Penn And Teller Get Hippies To Sign Water Banning Petition

[EveningStar]

YouTube
December 6, 2006

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[jayson]

I love Bullshit.. it's a great show and a lot of fun. They knock some serious lefty issues like recycling, environmentalism, going "green", endangered species... a whole bunch of stuff.

[Elgalad]

As well as Christianity.

It's tempting to applaud their pointed critique of liberal sacred cows, but lets not forget that in the end, they are also Libertarian Atheists.

This isn't simply a case of attacking the messenger either, several of their episodes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Bullshit%21_episodes) are dedicated to directly attacking religion and religious belief.


-Elgalad

[EveningStar]

As well as Christianity.

It's tempting to applaud their pointed critique of liberal sacred cows, but lets not forget that in the end, they are also Libertarian Atheists.

This isn't simply a case of attacking the messenger either, several of their episodes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Bullshit%21_episodes) are dedicated to directly attacking religion and religious belief.


-Elgalad

You mean like this?

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/8RV46fsmx6E&hl=en"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/8RV46fsmx6E&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[satcom]

Great show.

[DeclinetoState]

As well as Christianity.

It's tempting to applaud their pointed critique of liberal sacred cows, but lets not forget that in the end, they are also Libertarian Atheists.

This isn't simply a case of attacking the messenger either, several of their episodes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Bullshit%21_episodes) are dedicated to directly attacking religion and religious belief.


-Elgalad
A stopped clock is right once or twice a day.

[CONSERVATIVE HERO]

Saw this vid (or something almost identical) a long time ago. Good stuff. It really illustrates the caliber of your average leftist voter.

As well as Christianity.

It's tempting to applaud their pointed critique of liberal sacred cows, but lets not forget that in the end, they are also Libertarian Atheists.

This isn't simply a case of attacking the messenger either, several of their episodes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Bullshit%21_episodes) are dedicated to directly attacking religion and religious belief.


-Elgalad
+1

I noticed the same thing. This is why I don't care for them. Religion/Christianity is the wellspring and lifeblood of Conservatism in America. A "conservative" attacking Christianity is like a body seeking to remove its own heart.

The fiscal aspect of libertarianism initially was appealing, until I got to the social policy, which was unmitigated radical leftism repackaged as "consevatism" (via deceptive corruptions of what's considered right-wing philosophy). I don't need a half-and-half Conservative anymore than I need a cheeseburger that's beef on one side and shat on the other.

[EveningStar]

The fiscal aspect of libertarianism initially was appealing, until I got to the social policy, which was unmitigated radical leftism repackaged as "consevatism" (via deceptive corruptions of what's considered right-wing philosophy). I don't need a half-and-half Conservative anymore than I need a cheeseburger that's beef on one side and shat on the other.
Not all libertarians are alike. Some are religious. Some are pro-life. Some support the war on terror. Larry Elder is one such libertarian.

[Elgalad]

A stopped clock is right once or twice a day.

That would depend on just How broken it was..

http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/5941/brokenclockma4.jpg

Some are just never right.



-Elgalad

[buckeyepete]

I'll digress, and stay out of this slide into a religious thread.I don't think this was the reason for the post.

These two assholes showed the US how stupid the populace is.

Lighten up folks, even nasty asshole heathens have a handle on our world.

[TeenageRepublican]

Not all libertarians are alike. Some are religious. Some are pro-life. Some support the war on terror. Larry Elder is one such libertarian.

So am I. I consider myself pretty religious. I just don't think saying "This is what God says" is the correct way to run a country.
But I do have deep respect for social conservatives who are willing to sit down and talk about this. In fact, I support any social conservative that's willing to stand up to the plate. As long as s/he supports small government.


I noticed the same thing. This is why I don't care for them. Religion/Christianity is the wellspring and lifeblood of Conservatism in America. A "conservative" attacking Christianity is like a body seeking to remove its own heart.

I know several liberal Christians and several conservative Christians. A person's political beliefs, believe it or not, does not reflect what faith that person has.

The fiscal aspect of libertarianism initially was appealing, until I got to the social policy, which was unmitigated radical leftism repackaged as "consevatism" (via deceptive corruptions of what's considered right-wing philosophy). I don't need a half-and-half Conservative anymore than I need a cheeseburger that's beef on one side and shat on the other.

Again, you're saying that all libertarians are like that. Your post would be a lot more believable for me if you actually studied libertarianism.
And no, that does not mean going to the Liberatarian Party's site and getting information and saying what you think they believe.
I was against homosexual marriage when were debating prostitution, yet you claimed I supported it. As a result, I took a hard look at my original beliefs and discovered I was wrong on some issues. I also suppose you're going to attack this post because someone dared to speak out against you.

[HomeschoolrsRUs]

I'm with you, El.

[Incident_command]

They're too pompous for me. Don't care for them.

[EveningStar]

They're too pompous for me. Don't care for them.
Penn gets a bit nasty. Even when I agree with him, which is much of the time. He's much nastier than Boortz.

[Rhino]

They're too pompous for me. Don't care for them.Sonarman is a Libertarian, and I don't consider him pompous at all. But as smart as he is, he could probably get away with it. Dude has something like a 180 IQ.

[EveningStar]

Sonarman is a Libertarian, and I don't consider him pompous at all. But as smart as he is, he could probably get away with it. Dude has something like a 180 IQ.
Like I said earlier, Rhino, not all libertarians are alike.

[Rhino]

I know. That wasn't intended for you. But to be honest, I suspect that some folks are reading generalizations, and taking them literally.

I don't want to name names, but his initials are TeenageRepublican.

http://freeconservatives.com/smilies/doggie.gif

[TeenageRepublican]

I know. That wasn't intended for you. But to be honest, I suspect that some folks are reading generalizations, and taking them literally.

I don't want to name names, but his initials are TeenageRepublican.

http://freeconservatives.com/smilies/doggie.gif

What? I try not to be so damn serious all the time, but I have come to believe that CH believes all libertarians are immoral and Godless. I know this because he told me himself in countless threads.
Am I coming off like that?

[EveningStar]

What? I try not to be so damn serious all the time, but I have come to believe that CH believes all libertarians are immoral and Godless. I know this because he told me himself in countless threads.
Am I coming off like that?
TR, I'm with you. I too took him at his word. :D

[TeenageRepublican]

Oh, he was just yanking my chain?

[TeenageRepublican]

Sonarman is a Libertarian, and I don't consider him pompous at all. But as smart as he is, he could probably get away with it. Dude has something like a 180 IQ.

The funny thing is that I was just reading a thread where Sonarman beat up a member when s/he was spouting out crap against libertarians. That dude is harsh...

[EveningStar]

Oh, he was just yanking my chain?
If so, he fooled me too. :)

[TeenageRepublican]

I don't think I'm reading the usual generalizations though. CH is actually convinced that libertarians are hardcore lefties and that anyone who isn't conservative isn't Christian.
From the Prostitution: Legalized? thread:

Could you just go ahead and change your name to teenagelibertarian? You are clearly espousing their faux-conservative crap after all. So please stop, through false advertising, disseminating your libretardian love for licentiousness and hatred for morality and family values under the banner of "conservatism."

I'm not aware of your religious disposition, but if you ever claimed to be a Christian, I think it's safe to say you should stop doing that as well also.

Next up, TR makes the "conservative/Christian" case for supporting bestiality!

[Rhino]

What? I try not to be so damn serious all the time, but I have come to believe that CH believes all libertarians are immoral and Godless. I know this because he told me himself in countless threads.
Am I coming off like that?It was a joke. The laughing doggie was supposed to be a clue. Lighten up, dude. :lol:

The funny thing is that I was just reading a thread where Sonarman beat up a member when s/he was spouting out crap against libertarians. That dude is harsh...That was a response to those who try to lump all Libertarians into the same mold, just as CH seemed to be doing. Sonar responded harshly there just as you did here. Sonar does not match the mold some people get when they read the Libertarian Party web site. In fact, most Libertarians I know don't match that mold, which sometimes makes me wonder where they got their platform from. Most Libertarians I've come across are staunch conservatives in just about every way. If the Libertarian Party actually matched the beliefs of most Libertarians I've come across, I might actually join them. But they don't.

[TeenageRepublican]

It was a joke. The laughing doggie was supposed to be a clue. Lighten up, dude. :lol:

I know. One of the flaws I have is that I approach everything with all seriousness. I can tell sarcasm, but it takes a lot to make me laugh.


That was a response to those who try to lump all Libertarians into the same mold, just as CH seemed to be doing. Sonar responded harshly there just as you did here. Sonar does not match the mold some people get when they read the Libertarian Party web site. In fact, most Libertarians I know don't match that mold, which sometimes makes me wonder where they got their platform from. Most Libertarians I've come across are staunch conservatives in just about every way. If the Libertarian Party actually matched the beliefs of most Libertarians I've come across, I might actually join them. But they don't.


I also have no clue where they come up with their positions.
Here's how I see it. Libertarians and conservatives both want a great society, but they want to get that great society by different methods. If you got a standard conservative and a standard libertarian in one room and watched the discussion, you would find they agree on 75% of the issues.

[GreatDredScott]

To be honest, I find their (back to Penn and Teller) attacks rather simplistic most of the time. I first noticed this when watching the episode on the Bible. After picking up on some of the weaknesses in their approach and analysis, I then looked for similar techniques in their other episodes (including the ones with points with which I agree) and found that they were fairly routine. While I agree that they come to the right conclusions more often than 90% of other entertainers, they're still not worth more than a few minutes of viewing. It's kind of like how I feel about the Daily Show except I never care for the humor or content of that program, so that program is only worth the nanosecond it takes to skip by it when browsing the channels.

Oh, and the difference between a show like this and a show like South Park is that South Park doesn't reek of arrogance.

[Elgalad]

I think it's more about the name than the platform, Rhino.

"Conservative" can sound very stuffy and old to a young adult. I thought it did myself when I was in my 20's and I never thought of myself as one of 'them old fart conservatives'.

By contrast though, "Libertarianism" sounds a lot like "Liberty" and freedom, and all those great idealistic things we embrace in our 'unjaded yoot'. It really should come as no surprise that Many libertarians eventually find themselves relabeling themselves as they get older. I know that I did. ;)

When you get right down to it though, the simplest definable difference between True Libertarians and True Conservatives is this little thing called "Responsibility". Since that is something that one can really only understand through experience (usually hard experience), it's only natural for some people to change over time.

TR, this in now way means that I am calling you immature or naive. Far from it. Simply that in My situation, that was the case. And because of that, I feel confident in using that as a basis for how I view a lot of other young "Libertarians", especially the many that supported Ron Paul in the recent primary race.


-Elgalad

[TeenageRepublican]

I think it's more about the name than the platform, Rhino.

"Conservative" can sound very stuffy and old to a young adult. I thought it did myself when I was in my 20's and I never thought of myself as one of 'them old fart conservatives'.

By contrast though, "Libertarianism" sounds a lot like "Liberty" and freedom, and all those great idealistic things we embrace in our 'unjaded yoot'. It really should come as no surprise that Many libertarians eventually find themselves relabeling themselves as they get older. I know that I did. ;)

When you get right down to it though, the simplest definable difference between True Libertarians and True Conservatives is this little thing called "Responsibility". Since that is something that one can really only understand through experience (usually hard experience), it's only natural for some people to change over time.

TR, this in now way means that I am calling you immature or naive. Far from it. Simply that in My situation, that was the case. And because of that, I feel confident in using that as a basis for how I view a lot of other young "Libertarians", especially the many that supported Ron Paul in the recent primary race.


-Elgalad

I'm assuming that "now" is "no". If not, then I must need my glasses.
Actually, I used to hate libertarians. But after getting a good look at what they're about, I now realize that libertarians and conservatives have a lot in common.
I can go under the label "conservative", "libertarian", and "Earth-Raping Nazi scumbag" (that's a favorite for the libs).

[Riverboat]

"It's sexy to save the world."

Reminds me of a quote by my favorite pundit, P.J. O'Rourke: Everybody wants to save the earth; nobody wants to help Mom do the dishes."

[Maggie_T]

I find this absolutely PRICELESS!!!


http://freeconservatives.com/smilies/doggie.gif

And what's all this whining about these two guys being "arrogant" and "pompous"? Hello? They were right on the mark.

What's wrong, guys. Were you taken in as well? :evilgrin:

Anyhoo, this is the greatest proof that eco-nazis are, as these two guys proved beyond a shadow of a doubt, the most ignorant, gullible imbeciles thath God ever allowed to walk the face of the Earth.

Oh, well. I guess if God allowes people like this to exist in this world, it means the cretins are necessary too.

Talk about "mysterious ways His wonders to perform." :whistle:

[Maggie_T]

OTOH, why are we surprised that hippies want to ban water?

Can you imagine that? They'll be preclued by law from taking showers. Hippie Heaven!

[Wyatt_Junker]

I don't know which one's Penn or which one's Teller, but the short one. I bet I could make him talk.

[DesertFox]

But can he dance? :question:

[EveningStar]

I don't know which one's Penn or which one's Teller, but the short one. I bet I could make him talk.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penn_Jillette

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teller_(magician)

[roguemerc]

But can he dance? :question:

Penn can dance, sort of.

[DeclinetoState]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penn_Jillette

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teller_(magician)
Teller is an accomplished sleight of hand artist and is considered an expert on the history of magic. He is also a talented painter. He is an atheist, debunker, skeptic, and Fellow of the Cato Institute (a libertarian think-tank organization which also lists his partner Penn Jillette as a Fellow). The Cato Institute association is featured prominently in the Penn and Teller Showtime TV series Bullshit.

(Note: minor typo in link to Teller corrected in quote).

[Incident_command]

Sonarman is a Libertarian, and I don't consider him pompous at all. But as smart as he is, he could probably get away with it. Dude has something like a 180 IQ.

Neither do I. Why compare the two just cause of the libertarian connection?

[EveningStar]

(Note: minor typo in link to Teller corrected in quote).
I fixed it.

It wasn't really a typo. I copied the entire url, but for some reason the ")" didn't paste.

[DeclinetoState]

It wasn't really a typo. I copied the entire url, but for some reason the ")" didn't paste.
Computers (and especially browsers) can be such a pain in the a** sometimes.

[CONSERVATIVE HERO]

Not all libertarians are alike. Some are religious. Some are pro-life. Some support the war on terror. Larry Elder is one such libertarian.
You'll need to remember for future reference that a libertarian is not a Conservative to me. A libertarian is a libertarian. They're not the same thing.

In regard to the rest I've already previously stated (http://www.freeconservatives.com/vb/showthread.php?p=661153#post661153) that I don't believe all libertarians can be as crazy as most of those to which I've spoken. I'm not going to go through all of the hassle of individually naming those about which I'm not speaking every time I make a post however. If my comments don't apply to you simply disregard them.

As I've said in the past, my criticism is based upon the platform of the party, and my conversations with self-professed libertarians.

When you get right down to it though, the simplest definable difference between True Libertarians and True Conservatives is this little thing called "Responsibility". Since that is something that one can really only understand through experience (usually hard experience), it's only natural for some people to change over time.
Negative. Libertarianism is fundamentally a different ideology than Conservatism with a differing (if not incompatible) core philosophy. In Conservatism rights are derived from God (we are endowed by our creator). In libertarianism rights are derived from property (we are endowed by our possessions). Conservatism is based upon natural law and moral absolutes. Libertarianism rejects those and in their place embraces a rather secularist world view and moral relativism. Etc., etc.

They're not anywhere near as philosophically laissez faire as they like to portray themselves either. It became abundantly clear to me in my conversations with them, that libertarianism is a competing ideology, which ultimately seeks to overtake and replace conservatism. Some folks may look at them as our "buddies," or even as one and the same, but I know better.

TR, this in now way means that I am calling you immature or naive.
Why not? I have (naive anyway). He is. He's, like, 15 or something man.

I endured it for quite some time. Take for example (http://www.freeconservatives.com/vb/showthread.php?p=661153#post661153)...
Much like a libertarian, when their blatantly leftist inclinations are exposed, you attempt to redirect the conversation onto gun-rights or fiscal matters, and hope people will forget about the pro-abortion, pro-homosexuality, pro-euthanasia, pro-illegal immigration, atheocracy, etc.,...Bullcrap. Who said that libertarians are pro-illegal immigration?

Of course, after much of his claiming he knew better, I am vindicated later (http://www.freeconservatives.com/vb/showthread.php?t=59737&highlight=libertarian+convention)...
...but then I found out their position on the borders... they're for OPEN borders.
Basically, I was right all along.

Simply that in My situation, that was the case. And because of that, I feel confident in using that as a basis for how I view a lot of other young "Libertarians", especially the many that supported Ron Paul in the recent primary race.
Ron Paul is probably a good example of how a libertarian's "Conservative half" tends to be matched, if not utterly obscured, by their leftist loony half. This has often been mirrored in my conversations with the average libertarian.

Anyway, this is going off topic I suppose, so feel free to message me.

[Rhino]

Neither do I. Why compare the two just cause of the libertarian connection?Because somebody mentioned it.

[Elgalad]

You know CH.. you and TR are welcome to beat each other up in flame wars all you like. But I Would appreciate it if you'd keep Me out of it.

I was addressing him, not you. If you want to attack him, kindly do so with your own words, not mine.

On the other hand, if you want to debate ME directly, feel free.

You're quite welcome to disagree with my oversimplification of the primary difference between conservatism and libertarianism. But adopting a patronizingly supercilous tone will not get you far in advancing your position as morally or factually superior. What it Will gain you is further alienation of your peers, of whom I once considered myself one.

The irony here is, I Do agree for the most part with your post and stance on this issue (among others). It's your abrasive and intolerant tone that I have difficulty with.

Now I realize that I've (also) taken this thread way off its track, and for that I apologize.

Wasn't this thread originally about a couple of cynical stage magicians anyways? :smirky:


-Elgalad

[Elgalad]

Because somebody mentioned it.

Probably my fault, and I apologize for slapping this ball off on a wild tangent.

Talk about bad english. :ooo:


-Elgalad

[Incident_command]

Because somebody mentioned it.

Oh, I just didn't see how it was relevant to my saying Penn and Teller are pompous.

[DoctorDoom]

Remove the "Yank me!" tag from the chain and save a lot of misapprehension.

[Rhino]

Oh, I just didn't see how it was relevant to my saying Penn and Teller are pompous.Neither do I.

[Incident_command]

:D

[EveningStar]

Now I realize that I've (also) taken this thread way off its track, and for that I apologize.

Wasn't this thread originally about a couple of cynical stage magicians anyways? :smirky:

<s>shit</s> thread drift happens. :biggrin:

[TeenageRepublican]

You know CH.. you and TR are welcome to beat each other up in flame wars all you like. But I Would appreciate it if you'd keep Me out of it.

I was addressing him, not you. If you want to attack him, kindly do so with your own words, not mine.

On the other hand, if you want to debate ME directly, feel free.

You're quite welcome to disagree with my oversimplification of the primary difference between conservatism and libertarianism. But adopting a patronizingly supercilous tone will not get you far in advancing your position as morally or factually superior. What it Will gain you is further alienation of your peers, of whom I once considered myself one.

-Elgalad

Exactly, E. :claps:

As I've said in the past, my criticism is based upon the platform of the party, and my conversations with self-professed libertarians.

By your logic, it's okay for an Atheist to judge Christianity on what Christians say and not what Jesus says (which is how it should be judged).


Negative. Libertarianism is fundamentally a different ideology than Conservatism with a differing (if not incompatible) core philosophy. In Conservatism rights are derived from God (we are endowed by our creator). In libertarianism rights are derived from property (we are endowed by our possessions). Conservatism is based upon natural law and moral absolutes. Libertarianism rejects those and in their place embraces a rather secularist world view and moral relativism. Etc., etc.

They're not anywhere near as philosophically laissez faire as they like to portray themselves either. It became abundantly clear to me in my conversations with them, that libertarianism is a competing ideology, which ultimately seeks to overtake and replace conservatism. Some folks may look at them as our "buddies," or even as one and the same, but I know better.

I've taken the time to study both libertarianism and conservatism. They are both different and alike in several ways. They're both for smaller government. A general libertarian and a general conservative agree on 75% of the issues.

Why not? I have (naive anyway). He is. He's, like, 15 or something man.

I endured it for quite some time. Take for example (http://www.freeconservatives.com/vb/showthread.php?p=661153#post661153)...

First of all, don't go attacking other members that are my friends because of something I said. If you have something to say to me, get the balls to say it to my face.
Secondly, if you're tired of "enduring" me, then how come you come to threads and start shit? You are always the first one to throw the punch 90% of the time.


Of course, after much of his claiming he knew better, I am vindicated later (http://www.freeconservatives.com/vb/showthread.php?t=59737&highlight=libertarian+convention)...

Basically, I was right all along.

Only 10% of the libertarian population believes that. So you were partially right. However, that does not erase all the other times you were wrong.
You claim to be a strong Christian, yet you go around tossing insults in this incredibly rude and self-absorbed manner.
When you stop debating like that, then maybe I will start treating you with some respect.

[TeenageRepublican]

E, this isn't your fault. Saying "Atheist Libertarians" doesn't spark debate. What does spark debate is when people see those two words and use them to their advantage so they can obviously start shit.
I wasn't even offended when you said that. In fact, I agreed with you.

[Rhino]

First of all, don't go attacking other members that are my friends because of something I said. If you have something to say to me, get the balls to say it to my face.He didn't attack Elgalad. He was responding to a comment by him, albeit a comment about you. If that is to be considered an attack, then he did in fact say it to your face, even if his comment was a response to someone else.

Secondly, if you're tired of "enduring" me, then how come you come to threads and start shit? You are always the first one to throw the punch 90% of the time.You don't have to respond, you know. While I can't say we really condone it, that is something that will happen on internet forums from time to time. Try not to get so upset about it.

CH, could you try to debate the subject rather than making things personal so often? I know you are trying to make the point that you don't care for TR and his opinions very much, but I don't think you have to try to make that point repeatedly.

[TeenageRepublican]

He didn't attack Elgalad. He was responding to a comment by him, albeit a comment about you. If that is to be considered an attack, then he did in fact say it to your face, even if his comment was a response to someone else.

You don't have to respond, you know. While I can't say we really condone it, that is something that will happen on internet forums from time to time. Try not to get so upset about it.

Sorry about that. I'll try not too get upset next time.
Sometimes, I am provoked. I know that, is in a way, feeding trolls and I do apologize for that.

[DeclinetoState]

<s>shit</s> thread drift happens. :biggrin:
Shit drift?

:evilgrin:

[Elgalad]

Shit drift?

:evilgrin:


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:whistle:


-Elgalad