Splintered conservatives hurt McCain

[Suzie]

Splintered conservatives hurt McCain


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<table width="100%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td> By ALLAN J. LICHTMAN | 6/24/08 4:49 AM EST
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</td> </tr> </tbody></table> With America (http://search.politico.com/results.cfm?subject=United+States)’s attention riveted on the battle between Barack Obama (http://search.politico.com/results.cfm?subject=Barack+Obama) and Hillary Rodham Clinton, few noticed that presumptive Republican nominee John McCain (http://search.politico.com/results.cfm?subject=John+McCain) limped through his party’s late primaries. McCain won 73 percent of the vote in Pennsylvania, 72 percent in Kentucky, 70 percent in Idaho and 70 percent in South Dakota.

McCain’s problem with the Republican base is not his lack of conservative credentials. The Arizona senator’s 82 percent lifetime rating from The American Conservative Union is roughly comparable to the 86 percent rating for former Tennessee senator and 2008 GOP presidential candidate Fred Thompson, once the object of conservative dreams. Barack Obama’s rating during his brief Senate tenure is 8 percent.

But conservatives ultimately found Thompson and every other Republican candidate wanting. They have even turned on their onetime hero President Bush (http://search.politico.com/results.cfm?subject=George+W.+Bush), a sure sign of a movement in disarray. In the unkindest cut of all, the late patriarch William F. Buckley said of Bush in 2006, “If you had a European prime minister who experienced what we’ve experienced, it would be expected that he would retire or resign.”

The problem for conservatives, as I explain in my new book, “White Protestant Nation: The Rise of the American Conservative Movement” (Grove/Atlantic, 2008), is more fundamental than failed leadership. Rather, the conservative era that began in 1980 is coming to an end, the victim not of liberal pounding but of contradictions from within.

Conservatives triumphed in 1980 in the wake of the liberal failure to meet the challenges of a declining economy and heightened threats from abroad. But conservatives also won the battle of ideas. They called for a “colorblind society” to replace the liberals’ racial spoils system of quotas and special privileges for minorities. They proposed market solutions to social and economic problems and promised to ease taxes and regulations that discouraged working and investing. Conservatives pledged to rebuild America’s defenses and confront foreign enemies from a position of strength.

The movement conservatives of the Reagan era rejected gradual change and sought to smash the liberal order and restore America’s commitment to traditional moral values, private enterprise and robust anti-communism. In their pursuit of power, conservatives could count on the resources of business and a coordinated movement of intellectuals, publicists, lobbyists, educators, business leaders, journalists, preachers, talk show hosts and grass-roots activists. During the 1970s, conservatives built the Heritage Foundation, the Conservative Caucus, the National Conservative Political Action Committee, the Free Congress Foundation, Concerned Women for America, the Moral Majority and Focus on the Family.


(http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0608/11280.html)

McCain is not a phony or apostate conservative. Rather, he is the heir to contradictions that have now splintered the once vibrant conservative movement beyond easy repair. McCain’s backing for nation building in Iraq — arguably the largest federal social engineering project in U.S. history — the Bush tax cuts and a robust national bureaucracy for homeland security undercuts his rhetorical support for limited government, fiscal responsibility and states’ rights.
MORE HERE (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0608/11275.html)

Lots of splinters.

[HomeschoolrsRUs]

From the article cited:
McCain’s problem with the Republican base is not his lack of conservative credentials.

Yes it is.

From the article cited:
McCain is not a phony or apostate conservative.

Yes he is.

But that's just my opinion, :smirk:

[Maggie_T]

Splintered conservatives hurt McCain

CORRECTION: McCain splinters conservatives and he hurts conservatism.

[Suzie]

McCain’s defeat by the liberal Obama and the advent of a strengthened Democratic Congress would mark the end of the modern conservative era as clearly as President Franklin Roosevelt’s defeat of President Herbert Hoover in 1932 marked the end of the conservative 1920s.

My greatest fear. :(

[Maggie_T]

Well, maybe that's what it will take to wake the American people up. There is a saying in Spanish: La letra con sangre entra. Which losely translated means Nothing teaches like pain.

Maybe when Americans are given a taste of Marxism, they will wake up and realize what happens when they lose that which they always took for granted.

Yes, it will mean hard times. I'm betting on the American people's resilience to bounce back from tragedies like the Great Depression, WWI-WWII, Carter, and maybe Obama.

And if that does not wake them up, well, then we might as well know it sooner than later, and learn to tackle the problem.

[Suzie]

WV is still waiting for that maybe. 50 years of Democrats later and Conservatives no longer bother to run. I don't want to see the whole country become what this state has. No one will run under any conservative positions here because no one votes for any one who tries it, even if they have fewer conservative leanings than McCain so why would anyone bother to run if no one voted for the last guy who at least offered that. If they wont even vote against unrestricted abortion here once it happens nation wide we are doomed. They have their social programs and they want to keep them. Which is what we got with Roosevelt, and Obama has his healthcare New Deal.

[Maggie_T]

(shrug) As I said, better know it sooner than later. As Kathy30 said, Jimmy Carter gave us Ronald Reagan. Maybe HUSSEIN will have the same results.

Hey, I'm being optimistic, for once. http://freeconservatives.com/smilies/smilies2/icon88.gif

[Suzie]

I am not that optimistic.

Still, no one seems able to explain just how much we have to lose or what they are willing to sacrifice. Do we want it to come to war on our own soil because he thinks he can "talk" anyone out of killing us all ... tying the military's hands so they become targets and not defense? The stakes are a whole lot bigger than at any time in our nations history and enemies scattered across many lands waiting for another shot at us. We can lose a lot. People are fed up with the healthcare and are ready to jump on board and we know it will pass. The "Children's healthcare program" would have passed if Bush hadn't vetoed it. If they suck people into social programs in an industry where many people have had problems they are sold on it quick and that won't go away any faster than welfare ... food stamps... hud and all those other things. And on top of that no limits on killing the unborn.

You can't recover things that are completely destroyed. And I am afraid that is where we are heading. :sad:

[Penguin]

McCain and his sycophants would not need to keep talking about how "conservative" he is if he actually was a conservative. Actions speak louder than words and the kicking and yelling by he and his minions only mocks the whole movement.

[Naturalized-Texan]

McCain’s defeat by the liberal Obama and the advent of a strengthened Democratic Congress would mark the end of the modern conservative era...
Absolutely! And conservatism may never return during the lifetime of anyone who is posting here.

[DesertFox]

What Homes said.

What Maggie said.

What Penguin said.

McCain is back-and-forth on important conservative issues. He can't be trusted, and that's worst of all.

[Suzie]

So we just forget about Obama? I notice no one ever seems to mention him. We can list all of McCain's flaws in this thread and not discuss the article at all, but Obama is still going to win ... then what?

[Elgalad]

McCain is not a Conservative.

A McCain Presidency is not the "lesser" of two evils. Evil = Evil.

No matter who is elected, there will still be a United States of America in 2012.


-Elgalad

[Timberwolf]

Yup.

[RogerFGay]

The movement conservatives of the Reagan era rejected gradual change and sought to smash the liberal order and restore America’s commitment to traditional moral values, private enterprise and robust anti-communism.

If by "liberal" he means Democrat, and by "restore America’s commitment to traditional moral values, private enterprise and robust anti-communism" he means transforming the Republican Party into an alternative socialist party to the Democratic Party ... ok.

[Beowulf]

Well, maybe that's what it will take to wake the American people up. There is a saying in Spanish: La letra con sangre entra. Which losely translated means Nothing teaches like pain.

Maybe when Americans are given a taste of Marxism, they will wake up and realize what happens when they lose that which they always took for granted.

Yes, it will mean hard times. I'm betting on the American people's resilience to bounce back from tragedies like the Great Depression, WWI-WWII, Carter, and maybe Obama.

And if that does not wake them up, well, then we might as well know it sooner than later, and learn to tackle the problem.


Yes, Maggie, that IS what it will take. When the Libs who voted him into office see their own taxes skyrocketing, the IRS bullying them over it, their gas costing $6/gallon and progress completely halted in favor of saving a critter that doesn't need saving, then maybe they'll realize they screwed up. I think the tax part will be enough. Last I knew, anyone who gets hit in the wallet is giving the assailant their undivided attention.

[Lubbock]

Whar Fox said.

[MSGT]

McCain is not a Conservative. True

A McCain Presidency is not the "lesser" of two evils. Evil = Evil.disagree...A lie isn't the same as murder. There are degrees of evil.

No matter who is elected, there will still be a United States of America in 2012.True, but what will it look like in 2012.


-Elgalad I thought your name would be green by now:confused:

[Suzie]

People aren't the same as they were in WWI and WWII. They had to work hard to survive. The very thing that destroyed that is what we are facing again. And the more they are handed the less they will work to try and keep. People are weak, if everyone was like they were then we might survive this, but those kind of people are very rare now. We have had members here in the past who claimed to be conservatives living off some kind of assistance that they would have never had during that time and even they would have had to find someway to take care of themselves. Any more big programs like the one Obama will pass for healthcare will only weaken us more. I am living it on the state level right now and it can easily become nationwide. The people here are historically known as doing the hardest dirtiest jobs... that's a fable now.

[HooverWasRight]

What Homes said.

What Maggie said.

What Penguin said.

McCain is back-and-forth on important conservative issues. He can't be trusted, and that's worst of all.

McCain is another dick from Arizona...but I wouldn't mention the other one. :question:

[Naturalized-Texan]

Those who claim that we will recover from 4 or 8 years of an Obama presidency as we did following the Carter presidency are forgetting, or ignoring, the fact that congressional Democrats today are faaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrr more extreme than congressional Democrats were when Carter was president. The majority of congressional Democrats during the Carter years were what we now refer to as moderate Democrats on the order of Zell Miller who were willing to work with Republicans and, when Reagan won in 1980, were willing to work with him. Those moderate Democrats are long gone.

That's why I am convinced that conservatism may never return during the lifetime of anyone who is posting here if Obama is elected president with a Democrat congress.

[Maggie_T]

People aren't the same as they were in WWI and WWII. They had to work hard to survive. The very thing that destroyed that is what we are facing again. And the more they are handed the less they will work to try and keep. People are weak, if everyone was like they were then we might survive this, but those kind of people are very rare now.


Absolutely. And THAT is our biggest problem, which will NOT be solved, or even stalled, by electing a RINO like McCain.

Believe me, Suze, I understand your concerns. The problem is that some people seem to believe that lefist started in 2000. They seem to believe that it is a recent event, and that all it takes to get rid of it is consistently voting republican.

Leftism has been creeping into this country for decades. The problem goes far deeper than the voting booth. Education is shot (in spite of all the good teachers that - while few and far between - still exist), and I will say till the day I die that that is the left's greatest success: the dumbing down of America, the brainwashing of our kids, to the point that nowadays, they can't even find the UK on the map. Nor do they have the slightest idea of what made this country great. History is nothing more than the glorification of dead white males who kept slaves, etc., etc.

The cancer of leftism has been corroding this country for more than 40 years. Voting for McCain is like trying to put a band aid on that cancer. I do believe that the only hope we have left is that the American people will be dealt a painful blow with this election. And there can be only two results: either we fight back, or we succumb (like Europe).

But voting for someone who's wobbly (at best) on handling one of the worst threats to our nation, illegal immigration, is NOT going to solve the problem. Not to mention that if he pissed on the Constitution once, he can easily do it a second time. And a third ...

[Maggie_T]

Those who claim that we will recover from 4 or 8 years of an Obama presidency as we did following the Carter presidency are forgetting, or ignoring, the fact that congressional Democrats today are faaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrr more extreme than congressional Democrats were when Carter was president.

Which is why I intend to vote for many good republicans (yes, there still are some) who runs for senate, house, governorship, etc.

I just refuse to vote for a RINO president.

[Suzie]

I guess we will just have to disagree. We have had those wobbly Republicans here and things were far better with them than they ever are with the dems in control of everything. Cecil Underwood was a McCain like Republican and he has been governor here twice, once as a young man and again years later. Both times he was governor we had new Guard Armories built, he actually expanded some he built that aged since his first go round as our youngest governor ever after he became our oldest ever. We had infrastructure replacement with water and sewer. New shopping areas went in. And since he left and 2 more democrats later they have halted and in some cases destroyed all the progress he made.

The only reason Cecil Underwood made it to be elected was because his opponent was a woman and apparently for Democrats here old white guys trump female candidates and female candidates trump black ones in the prejuduces of being a Dem. But if those old white men aren't as free with the handouts as the democrats they get ousted and replaced again with the more liberal democrat. Conservates are a myth of used to be here because we allowed the democrats to gain control of the entire state 100% so people can keep their programs growing, and that is where we are headed with the whole country with people living as bad as it gets, but willing to stay that way to get what they can for free from the government. If you don't keep what you can get, or at least try for a little bit of what you want like we had with Underwood ... you lose everything and you won't get it back... EVER.

[Maggie_T]

We'll see.

[Suzie]

I have already seen ... and I don't want to see it again anywhere else or on a grand scale. :(

[Naturalized-Texan]

I just refuse to vote for a RINO president.
So, are you saying that you would rather we have a far-left president with a far-left Congress that will ensure that conservatism may never return during the lifetime of anyone who is posting here?

[Maggie_T]

No. YOU are saying that.

I've gone blue in the face explaining why I won't vote for McCain. I don't like to repeat myself.

[Lazarus]

My greatest fear. :(I think this statement defines the great divide between the two camps in this forum... One side is driven by an unwaivering belief in Conservative principles and a disregard for party/gang loyalty... The other side is driven by..........fear...

That is the sad, naked truth of the matter...

A President McCain will be the single catalyst that the leftists in this country have always needed to silence the opposition to their Marxist agenda... No Republican in Congress will oppose a seated Republican President, even if he IS a Marxist himself... They will put party loyalty above Conservative principles... This is what the Left is betting on - This is what will happen...

McCain will be the killing blow to the Republican party...

Maybe in the long run, after many years of the Socialist revolution in America that McCain will usher in, sometime after I'm dead, Conservatism will rise from the ashes under a new opposition party - And the grandchildren of those who empowered McCain and his agenda out of blind fear of the old hated enemy, will spill their blood so that their children will live free again...

Subsequent generations always pay the bill for the actions of their ancestors... This is what happens when people stop voting FOR principles and start voting based on Fear...:sulk:

[Lazarus]

So, are you saying that you would rather we have a far-left president with a far-left Congress that will ensure that conservatism may never return during the lifetime of anyone who is posting here?No, that's what YOU are saying... You'll vote for a Republican just because he's a Republican even if he was Joseph Stalin...

McCain IS a Far-left Candidate... And he's going to prove that to you and America just as soon as he sits in the Whitehouse and begins his reign of terror along with his old friends in the Far left Congress...

[Beowulf]

So, are you saying that you would rather we have a far-left president with a far-left Congress that will ensure that conservatism may never return during the lifetime of anyone who is posting here?

I see you are continuing to bully people into seeing things your way. As with Maggie and a few others, you have heard why we won't support McPain. I'm not going at length all over again. You vote your conscience, I will vote mine.

[Suzie]

I think this statement defines the great divide between the two camps in this forum... One side is driven by an unwaivering belief in Conservative principles and a disregard for party/gang loyalty... The other side is driven by..........fear...

That is the sad, naked truth of the matter...

A President McCain will be the single catalyst that the leftists in this country have always needed to silence the opposition to their Marxist agenda... No Republican in Congress will oppose a seated Republican President, even if he IS a Marxist himself... They will put party loyalty above Conservative principles... This is what the Left is betting on - This is what will happen...

McCain will be the killing blow to the Republican party...

Maybe in the long run, after many years of the Socialist revolution in America that McCain will usher in, sometime after I'm dead, Conservatism will rise from the ashes under a new opposition party - And the grandchildren of those who empowered McCain and his agenda out of blind fear of the old hated enemy, will spill their blood so that their children will live free again...

Subsequent generations always pay the bill for the actions of their ancestors... This is what happens when people stop voting FOR principles and start voting based on Fear...:sulk:

It has nothing to do with who's running, It has to do with who's voting ... or not voting as the case may be. That's what I am afraid of. People who quit voting for what they believe in and allowing nothing they believe in to take over just so they can get a check from the government. It happened here. I am voting for principles and one candidate says he is for unrestricted abortion, throwing away all our military has accomplished and giving me a healthcare plan I don't want, and people in this country are going to make that happen. Not me I am voting against it.

[Longhorn_Platinum]

Elgalad:
No matter who is elected, there will still be a United States of America in 2012.

:question: But how much of its freedoms will remain?

[Longhorn_Platinum]

Lazarus:
I think this statement defines the great divide between the two camps in this forum... One side is driven by an unwaivering belief in Conservative principles and a disregard for party/gang loyalty... The other side is driven by..........fear...

:rolleyes: Yes, of course, the anti-McCainers are standing solely on principles, while the rest of us are craven cowards. It's that kind of rhetoric that is causing hard feelings among friends.

[Naturalized-Texan]

I see you are continuing to bully people into seeing things your way. As with Maggie and a few others, you have heard why we won't support McPain. I'm not going at length all over again. You vote your conscience, I will vote mine.
I see that you are continuing to try to bully me in a futile attempt to prevent me from expressing my position that by not voting or voting for a 3rd party candidate, conservatives will actually be helping Obama become president. If Obama becomes president with a Democrat Congress, we can kiss goodbye to any hope for a conservative resurgence anytime in the lifetime of anyone posting here. As Doc has stated many times, if Obama becomes president with a Democrat Congress, there may not even be a presidential election in 2012.

At least with McCain as president, there is still a chance that we will be able to preserve conservatism for a resurgence in 2012.

[Naturalized-Texan]

:rolleyes: Yes, of course, the anti-McCainers are standing solely on principles, while the rest of us are craven cowards. It's that kind of rhetoric that is causing hard feelings among friends.
Hear! Hear! :claps::claps:

[Longhorn_Platinum]

Suzie:
I am voting for principles and one candidate says he is for unrestricted abortion, throwing away all our military has accomplished and giving me a healthcare plan I don't want, and people in this country are going to make that happen. Not me I am voting against it.

:unsmile: Suzie, it's inconceivable to some here that we're standing on our own principles, when they think they're the only ones doing so. I'm supporting McCain because he's pro-life, & that's my number one principle.

:unsmile: And the anti-McCainers can refrain from wasting their time "proving" to me that McCain isn't really pro-life, because he's more pro-life than his opponent. Even if McCain were a 1 on a scale of 0 to 100, his opponent is still a complete ZERO. Last I checked, 1>0. I'm voting for the better of the two viable choices. I'm more realistic than to wait for a nominee who rates 100, or even 90, because they're few & far between. To those of you who are standing on "principles" by not voting for McCain, I'm truly sorry we didn't get the second coming of Ronald Reagan, or even the first coming of Fred Thompson, but I'm not going to sit back & let...

:fart2: ...Baaarrraaaccckkk!!!,...

:unsmile: ...Who's Insane, O[s]ama win, when I could have had a president with who I agree at least part of the time. Kindly refrain from acting as if your "principles" are superior to mine.

[Maggie_T]

Once and for all, I am NOT accusing anyone of not voting his/her principles. I understand that you all vote on principles, just like I do.

Hopefully, I will only have to say this once.

[Suzie]

Once and for all, I am NOT accusing anyone of not voting his/her principles. I understand that you all vote on principles, just like I do.

Hopefully, I will only have to say this once.

Thank you Maggie. May I give you a hug for that one? :hugs:

[Penguin]

There is nothing wrong with voting on principle. And like opinions and a-holes, we all have them. IAC, it is a hell of a lot better than voting purely based on greed, laziness and power as the Left always does and will always do.

[Maggie_T]

Thank you Maggie. May I give you a hug for that one? :hugs:

Right back at you, ducky. :hugs:

[Naturalized-Texan]

:unsmile: Suzie, it's inconceivable to some here that we're standing on our own principles, when they think they're the only ones doing so. I'm supporting McCain because he's pro-life, & that's my number one principle.
I will also vote for McCain because he is pro-life as well as the fact that he is also right on two of my other top issues: the War on Terror and the economy.

"Baaarrraaaccckkk!!!,...

...Who's Insane, O[s]ama," is wrong on those issues as well as several others where McCain is right.

Consequently, I will be standing on my principles by voting for McCain.

[MSGT]

I think this statement defines the great divide between the two camps in this forum... One side is driven by an unwaivering belief in Conservative principles and a disregard for party/gang loyalty... The other side is driven by..........fear...

That is the sad, naked truth of the matter...

A President McCain will be the single catalyst that the leftists in this country have always needed to silence the opposition to their Marxist agenda... No Republican in Congress will oppose a seated Republican President, even if he IS a Marxist himself... They will put party loyalty above Conservative principles... This is what the Left is betting on - This is what will happen...

McCain will be the killing blow to the Republican party...

Maybe in the long run, after many years of the Socialist revolution in America that McCain will usher in, sometime after I'm dead, Conservatism will rise from the ashes under a new opposition party - And the grandchildren of those who empowered McCain and his agenda out of blind fear of the old hated enemy, will spill their blood so that their children will live free again...

Subsequent generations always pay the bill for the actions of their ancestors... This is what happens when people stop voting FOR principles and start voting based on Fear...:sulk:Wow, How big is that horse you're on. Nice of ya to look down your nose to speak to the quivering masses. Your strength and courage have you astounded.

[PrezLeefun]

So we just forget about Obama? I notice no one ever seems to mention him. We can list all of McCain's flaws in this thread and not discuss the article at all, but Obama is still going to win ... then what?

You know Suz I am terrified of Obama. But I am starting to think that Ann C. had a point. We could endure 4 years under Obama and have a strong Republican comeback 2012 or we could have a weak Republican now and endure 14-18 years of Democrats.

[Elgalad]

Originally Posted by Elgalad http://www.freeconservatives.com/vb/../images/patriot/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.freeconservatives.com/vb/showthread.php?p=694266#post694266)
A McCain Presidency is not the "lesser" of two evils. Evil = Evil.
disagree...A lie isn't the same as murder. There are degrees of evil.

Not in God's eyes. And no, I'm not suggesting we should apply a standard of perfection to our candidates, but neither should we be willing to ignore blatantly unacceptable problems with one candidate simply because we have only been offered two choices. Compromise is a very slippery slope.

True, but what will it look like in 2012.

Pretty much the same as it did in 1968, 1980, and 2000. In other words, ready for a shift back to the Right.

Those who claim that we will recover from 4 or 8 years of an Obama presidency as we did following the Carter presidency are forgetting, or ignoring, the fact that congressional Democrats today are faaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrr more extreme than congressional Democrats were when Carter was president. The majority of congressional Democrats during the Carter years were what we now refer to as moderate Democrats on the order of Zell Miller who were willing to work with Republicans and, when Reagan won in 1980, were willing to work with him. Those moderate Democrats are long gone.

Nah, there never were 'more moderate DemonRats' in the good old days. Just ones that knew how to cut deals. Sort of like this guy..
http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/9569/mccainimmigrationkennedpc7.gif
(actually, he was around back then too)


Or this guy.
http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/2640/mfum5.jpg

Or this guy.
http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/7207/mccainrl4.jpg

Or..
http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/5530/mccainclintonlz0.jpg
(hey, I didn't say it..;) )

No Tex, I'd say the deal makers are still very much active in Washington.

That's why I am convinced that conservatism may never return during the lifetime of anyone who is posting here if Obama is elected president with a Democrat congress.

Then lets make sure he doesn't get a demonRat Congress!

Problem solved. :biggrin:

I think this statement defines the great divide between the two camps in this forum... One side is driven by an unwaivering belief in Conservative principles and a disregard for party/gang loyalty... The other side is driven by..........fear...

..snip..

Subsequent generations always pay the bill for the actions of their ancestors... This is what happens when people stop voting FOR principles and start voting based on Fear...:sulk:

Laz, I do believe you've nailed it. :thumb:

:question: But how much of its freedoms will remain?

As many as we deserve (http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html), and as few as we are willing to fight for (http://www.parapundit.com/archives/004355.html).

:rolleyes: Yes, of course, the anti-McCainers are standing solely on principles, while the rest of us are craven cowards. It's that kind of rhetoric that is causing hard feelings among friends.

I agree that the rhetoric on both sides has gotten extreme at times. I can't speak for Lazarus, but I don't believe he intended to lampoon anyone as a coward for standing on their beliefs. I certainly don't feel that way, and I Do greatly respect you and Suzie, and Tex, MSGT, et al for maintaining your commitment to stop what you all perceive as a greater threat than a President McCain. I absolutely do Not agree with that, but it does not diminish my respect for you.

It Is incredibly unfortunate that we are all so split over this one 'last choice' candidate. If we can agree on nothing else regarding him, we should at least acknowledge that he Is the ultimate cause for this rift. For that alone, he should be held accountable someday.

To those of you who are standing on "principles" by not voting for McCain, I'm truly sorry we didn't get the second coming of Ronald Reagan, or even the first coming of Fred Thompson, but I'm not going to sit back & let...

:fart2: ...Baaarrraaaccckkk!!!,...

:unsmile: ...Who's Insane, O[s]ama win, when I could have had a president with who I agree at least part of the time. Kindly refrain from acting as if your "principles" are superior to mine.

You got it, Moo. :unsmile:

Please remember though, it's a two way street.


-Elgalad

[Suzie]

You know Suz I am terrified of Obama. But I am starting to think that Ann C. had a point. We could endure 4 years under Obama and have a strong Republican comeback 2012 or we could have a weak Republican now and endure 14-18 years of Democrats.

Ann Coulter is voting against Obama. She will tick the ballot for McCain just as she did Bob Dole, whom she frequently compares him to. (Google Coulter Dole McCain)


During the Q-and-A portion, Coulter said that she would “vote against Obama. I voted for Bob Dole; it’s not a vivid memory, but I did it. ... (http://www.newuniversity.org/main/article?slug=coulter_causes_controversy155)

[Timberwolf]

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border: 1px inset ;"> Originally Posted by Elgalad http://www.freeconservatives.com/vb/../images/patriot/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.freeconservatives.com/vb/showthread.php?p=694266#post694266)
A McCain Presidency is not the "lesser" of two evils. Evil = Evil. </td> </tr> </tbody></table>
Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border: 1px inset ;"> Originally Posted by MSGT http://www.freeconservatives.com/vb/../images/patriot/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.freeconservatives.com/vb/showthread.php?p=694330#post694330)
disagree...A lie isn't the same as murder. There are degrees of evil.
</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
Not in God's eyes. And no, I'm not suggesting we should apply a standard of perfection to our candidates, but neither should we be willing to ignore blatantly unacceptable problems with one candidate simply because we have only been offered two choices. Compromise is a very slippery slope.

Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border: 1px inset ;"> Originally Posted by MSGT http://www.freeconservatives.com/vb/../images/patriot/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.freeconservatives.com/vb/showthread.php?p=694330#post694330)
True, but what will it look like in 2012.
</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
Pretty much the same as it did in 1968, 1980, and 2000. In other words, ready for a shift back to the Right.

Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border: 1px inset ;"> Originally Posted by Naturalized-Texan http://www.freeconservatives.com/vb/../images/patriot/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.freeconservatives.com/vb/showthread.php?p=694401#post694401)
Those who claim that we will recover from 4 or 8 years of an Obama presidency as we did following the Carter presidency are forgetting, or ignoring, the fact that congressional Democrats today are faaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrr more extreme than congressional Democrats were when Carter was president. The majority of congressional Democrats during the Carter years were what we now refer to as moderate Democrats on the order of Zell Miller who were willing to work with Republicans and, when Reagan won in 1980, were willing to work with him. Those moderate Democrats are long gone.
</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
Nah, there never were 'more moderate DemonRats' in the good old days. Just ones that knew how to cut deals. Sort of like this guy..
http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/9569/mccainimmigrationkennedpc7.gif
(actually, he was around back then too)


Or this guy.
http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/2640/mfum5.jpg

Or this guy.
http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/7207/mccainrl4.jpg

Or..
http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/5530/mccainclintonlz0.jpg
(hey, I didn't say it..;) )

No Tex, I'd say the deal makers are still very much active in Washington.

Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border: 1px inset ;"> Originally Posted by Naturalized-Texan http://www.freeconservatives.com/vb/../images/patriot/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.freeconservatives.com/vb/showthread.php?p=694401#post694401)
That's why I am convinced that conservatism may never return during the lifetime of anyone who is posting here if Obama is elected president with a Democrat congress.
</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
Then lets make sure he doesn't get a demonRat Congress!

Problem solved. :biggrin:

Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border: 1px inset ;"> Originally Posted by Lazarus http://www.freeconservatives.com/vb/../images/patriot/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.freeconservatives.com/vb/showthread.php?p=694477#post694477)
I think this statement defines the great divide between the two camps in this forum... One side is driven by an unwaivering belief in Conservative principles and a disregard for party/gang loyalty... The other side is driven by..........fear...

..snip..

Subsequent generations always pay the bill for the actions of their ancestors... This is what happens when people stop voting FOR principles and start voting based on Fear...:sulk:
</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
Laz, I do believe you've nailed it. :thumb:

Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border: 1px inset ;"> Originally Posted by Longhorn_Platinum http://www.freeconservatives.com/vb/../images/patriot/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.freeconservatives.com/vb/showthread.php?p=694528#post694528)
:question: But how much of its freedoms will remain?
</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
As many as we deserve (http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html), and as few as we are willing to fight for (http://www.parapundit.com/archives/004355.html).

Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border: 1px inset ;"> Originally Posted by Longhorn_Platinum http://www.freeconservatives.com/vb/../images/patriot/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.freeconservatives.com/vb/showthread.php?p=694533#post694533)
:rolleyes: Yes, of course, the anti-McCainers are standing solely on principles, while the rest of us are craven cowards. It's that kind of rhetoric that is causing hard feelings among friends.
</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
I agree that the rhetoric on both sides has gotten extreme at times. I can't speak for Lazarus, but I don't believe he intended to lampoon anyone as a coward for standing on their beliefs. I certainly don't feel that way, and I Do greatly respect you and Suzie, and Tex, MSGT, et al for maintaining your commitment to stop what you all perceive as a greater threat than a President McCain. I absolutely do Not agree with that, but it does not diminish my respect for you.

It Is incredibly unfortunate that we are all so split over this one 'last choice' candidate. If we can agree on nothing else regarding him, we should at least acknowledge that he Is the ultimate cause for this rift. For that alone, he should be held accountable someday.

Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border: 1px inset ;"> Originally Posted by Longhorn_Platinum http://www.freeconservatives.com/vb/../images/patriot/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.freeconservatives.com/vb/showthread.php?p=694543#post694543)
To those of you who are standing on "principles" by not voting for McCain, I'm truly sorry we didn't get the second coming of Ronald Reagan, or even the first coming of Fred Thompson, but I'm not going to sit back & let...

:fart2: ...Baaarrraaaccckkk!!!,...

:unsmile: ...Who's Insane, O[s]ama win, when I could have had a president with who I agree at least part of the time. Kindly refrain from acting as if your "principles" are superior to mine.
</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
You got it, Moo. :unsmile:

Please remember though, it's a two way street.


-Elgalad


:yeahthat:

[PrezLeefun]

Ann Coulter is voting against Obama. She will tick the ballot for McCain just as she did Bob Dole, whom she frequently compares him to. (Google Coulter Dole McCain)


During the Q-and-A portion, Coulter said that she would “vote against Obama. I voted for Bob Dole; it’s not a vivid memory, but I did it. ... (http://www.newuniversity.org/main/article?slug=coulter_causes_controversy155)

I am saying she had a point. I'm no longer sure I will follow her lead.

[Suzie]

I am saying she had a point. I'm no longer sure I will follow her lead.

Fair enough. But I don't think anyone here thinks she is voting out of fear now do they? I am sure like the rest of us making that vote she just thinks Obama would be far worse and we might not recover anything. She placed her bets on Hillary and she lost. Now the far more liberal Obama seems more of a threat.

[MSGT]

Not in God's eyes.Not true. All sin makes you imperfect but not all are the same. There's the unpardonable sin, the sin leading to death, not to mention the sanctuary cities in the OT and the different punishments for different sins set forth by God.
And no, I'm not suggesting we should apply a standard of perfection to our candidates, but neither should we be willing to ignore blatantly unacceptable problems with one candidate simply because we have only been offered two choices. Compromise is a very slippery slope.
Either McCain or Bammy will be the next president.

[Etaoin]

I rather doubt that there is anyone on the board who dislikes McCain more than I do.

If you think the election of Obama would make it possible for a conservative resurgence echoing 1980, then you are obviously smoking some pretty heavy dope. The left is rabidly vicious!!! Given the power of the presidency and 28 years of indoctrination by the FEDERAL DEPT. OF "EDUCATION" they will appoint at least 2 on SCOTUS.

You can count on a "Fairness" doctrine that will silence the remnants of the first amendment, talk radio. The 2nd amentment will be eviscerted with a SCOTUS similar to California's 11th circuit.

Forget Posse Comitatis, homeland security will be turned against American citizenry who still believe a constitution will protect them.

The lunatics will have taken over the asylum and it will be too damned late for a "do-over."

The left would like nothing better than a reprise of the French Revolution.

"OFF WITH THEIR HEADS!"

Sooo....be principled, It just may be your last opportunity to do so!

[Elgalad]

I rather doubt that there is anyone on the board who dislikes McCain more than I do.

That's funny, I could say the same thing myself. In fact I wonder if there's anyone on this board that actually Does like McCain. ;)

Okay, so we all loathe the guy. It's good to agree on some things..

If you think the election of Obama would make it possible for a conservative resurgence echoing 1980, then you are obviously smoking some pretty heavy dope. The left is rabidly vicious!!! Given the power of the presidency and 28 years of indoctrination by the FEDERAL DEPT. OF "EDUCATION" they will appoint at least 2 on SCOTUS. Well, I don't 'smoke dope', but I do believe Obama will bring about a dramatic backlash against liberalism if he is elected. I agree that the left is viciously rabid!!! But I'll also point out that they're also laughably impotent. They've had complete control of both Houses for almost two straight years now and the only thing(s) they've been able to do (asinine farm bill legislation) have been With the tacit support of RINO 'pubs such as Join McKennedy. As for the SCOTUS nominees (I don't know where you were going with the 28 years of indoctrination..) yeah, we can expect Obama will nominate another couple Ginsburgs. Of course the alternative would be for McCain to nominate another couple Souters. Pick your Poison, I guess.

You can count on a "Fairness" doctrine that will silence the remnants of the first amendment, talk radio. The 2nd amentment will be eviscerted with a SCOTUS similar to California's 11th circuit.Wait.. We still have a First Amendment?!?! (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/21/AR2007112101859.html) :ooo:

Forget Posse Comitatis, homeland security will be turned against American citizenry who still believe a constitution will protect them.Actually some of us feel it is our responsibility to protect the Constitution. (http://www.marines.cc/content/view/5/6/1/10/) Which is why I can never in good conscience vote for Juan McFeingold.

The lunatics will have taken over the asylum and it will be too damned late for a "do-over." There are no do-overs. Only next elections. Whoever finally gets elected this year, we're going to suffer through four years of rampant liberalism. Whether we have a chance to recover from that depends on whether there is an alternative to choose from in 2012. And That depends on whether we compromise that alternative now or whether we preserve it.

The left would like nothing better than a reprise of the French Revolution.

"OFF WITH THEIR HEADS!" Okay here ya lost me. :confused:

Sooo....be principled, It just may be your last opportunity to do so!Alright! I Will! I'll stick to my principles and vote for Conservatives for Congress and the Senate, since there are no Presidential candidates worth voting for.

:patriot:


-Elgalad

[MSGT]

Can you recall a president:biggrin:

[Beowulf]

I see that you are continuing to try to bully me in a futile attempt to prevent me from expressing my position that by not voting or voting for a 3rd party candidate, conservatives will actually be helping Obama become president.


No, Tex, I am not bullying anyone. How would voting 3rd party be helping Obama? I'm curious. I'm helping Obama ONLY if I check the box by his name.
Remember, Conservatives haven't abadoned the GOP, the GOP has abandoned us and even spit on us a good many times. When someone wrongs me, they have made an enemy for life so why should I cave and support someone who has wronged me?

[MSGT]

I think this statement defines the great divide between the two camps in this forum... One side is driven by an unwaivering belief in Conservative principles and a disregard for party/gang loyalty... The other side is driven by..........fear...

That is the sad, naked truth of the matter...

A President McCain will be the single catalyst that the leftists in this country have always needed to silence the opposition to their Marxist agenda... No Republican in Congress will oppose a seated Republican President, even if he IS a Marxist himself... They will put party loyalty above Conservative principles... This is what the Left is betting on - This is what will happen...

McCain will be the killing blow to the Republican party...

Maybe in the long run, after many years of the Socialist revolution in America that McCain will usher in, sometime after I'm dead, Conservatism will rise from the ashes under a new opposition party - And the grandchildren of those who empowered McCain and his agenda out of blind fear of the old hated enemy, will spill their blood so that their children will live free again...

Subsequent generations always pay the bill for the actions of their ancestors... This is what happens when people stop voting FOR principles and start voting based on Fear...:sulk:Ya know, I haven't been following threads as closely as some of you guys but this post is so over the top, you may want to apologize to any poster that you don't hold in complete contempt. This is one of the most arrogant, pompous, insulting posts I've read on this board. That is unless it was meant as troll bait. I understand those that won't vote for McCain and don't blame them. But to be attacked with such a venomous condescending rant, that can see into the future generations no less, is disappointing and reminiscent to dem tactics. If you are as clairvoyant as you state, you should have seen how this post would have been received.

Also Elgalad, sorry bro, you can't have it both ways. You can't give a post like this a thumbs up then state in the same post that you respect the views of those that were slandered from this post.

[Lubbock]

I'm not voting for McVain on PRINCIPLE --I'm not voting for him out of pure, unadulterated HATE.

I have never, never, never, ever like the man --for more years than I can rmember, I've had a deep dislike for him.

Now, I purely hate him.

He has stuck his finger in the eye of Republicans and Conservatives at every turn for as long as I can remember. He's curried favor with the Libs for as long as I can remember.

As far as I'm concerned, it's time for the Turncoat Asshole to get a big bite on the butt from the very people whose ass he's kissed for more years than I can remember.

Supreme Court Justices?

You don't think for one minute he's going to stick to that promise, if it means the NYT and Ted Kennedy will pat him on the head, do you?

Right to Life?

He would change that position in a heartbeat if it meant a positive column in the Washington Compost. In fact, I don't believe he's committed to Right to Life. I think that's just something he spouts in order to get a few conservative votes.

McCain/Finegold?

I hope it bites him where it hurts.

Osamabamabammy will be the worst thing that ever happened to this Nation, but if keeping him out of the seat of power means I have to vote for McCain, then you all better get used to saying, "President Osamabamabammy."

[Elgalad]

Also Elgalad, sorry bro, you can't have it both ways. You can't give a post like this a thumbs up then state in the same post that you respect the views of those that were slandered from this post.

Actually, I do believe I said I respect the persons who expressed those views. I don't recall saying anything about respecting their views, in fact I think I made clear that I absolutely disagree with them.

Just clarifying, MSGT. :smirky:

I stand by my earlier post.


-Elgalad

[Longhorn_Platinum]

Lubbock:
I'm not not voting for McVain on PRINCIPLE --I'm not not voting for him out of pure, unadulterated HATE.

:question: Um, okay, if you're not not voting for him out of principle or hatred, then why are you not voting for him?

[Longhorn_Platinum]

Lubbock:
Right to Life?

He would change that position in a heartbeat if it meant a positive column in the Washington Compost. In fact, I don't believe he's committed to Right to Life. I think that's just something he spouts in order to get a few conservative votes.

:unsmile: It will be on my conscience if a pro-abortion wacko becomes president, if I don't vote for the candidate who says he's pro-life. If McCain goes back on his word, it should be on his conscience.

[Longhorn_Platinum]

Elgalad:
Not in God's eyes.

:unsmile: I've heard this for years. Is there a Bible reference for it?

[Elgalad]

Many, though I see the point that you're trying to make. Even so, to the extent that all sin removes us from the righteousness of God, there is absolutely no distinction. There may very well be different 'levels' of sin, but sin is still sin, and evil is still evil. THIS is the point that I was trying to make.

Continuing this further would be an excellent subject for another thread, but because it changes the debate from a political one to a religious one, perhaps that conversation would be better conducted in the religion forum.


-Elgalad

[Lubbock]

I respect any and all opinions regarding a vote for or against McCain, as well as respect the people here at FC who hold those opinions.

That's just basic decency.

I just can't see the issue as something to get my knickers in a knot over --one way or the other.

It is what it is, and whatever happens, happens.

This old earth is going to keep right on spinning on her axis.

Bet on it.

[Lazarus]

I see that you are continuing to try to bully me in a futile attempt to prevent me from expressing my position that by not voting or voting for a 3rd party candidate, conservatives will actually be helping Obama become president.Express yourself all you want to - Argue your reasons for taking your stand and I'll take shots at those arguements when I see that they are invalid... But if you continue with this rude and aggressive bully's tactic of accusing those of us who will not support McCain of actively supporting Obama, you damned well better be ready to get a bloody nose over it...

We Anti-McCains have so far tired to contain our arguments to the flaws we see in McCain as an acceptable candidate and are attacking your arguments FOR McCain - But YOU have made this a personal attack with your incessant accusations of us supporting Obama or wanting Obama to be president when you KNOW DAMNED WELL that is a LIE... Yet knowing its a lie, you still persist in using that Bully's tactic... One wonders why...

Well now you you know how far we will tolerate your bad behavior... I have run out of patience with this bully's tactic of yours... If you're going to dish it out, you damned well better be ready to take it - You debate in a civil, respectful tone - I'll debate in a civil, respectful tone... You use personal attacks and accuse me of wanting Obama for president, prepare for a pointed and untactful response...

If Obama becomes president with a Democrat Congress, we can kiss goodbye to any hope for a conservative resurgence anytime in the lifetime of anyone posting here.If McCain becomes preisdent with a Democrat Congress, we can kiss goodbye to any hope for a conservative resurgence EVER!!! McCain has been in the Democrat camp for years in case you haven't noticed... And No Republican in Congress is going to buck a Republican president regardless of how evil and Leftist his policies are...

We saw how Republicans in Congress acted toward bad policies from Bush - They just lined up like little puppies and rubber-stamped anything he wanted... We gave the Pubs both houses of Congress and the Whitehouse - I challenge anyone to tell me what more we could have done... And what did we get for our efforts? Where was the Conservative resurgence?

In the past when I have pointed out this betrayal of our trust, SOME HERE have pointedly accused me of being naiive because according to them, "Everyone knew Bush was no Conservative" and I was stupid for expecting Conservative policies from a Non-Conservative... And now today you expect me to support one who doesn't even have the subtlety of Bush to try to cover up his Liberal tendancies - He proudly flaunts them before us... But now magically we're supposed to get a Conservative Resurgance from such a Leftist?

Everything we got under Bush and every bad policy that was stopped happened not because of a Conservative resurgance among Pubs in Congress - These things happened because We the People got on our hind legs and threatend our glorious represntatives, burned their phones off the wall, if they didn't do OUR WILL... Bush tried to give us Harriet Myers - We forced him to choose Alito...

Bush tried to get his Amnesty Betrayal Bill thru the Senate with the help of his friends McCain and Kennedy and Lindsey Grahamnesty - It was WE the People who threatened them with immediate political execution if they didn't stop it...

Must we ride herd on our REPUBLICAN representatives 24 hours in order to make them do our will? Must we elected representatives of the people just to watch over and mind the other representatives we sent to Washington? This has become a farce...

Explain to me how we get a resurgance of Conservatism in Washington by empowering leftist Country Club RINOs... Just how far to the left are we supposed to follow these bastards in a vain hope of somehow magically refining gold from the bucket of shit they are peddling?

As Doc has stated many times, if Obama becomes president with a Democrat Congress, there may not even be a presidential election in 2012.

At least with McCain as president, there is still a chance that we will be able to preserve conservatism for a resurgence in 2012.There is absiolutely NO facts to back up that assertion... McCain's own past actions prove that to be nothing but unjustified, desperate, wishful thinking...

I have stated in the past and will continue to state that I will never chide anyone here of voting their conscience - I WILL continue to try to convince everyone of the foolishness of empowering a Leftist and expecting Conservative results, and when President McCain screws this country I will point it out each and everytime... But I will never attack anyone for the PRIVATE decision they make in the voting booth... I have even extended that courtesy to the Pauliacs even though I vehemently oppose their candidate...

I will continue to point out that this election is already lost to the Socialists - They are simply trying to decide which tyrannt they will put in the Whitehouse... And its past time for all true Conservatives to grow up and face the hard cold facts... Continuing to support McCain in some vain hope that he will save the day on a single key issue while he sells us into Socialist slavery is foolishness - McCain himself is going to prove that to each of us...

I don't choose between Socialists... I don't believe its my moral obligation to choose between two evil gangs... The Pubs have abandoned ME, and I will have no part in their destruction of this nation...

[DesertFox]

What Lubbock said in various posts on this page of this thread.

If you think the election of Obama would make it possible for a conservative resurgence echoing 1980, then you are obviously smoking some pretty heavy dope. "Obviously"? My friend, I don't smoke at all. Nothing. Zip. Zilch. Zero. Not tobacco, not oregano, not banana peels, and not heavy dope.

I DO drink a bit. Beer. No hard stuff. Lotsa water, lotsa coffee. No river water, no energy drinks, no panther piss, no projectile vomit, no Jane Fonda crotch sweat.

[DesertFox]

the Socialist revolution in America that McCain will usher in The socialist revolution was ushered in by FDR. The fight since then concerns how much of it.

McCain's gradualism will not ignite a counterrevolution. Obama's do-it-all-now approach will.

Or, to use Tex's inflammatory style: A vote for Obama is a vote to stand up and fight socialism. A vote for McCain is a vote in favor of socialism.

[Maggie_T]

I'm not voting for McVain on PRINCIPLE --I'm not voting for him out of pure, unadulterated HATE.

I have never, never, never, ever like the man --for more years than I can rmember, I've had a deep dislike for him.

Now, I purely hate him.

He has stuck his finger in the eye of Republicans and Conservatives at every turn for as long as I can remember. He's curried favor with the Libs for as long as I can remember.

As far as I'm concerned, it's time for the Turncoat Asshole to get a big bite on the butt from the very people whose ass he's kissed for more years than I can remember.

Supreme Court Justices?

You don't think for one minute he's going to stick to that promise, if it means the NYT and Ted Kennedy will pat him on the head, do you?

Right to Life?

He would change that position in a heartbeat if it meant a positive column in the Washington Compost. In fact, I don't believe he's committed to Right to Life. I think that's just something he spouts in order to get a few conservative votes.

McCain/Finegold?

I hope it bites him where it hurts.

Osamabamabammy will be the worst thing that ever happened to this Nation, but if keeping him out of the seat of power means I have to vote for McCain, then you all better get used to saying, "President Osamabamabammy."


That is exactly my point. I DON'T trust McCain. He has given me way too many examples of how devious he is. I can very well see him turning on his word to cave in to Ted Kennedy and his ilk, if that will earn him kudos from the press.

Sorry. McCain has cried 'wolf!' too many times for my peace of mind.

[Maggie_T]

I respect any and all opinions regarding a vote for or against McCain, as well as respect the people here at FC who hold those opinions.

That's just basic decency.

I just can't see the issue as something to get my knickers in a knot over --one way or the other.

It is what it is, and whatever happens, happens.

This old earth is going to keep right on spinning on her axis.

Bet on it.



And we're all going to die in the end. :evilgrin:

[Lazarus]

The socialist revolution was ushered in by FDR. The fight since then concerns how much of it.

McCain's gradualism will not ignite a counterrevolution. Obama's do-it-all-now approach will.

Or, to use Tex's inflammatory style: A vote for Obama is a vote to stand up and fight socialism. A vote for McCain is a vote in favor of socialism.Rush Limbaugh made just this assertion months back... And as ironic as it may seem on the surface, I see the truth in it...

Obama's agenda is a cold slap in the American face - McCain's socialism is the slow boil... The former will shock America into its senses - the latter is guaranteed death of the nation...

[Lazarus]

And we're all going to die in the end. :evilgrin:Everybody dies... I intend to do mine as a free man - preferably with a gun in my hand, just because I know it will send shudders up the spines of the Leftists... Nothing scares a Leftist like an armed Free Man... Its the stuff their nightmares are made of....:evilgrin:

[Penguin]

I'm helping Obama ONLY if I check the box by his name.

Thanks Beo. That is exactly what I meant by my previous post. OBombUs can only win by getting the most electoral votes and that means winning states which means actually getting people to vote for him. (Whether dead, illegal etc. of course matters little)

Voting for McPain, voting third party or writing in someone still does not increase OBombUs's vote tally.

[Rhino]

CORRECTION: McCain splinters conservatives and he hurts conservatism.You beat me to it.

[DesertFox]

OBombUs can only win by getting the most electoral votes and that means winning states which means actually getting people to vote for him. (Whether dead, illegal etc. of course matters little) Yeah, and that just ain't fair. I always thought live-people votes should count twice as much as dead-people votes.

Well, maybe only 1.5 times as much.

In any case, we conservatives need to study liberal methods on getting out the dead vote.

[Naturalized-Texan]

Nah, there never were 'more moderate DemonRats' in the good old days.
From that statement I am forced to conclude that you had not yet reached adulthood by the time Reagan was president. I had and I remember well that most congressional Democrats were moderate Democrats then.

[DesertFox]

Tex is right. If not most, certainly large numbers of Democrats in the Eighties had some sense.

[Naturalized-Texan]

I can only answer Beo's question my citing my own personal situation:

If I either voted for a 3rd party candidate or didn't vote, I would be taking a vote away from McCain, thereby helping to elect Obama.

To Elgalad: You are dreaming if you think that Republicans have even a snowball's chance in hell of winning majorities in either house of Congress anytime soon, certainly not before 2012.

To Lubbock: I AM voting for McCain on principle. Given our choices in November, our ONLY hope for the future of this great nation is to elect McCain as president.

[Suzie]

Tex is right. If not most, certainly large numbers of Democrats in the Eighties had some sense.

I really miss Zell Miller. :sad: I think he was the last of that dying/dead breed.

[DesertFox]

Sam Nunn's still around.

[Suzie]

Sam Nunn's still around.

My husband saw him in a bathroom in Texas once. He used the urinal next to him. Needless to say they didn't talk. And this was long before Larry Craig. :lol:

[DesertFox]

When I was PAO at USARSA, Nunn's secretary called. I didn't know her from Adam and was abrupt with her because she was a Democrat senator's minion. She whined to the commander, who told me, "Watch it, dude!" :D

[Lazarus]

Tex is right. If not most, certainly large numbers of Democrats in the Eighties had some sense.I remember one of those moderate Democrats... He was known for his unwaivering support for the Military and national defense... One of those Moderate Democrats that we used to think we could work with - that we admired...

I'm trying to remember that man's name...........:question: Oh yeah now I recall... His name was Al Gore!.....:brow:

We now know what a hot recommendation that was... We now see the power of party loyalty in their lives - Or I should say, Gang loyalty... Its the party above all else... Even above the oath to defend the Constitution that they apparently lipsynch when they take office...

There is something hideously corrupting about Washington DC... It whispers in their ears and promises power over other men, even in a nation that was founded on throwing off the chains of tyranny...

I submit that NO Democrat is immune to the siren's call of corruption and power lust, no exceptions... All those Democrats of the past that we so wistfully look back on and pine over, if they were still in the system, would have by now sold their souls to the dark side just like Al Gore did...

I don't trust a damned one of them... And my list of trustworthy Pubs is growing very short...:unsmile:


I once read an quote made by some cowboy in the days of the western gold rush... He said, "I've done a lot of bad things in my life that i fully expect to be condemned to hell for, but at least I'm not a politician.."

[BuckeyeMike]

I can only answer Beo's question my citing my own personal situation:

If I either voted for a 3rd party candidate or didn't vote, I would be taking a vote away from McCain, thereby helping to elect Obama.

If all of you that don't seem to have the nads to vote third party were to vote third party, you'd be taking votes away from McPain AND the Muslim racist dude!:noggin:

To Elgalad: You are dreaming if you think that Republicans have even a snowball's chance in hell of winning majorities in either house of Congress anytime soon, certainly not before 2012.

To Lubbock: I AM voting for McCain on principle. Given our choices in November, our ONLY hope for the future of this great nation is to elect McCain as president..

[DesertFox]

If Obama wins, Republicans will come storming back in the 2010 elections.

[Suzie]

When is that going to happen in WV? :( I would like a date for that too ... in writing please. It hasn't happened in my lifetime.

[Lazarus]

If all of you that don't seem to have the nads to vote third party were to vote third party, you'd be taking votes away from McPain AND the Muslim racist dude!:noggin:Shhhlap him again for me, Mikey!:thumb:

If Obama wins, Republicans will come storming back in the 2010 elections.I believe Fox has a high probablility with this prediction...

When is that going to happen in WV? :( I would like a date for that too ... in writing please. It hasn't happened in my lifetime. Sooz, dear, we're talkin about the NATION as a whole - There are some areas of the nation that will remain unreclaimable - The Left coast, Chicago, New York city, most of New England... And apparently the union-enslaved West Virginia... I can only advise you to move to a more Conservative region...

[Suzie]

I have "not voted" for Robert Byrd and in many gubernatorial elections most of my life. It's not changing anything. Just as this story says, you offer people the "new deal" of health care and "change" and we are right back were we were NATIONALLY when the last new deal came around and we didn't get another "real conservative" (by most of the standards here) again until Reagan with more and plenty of extra hand outs added in those years between that we are still stuck with today. So I am not real optimistic that the turn around is going to be as quick as you guys say it is.

[BuckeyeMike]

:noggin:....:noggin:......:noggin:.....:noggin:

[Longhorn_Platinum]

Lazarus:
Sooz, dear, we're talkin about the NATION as a whole - There are some areas of the nation that will remain unreclaimable - The Left coast, Chicago, New York city, most of New England... And apparently the union-enslaved West Virginia... I can only advise you to move to a more Conservative region...

:rolleyes: Of course, West Virginia makes a poor laboratory for political experimentation. I guess we'll have to try Lazarus's theories out on his area, if we are to know if they'll really work. Let us know how it goes, Laz.

[Lazarus]

:rolleyes: Of course, West Virginia makes a poor laboratory for political experimentation. I guess we'll have to try Lazarus's theories out on his area, if we are to know if they'll really work. Let us know how it goes, Laz.I'll certainly do that, Moo... Of course I COULD go ahead and give you those results today - Alabama is the rock solid core of Conservatism... We are Republican now - We will be Republican in 2010... So to be honest, my area will probably be no better as a sample than West Virginia is...

Maybe we should watch the nation as a whole - or even Fox's locale since he was the one who made that declaration - repeatedly... I just concur with his opinion... Of course if you WANT to credit me with the prediction, feel free to do so if that's easier than confronting Fox... Whichever is easiest for you...:brow:

Soozy I do sincerely commiserate with you... I know it must be tough living in a state where the Dems are so entrenched in power and the people can't see past their lies... I grew up in Alabama when George Wallace ruled like a Dictator and although there always was a contengent of Conservative Republicans here who tried to talk sense into their neighbors, people seem to draw some kind of security from these political con artists...

So I know what you live with - All I can tell you is that sometimes, it does change... Sometimes there comes a generation that breaks out of the slavery of the political bosses... I can't guarantee that it will happen in WV in your lifetime, but the possibility is always there...

[Suzie]

It's in my prayers every night. If we were a place like New York or LA I might understand that's why we keep these crooks in office. But we aren't, and most of the people are very faith based, and it's not the unions anymore. You can't join a union if you don't have a job. The biggest impact they have here now is with the grocery stores. Kroger is Union. The Walmarts built here usually go in then they add the grocery section later to get around the building protests.

I don't understand it, but it's here to stay and I can see it happening nationwide if people start losing jobs when the businesses are taxed so much they leave. Then people get on the programs and that's all it takes. They are in solid and they don't go away. I realize you think that can't happen nationwide. I believe it can, and when people are more concerned about losing a paycheck from the government than anything else, I swear to you, it doesn't go away.

[Naturalized-Texan]

If all of you that don't seem to have the nads to vote third party were to vote third party, you'd be taking votes away from McPain AND the Muslim racist dude!
You're joking of course. :hahaha::hahaha::hahaha::hahaha::hahaha:

B. Hussein Obama will get his votes whether you or I vote or don't vote; whether you or I vote 3rd party or not. Consequently, if you or I don't vote or if you or I vote 3rd party, we help Obama by taking votes away from McCain. If enough of us take votes away from McCain, Obama wins. It's nothing more than simple logic.

You can do what you want, but I refuse to help Obama win by withholding my vote from McCain.

Vote for John McCain!

[Lazarus]

What freed Alabama from the Dems was Reagan... We were always conservative, but the Dems had the age old stranglehold leftover from the Civil War... Dixiecrats they used to call them...

Reagan stepped up and fearlessly said I have a better way - Follow me...

If we get another Reagan in our lifetimes, you may see your people break their chains too... I really hope so, too... I lived and worked for 8 months in Appalacian Kentucky which is really the same stock of people as in WV... They are good people - They have the power to free themselves if they will but try...

[BuckeyeMike]

You're joking of course. :hahaha::hahaha::hahaha::hahaha::hahaha:

B. Hussein Obama will get his votes whether you or I vote or don't vote; whether you or I vote 3rd party or not. Consequently, if you or I don't vote or if you or I vote 3rd party, we help Obama by taking votes away from McCain. If enough of us take votes away from McCain, Obama wins. It's nothing more than simple logic.

You can do what you want, but I refuse to help Obama win by withholding my vote from McCain.

Vote for John McCain!

Hello wall!!! Gotta say one thing in your favor though Tex....your avatar is apropos!

[Lazarus]

...Consequently, if you or I don't vote or if you or I vote 3rd party, we help Obama by taking votes away from McCain. If enough of us take votes away from McCain, Obama wins. It's nothing more than simple logic.If a majority of voters vote third party, neither the Dems or the Pubs will win the Whitehouse... I'm not suggesting a third party because I see none that I can support, but logically, the Dems and Pubs don't have a monopoly on the election... Theoretically a third party CAN win...

However if you are saying just you and me and the rest of the membership of this community, you're statement is in fact correct... We agree on that point - mark the day for annual celebration...

What either you don't seem to get, or you keep skirting, is the fact that those of us who oppose McCain consider him to be as bad as Obama, and as such we have no reason to vote for him simply because he wears the tag of Republican...

Wearing a Republican suit is not a reason for us to vote for McCain - he needs SOME degree of Conservative credentials... I'm more than willing to compromise to a degree with a candidate with SOME Conservative credentials... I demonstrated this by voting for Romney after Fred abandoned us so abruptly... But McCain has nothing but lies and betrayals to recommend himself... And so we reject him as much as we reject Obama... They are two sides of the same coin...

[Etaoin]

-Elgalad
(I don't know where you were going with the 28 years of indoctrination..)

My apologies...'Twas late and I plead fatigue, I was alluding to the 28 years since The end of Carter's term and the takeover of the school system via the Federal Dept. of "Education." I seldom encounter younger younger generations woh have been taught such things as history, logic and the fact this nation WAS FORMED AS A REPUBLIC and why it was not founded as a democracy!

Wait.. We still have a First Amendment?!?! (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/21/AR2007112101859.html) :ooo: Only so long as the 2nd amendment assures its meaningfulness! Scotus done good !!! But the 5 to 4 is not so reassuring on something that was so clearly stated by the founders!

The alluding to the French Revolution was because the left's core groups remind me of their murderous behavior and similar rhetoric.

There are no do-overs. Only next elections. Sometimes there are no further elections

[Naturalized-Texan]

What either you don't seem to get, or you keep skirting, is the fact that those of us who oppose McCain consider him to be as bad as Obama, and as such we have no reason to vote for him simply because he wears the tag of Republican...

Wearing a Republican suit is not a reason for us to vote for McCain - he needs SOME degree of Conservative credentials... I'm more than willing to compromise to a degree with a candidate with SOME Conservative credentials... I demonstrated this by voting for Romney after Fred abandoned us so abruptly... But McCain has nothing but lies and betrayals to recommend himself... And so we reject him as much as we reject Obama... They are two sides of the same coin...
That is complete nonsense and is far from being supported by the facts, as many of us have proven.

[Elgalad]

From that statement I am forced to conclude that you had not yet reached adulthood by the time Reagan was president. I had and I remember well that most congressional Democrats were moderate Democrats then.

That's correct, I didn't get to vote for him until 1984. But just as TR and other younger members on this board are active in politics now, I also cut my teeth during the 1970's and early 1980's. I remember that bumbling idjit from Jaw-Jah and his slightly smarter brother who started his own beer company. I remember Tip O'Neill and his corrupt machine. I Do also remember Patrick Moynihan as well though, and I will concede to you that HE at least was a decent man. For a dem. :question:

The entire country has shifted quite a bit to the Left since then though, and while it's tempting to look back on the 1980's as a period of peaceful accomplishment in Washington, when Ronaldus Magnus was able to get reasonable dems to work With him to further his agenda, I'll contend that it really did go both ways. Not every deal was beneficial in the long run (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Reform_and_Control_Act_of_1986)..

The point I was really trying to make though Tex, was that always being willing to cut deals isn't necessarily a good thing. It's one thing to strut proudly when our guy pulls one over on the 'rats and gets a meaningful bill passed. It's quite another when we fail to hold him accountable for doing our opponents' work for them. And that's precisely what I see happening today in this debate.

When it comes to John McCain, I don't think anyone really questions His ability or desire to work With the Left. But, based on the deals he's made with them already, is that really a Good thing,? You tell me. :unsmile:


-Elgalad

[Timberwolf]

The socialist revolution was ushered in by FDR. The fight since then concerns how much of it.

McCain's gradualism will not ignite a counterrevolution. Obama's do-it-all-now approach will.

Or, to use Tex's inflammatory style: A vote for Obama is a vote to stand up and fight socialism. A vote for McCain is a vote in favor of socialism.
Ouch. :grin: Someone's great-grandkids are gonna feel that one.

[EveningStar]

(shrug) As I said, better know it sooner than later. As Kathy30 said, Jimmy Carter gave us Ronald Reagan. Maybe HUSSEIN will have the same results.

Hey, I'm being optimistic, for once. http://freeconservatives.com/smilies/smilies2/icon88.gif
We will get a liberal SCOTUS and it will take us AT LEAST 20 years to replace them. And we will never be able to undo their damage. Never.

[Suzie]

When it comes to John McCain, I don't think anyone really questions His ability or desire to work With the Left. But, based on the deals he's made with them already, is that really a Good thing,? You tell me. :unsmile:


-Elgalad

It's not, but you are hitting on our division. All your focus is on McCain.

My focus is...
When it comes to Barack Obama, I don't think anyone really questions His ability or desire to work With Muslim terrorist nations who will use it against us. And his ability to kill the unborn unrestricted. Tie our military hands, and make deals with terrorists. And destroy our healthcare system.

It's all which side you find more unbearable. Working with liberals .... or working with terrorists. I just don't happen to see that as equal. My husband has seen what the enemy in this war is, and Nancy Pelosi on her worst day doesn't even come close. :( We have overcome stupid liberal mistakes with far greater ease then evil terrorist acts, and the terrorists take things far more valuable because you can never get them back, Obama will help them take more. IMO

[Timberwolf]

We will get a liberal SCOTUS and it will take us AT LEAST 20 years to replace them. And we will never be able to undo their damage. Never.
Got news for ya...McCain doesn't guarantee us a thing:
SC appointees:
O’Connor, Sandra Day - Reagan
Kennedy, Anthony M. - Reagan
Souter, David H. - Bush41
Blackmun, Harry A - Nixon
I doubt any nominees by Juan McBama would be any better...

[EveningStar]

Got news for ya...McCain doesn't guarantee us a thing:
SC appointees:
O’Connor, Sandra Day - Reagan
Kennedy, Anthony M. - Reagan
Souter, David H. - Bush41
Blackmun, Harry A - Nixon
I doubt any nominees by Juan McBama would be any better...
No. There is no guarantee.

I'm well aware of those appointments.

We've also gotten Rehnquist, Scalia, Thomas, Alito, and Roberts.

[Timberwolf]

Yeah, but look what Kennedy did in the child rape case from Louisiana. Not buyin' it that Juan McBama will be any better than his counterpart Hussy O'Cain.

[Elgalad]

Eveningstar, google Warren Rudman and David Souter. Then google Warren Rudman and John McCain.

Then perhaps you'd be so kind as to tell me with a straight face that you expect this man to nominate another Scalia, Thomas, or Alito.

(shrug)

Might wanna google "Gang of 14" too, while you're at it. Just sayin'.


-Elgalad

[Elgalad]

It's not, but you are hitting on our division. All your focus is on McCain.

Because we're already in agreement that Obama isn't worth voting for (either ~ my qualification).

My focus is...
When it comes to Barack Obama, I don't think anyone really questions His ability or desire to work With Muslim terrorist nations who will use it against us. And his ability to kill the unborn unrestricted. Tie our military hands, and make deals with terrorists. And destroy our healthcare system.

Again, we're already in agreement. Though I'm really not sure how he can kill any more babies than are being butchered right now under legally sanctioned infanticide/Roe vs Wade.

It's all which side you find more unbearable. Working with liberals .... or working with terrorists. I just don't happen to see that as equal. My husband has seen what the enemy in this war is, and Nancy Pelosi on her worst day doesn't even come close. :( We have overcome stupid liberal mistakes with far greater ease then evil terrorist acts, and the terrorists take things far more valuable because you can never get them back, Obama will help them take more. IMO

I refuse to work with either, frankly. And to be honest, I see them both as Equal threats to the long term prosperity, security, and sovereignty of the United States of America, their only difference being their methods and tactics. Terrorists are simply less subtle than liberals when they attack us.

Now with all due respect, particularly to your husband and his service, I feel obligated to point out that I am Also a military veteran who is most certainly Not naive to the fact that there are deadly enemies who have both the intention And means to do serious harm to this country and its citizens. I bring that up because you often raise it as a point of support for your arguments. That's perfectly fine as long as you understand that neither you nor your husband hold a monopoly on that particular moral high ground. I respect that you feel strongly that the threat would be greatly reduced by electing John McCain to the White House. I just disagree with you.

I want you to understand that I feel just as strongly that the Oath I took compels Me to work to defeat the candidacy of a man who has directly and indirectly attacked the document (http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html) that represents the foundation of our society. That very document is what I swore to protect, and I fully intend to keep my word.


-Elgalad

[Beowulf]

I can only answer Beo's question my citing my own personal situation:

If I either voted for a 3rd party candidate or didn't vote, I would be taking a vote away from McCain, thereby helping to elect Obama.



Since you can't see it any other way, I would also be taking one away from Osama. Still, I will contend that the only way I help Osama is to check the box by his name.

[Longhorn_Platinum]

:unsmile: The demonic rats do come with guarantees:

Breyingjackass, Steven: Clinton
Ginsburg, Ruthless Darthbader: Clinton

[Lazarus]

That is complete nonsense and is far from being supported by the facts, as many of us have proven.Ya know Tex I'm beginning to get used to the childish way you debate... If you can't win the arguement you simply declare your opponent's arguement to be "nonsense", and your argument to be proven fact...

Boom! Discussion over...

:rotflmbo:

[Suzie]

Again ... we are back to the fact that one of these 2 will be president and that's where our division lies. Some of us see Obama as not just a threat here on things we can vote against again in a next election, but he can aid things in other countries to our detriment where we won't be able to control things once he builds them up with out a huge loss. He's already saying he will do things to work with those places and I take it very seriously.

There are no guarantees with either candidate, but if you DO know what's going on in the Muslim countries, having a man with a Muslim history as president is not a good thing. I am saying my view is formed by what my husband knows. I have no idea what the rest of you know in regards to that.

[Lazarus]

...Though I'm really not sure how he can kill any more babies than are being butchered right now under legally sanctioned infanticide/Roe vs Wade.A VERY good point, Bro, and I'm glad you brought that up... The entire issue of abortion in a PRESIDENTIAL election is a red herring because, as you so rightly point out, Obama can no more INCREASE the number of abortions anymore than McCain can DECREASE the number of abortions...

This issue can only be addressed by Congress... Congress has the power to write a Constitutional amanedment to outlaw abortion... The SCOTUS cannot step around a Constitutional Amendment... If Abortion is your hot button issue, you should be focusing your efforts on the Congressional Elections, not the Presidency...

The President is the Chief Executive, and with reference to domestic laws, he is obligated to enforce those laws (although we have been reminded quite recently that any given President will selectively enforce only the laws that support his personal tastes and agenda)... This entire abortion question with refer to the Presidency is completely IRRELEVANT...

The President is not a Dictator or a King... He cannot simply declare laws into existance or eradicate them by the power of his decree...

So in the end, this is one of those highly emotional issues that Presidnetial candidates like to wave flags about and take stands and make grandiose declarations, that signify nothing...! Because such an issue is NOT within his power to change in either direction...

Of course knowing all that doesn't stop some people from being guided by their emotions instead of their mentality - And both candidates are betting on that reaction...

[Longhorn_Platinum]

Suzie:
There are no guarantees with either candidate, but if you DO know what's going on in the Muslim countries, having a man with a Muslim history as president is not a good thing. I am saying my view is formed by what my husband knows. I have no idea what the rest of you know in regards to that.

:unsmile: My wife is from Indonesia. She is literally terrified of...

:fart2: ...Baaarrraaaccckkk!!!,...

:unsmile: ...Who's Insane, O[s]ama becoming president, to the point that on a couple of mornings last week, she woke up from having had nightmares about it. It was the first thing she talked about when she woke up.

[Longhorn_Platinum]

Lazarus:
A VERY good point, Bro, and I'm glad you brought that up... The entire issue of abortion in a PRESIDENTIAL election is a red herring because, as you so rightly point out, Obama can no more INCREASE the number of abortions anymore than McCain can DECREASE the number of abortions...

:unsmile: No, but they can INCREASE or DECREASE (why are we shouting) the number of Supreme Court justices who might vote to overturn Roe vs. Wade.

This issue can only be addressed by Congress... Congress has the power to write a Constitutional amanedment to outlaw abortion... The SCOTUS cannot step around a Constitutional Amendment...

:rolleyes: In case you haven't been keeping up with current events, we were just one Supreme Court justice away from losing the 2nd Amendment a couple of days ago.

If Abortion is your hot button issue, you should be focusing your efforts on the Congressional Elections, not the Presidency...

:unsmile: Except that I can only vote on 1% of the Senate, & ~.2% of the House. I can vote on 100% of the presidency. I think I'll stick with the big numbers.

The President is the Chief Executive, and with reference to domestic laws, he is obligated to enforce those laws (although we have been reminded quite recently that any given President will selectively enforce only the laws that support his personal tastes and agenda)... This entire abortion question with refer to the Presidency is completely IRRELEVANT...

:unsmile: I seem to recall talk of a "gag order" that precluded the Planned Parenthood wackos from receiving federal funding or counseling women about their side of the abortion issue while Reagan/Bush were in office, something that Blow-Job Billy lifted on his first day in the Oval Office. So much for this claptrap that the president's views on abortion are irrelevant.

The President is not a Dictator or a King... He cannot simply declare laws into existance or eradicate them by the power of his decree...

So in the end, this is one of those highly emotional issues that Presidnetial candidates like to wave flags about and take stands and make grandiose declarations, that signify nothing...! Because such an issue is NOT within his power to change in either direction...

Of course knowing all that doesn't stop some people from being guided by their emotions instead of their mentality - And both candidates are betting on that reaction...

:unsmile: Or that's what the folks who would sit idly by while a pro-abortion wacko wins the White House would have us all believe.

[Suzie]

I have no voice on the State level. The Presidential election is my only option for voting to effect the things important to me, and I didn't even get to vote in the primary a handfull of people voted for me.

[Lazarus]

:unsmile: No, but they can INCREASE or DECREASE (why are we shouting) the number of Supreme Court justices who might vote to overturn Roe vs. Wade.If one or more of the current justices becomes defunct...

:rolleyes: In case you haven't been keeping up with current events, we were just one Supreme Court justice away from losing the 2nd Amendment a couple of days ago.Well if we can cut thru your incessant emoting, I would ask if you are suggesting that the President simply reach down with his mighty hand and pluck up two or three of the bad apples and replace them?

:unsmile: Except that I can only vote on 1% of the Senate, & ~.2% of the House. I can vote on 100% of the presidency. I think I'll stick with the big numbers.Ya know Moo you may as well be saying that you'll put your faith in the Teletubbies for all the good that will do - The FACTS still remain that the issue of Abortion remains in the hands of Congress, Not the President... You keep talking like the President is one of two viable options that we can use to create or eliminate laws... The President simply cannot create laws... All your wishful thinking won't change the Constitution...

:unsmile: I seem to recall talk of a "gag order" that precluded the Planned Parenthood wackos from receiving federal funding or counseling women about their side of the abortion issue while Reagan/Bush were in office, something that Blow-Job Billy lifted on his first day in the Oval Office. So much for this claptrap that the president's views on abortion are irrelevant.Moo, be realistic... If you were a woman seeking an abortion, is the situation you just described above going to be an ironclad obstacle to you're success in obtaining an abortion?

Man, you're thinking like a liberal now - All power to conduct business in the world comes from the power of the US Government coffers? Federal funding is the end all source of everything? The above-mentioned situation is a huge red herring played on both sides of the fence... Federal Funding - The world revolves around federal funding....

That's just the kind of ineffectual feel-good measure that I would expect from a politician pandering to a key constituency... And yet it makes sooooo many people feel so warm and cozy - Didn't stop a single abortion, but people feel good about it...

Who's spouting clap-trap now?:brow:

[Suzie]

[/b][/color]All power to conduct business in the world comes from the power of the US Government coffers? Federal funding is the end all source of everything?

I agree with you on that isn't what we want, but a government "gag order" is no better, Correct? A lot of these girls are very young scared and haven't talked to ANYONE out of fear. The government forbidding anyone to talk to them about what they are doing and explaining the real facts of the matter isn't right either.

[Naturalized-Texan]

We will get a liberal SCOTUS and it will take us AT LEAST 20 years to replace them. And we will never be able to undo their damage. Never.
Absolutely!

[Naturalized-Texan]

Since you can't see it any other way, I would also be taking one away from Osama. Still, I will contend that the only way I help Osama is to check the box by his name.
The fallacy in your statement is that Obama will get his votes no matter how you or I vote. However, if you or I don't vote or vote 3rd party, we take votes away from McCain and that will help Obama get elected.

[Naturalized-Texan]

Ya know Tex I'm beginning to get used to the childish way you debate... If you can't win the arguement you simply declare your opponent's arguement to be "nonsense", and your argument to be proven fact....
No one could possibly equate Obama and McCain and you certainly have to know that, so it's obvious that you are just making those absurd claims just to be provocative.

[Longhorn_Platinum]

Lazarus:
If one or more of the current justices becomes defunct...

:hahaha:

Well if we can cut thru your incessant emoting, I would ask if you are suggesting that the President simply reach down with his mighty hand and pluck up two or three of the bad apples and replace them?

:unsmile: You've been in your tomb too long, if you haven't noticed that there are a few justices that are past retirement age, but are no doubt waiting for W's term to end, in hopes that the new president "can reach down with his mighty hand ... and replace them".

Ya know Moo you may as well be saying that you'll put your faith in the Teletubbies for all the good that will do - The FACTS still remain that the issue of Abortion remains in the hands of Congress, Not the President... You keep talking like the President is one of two viable options that we can use to create or eliminate laws... The President simply cannot create laws... All your wishful thinking won't change the Constitution...

:unsmile: You obviously think that Roe vs. Wade was enacted by the Senate.

Moo, be realistic... If you were a woman seeking an abortion, is the situation you just described above going to be an ironclad obstacle to you're success in obtaining an abortion?

:unsmile: What if I were a woman seeking different options, & my Planned Parenthood salesperson thought that her employer could make more money off of an abortion? Do you think it might make a difference?


Man, you're thinking like a liberal now - All power to conduct business in the world comes from the power of the US Government coffers? Federal funding is the end all source of everything? The above-mentioned situation is a huge red herring played on both sides of the fence... Federal Funding - The world revolves around federal funding....

That's just the kind of ineffectual feel-good measure that I would expect from a politician pandering to a key constituency... And yet it makes sooooo many people feel so warm and cozy - Didn't stop a single abortion, but people feel good about it...

:unsmile: How do you know? You bellyache about red herrings, & here you are making a broad, sweeping generalization with no support.


Who's spouting clap-trap now?:brow:

:unsmile: You.

[Longhorn_Platinum]

Lazarus:
...your incessant emoting,...

:unsmile:

:rolleyes:

[Lazarus]

No one could possibly equate Obama and McCain and you certainly have to know that, so it's obvious that you are just making those absurd claims just to be provocative.
No I'm just pointing out how absurd is your unwaivering support for any Republican no matter how far to the Left he travels...

How many times has McCain betrayed CONSERVATIVE efforts in the Senate? Remember when he usurped authority from the Majority Leader, Bill Frist, when Frist was about to apply the nuclear option to break the Democrats' hold on SCOTUS nominees? Remember the GANG OF 14 - John McCain's little brain child... Did you curse his name when he did that coup?

How many times have you suggested that McCain should just switch to the Democrat party and be done with it? Or have all those occasions just slipped your mind at the moment...

Did you cringe when he got in bed with Uncle Teddy to betray the sovereignty of this nation and the trust of the people by trying to pass Amnesty for 20 million illegal invaders in the dark of night so you and I would wake in the morning to find that our borders had effectively been erased with no floor debate? Does any of this even give you the slightest moment of pause about this snake?

And now you're ready to defend his name at any cost...

Is there anything McCain could do that would cause you to turn your back on him?

[BuckeyeMike]

Go gettem Nastylazzer!!!!