Can a bulldog kick a cougar's ass?

[DesertFox]

When Bob Daugherty pulled into the driveway of his La Pine home Tuesday morning, he saw something he won’t soon forget.

A 7-foot, 115-pound cougar had jumped the fence into his backyard.

As he watched from the driveway, the big cat swiped at his female Staffordshire terrier, Sage.

His other dog, a male American bulldog named Riley, raced to Sage’s defense, Daugherty said. Riley faced down the cougar, driving it back a few steps before the big cat turned tail and climbed a tree in the yard.

Daugherty said he then went into the yard, grabbed both of his dogs and hustled them into the house. He also intercepted his oldest daughter, who had started toward the dogs in the yard.

Once inside, at about 9:45 a.m., he called 911.

The cougar stayed in the tree until after a Deschutes County sheriff’s deputy arrived

More (http://www.bendbulletin.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080123/NEWS0107/801230388/1001&nav_category=)

[DesertFox]

Guess the cougar thought so.

[DeclinetoState]

More from the article:

ODFW also believes the cougar population in the state is healthy. Roughly 5,000 cougars are estimated to live in Oregon, while the department’s management plan calls for a minimum of 3,000, according to the department’s Web site.

Several ranchers and wildlife groups, however, filed a lawsuit Tuesday in federal court in Portland to block Wildlife Services from culling Oregon’s cougar population on ODFW’s behalf, according to a news release from the Cascadia Wildlands Project, one of the plaintiffs.
I can understand why the "wildlife groups" (probably animal-rights activists) oppose any efforts to reduce the cougar population, but why are the ranchers opposed as well?

Enlighten me.

:confused:

[HomeschoolrsRUs]

For the record, we own an American Bulldog too, :D. He's named after the famous rodeo bull, Bodacious:

[Elgalad]

Hey, I like Cats!
http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/1660/bulldogwxa9.jpg
But next time, please bring ketchup..


-Elgalad

[HomeschoolrsRUs]

Pssst ... El .... that's a BRITISH bulldog, :smirky:

[S-T]

I know a little 14 pound Min Pin mix that probably thinks he could whup on a cougar.

[Venus de Smilo]

My JRT thinks she's a bull mastiff. She'll take on anything, which scares me.

But I'm with Decline. What's up with the ranchers supporting not culling the cougar population? What happened to the ranchers' Three S Creed (shoot, shovel and shutup)?

[DesertFox]

I dunno.

[DoctorDoom]

A bulldog probably wouldn't fare well with a cougar, but the cat is unaccustomed to prey that fights back. It was probably confused. "WTF is THAT thing? Shee-it! If it's that crazy, I ain't gonna screw with it. Where's the tree?"

[Kathy30]

Contrary to popular belief, cougars can count. One - two, one of me, backside unprotected, where's the tree?

[Rhino]

Nah. The cougar just fell for the media hype about "pit bulls".

[HomeschoolrsRUs]

Nah. The cougar just fell for the media hype about "pit bulls".

:eek: It wasn't a "pit bull"!!!! (We American Bulldog owners have enough trouble with people jumping to conclusions about the breed, without them being called the wrong breed! :smirky:)

[Rhino]

Dat's why I put it in quotes, Homes. There is no "pit bull" breed. What most consider to be pit bulls include several different breeds, and American Bulldogs are often included. But since there is no standard definition, the breeds that are included vary widely with every different source you look at. I had this debate at another site recently.

[Air Force Guy]

A bulldog probably wouldn't fare well with a cougar, but the cat is unaccustomed to prey that fights back. It was probably confused. "WTF is THAT thing? Shee-it! If it's that crazy, I ain't gonna screw with it. Where's the tree?"Exactly what I was thinking. "Time to regroup and evaluate what just happened here," sez the Coug to himself.

Seen the claws on a cougar? Not that a scrappy bulldog couldn't hold it's own for a while but a decent-sized cougar that was intent on having it's way...

Bulldog dies or runs off 8 of 10 times, at least.

Thanks to God that the cougar didn't want the snack bad enough.

[HomeschoolrsRUs]

:icon126: Oops, :smirky: (In my best Roseanne Roseannadana Voice ...) Nevermind! :biggrin:

[Elgalad]

Pssst ... El .... that's a BRITISH bulldog, :smirky:

Hey, I'm third-generation!

http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/995/bulldogwxa9vb6.jpg
I coulda asked fer Worchestershire, ya know..

But "Cat-sup" got a better ring to it. And dat right there prove I ain't no immygrunt.


-E

[DesertFox]

In an actual fight the bulldog would have no chance of surviving. He would leave his marks, however.

[Nutrider99]

Cougars are animals of opportunity that prefer to strike from behind. They don't like a fair fight and will not challenge a bigger opponent. That's why opening your jacket and making yourself look bigger is an appropriate defense against them. Cougars prefer to attack from above and behind and go for the neck immediately. The cougar would pounce on the bulldog from behind and kill it quickly, but would not risk injury by a frontal attack. Better to retreat and find easier prey. They are closely related to jaguars and behave in similar fashion.

A number of years ago in Michigan a pregnant woman went in to check on the equipment that monitored a jaguar's environment at the John Ball Park zoo. The jaguar, Sasha, had squeezed through a gap in her enclosure and was up on top of some equipment, soaking up the heat. It jumped the woman from behind, severing both jugglar veins and one carotid artery. It shook and dragged the terrified woman around the room before she bled out. She and her baby both died on the scene. The animal was later transferred to a wildlife refuge in California. The woman was the daughter of one of my mother's closest friends, and was a third cousin (or something like that).
Link (http://blog.mlive.com/chronicle/2007/12/attack_in_1985_led_to_safety_r.html)

[PrezLeefun]

That cat thought... "This totally is not worth the effort....time for a nap."

[Air Force Guy]

Cougars are animals of opportunity that prefer to strike from behind. They don't like a fair fight and will not challenge a bigger opponent. That's why opening your jacket and making yourself look bigger is an appropriate defense against them. Cougars prefer to attack from above and behind and go for the neck immediately. The cougar would pounce on the bulldog from behind and kill it quickly, but would not risk injury by a frontal attack. Better to retreat and find easier prey. They are closely related to jaguars and behave in similar fashion.

A number of years ago in Michigan a pregnant woman went in to check on the equipment that monitored a jaguar's environment at the John Ball Park zoo. The jaguar, Sasha, had squeezed through a gap in her enclosure and was up on top of some equipment, soaking up the heat. It jumped the woman from behind, severing both jugglar veins and one carotid artery. It shook and dragged the terrified woman around the room before she bled out. She and her baby both died on the scene. The animal was later transferred to a wildlife refuge in California. The woman was the daughter of one of my mother's closest friends, and was a third cousin (or something like that).
Link (http://blog.mlive.com/chronicle/2007/12/attack_in_1985_led_to_safety_r.html)Damn! She never saw that coming! There must've been some real soul searching on whether or not to euthanize the Jag...at least from the family's viewpoint.

[Kathy30]

A pit bull is not a bulldog. It is the name of a specific breed. The name has since been changed to American Staffordshire Terrier. It is a terrrer, not a bull dog. The name Pit Bull was once used but is no longer. To be really specific, it was Pit Bull Terrier.

[Venus de Smilo]

Cougars are animals of opportunity that prefer to strike from behind. They don't like a fair fight and will not challenge a bigger opponent. That's why opening your jacket and making yourself look bigger is an appropriate defense against them. Cougars prefer to attack from above and behind and go for the neck immediately. The cougar would pounce on the bulldog from behind and kill it quickly, but would not risk injury by a frontal attack. Better to retreat and find easier prey. They are closely related to jaguars and behave in similar fashion.

A number of years ago in Michigan a pregnant woman went in to check on the equipment that monitored a jaguar's environment at the John Ball Park zoo. The jaguar, Sasha, had squeezed through a gap in her enclosure and was up on top of some equipment, soaking up the heat. It jumped the woman from behind, severing both jugglar veins and one carotid artery. It shook and dragged the terrified woman around the room before she bled out. She and her baby both died on the scene. The animal was later transferred to a wildlife refuge in California. The woman was the daughter of one of my mother's closest friends, and was a third cousin (or something like that).
Link (http://blog.mlive.com/chronicle/2007/12/attack_in_1985_led_to_safety_r.html)
How absolutely horrible. :sad:

[Nutrider99]

Damn! She never saw that coming! There must've been some real soul searching on whether or not to euthanize the Jag...at least from the family's viewpoint.
Actually, it cost the zoo $1.5 miilion, which Gail's father was willing to forgo if her could kill it. This of course had the animal rights people up in arms, and there was a state wide campaign to save the jaguar.

[Oldeshooter]

Hey, I like Cats!
http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/1660/bulldogwxa9.jpg
But next time, please bring ketchup..


-Elgalad
One of my first dogs looked like this, his name was Truck.

[S-T]

My JRT thinks she's a bull mastiff. She'll take on anything, which scares me.

Jack Russell Terrier? No surprise there.

[Air Force Guy]

Jack Russell Terrier? No surprise there.
No kidding! There's one who lives just outside our neighborhood, in the front yard. He is quite bold and challenges everyone and everything that gets near HIS yard. He'd run right up to that cougar in a heartbeat.

[DesertFox]

My daughter has a miniature chihuahua

[BabyBeastie]

Those little (bull) dogs are no match for any wild cat.

[Venus de Smilo]

No kidding! There's one who lives just outside our neighborhood, in the front yard. He is quite bold and challenges everyone and everything that gets near HIS yard. He'd run right up to that cougar in a heartbeat.
They have the heart of a lion, as they say - fearless, scrappy, roughshod, game for anything and also very loving and cuddly. My little girl is just adorable, scary smart, vivacious and bold, so quick and nimble - 14 lbs. of canine dynamite - clocks at 18mph average over a two-mile course and is a regional champ in her go-to-ground. The JRT (Jack Russell Terrorist) is the only breed of dog I've ever seen or been around that actually "thinks". It's a very multi-faceted breed.

All of which means they have to be watched like a hawk.

And she owns our hearts, lock, stock and barrel.

[Venus de Smilo]

My daughter has a miniature chihuahua

I saw a minichi just the other day. I think it would be about 2 lbs. soaking wet, maybe less. Very sassy little dog. :thumb:

[S-T]

The JRT (Jack Russell Terrorist) is the only breed of dog I've ever seen or been around that actually "thinks". It's a very multi-faceted breed.

All of which means they have to be watched like a hawk.

Yep. In my (admittedly limited) observations I have discovered that a dog's willingness to obey its owner is inversely proportional to its intelligence. Stupid dogs tend to be more obedient than smart dogs - and I've got one of each.

[HomeschoolrsRUs]

Bigger dogs can "think" too. Our Bodacious is the smartest dog we've ever owned. He has figured out how to open the front door, alerted me to an alarm in our bedroom I forgot had been set (and we couldn't hear in the other part of the house) among other things. I don't think intelligence has so much to do with willingness to please the owner, although I will admit that's probably a good sized part of it. I think a lot of it's breeding. The puppies that came from the particular litter our pups came from have ALL turned out to be excellent pets, all smart and unique in their own ways. That was one of the reasons we were so heartbroken they had the mother fixed after this litter, since we lost one of our pups to a hit-and-run driver. We would have LOVED to have had another pup from those mom and dad dogs.

[Rhino]

I don't think S-T meant that to be axiomatic, hence his use of the word "tend". The smartest dog I ever owned, in fact the smartest I've ever seen, was also the most obedient and well behaved dog I ever owned. I swear she understood English sometimes. Right now I have another dog of the exact same breed, and the same size, and she's dumber than a box of rocks. She's extremely eager to please. It's just that she's not always smart enough to know what will please, and her 'dumb' exuberance often overcomes her desire to please. In short, she often doesn't have enough intelligence to overcome her excitement. But she still wants to please.

[Venus de Smilo]

Bigger dogs can "think" too. Our Bodacious is the smartest dog we've ever owned. He has figured out how to open the front door, alerted me to an alarm in our bedroom I forgot had been set (and we couldn't hear in the other part of the house) among other things. I don't think intelligence has so much to do with willingness to please the owner, although I will admit that's probably a good sized part of it. I think a lot of it's breeding. The puppies that came from the particular litter our pups came from have ALL turned out to be excellent pets, all smart and unique in their own ways. That was one of the reasons we were so heartbroken they had the mother fixed after this litter, since we lost one of our pups to a hit-and-run driver. We would have LOVED to have had another pup from those mom and dad dogs.
:sad: very sorry to hear that. That's a heartbreaker. :sad:

[S-T]

I don't think S-T meant that to be axiomatic, hence his use of the word "tend".

Correct. Service dogs, for example, are both intelligent and obedient. I was making a generic statement. There are obviously exceptions.

[Bluemoon_Rising]

I got a Jack Russell Terrier, 20 pounds soakin' wet, that kicked the ass of a good sized coyote in New Mexico when it got to close to my sister's three-year old. Growling ferociously, he placed himself in front of the toddler and when the coyote would not retreat, he charged it, lowered his head and rammed it. He chased it for a good 100 yards, snapping and biting at its hindquarters. Wild predators want an easy meal, not one that fights back. My dog tangled with two coyotes on another occasion in Texas. They were scrawnier, not much taller than Jasper, but between them probably had about 40 pounds on him. He started kickin’ on that ass when another emerged from the scrub from behind.

Undaunted: “Oh, yeah. You want some of this too, bitch?”

And he commenced to givin’ it, snapping and biting at the hindquarters of one and then the other as they ran from him.

All Terrier breds are fierce and loyal.

[DoctorDoom]

My younger daughter owns a JRT. The critters are almost insufferably cute.

<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v349/DocDoom777/Critters/JackRussel1.jpg">

And yappy.

[DesertFox]

Unalienably cute.

[PrezLeefun]

Aww what a cutie pie.

[Bluemoon_Rising]

My younger daughter owns a JRT. The critters are almost insufferably cute.

<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v349/DocDoom777/Critters/JackRussel1.jpg">

And yappy.

Yep, traditional short-hair, white-tan.

Mine's a white-black with pointed ears and a slighly longer snout. He has miniature Doberman somewhere in his lineage. All my dogs have been mutts. Though not much taller than his brethren, he's a bit broader, thicker of neck and shoulder. He's a handsome, manly little fellow . . . and what’s more he knows it. That is to say, he knows he's handsome. He thinks he's bigger than he is. He tolerates the kids, though he would protect them with his life, adores my wife and thinks I’m God.

[Air Force Guy]

Awright...that done it. My next dog (if I ever get one) is going to be a Jack puppy. :thumb:

[HomeschoolrsRUs]

Oh I would never dis a Jack -- one of three we lost in a three month period was our lady of the bunch, a Jack Russell/Min-Pin mix, and she was a wonderful dog.

In Memory of Taffy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_JuGMC3DO0)

UGA's Tribute (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3Q8nNg-ruM) (our twin pup lost to a hit & run driver)


Taffy Candy

[Air Force Guy]

I want one like they had in the movie "The Mask" with Jim Carrey. Brown and white. Finding the mythical mask of Loki would be a bonus.

[Venus de Smilo]

My younger daughter owns a JRT. The critters are almost insufferably cute.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v349/DocDoom777/Critters/JackRussel1.jpg

And yappy.
She's (he?) a doll baby; top of the breed, lovely markings, a real beauty. Look at the inquisitive, attentive, bright expression in her (his?) eyes, the intense focus and the eager, "ready" posture. Classic Jack. Like all Jacks I know of, this one is game for anything - ready to rock and roll anytime. This one's beyond adorable and I'm sure loads of fun. Happy, beautiful baby.

Throughout my life my family and I have had many different breeds of dogs, but there is NOTHING like a Jack. AFAIC, the JRT is the "Cadillac" of all breeds, a loving, joyful and incredibly smart dog in every respect.

[Venus de Smilo]

Yep, traditional short-hair, white-tan.

Mine's a white-black with pointed ears and a slighly longer snout. He has miniature Doberman somewhere in his lineage. All my dogs have been mutts. Though not much taller than his brethren, he's a bit broader, thicker of neck and shoulder. He's a handsome, manly little fellow . . . and what’s more he knows it. That is to say, he knows he's handsome. He thinks he's bigger than he is. He tolerates the kids, though he would protect them with his life, adores my wife and thinks I’m God.
Jacks think they're as big as grizzlies and, in their own way, they are. Your Jack sounds like the typical temperament. Smarter than smart, too, I bet. The kids are part of his pack, you're alpha, and mom's the easy mark. Typical Jack family. From your description of his build, I'll bet he's as strong as a little ox - they are SO strong!

If I sound like I'm insane over Jacks, it's only because I am.:D

[Venus de Smilo]

Awright...that done it. My next dog (if I ever get one) is going to be a Jack puppy. :thumb:
You will never, ever regret it. But be warned! They are stubborn and bold, not a docile breed. They're hooligans and can get into trouble because they are ALWAYS busy and THINKING. But they very much want to please, and the more you train them the happier they are and the happier you are. They require a bit more of a commitment than other breeds, but they're well worth the effort. Most of them also have a strong hunting instinct, using both sight and scent. They will land retrieve with training but their strong suit is RELENTLESSLY searching for varmints and they love to go to ground after them. They also put up birds tirelessly and are great little upland game gun dogs. They are at their happiest when hunting or running a game of tag. They'll stand there and bark at other dogs to get them to run so they can chase them, then they cut in and head them off almost like a herding dog does with sheep, then start over again. Ya gotta let 'em run. They also LOVE to go fishing. They will patiently watch your line and when you get a wiggle or a nibble, they're right on top of it, waiting to see that fish get reeled in, tail going a mile a minute.

Be prepared to be loved by a dog like you never have before. You never quite "own" them - you have a relationship with them, and they will communicate back to you and are very in tune with you, more than you realize. You develop a "wave-length" connection with them. They study you like a book and know what you're going to do next if it's anything you do by habit, even the littlest thing. And they'll "tell" you when the microwave dings or the sink is flowing over, etc.. When you're sad, they know it and will try to comfort you. If you cry, they will nuzzle you and lick away your tears. My Jack knows when I have a pain somewhere and wants to lick it. How they know a spot is painful is beyond me, but they know. When you're happy, laughing or excited, they follow suit and start tearing all around. Just make it clear - always - who's in charge of the relationship, mainly for the dog's safety.

If you do decide to get a JRT, be sure to get one that is NOT an AKC registered Parson Russell Terrier. Get a JRTCA (Jack Russell Terrier Club of America) bred Jack. The AKC Parson Russell breeders are breeding out the very best characteristics of the dog, just as the AKC has done with so many breeds. The JRTCA dogs are the genuine article. There are also JRT Rescue dogs available from time to time. I can connect you with Russell Rescue if/when you decide to get one if you want to go that route.

The rewards of owning a JRT are huge. I hope you get one some day. :)

[Venus de Smilo]

Oh I would never dis a Jack -- one of three we lost in a three month period was our lady of the bunch, a Jack Russell/Min-Pin mix, and she was a wonderful dog.

In Memory of Taffy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_JuGMC3DO0)

UGA's Tribute (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3Q8nNg-ruM) (our twin pup lost to a hit & run driver)


Taffy Candy
:sad: This makes me cry. I'm so sorry for your losses, Homes.

You've probably read this before, but here it is again:

<table border="0" cellpadding="10" width="70%"><tbody><tr><td align="center" valign="top"><table border="1" frame="border"><tbody><tr><td>http://www.rainbowbridge.com/Images/Gate_pics/POEM_Gate.jpg</td> </tr> </tbody></table> RainbowsBridge.com
</td> <td align="left" valign="top">Just this side of heaven is a place called Rainbow Bridge. When an animal dies that has been especially close to someone here, that pet goes to Rainbow Bridge. There are meadows and hills for all of our special friends so they can run and play together. There is plenty of food, water and sunshine, and our friends are warm and comfortable.
</td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" align="left">All the animals who had been ill and old are restored to health and vigor. Those who were hurt or maimed are made whole and strong again, just as we remember them in our dreams of days and times gone by. The animals are happy and content, except for one small thing; they each miss someone very special to them, who had to be left behind. They all run and play together, but the day comes when one suddenly stops and looks into the distance. His bright eyes are intent. His eager body quivers. Suddenly he begins to run from the group, flying over the green grass, his legs carrying him faster and faster.
You have been spotted, and when you and your special friend finally meet, you cling together in joyous reunion, never to be parted again. The happy kisses rain upon your face; your hands again caress the beloved head, and you look once more into the trusting eyes of your pet, so long gone from your life but never absent from your heart.
Then you cross Rainbow Bridge together....
Author unknown...
</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

This site was inspired by and is dedicated to FiFi (http://www.rainbowbridge.com/residents/FiFi009/Resident.htm)

Visit the Human side of Rainbows Bridge - BelovedHearts.com (http://belovedhearts.com/)


http://www.rainbowbridge.com/Poem.htm
<center></center>

[Air Force Guy]

Thanks VDS. That is valuable stuff. I need to find one that will adapt to living with a lovey-dovey tabby cat. Probably oughta start with a Jack puppy. I'll keep my ears open probably for someone in the neighborhood either giving away puppies or selling at a nominal fee. I doubt the breeding club will matter in my case but it sounds like it's worth the time to ask the owners of the mother where they got her from.

[Rhino]

A JRT is not the best choice if you're looking to maximize your chances of having a dog that will get along with your cat. No two dogs are alike, but the breed has a reputation for problems in that area.

[Venus de Smilo]

Thanks VDS. That is valuable stuff. I need to find one that will adapt to living with a lovey-dovey tabby cat. Probably oughta start with a Jack puppy. I'll keep my ears open probably for someone in the neighborhood either giving away puppies or selling at a nominal fee. I doubt the breeding club will matter in my case but it sounds like it's worth the time to ask the owners of the mother where they got her from.
Yes, it would be better to start with a younger dog since you have a kitty, say a three year-old or younger, although a pup would be best. But you might luck out with Russell Rescue and find one several years old that's used to kitties. The best the kitty-Jack relationship will usually be is deténte, although they can always surprise you. But I've seen a few cases where the Jack just will not tolerate the kitty ever - just not gonna happen. But with monitoring and firm commands, most Jacks will learn quickly that assaulting kitty is not acceptable. NEVER NEVER go off and leave them alone in the house together, though, no matter how well you think they're getting along. They have to be kept separate - one of them in, the other out, or a different room with the door closed tightly, etc., when you're gone. Also, Jacks play rough, real rough and tumble thuggery stuff, and may eventually want kitty to play. Some kitties will go along with a little wrestling, but mostly they're just disgusted with the Jack altogether. :D

Give me a holler if and when you get one. I'll give you some training info then. They're fun to train because they learn new things in about a minute.

One last selling point: Jacks embody the American spirit like no other breed. :biggrin: Although they are a British dog, bred in the mid-Nineteenth Century in Cornwall, England, by a clergyman named John Russell for flushing fox and small game, Jacks speak to our American heritage: rugged individualists rather than "followers", amazingly courageous, dare to go where no other dog has gone before, caution be damned/go for it, smart and inventive beyond comparison :thumb:.

Short article about Jacks, note what they say about JRTCA dogs vs. other "Jack" style dogs.: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Russell_Terrier

Excerpt demonstrates the heart of a Jack:
Miscellaneous

On April 29th, 2007, a Jack Russell named George saved five children in New Zealand from an attack by two pit bulls (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit_bull). He was reported to have charged at them and held them at bay long enough for the kids to get away. He had to be put down (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_euthanasia) due to injuries and was posthumously awarded a medal of bravery, normally reserved for humans, by the SPCA.<sup id="_ref-2" class="reference">[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Russell_Terrier#_note-2)</sup> A former US Marine also donated a Purple Heart award he received for service in Vietnam to George's owner. <sup id="_ref-3" class="reference">[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Russell_Terrier#_note-3)"</sup>

[Venus de Smilo]

A JRT is not the best choice if you're looking to maximize your chances of having a dog that will get along with your cat. No two dogs are alike, but the breed has a reputation for problems in that area.
They're not a match made in heaven, but usually tolerance is reached in fairly short order. Terriers and cats, no matter what breed of terrier, are sort of an oil and water situation. My uncle is a large animal vet (ret.) and has had Jacks for years and years and has always had kitties; none were killed by the Jacks. Most of my relatives are Jack enthusiasts and all have kitties, no problems. We have a Jack and a kitty. In each case, it's made clear to the Jack that kitty is not to be assaulted. Because they are so eager to please you, Jacks learn quickly to leave them alone as long as they know you're the boss - you're alpha, and what you say goes because they want to please you. The breed requires a firm hand, and that applies to their response to kitties as it does in all other aspects of their training. People who aren't prepared and equipped to handle a Jack blame the dog for their failures to train and supervise their introduction into the family and home. That's where the "reputation" comes from. Rarely is the Jack's response to kitties unresolvable, especially with a younger dog.

One of the things that happens when a Jack meets the family kitty is that they want to assert their superiority over the kitty so they have no future challenges from the kitty, meaning challenges for position in the family (pack) and resources (food). Once they've done that, they're not that interested anymore. Jacks seem to believe in the caste system. :grin:

[Rhino]

I have nothing against Jacks. I love the little buggars. I was just noting that they probably don't represent the best chances with cats.

[Air Force Guy]

:claps:This has been a great threadjack. Thanks.

[Venus de Smilo]

I have nothing against Jacks. I love the little buggars. I was just noting that they probably don't represent the best chances with cats.
You're right, but it's definitely doable.

Glad you love the little buggers, and little buggers they are indeed.:thumb:

[Venus de Smilo]

:eek: It wasn't a "pit bull"!!!! (We American Bulldog owners have enough trouble with people jumping to conclusions about the breed, without them being called the wrong breed! :smirky:)

Not the English bulldog, but the American Bulldog, American Staffordshire, pit bull and a bunch of others are all molossers. They include the Presa Canario which is probably the most or certainly among the most dangerous dog known.

[HomeschoolrsRUs]

I had no idea what you were talking about, so I looked it up, :smirky:. That's interesting information. I did notice this too -

Molosser (http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Molosser)
The Bulldog (http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Bulldog) breeds split from the Molossers in England and spread to the New World with colonization as well as Western Europe and, though smaller, are considered by some to still be Molosser breeds.

And just out of curiosity I looked up American Bulldog (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Bulldog) too.
There are two distinct strains of American Bulldogs, Johnson(Bully type) and Scott (Standard, Performance) which is often mistaken for its second cousin, the American Pit Bull Terrier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Pit_Bull_Terrier) because of its appearance, and for its much smaller European relatives because of its name. The American Bulldog is different from any of these.

This also describes our boy, Bodacious (and did describe our other little fellow, UGA, who was viciously taken from us :sad:):
An American Bulldog is a happy, friendly, and assertive dog that is at ease with its family and fine with strangers as they get to know the stranger in question.The American Bulldog is the most loyal breed of dog you can get, be it on a farm, or the city. They are quite fond of children and are protective of their loved ones.They bond strongly with their master and family . . . The American Bulldog is the most smartest, trainable breeds you can get.

[Venus de Smilo]

There's some dispute over which breeds derived and/or when they derived from Molossers. Mastiffs are Molossers, and rotties, boxers, Rhodesian Ridgebacks, presas, canos, a number of other breeds and even St. Bernards all descended from Molossers. Argument remains about which or when the various bulldogs branched from the Molossers, but pit bulls are definitely not terriers and definitely did derive from Molossers. One can see they're not true terriers just by looking at them.

[Rhino]

Pit Bull isn't a breed, though many places refer to them that way. Just ask the AKC. The three to seven dog breeds often considered to be pit bulls are quite docile if brought up correctly, as with any other dog.

Pit bull is a term that describes several types of dogs with similar physical characteristics. There are several physically similar breeds that are mistakenly termed "pit bull", including the Indian Bull Terrier, Argentine Dogo, the American Bulldog, the Bull Terrier, the Perro de Presa Canario, Cane Corso, and the American Staffordshire Terrier. These breeds are usually not included by name in any Breed Specific Legislation (see below), but are sometimes included because of a broad definition and confusion as to what a pit bull actually is. [1] All of these breeds as well as many others (including Great Danes, Newfoundlands and Rottweilers) are members of the Molosser family of dog breeds.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit_bull

[Venus de Smilo]

Pit Bull isn't a breed, though many places refer to them that way. Just ask the AKC. The three to seven dog breeds often considered to be pit bulls are quite docile if brought up correctly, as with any other dog.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit_bull
Yes, there are several types of pit bulls and it isn't a sole, specific breed. My point was that they're NOT terriers.

But as far as the AKC goes, I wouldn't ask them the time of day.

[Rhino]

Anybody remember twenty or thirty years ago when the Doberman was the EEEEEEvil devil of the dog world, and lots of folks wanted them banned? Where were bulldogs and terriers then?

Two decades ago, pit bulls and Rottweilers (the most recent breeds targeted) attracted little to no public concern. At that time it was the Doberman pinscher who was being vilified. In 2001, few people had heard of the Presa Canario breed, involved in the tragic, fatal attack on Diane Whipple in California in January of that year. Now that breed is being sought by individuals who desire the new "killer dog." Unfortunately, the "problem dog" at any given time is often the most popular breed among individuals who tend to be irresponsible, if not abusive, in the control and keeping of their pets. Simply put, if you ban one breed, individuals will just move on to another one. Banning a breed only speeds up the timetable.http://www.hsus.org/pets/issues_affecting_our_pets/dangerous_dogs.html

[Rhino]

Yes, there are several types of pit bulls and it isn't a sole, specific breed. My point was that they're NOT terriers.I agree. But many people include terrier breeds when they refer to pit bulls.

But as far as the AKC goes, I wouldn't ask them the time of day.Like them or not, they are the premier source for dog breeds. That doesn't mean I agree with them on everything, but they are the recognized authority.

[Venus de Smilo]

I agree. But many people include terrier breeds when they refer to pit bulls.

Like them or not, they are the premier source for dog breeds. That doesn't mean I agree with them on everything, but they are the recognized authority.
The AKC is the organization people hear about, so it's considered to be the only authority. There are other organizations that focus more on genetics and instinct rather than appearance and personality. There has always been a movement working against the AKC to NOT breed out a breed's natural instincts, be they working dogs, hunting dogs, etc., in favor of physical characteristics that the AKC believes typifies perfection in any given breed. If the AKC had their way, the only dogs allowed to draw breath would be the perfect breed standards of appearance and personality that have few or none of the breed's instincts. They'd be perfectly happy if 100 lb. retreivers became lap dogs.

Here's some more on Molossers, and there's a section on bulldog breeds that clarifies quite a bit: http://www.bulldoginformation.com/molossers-mastiff-type-dogs.html

[Rhino]

Argument remains about which or when the various bulldogs branched from the Molossers, but pit bulls are definitely not terriers and definitely did derive from Molossers. One can see they're not true terriers just by looking at them.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a5/Newfoundland_dog_Smoky.jpg/250px-Newfoundland_dog_Smoky.jpg

Another evil Molosser. Vicious lookin, ain't he? :lol:

[Venus de Smilo]

Anybody remember twenty or thirty years ago when the Doberman was the EEEEEEvil devil of the dog world, and lots of folks wanted them banned? Where were bulldogs and terriers then?

http://www.hsus.org/pets/issues_affecting_our_pets/dangerous_dogs.html
I don't remember dobies being vilified as eeeeeevil.

Presas are dangerous dogs in the wrong hands, always have been, according to my uncle who spoke of them long before the Whipple case. Presas aren't the only dangerous breed, but they're the most. My uncle describes a "dangerous" dog as a breed that has the capacity to kill humans, "capacity" meaning size, jaw strength and no instinctual prohibition not to kill humans under conditions that aren't life-threatening to their pack.

[Rhino]

The AKC is the organization people hear about, so it's considered to be the only authority.I didn't say only, just recognized. I know there are others, and they all disagree on what constitutes a pit bull.

[Rhino]

I don't remember dobies being vilified as eeeeeevil.I do. My brother had this little sweetheart named Toby. Toby the Dobie. I could never really figure out what the big deal was supposed to be.

My uncle describes a "dangerous" dog as a breed that has the capacity to kill humans, "capacity" meaning size, jaw strength and no instinctual prohibition not to kill humans under conditions that aren't life-threatening to their pack.Exactly how does one measure "no instinctual prohibition"? That description could include almost any large breed.

[Rhino]

I have to go home, but basically, the propensity of violence toward humans cannot be categorized by breed, nor can any instincts along those lines be measured or tied to specific breeds. You're perfectly free to disagree with me. I know Suzie does, because I argued this same subject on her site a while back. But so far, the case against 'pit bulls' is one primarily of perception. And, like other dogs, the instances of their bad behavior can be traced back to the owner, and how the owner treated them, not to their breed. Since the statistics bear this out, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[HomeschoolrsRUs]

I do. My brother had this little sweetheart named Toby. Toby the Dobie. I could never really figure out what the big deal was supposed to be.

I remember when they were vilified too! There were several movies depicting vicious dobermans out at the same time as well. It was also about the same time I had some dobies of my own (1981-1983). I had a show dog, Bandit, Lord of Lightning (his AKC name), and 2 other pets, Dixie Darling and Molly (who came from the pound). All three were the sweetest dogs, never had a moments trouble with any of them.

[Venus de Smilo]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a5/Newfoundland_dog_Smoky.jpg/250px-Newfoundland_dog_Smoky.jpg

Another evil Molosser. Vicious lookin, ain't he? :lol:

Molossers aren't evil, and I didn't say they were. There are a few dangerous breeds that descend from Molossers, however - mainly from the "guard" branch, not the "working" branch, which is what the creature in the photo looks like to me. He's cute. :D

[Venus de Smilo]

I have to go home, but basically, the propensity of violence toward humans cannot be categorized by breed, nor can any instincts along those lines be measured or tied to specific breeds. You're perfectly free to disagree with me. I know Suzie does, because I argued this same subject on her site a while back. But so far, the case against 'pit bulls' is one primarily of perception. And, like other dogs, the instances of their bad behavior can be traced back to the owner, and how the owner treated them, not to their breed. Since the statistics bear this out, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
I think you completely misunderstood what I said.

[Venus de Smilo]

I have to go home, but basically, the propensity of violence toward humans cannot be categorized by breed, nor can any instincts along those lines be measured or tied to specific breeds. You're perfectly free to disagree with me. I know Suzie does, because I argued this same subject on her site a while back. But so far, the case against 'pit bulls' is one primarily of perception. And, like other dogs, the instances of their bad behavior can be traced back to the owner, and how the owner treated them, not to their breed. Since the statistics bear this out, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
I think you completely misunderstood what I said.

[Air Force Guy]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a5/Newfoundland_dog_Smoky.jpg/250px-Newfoundland_dog_Smoky.jpg

Another evil Molosser. Vicious lookin, ain't he? :lol:I woulda guessed CERBERUS but that was a multi-headed mutt. Still, this one probably gets a lot of attention when he barks angrily.

[Venus de Smilo]

I have to go home, but basically, the propensity of violence toward humans cannot be categorized by breed, nor can any instincts along those lines be measured or tied to specific breeds. You're perfectly free to disagree with me. I know Suzie does, because I argued this same subject on her site a while back. But so far, the case against 'pit bulls' is one primarily of perception. And, like other dogs, the instances of their bad behavior can be traced back to the owner, and how the owner treated them, not to their breed. Since the statistics bear this out, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I think you completely misunderstood what I said, but I'll pass your wisdom on to my uncle. He'll appreciate the enlightenment, what with close to fifty years as a veterinarian, including his time teaching VM and supervising genetic research at UC Davis School of Veterinary Medicine, which is considered the top or one of the top vet med schools in the world. ;)

[BabyBeastie]

...and let him know that Golden Retrievers make excellent attack/guard dogs. LOL

[TeenageRepublican]

My daughter has a miniature chihuahua

Your daughter collects rodents?

[TeenageRepublican]

My dog is a mutt. No one has ever been able to guess what mixed-breed of dogs she is.
She's eleven years old and she's still hyper. I thought she was going to be like Lady-bird on King of the Hill when she became eleven. I was wrong.

[Bluemoon_Rising]

Jacks think they're as big as grizzlies and, in their own way, they are. Your Jack sounds like the typical temperament. Smarter than smart, too, I bet. The kids are part of his pack, you're alpha, and mom's the easy mark. Typical Jack family. From your description of his build, I'll bet he's as strong as a little ox - they are SO strong!

If I sound like I'm insane over Jacks, it's only because I am.:D

Not crazy at all. Your description is perfect:

Look at the inquisitive, attentive, bright expression in her (his?) eyes, the intense focus and the eager, "ready" posture. Classic Jack. Like all Jacks I know of, this one is game for anything - ready to rock and roll anytime.

A Jack's eyes always follow the movements of the alpha, eagerly awaiting acknowledgement or command. "What's next, Papa?" Even in repose, sitting or lying near me, Jasper’s head and eyes are pointed in my direction. If I move out of his line of sight, he moves. Sometimes it's annoying, but you get used to it. Jacks are very affectionate, smart, loyal and fierce.

[Venus de Smilo]

Not crazy at all. Your description is perfect:



A Jack's eyes always follow the movements of the alpha, eagerly awaiting acknowledgement or command. "What's next, Papa?" Even in repose, sitting or lying near me, Jasper’s head and eyes are pointed in my direction. If I move out of his line of sight, he moves. Sometimes it's annoying, but you get used to it. Jacks are very affectionate, smart, loyal and fierce.

They do indeed watch alpha's movements like a hawk. "Co-alphas":D are also watched carefully. After all, you might grab your keys, which means she or he might be going somewhere (anywhere is fine with them), or we might be going back inside to get some more coffee or another glass of wine and a sliver of cheese, which is a good opportunity to make sure no rodentia have invaded the kitchen while she or he was gone. Or, you might just be answering the phone which is disappointing to them because it means your attention is off them for a bit, even though they're happy to come let you know the phone is ringing (or there's something happening in the house or outside that you need to attend to right away) or greet you on your way in to answer since they know the ringing phone means you'll be standing in a certain spot in a few moments. And putting on your shoes and jacket are a potential sign of good things to come, especially if it's work or hunting boots and jackets or boating gear. That means an outdoor adventure! When they see any of those things, they quiver in excitement - for about a minute. Then their patience ends and the barking for you to hurry up starts ("why are you so SLOW?"). They run to the door before you're quite ready to go, then run back to see what's keeping you, back and forth, back forth, telling you to "Hurry! Let's GO!" You open the door and they burst through it as though they were shot out of a cannon. :thumb: Then, if you break out a fishing rod or a shotgun, activities which are ecstasy for them, they whimper and cry in the agony of waiting for you to gather it all up.

Does Jasper like to burrow under the covers and sleep with you?

[Venus de Smilo]

Your daughter collects rodents?
:rotflmbo:

[Lazarus]

This is a photo of a cougar that was sent to me from a friend who lives in Washington State... They grow em big out there...

[Bluemoon_Rising]

Just so, especially this:

They run to the door before you're quite ready to go, then run back to see what's keeping you, back and forth, back and forth, telling you to "Hurry! Let's GO!" You open the door and they burst through it as though they were shot out of a cannon.

However, Jasper has a slightly different routine. He has to travel in a carrier as he's too hyper to ride quietly. We figured that out early, as the first time we had him along on a drive he jumped into my lap, his bright eyes borrowing into mine, just to see what I was doing. Not safe. So when I pick up the car keys he runs to his carrier and will even nose the door open and lay down . . . and wait, but not for long. Then he runs back to see what's keeping me. Back and forth. Back and forth.

I can't handle a dog in the bed. I draw the line there. Though he would love to, he knows to stay off it. However, as you might expect, he sleeps on the floor on my side of the bed and will drag his doggie bed to my side if it is moved from his spot.

[Venus de Smilo]

My dog is a mutt. No one has ever been able to guess what mixed-breed of dogs she is.
She's eleven years old and she's still hyper. I thought she was going to be like Lady-bird on King of the Hill when she became eleven. I was wrong.
"Mutt" is a perfectly fine breed :thumb:

How big is she? Long or short hair? What does she look like? Is/was she fast? Since she's eleven and still hasn't wound down, she may have some terrier in her.

[Venus de Smilo]

This is a photo of a cougar that was sent to me from a friend who lives in Washington State... They grow em big out there...
Gulp....er....that cougar IS deceased, right?

[Venus de Smilo]

Just so, especially this:



"However, Jasper has a slightly different routine. He has to travel in a carrier as he's too hyper to ride quietly. We figured that out early, as the first time we had him along on a drive he jumped into my lap, his bright eyes borrowing into mine, just see what I was doing. Not safe. So when I pick up the car keys he runs to his carrier and will even nose the door open and lay down . . . and wait, but not for long. Then he runs back to see what's keeping me. Back and forth. Back and forth."

:thumb: Yep. "Hurry!!!!!" "Come on"!

Ours rides with us, watches everything through the window. She recognizes many landmarks, all of which tells her what we're doing. I can tell because some landmarks excite her, others don't. The ones that do are associated with someone or something she likes. She knows how to open the window by pushing the button. Fortunately, all of our vehicles have additional driver window controls so we can roll the window back up or partly up so we don't have to worry about her falling out.

"I can't handle a dog in the bed. I draw the line there. Though he would love to, he knows to stay off it. However, as you might expect, he sleeps on the floor on my side of the bed and will drag his doggie bed to my side if it is moved from his spot."

:D Yep. They're big on arranging things their way. They want everything to be just right when they sleep and it's no surprise that Jasper positions his bed to suit himself, which is of course next to you. They also arrange hiding places for their toys, move limbs and such out of their way when they're on scent and after something. Ours will snuffle a fallen branch, for instance. If she gets a hit, she'll move the branch and find the hole.

My husband isn't crazy about ours sleeping with us either, but he tolerates it because I want her in because she wants to be in. She LOVES to sleep with me so I indulge her. We have a king-size bed and she burrows in on the outer side of me, so John is able to just forget she's there. I lift up the covers, she hops right in to her spot, velcroes herself to me and remains so most of the night.

Does Jasper like the garage? They usually love garages, sheds, etc.. Enemy (rodentia) territory and all.

[TeenageRepublican]

"Mutt" is a perfectly fine breed :thumb:

How big is she? Long or short hair? What does she look like? Is/was she fast? Since she's eleven and still hasn't wound down, she may have some terrier in her.

She's medium, not too big, not too small. She's a long hair. She has butterscotch-colored hair on the back and sides and her stomach is white all the way to the bottom of the snout. She also has white paws and a curly tail. She is super fast.

[Bluemoon_Rising]

Does Jasper like the garage? They usually love garages, sheds, etc.. Enemy (rodentia) territory and all.

Yes. Thus far, he's racked up three mice, two lizards and a gopher. Apparently the doings of gophers are especially intolerable as he ritualistically presented that kill to me. He didn’t regard the others as being worthy of such ceremony. We simply discovered their remains. I'm glad the rabbits are too fast for him.