glories of their inheritance.

Where I part company with Huck's supporters is in believing he's any kind of solution. He's friendlier to the teachers' unions than any other so-called "cultural conservative" – which is why in New Hampshire he's the first Republican to be endorsed by the NEA.* His health care pitch is Attack Of The Fifty Foot Nanny, beginning with his nationwide smoking ban. This is, as Jonah Goldberg put it, compassionate conservatism on steroids – big paternalistic government that can only enervate even further "our culture."

*That ALONE is enough to stop me from voting for him, even if he gets the nomination.

[dajoga]

Christian left? Isn't that an oxymoron?

Yup! The only dif between a christian left and secular left is one goes to church occasionally.

[PrezLeefun]

The Christian Left is a political sell-out group. They have given into the mindwashing of SP facists.

[DesertFox]

Yep. They were CINOs to begin with.

[Timberwolf]

"This is going to be a long election year."

No kidding, Mr. Steyn...

[PrezLeefun]

Yep. They were CINOs to begin with.

I would not go that far.

[Timberwolf]

I would...the left supports abortion, special rights for homosexuals based on what they do with their genitals, coercion to support those too lazy to work (not those who can't work or who are having trouble finding work...those able bodied people who are too lazy to make the effort), nanny state government, abolition of the 2nd amendment, etc etc

They are, therefore, Christians In Name Only. Christ never gave any reason for anyone who follows Him to be a leftist.

[PrezLeefun]

^^^^ All those things dont necessarily reflect every single person who identifies themselves as being a part of the Christian left. There are plenty who are some of those things and against other issues, but still say they are liberal.

And lets be perfectly clear Christian doesn't equal republican or right on the political spectrum.
Christian equals believing Jesus is God and died for our sins, and rose again as proof of our everlasting life with him in heaven.

Being left is not being perfect (far from it) but it doesnt mean a person is no longer a Christian in their heart.

[Timberwolf]

Left = abortion supportGod = abhorring the hand which spills innocent blood
Left = special rights for homosexualsGod = He who lies with a man as he would a woman SHALL be put to death
Left = nanny state governmentGod = the PERSON helping his neighbor (not abdicating that responsibility to the government)
Left = support of illegal immigrationGod = driving them from your country
Left = support of the welfare stateGod = if a man shall not work, a man shall not eat
One doesn't HAVE to be a republican if one is a Christian...but, according to GOD, ya can't be on the left if you're gonna follow His Son (who is doing His FATHER'S bidding).

Being on the right is being imperfect...being on the left is completely disregarding what God/Christ instruct/demand of us.

[PrezLeefun]

Are you now saying that Christians are suddenly without sin?

[Timberwolf]

If that's what you think, you're not paying attention to WHAT I'm saying. READ what I've posted...not what you want to read into it.

[PrezLeefun]

I read it. I know what you are saying, but I think it borders on very dangerous ground.

All Christians sin, many will support sin because it is very much a part of our sin nature. But does not make them a CINO.

[Timberwolf]

You might want to read what Paul has to say about that in the book of Romans (chapter 6).

You're saying it is OK to embrace sinful behavior via your vote, as long as you don't behave that way yourself.

I'm saying, you don't behave that way and you don't vote for those who do.

[PrezLeefun]

I did not say that and you know I did not say that. I am saying just because some people do that it doesnt mean they are no longer Christians..... and that is all I said.

I did not and would not say its ok.

[irknow1]

"for God so loved the world that He gave His
only begotton Son, that whosoever believeth
on Him should not perrish but have everlasting
life......."

"if you love Me, you will keep My commandments"

"verily I say unto you, that lest a man be born again
he shall in no way see the Kingdom of Heaven...."

the three doctrins given to mankind by the Lord Jesus
Christ are:

baptism
footwashing
communion

any other teachings by man are "traditions" and
not the Doctrine of God.......

there is the Great Commandment
"go ye forth to all nations.................."

All this to say:

A true christian is probably neither left or right,
Democrat or Republican and shouldn't be.
A true christian puts GOD FIRST in ALL THINGS
and if he does so...............he will be able to
choose who to support in an election............

There are fundamental acts THAT CANNOT BE
IGNORED by a true christian and CANNOT BE
SUPPORTED by a true christian and the Word
of God is quite specific in that. Each person
seeking to serve God and become a true christian
and an heir to the kingdom must search the Word
of God for themselves and determine the
"God-way".

A true christian cannot support a politician who
they AGREE WITH on 40% or 55% or 80% of
the issues and don't care for the politician's views
on the remaining issues. If there is an ISSUE that
is CONTRARY TO THE WORD OF GOD then a true
christian CANNOT SUPPORT a politician who supports
that issue. This makes it VERY HARD for a true christian
to become involved in the election process in our Nation
because SO VERY FEW politicians ARE TRUE CHRISTIANS.

.......it's the good and bad fruit from the same tree story
told by Jesus................the tree cannot produce both good
and bad fruit.............as well, man cannot serve two masters,
either he will love the one and hate the other or he will hate
the one and love the other..............

by the way: christians are far from without sin, although they
(if they are truly saved) ARE DEAD TO SIN. Paul speeks of this
quite a lot in his writings and you can easily read his descriptions
concerning christians and sin.

God bless you all..................

(these are my thoughts only.....grain of salt.....)

I.R. Know 1

[Timberwolf]

Prez, you said:many will support sin because it is very much a part of our sin nature.
To which I replied: You're saying it is OK to embrace sinful behavior via your vote, as long as you don't behave that way yourself.
I don't see any difference, except I qualified the actions a bit differently.

[Timberwolf]

I did not say that and you know I did not say that. I am saying just because some people do that it doesnt mean they are no longer Christians..... and that is all I said.
YES, it does. Just because one SAYS they are Christian doesn't MEAN they are.

Actions speak FAR louder than words. Basically you're saying it's OK to worship Satan as long as ya SAY you're a Christian.

One's actions have to be consistent with one's words...otherwise, it's called hypocrisy.

[PrezLeefun]

You know that is not what I said. You also know that is a cruel and simplistic way to twist my words.

[Wyatt_Junker]

Are you now saying that Christians are suddenly without sin?


Obviously not.

I think the difference is, however, what are some "christians" promoting? Its one thing to sin, but quite another to champion that sin, market that sin and legislate that sin. Even in some cases, applaud sin, honor sin, cherish sin. For abortion advocates, their marches resemble hypocondriacal mania, with the same religious fervor as pentacostals. And if "christians" walk in those marches, their 'faith'(whatever they call it) should, indeed, be held circumspectly.

I sin, you sin, everyone sins. But is sin something we admire? For leftist "christians" who approve abortion, believe in it, vote for it, that is the contradiction. And in that sense, it belies their claims about who they say they are. Not the sin itself, but the attitude towards the sin.

Sin is nearly unavoidable. Our attitude towards it, is not.

And in that sense, the more one defines themself on the left with all of their inventory of unbiblical platforms, the more one moves away from Christ. There is an incompatibility. Its not to say that people on the left can't be Christian. Its just means that that is unusual and difficult to remain a Christian as one defines their faith as per the Bible and its claims.

And conversely, not all people on the right are Christians who say they are either. However, their platforms are more in line with essential and non-essential Christianity, the more one moves to the right.

God does not coerce. Does not force Himself upon us. Big government, of the liberal left variety, does. More and moreso. As we move right, we move towards liberty, freedom, free will, uncoercion, charity, good works and hard work. As we move left we move towards dependency, coercion, laziness, no works, slavery, stupidity, where good is called 'evil' and evil is called 'good'.

That's just how it works, politically and theologically.

[Timberwolf]

Amen, Wyatt. Right on the money.

[PrezLeefun]

Obviously not.

I think the difference is, however, what are some "christians" promoting? Its one thing to sin, but quite another to champion that sin, market that sin and legislate that sin. Even in some cases, applaud sin, honor sin, cherish sin. For abortion advocates, their marches resemble hypocondriacal mania, with the same religious fervor as pentacostals. And if "christians" walk in those marches, their 'faith'(whatever they call it) should, indeed, be held circumspectly.

I sin, you sin, everyone sins. But is sin something we admire? For leftist "christians" who approve abortion, believe in it, vote for it, that is the contradiction. And in that sense, it belies their claims about who they say they are. Not the sin itself, but the attitude towards the sin.

Sin is nearly unavoidable. Our attitude towards it, is not.

And in that sense, the more one defines themself on the left with all of their inventory of unbiblical platforms, the more one moves away from Christ. There is an incompatibility. Its not to say that people on the left can't be Christian. Its just means that that is unusual and difficult to remain a Christian as one defines their faith as per the Bible and its claims.

And conversely, not all people on the right are Christians who say they are either. However, their platforms are more in line with essential and non-essential Christianity, the more one moves to the right.

God does not coerce. Does not force Himself upon us. Big government, of the liberal left variety, does. More and moreso. As we move right, we move towards liberty, freedom, free will, uncoercion, charity, good works and hard work. As we move left we move towards dependency, coercion, laziness, no works, slavery, stupidity, where good is called 'evil' and evil is called 'good'.

That's just how it works, politically and theologically.


I agree with that. I never said I disagreed. And what I highlighted in red is the point I was trying to make.

[Maggie_T]

Confronted by Preacher Huckabee standing astride the Iowa caucuses, smirking, "Are you feelin' Hucky, punk?", many of my conservative pals are inclined to respond, "Shoot me now."


And then, there's those of us who say "Shoot HIM now." http://foolstown.com/sm/shy.gif


Why should I shoot myself? I'm not the one selling conservatism down the river. Shoot the problem, not me.

[Timberwolf]

You know that is not what I said. You also know that is a cruel and simplistic way to twist my words.
HOW so? Because I took it to such an extreme to make a point?

You are saying, "a Christian can support a sinful position in a political party" (that is how I read what you said). That is NOT Christian behavior. That is hypocrisy. Christians do their very best to SHUN sin...to avoid it. Now then, does that mean the Republicans are saints and the Demunists are all hell-bound sinners? Not at all. The Pubs are far closer to the Christian world view, but by no means a perfect fit.

btw - if God hates anything/one it's hypocrisy/hypocrites. Jesus busted some Pharisitical butt because of their hypocrisy. The passage from Matthew 7.."judge not lest ye be judged..." is about hypocrisy, not a prohibition against judging others.

So, if one is a member of the "christian" left, I'd have to venture a guess that the person was never really a Christian at all...or a VERY unique individual.

[Maggie_T]

Don't worry about this "Change You Can Believe In" shtick. Obama doesn't believe in it, and neither should you. He's a fresh face on the same-old-same-old – which is the only change Democrats are looking for.


:thumb:



This is the Huckabee advantage. On stage, he's quick-witted and thinks on his feet. He's not paralyzed by consultants and trimmers and triangulators. Put him in a presidential debate, and he'll have sharper ripostes and funnier throwaways and more plausible self-deprecating quips than anyone on the other side. He'll be a great campaigner. The problems begin when he stops campaigning and starts governing.



ABSO-BLOODY-LUTELY!!! :claps:

Steyn nails it. Campaign promises are one thing. It's another thing - one rarely achieved - when the candidate gets power and actually carries out his/her promises.



Where I part company with Huck's supporters is in believing he's any kind of solution. He's friendlier to the teachers' unions than any other so-called "cultural conservative" – which is why in New Hampshire he's the first Republican to be endorsed by the NEA. His health care pitch is Attack Of The Fifty Foot Nanny, beginning with his nationwide smoking ban. This is, as Jonah Goldberg put it, compassionate conservatism on steroids – big paternalistic government that can only enervate even further "our culture."


Anyone whom the NEA supports can rarely be considered a genuine conservative. Period.


So, Iowa chose to reward, on the Democrat side, a proponent of the conventional secular left, and, on the Republican side, a proponent of a new Christian left. If that's the choice, this is going to be a long election year.


No shit. :sulk:

[dajoga]

Spot on!

From the article:
"In the long run, the relativist mush peddled in our grade schools is a national security threat. But, even in the short term, it's a form of child abuse that cuts off America's next generation from the glories of their inheritance.

Where I part company with Huck's supporters is in believing he's any kind of solution. He's friendlier to the teachers' unions than any other so-called "cultural conservative" – which is why in New Hampshire he's the first Republican to be endorsed by the NEA.* His health care pitch is Attack Of The Fifty Foot Nanny, beginning with his nationwide smoking ban. This is, as Jonah Goldberg put it, compassionate conservatism on steroids – big paternalistic government that can only enervate even further "our culture."

*That ALONE is enough to stop me from voting for him, even if he gets the nomination.

So if Mike gets the nomination, you'll vote for the 'rat or not vote?

[Maggie_T]

Its not to say that people on the left can't be Christian.


I agree with that. I never said I disagreed. And what I highlighted in red is the point I was trying to make.

Prez, can't help agreeing with Wofl on this one.

How could a person call him/herself a Christian if he/she condones most of everything the God of Christianity condemns?

God condemns abortion (if memory serves, He said "Go forth and multiply, populate the earth," or words to that effect; that is hardly compatible with abortion). Those who call themselves Christians, but vote for those who support abortion, obviously do not.

God condemns homosexuality. If one votes for those who want to legislate homosexuality as "an alternative way of life," with all the rights of the "other" alternative, one is going against God's teachings. What kind of a Christian is that?

It's not enough to say "I believe in God, I am a Christian." You must also walk the walk. And those who vote for demunists - the supporters of everything the Christian God condemns, including banning Christainity - only talk the talk.

Trust me, I know something about this. Sadly, the Catholic Church is plagued with priests and parishioners who believe that being a Christian is merely something to do with helping the poor. That's all they believe in. But they are all for illegal immigration, which goes against the law of the land. And you know what Jesus thought of that. He said it very clearly "Render unto Ceasar what belongs to Ceasar, and to God what belongs to God." I don't know what you were taught that that means. I was taught that when He said that, Jesus meant that humans should respect human laws, just as they should respect the laws of God (on which, BTW, human laws are extensively based).

I cannot say I am not a racist if I refuse to befriend people based on the color of their skin. I cannot say I am not a bigot if I go about deriding and condemning religions other than my own. I cannot say I am tolerant and then go and condemn all views other than my own.

Well, in that same way, a person cannot call him/herself a Christian and then go and support everything condemned by our Christian God.

Does that mean that I, as a Christian, am free of sin? Of course not. But at least, I don't go about supporting everything that is considered a sin by my religion.

A bit of consistency is all we ask for, Prez. But there are those who will have their cake and eat it, too.

You can't have it both ways, Prez. If you do, you will invariably betray one of the ways.

[namvet527]

Are you now saying that Christians are suddenly without sin?

HE NEVER SAID THAT.

You are now sounding like a Christian hating LIBERAL misrepresenting what a REAL CONSERVATIVE just said.

Just cuz us Christians TRY to live by Christian principles, unlike your LIBERAL CINO friends, does not mean we don't fail. We do not SUPPORT left wing demonic immoral values.

Of course we are not saved by works. But works as a result of our salvation give witness to our salvation.

That is why Jesus died on the cross AND ROSE from the dead.

If liberals are Christians they are BACK SLIDEN Christians. They do not know what Jesus & the Bible teaches.

[Eagle1]

And lets be perfectly clear Christian doesn't equal republican or right on the political spectrum.
Christian equals believing Jesus is God and died for our sins, and rose again as proof of our everlasting life with him in heaven.

I cannot find a single leftist principle supported by Christianity.
There is the obvious abortion. Then there are more subtle things such as charity. It means giving freely out of love for thy neighbor, not taking someones earnings to give to someone who refuses to work. The obvious family values. And also forgiveness, that does not negate the punishment, but goes along side it.
I suppose you could believe in Jesus and support leftist ideas, but why have a fundamental belief that is in contrast with all your actions?

[TeenageRepublican]

Christian Left vs Secular Left


Must I choose one? This is like trying to choose between going in to public bathroom with Larry Craig or trying to inhale next to Michael Moore.

[Longhorn_Platinum]

PrezLeefun:
You know that is not what I said. You also know that is a cruel and simplistic way to twist my words.

:unsmile: Like when you accused Timberwolf of claiming that conservative Christians are perfect, even though he specifically said just the opposite?

[The_Elucidator]

I will give ya'll a prime example of the paradox that is politics! In the military I had many very close Black friends that attended the same church that I did or in some cases other solid denominational churches. All shared the same bible based beliefs that I did. But when it came to politics, EVERY single one of them voted Democrat. My grandfather, who is a God fearing christian man and FDR Democrat has voted Democrat since the 20's. So I agree with Prez that christian doesn't equal Republican.

[PrezLeefun]

:unsmile: Like when you accused Timberwolf of claiming that conservative Christians are perfect, even though he specifically said just the opposite?

I did not accuse him. I asked him.


Furthermore there seems to be a huge misunderstanding that I think there are no problems with being a Christian leftist. I think there are huge problems and very serious contradictions with it. I only meant to say that one can be a Christian and identify themselves as liberal.

I didnt say it was right.
I dont think it is right.

I never said it was ok.
I dont think it is ok.

I never said it wasn't hypocritical.
I do think it is.

I just dont think it is completely fair to make a judgement on someone's personal relationship with God. It is up to Him to decide if a person is true to him in their heart. I as a human cannot possibly know that for sure when a person claims to share the same religious beliefs as myself.

[HomeschoolrsRUs]

So if Mike gets the nomination, you'll vote for the 'rat or not vote?

I will register my "None of the Above" vote at my local voting booth. At least, that's the plan for now. I am sick and tired of voting AGAINST someone, I want to be able to vote FOR the best representative of me, this party, it's principles and platform.

[Longhorn_Platinum]

PrezLeefun:
Are you now saying that Christians are suddenly without sin?

:unsmile: He had already said exactly the opposite, so the question was unnecessary. It was an attempt to twist his words.

[PrezLeefun]

No it wasn't LP.

[Wyatt_Junker]

I will give ya'll a prime example of the paradox that is politics! In the military I had many very close Black friends that attended the same church that I did or in some cases other solid denominational churches. All shared the same bible based beliefs that I did. But when it came to politics, EVERY single one of them voted Democrat. My grandfather, who is a God fearing christian man and FDR Democrat has voted Democrat since the 20's. So I agree with Prez that christian doesn't equal Republican.

Yes, but...

...the democrats of the 20's - 60's is not anything remotely aligned to today's democrats.

I would even think that in some of those eras you could definitely be a democrat and Christian in good conscience. Today, not so much.

As far as black communities commitment to 'crats(more than 90%) I would say that it is a moral sin. One that they've accepted and grown used to, then allowed to harden over like a callous. Christians can certainly fall into strongholds. Its not a noble trait, but its part of being human. 90% 'crat voting is definitely not biblical in terms of what the 'crat platforms are.