Ghosts: Do They Exist?

[TeenageRepublican]

My opinion:
I believe that ghosts exist. I don't believe that ghosts come to get revenge or to haunt certain areas. I believe that some people cam come back with good intentions for a very brief time.
I think that demons can take shape of certain people we loved to get us in to trying to get more and more in to making contact with the demon. But, I believe that God lets some people come back in a ghost-like form for a brief time if He sees the use for it.
Do you think ghosts exist?

[Timberwolf]

No.

[PrezLeefun]

Yes. But they are not spirits of the loved and departed or animals we once knew. They are angels and demons.

There is a very real spiritual world that can manifest itself to us.

[jayson]

No, they are a crutch for simpletons to lean on when they can't explain something.

Same goes for UFOs.

[Taylor1]

Wow, Jayson, no offense, but that was the smartest thing I've ever heard you say.

[TeenageRepublican]

You're kidding right? Jayson has said smarter things than that.

[ThomasMore]

TR, if you want a real scare and an answer to your question, try reading this book, by Fr. Malachi Martin (http://www.amazon.com/Hostage-Devil-Possession-Contemporary-Americans/dp/006065337X).

After reading it, let me know what you think.

[TeenageRepublican]

TR, if you want a real scare and an answer to your question, try reading this book, by Fr. Malachi Martin (http://www.amazon.com/Hostage-Devil-Possession-Contemporary-Americans/dp/006065337X).

After reading it, let me know what you think.

I'm not trying to get a scare, but I have been looking at some books. I found one that's part of a series that has authors from both view points come together and debate with their essays. The series is incredible. One volume on gun control had an essay by Chuck Heston (written in the 90's) who said on that essay that he promised himself he would live to see one more pro-2nd Amendment President in office.
The book is called "Paranormal Phenomena" and I've been reading it a lot. It deals with UFOs, ghosts, and the after life in general. I never knew that much about reincarnation until I picked up this book. I still strongly doubt it.

[Taylor1]

You're kidding right? Jayson has said smarter things than that.

I don't read threads that have titles that don't interest me. I would have a bigger post count if otherwise.

[TeenageRepublican]

So you've never been to the prostitution thread or the latest one about Republicans in a nutshell?

[Taylor1]

So you've never been to the prostitution thread or the latest one about Republicans in a nutshell?

I have been to the prostitution one, but not the Republicans in a nutshell, because I saw it but then it went away.

[ThomasMore]

I'm not trying to get a scare, but I have been looking at some books.

Given your interest in horror writing, I thought Dr. Martin's book might be of special interest to you -- all good fiction starts with a basis of reality. Dr. Martin catalogues five contemporary American cases of demonic possession and exorcism. It is a chance to look satan in the eye and see who the father of lies is.

Malachi Martin's Hostage to the Devil is considered the best work on this. Other well-regarded books that address demonic possession include Fr. Gabriele Amorth's An Exorcist tells his Story (http://www.amazon.com/Exorcist-Tells-His-Story/dp/0898707102/ref=pd_sim_b_img_1), Karl Vogl's Begone Satan (http://www.amazon.com/Begone-Satan-Carl-Vogl/dp/0895550989/ref=pd_sim_b_img_6) (the 23-day exorcism of Anna Eckland in Earling, Iowa). All of these involved Catholic Priests. For modern Protestant exorcisms, try Rev. Stephen Conn's The Devil Called Collect (http://www.amazon.com/Devil-Called-Collect-Exorcism-Jessica/dp/059547909X/ref=pd_sim_b_title_6), and Kiely and McKenna's The Dark Sacrament (http://www.amazon.com/Dark-Sacrament-Modern-Day-Possession-Exorcism/dp/0061238163/ref=pd_sim_b_title_6).

Respected psychiatrist M. Scott Peck first sought out exorcisms to disprove their spiritual component and to prove that the only thing involved was psychiatric illness. After participating in two exorcisms, he was entirely convinced that he had encountered satan directly. He writes about these exorcisms in Glimpses of the Devil (http://www.amazon.com/Glimpses-Devil-Psychiatrists-Possession-Redemption/dp/0743254678/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_k2a_2_img?pf_rd_p=304485601&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-2&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=006065337X&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=054X5HFHZ39JVK6YEF82).

As a Christian, you are in a position to do something Stephen King cannot: write scripturally sound fiction. Why not write horror that deals with the real horrors of hell -- how man's relationship to God and satan can bring redemption, or raise bone-chilling terrors to this world and devour people in the pit of hell?

Just as The Exorcism of Emily Rose was both a horror story and a witness for God, your writing can be, too.

[Eagle1]

what is the after-life if not a belief in ghosts?

[Gonzo67]

No, they are a crutch for simpletons to lean on when they can't explain something.

Same goes for UFOs.


Well, as for ghosts, I can't say one way or the other. I've never seen one, but I have read some things, seen some things in documentaries, and those things suggest to me that there IS a possibility.

As for your comment, I'd like to know why exactly you consider it a "crutch", since according to YOUR idiotic comment, I'm one of those "simpletons" that believes for a fact that there is extraterrestrial life and the UFO phenomena is quite real.

You see, a "crutch" in the way you are using it, is to reference an "irrational belief" that one clings to out of a NEED to rationalize something that can not be readily explained. Since most "believers" in the UFO phenomena don't have a NEED to believe it, they just believe it based on supporting evidence, and they are OPEN to other explanations, it can't really be called a "crutch". Which would also suggest that the "crutch" theory is nothing more than a CRUTCH for simpletons like you who have a strong need to hold on to their denial.

[TeenageRepublican]

Well, as for ghosts, I can't say one way or the other. I've never seen one, but I have read some things, seen some things in documentaries, and those things suggest to me that there IS a possibility.

As for your comment, I'd like to know why exactly you consider it a "crutch", since according to YOUR idiotic comment, I'm one of those "simpletons" that believes for a fact that there is extraterrestrial life and the UFO phenomena is quite real.

You see, a "crutch" in the way you are using it, is to reference an "irrational belief" that one clings to out of a NEED to rationalize something that can not be readily explained. Since most "believers" in the UFO phenomena don't have a NEED to believe it, they just believe it based on supporting evidence, and they are OPEN to other explanations, it can't really be called a "crutch". Which would also suggest that the "crutch" theory is nothing more than a CRUTCH for simpletons like you who have a strong need to hold on to their denial.

Ditto. I believe in extraterrestial life. Earth is just a speck compared to the rest of the galaxy. You can't tell me we're the ONLY ones who have life.

Given your interest in horror writing, I thought Dr. Martin's book might be of special interest to you -- all good fiction starts with a basis of reality. Dr. Martin catalogues five contemporary American cases of demonic possession and exorcism. It is a chance to look satan in the eye and see who the father of lies is.

Malachi Martin's Hostage to the Devil is considered the best work on this. Other well-regarded books that address demonic possession include Fr. Gabriele Amorth's An Exorcist tells his Story (http://www.amazon.com/Exorcist-Tells-His-Story/dp/0898707102/ref=pd_sim_b_img_1), Karl Vogl's Begone Satan (http://www.amazon.com/Begone-Satan-Carl-Vogl/dp/0895550989/ref=pd_sim_b_img_6) (the 23-day exorcism of Anna Eckland in Earling, Iowa). All of these involved Catholic Priests. For modern Protestant exorcisms, try Rev. Stephen Conn's The Devil Called Collect (http://www.amazon.com/Devil-Called-Collect-Exorcism-Jessica/dp/059547909X/ref=pd_sim_b_title_6), and Kiely and McKenna's The Dark Sacrament (http://www.amazon.com/Dark-Sacrament-Modern-Day-Possession-Exorcism/dp/0061238163/ref=pd_sim_b_title_6).

Respected psychiatrist M. Scott Peck first sought out exorcisms to disprove their spiritual component and to prove that the only thing involved was psychiatric illness. After participating in two exorcisms, he was entirely convinced that he had encountered satan directly. He writes about these exorcisms in Glimpses of the Devil (http://www.amazon.com/Glimpses-Devil-Psychiatrists-Possession-Redemption/dp/0743254678/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_k2a_2_img?pf_rd_p=304485601&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-2&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=006065337X&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=054X5HFHZ39JVK6YEF82).

As a Christian, you are in a position to do something Stephen King cannot: write scripturally sound fiction. Why not write horror that deals with the real horrors of hell -- how man's relationship to God and satan can bring redemption, or raise bone-chilling terrors to this world and devour people in the pit of hell?

Just as The Exorcism of Emily Rose was both a horror story and a witness for God, your writing can be, too.

I'll consider it, but I'm not the Peretti (Christian Horror Author) type.

[jayson]

As for your comment, I'd like to know why exactly you consider it a "crutch", since according to YOUR idiotic comment, I'm one of those "simpletons" that believes for a fact that there is extraterrestrial life and the UFO phenomena is quite real.

I never said that there wasn't extraterrestrial life... In fact my opinion answers the question to ET life and UFOs.

Extraterrestrial life is real, no doubt. Is it intelligent? I can't say for certain, but there is no doubt mold and fungi and bacterium growing on other planets. That's extraterrestrial life, make no mistake.

As for UFOs: we are a single planet of billions in our galaxy. Each star in the sky is a sun, not a planet. And each of those suns has the possibility for dozens, if not hundreds or thousands of planets and moons orbiting it. And that's just in our galaxy, of which there are billions of galaxies in the universe.

To me, the chances of an alien race having the technology and wherewithal to find us, the one in (literally) quintillion chance, is just so unlikely that my mind reels at the thought. I mean, for them to find us would be a miracle, and then for them to keep coming back, sucking us up in bright shining beams of light and then proceeding to stick metallic objects up our asses.... I just can't see it happening.

The reason that I say that UFOs and ghosts are a crutch is because people tend to look towards the most spiritual or outlandish explanation, instead of the scientific or sensible one. Take for instance this example: a few years ago above Phoenix (I think?), some bright lights appeared in the sky and they seemed to "float" without moving, and they were in a round shape. People recorded them on video and were scared thinking they were UFOs. It turns out that they were A10 warthogs flying in formation. They looked like they were "floating" since the sky was black, so the people on the ground had nothing to reference the movement to, so it gave the illusion of a stationary group of lights.

[ThomasMore]

I never said that there wasn't extraterrestrial life... In fact my opinion answers the question to ET life and UFOs.

Extraterrestrial life is real, no doubt. Is it intelligent? I can't say for certain, but there is no doubt mold and fungi and bacterium growing on other planets. That's extraterrestrial life, make no mistake.

Jayson, how do you know?

I am not denying your premise, nor am I denying the possibility that there is other intelligent life in the universe. But you are stating a fact, without supporting evidence.

How do you KNOW that there are molds and fungi and bacteria growing on other planets?

As for UFOs: we are a single planet of billions in our galaxy. Each star in the sky is a sun, not a planet. And each of those suns has the possibility for dozens, if not hundreds or thousands of planets and moons orbiting it. And that's just in our galaxy, of which there are billions of galaxies in the universe.

To me, the chances of an alien race having the technology and wherewithal to find us, the one in (literally) quintillion chance, is just so unlikely that my mind reels at the thought. I mean, for them to find us would be a miracle, and then for them to keep coming back, sucking us up in bright shining beams of light and then proceeding to stick metallic objects up our asses.... I just can't see it happening.

The reason that I say that UFOs and ghosts are a crutch is because people tend to look towards the most spiritual or outlandish explanation, instead of the scientific or sensible one. Take for instance this example: a few years ago above Phoenix (I think?), some bright lights appeared in the sky and they seemed to "float" without moving, and they were in a round shape. People recorded them on video and were scared thinking they were UFOs. It turns out that they were A10 warthogs flying in formation. They looked like they were "floating" since the sky was black, so the people on the ground had nothing to reference the movement to, so it gave the illusion of a stationary group of lights.

On what do you base these odds? Is it mere random guesswork?

Assuming that other intelligent species exist and they have have practical developed space travel, which other technologies have they developed, and which ones have they not developed?

1. Have they, or have they not developed technologies which allow them to determine which other planets actually hold intelligent life, or have the potential of holding life?

2. Have they, or have they not developed the ability to communicate with other intelligent species, to share information that one species learns about other opportunities?

3. Have they, or have they not developed the ability to sidestep the limitation of light-speed travel?

All of this is well beyond the current state of human knowledge and competency. We simply don't know any of it. I can't see how you can competently assert certainty on any of it, or even assign a reasonable probability to it.

[Kathy30]

I lived in a haunted house once so yes, I am forced to believe that there is SOMETHING. Call it ghosts if you wish.

[Livia]

They are angels and demons.

There is a very real spiritual world that can manifest itself to us.

I agree with this somewhat. I believe that "ghosts" are purely demons that know someones actions and thoughts so well that they can mimic them in such perfection that even the person closest to that deceased person can not tell the 2 apart.

Now, I believe that angels have a certain way of warning us in times of danger. Perhaps flip on a light before a burglar passes your house, or help that stop sign on leading onto the freeway have an extra flicker of light to make sure you see it before entering. Things like that, but I don't believe that they ever become an actual "being", but more or less a presence.

[DeclinetoState]

Of course there are ghosts. How else can the dead people vote in Chicago?

[TeenageRepublican]

I lived in a haunted house once so yes, I am forced to believe that there is SOMETHING. Call it ghosts if you wish.

Please share, if you don't mind. I'm curious, like the typical teenager I am.

[ThomasMore]

Of course there are ghosts. How else can the dead people vote in Chicago?

Maybe the head of the poltergeists has something to do with it.

2328

[Wolfcounsel]

The closest I can come to explaining what ghosts are is this:

They are visual manifestations of some leftover residual human "magnetism", the frequencies of which can be picked up by people whose minds are at some low or high peak level of activity or thought. Sometimes the frequencies encountered affect the senses of smell and touch and hearing. I don't know about the sense of taste.

Pardon me. I'm out of beer. Be right back. Don't look behind you at this time. Don't! Heh heh heh!

[jayson]

Jayson, how do you know?

I am not denying your premise, nor am I denying the possibility that there is other intelligent life in the universe. But you are stating a fact, without supporting evidence.

How do you KNOW that there are molds and fungi and bacteria growing on other planets?

Of course I don't know, no one knows for sure. But I strongly believe that there are, in fact, living organisms in the universe. Do I believe that they are intelligent? I can't say, nor will I speculate on it.


On what do you base these odds? Is it mere random guesswork?

Hardly random guesswork... just look up in the sky at night or take an astronomy course at your local community college. There are literally sextillions of planets in the universe, and that's a conservative number. (Note that in my last post, I misstated. There are in fact more than a quintillion planets).

I just fetched my astronomy book from an astronomy class I took at the community college. Here are some statistics: About 400 billion stars in our galaxy alone, approximately 4 trillion planets in our galaxy (assuming each solar system has the same number of planets as ours, which is terribly small), times the 125 billion galaxies in the universe... See?

500,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 planets, or, 500 sextillion planets, or 5x10^23

The book is titled "Stars" by Herbert Zim and Robert Baker in case you wanted the source.

Assuming that other intelligent species exist and they have have practical developed space travel, which other technologies have they developed, and which ones have they not developed?

1. Have they, or have they not developed technologies which allow them to determine which other planets actually hold intelligent life, or have the potential of holding life?

2. Have they, or have they not developed the ability to communicate with other intelligent species, to share information that one species learns about other opportunities?

3. Have they, or have they not developed the ability to sidestep the limitation of light-speed travel?

All of this is well beyond the current state of human knowledge and competency. We simply don't know any of it. I can't see how you can competently assert certainty on any of it, or even assign a reasonable probability to it.

We can sit here all day and argue over alien technology, but the fact still remains that they would have to search a mind-bogglingly large number of planets as well as break down major technological barriers like traveling faster than light, which smarter men than you and I have said is impossible.

The only thing I might say is that alien life forms could intercept our radio and TV signals... but since those have only made it about 90 light years at this point, we'd only have reached our closest next-door neighbors.

[Wolfcounsel]

Somebody has been playing with the railroad switches.

[Taylor1]

Somebody has been playing with the railroad switches.


I found your violator!

http://www.davidclark.com/images/rail_switcher.jpg

[Kathy30]

Please share, if you don't mind. I'm curious, like the typical teenager I am.

Really! It's a rather long story.

[TeenageRepublican]

I'm not a spaz. I have a long attention span. Unless you don't want to share. It's okay if you don't.

[DoctorDoom]

Same goes for UFOs.Thank you for demonstrating that our disinformation campaign is working. Fact: no clandestine action can be seccessful unless the victims/targets are convinced that the threat is a myth. We can now proceed with our invade-and-sterilize operation without fear of discovery until it's too late.

Commander Ashtar is pleased.

[Wolfcounsel]

Another derailment, by me, heh heh. That disinformation thing is not really too far from the truth, in my book. Like the Roswell incident, where the top dogs attempted to "cover up" an alien crash in their attempt to cover up some other secret, and "threatening" to do something bad to snoopy people who went around asking about extraterestrial matter, when in fact they were detouring people to the alien question vice their top secret incident. Hmmmm?

It is now past midnight here. If you have your lights off there, do not stare too long at any corner of the room you are in. Do not!

[DoctorDoom]

Good advice! That's where the Shadow People (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_people) lurk.

[ThomasMore]

Commander Ashtar is pleased.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d7/Ishtar_1987_film_poster.jpg

[PrezLeefun]

I agree with this somewhat. I believe that "ghosts" are purely demons that know someones actions and thoughts so well that they can mimic them in such perfection that even the person closest to that deceased person can not tell the 2 apart.

Now, I believe that angels have a certain way of warning us in times of danger. Perhaps flip on a light before a burglar passes your house, or help that stop sign on leading onto the freeway have an extra flicker of light to make sure you see it before entering. Things like that, but I don't believe that they ever become an actual "being", but more or less a presence.

Thank You Livia for the effort. It was nice to see. And I mostly agree with your assessment.

[PrezLeefun]

Really! It's a rather long story.

Kathy I hate to pressure you, but your statement has egged on my own curiousity. If you dont mind please share.

[gnome]

In my estimation the human mind and memory is too malleable and suggestible to rely primarily on eyewitness accounts. Ghosts are a fascinating idea, a glimpse of the supernatural, a chance to reconnect with lost loved ones... by human nature alone people will desire to believe. As a result their own perceptions will reinforce the possibility... their own memories will shift towards an "unmistakable" brush with the departed.

It doesn't require the person to lie, only to let their recollections err on the side of the more interesting conclusion.

[DoctorDoom]

Re post #32, wrong -shtar.

Ashtar Galactic Command (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashtar_Galactic_Command)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v349/DocDoom777/UFOs/Ashtar.jpg

[TeenageRepublican]

So your commander's a pretty boy from a Tolkien fantasy?

[ThomasMore]

Of course I don't know, no one knows for sure.

...just look up in the sky at night or take an astronomy course at your local community college. There are literally sextillions of planets in the universe, and that's a conservative number. (Note that in my last post, I misstated. There are in fact more than a quintillion planets).

I guess that is my point. It is sheer speculation.

Astronomy was a hobby of mine since childhood. I studied it in college, and even considered majoring in it. I do have a sense of the vastness of space, the innumerable galaxies, each containing innumerable stars.

As for the quintillion planets, we don't know that yet -- that is extrapolation from extremely limited data. We have only detected 288 extrasolar planets so far: mostly by observing anomalies on stars' movements and brightness. The "quintillion" number might very well be correct, but it is premature to state it to a certainty.

Even if the "quintillion" number is correct, does that mean that some form of life exists on many of them, or just on one, exceptional planet -- Earth?

We simply cannot know whether there is, or is not, ANY extraterrestrial life until we find direct evidence of it.

We can sit here all day and argue over alien technology, but the fact still remains that they would have to search a mind-bogglingly large number of planets as well as break down major technological barriers like traveling faster than light, which smarter men than you and I have said is impossible.

The only thing I might say is that alien life forms could intercept our radio and TV signals... but since those have only made it about 90 light years at this point, we'd only have reached our closest next-door neighbors.

Let me posit some completely speculative technologies:

1. Some kind of space warping or controlled wormhole technology exists, allowing an alien species to cover millions, billions or trillions of light years in an instant -- distance ceases to be a barrier or even much of a consideration.

2. This species can send small probes throughout space, say, 100 billion probes. Each probe can investigate 10 solar systems in an earth day and return once an earth month with its findings. That means every earth month, 30 trillion solar systems are checked and catalogued.

3. Once the species finds other solar systems capable of supporting life, it investigates further, possibly with cloaked, "manned" spacecraft.

---

All three of these premises involve technologies comprehensible to 21st century man, even if they are beyond our present ability to reproduce them. Considering the different forms intelligence might take and the number of potential abilities and technologies we have not even imagined, there might be a multitude of ways for intelligent alien life to be observing you even as you read these words.

Or none of them might exist at all. Who knows?

[ThomasMore]

Re post #32, wrong -shtar.

Ashtar Galactic Command (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashtar_Galactic_Command)

Oops! sorry.

Mine eyes were dim, I could not see.

I had not brought my specs with me.

(With apologies to "The Quartermaster Corps (http://www.danmansmusic.com/childrens/the_quartermasters_corps.txt).")

[jayson]

Even if the "quintillion" number is correct, does that mean that some form of life exists on many of them, or just on one, exceptional planet -- Earth?

We simply cannot know whether there is, or is not, ANY extraterrestrial life until we find direct evidence of it.

That I can't answer... and it brings up some seriously concerning questions regarding my faith. If, by chance, there were extra-terrestrial life, then why were we not told about it? On one hand, you have possibly quintillions, sextillions, septillions, etc., amounts of planets.... how can there NOT be some planet with conditions for life? But then again, I see intelligent life as a tornado ripping through a print shop and a dictionary falls out of the whirlwind as a result... Life is just too complex and amazing to happen by chance.

And if there were intelligent life, would that not mean that Christianity is all false? Because certainly God would not create another race of beings... what would be His motives for such? Are we all just pawns in a giant game of galactic chess being played for His pleasure?

And why did God create a universe so terribly large for our single planet? He certainly didn't go through all that work so we could romantically make out with our girlfriends under the stars...

I try not to think about these things, because I think that the greatest part of having faith is just that... having a belief. It's not going to church every Sunday or praying on a schedule... it's having the true and utter belief in something greater than ourselves. And damnit, space really shakes my faith!

Or none of them might exist at all. Who knows?

Perhaps, but if they had such technology, why do they still insist on sticking metallic objects in our asses? :lol:

But more seriously, sure, we can speculate. Who knows, honestly. But you can't deny that people choose to believe in something paranormal or (if they are religious) heavenly before considering that there may be science behind what they have seen, or quite possibly a simple explanation.

I don't think you and I are disagreeing at this point... we just have slightly different perspectives.

[TeenageRepublican]

That I can't answer... and it brings up some seriously concerning questions regarding my faith. If, by chance, there were extra-terrestrial life, then why were we not told about it? On one hand, you have possibly quintillions, sextillions, septillions, etc., amounts of planets.... how can there NOT be some planet with conditions for life? But then again, I see intelligent life as a tornado ripping through a print shop and a dictionary falls out of the whirlwind as a result... Life is just too complex and amazing to happen by chance.

And if there were intelligent life, would that not mean that Christianity is all false? Because certainly God would not create another race of beings... what would be His motives for such? Are we all just pawns in a giant game of galactic chess being played for His pleasure?

And why did God create a universe so terribly large for our single planet? He certainly didn't go through all that work so we could romantically make out with our girlfriends under the stars...

I try not to think about these things, because I think that the greatest part of having faith is just that... having a belief. It's not going to church every Sunday or praying on a schedule... it's having the true and utter belief in something greater than ourselves. And damnit, space really shakes my faith!



Perhaps, but if they had such technology, why do they still insist on sticking metallic objects in our asses? :lol:

But more seriously, sure, we can speculate. Who knows, honestly. But you can't deny that people choose to believe in something paranormal or (if they are religious) heavenly before considering that there may be science behind what they have seen, or quite possibly a simple explanation.

I don't think you and I are disagreeing at this point... we just have slightly different perspectives.

I think God knew what He was doing when he didn't tell us there are other planets with life. Think about it. If we have issues with violence on this planet, would it be a wise idea for use to know about another planet with life on it?

[Gonzo67]

If, by chance, there were extra-terrestrial life, then why were we not told about it?


Why do you believe you have not been "told" about it?

There is PLENTY of speculation from ancient cultures that speak of beings from the sky. Cultures that have erected monuments to them.

There are even passages from the Christian Bible that some scholars claim that they could possibly be referring to extraterrestrial phenomena.

All that is beside the point though. In what way did you learn about anything that you currently know of? Were you born with the knowledge of how to add and subtract? Or did you learn to do this when someone who understood how to do it instructed you? You've never been "told" about life elsewhere in the universe. But have you gone out and tried to LEARN about it? There's a great many things people have never been "told" about.

At one time, man kind was never TOLD about electricity. But then someone decided they'd like a little light at night, and they ran out of furniture to burn. No one ever TOLD man kind about mechanical flight. It took a bunch of people interested enough in LEARNING how to fly in order to discover the secrets.

Just because you've never been TOLD about something, does not qualify that "something" for the impossibility list.


But then again, I see intelligent life as a tornado ripping through a print shop and a dictionary falls out of the whirlwind as a result... Life is just too complex and amazing to happen by chance.


And what happens when someone makes the discovery that the thing you call "chance" is actually an intended function of life?


And if there were intelligent life, would that not mean that Christianity is all false?


And why would it? Why would the discovery of life on another world automatically negate the origin of life on THIS world?


Because certainly God would not create another race of beings... what would be His motives for such?


Again, Why? God would not create life on another world because YOU say he wouldn't? Does it say anywhere in the bible that God promised NOT to create life elsewhere? Have any of your school classes, or theology lessons EVER declared that God said he would create life ONLY on this planet and no where else?

If you are so willing to believe that God would NOT create life elsewhere, even having never been TOLD that, why is it so difficult to believe there WOULD be life elsewhere even if you haven't been TOLD about it?

Seems to me that if you believe in a God, a Creator, and you honestly believe he created the universe, and this Galaxy, and you honestly believe he created this world, and all the life in it, then you believe in a God who is partial to life, and partial to creation. And for a God to create something as vast as the universe, and as incredibly complex as the physical laws that surround it, and as vastly wondrous and complex as this planet, and as intricate as the life he placed on it, and then NOT create life elsewhere? That seems to be a pretty big waste of space. Why create all those other stars, planets, galaxies, and spread them out over so vast a universe, and stop short at filling it with life?

You think maybe God just has a bad marketing and research team?


I try not to think about these things, because I think that the greatest part of having faith is just that... having a belief. It's not going to church every Sunday or praying on a schedule... it's having the true and utter belief in something greater than ourselves. And damnit, space really shakes my faith!


Why should it? Your faith has nothing to do with what lies beyond our planet in the physical world. So why should the physical world challenge your faith?


Perhaps, but if they had such technology, why do they still insist on sticking metallic objects in our asses?


Well, if you think about it, it makes perfect sense. Take Dogs for example. Do you believe Dogs can communicate with one another? Dog A sees Dog B, Dog A barks, Dog B responds. Dog A postures aggressively, Dog B cowers, or challenges.

It's clear that dogs have limited reasoning capabilities. Your dog enjoys walks, when you take your dog for a walk, you put him on his leash, take him outside, and walk him. He enjoys the walk. The next day, you get his leash. He sees the leash, he knows that you use that with him when you take him for a walk, he reasons that the leash means you are going to take him for a walk. Your dog acts excited. Proof of at least limited reasoning.

You can teach your dog tricks. Through repetitive commands and rewards for appropriate behavior, your dog learns that when you say sit, if he sits, he gets rewarded. When you say "Shake", if he lifts his front paw, he gets rewarded. Limited reasoning.

Now the big question. Are dogs sentient? Are they self aware? Does your dog get frightened? Happy? Depressed? Excited? Those would all suggest that at least on SOME level, your dog IS "self aware". My dog for example is terrified of thunder. When it thunders outside, he hides. He'll try to climb into someones lap. He shakes, there is no doubt he is genuinely afraid. So if he is NOT "self aware", why would he be afraid?

Now, compare Dogs to humans. Would you consider humans to be more "sentient" or "self aware" then Dogs? More than likely. Do we humans have greater reasoning and logic skills than dogs? Well, MOST of us do. We KNOW that humans can communicate with one another. So if you want to "learn" about me, all you have to do is ask me questions.

If you want to "learn" about Dogs, asking questions of them is more or less a futile endeavor, because they lack the ability to communicate on a level we are capable of understanding. So to learn about a dog would require medical examinations. You would have to PHYSICALLY study the dog, rather than verbally interview the dog.

In YOUR example... WE are the Dog.

[Timberwolf]

There are some who interpret the smoke and fire on Mount Sinai, witnessed by the Israelites during the Exodus, was the exhaust of a spaceship and that Moses encounter with God was one of the first "Close Encounters of the 3rd Kind"...

I can see why they think that, but can't say I agree with it.

[Wolfcounsel]

Are we discussing ghosts or cosmology?

I saw a shadow girl in the Philippines some years back, but I don't think she qualified as a ghost. I was taking a nap on a rattan chair one night on the top floor of our house. It was around 10 at night, and all the windows were open. I was awakened by a friendly nudge on my right shoulder, and as I looked up, I saw a girl looking down at me and asking me in the Waray dialect if I was heading for the beach where the rest of the people were congregating. I told her I'd be down there in a few minutes and went back to sleep. After a short while I heard a banging on the floor, and I saw her shadow by the ladder to the bottom floor, about 25 feet away. She would bang every few seconds, like she was playing, so I figured a kid was sent to get me. I got up, and walked slowly to where she was, to tell her not to make those banging sounds. It was still dark in the room. When I reached where she was, there was nobody there, like the shadow had been swallowed up or something. I thought to myself, I must be really tired, heh heh.

[Trevelyan]

No, they are a crutch for simpletons to lean on when they can't explain something.

Same goes for UFOs.

So you know for a fact we are the only planet in the universe with living organisms on it?

[HomeschoolrsRUs]

I believe there are things that have not yet been explained, but I don't believe they are ghosts or ufo's. I believe there has only ever been one "Ghost" or "Spirit," that being the "Holy Ghost"/"Holy Spirit".

Angels and demons are a whole different plane of existence, imho.

[TeenageRepublican]

I'm going to mention ghost photography since no one else has. I have personally some crazy stuff when I was with my brother's photography club about three or so years ago. His girlfriend at the time took a picture of the football field and when the photos developed, there was a barely visible girl hugging a tree.
That's when I started having a belief in something like ghosts. But, I haven't been stupid enough to try to contact ghosts and things like that. I know that usually when people try to talk to ghosts they get something completely different. I think most ghosts are actually demons and angels in disguise, but about 5% of them maybe real. It's just an idea of mine.

[Wolfcounsel]

Post some pictures if you can, TR.

[ThomasMore]

That I can't answer... and it brings up some seriously concerning questions regarding my faith.

...

And if there were intelligent life, would that not mean that Christianity is all false? Because certainly God would not create another race of beings... what would be His motives for such? Are we all just pawns in a giant game of galactic chess being played for His pleasure?

And why did God create a universe so terribly large for our single planet? He certainly didn't go through all that work so we could romantically make out with our girlfriends under the stars...

I try not to think about these things, because I think that the greatest part of having faith is just that... having a belief. It's not going to church every Sunday or praying on a schedule... it's having the true and utter belief in something greater than ourselves. And damnit, space really shakes my faith!

...

I don't think you and I are disagreeing at this point... we just have slightly different perspectives.

Last statement first: Dead on -- we see things through slightly different lenses, but we are not in disagreement.

As for Christian faith: The Bible nowhere speaks of America, China, Australia or Antarctica. It doesn't speak of viruses, prions or kangaroos. Yet all of these exist, and none of the Bible's essential truths are compromised by their existence.

Perhaps I am missing something, but I have yet to find anything in the Bible which speaks either to the existence or the absence of life elsewhere. Let us assume that there is intelligent life elsewhere. Could not God have spoken to those "people" as well, in a way fitting to that unique Creation of His?

And if there is no other life than that on Earth, then it appears that the infinite God Who Is created the universe in a way that allows us to exist and to appreciate its immensity.

How much of that Creation is essential for our existence, I cannot say.

How many other purposes it serves for Him, I cannot say.

How much of it exists just to give us awe at its immensity, I cannot say.

The vastness, complexity and beauty of the universe awes me. In that scale, I am smaller than a bacterium on a grain of sand in the Sahara desert, but able to appreciate the entire Sahara. THAT has me in awe.

Speaking only for myself, that doesn't threaten my faith in God. It shows me how powerful He truly is.

[ThomasMore]

But, I haven't been stupid enough to try to contact ghosts and things like that. I know that usually when people try to talk to ghosts they get something completely different. I think most ghosts are actually demons and angels in disguise, but about 5% of them maybe real. It's just an idea of mine.

TR, I don't know exactly what ghosts are. As you have already said, Christian orthodoxy holds that they are angels or demons. Can a person, consigned to hell, become demonic and manifest himself as a specter? Most Christians don't accept this, but I am not sure.

I agree with you that playing with this kind of fire is extraordinarily dangerous, and many people who do dredge up things straight out of the infernal.

Incidentally, that is why I posted the links to possession in response to the thread on ghosts. I think that those who seek out ghosts (but not only those) may encounter demonic oppression or even become possessed. Reading the stories of possession and exorcism may provide insight into the demonic, which isn't that different from the ghostly.

[gnome]

I'm going to mention ghost photography since no one else has. I have personally some crazy stuff when I was with my brother's photography club about three or so years ago. His girlfriend at the time took a picture of the football field and when the photos developed, there was a barely visible girl hugging a tree.
That's when I started having a belief in something like ghosts. But, I haven't been stupid enough to try to contact ghosts and things like that. I know that usually when people try to talk to ghosts they get something completely different. I think most ghosts are actually demons and angels in disguise, but about 5% of them maybe real. It's just an idea of mine.

The idea of photographing a ghost never really made much sense to me... especially if she didn't see the ghost herself. Film reacts to visible light, so in order for something to turn up on film that couldn't be seen, the film would have to react to something that the eyes would not.

If you're presuming that it might be in a ghost's nature to supernaturally manifest inconsistently, it seems to be piling on a lot of assumption to add in the idea of life-after-death and classic ideas of ghosts. If that's all you're going by, is it really any less likely that a passing magician used his supernatural powers to mess with the camera?

This is if you don't want to accept the possibility of a common photographic anomaly such as a double-exposure.

[Kathy30]

I had no idea anyone would find it interesting!

I was 11 years old. Some friends of my parents, immigrants from Russia, had bought a home. Their first as Americans. It had a small stone cottage in the back that was the original house. The "big house" was built for the oldest son of the couple who bought the property. They were also immigrants, from Poland. The Russians offered this cottage to my parents to rent and we moved in.

Let me give you a visual of the cottage so you'll know the layout. There was a central room that was the living room with a stove and an oil heater. To the left was a bedroom. That bedroom I shared with my mother because my dad worked nights and would come home early in the morning and go to bed in the bedroom on the right, and not disturb anyone. At the far end of the bedroom on the right was a staircase to the attic. It was good for storage, but nothing else being too dark and cramped to be of any real use.

A few days after we moved in, some smudges appeared on the wall in my bedroom. It looked like some dirty spot. It bothered me so my Mom scrubbed at it. Scrubbing the smudges only made them darker. We though it was something under the paint and scrubbing only wore off the paint. My Dad painted over the smudges which made them very clear, very sharp and were two skulls. More paint didn't cover them so we taped newspaper on the wall to cover them up.

We heard things. We heard someone walking around in the attic, but there was never anyone up there. We heard the sound of a woman sobbing and the walls ran water. We put the water off to condensation from the stone walls, but the dribbles were warm and salty as tears. We would not be moved. It was cheap rent and we were determined people. Who cares if some footsteps were pacing in the attic. It's not like there was anyone there! It was also very cold, all the time, really cold and the oil stove never did heat it up. It was a stone cottage, perhaps some natural insulation, like a cave. We had an excuse and a reason for everything.

The drains started backing up, some kind of smelly black oily substance. The owners of the property checked the septic tank. In fact, they dug it up completely. There was nothing wrong with it and nothing at all to explain our backups. We still refused to move. We used the bathroom in the owners house until ours could be fixed. The next thing were flies at night. Great clouds of biting flies! They disappeared at the first light of day. We STILL refused to move. We were gonna stick it out no matter what. Sometimes we would hear the door open, footsteps across the floor, the door to the bedroom open (no it really didn't open, but we heard it open), steps going up into the attic and footsteps pacing back and forth.

My mother determined to find out what this cottage was all about so she began an investigation. The original owners, Polish immigrants never lived in the new house built for their oldest son and his family. They lived and died in the little stone cottage. Old folks still alive who knew them, said that they had a Will that prohibited the sale of the property. If it was never wanted by the family, it was to be used for an orphanage for Polish children. This provisions in Will cannot be enforced, but try to tell that to Polish immigrants. They wrote it down and intended that their family would abide by their wishes. The Will was never found. The property was sold and sold to RUSSIANS! One could only imagine how furious this old couple might have been.

Mom and Dad figured that's what was going on in the attic. The old couple was looking for the Will. They and I stood in the middle of the center living room and spoke directly to the couple. We were going to find that Will and give it to the son who sold the house. Maybe he could set the sale aside (never happen but what they hey, worth a try). There was peace in the house, no backups, no sobbing, no footsteps. No tears. No flies. It got toasty warm. We did NOT untape the newspaper in the bedroom just to check. We looked for that Will every place. We tore apart the attic, checked every stone in the walls to see if one was loose. Tested walls to see if one had a hollow place where paper could be kept. Nothing, if there was a Will hidden in that house, we couldn't find it. Possibly the son had found it long ago and destroyed it so he could sell the house and make some money off the sale.

We gave up. It wasn't that the cacaphony started slowly and built to a crescendo, it exploded in the middle of the night. A noise like the wailing of a hell bound spirit. Or several. Without any physical movement at all, everything looked just fine except for clouds of flies pouring out of the door. The noise woke up the owners of the property and sent them out into the backyard running smack into me and my parents who were running out as fast as we possibly could get away. They offered their home for the night knowing that no one was ever going to go into that cottage ever again. We declined. Better to spend the night in the old rattletrap car than on those grounds. We never went back. Not even for our clothing. We left it all there. All my toys, keepsakes, dishes, food in the fridge, everything, just left it.

It wasn't the fault of the Russians. We found someplace else to live and stayed friends with the Russians who tore that cottage down, stone by stone, and sprinkled the ground where it stood with salt and milk. Even when the cottage was torn down, no one ever found a Will or if they did, didn't say anything.

There you have it. The tale of the haunted house. There isn't a single doubt in my mind that the house was haunted by that old couple. I KNOW it was. I KNOW they were looking for that Will. This is why you may call them ghosts, demons, spirits, call them whatever you want, but they do exist.

[TeenageRepublican]

The idea of photographing a ghost never really made much sense to me... especially if she didn't see the ghost herself. Film reacts to visible light, so in order for something to turn up on film that couldn't be seen, the film would have to react to something that the eyes would not.

If you're presuming that it might be in a ghost's nature to supernaturally manifest inconsistently, it seems to be piling on a lot of assumption to add in the idea of life-after-death and classic ideas of ghosts. If that's all you're going by, is it really any less likely that a passing magician used his supernatural powers to mess with the camera?

This is if you don't want to accept the possibility of a common photographic anomaly such as a double-exposure.


I'm open to all ideas. But it freaked the heck out of me when I saw it because I was there when it was photographed.

TR, I don't know exactly what ghosts are. As you have already said, Christian orthodoxy holds that they are angels or demons. Can a person, consigned to hell, become demonic and manifest himself as a specter? Most Christians don't accept this, but I am not sure.

I agree with you that playing with this kind of fire is extraordinarily dangerous, and many people who do dredge up things straight out of hell.

Incidentally, that is why I posted the links to possession in response to the thread on ghosts. I think that those who seek out ghosts (but not only those) may encounter demonic oppression or even become possessed. Reading the stories of possession and exorcism may provide insight into the demonic, which isn't that different from the ghostly.

I believe that once you're in hell, there's no way to get back out unless God for some reason feels the need to come in. I do believe that it's possible for God to see a reason for a person's spirit to come back temporarily for some reason (such as for a loved one or something like that).
Playing with spirits is very dangerous though. My grandmother played with that type of thing after an "angel" came to her in a dream and told her to (Satan does appear as someone good). She studied and started to practice witchcraft. In the summer of 1980, her house suddenly burned down. No one was ever able to find out why or how that house burned to the ground so suddenly.

[TeenageRepublican]

Oh, and great story Kathy. That was truly a good read... it reminded me of a film called "The Messengers".

[ThomasMore]

I believe that once you're in hell, there's no way to get back out unless God for some reason feels the need to come in. I do believe that it's possible for God to see a reason for a person's spirit to come back temporarily for some reason (such as for a loved one or something like that).

It is an area in which I am ignorant. But if an already darkened, evil soul, a Hitler, a Stalin, a de Sade or some other version of the same is consigned to hell, he is separated from God, from love and from light. What happens to an already evil, destructive soul when he is surrounded only by darkness, evil and the ravenous? Wouldn't his soul darken further: become more evil, more hateful and more conniving? Assuming his spirit is not extinguished, might he not become useful to the demons, and perhaps develop into one himself?

If ghosts are demonic, couldn't some of them be demons who once lived as persons on earth?

I don't know the answer.

Playing with spirits is very dangerous though. My grandmother played with that type of thing after an "angel" came to her in a dream and told her to (Satan does appear as someone good). She studied and started to practice witchcraft. In the summer of 1980, her house suddenly burned down. No one was ever able to find out why or how that house burned to the ground so suddenly.

I am sorry to hear about that.

[LivingDeadGirl]

From what I have personally seen and experienced in my life, I can tell you that there is something there...but at this time we do not have the knowledge or technology to explain it. Most funeral directors I know (and I do know several) also have a FIRM belief in spirits/ghosts. And contrary to what most people seem to believe, most funeral homes do have some sort of unexplainable activity...and I know several that have sightings of what appears to be human spirits...though rarely will you get a funeral director to admit it!

The Bible even references the spirits of some of our greatest religious figures being seen and called up, so there is some reference to human spirits even in our sacred texts.

Do I think a lot of people attribute things to the spirit world that are explainable - yes. There is conjecture that what we see as ghosts are actually just other beings, not angels or demons, that are not of our plain of existance. ET's if you want...but not human and not spirit. The "shadow person" is not thought to be a spirit, angel, or demon at all...rather a whole separate being.

I am a Christian, however I do not believe that we instantly go to heaven or hell...in my studies of the scripture, I don't find that to be accurate. Rather we are to "sleep" till the Savior comes again. Is it possible that some wake to early, forget to fall asleep, or wake up periodically for no reason...I can fathom that...we are imperfect beings. Does that explain ghosts, at this time I can't say that...again we don't have the full knowledge or technology to prove or disprove that.

Then there are "residual" hauntings...where the manifestations are like a video that plays over and over...never changing. These seem to be some sort of imprint on the surroundings that replays at a given interval or if there is some sort of change to the environment that causes the recording to start. This is not a "ghost" though, it is something completely different that many are trying to figure out why it happens. I actually know someone who "haunts" her grandmother's house. She had a very traumatic experience there and her grandmother can periodically hear the experience repeat itself. My friend is VERY much alive.

[Wolfcounsel]

My father, my grandfather, my uncle, and an unrelated neighbor had what one would call a similar nightmare experience at different times, in the same house, same bedroom, more than 50 years ago in Laredo, Texas.

The nightmare involved a little creature about the size of a 3-year old boy. The creature had green skin, yellow eyes, and fangs like a cat, and nails like a dog. He kept attacking the throats of each of the people who slept in the room. The neighbor had moved into the house several months after my dad and granddad had the nightmare. The neighbor approached my dad and asked if he had had any bad moments in the house he was currently occupying, experiences in the form of the supernatural, or any nightmares. My dad asked him to relate what had happened there. His hairs stood up after his neighbor finished relating the nightmare. My uncle's experience involved something different. At the time my dad was having the nightmare, my uncle, who was a teen at the time, was lying on his side on a bed on the other side of the same room, looking in the direction where my father was. My dad woke up, and asked him what he was doing. My uncle said very cautiously that he saw a little shadowy figure, like some sort of animal, jump off my dad's bed and scurry under it. The thing was still under there. My dad thought it sounded logical, because the window was wide open with no screen where he slept. Anything could have hopped right in! He looked under the bed and throughout the whole house, but saw nothing. Strange?

[2thePoint]

I believe demons are the human/angel hybrid offspring of the unions of Genesis 6:4. The human part of them died but not the angel part, which would explain why demons tend to want to possess people or live in certain places. And they could also explain the origin of the Greek god myths. They are the children of unspeakably evil angels who followed in Satan's rebellion, yet also part children of humans.

Seeing also that these beings have lived for the duration of history, they have vast knowledge. They are not God but well above us in knowledge and power. So we should not be surprised that they could do all sorts of strange things and have intimate knowledge of individuals.

I don't discount the experiences related above at all. The question is not whether they happened, but why, and by whom. While I do believe a few dead individuals in history have been granted some access to this world, I don't believe such people would be accompanied by what is more typical of demons: swarms of flies, hateful visions, threats, fear. I believe that if a good person died and was granted access to the living, they would do good things, such as portrayed in the movie The Guardian. The Coast Guard swimmer died at the end but people who were rescued later by others reported him helping them stay afloat till help came.

Fear is not from God, so I would use that principle as a guide to identifying what sort of entity one may be dealing with. And I firmly believe God does not allow one of his children to be oppressed by evil, unless that person has backslidden or begun to turn in a dangerous direction. If God so gifts a believer, they can evict demons by the authority of Jesus' name. Unbelievers would not have this ability, but sometimes even secular exorcisms can work for a time. There are rules in the spirit realm we don't know about, but we have some glimpses.

[Kathy30]

A long time ago, oh gee maybe 30 years ago, I was just starting out working on a case of a yacht that had been deliberately sunk by the crew hired to move it

The name of the Yacht was the Gallilee. It was bought new by an artist and his wife. They took the yacht out with a hired crewman and got off course in a storm. They drifted for days running out of food and water. Weak, unable to move, the three waited to die. The wife and the crewman did die, only the artist was alive and hallucinating. He saw little creatures running around all over the boat. They were small, with huge eyes. When rescue came, only the artist was alive. The yacht was towed to Houston.

The artist began painting pictures of the creatures he saw and you all might remember how popular those pictures of big eyed children were in the 80s.

The yacht was sold to people in Laguna Beach who hired a crew to sail the yacht to its home berth but the crew sank it instead after radioing for help. This is where the lawfirms got involved. The couple made an insurance claim but the company refused to pay off because the boat was deliberately sunk and cross-claimed against the company who provided the crew.

Depositions were taken of each of the crewmen who said that they had no choice but to sink the Gallilee because it was possessed by demons. The crew reported creatures running all over the yacht. A police sketch artist was brought into the deposition to sketch the creatures from the descriptions given by the men. They were accurate representations of the very paintings the artist was now selling for a fortune.

I left that firm before these lawsuits were ever settled so I don't know who eventually won.

[Kathy30]

Which reminds me!

When I was in law school, one of my classmates bought a house way out in the desert that was reputed to be haunted. They thought it would be fun. The history of the house was a man and his wife lived there and one night he just wigged out and chopped his wife up into tiny pieces and buried the bits all over the property. Then he shot himself. Supposedly the parts were so small, not all of them had been recovered. Knowing this history and thinking that parties as a desert getaway would be novel, my classmate and her husband bought the house and had their first haunted party. I didn't go so this is all second hand. The invitees were all from our class.

The owner went down to the psychic bookstore and got a book and decided the highlight of the week end party would be to have a pretend seance. They got together what they needed to get, and nothing happened. Later on, one of the men began acting strangely, he was getting violent so his liquor was cut off. He was getting worse, trying to hit other party goers. He was told to go sleep it off. He ran out of the house. He went into the garage and found an axe. When he came back into the house, he was murderous, trying to actually kill other people there, he smashed up the furniture and was saying things that didn't make any sense things about being a whore and a slut and never getting away with it again. Then he began speaking in German, which was the language spoken by the man who killed his wife and shot himself.

Alarmed now because this classmate seemed possessed by the man who had died in this house, and seeing that he had to be disarmed immediately, a group of the men tackled him, took the axe away, tied him up and put him in the trunk of a car. They drove to a restaurant parking lot where the guy was taken out of the trunk and untied. He had absolutely no recollection of what had happened and no idea why he was in the trunk of the car. He clearly wasn't drunk. When he was told what had happened in that house, he couldn't believe it.

The owners of the property elected not to sell it, but said there would be no more pretend seances.

[Wolfcounsel]

The creatures on the yacht sound like the klabautermanner (klah-BOW-trr-manner) of the Baltic Sea. They are little sailor types who help the earthly sailors in their shipboard duties. But if a sailor sees any of them running around the ship, then the ship is doomed.

[Kathy30]

I never heard of that! The artist never saw anything during the entire cruise and was convinced that they were hallucinations, products of his own mind created out of the ordeal. He just made a fortune painting them after his return and recovery.

San Kinnison was killed in a car accident. When the paramedics and police arrived on the scene, Kinnison was still alive but barely. It was reported that he seemed to be talking to someone, arguing with them. He said "I'm not ready, I don't want to go. Leave me alone." The paramedics thought he was talking to them. Then he said 'Okay, you're right. I'll go" and breathed his last.

It is said by paranormal experts that people will see a loved one or something they trusted who has already died at the moment of death. Scientists studying brain activity in the dying say that this is a brain activity which may be some kind of self protection.

I got this from a nurse.

She was caring for a dying old woman. The woman's deathbed had a number of toy stuffed animals, mostly cats. It seems that she had a cat that she was devoted to. In her lengthy illness, the cat was her only friend. Family came to see her occasionally, but the cat and a series of cargiver nurses were her only company. When the cat passed away, the family substituted stuffed kittys to help her deal with her loss.

Declining, the woman slipped into a coma. This nurse was in her room and said she heard a scratching at the door. She ignored it, hospitals sometimes have odd noises now and then. She heard the scratching again, and the door moved, just a bit, just a crack really, a stray movement of air. It happens all the time. The nurse continued checking the monitors and heard another sound. A really odd sound, like a small body jumping on the bed. The old woman, in a coma, moments from death moved her hand, in very small stroking movements, then she quietly died with a very small smile on her lips.

Did the beloved cat return to be a guide? Who was Sam Kinneson talking to?

There are very good explanations for incidents like this. They take as much faith any anything else.

[Wolfcounsel]

The deal with Sam is not exactly an urban legend either. When it had just happened, the news report said that paramedics who were tending to him heard him going, "okay, okay, okay", and then he stopped talking, like he went to sleep, and then his forehead started bleeding. --my recollection

[Nutrider99]

The idea of photographing a ghost never really made much sense to me... especially if she didn't see the ghost herself. Film reacts to visible light, so in order for something to turn up on film that couldn't be seen, the film would have to react to something that the eyes would not.
The first thing you learn in photography class is that film is more sensitive to light than the human eye is. It's very easy to film things the eye cannot see. The human eye operates at roughtly 16 fps (frames per second). Most camera's capture images between a 60th of a second and a 200th of a second. I have a camera that will capture an image in a 2,000th of a second, and you can get far faster than that with a strobe. I've also taken pictures lasting over an hour, which exposes things in ultra low light situations that the human eye could never see.

[Nutrider99]

First Samuel, Chapter 28.

"7": Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and inquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.
"8": And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.

"9": And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?

"10": And Saul sware to her by the LORD, saying, As the LORD liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing.

"11": Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.

"12": And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.

"13": And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.

"14": And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.

"15": And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

"16": Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?

"17": And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:

"18": Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day.

"19": Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.

"20": Then Saul fell straightway all along on the earth, and was sore afraid, because of the words of Samuel: and there was no strength in him; for he had eaten no bread all the day, nor all the night.

Whether or not you believe the spirits of the departed are able to be contacted, the fact is it HAS happened because God allowed it. I don't personally believe in ghosts, but neither can I say definitively that they do not exist. I CAN state that angels exist because many have seen them. I CAN state that demons exists, because I've seen them. I believe that most "ghosts" are "familiar spirits;" demons that take the form of those we knew. However, that can't change the fact that after he died my grandmother saw my grandfather standing at the foot of her bed, healthy again and happy. She was convinced that it was his way of telling her that he was in a better place. He always said that were it not for her he would have gone straight to Hell. He was saved late in life, and became one of the most devout Christians I ever knew.

Do ghosts exist? Certainly. I just can't say for certain what they are.

[DeclinetoState]

The creature had green skin, yellow eyes, and fangs like a cat, and nails like a dog. He kept attacking the throats of each of the people who slept in the room.

That sounds like someone we know:

http://www.freeconservatives.com/vb/customavatars/avatar86_7.gif

He's all grown up now.

[Lubbock]

The last home that I shared with my husband before we divorced was a huge old place (7,000 sq. ft.) out in the country. I knew almost from day one that something was going on in the house. It took a little longer to convince my husband.

Something walked in that house. It didn't happen all the time, but it happened often enough that it caused my husband to call out a structural engineer to have the house gone over from top to bottom, looking for anything that could be causing the sound of something paceing on occasion, for minutes on end, the length of the middle floor.

Only once during the fifiteen years that I lived there did anyone other than my husband, son or I ever hear the pacing.

I've often wondered if the subsequent occupants experience the pacing sound.

[Livia]

You could write them a letter and ask them. Thats what I would do...
Eek! I'm not sure if I would want to know that a house I lived in was haunted. lol

[TeenageRepublican]

It is an area in which I am ignorant. But if an already darkened, evil soul, a Hitler, a Stalin, a de Sade or some other version of the same is consigned to hell, he is separated from God, from love and from light. What happens to an already evil, destructive soul when he is surrounded only by darkness, evil and the ravenous? Wouldn't his soul darken further: become more evil, more hateful and more conniving? Assuming his spirit is not extinguished, might he not become useful to the demons, and perhaps develop into one himself?

If ghosts are demonic, couldn't some of them be demons who once lived as persons on earth?

I don't know the answer.

That is a good question. I have no answer, honestly.

[Wolfcounsel]

Is there something about the residual magnetism of a human that is difficult to comprehend? Think of the space-time continuum. Everything that happens is happening at once. In the current space-time, one sees real things, and the ghost things are the overlappings of the past continuum. We are never in-between dimensions, so our minds cannot detect future overlappings, because in the current dimension, the future has not happened yet.

Dang! I typed all this while chugging a beer!

[TeenageRepublican]

Sheesh, who died and made you Einstein?

[Wolfcounsel]

No joking. I wish I did have Einstein's brain, but not his philosophy. I was comparing the residual electromagnetic field left by all people everywhere they go. Combined with the ongoing events via the continuum, and the state of mind of an individual, he may be able to perceive things at particular places, and those things can be people, and very eerily dead-looking. Sounds can manifest. Cold temperature usually. Smells. Yes, even the sensation of being grabbed. Our knowledge is infantile yet, so maybe in the near future, we will know even how to bring these ghosts to visibilty as common events.

[TeenageRepublican]

WC, it was a joke. I say that to people when they go off on stuff like that. When it's complicated, I say that. Sorry if I sounded like a turd.

[Wolfcounsel]

"WC, it was a joke. I say that to people when they go off on stuff like that. When it's complicated, I say that. Sorry if I sounded like a turd." --TeenageRepublican

Yes, I knew that. It's hard to make the proper inflection for "No joking".:D

[Maggie_T]

I've heard some pretty interesting accounts on ghosts and aparitions and whatnot. Impossible to explain, but fascinating.

My father used to tell of this house where he lived with his mother and siblings in the 1930s. At the time, my country was at war with one of our neighboring countries. My father was only 11 so needless to say, he stayed at home with his mother and his sister. His two brothers were much older than he and they went off to war.

Anyway, my father always told us about what happened during that time. He said that they usually locked their bedroom door when they went to bed (it was a difficult period). Well, all of a sudden the locked doors would open all by themselves. Also, he said they would hear tremendous noises in the kitchen, but when they went to investigate, they would find nothing wrong and everything in its place. I'm sure you've heard of similar happenings. They seem to be very common in "haunted" houses. Anyway, when my father's brothers came home on leave, everything would go back to normal: locked doors would remain locked and no noises were heard. Maybe the spooks realized the futility of trying to scare soldiers fresh from the battlefield.

But this I can tell you without mistake, my father was NOT one to believe in spooks and the paranormal, and stuff like that. And yet, he admitted that he witnessed what happened in that house, but could never explain it.

Do ghost exist? I have no idea. But I admit I love to hear a good ghost story although I confess I'm a terrible scary pants.

[Wolfcounsel]

My grandchildren love to hear ghost stories. I made one up, a "true" story, about a little five-year-old girl ghost who lives in our backyard, behind the garage. She uses that yard for playing, and she comes out only at night when the moon is half moon or less. We sit at the picnic table in front of the garage until the darkness approaches, usually the four oldest granddaughters, my wife, and the mother of two of them there. I start "hearing" rustling grass, and I excuse myself to go behind the garage, and of course nobody wants to follow me. I begin talking to nobody there, and the group can hear me, and then I return. I tell the girls that the little girl wants to play hide and seek with one or two of the girls, and who wants to volunteer? Nobody does. I go back to the same place, mumble something, and return. I tell my daughter-in-law that the ghost can play with an adult, so I lead her to the back. She wants to go behind me, and I tell her no, because she has to put her arm out so the ghost can grab it. She will feel cold, but then she will be able to play. I have not seen a woman move so fast back to inside the house.:evilgrin: