I'm a bit depressed

[BarryC]

:fred: :patriot: Why, you may ask. It's because McCain won the primary in South Carolina. They say the guy who wins that usually wins the general election later. I'm also a little depressed because Fred has dropped out of the race (if what I've heard is true). I'm also disappointed in Rudy, that he's endorsing McCain. Anyway, now I don't know who I'm going to vote for.

I mean, Romney seems to say the right things, but he just doesn't seem like the right guy to me. I like Rudy except for his pro-choice stance, and of course he's out now. Then there's Huckabee. I like the fact that he's a Christian, but I'm not sure I like him as a candidate. I also definitely don't want McCain. I'm very surprised at how this whole thing has gone down. Before any of the primaries started I thought Fred was a shoe-in. I thought he had it all wrapped up, and that McCain didn't have a chance. Then I figured that maybe Huckabee and Rudy would run a close second and third behind Fred. So what has happened has come as a big surprise to me. Our primary here in NJ comes up soon, but I have no idea who I'm going to vote for, as I said.
I want Fred!! :fred:
By the way, my mom doesn't like any of the candidates at all, not one of them!

[Wolfcounsel]

"I'm also disappointed in Rudy, that he's endorsing McCain. Anyway, now I don't know who I'm going to vote for." --BarryC

Well, vote for the Democrat, or your vote for a third party candidate will be a vote for the Democrat anyway.

[BarryC]

:patriot: I was referring to voting in our Republican Primary, not the general election!
Obviously I have to choose, but it will be the lesser of two evils, so to speak. Did I mention, I want Fred?

[Timberwolf]

I will not vote for McCain even IF hell freezes over. Right now, I'm weighing Romney vs. Ron Paul and Ron is winning (though, not by much).

[BarryC]

Well I have to vote this coming Tuesday. Maybe Romney, but definitely not McCain. I also get the feeling that nobody is going to vote for Ron Paul. It seems he doesn't have a snowball's chance, so to speak.

[jayson]

I also get the feeling that nobody is going to vote for Ron Paul. It seems he doesn't have a snowball's chance, so to speak.

You must be living in fantasy land, then...

[HomeschoolrsRUs]

You must be living in fantasy land, then...

No actually, that would be you.

[Taylor1]

No actually, that would be you.

There you go, with all due respect jayson really.




VOTE FOR ROMNEY HE CAN DO IT!

[HomeschoolrsRUs]

There you go, with all due respect jayson really.




VOTE FOR ROMNEY HE CAN DO IT!


But I didn't say that either, :smirky:

[ColonialMarine0431]

Don't be. We still stand strong. With a Bible in one hand and a sword in the other. There's something called HONOR. Something too many civilians don't have. I will gladly give my life to defend America,

[jayson]

No actually, that would be you.

An anticipated rebuttal, m'dear.

I do find it funny that I am far more conservative than some here, and I support a candidate that is now the only conservative running, and I am called a kook or a nut for it.

[ThomasMore]

I'm sorry -- withdrawal from Iraq, Afghanistan and anywhere else we have to put down terrorists before the job is done is NOT an option. We did NOT bring Islamofascist terrorism upon ourselves, as Paul has falsely claimed, nor will we make it go away by kissing their behinds, as Paul has also suggested.

His oft-stated demands to withdraw from the war before it is complete, guaranteeing defeat, utterly disqualifies Ron Paul -- he is unwilling to defend the United States.

Add to that the fact that Paul hasn't been able to lead in any manner whatsoever in his decades in Congress proves that he lacks even the most basic leadership qualities.

In many areas, Paul qualifies as a conservative. But he is out of his league even as a Member of Congress. As President, he would be a complete catastrophe -- the Republicans' Jimmy Carter, or even worse.

As for the others, I can live with Romney. If the election is between McCain and Clinton, I will stay home or find a third-party candidate: the Republican Party will have lost the last vestiges of my support. (If it is McCain v. Obama, I might just vote Obama for the comic relief of watching the chaos unfold. While Clinton is ruthless and already knows how to use the power of the White House, watching Reid, Pelosi and Obama running the show together should provide more amusement than Moe, Larry and Curly).

http://www.investors.com/editorial/cartoons/IMAGES/CARTOONS/toon080307c.gif <object id="A4917480208056560640" quality="high" data="http://llnw.jibjab.com/content/player.swf?content_url=http://www.jibjab.com/sendables/api/remote/bGNeplaCEPfyu35ZRBTMPbPS.xml" pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" height="369" width="435"><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><param name="movie" value="http://llnw.jibjab.com/content/player.swf"></param><param name="scaleMode" value="showAll"></param><param name="quality" value="high"></param><param name="allowNetworking" value="internal"></param><param name="FlashVars" value="content_url=http://www.jibjab.com/sendables/api/remote/bGNeplaCEPfyu35ZRBTMPbPS.xml"></param><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="never"></param></object><div style="text-align:center; width:435px; margin-top:6px;">Don't send a lame <a href="http://www.jibjab.com/sendables/category/52/starring_you">Starring You! eCard</a>. Try <a href="http://www.jibjab.com/sendables">JibJab Sendables</a>!</div>

[TeenageRepublican]

An anticipated rebuttal, m'dear.

I do find it funny that I am far more conservative than some here, and I support a candidate that is now the only conservative running, and I am called a kook or a nut for it.

I agree that you are far more conservative than some here.

I would support Ron Paul but he has just as much of a chance as Fred Thompson did. Name one state that gave him first place in the primaries or a cacus.

[ThomasMore]

Guys, you still have to get past that whole "defending this country" thing, and Ron Paul's often-stated refusal to do it.

The Constitution is not a suicide pact, and I don't respect a politician who won't recognize that. By his own campaign and debate statements, Ron Paul has disqualified himself from taking the oath of office.

[Beowulf]

Don't be. We still stand strong. With a Bible in one hand and a sword in the other. There's something called HONOR. Something too many civilians don't have. I will gladly give my life to defend America,
So true, Marine. Tell you what, when the next Civil War breaks out, I'll fight along side you.

If the election is between McCain and Clinton, I will stay home or find a third-party candidate: the Republican Party will have lost the last vestiges of my support.
I won't stay home but I will stick to my guns and vote Constitutionalist. I'm not compromising my values and morals to vote for a candidate I don't like. As I've said before, if everyone would do that instead of voting for whoever the GOP nominates JUST to keep a Democrat out of office, that non-viable 3rd party we keep hearing about might actually become viable. I mean, I don't know about you all but I'm not rewarding a candidate I don't like with my vote when they've done things like champion amnesty, author McCain-Feingold, vote against tax cuts and most other things his party supports.

And as far as Ron Paul goes, I think he would be alright with domestic issues but he would give America away to terrorists just to keep the peace. No thanks!

[HomeschoolrsRUs]

The Constitution is not a suicide pact, and I don't respect a politician who won't recognize that. By his own campaign and debate statements, Ron Paul has disqualified himself from taking the oath of office.

:claps: My sentiments exactly, which totally obliterates the argument ...

. . . [Ron Paul] is now the only conservative running . . .

Conservatives don't cut and run, they don't vote against funding for military that are CURRENTLY in harm's way, and they don't quit -- they allow our fine men and women in the armed services to finish the job. They ALSO secure the safety of this country by any means necessary. Isolationism is not an option.

That being said, there IS NO viable CONSERVATIVE left to vote for. Only lesser-of-two-evils candidates, and/or to vote AGAINST the "D".

[ThomasMore]

Nobody liked the JibJab? I spent over an hour making it last night.

(Although I have to say that Reid and Pelosi looked better than I expected. I took two of the worst pictures of them I could find -- cutting off their heads and turning them to black and white actually made them look better. Bummer.)

Original pics:

http://granitegrok.com/pix/Harry%20Reid.jpg http://www.yosemite.org/newsroom/clips2006/july/PelosiHetchy.jpg

[HomeschoolrsRUs]

Sorry Thomas, I didn't know that was a JibJab ... all I saw on my screen was a big black box -- I thought you were trying to post a pic that wouldn't show up, :o

You should have used "Night of the Living Democrats" :smirky:

[Maggie_T]

I'm sorry -- withdrawal from Iraq, Afghanistan and anywhere else we have to put down terrorists before the job is done is NOT an option. We did NOT bring Islamofascist terrorism upon ourselves, as Paul has falsely claimed, nor will we make it go away by kissing their behinds, as Paul has also suggested.

His oft-stated demands to withdraw from the war before it is complete, guaranteeing defeat, utterly disqualifies Ron Paul -- he is unwilling to defend the United States.

Add to that the fact that Paul hasn't been able to lead in any manner whatsoever in his decades in Congress proves that he lacks even the most basic leadership qualities.

In many areas, Paul qualifies as a conservative. But he is out of his league even as a Member of Congress. As President, he would be a complete catastrophe -- the Republicans' Jimmy Carter, or even worse.

As for the others, I can live with Romney. If the election is between McCain and Clinton, I will stay home or find a third-party candidate: the Republican Party will have lost the last vestiges of my support. (If it is McCain v. Obama, I might just vote Obama for the comic relief of watching the chaos unfold. While Clinton is ruthless and already knows how to use the power of the White House, watching Reid, Pelosi and Obama running the show together should provide more amusement than Moe, Larry and Curly).





:urtheman:

Thomas, can I have your autograph?

I haven't been around much because I'm going through training for my new job. And let me tell you that I thank God that I have that to distract my mind from this HORRENDOUS 2008 elections debacle, or by now I would probably be on suicide watch.

When Jim picked me up after one of the training sessions and told me McCain had won Florida, I very nearly lost it. Jim had the radio on tuned to Mark Levine, and he was pretty much on my same page, which (in my book) tells me I was right to be so upset.

So. After repeatedly stating that I would vote for the lest of the worst, if this turncoat SOB gets the nomination, I'll have to cut my tongue and feed it to the dogs because now I CANNOT in all honesty say that I will unconditionally vote 'pub.

Shall I tell you why? Because for me, McCain IS hell. Because I consider him a liberal, good and proper. No, not even a Rino. A LIBERAL. If he gets the nomination, he will not pound Hillary/Obama/whoever because he AGREES with them on so many things. Hill/Obama will chew him up and spit him out, I'm ready to bet on that. Oh, sure. He'll say all the right things about the WoT, and if he gets elected, maybe even do them ... provided Ted Kennedy doesn't put a flea in his ear on the issue. Yeah. That's how little I trust the bastard (I mean McCain).

And DON'T EVEN CONSIDER coming to me with his war record. Everything McCain has done since then neutralized his war record, in my book. I was listening to Mark Levine and there was a caller who said we "owed McCain" for his war record. EX-BLOODY-CUSE ME?! We owe him th epresidency of the republic? No way! How arrogant to say such a thing. What about all the unknown soliders who went through the same thing McCain went? May I politely remind everyone he was NOT the only one? IAC, we half paid McCain already. We put him in CONgress. And look how he paid back. He stabbed the 1st Amendment, right in the heart of the reason why our Founding Fathers brought it up in the first place: the freedom to tell our "leaders" where they get off (I'll NEVER forgive McCain for that).
I said I would vote 'pub regardless because - just like our Founding Fathers would never have imagined that same-sex marriage would be regarded as a "constitutional right" - never in my worst nightmares did I think McCain would get this far (I mean, c'mon, he was elected by a mere 36% ONLY in FLA, he got less everywhere else). So now that the worse has happened, I'm all at sea. I still pray that this turncoat does not get the final nomination, but if he does ... well, I don't know.

So, thank you Republican Country Club Aristocrats, RINOs, and other assorted pests, like the so-called "independents"! Remind me to send you all a token of my gratitude. :evilgrin: :flame:

And on that "ranty" note, I must leave you guys. It's hubby's birthday today and I have neglected him enough already.

Talk to you soon.

[ColonialMarine0431]

I'm sorry -- withdrawal from Iraq, Afghanistan and anywhere else we have to put down terrorists before the job is done is NOT an option. We did NOT bring Islamofascist terrorism upon ourselves, as Paul has falsely claimed, nor will we make it go away by kissing their behinds, as Paul has also suggested.

His oft-stated demands to withdraw from the war before it is complete, guaranteeing defeat, utterly disqualifies Ron Paul -- he is unwilling to defend the United States.

Add to that the fact that Paul hasn't been able to lead in any manner whatsoever in his decades in Congress proves that he lacks even the most basic leadership qualities.

In many areas, Paul qualifies as a conservative. But he is out of his league even as a Member of Congress. As President, he would be a complete catastrophe -- the Republicans' Jimmy Carter, or even worse.

As for the others, I can live with Romney. If the election is between McCain and Clinton, I will stay home or find a third-party candidate: the Republican Party will have lost the last vestiges of my support. (If it is McCain v. Obama, I might just vote Obama for the comic relief of watching the chaos unfold. While Clinton is ruthless and already knows how to use the power of the White House, watching Reid, Pelosi and Obama running the show together should provide more amusement than Moe, Larry and Curly).

http://www.investors.com/editorial/cartoons/IMAGES/CARTOONS/toon080307c.gif <object id="A4917480208056560640" quality="high" data="http://llnw.jibjab.com/content/player.swf?content_url=http://www.jibjab.com/sendables/api/remote/bGNeplaCEPfyu35ZRBTMPbPS.xml" pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" height="369" width="435"><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><param name="movie" value="http://llnw.jibjab.com/content/player.swf"></param><param name="scaleMode" value="showAll"></param><param name="quality" value="high"></param><param name="allowNetworking" value="internal"></param><param name="FlashVars" value="content_url=http://www.jibjab.com/sendables/api/remote/bGNeplaCEPfyu35ZRBTMPbPS.xml"></param><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="never"></param></object><div style="text-align:center; width:435px; margin-top:6px;">Don't send a lame <a href="http://www.jibjab.com/sendables/category/52/starring_you">Starring You! eCard</a>. Try <a href="http://www.jibjab.com/sendables">JibJab Sendables</a>!</div>

Bwahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!! I just now saw it!!! :roar::roar::roar:

[BarryC]

Me too. That's all I saw- a black box, so I didn't hit the start button or anything to see what it was. But I don't watch many video clips with this computer since it's so slow.
Sorry Thomas, I didn't know that was a JibJab ... all I saw on my screen was a big black box -- I thought you were trying to post a pic that wouldn't show up, :o

You should have used "Night of the Living Democrats" :smirky:

[BarryC]

I just wanted to add to all this, no matter who ends up with the nomination, I will never vote, even if you paid me, for democrat. Sorry. Ain't gonna happen. No scum-sucking liberal democrat will ever get my vote, to use a Morton Downy Jr. term. No matter how bad McCain is, I don't want Hillary or Obama in office. No way.

[jayson]

My sentiments exactly, which totally obliterates the argument ...

What I find frightening is that you and others think the Constitution... the law of the land... the document that has ensured that we have any rights at all... is a suicide pact. That's just downright scary!

The Constitution provides for the ability to declare wars legally. We did not do this.

Conservatives don't cut and run,

"Cut and run" is not the same as realizing that you have done the best you can, and staying any longer is just beating a dead horse.

they don't vote against funding for military that are CURRENTLY in harm's way,

Apparently you have never read these funding bills in their entirety. Especially during an election year, these bills get chock full of unconstitutional and wasteful earmarks and pork. Passing this bill is almost a sure deal, since it could be political suicide not to. Ron Paul didn't vote on several of these spending bills due to this very reason. If you would take the time to actually read them before jumping to conclusions, you would see what I mean. But yes, it is far easier to just assume because it easily, although erroneously, validates your argument.

and they don't quit -- they allow our fine men and women in the armed services to finish the job.
At what point do we call it done. We went in looking for WMDs... we didn't find any. If there were any, they are now buried in some desert likely to never be retrieved again. Then we decided we needed to setup a government, and we did that. Now what are we there for? How long must we stay there? We have done all we could, it's time we come home and let them sort their own shit out.

People must jump and grab the branch of liberty by their own will... we can't forcibly do it for them.

They ALSO secure the safety of this country by any means necessary. Isolationism is not an option.

Homes, it would seem you and most others on this board fall into the trap of "big man/woman on campus" thinking. In your mind, we need to be out kicking everybody's ass so we can be safe here at home.

How many people in high school actually liked the jock and the prom queen? There were those that were friends with them just so they themselves could be popular, but the majority of the student body hated them.

It's no different in the real world. When we insist on forcing our ideologies on people in a "take it or we bomb you" manner, it only makes enemies and strains relations.

[Taylor1]

An anticipated rebuttal, m'dear.

I do find it funny that I am far more conservative than some here, and I support a candidate that is now the only conservative running, and I am called a kook or a nut for it.

Yeah because of what he does in the debates and the amount of signs + things ron paul supporters have done I.E. the incident where they ATTACKED Sean Hannity coming out of a resteraunt or something in New York City.

[ThomasMore]

"Cut and run" is not the same as realizing that you have done the best you can, and staying any longer is just beating a dead horse.

Do you understand that the Islamofascists haven't laid down yet? They declared war upon us, and that war is not over.

If we walk off the field, they WILL bring the fight to us.

When I was the security trainer for the regional airline, I had enough communications with TSA inspectors (not airport security guards, but people from Washington who had access to current security intelligence) to know that there are multiple, ongoing efforts to attack the United States within its borders.

We are at war with an enemy who attacked us here, who continue in active efforts to attack us here as well as engaging actively on the field of battle in the middle east, and who continue to state their intention to destroy the US.

Declaring a unilateral withdrawal from the field of battle and moving the battlefield here is national suicide.

Article II, Section 2 of the Constitution:

Section 2. The President shall be commander in chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the militia of the several states, when called into the actual service of the United States.

A candidate for commander in chief who declares his intent to withdraw from the field of battle and move the fight entirely within our own borders is beyond consideration.

Apparently you have never read these funding bills in their entirety. Especially during an election year, these bills get chock full of unconstitutional and wasteful earmarks and pork. Passing this bill is almost a sure deal, since it could be political suicide not to. Ron Paul didn't vote on several of these spending bills due to this very reason. If you would take the time to actually read them before jumping to conclusions, you would see what I mean. But yes, it is far easier to just assume because it easily, although erroneously, validates your argument.

I am not talking about the larding of bills with pork: that is Congress's doing. The President can only sign or veto -- with his veto, he will cut his troops' support. What would you do?

What did Ron Paul do to mobilize his fellow Congressmen against it? One "no" vote is 1/535th of the legislature, less than 0.2%. Show me his leadership in Congress.

If he couldn't lead in his many years in Congress, what makes you think he will lead from the White House?

At what point do we call it done. We went in looking for WMDs... we didn't find any. If there were any, they are now buried in some desert likely to never be retrieved again. Then we decided we needed to setup a government, and we did that. Now what are we there for? How long must we stay there? We have done all we could, it's time we come home and let them sort their own shit out.

People must jump and grab the branch of liberty by their own will... we can't forcibly do it for them.

We finish the job, or it will finish us.

Homes, it would seem you and most others on this board fall into the trap of "big man/woman on campus" thinking. In your mind, we need to be out kicking everybody's ass so we can be safe here at home.

How many people in high school actually liked the jock and the prom queen? There were those that were friends with them just so they themselves could be popular, but the majority of the student body hated them.

It's no different in the real world. When we insist on forcing our ideologies on people in a "take it or we bomb you" manner, it only makes enemies and strains relations.

Jayson! Do you understand that we were attacked?

That we have an active enemy who is at war with us and desires our destruction?

That they haven't surrendered? That they remain a threat?

That they are, RIGHT NOW, trying to attack us within our borders?

This is not about petty envy over the high school prom date you didn't get!

Oy!!!

[Timberwolf]

What I find frightening is that you and others think the Constitution... the law of the land... the document that has ensured that we have any rights at all... is a suicide pact. That's just downright scary!

The Constitution provides for the ability to declare wars legally. We did not do this.
Since WHEN do we have to declare war to PROTECT ourselves from those who have already declared war upon us?

The suicide pact, to which you refer, will only be realized if we end our efforts in the ME prematurely. I don't like us being over there any more than the next guy, but if we bring the troops home anytime soon, 9/11 is gonna look like happy hour at 6 Flags in comparison. MARK MY WORDS.

"Cut and run" is not the same as realizing that you have done the best you can, and staying any longer is just beating a dead horse.
Well, considering the horse is still kicking, bucking, and giving us an attitude warrants beating it a bit longer.

Apparently you have never read these funding bills in their entirety. Especially during an election year, these bills get chock full of unconstitutional and wasteful earmarks and pork. Passing this bill is almost a sure deal, since it could be political suicide not to. Ron Paul didn't vote on several of these spending bills due to this very reason. If you would take the time to actually read them before jumping to conclusions, you would see what I mean. But yes, it is far easier to just assume because it easily, although erroneously, validates your argument.
Well well...what the heck has your prom queen done to excise pork FROM these bills to which you refer? Not one damned thing...except vote against them. He's shown absolutely no leadership; no qualities of charismatic persuasion in which to advance his position. What makes you think he'll be any more effective if he gains the White House? Hell, he'll be a lame duck from the very first day!

At what point do we call it done.
When it is done.

We went in looking for WMDs... we didn't find any. If there were any, they are now buried in some desert likely to never be retrieved again.
Read this and then repeat what you just said ( http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c105:S.RES.179:)

While you're at it, read this one too (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?r105:1:./temp/~r105K44Maq:e8478:)

That ought to lay to rest any doubt of whether or not Saddam had WMD...he most certainly did and to claim otherwise is to show yourself a fool of the highest order.

Then we decided we needed to setup a government, and we did that. Now what are we there for? How long must we stay there? We have done all we could, it's time we come home and let them sort their own shit out.
When THIS country was founded, how long did it take US to get our act together? Yeah, and WE took the initiative to throw off the chains of oppression...get a grip on reality, will you please?

People must jump and grab the branch of liberty by their own will... we can't forcibly do it for them.
Yeah...when said people have been living under oppression for 1400 years...yeah...real easy there Sport. Did you ever stop to think that "hmmmm, maybe they don't know HOW to 'grab the branch of liberty'"? Nah, didn't think so.

Homes, it would seem you and most others on this board fall into the trap of "big man/woman on campus" thinking. In your mind, we need to be out kicking everybody's ass so we can be safe here at home.
Say there, Cooder...we got OUR asses kicked about 6 years ago...capice? We're just making sure it don't happen AGAIN. Pull yer head out and grasp the BIG picture.

How many people in high school actually liked the jock and the prom queen? There were those that were friends with them just so they themselves could be popular, but the majority of the student body hated them.

It's no different in the real world. When we insist on forcing our ideologies on people in a "take it or we bomb you" manner, it only makes enemies and strains relations.
200 years ago, it took 4-6 MONTHS to cross the Atlantic. At that point in history we COULD be isolationist/non-interventionist. Today, I can be in NYC later today, have a meeting tomorrow morning; catch a trans-Atlantic flight to London, have a meeting tomorrow evening; fly to Cairo tomorrow night, have a meeting the following morning; fly to Beijing that afternoon, have a meeting that evening; catch an overnight trans-Pacific flight to Hawaii, have breakfast in Honolulu and be back home (here in North Dakota)...all inside ONE WEEK. How in the world do you expect us to remain unaffected by worldly events when what happens in Bombay today, can impact the USA tomorrow?

Get REAL!! Or continue drinking your Kool-Aid...Ron Paul is NOT going to be the next President. And if you guys had wanted a constitution-minded President, y'all shoulda thrown in behind Fred from the beginning. Maybe then we wouldn't be realistically looking at having McCain or Clinton as our next President. :flame:

[jayson]

Do you understand that the Islamofascists haven't laid down yet? They declared war upon us, and that war is not over.If we walk off the field, they WILL bring the fight to us.
By that logic, we are doomed to fight them for eternity.

We are at war with an enemy who attacked us here, who continue in active efforts to attack us here as well as engaging actively on the field of battle in the middle east, and who continue to state their intention to destroy the US.It is my belief that if we truly wanted to extinguish terrorism, we have much more subtle and powerful means to go about it. That may be through special forces, economic means or espionage. History has proven time and again that a standing army cannot defeat guerrillas. Our occupation has given groups like the Taliban or al Qaeda the boon of radically increased recruitment. Before, "nuts" like Bin Laden had been dismissed by the Islamic world as he kept yapping about American imperialism. Now, they are seeing it firsthand and wish to join the fight.

If he couldn't lead in his many years in Congress, what makes you think he will lead from the White House?It's hard to lead in Congress when you actually follow the written law. If you haven't noticed lately, Congress seems to be made up more of crooks, liars and thieves than statesmen.

We finish the job, or it will finish us.I guarantee you, if we keep borrowing $3 billion a day from China and Japan to fund this war, all while printing more money here at home, we will see the end of America far sooner than a ragtag group of ragheads with a deathwish.

This is not about petty envy over the high school prom date you didn't get!
I'm sorry you didn't understand the analogy, I tried to water it down as best I could. Apparently you still didn't get it.

We at the top best watch where we step... it's a long fall to the bottom.

[Timberwolf]

...and Thomas, that Jib-Jab was a RIOT!! ROTF!!!

[jayson]

Since WHEN do we have to declare war to PROTECT ourselves from those who have already declared war upon us?

Since 1787.

The suicide pact, to which you refer, will only be realized if we end our efforts in the ME prematurely. I don't like us being over there any more than the next guy, but if we bring the troops home anytime soon, 9/11 is gonna look like happy hour at 6 Flags in comparison. MARK MY WORDS.

It's been realized since it was adopted over 200 years ago... yet now we insist on abandoning its principles until this war is over?

When THIS country was founded, how long did it take US to get our act together? Yeah, and WE took the initiative to throw off the chains of oppression...get a grip on reality, will you please?

Exactly, we, the people of the United States took responsibility and threw the chains away. The French or Spanish didn't invade and do it for us. We had to do it on our own.

Yeah...when said people have been living under oppression for 1400 years...yeah...real easy there Sport. Did you ever stop to think that "hmmmm, maybe they don't know HOW to 'grab the branch of liberty'"? Nah, didn't think so.

Exactly my point, TW. They don't know what democracy is... nor does it look much like they want it. Why do we insist on forcing it on a people that can neither comprehend it nor appreciate it for what it stands for?

We seem to now think that it should be our duty and burden to spread democracy around the world at all cost. This sounds eerily like Soviet Russia's plan to spread communism throughout the world... of course we all remember how that turned out.

[Jack_Savage]

By that logic, we are doomed to fight them for eternity.



By your logic anytime the going gets tough we should quit. Detente with Al-Quida, only Ron Paul could come up with that and still look himself in the mirror.

How many skin-heads are in the Ron Paul campaign? Is it really just a hate Israel gathering?

[jayson]

By your logic anytime the going gets tough we should quit. Detente with Al-Quida, only Ron Paul could come up with that and still look himself in the mirror.

How many skin-heads are in the Ron Paul campaign? Is it really just a hate Israel gathering?

If I thought you would adhere to sense and reason, Democrat4Romney, I might respond with a well thought out rebuttal to your slanderous assertions... but since you tend to let others do the thinking for you, I will save you the brain ache of having to do it for yourself.

[Timberwolf]

Jayson isn't just drinking the kool-aid, he's chugging it...

[ThomasMore]

By that logic, we are doomed to fight them for eternity.

Not so. I haven't said it, and it isn't a logical conclusion.

We aren't still fighting World War II, and we had three tough and determined enemies with other proxies there. Postwar reconstruction involved rooting out old Nazis and Imperial Japanese, and some of them were snipers and killers.

The difference between then and now is that the entire United States was fully committed to the war effort, even when it was going badly (which it did for 3 years, with hundreds of thousands of American servicemen killed).

We aren't still fighting the cold war, which started only 3 years after the end of WW II with the Berlin Blockade, and only ended with the fall of the USSR during Bush 41's administration. You want to talk fatigue? We had just finished World War II and entered the occupation period, rebuilding Japan under Gen. MacArthur and de-Nazifying Europe. Roosevelt's erstwhile ally Joseph Stalin promptly declared all of Eastern Europe his in 1948 and aided Mao Zedong in crushing the Republic of China's government with the Communist Party in 1949. His proxy in Korea, Kim Il-Sung attempted to overturn that country's government with a military coup.

That war didn't really end until 1991. Three years after the fall of Germany and Japan, we got involved in a 43-year conflict. But with the notable exception of North Korea, it is over.

The Vietnam War was lost in large part because of fractured support within the United States. If it had been fought with the determination that WW II had been fought, it would have ended in victory. Instead, after the Americans withdrew, hundreds of thousands of people were killed by the Communists, who demonstrated their usual ruthlessness. Our decision to withdraw betrayed those who supported us and allowed that country to descend into unchecked Communism. For that, I blame those who worked within our own country to undermine our war effort and who thought that tyrants and killers are less evil than those who fight them.

That lengthy bit of 20th Century history was to make one simple point. Wars aren't won on a schedule, and sometimes they are tough, dirty and fatiguing. But the only way to win a war is to fight it wholeheartedly.

The enemy is certainly doing that today. The United States has the ability to win this war, by progressively cutting off, killing and marginalizing the terrorists until they are in the fringes and unacceptable to their own societies and political leaders. But if we coddle those who support terrorists (a la Jimmy Carter) and if we don't kill the terrorists, then we won't beat them. The war was already declared by them.

What Ron Paul is trying to do today is just what this country did in Vietnam. No thanks.

It is my belief that if we truly wanted to extinguish terrorism, we have much more subtle and powerful means to go about it. That may be through special forces, economic means or espionage. History has proven time and again that a standing army cannot defeat guerrillas.

Really? And what are your qualifications for saying so?

I can spin plenty of theories how to better fight the GWOT, too. I can also tell astronauts how to better fly the Space Shuttle, surgeons how to better attack deadly cancers and cardiovascular disease, and plenty of other things.

But my theories don't mean anything if I haven't studied the field, and if I haven't applied my hand to it, including the making of mistakes.

Was everything done perfectly, looking back with 20/20 hindsight? Of course not. Every effort involves the making of mistakes and taking wrong turns.

From my experience in two professions, people make mistakes every day, even when they know what they are doing: Lawyers misread cases, misread clients, and try strategies that don't work. Pilots make mis-evaluate the weather and make other mistakes regularly, and we learn from them (the reason aviation is so safe is that the backups highlight the mistakes early and give pilots plenty of outs -- part of the experience is learning how to identify problems and weighing the various outs).

Even when you know your job, you will try things that don't work.

Then somebody sitting on the sidelines will say, "Well, I would have done it better!" It is irritating when it comes from somebody who doesn't even know what the tools are, what the costs of using each tool are (financial, diplomatic, and in outside consequences), and what the limitations of each tool are.

Our occupation has given groups like the Taliban or al Qaeda the boon of radically increased recruitment. Before, "nuts" like Bin Laden had been dismissed by the Islamic world as he kept yapping about American imperialism. Now, they are seeing it firsthand and wish to join the fight.

Not so. The surge has been causing the reverse effect. The one thing that will cause the Iraqis who are standing up to go back into hiding, and which will embolden al Qaeda, is to announce our departure.

It's hard to lead in Congress when you actually follow the written law. If you haven't noticed lately, Congress seems to be made up more of crooks, liars and thieves than statesmen.

:roar: :roar:

That was unintentionally hilarious.

"RP is unable to lead in Congress because nobody will follow the law, so let's give him a bigger job where it gets even tougher."

Say you are hiring a coach for a NFL team, and a man comes to you from a college team. You ask him about his 1 and 8 record last year, and he tells you that the other teams don't play fair. Are you telling me that THAT is your man for the job?

Demonstrate the ability to lead on a small scale before you ask for the job on a larger scale.

I guarantee you, if we keep borrowing $3 billion a day from China and Japan to fund this war, all while printing more money here at home, we will see the end of America far sooner than a ragtag group of ragheads with a deathwish.

From a financial standpoint, the war is expensive. But that is not the reason this government is going into debt. It has done it every single year for generations -- Congress ALWAYS spends more money than it takes in. Limiting taxes only puts a brake on how much it can spend. Raise taxes, and watch Congress spend more.

The cost of the war is just an excuse to get out and re-Vietnam us. If we pull out today, you know Congress will come up with thousands of ways to spend the "peace dividend." You already know this is true.

As for the "ragtag group of ragheads with a deathwish," as you put it, they have already shown the resourcefulness to kill 3,000 Americans, to set up radioactive bomb plots and to try to get their hands on nukes, to blow up commuter trains and engage in numerous other murderous plots.

If you think that they aren't willing to use chemical or biological weapons, to hijack or blow up other airliners, or to put a nuke in a container and sail it into our ports, you are deadly mistaken. Think about what a nuke or a chemical weapons attack could do to New York, Chicago, Washington or LA. Think what it would do to our economic infrastructure.

I'm sorry you didn't understand the analogy, I tried to water it down as best I could. Apparently you still didn't get it.

Don't insult my intelligence. I understood it perfectly. You were insinuating without evidence that somehow our "meddling" in foreign affairs aggrieved the innocent Islamofascist mass murderers, that we have only ourselves to blame.

Look at our recent history. In Kosovo and Bosnia/Herzegovina, what country came to the defense of Muslims against the Serbian (and to a lesser extent, the Croatian) butchers? The US defended the Muslims.

In Afghanistan, who helped the Muslim Mujahideen defend themselves against the Soviet invaders? The US assisted the Muslims.

Following the recent Tsunami that devastated Muslim Indonesia, as well as other nations, which nation sent aid to help them? The US assisted and protected the Muslims, and others.

Which nation has traded with, and sent food, construction and financial aid for decades to poor countries throughout Africa, south Asia and the Pacific? The United States.

No nation in the history of the world has been more generous. No nation in the history of the world has shed more of its own blood for the protection of others.

The Islamofascists who are butchers and tyrants of their own people, and who will kill anyone who doesn't follow their particular brand of fascism AND obey their power structure, are more than happy to export murder. They don't need an excuse, although they will manufacture as many as you will drink up.

When Jimmy Carter actively supported the (also Soviet-supported) Ayatollah Khomenei to oust Shah (the word is merely Persian for "King") Muhammad Reza Pahlavi from Iran, he ushered in the era of State-sponsored terrorism. His ineffectual response to a monster of his own making told the fascists that the US was a paper tiger, reinforcing the message of Vietnam.

When Reagan pulled out of Beirut and let Jesse Jackson negotiate for a hostage's release, we again reinforced the message of weakness, and we helped Hezbollah get more firmly established in then-Christian Lebanon.

When GHW Bush pulled out of Baghdad without finishing the job, he sent the message to Hussein and to the rest of the world that the United States couldn't be taken seriously.

When Bill Clinton responded to UBL's first attacks with lawyers and a few cruise missiles, he reinforced the message that the US would not respond to terrorism seriously.

Being nice to murderers hasn't worked. It can't work. They have to be destroyed.

[HomeschoolrsRUs]

Not just ditto, but DITTO! to what ThomasMore and Timberwolf said. I suggest, highly recommend, and STRONGLY urge you to read their posts and links again, multiple times if necessary, until you GET IT.

I will not vote for a man who would cut and run, who would REFUSE funding our military men and women during a time of war, and who would put the national security of this country at SEVERE risk by HIDING BEHIND his WRONG "interpretation" of the Constitution.

[Rhino]

I do find it funny that I am far more conservative than some here...And we find it funny that you actually believe that. Funny stuff all around! :lol: