Georgia says Russian aircraft bombed its air bases

[DeclinetoState]

Aug 8 03:21 PM US/Eastern
By MUSA SADULAYEV
Associated Press Writer

DZHAVA, Georgia (AP) - Russia sent columns of tanks and reportedly bombed Georgian air bases Friday after Georgia launched a major military offensive to retake the breakaway province of South Ossetia, threatening to ignite a broader conflict.<br>
Hundreds of civilians were reported dead in the worst outbreak of hostilities since the province won defacto independence in a war against Georgia that ended in 1992. Witnesses said the South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali was devastated.
More (http://comments.breitbart.com/d92e9quo0/)<br>Tell Jimmy Carter that this is home state of Georgia and ask him to mediate or do something there. Maybe he'll want to stay.

[norman]

US-NATO Interests in Georgia

http://media.npr.org/programs/morning/features/2006/apr/caspian_pipeline/pipeline_map650.jpg
The Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan oil pipeline (BTC), which is still ablaze, will remain shut for about 15 days after an explosion sparked a fire in a section in eastern Turkey, news agencies reported on Thursday [August 8]. The supply concerns pushed oil prices back to over $119.

The blast occurred late Tuesday [August 5] in a pump at a section near the eastern town of Refahiye, in Erzincan province.

HotNewsTurkey.com (http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/finance/9604410.asp?scr=1)

http://www.wtrg.com/daily/small/clfclose.gif

Kurdish rebels on Friday threatened more attacks on economic targets in Turkey, days after claiming responsibility for a fire on a key oil pipeline, a pro-Kurdish news agency reported. The autonomy-seeking Kurdistan Workers' Party, known as PKK, said it sabotaged the Turkish section of the critical Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline on Aug. 5.

PR-inside.com (http://www.pr-inside.com/kurdish-rebel-group-pkk-threatens-more-r745613.htm)

[DeclinetoState]

Another reason for domestic drilling.

[norman]

It is also good reason for NATO to stay out of the Georgia-Ossentia-Abkhazia-Russia conflict. NATO would be well advised to deny Georgia membership until Ossentia and Abkhazia are pacified. (Armenia is a better NATO candidate than Georgia or Ukraine. The Baku-Ceyhan pipeline would have been better routed through Armenia.). Let a force from the UN handle peacekeeping (i.e., the "blue helmets") in Georgia rather than Russia. Ultimately, blame resides with separatists not Georgia.

The Russian Ambassador to the UN Vitaly Churkin says the lack of a swift response to the violence led to its escalation.

"I am compelled to state that Georgia continues its treacherous attack on South Ossetia. This is happening despite the appeal of the Russian leadership for an immediate ceasefire and an end to this fratricidal conflict and resumption of the negotiating process.

This scenario has become possible as a result of the connivance by a number of Security Council members who blocked last night’s assessment of the tragedy on the basis of the documents submitted last night by Russia.

The aggression was perpetrated in violation of the fundamental principles of the United Charter on non use of force".

And speaking at the UN security council, the Georgian Ambassador Irakli Alasania accused Russia of supporting a regime which encouraged ethnic cleansing:

"It was apalling to hear from the Russian Federation representative talking about the ethnic cleansing supposedly perpetrated by the Georgian armed forces. I want to remind the Council and Ambassador Churkin that it is the Russian Federation who really was supporting and is supporting militarily the regime in Tskhinvali and Sukhumi who are the perpetrators of the ethnic cleansing which is confirmed by the numerous OSCE declarations and UN documents".

RussiaToday (http://www.russiatoday.com/news/news/28688)

Joint statement on Georgia-Russia War by Presidents of Poland, Estonia, Latvia & Lithuania

We, the leaders of the former captive nations from Eastern Europe and current members of the European Union and NATO – Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland – are extremely concerned about the actions of the Russian Federation against Georgia.

We strongly condemn the actions by the Russian military forces against the sovereign and independent country of Georgia....

GeorgianDaily (http://georgiandaily.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=5572&Itemid=65)

[DesertFox]

The Baku-Ceyhan pipeline would have been better routed through Armenia Doubtful. The people in that region have been at each others' throats since Moses was a corporal. Not just interethnic strife, either; but loonies within an ethnicity, as the Izzies in Iraq. Wherever the pipeline went in, there would have been disruptions and problems.

Let a force from the UN handle peacekeeping (i.e., the "blue helmets") So they can rape little Georgian girls? The UN idea of peacekeeping seems to be to make things even worse than they already were so that everybody there will go somewhere else. The ensuing "peace" will be the peace of the graveyard -- nobody alive to cause trouble. Somehow that's not what most of us have in mind.

[PaulRevere]

Meanwhile, George Bush continues to pose with US athletes in Beijing and hobnob with commust tyrants there.

Georgia and the Georgian people are our friends, and the leader of the free world pretends that he is living in a vacuum while Putin the Terrible rains bombs down on them.

Nice friend you turned out to be, George.

[norman]

I am glad this subject is getting some attention on this forum. I am concerned, along with many others, about Russia's intentions regarding Georgia. However, I do not view Russia as an enemy of the US or the EU. My view is based upon reading the Constitution of the Russian Federation (http://www.constitution.ru/en/10003000-01.htm). Liberty won the Cold War. (How could it not since it is humans' natural state?) My understanding of the facts is:

1. There was a cease-fire agreement between Georgia and South Ossetia.
2. There were Russian peacekeepers in South Ossetia.
3. Georgia attacked South Ossetia and Russian peacekeepers.
4. Russia attacked Georgia to effect peace.

I speculate and suspect that Georgia attacked South Ossetia to provoke Russia into a fight and to drag the west into the conflict. Others worry Russia will annex South Ossetia and Abkhazia. We'll see if the territorial integrity of Georgia will be respected.

I believe the Cold War ended, that Russia is not an enemy of the United States, that there's a lot of areas where we can work together -- for example, in Iran or areas of proliferation. There's a lot of constructive work we can do.

The President (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/06/20070607-2.html)

This situation can be resolved peacefully. We've been in contact with leaders in both Georgia and Russia at all levels of government. Georgia is a sovereign nation and its territorial integrity must be respected. We have urged an immediate halt to the violence and a stand-down by all troops. We call for an end to the Russian bombings, and a return by the parties to the status quo of August the 6th.

The President (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2008/08/20080809-2.html)

"In that conversation, [Russian] Foreign Minister Lavrov told U.S. Secretary of State Rice that a democratically elected president of Georgia - and I quote - 'must go.' I quote again: '[President] Saakashvili must go.' This is completely unacceptable and crosses the line," he [U.S. Zalmay Khalilzad] said. "I want to ask [Russian] Ambassador Churkin, is your government's objective regime change in Georgia? The overthrow of the democratically elected government of Georgia?"

Ambassador Churkin's response was swift.

"Your interesting reference to the diplomatic telephone call - this confidential call between our minister and your secretary of state," said Vitaly Churkin. "I would like to say straight away, that regime change is an American expression. We do not use such an expression. I'm encouraged by the fact that you have referred to this publicly - I suggest that this means this is an interesting idea and that you are ready to bring this forward to the public platform."

Ambassador Khalilzad was not satisfied.

Voice of America (http://www.voanews.com/english/2008-08-10-voa31.cfm)

[NowhereMan]

Frankly I think presuming that Liberty won in Russia is rushing to conclusions, primarily because of Putin. It's not just that he's a former colonel of the KGB, his position as the strong man of Russian politics (the first since before the Soviet Union fell) and his obvious efforts to ensure he remains in that position. The fact that Medvedev is being practically ignored in the Western media in reporting on this beyond things he's said in response to it is just one clear sign of the fact that he's not really the driving force in Russian government despite being President.

As to who's to blame, what to do... I'm really somewhat conflicted. Technically Georgia precipitated this whole issue, they aggressively moved into South Ossetia that's been pretty much autonomous for a while and where about 2/3 of the people speak Russian, are ethnically Russian and want to be part of Russia. The Georgians had effectively begun doing what Russia's been doing in Chechnya for the last few years, including the killing of civilians and generally reckless military actions.

At the same time Russia's been goading Georgia into taking this kind of action for years now and are quite happy to say that the province should be part of Russia. There's been years of brinksmanship going on here in addition to unfriendly diplomatic tit for tat. The Russian repsonse has also been very heavy-handed, they're clearly not just trying to protect the people of, and their troops in, South Ossetia but really letting Georgia know who's opinion they should be concerned about when deciding what to do (and it's not NATO or the EU) if not annex it outright or by proxy.

[gnome]

I couldn't help but play out a teenage/parent conversation...

"But Georgia is our friend!"
"If your friends all jumped off a cliff, does that mean you have to?"

This didn't really help me decide what's the best policy here, but it gave me a chuckle out of a grim situation. Laughs are going to be few and far between in this unfortunately :(

Ultimately I think we owe this ally some support, but we must be careful. I'd like to see if as a nation we're capable of a response both strong and cautious.

[DesertFox]

Nope. Liberal Democrats have seen to that. Any show of strength will elicit angry howls from the Left. The press will erupt (again) against America. The world will rise in unison to protest. And Bush, now in his last months, would back off.

Nor is there such a thing as "strong and cautious." You're one or the other. If America had real leadership, we would go in force into Georgia and Ossetia, and dare the Russians to do something about it.

[Apollo5600]

However, I do not view Russia as an enemy of the US or the EU.

No, ofcourse not, they only support all our enemies financially/militarily/politically, plot long term strategies for our demise, "elect" KGB members to high positions, and accuse us of war mongering.

My view is based upon reading the Constitution of the Russian Federation (http://www.constitution.ru/en/10003000-01.htm).

I base mine on world events, particularly on Russian/China military buildup and support of radical nations around the globe. The testimony of KGB defectors. The testimony of victims of Russian/Communist violence.

Liberty won the Cold War. (How could it not since it is humans' natural state?)

So then it took the vast majority of human history in order for there to be some level of "natural liberty" in organized civilizations. Through out time, we have lived under Kings, Tyrants, warlords, thieves and killers, and even now our nation is degenerating into a Socialist pool of filth. And as for the Soviets suddenly becoming good Capitalists, go read Anatoliy Golitsyn's New Lies for Old and Perestroika Deception, you can find E-books online, try checking google books.

1. There was a cease-fire agreement between Georgia and South Ossetia.
2. There were Russian peacekeepers in South Ossetia.
3. Georgia attacked South Ossetia and Russian peacekeepers.
4. Russia attacked Georgia to effect peace.

Georgia is the long time victim and target of Russian aggression ever since the KGB lost control of that little nation. The "South Ossetians" are puppets in a Russian game to destabilize a "rebel" nation and to, inevitably in the long term, absorb that entire territory. However, things are going alot faster than expected. I think we might just pull a Hudini on this one and actually support the Georgians... However, most likely we will fail the Georgians, their country will be forced to surrender and to accept a new "pro"-Russian government (IOW, KGB-agents, "false opposition" groups to take power), and all of this will serve as a warning to all other "rebel territories" to fear the Russian Bear.

I speculate and suspect that Georgia attacked South Ossetia to provoke Russia into a fight and to drag the west into the conflict.[

I speculate that your opinions on things are only surface level, and do not go deeper into the situation and characters of our enemies.

[norman]

I speculate that your opinions on things are only surface level, and do not go deeper into the situation and characters of our enemies.
Your point is well taken. I don't have a need to know so I don't know. I speculate and suspect. Based on what do I do that?

As a Russian jet bombed fields around his village, Djimali Avago, a Georgian farmer, asked me: “Why won’t America and Nato help us? If they won’t help us now, why did we help them in Iraq?”

A similar sense of betrayal coursed through the conversations of many Georgians here yesterday as their troops retreated under shellfire and the Russian Army pressed forward to take full control of South Ossetia.

TimesOnline (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4500362.ece)

Свобода, капитализм и демократия преобладали в России.

[DesertFox]

Свобода, капитализм и демократия преобладали в России. Say what?

[norman]

Say what?
Liberty, capitalism and democracy prevailed in Russia.

Thanks for asking.

[DeclinetoState]

I still think we should send Jimmy Cahtuh there. After all, he is from Georgia.

:D

[gnome]

Nope. Liberal Democrats have seen to that. Any show of strength will elicit angry howls from the Left. The press will erupt (again) against America. The world will rise in unison to protest. And Bush, now in his last months, would back off.

Nor is there such a thing as "strong and cautious." You're one or the other. If America had real leadership, we would go in force into Georgia and Ossetia, and dare the Russians to do something about it.

I won't speculate on what the left will or won't do... but I think that there have been many occasions of "strong and cautious". To be cautious means to exercise care. It's simply the opposite of reckless. I don't see how that is only possible in the absence of strength.

[norman]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a1/Baku_pipelines.svg/550px-Baku_pipelines.svg.png

"Today we put the fire out, and immediately after that we started trying to cool down the pipeline. As soon as the cooling process ends, we will begin assessing the damage and start repairs," the BP source, who declined to be named, said.

The pipeline normally carries Azeri oil which is high quality and commands a premium. The $4 billion BTC pipeline can pump up to a million barrels per day, the equivalent of more than 1 percent of world supply, from fields in the Azeri sector of the Caspian Sea to Ceyhan on the Turkish Mediterranean coast.

Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/feedarticle/7716124)

Some 20,000 tons of oil has burnt during the fire on the Turkish section of the BTC pipeline, SOCAR president Rovnaq Abdullayev said according to ANS.

Moreover, he said due to the failure at the BTC pipeline, 11,000-12,000 tons of oil per day is exported by Baku-Novorossiysk pipeline and 20,000 tons to Georgia by railroad, though earlier BTC transported nearly 800,000 barrels per day, Today. AZ website reported.

The pipeline normally carries Azeri oil which is high quality and worth more than many other crudes. The $4 billion BTC pipeline pumps the equivalent of more than 1 percent of world supply from fields in the Azeri sector of the Caspian Sea to Ceyhan on the Turkish Mediterranean coast.

HotTurkeyNews (http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/finance/9630343.asp?gid=236&sz=88197)

Azerbaijan's has 1.2 billion barrels of proven oil reserves, as well as enormous possible reserves in undeveloped offshore Caspian fields. However, production declined following Azerbaijan's independence in 1991, falling to an estimated 180,000 bbl/d in 1997, but has known dramatic recovery reaching almost 800.000 bbl/d in 2007....

Currently, Azerbaijan's export routes are: the Baku-Novorossiisk pipeline ("northern route"), which sends Azeri oil to the Russian Black Sea, the Baku-Supsa pipeline ("western route"), which mainly carries AIOC's "early oil" from ACG to Georgia's Black Sea coast (Batumi) and the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline ("BTC"), main outlet for the Azeri-Chirag-Gunashli (ACG) field in the Caspian. Oil products such as lubricants also are exported by rail in tank wagons to Georgia's Black Sea ports.

Azeri oil (http://www.azerb.com/az-oil.html)

The Georgian government has accepted the elements of a peace agreement that the Russian government previously said it would be willing to accept: an immediate cease-fire, the withdrawal of forces from the zone of conflict, a return to the military status quo as of August 6th, and a commitment to refrain from using force. There are representatives of the European Union and the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe currently in Moscow seeking Russia's agreement to this peace plan.

Russia's government must respect Georgia's territorial integrity and sovereignty. The Russian government must reverse the course it appears to be on, and accept this peace agreement as a first step toward resolving this conflict.

The President (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2008/08/20080811-1.html)

Гла́сность

Russian President Dmitri Medvedev ordered a halt to military action in Georgia Tuesday, saying it had punished Georgia and brought security for civilians and Russian peacekeepers in the breakaway South Ossetia region.

"The security of our peacekeepers and civilians has been restored," Medvedev said in a nationally televised statement. "The aggressor has been punished and suffered very significant losses. Its military has been disorganized."

At the same time, Medvedev ordered the military to quell any signs of Georgian resistance. "If there are any emerging hotbeds of resistance or any aggressive actions, you should take steps to destroy them," he told his defense minister at a Kremlin meeting.

Associated Press (http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gDNLWfQWKrQc48pITBUg9KT_6oVwD92GLNHO1) (video (http://www.russiatoday.com/news/news/28870/video))

The operations to oblige Georgia to restore peace have ended because they have achieved their main goal: to protect Russian peacekeepers and the civilian population of South Ossetia.

At a meeting in the Kremlin with President of France Nicolas Sarkozy, Dmitry Medvedev informed his French colleague about the end of the operations to oblige the Georgian authorities to restore peace. Dmitry Medvedev stressed that the operations in South Ossetia have ended because they have achieved their main goal: to protect Russian peacekeepers and the civilian population.

Following negotiations which lasted more than four hours, the presidents of Russia and France elaborated six principles for the settlement of the Georgian-South Ossetian conflict:

– do not resort to the use of force;

– the absolute cessation of all hostilities;

– free access to humanitarian assistance;

– the Armed Forces of Georgia must withdraw to their permanent positions;

– the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation must withdraw to the line where they were stationed prior to the beginning of hostilities; prior to the establishment of international mechanisms the Russian peacekeeping forces will take additional security measures; and,

– an international debate on the future status of South Ossetia and Abkhazia and ways to ensure their lasting security will take place.

Kremlin (http://www.kremlin.ru/eng/text/themes/2008/08/122255_205229.shtml)

With these concerns in mind, I have directed a series of steps to demonstrate our solidarity with the Georgian people and bring about a peaceful resolution to this conflict. I'm sending Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice to France, where she will confer with President Sarkozy. She will then travel to Tbilisi, where she will personally convey America's unwavering support for Georgia's democratic government. On this trip she will continue our efforts to rally the free world in the defense of a free Georgia.

I've also directed Secretary of Defense Bob Gates to begin a humanitarian mission to the people of Georgia, headed by the United States military. This mission will be vigorous and ongoing. A U.S. C-17 aircraft with humanitarian supplies is on its way. And in the days ahead we will use U.S. aircraft, as well as naval forces, to deliver humanitarian and medical supplies.

The President (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2008/08/20080813.html) (video (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2008/08/20080813.wm.v.html))

We must keep up our guard, but we must also continue to work together to lessen and eliminate tension and mistrust. My view is that President Gorbachev is different from previous Soviet leaders. I think he knows some of the things wrong with his society and is trying to fix them. We wish him well. And we'll continue to work to make sure that the Soviet Union that eventually emerges from this process is a less threatening one. What it all boils down to is this: I want the new closeness to continue. And it will, as long as we make it clear that we will continue to act in a certain way as long as they continue to act in a helpful manner. If and when they don't, at first pull your punches. If they persist, pull the plug. It's still trust but verify. It's still play, but cut the cards. It's still watch closely. And don't be afraid to see what you see.

... Well, action is still needed. If we're to finish the job, Reagan's regiments will have to become the Bush brigades. Soon he'll be the chief, and he'll need you every bit as much as I did.

President Reagan's farewell address (http://www.reagan.utexas.edu/archives/speeches/1989/011189i.htm)
Will they become McCain mavericks?

[RogerFGay]

European politicians are ticked off - Russia's attack in Georgia is an unacceptable war.

And a Swedish security expert was on the news tonight, having advised the Swedish government that Russia should be removed from the Council of Europe - because they don't follow the rules that are in the nature of its members. He also mentioned that the G8 is a similar organization. If Russia is allowed to stay, then these can no longer be considered serious organizations and will be ignored.

[norman]

I petition for some volcanic activity of Mount Elbrus (Эльбрус) and Mount Kazbek (მყინვარწვერი) in the Caucasus Mountains (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasus_Mountains) and cyclonic activity in the northwest Arabian Sea (حر العرب) as it would help with oil and air.

[DeclinetoState]

If Russia is allowed to stay, then these [Council of Europe and G8] can no longer be considered serious organizations and will be ignored.
Right now, I consider them both to be about as serious as the UN. Or Paris Hilton's autobiography.

[RogerFGay]

Somebody please help me out here - my source of American news was cut off for a while, and I was too busy anyway. I've seen a couple of commentaries that seem odd to me, like <a href="http://mensnewsdaily.com/2008/08/13/georgia-on-my-mind/">this one</a> and <a href="http://mensnewsdaily.com/2008/08/11/a-new-and-needless-cold-war/">this one</a>. Has the Bush admin. suggested a declaration of war against Russia? Or, is there some more subtle suggestion that makes this sort of argument relevant at this time?

Feel free to give any perspective you think relevant - regardless of agreement or disagreement with the expressed sentiment / opinion, I'm just feeling out of the loop - like these commentaries are just odd.

[norman]

Somebody please help me out here - my source of American news was cut off for a while, and I was too busy anyway.
U.S. military provides humanitarian aid to Georgia
Release Date: Aug 14, 2008
Air Force Capt. Erin Dorrance
86th Airlift Wing Public Affairs

TBILISI, Georgia — A C-17 Globemaster departed Ramstein Air Base, Germany, and landed at Tbilisi International Airport, Aug. 13, 2008, delivering $1 million in humanitarian aid to reduce the suffering of the people of the Republic of Georgia.
....
"We are very pleased that the joint military community - EUCOM, U.S. Army Europe and U.S. Air Forces in Europe, have the opportunity to provide logistical support to bring these humanitarian supplies here," said U.S. Navy Lt. Cmdr. Corey Barker, USEUCOM spokesperson. "EUCOM forces will remain ready to support as further needs are assessed."

EUCOM (http://www.eucom.mil/english/index.asp)

http://i533.photobucket.com/albums/ee338/normaniii/Picture2.png

Jgëræg rallies for free Georgia
Voice of America (http://voanews.com/english/2008-08-14-voa6.cfm) 2008-08-14 (cf. 1765 (http://www.ushistory.org/Declaration/related/sons.htm))

[RogerFGay]

Thanks norman. That's interesting. If I'm not mistaken, that's a deeper US / European involvement than ever before, right? Practical as well as diplomatic / symbolic importance. I'm still not sure I see why commentators are warning us about Russia's nuclear capabilities at this point, but I suppose that's just a matter of sensitivity level ... logically, if one simply makes a (big) linear projection in the direction of heightened conflict ... but, that sort of makes me feel the same as I would about predicting catastrophic global warming because we have a nice, sunny day.

[RogerFGay]

OK ... The video posted in this thread (http://www.freeconservatives.com/vb/showthread.php?p=710077#post710077) helped me a lot ... tense situation. That puts the rest of the news I can find in a different perspective.

Still not sure I'm going to get worried about nuclear war right away, but I think my basic perspective is now on track.

[norman]

Still not sure I'm going to get worried about nuclear war right away, but I think my basic perspective is now on track.
Air Force Professionals don't take their marbles and go home
Commentary by Lt. Col. Pete York
39 Air Base Wing Inspector General

I hate to be a wet blanket, but I've noticed some rather disturbing trends with our town hall meeting etiquette. This certainly is not an end-of-the-world-type issue, but since we're having these meetings on a monthly - or more frequently than that!--basis, we need to remember to, well, put our napkin in our lap and chew with our mouth closed.

8/14/2008 - Incirlik Air Base (http://www.incirlik.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123110771), Turkey (12 km east of Adana, Turkey's fifth largest city)

[Not_A_Libscum]

At the risk of appearing politically incorrect: screw 'em. All Communists and socialists are animals. Let them kill each other. Let the Russkies disrupt the flow of oil.

Maybe spineless Americans will rise up and force the Libscum Dumbocrats to vote on domestic drilling, (perhaps throw the bums out of office in the process).

[RogerFGay]

Update: Georgian Parliament voted to quit the Commonwealth of Independent Nations, effective immediately.

The Georgian parliament voted unanimously today to leave the Commonwealth of Independent States (CIS), while the presidents of Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan simultaneously called for CIS to solve the conflict in South Ossetia.

Kazakhstan’s president Nursultan Nazarbajev said that if the member states do not act to stabilize the situation, it could lead to an irreparable crisis in the CIS.

[Lazarus]

...My understanding of the facts is:

1. There was a cease-fire agreement between Georgia and South Ossetia.
2. There were Russian peacekeepers in South Ossetia.
3. Georgia attacked South Ossetia and Russian peacekeepers.
4. Russia attacked Georgia to effect peace.

I speculate and suspect that Georgia attacked South Ossetia to provoke Russia into a fight and to drag the west into the conflict.....Sounds like you have been reading Russian press releases...

Russian citizens moved into the regions in question, which were Georgian territory, much like German citizens migrating into Poland before WW2 began... Putin used the claim that these Russian citizens were being threatened (when Georgia tried to bolster their claims over the territories instead of just allowing Russia to claim it by adverse possession), and invaded under the pretense of protecting Russian citizens... Hitler used the same procedure to invade Poland...

Putin longs for the old Soviet Union... He intends to topple the legitimate Georgian government and install his own Russian-friendly puppet governor... This whole action is intended to test the resolve of NATO and epsecially the US, because the US is the muscle behind NATO...

If NATO does not take direct action, Putin will reach for the Ukraine... He needs the Black Sea for his Navy...

Make no mistake, Putin is putting the old Soviet Union back together... If NATO and the European countries don't take decisive action now, he WILL achieve exactly that... I suspect Putin will get everything he wants...

Regardless of what liberals want to believe about Russia, in reality Putin is the sole dictator of a totalitarian government... As such he is making quick, efficient decisions, while NATO and the EU are floundering committees, and committees are never capable of rapid, decisive action...

Bush should press NATO to install the Ukraine as a full member... He should also direct the Pentagon to deploy a naval fleet to the Black Sea... We'll see how Putin likes that... If Putin can invade a sovereign country with impunity, there's no reason why the US Navy can't enjoy a vacation in the Bosperus...

PS: Just a little food for thought - What The Germans did to install its citizens in Poland, and what Russia has done to install its citizens in Georgia, is remarkably similar to what Mexico is doing by installing its citizens in the US... One wonders what will be the US response when a concentration of Mexican illegals lays claim to Arizona and New Mexico and declare them as
"break away regions"...

We have been so focused of late on Muslim terrorists, that we have forgotten to watch any of the other developments around the world - including those within our own borders...

[DeclinetoState]

The Georgian parliament voted unanimously today to leave the Commonwealth of Independent States (CIS), while the presidents of Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan simultaneously called for CIS to solve the conflict in South Ossetia.
I didn't even know there was such a thing as the Commonwealth of Independent States. I thought it was a more-or-less fictional entity created by the International Olympic Committee years ago after the collapse of the Soviet Union to cover those athletes from countries that had previously been Soviet states and that had not yet formed their own Olympic committees, teams, etc.

[RogerFGay]

I didn't even know there was such a thing as the Commonwealth of Independent States. ....

A dream gone bad? Not that I've really been keeping track, but since Putin took power, it seems like they've been more like enemies than friends ... so, I don't know that there's any point to the organization anyway. It probably should disband, if only for the sake of an honest appearance.

[DeclinetoState]

It probably should disband, if only for the sake of an honest appearance.
Some would say the same for the UN.

:evilgrin:

[RogerFGay]

Russia out of the G8 (for what that's worth anyway).

[norman]

Russia out of the G8 (for what that's worth anyway).

http://i533.photobucket.com/albums/ee338/normaniii/Picture47.png

RU (http://www.kremlin.ru/eng/export/index.xml) (feed)
US (http://www.whitehouse.gov/rss/news.xml) (feed)

[ThomasMore]

At the risk of appearing politically incorrect: screw 'em. All Communists and socialists are animals. Let them kill each other. Let the Russkies disrupt the flow of oil.

Maybe spineless Americans will rise up and force the Libscum Dumbocrats to vote on domestic drilling, (perhaps throw the bums out of office in the process).

Oy vey, N_A_L! Where did you get the idea that the Georgians are Communists???

They are pro-America, want to join NATO, and have joined organizations to watch and limit Russia's power. Why do you think Russia is "punishing" them (to use the Russian Foreign Minister's own words)?

The president of Georgia is US-educated with a Dutch wife. He even worked in New York for a US law firm. He ditched the political party of Eduard Shevardnadze as too corrupt, and participated in the Rose Revolution.

So when the East Germans started knocking down the Berlin Wall, if the USSR had moved in with tanks, would you have said "screw em" then, too?

What if Russia moves on the Baltic states or on Poland? Are they all commies, not a dime's difference between 'em?

Hate to tell you, we have more commies in the House of Representatives and on any given college campus than you have in Georgia.

[Wyatt_Junker]

Russia out of the G8 (for what that's worth anyway).

And in with the G Unit (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnHswR3ZDMg).

[ThomasMore]

I would like to see Ukraine in NATO.

Even if Putin completely absorbs Georgia (which would be a genuine tragedy), Putin has sealed his fate and that of Medvedev:

Europe sees the old Soviet bear rearing its head. This was not just a shot at Georgia, but at all of Europe both territorially and for its oil supplies.

This is not over, and Russia might just lose. Too bad we are in year 7 1/2 of the Bush presidency. At least GWB wouldn't go wobbly, something I don't trust of McCain. As for Obama, calling him an "empty suit" is an insult to coat hangers.

[Lazarus]

I would like to see Ukraine in NATO.

Even if Putin completely absorbs Georgia (which would be a genuine tragedy), Putin has sealed his fate and that of Medvedev:

Europe sees the old Soviet bear rearing its head. This was not just a shot at Georgia, but at all of Europe both territorially and for its oil supplies.

This is not over, and Russia might just lose. Too bad we are in year 7 1/2 of the Bush presidency. At least GWB wouldn't go wobbly, something I don't trust of McCain. As for Obama, calling him an "empty suit" is an insult to coat hangers.I looked up the membership list of NATO and it includes most of the former Soviet Block countries already... Ukraine and Georgia are about the only two left to take in...

Which gives us some insight into why NATO is slow about bringing them in now - Not that they aren't trusted - not that at all... But many of the Western European NATO members are afraid of "provoking" Russia... IOW, NATO is being hamstrung by a bunch of Western European Weak Sisters...

I heard a talking head on the BBC this morning saying that the western members of the EU, led by Germany and France, are pushing for Georgia to sign the cease fire and kowtow to Russia... But the East European countries, former slaves to Russia, Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, etc, are arguing for the systematic isolation of Russia - Those countries know what Russia is capable of, and they plainly see the obvious signs of Russian Imperialism rearing its ugly head again...

The Soviet Union isn't dead - It went into hybernation for a short season, but now they have access to vast quantities of commodities that are in great demand, and thus they have now what they didn't have before - MONEY... Putin and his gang are not the reincarnation of the old Soviet State - They ARE the old Soviet State re-emerging from the hole they were hiding in...

And all the blustering speeches by Western "leaders" declaring that the Cold War is over (Laz glares at Bush) is just dangerous foolishness... Its here and its alive...

Add to that the fact that China is probably the world's biggest and richest industrial power and we find ourselves in a very dangerous situation...

[ThomasMore]

Exactly as Lazarus said.

The Europeans broke down exactly as I expected them to.

The Western Europeans, bailed out by the United States in the past and accustomed to their cafe society, have no guts to take on the Russian bear.

The Eastern Europeans, who lived under Soviet terror, are ready to fight.

Who'da thunk it?

As you noted, the majority of NATO is now eastern -- either ex-Warsaw Pact or ex-Soviet territory, but the leadership, money and headquarters are still in the west. How the decisionmaking within NATO falls out will be VERY interesting.

[norman]

http://i533.photobucket.com/albums/ee338/normaniii/Picture13-1.png

"There's no room for debate on this matter. The United Nations Security Council has adopted numerous resolutions concerning Georgia. These resolutions are based on the premise that South Ossetia and Abkhazia remain within the borders of Georgia and that their underlying conflicts will be resolved through international negotiations. These resolutions are based on the premise that South Ossetia and Abkhazia are to be considered a part of the Georgian territory, and to the extent there's conflicts they will be resolved peacefully."

The President (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2008/08/20080816-1.html) (point 6)