Ethanol policy threatens to starve the world

[DoctorDoom]

Drought. War. Poverty.

These are leading causes of hunger, according to the United Nations. Soon we may add another.

Ethanol.

Across the globe, people are discovering it's a new contributor to world hunger. Led by the United States, governments are paying companies billions to make ethanol from corn and other crops. The result: these crops are diverted from the food supply, creating artificial shortages and higher prices.

Even record harvests haven't suppressed food prices. Instead, prices are soaring to all-time highs.

Corn that traded around $2 a bushel just two years ago is now well over $5 a bushel. The impact ripples through the food chain of milk, butter, eggs, flour, pasta and everything else, because dairy cattle, beef cattle, poultry and swine depend on the corn for their feed. When chicken feed doesn't cost chicken feed anymore, then neither does anything else.Ethanol policy threatens to starve the world (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?pageId=57062)

All praise Saint AlBore and the ecowackos for their great wisdom in forcing a meaningless policy that will cause starvation. Thanks, you ignorant arschlochs! :rolleyes:

[Taylor1]

Whats new? Liberals don't think anything through... ending the war, yes it'll save lives, but who's lives will it save then who's actually have important lives? The towel heads being killed or the American people? THIS IS A HARD ONE!

[Un Con Troll Able]

Algae-based biofuel holds great promise.

[Riverboat]

The road to hell is paved with environmentalists with good intentions.

[Un Con Troll Able]

...and so is paying Arab dictatorships and terrorist states $400 billion every year to buy their damn oil.

I am sick of listening to the knee-jerk neocon (NOT conservative -- NEOCON!!!) hatred for "environmentalists." I want clean air to breath! I want clean water to drink! I want clean beaches, rivers, and streams. And, most of all, I want to be able to tell OPEC and it's terrorist-funding brethren to piss off and eat their damn oil!!!! I am sick of this country compromising its national ethic and morality just so it can look the other way while our oil sponsors use our oil revenues to crap all over everything American and force us into a sickening ballet with them.

If that makes me an "environmentalist," then so be it!!!!! If it makes me a "tree-hugger," then so be it!!!! What does it say about our damn conservative values when we thumb our noses at legitimate environmental and energy concerns to the point where we are willing to pay countries who openly despise us and slaughter our citizens hundreds of billions of dollars each year just so we can thumb our noses at "wishy-washy tree-huggers"?

For less than one-third of what we have spent trying to save those fool towelheads in Iraq from themselves, we could have converted this entire country to algae-based biofuel. There are American companies out there who have demonstrated the consistent ability to produce from 80,000 to 200,000 gallons of biofuel per acre of algae (if you don't believe me, Google "algae biofuel"). Using about five to ten percent of the land area that we use to produce our food every year, we could become completely energy self-sufficient. It doesn't have any special storage or transportation requirements -- and can be used in diesel engines without any engine modifications.

You boys and girls better run yourselves a reality check. Unless you want to be paying $15 for a gallon of gasoline within a decade -- a process that will eventually (and permanently) destroy our economy while giving our enemies the power of life and death over us and our children -- then this is something that we have NO CHOICE about doing.

As I said, if that makes me an "environmentalist"...

...then so be it.

This conservative (a TRUE conservative) is not going to knee-jerk goose-step this country into economic and cultural oblivion just to support neocon rhetoric.

[MrSanity]

I'll take solar, nuclear, and even wind energy, but to think that corn ethanol has any sign of improving the economy is wishful thinking and downright stupidity. Yes, the government has the power to fund the sciences, but let's be responsible and use it to advance innovations that won't permanently disrupt the economy, and that hold promises for profits and job creation.

[BabyBeastie]

Ethanol is crap. Plus, it takes a lot of energy to manufacture.

Gasoline engines can run very cleanly. My last smog check report showed that the air coming out of the tailpipes is cleaner than the air we breathe.

I don't normally agree with communist dictators, but Fidel Castro said we shouldn't be using food for fuel.

Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

[BabyBeastie]

...and so is paying Arab dictatorships and terrorist states $400 billion every year to buy their damn oil.

I am sick of listening to the knee-jerk neocon (NOT conservative -- NEOCON!!!) hatred for "environmentalists." I want clean air to breath! I want clean water to drink! I want clean beaches, rivers, and streams. And, most of all, I want to be able to tell OPEC and it's terrorist-funding brethren to piss off and eat their damn oil!!!! I am sick of this country compromising its national ethic and morality just it can look the other way while our oil sponsors use our oil revenues to crap all over everything American and force us into a sickening ballet with them.

If that makes me an "environmentalist," then so be it!!!!! If it makes me a "tree-hugger," then so be it!!!! What does it say about our damn conservative values when we thumb our noses at legitimate environmental and energy concerns to the point where we are willing to pay countries who openly despise us and slaughter our citizens hundreds of billions of dollars each year just so we can thumb our noses at "wishy-washy tree-huggers"?

For less than one-third of what we have spent trying to save those fool towelheads in Iraq from themselves, we could have converted this entire country to algae-based biofuel. There are American companies out there who have demonstrated the consistent ability to produce from 80,000 to 200,000 gallons of biofuel per acre of algae (if you don't believe me, Google "algae biofuel"). Using about five to ten percent of the land area that we use to produce our food every year, we could become completely energy self-sufficient. It doesn't have any special storage or transportation requirements -- and can be used in diesel engines without any engine modifications.

You boys and girls better run yourselves a reality check. Unless you want to be paying $15 for a gallon of gasoline within a decade -- a process that will eventually (and permanently) destroy our economy while giving our enemies the power of life and death over us and our children -- then this something that we have NO CHOICE about doing.

As I said, if that makes me an "environmentalist"...

...then so be it.

This conservative (a TRUE conservative) is not going to knee-jerk goose-step this country into economic and cultural oblivion just to support neocon rhetoric.I don't think it makes you an environmentalist, but I think it's also bad that we're not allowed to drill for and use our own oil.

[Wolfcounsel]

"Yes, the government has the power to fund the sciences, but let's be responsible and use it to advance innovations that won't permanently disrupt the economy, and that hold promises for profits and job creation." --MrSanity


Anybody out there who thinks the government is being benevolent toward humanity with this "little sacrifice" with food is going to be in for the big shit sandwich. All the assholes involved in the ethanol program are"damned if they are not going to make a huge profit from this" at the expense of the mere peasants who are funding the program. They are conniving SOBs all, and if any want proof or evidence, get it yourself, because this is my opinion, and you're welcome to it.<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

[Oldeshooter]

Bush's tribute to the midwest farming conglomerates. Making fuel out of edible products is asinine and hasn't done a damn thing for the price of gas. Ethanol can be made from weeds.

[Wyatt_Junker]

...and so is paying Arab dictatorships and terrorist states $400 billion every year to buy their damn oil.

I am sick of listening to the knee-jerk neocon (NOT conservative -- NEOCON!!!) hatred for "environmentalists." I want clean air to breath! I want clean water to drink! I want clean beaches, rivers, and streams. And, most of all, I want to be able to tell OPEC and it's terrorist-funding brethren to piss off and eat their damn oil!!!! I am sick of this country compromising its national ethic and morality just so it can look the other way while our oil sponsors use our oil revenues to crap all over everything American and force us into a sickening ballet with them.

If that makes me an "environmentalist," then so be it!!!!! If it makes me a "tree-hugger," then so be it!!!! What does it say about our damn conservative values when we thumb our noses at legitimate environmental and energy concerns to the point where we are willing to pay countries who openly despise us and slaughter our citizens hundreds of billions of dollars each year just so we can thumb our noses at "wishy-washy tree-huggers"?

For less than one-third of what we have spent trying to save those fool towelheads in Iraq from themselves, we could have converted this entire country to algae-based biofuel. There are American companies out there who have demonstrated the consistent ability to produce from 80,000 to 200,000 gallons of biofuel per acre of algae (if you don't believe me, Google "algae biofuel"). Using about five to ten percent of the land area that we use to produce our food every year, we could become completely energy self-sufficient. It doesn't have any special storage or transportation requirements -- and can be used in diesel engines without any engine modifications.

You boys and girls better run yourselves a reality check. Unless you want to be paying $15 for a gallon of gasoline within a decade -- a process that will eventually (and permanently) destroy our economy while giving our enemies the power of life and death over us and our children -- then this is something that we have NO CHOICE about doing.

As I said, if that makes me an "environmentalist"...

...then so be it.

This conservative (a TRUE conservative) is not going to knee-jerk goose-step this country into economic and cultural oblivion just to support neocon rhetoric.

Of course conservatives are environmentalists, its just that the rheotric has been so poorly managed on our side that everyone believes that Barbara Boxer must wear a hunting jacket on weekends.

And I am sure she even wears her sporty gold lamé high heels also, you know, when she's hiking up the John Muir trail because she's so eco-conscious and shit. Because they match her shiny gold space age power jacket, the one with a thousand sequins composed of tiny calculator lithium ion batteries glued onto ocelot skin. It makes for great wind resistance when she's out on the Patagonia or driving sled dogs up in the great white north.

Yeah, 'crats are really into the environment in the same way that Clinton was for the poor, blacks. He had an office in Harlem to prove it. In the same way that John Edwards is for the little man whenever he's chilling in the mansion or suing doctors so that the little man can't afford health insurance.

See how this works?

[Un Con Troll Able]

Uhhh...yeah.

[Timberwolf]

Conservatives are NOT environmentalists!! WE are CONSERVATIONISTS. Big farkin' difference.

We realize nature serves us and that we are to be good stewards of our environment.

Environmentalists dictate that WE serve nature and that humanity must play a secondary role to nature in ALL things.

[Wolfcounsel]

Let me see. An environmentalwhacko wants all humans except him off the planet so that the environment can be unspoiled except by him. A conservationist knows he shares the planet with the animals, and he cannot and will not royally screw around to his heart's content. A termite is a human that cares about development and profit only and says that the environment can be damned for riches' sake. I think I got it.

[DesertFox]

I am sick of listening to the knee-jerk neocon (NOT conservative -- NEOCON!!!) hatred for "environmentalists." I want clean air to breath! I want clean water to drink! I want clean beaches, rivers, and streams. And, most of all, I want to be able to tell OPEC and it's terrorist-funding brethren to piss off and eat their damn oil!!!! I am sick of this country compromising its national ethic and morality just so it can look the other way while our oil sponsors use our oil revenues to crap all over everything American and force us into a sickening ballet with them. If you think neocons are to blame for bad air, dirty water, beaches and streams, you're a space cadet. If you think oil companies are responsible for those evils, you need to get back to the Mother Ship and recharge your batteries.

The market is the best determiner of how to clean things up, of the way to get lower prices, etc. If you want govt in ANY of this, YOU are part of the problem. Neocons aren't. Neocons want the freakin' govt OUT of business.

Big Oil is NOT part of the prollem. It's the solution. Keep the govt out of the oil bidness and Big Oil will resolve high gas prices.

[DoctorDoom]

I am sick of listening to the knee-jerk neocon (NOT conservative -- NEOCON!!!) hatred for "environmentalists." I want clean air to breath! I want clean water to drink! I want clean beaches, rivers, and streams.
And I suppose that you believe that "neocons" DON't. What farking evil monsters those demonic "neocons" are, working zealously 24/7 for polluted air to breathe, filthy water to drink, befouled beaches, rivers, and streams. And what the hell do THEY care? They get into their flying saucers every day after work and return to their own pristine planet after destroying Earth.

Sweet Gaia, would mere execution be sufficient? They should be tortured to death over ten years for their unspeakable devastation of Mommy Earth. Egad!

What does it say about our damn conservative values when we thumb our noses at legitimate environmental and energy concerns ...What does it say about our whiny-ass critics who don't have a nanoclue about the real world of energy supply and demand, and who live in LaLaLand where tastefully landscaped windmills and solar panels provide mankind with gazillions of gigawatt hours of power, and people cavort naked in flowery meadows, communing with the birds and bees and fuzzy bunnies.

If you think we don't have "legitimate environmental and energy concerns", then why don't you outline for us how humanity is going to forever end its dependence on petrochemicals for power and numerous non-fuel uses.

And BTW, are you one of those Gorebots who "thinks" that mankind has created global warming and only mankind can stop it? If so, I have a deal for you.

<table align="center" bgcolor="white" bordercolor="#CCCCCC" border="4" cellpadding="8"><tr><td><div align="center"><font face="Times New Roman" color="navy" size="7"><b>~~ <u>DEED</u> ~~</font><br><br><font size="4"><i>This is to certify that DoctorDoom is the legal owner<br>of the structure known as the Brooklyn Bridge, and<br>is authorized to sell it at any time.</i><br><br></font><font size="1" color="crimson">New York City Buildings Commission, 2008</font></b></div></td></tr></table>

For less than one-third of what we have spent trying to save those fool towelheads in Iraq from themselves, we could have converted this entire country to algae-based biofuel.And we should believe that because? Every proponent of every "alternative" fuel has stars in his eyes and not a clue in his mind, and truly believes that Earth can become Eden if only we will adopt his world-saving energy source du jour.

There are American companies out there who have demonstrated the consistent ability to produce from 80,000 to 200,000 gallons of biofuel per acre of algae ...The oil yield per unit area of algae is estimated to be 5,000 to 20,000 gallons per acre, per year (4.6 to 18.4 l/m2 Algaculture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algaculture)

A single acre of algae ponds can produce 15,000 gallons of biodiesel -- in comparison, an acre of soybeans produces up to 50 gallons of biodiesel per acre, an acre of jatropha produces up to 200 gallons per acre, coconuts produce just under 300 gallons per acre, and palm oil -- currently the best non-algal source -- produces up to 650 gallons of biodiesel per acre. That is to say, algae is 25 times better a source for biodiesel than palm oil, and 300 times better than soy.Turning Emissions Into Fuel With Algae (http://www.worldchanging.com/archives/003999.html)

Soybeans produce about 50 gallons of oil per acre per year, and canola produces about 130, he said. Algae, however, produces about 4,000 gallons per acre a year, and he predicted it will go far beyond that. He said algae requires only sunshine and non-drinkable water to grow. The demonstration pond showed that algae will grow even when temperatures fall below zero.MSU researcher finds renewed interest in turning algae into fuel (http://www.physorg.com/news119626963.html)

You claim "80,000 to 200,000 gallons of biofuel per acre of algae". None of the articles that I found contain estimates even close to that. Somebody is way the hell off, and logic says it's not the articles.

(if you don't believe me, Google "algae biofuel").I did, and I'm not greatly impressed.

Using about five to ten percent of the land area that we use to produce our food every year, we could become completely energy self-sufficient.That gives the impression that they stop growing food and start growing algae, and harvest it like wheat. Uh ... say what?

HERE is how algae is grown.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v349/DocDoom777/Energy-Eco/AlgaeOpenPond600.jpg

Algae requires water. The most efficient way is "open-pond" farms similar to the CG image above, where rows upon rows of water-filled tanks are used to grow the stuff. Read the Wiki article, which goes into some detail about the methodology and the many considerations. It's not a cheap and quick fix. And it will NOT replace petrofuels any time soon, if ever.

It doesn't have any special storage or transportation requirements -- and can be used in diesel engines without any engine modifications.All well and good, but the large majority of vehicles in the US are not diesel-powered. They require gasoline, not biodeisel fuel. There are then two choices.

1. Continue to make gasoline for the vehicles.
2. Pass laws to mandate switching every vehicle to a diesel engine or force the consumers to buy new cars.

We know what the pain-in-the-ass ecowackos would choose (at least until it becomes practical, after which they would oppose it), but reality dictates #1 for a long time to come.

You boys and girls better run yourselves a reality check.You speak to us of reality while pulling statistics out of your butt to support a pie-in-the-sky "alternative" that thusfar has not proven to be anything more than a supplementary energy source. You will find no one here who will downplay the usefulness of any "alternative", but you WILL find that we don't buy the snake oil rhetoric.

Unless you want to be paying $15 for a gallon of gasoline within a decade ...We may very well be doing that thanks to the ecowacko assholes who have all but paralyzed America's exploitation of its own prodigious resources of petrofuel.

... a process that will eventually (and permanently) destroy our economy ...If you want to see the real economic peril that we face, look no further than the Goregasmic worship of Saint AlBore and his junk-science religion.

... while giving our enemies the power of life and death over us and our children -- then this is something that we have NO CHOICE about doing.If you're worried about what those barbarians might do because of oil, give some thought to what they did on 9/11/2001 without the merest relationship to oil. If you want to free us from that worry, then agree that if push comes to shove, annihilate the camel-humpers and take the oil. Hell, if it weren't for US technology, their black gold would still be untouched and they'd be living in tents.

This conservative (a TRUE conservative) is not going to knee-jerk goose-step this country into economic and cultural oblivion just to support neocon rhetoric.<table align="center" bgcolor="800000" bordercolor="#CCCCCC" border="4" cellpadding="8"><tr><td><div align="center"><font face="Verdana" color="ffff80" size="7"><b>(waves paw) Bah!<font size="1" color="800000"><br>-</font></b></font></div></td></tr></table>

[DesertFox]

I'm afraid Un Con Troll Able is to the Right what Algore types are to the Left.

[Wyatt_Junker]

I don't even know what a 'neocon' is.

It was a word invented about 8 years ago after Buchanan had anal sex with Ralph Nader.

[Kathekon]

I thought that if the price for grain went up, people would plant more of it.

I guess global warming , the shrinking ozone layer and/or the lack of Hope For Change We Can Believe In Even If We Don't Have a Clue What That Means or How to Do It must have caused economic laws of supply and demand to stop working.

Are those damn neocons undoing the law of gravity too? I need updates ASAP.

[Un Con Troll Able]

Egad, Doc. For you...the solution is drill, drill, and drill. There is NO WAY we could ever make up for the imported oil supplies no matter how many holes we drill. But I suppose we'll just keep sending hundreds of billions of dollars overseas each year until we're either outbid for oil import contracts or some country pulls its supplies from our market. Then where will we be?

Even if you rely on the 4,000 gallons per acre per year figure, the project is doable (for about $200 - $300 billion). We send about $400 billion overseas every year buying oil. I never said it would be cheap (and that includes conversion to diesel), but this is more than about money. It is about our national dignity.

We send our money to murderers of our people. I prefer to focus my righteous indignation on that sickening notion rather than "enviro-whackos."

[Lubbock]

I just looked into my crystal ball.

I see a CLUEPON in Un Con's future.

[Timberwolf]

You 'n' me both, Lub.

UCTA...we have enough oil in capped wells in the USA to support our own demand for 3-4 centuries. All we have to do is uncap them and start pumping. Mind you, our REAL problem is our lack of refiining capacity and LACK of dependence upon nuclear power.

Anyway, Doc will be along shortly with the aforementioned cluepon.

[Riverboat]

I see a CLUEPON in Un Con's future.Ah, so I'm not alone after all in calling BS on his posts.

[Un Con Troll Able]

You 'n' me both, Lub.

UCTA...we have enough oil in capped wells in the USA to support our own demand for 3-4 centuries. All we have to do is uncap them and start pumping. Mind you, our REAL problem is our lack of refiining capacity and LACK of dependence upon nuclear power.

Anyway, Doc will be along shortly with the aforementioned cluepon.


Translation: Our daddy is gonna git you!

Talk about pathetic.

Let's see...20 million barrels domestic consumption per day, times 365, times 400. That's 2.9 trillion barrels of oil. And that assumes zero growth in domestic consumption for those centuries (yeah, right). If you actually believe we have that much available, then you are absolutely delusional.

[Un Con Troll Able]

I just looked into my crystal ball.

I see a CLUEPON in Un Con's future.


Whatever, giggle and grin. Try looking at reality instead of a crystal ball.

[Un Con Troll Able]

Ah, so I'm not alone after all in calling BS on his posts.


You want me to call your mommy so she come over and breastfeed you?

[DoctorDoom]

In answer to requests ...

<table align="center" bgcolor="FFFFFF" bordercolor="CCCCCC" border="4" cellpadding="8"><tr><td><div align="center"><font face="Verdana" color="600000" size="7"><b>* CLUEPON *<br><font size="5">This cluepon entitles the bearer to<br>one free clue at any local retailer.<br><font size="3">Valid worldwide. No expiration date.</font><br></font></b> </font></div></td></tr></table>

Egad, Doc. For you...the solution is drill, drill, and drill.And yours is to leave our domestic petroleum resources in the ground and chase after the wild geese of "alternative" energy sources. Is that about it?

There is NO WAY we could ever make up for the imported oil supplies no matter how many holes we drill.So because we can't supply 100% of our oil needs by next week, we shouldn't drill any holes. Ever. Typical ecoloony "logic".

But I suppose we'll just keep sending hundreds of billions of dollars overseas each year until we're either outbid for oil import contracts or some country pulls its supplies from our market. Then where will we be?You've already told us where you want us to be: sitting with our thumbs up our asses wondering where we can go to replace the lost supplies while prodigious resources of oil in our own country are untapped because we're allowing ecowacko assholes to dictate our energy policy.

Even if you rely on the 4,000 gallons per acre per year figure, the project is doable (for about $200 - $300 billion).I have no argument for NOT doing it. However, the assumption that it can totally replace petrofuels is sheer fantasy.

We send about $400 billion overseas every year buying oil.Even assuming that your unsourced figure is valid, that is not an argument against the use of petrofuels. IAC, if we had been finding and exploiting our domestic supplies instead of kissing the asses of the enviroloonies, that figure would be drastically reduced.

I never said it would be cheap (and that includes conversion to diesel), but this is more than about money. It is about our national dignity.I challenge you to find on the spreadsheets and balance sheets a column headed "dignity". That is NOT a consideration in economic calculations. Philosophical and ideological concepts don't affect bottom lines.

As for the "conversion to diesel", who will mandate that? Who will tell those of us who drive gasoline-fueled vehicles that we must abandon them in favor of diesels? And what will be the political fates of those who try to impose it on the country?

Dignity will be at the bottom of the list of issues.

We send our money to murderers of our people. I prefer to focus my righteous indignation on that sickening notion rather than "enviro-whackos."Ever see a listing of the countries that supply our petro resources? On this page (http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/company_level_imports/current/import.html), show us how many of those countries are "murderers of our people". Of the 15 countries listed on the page in each category, only Saudi Arabia is a significant, presently irreplaceable, mideast source, and AFAIK, the Saudis aren't yet murdering our people.

[Maggie_T]

Whatever, giggle and grin. Try looking at reality instead of a crystal ball.

After you, dear.

Yes, I'm another of those who think drill, drill, drill is the answer. Timberwolf already mentioned our vast supplies of domestic oil, which cannot be drilled because the eco-nazis want to force people to shiver to death in winter, and ride bicycles year round, in defference to Mother Gaia ... oh, beg your pardon. I mean, so that you can breath clean air, and drink clean water, and all that.

Uncontrollable (what an apt name), a word of advice, ducky. And I'm old enough to be your mother, so pay attention because it's good advice.

Don't believe everything eco-nazis ... pardon me, environmentalists tell you.

Environmentalists don't give a bleeping bleep about the environment, clean water, and clean air. No, really. Bear with me for a while. What the bastards really want is to get rid of their eternal nemesis: Big Companies. :eek: Uhhhhhh! And they have found a great way to do that and at the same time, look like "they care."

In reality, they don't care one hoot. What they want is to get rid of the above-mentioned companies because environmentalists are nothing but commies in disguise and they HATE anyone who makes money. Big companies make big money, so they have to go. It's that simple.

And so, eco-nazis go about tearing their hair and beating their chest over water, air, and little furry animals, because they KNOW that people like you will fall for that sort of thing line, hook, and sinker.

And you did.

Don't get me wrong, ducky. I know you're a good guy, so you care about water, air, and little furry animals. Eco-nazis know that. And so, they scare you shitless with their hysterical doom and gloom predictions, and global warming cults, and all that, so that you'll join their cult and hysterically demand that we find "alternative energy" and "stop paying Arabs for oil," and all those things that make you sound like such a nice guy. In reality, all you are doing is helping the bastards to put big companies out of business, which is the real goal of eco-nazis.

You're not a bad guy, Uncontrollable. No, I really believe it. You're just a little, well, too gullible for your own good, that's all. But we like you anyway.

Next time, just take eco-nazis with a healthy dose of salt, ok? No, really. Listen to mommy. Mommy knows.

[DoctorDoom]

Translation: Our daddy is gonna git you!

Talk about pathetic.What a dazzling example of repartee! How witty, incisive and brutal! :rolleyes:

Let's see...20 million barrels domestic consumption per day, times 365, times 400. That's 2.9 trillion barrels of oil. And that assumes zero growth in domestic consumption for those centuries (yeah, right). If you actually believe we have that much available, then you are absolutely delusional.Our untapped resources are enormous. But thanks to the Sierra Club, FOE, and the rest of the clueless "small is beautiful" fools, and their political butt-smoochers in DC and the statehouses, we are unlikely to see a quart of it.

TW's estimate is probably correct, although what our energy sources will be in 2408 are as unfathomable as our present evergy mix would have been in 1608. Hell, we couldn't have predicted it in 1908.

The likelihood that we will still rely heavily on petrofuel is very low. And it's probable that by then, having proven that oil is in fact NOT from dead dinosaurs and prehistoric vegetation, but from ongoing natural processes (http://www.oralchelation.com/faq/wsj4.htm), we could synthesize it on demand for uses where it is needed.

One thing is certain: algae biodiesel fuel is not going to save humanity.

[Rhino]

This isn't an exclusive equation. We need not, and should not, rely on only one remedy. Yes, we should drill. We should also expand refinery capacity, use nuclear power as much as possible, explore alternative fuels and continue to address better energy efficiency with all of our usage. In short, the answer is "all of the above". There is no one single panacea answer, at least not yet.

[DoctorDoom]

Just so. Exploit ALL resources, but have no illusion that any one of them will replace any other one. Biofuels are valuable, but they won't replace petrofuels.

[Rhino]

Correct, and we shouldn't be excluding any solutions either.

[DoctorDoom]

'Ceptin that newkewlar power stuff what kin make the whole urth radiumactive for ten gazillion years if they's a meltdown.

[Rhino]

Ban meltdowns. Problem solved. Works for guns, right? :lol:

[DoctorDoom]

Yeah, you hold on to that "vast supplies of domestic oil" nonsense.And you subscribe to the ignorant bullshit that our oil resources consist of a gallon can in the back room of Billy Joe's Fuel & Bait Emporium.

I doubt that you've noticed, seeing that your head is firmly ensconced in your local ecowacko's aft aperture, but no one here has stated that algae-based diesel fuel should not be used. We have repeatedly said that all resources should be exploited. OTOH, you are obsessed with shutting off America's use of petrochemicals and relying exclusively on your chosen "alternative". And that, little child, is a stupid notion even from a self-admitted troll.

<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v349/DocDoom777/BB%20Pix/WCFields.jpg" />

[Timberwolf]

Translation: Our daddy is gonna git you!

Talk about pathetic.

Let's see...20 million barrels domestic consumption per day, times 365, times 400. That's 2.9 trillion barrels of oil. And that assumes zero growth in domestic consumption for those centuries (yeah, right). If you actually believe we have that much available, then you are absolutely delusional.
Let's see...ANWR, the Cali coast, Gulf of Mexico, the oil shales of the Rockies, plus the fact that "dried up" and capped oil wells are now producing again....hmmm....no, not delusional at all.

There are more than a few scientists who believe we don't know the true mechanism by which crude is produced. They believe methane (you know, the most abundant substance in the UNIVERSE), under extreme heat and pressure is formed deep within the crust and forced up into pockets in the crust.

Not saying it's true, but you're comin' off WAY to "holier-than-thou" and you don't know for sure HOW crude is truly made. I will tell you one thing, it isn't from animals...haven't been enough animal life on the planet to develeop the reserves we've found to date.

Wise up.

[Timberwolf]

Now, back to the OP of how ethanol policy is going to starve the world...especially through the use of CORN for production....

[Riverboat]

You want me to call your mommy so she come over and breastfeed you?Yes. She knows what's good for me. One teat pumps oil right out of the earth. She's so attuned to geologic karma, she draws the crude up through her feet and sprays it all over the place, coating the surface with rich black molasses. Refineries have her on standby for photo ops.

The other teat is more dangerous. It draws from the same wellspring that powers our cars, turbines, factories - the lubricant for democracy. I'm talking about natural gas. Can't see that stuff coming, so she's gotta pack it in mud to keep it down, until it can be coaxed out nice and easy. Sometimes it just boils up past the mud and I have to clamp down on the nipple with a 20K blow-out preventer.

I grew up healthy, bristling with the arrogance of king-slayers and empire builders. My baby steps took me across oceans. I slapped down Fokkers, Messerschmitts and MIGS like mosquitos. Schoolyard bullies fear me. Runty soccer players repose in my shadow.

[Naturalized-Texan]

Now, back to the OP of how ethanol policy is going to starve the world...especially through the use of CORN for production....
Yep. The use of corn and sugar cane to produce Ethanol, as mandated by Congress, is the MAJOR cause of the inflation in food prices and is a significant factor in the increased price of gasoline.

On the off-topic discussion: The estimated known reserves of oil in ANWR is enough to fuel the American economy for at least the next 20 years.

[DoctorDoom]

There are more than a few scientists who believe we don't know the true mechanism by which crude is produced. ... I will tell you one thing, it isn't from animals...haven't been enough animal life on the planet to develeop the reserves we've found to date.As overwhelming evidence to support that ...

"Isn't this transcendent?" Paul Siegele shouts as he presses his nose to the window of a Bell 430 chopper hurtling through a sky thick with rain and pitchfork lightning. We're flying over the Gulf of Mexico, above some 3,500 oil production platforms, and Siegele is pointing them out with the verve of a birder — here a miniature oil rig known as a monopod; over there a drill ship almost as big as the Titanic; still farther out, platforms looking like huge steel chandeliers that dropped out of the storm-shaken clouds.

Siegele has reason to be giddy. He works for Chevron, and his team is sitting on several new record-breaking discoveries in the Gulf, a region that many geologists believe may have more untapped oil reserves than any other part of the world. On this trip, the 48-year-old vice president for deepwater exploration has come to a rig called the Cajun Express to oversee final preparations before drilling begins on the company's 30-square-mile Tahiti field.

Looming like an Erector set version of Hellboy — with cranes for arms, a hydraulic drill for its head, and a 200-foot derrick for a body — the rig appears at once menacing and toylike. But the real spectacle is below the surface: A drill is plunging down through 4,000 feet of ocean and more than 22,000 feet of shale and sediment — a syringe prodding Earth's innermost veins. That 5-mile shaft will soon give Chevron the deepest active offshore well in the Gulf. Some land drills have gone deeper, but extracting oil from below miles of freezing salt water and unyielding sediment creates a set of technical problems that far exceed those faced on terra firma.Pumped Up: Chevron Drills Down 30,000 Feet to Tap Oil-Rich Gulf of Mexico (http://www.wired.com/cars/energy/magazine/15-09/mf_jackrig)

If oil is indeed the result of dead animals and vegetation, how did huge deposits of it get 30,000 feet down? We must assume that millions of years ago, where the oil is now was then on the surface so that life could flourish. So what catastrophic event resulted in its being buried under "more than 22,000 feet of shale and sediment", itself beneath 4000 feet of ocean? The concept strains credulity.

The only rational answer is that oil is in fact abiotic.

There is an alternative theory about the formation of oil and gas deposits that could change estimates of potential future oil reserves. According to this theory, oil is not a fossil fuel at all, but was formed deep in the Earth's crust from inorganic materials. The theory was first proposed in the 1950s by Russian and Ukranian scientists. Based on the theory, successful exploratory drilling has been undertaken in the Caspian Sea region, Western Siberia, and the Dneiper-Donets Basin.

The prevailing explanation for the formation of oil and gas deposits is that they are the remains of plant and animal life that died millions of years ago and were compressed by heat and pressure over the years. Russian and Ukranian geologists argue that formation of oil deposits requires the high pressures only found in the deep mantle and that the hydrocarbon contents in sediments do not exhibit sufficient organic material to supply the enormous amounts of petroleum found in supergiant oil fields.Abiotic Theory (http://www.enviroliteracy.org/article.php/1130.html)

Another bit of evidence:

HOUSTON -- Something mysterious is going on at Eugene Island 330.

Production at the oil field, deep in the Gulf of Mexico off the coast of Louisiana, was supposed to have declined years ago. And for a while, it behaved like any normal field: Following its 1973 discovery, Eugene Island 330's output peaked at about 15,000 barrels a day. By 1989, production had slowed to about 4,000 barrels a day.

Then suddenly -- some say almost inexplicably -- Eugene Island's fortunes reversed. The field, operated by PennzEnergy Co., is now producing 13,000 barrels a day, and probable reserves have rocketed to more than 400 million barrels from 60 million. Stranger still, scientists studying the field say the crude coming out of the pipe is of a geological age quite different from the oil that gushed 10 years ago.

Fill 'er Up

All of which has led some scientists to a radical theory: Eugene Island is rapidly refilling itself, perhaps from some continuous source miles below the Earth's surface. That, they say, raises the tantalizing possibility that oil may not be the limited resource it is assumed to be.Odd Reservoir Off Louisiana Prods Oil Experts to Seek a Deeper Meaning (http://www.oralchelation.com/faq/wsj4.htm)

As TW pointed out, the amount of oil that is in known and suspected reservoirs, added to the amount that has already been used, could not possibly have originated from ther decay of living material.

If one objects that there are millions of years worth of animals and vegetation to consider, the person must then explain how the oil accumulated thousands of feet underground during those millions of years. Or did the oil simply form oceans on the surface, waiting for a cataclysmic geological event to bury it?

And if all that living matter became oil, what became coal, another "fossil fuel".

Coal is defined as "a black or brownish black solid combustible substance formed by the partial decomposition of vegetable matter without free access of air and under the influence of moisture and often increased pressure and temperature." Coal can be burned as fuel or gasified to create a synthesis gas (syngas) that can then be used as a feedstock for the production of chemicals, fertilizer, and/or electric power.

[snip]

The United States has enormous coal resources and recoverable reserves. The most reliable information about coal is published by the Energy Information Administration (EIA). The most recent figures available from the EIA, show that America's estimated recoverable reserves of coal --

Stand at 275 billion tons, an amount that is greater than any other nation in the world.About Coal (http://www.clean-energy.us/facts/coal.htm)

Now we have the concept that all the world's oil plus all the world's coal resulted from dead flora and fauna. The notion rapidly becomes utterly preposterous.

Furthermore, tens or hundreds of millions of years of living matter did not all die simultaneously. It grew, it lived, and it died, one day at a time. And like all living matter, it rotted and disappeared, one day at a time. Even if there were a billion years of vegetation and critters, there was at any given moment only the amount that was growing at that time. At the billionth year, there was no accumulation of the leftovers from the previous 999,999,999 years.

How many years have the forests of the US been growing? Thousands? Millions? Where have all the vegetation and the animal remains from all those years gone? There's no evidence at all that they are turning into coal or oil as we speak, or that it is amassing for a future transition.

It is thus necessary to conclude that "fossil fuels" are not in fact the result of hundreds of millions of years of accumulated corpses and compost. That means that it can be manufactured, and that extends the resources into the indefinite future.

[DoctorDoom]

In order to return this thread to civility and to its topic, all posts by and about Un Con TROLL Able that do not relate to the subject have been moved to this new thread (http://www.freeconservatives.com/vb/showthread.php?t=56655) in Flame Wars.

This resulted in a few broken references. That's the way it goes in the BB business.

[Chris]

From Doc's article -

"...Ethanol.

Across the globe, people are discovering it's a new contributor to world hunger. Led by the United States, governments are paying companies billions to make ethanol from corn and other crops. The result: these crops are diverted from the food supply, creating artificial shortages and higher prices...."

.


Not only that, but according to my son who told me this well over a year ago, and who is an auto tech (and trust me he's no grease monkey yahoo like his mama, he's highly schooled and knowledgable) ethanol absolutely kills engines over time. So where does all this leave us? I can think of a number of scenarios that may be at the birth of all this nonsense. I'm sure y'all here might too.

.

[DeclinetoState]

"...Ethanol.

"Across the globe, people are discovering it's a new contributor to world hunger. Led by the United States, governments are paying companies billions to make ethanol from corn and other crops. The result: these crops are diverted from the food supply, creating artificial shortages and higher prices...."

And how many thousands if not millions of dollars were spent figuring this out? Geez, Louise, any person with an IQ at least twice that of Paris Hilton should have been able to understand this.

[DoctorDoom]

It don't matter none. The only thang lib'ruls care 'bout is feelin' good 'bout theyselves. Consequences ain't no nevermind. Only intentions is important.

[DeclinetoState]

BIOENERGY

Improving our Environment
ADM is the global leader in BioEnergy, which we define as products made from renewable feedstocks rather than from crude oil.

ADM is a recognized leader in the production of cleaner burning ethanol and biodiesel fuels. Beyond these, we are active in research to develop and commercialize the next generation of biofuels, which will include new feedstocks, new process technologies and new products which offer the potential for even better environmental footprints than today’s biofuels.

We also produce a wide variety of biobased industrial products ranging from Mirel™ bioplastics, with joint venture partner Metabolix, to renewable propylene glycol for antifreeze and plastics applications.

Learn more about the environmental benefits to using ethanol, biodiesel, Mirel bioplastics and renewable propylene glycol.ADM BioEnergy page (http://www.admworld.com/naen/about/bioenergy.asp).

:blah: :blah: :blah:

BIOENERGY

Traditional petroleum reserves are in decline. At the same time, our desire for environmental improvement is growing. BioEnergy promises to provide a reliable and steadily growing stream of renewable fuels and nature-based alternatives to petrochemicals. Is BioEnergy a better solution today? How will crops meet both our food and fuel needs? Learn more (http://www.admworld.com/naen/about/bioenergy.asp).

The link, quoted above, doesn't seem to mention anything about food, just fuel.

I remember when David Brinkley in his later years was always narrating ads for this company. I wonder how many other esteemed members of the news media have been bamboozled by this company (and will try to bamboozle us).

[Chris]

ADM BioEnergy page (http://www.admworld.com/naen/about/bioenergy.asp).


The link, quoted above, doesn't seem to mention anything about food, just fuel.



Funny thing, noticeably absent was anything about engine wear also. However, I did notice that it takes fossil fuel to produce ethanol, hmmmmm. http://www.freeconservatives.com/vb/images/smilies/brow0000.gif

[Rhino]

Not only that, but according to my son who told me this well over a year ago, and who is an auto tech (and trust me he's no grease monkey yahoo like his mama, he's highly schooled and knowledgable) ethanol absolutely kills engines over time.That's why it can't be used in aircraft engines, which is becoming a real problem for aircraft with STCs that allow them to use auto fuel. It's really hard to find it without ethanol now.