Who are the Neocons?

[RedWhiteandBlue]

[ QUOTE ]
Jason said:

If someone holding a gun in his hand walked into a room full of people, they would at once feel threatened. However if none of them even knew what a gun was, they would merely be a little confused by it, but not threatened. This is my dilemma in explaining the situation with many of you. Mass media is a powerful weapon.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahhhhhhh, I see. So you're making an appeal to fear.

[DoctorDoom]

Someone found the Nizkor Project (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/index.html) site or something similar.

[RedWhiteandBlue]

[ QUOTE ]
DoctorDoom said:
Someone found the Nizkor Project (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/index.html) site or something similar.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually I've been studying the subject for some time, and pointing out and naming logical fallacies wouldn't normally be my preferred method of argument, but since Jason is claiming expertise it seemed an appropriate way to demonstrate he doesn't have the grip on logic he thinks he does.

[paleo]

Sure Tex,

of course there are no conspiracies.

This is all coincidence:

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/BODIES.html

http://freeconservatives.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tinhat.gif

--paleo

[DesertFox]

* Y a w n *

[paleo]

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[DesertFox]

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[Naturalized-Texan]

[ QUOTE ]
of course there are no conspiracies.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm glad you agree.

[paleo]

Rabbi Menachem Schneerson: "A non-Jew’s entire reality is only vanity...The entire creation exists only for the sake of the Jews".

"President Clinton spoke these words at the Congressional Gold Medal ceremony in 1995 that took place after the Rabbi's death:
"The late Rebbe's eminence as a moral leader for our country was recognized by every president since Richard Nixon. For over two decades the Rabbi's movement now has some 2000 institutions; educational, social, medical, all across the globe. We, (The United States Government) recognize the profound role that Rabbi Schneerson had in the expansion of those institutions."

http://www.congressionalgoldmedal.com/RabbiMenachemMendelSchneerson.htm

[lazyeyd]

its the illuminati, man! they're gonna take over the whole freaking world!













conspiracies are always good for a chuckle.

[paleo]

May 18, 1996
Web posted at: 2:50 p.m. EDT

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- President Clinton spent an hour and a half Saturday morning with the family of the U.S. Navy's top officer, Admiral Mike Boorda, who committed suicide Thursday.

Clinton consoled Boorda's widow Bettie, his four children and several grandchildren. Two of Boorda's sons are Naval officers, as is one of his daughters-in-law.


Administration officials described the meeting as emotional. Mrs. Boorda reportedly told stories and anecdotes about her husband, who was chief of naval operations. The president talked about the "special relationship" he felt he had with the admiral. The president and Mrs. Boorda spent a good deal of time talking privately in the garden.

Each of Boorda's children also paid a moving tribute to their father, remembering life with him...

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/BODIES.html

http://freeconservatives.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon62.gif http://freeconservatives.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon62.gif http://freeconservatives.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon62.gif http://freeconservatives.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon62.gif http://freeconservatives.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon62.gif http://freeconservatives.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon62.gif http://freeconservatives.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon62.gif http://freeconservatives.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon62.gif http://freeconservatives.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon62.gif http://freeconservatives.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon62.gif

[paleo]

Adm. Boorda's Jewish and Bill Clinton isn't. Case Closed.

"--- Begin Message ---
-Caveat Lector-

I can't verify anything in a legal sense. The Lt. told me that 'X'
told him..so it is all hearsay. The Washington Post article is
January 20, 2002, and probably easily verifiable.

Lt. Vreeland gave clues that his main
contact/control was Jack Punches. From the memorial pages:
U.S. Navy Capt. (Ret.) Jack Punches worked in the Pentagon as
deputy head, Navy Interagency Support Branch.
He earned a B.S. degree from Missouri University, an M.S. from the
Naval War College and an M.S. from Salve Regina in International
Relations. Designated a Naval aviator in 1975, he was assigned to NAS
Jacksonville, Fl. After three deployments he served as an instructor
pilot. In 1982, he reported to VPU-1 (Special Projects) in Brunswick,
Me. After two years of intelligence duties, he reported to the Navy
War College. After graduation, he served as a maintenance officer. He
joined the Fleet Logistics Support Squadron in Sicily as the
executive officer in 1989. He assumed command of VR-24 in 1991 and
deployed to Saudi Arabia in support of Operations Desert Storm/
Desert Shield. In 1992, he reported to United Command as chief,
airborne operations. In 1995, he became head of Navy Counterdrug in
the office of Chief of Naval Operations and special assistant to the
Under Secretary of the Navy. In 1996, he served as deputy director,
Operations and Interagency Support division. He retired in 2000 and
worked for Blue Stone Consulting of Alexandria, Va. Later that year
he returned to the Navy as a senior civilian employee at the Navy
Interagency Support Branch...
:::::::::

Note, 1995, "head of Navy Counterdrug in the office of Chief of Naval
Operations." The CNO then would have been Adm. Boorda (and Lt.
Vreeland supposedly an operative.) According to the Lt., Jeremy
Boorda was extremely displeased with the CIA using his naval ships
and submarines to smuggle drugs. Beyond that President Clinton had
some very shady dealings with the Chinese that may have qualified as
treason. If so the investigation would be the CNO's responsibility.
Vreeland, who considered both Clinton and Bush Sr. to be criminals,
described Boorda as "not a bad guy".

My *guess* for the other contact was:
::::::
CDR William H. Donovan, Jr., USN
CDR Donovan was assigned as the OPNAV N-513 Strategy & Concepts
Action Officer. His prior assignments include VP-11, VP-31, Naval
Post Graduate School, CVN-73, VP-1, and OPNAV N-512 (Policy and
Doctrine).
:::::::
Another possibility is:
::::::
Otis V. Tolbert
U.S. Navy Lt. Cmdr. Otis V. Tolbert, 38, wrote intelligence
briefings for the chief of naval operations in the Pentagon...
::::::
or, another intelligence briefer but lower ranked:
::::::
LT Jonas P. Panik, USN
LT Jonas was assigned as the Flag Intelligence Briefer, Chief of
Naval Operations Intelligence Plot (CNO-IP). His prior assignments
include Office of Naval Intelligence and VP-46.
::::::::

The most mysterious death in the Naval Command Center on 9/11 was Lt.
Darin Pontell, but at 26, he only graduated as an Intel officer in
1998.
From Carol Valentine:
DARIN PONTELL CALLS HOME FROM THE GRAVE According to the Washington
Post, January 20, 2002, "The Last Watch," (front page, Style
section), the entire chain of command of the super secret Chief of
Naval Operations Intelligence Plot (CNO-IP) were killed in the
September 11 attack on the Pentagon. One of the victims was Darin
Pontell, who worked in CNO-IP. The Post reported that two days after
the attack, Darin's parents were still hoping Darin was alive. Here
is an excerpt from "The Last Watch," Washington Post, January 20,
2001, pg.F1. "'Where'd I put my cell phone? Where is it?' Marilyn
Pontell, Darrin's mother, grew frantic looking for her purse. Her
Nokia was chiming 'Take Me Out to the Ball Game.' "Marilyn would be
sick if she missed that call. Maybe it was news about her son. maybe
it was Darin himself. "Two days later, Marilyn and Gary Pontell still
hoped their youngest boy had been spared. Gathered at Darin and
Devora's apartment in Gaithersburg on Thursday afternoon, they could
barely process the idea that he was dead . . . "Navy officials gave
garbled reports: One person said someone who looked like Darin walked
from the scene. Somebody else claimed he was working far away, in the
A-Ring. An officials said they couldn't find his Acura Integra in the
Pentagon lot ... "The Nokia sang again, then silence. Too late. when
she finally got to the phone, Marilyn scrolled through the menu. One
missed call: 1:57 p.m. No message. But the incoming number was
clearly identified. It was Darin's. "My God, maybe he was alive. "For
five more days, they waited. On Sept. 18, the Navy informed the
Pontells that Darin's body had been positively identified. His cell
phone was never returned to the family. They presume it was never
found. Perhaps the flip-phone had somehow dialed Marilyn's number
when the rubble shifted. But didn't all cell phones have to be turned
off upon entry into the CNO-IP [Chief of Naval Operations
Intelligence Plot]? "The FBI offered a one-word explanation for that
call: 'anomaly.'"

http://freeconservatives.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon62.gif http://freeconservatives.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon62.gif http://freeconservatives.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon62.gif http://freeconservatives.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon62.gif http://freeconservatives.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon62.gif http://freeconservatives.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon62.gif http://freeconservatives.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon62.gif http://freeconservatives.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon62.gif http://freeconservatives.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon62.gif

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[DesertFox]

This one's headed for the Conspiracy Corridor.

[paleo]

Pentagon, GAO Report Israeli Espionage And Illegal
Technology Retransfer

by Shawn L. Twing

April 1996, pgs. 14, 113

The new year started off on a sour note for the controversial U.S.-Israeli "strategic
relationship" when two reports from the Department of Defense and one from the
General Accounting Office (GAO) highlighted Israel's espionage activities against the
United States and Israeli thefts of U.S. military technology secrets, and confirmed that
Israel has illegally retransferred U.S. technology from the largely U.S.-funded Lavi fighter
program to China.

The first round of revelations began with a report in the February issue of Moment, a
Jewish monthly published in Washington, DC. The magazine described a Defense
Investigative Service (DIS) warning to U.S. defense contractors about espionage by
U.S. allies. One of the counterintelligence profiles provided with the memo detailed
Israeli "espionage intentions and capabilities" aimed at the United States (see p. 113
for the full text of the DIS Counterintelligence Profile). The memo was sent to defense
contractors last October by the Syracuse, NY-based agency responsible for issuing
security clearances to Department of Defense employees and defense contractors.

Shortly after the Moment story appeared, Anti-Defamation League (ADL) executive
director Abraham Foxman protested that the profile "impugns American Jews and
borders on anti-Semitism" because of its reference to the potential security threat
posed by individuals having "strong ethnic ties" to Israel, a euphemism for American
Jews.

The Pentagon responded to Foxman by canceling the memo and promising not to issue
a similar one in the future...

more at http://www.amenusa.org/spy3.htm

[Estragon]

BTW the Illuminati were rather latecomers to the taking-over-the-world game. The Knights Templar got things going back in the 12th Century, followed by the Masons in the 18th.

However, since the Illuminati were primarily of German origin, these guys are probably in their kampf.

[DesertFox]

Droll, Estragon. http://freeconservatives.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[paleo]

Alexander, Caesar Augustus, Gengkis Khan, Napolean,
Bolsheviks, Hitler, PNAC..

Taking over the world is an old game indeed.

It's a 'racial' problem: the Human Race.

It keeps producing these megalomaniacs.

So it goes.

[Timberwolf]

Lobo posted this a few months back...I thought I'd repost it here giving him due credit. This is hilarious.

[ QUOTE ]
TheRealLobo said:
It's been awhile since I've have strange people knocking on my door, and in the interest of placing myself in the crosshairs of those who REALLY rule the world, I present:

ILLUMINATI
-- To the tune of "Eleanor Rigby"
11-07-88
Steve Jackson, Joe Vail, Creede Lambard

Illuminati...
They put a thing made of tinfoil on top of my door...
What is it for?
Illuminati...
Shooting a ray at my cornflakes to make them turn green...
What does it mean?
The Illuminati... They're watching me, I know.
The Illuminati... They're everywhere I go.

Illuminati...
Doing unspeakable things in the night to a cow...
Where are they now?
Illuminati...
Sent an impostor in place of the Popsicle man...
What is their plan?
The Illuminati... They're watching me, I know.
The Illuminati... They're everywhere I go.

Illuminati...
They cancelled Star Trek, The Fonz, and My Mother, the Car...
Are they bizarre?
You can't escape them;
Even if you take a plane to Nepal or Peru...
They'll be there, too...
The Illuminati... They're watching me, I know.
The Illuminati... They're everywhere I go.

I know that they know all about me...
They know that I know all about them...

Illuminati...
Hide their assassins' instructions in newspaper text...
Who will be next?
They're all around us...
Underline every third word in the Times and you'll see...
How can it be?
The Illuminati... They're watching me, I know.
The Illuminati... They're everywhere I go.

They're in the attic and the cellar...
Bigger than Hunt or Rockefeller...

Illuminati...
Go through my garbage and count all the pop bottles there...
Why do they care?
They're out to get me...
They're fluoridating my water from their UFO...
What do they know?
The Illuminati... They're everywhere, I see.
The Illuminati... And no one knows but me.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Jason]

[ QUOTE ]
Chris said:
If there are Jews that are really trying to take over the world all this time, they haven't been alone in that endeavor, and it isn't just because they are Jews. The evils of this world are not confined to any one people group. And those that perpetuate the kind of nonsense you're pushing are part of the evil they claim to decry.

[/ QUOTE ] Of course they're not alone. It's a matter of who is in a position to do so.

[DesertFox]

* Y a w n*

[Jason]

[ QUOTE ]
Naturalized-Texan said:

All very interesting, but totally irrelevant unless one is a nutty conspiracy theorist.

Why was it that the Jews were the prime victims of Lenin's and Stalin's persecution and the MAJOR inhabitants of the Gulag? I'll provide the answer: It was because the Jews were free-market entrepreneurs (the Kulaks, who were among the first to be packed into box cars and shipped to the Siberian Gulag) who believed in individual and economic freedoms and, as such, were a serious threat to the Communist elites. The only difference between Hitler and Lenin/Stalin in the ways that they treated the Jews was that Hitler murdered the Jews in gas chambers in the slave labor camps and Lenin/Stalin worked and starved to death the Jews in slave labor camps.

[/ QUOTE ] N.T,
Your posts consistently have the tone of "Anyone who believes such and such is a so and so". Lenin was part Jew. It was not until the the Stalin -Trotsky struggle that any Jews were persecuted, and that was because Trotsky and his followers were Jews. The persecution of Jews in USSR is overstated. It remained a crime to own a copy of The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion.

[Jason]

[ QUOTE ]
Naturalized-Texan said:
For those of you who believe the fairy tales about imaginary threats to American sovereignty from organizations like the CFR and the TC, let me tell you about a REAL threat to American sovereignty. It is the UN Commission on Global Governance (CGG) headed up by a left-wing zealot, Maurice Strong.


[/ QUOTE ] N.T.,
Well at least you got one thing right. But if you think ideology is behind global governance, how can you explain that so many of these one-worlders are geniuses? If you read anything about Strong and his many accomplishments you'll conclude that he is not lacking in the area of ability. He wasn't a parking lot attendant before he was involved with the UN. If conspiracy theories are so stupid as you assert, how can you explain why so many rich, powerful capitalists like Rockefeller promoted communism?

Why N.T., would they promote an ideology that anyone with an IQ over 100 can see is doomed to fail and goes against rich people? Answer: because communism was never intended as a workable ideology, it was designed as a tool.

[Jason]

[ QUOTE ]
DesertFox said:
People don't want to accept that America's govt and way of life are so transparent that conspiracies just aren't convincing. What you see is nearly always all there was to see; and the few times it wasn't, incompetence and bad judgment are far, FAR likelier explanations than some deep, dark conspiracy to enslave us all.


[/ QUOTE ]D.F.,
America is only transparent to those who wish to see and are capable of doing so.
Most Americans see the world through Jewish media. The tiny fraction of Americans who circumvent the entity that has demonstrated it's contempt for the free expression of ideas by monopolizing influence and seeks other sources is labeled as paraniod conspiracy theorists, anti-semites, nazis, etc.

I have found your arguments among the most rational of all those who disagree with me here and I hope you continue this discussion in spite of this thread having been buried.

[Jason]

[ QUOTE ]
Estragon said:
BTW the Illuminati were rather latecomers to the taking-over-the-world game. The Knights Templar got things going back in the 12th Century, followed by the Masons in the 18th.

However, since the Illuminati were primarily of German origin, these guys are probably in their kampf.

[/ QUOTE ]

The founder of the Illuminati was Adam Weiscapt, a Jew . It's my understanding that most secret societies have some stated philosophy of world domination. Have you ever wondered why mass media has very little to say about secret societies?

[Jason]

Timberwolf,

Your signature says "Screw the world order". Have you ever given much independent thought as to what the New World Order is about? What do you think are the motives of it's advocates?

[paleo]

Good one, Timberwolf!

I've got a friend who knows the Mark Twain lyrics to the
Battle Hymn of the Republic. Think I'll print it out for him..

I don't get this 'Illuminati' plot starting with Weishaupt.
Before him were 'Alumbrados" in Spain,
even 'Roshinaya' in Afghanistan.

The so-called 'illuminated ones' is way old but they
always support the individual over religious or aristocratic/monarchist
authority.

Thomas Jefferson said Weishaupt wouldn't have needed a secret
society in America; that he could just be open about it.

The 'New World Order', according to HG Wells was an
"Open Conspiracy", not secret at all.

PNAC isn't secret either.

http://freeconservatives.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tinhat.gif

--paleo

[RocketScience]

[ QUOTE ]
paleo said:
You ask me: "To what "normal defenses" of the Pentagon are you referring?"

Wouldn't it have been appropriate for Senator Levin to ask the
Generals such questions?

[/ QUOTE ]

He may have been told what they could and could not address at that time and he chose to wait.

He may not have been smart enough to ask it.

He may have had gas and needed to get his questioning over quickly. Levin looks to me like a guy that spends a lot of time on the stool.


[ QUOTE ]
paleo said:
Another question you misaddress to me:

"What fighter squadron was on alert at Andrews? Since you believe that there is some conspiracy about the fighters coming from Massachusetts, have you spent the time determining if there even was a fighter squadron on alert at Andrews? Andrews is primarily a MAC base (Military Airlift Command - if they still call it that), what makes you so sure there is a fighter wing there (or even a detachment) and if there is, is it normally included in air defense tasking?"

Well, is it remotely believable to you that the air base that the President flies into and out of on Air Force One doesn't have fighter squadrons?

[/ QUOTE ]

Misaddress to you? Hell, you're the one making the charges -- you back them up -- don't ask me to prove your point -- I disagree with it!

Your last sentence makes sense to me without any other knowledge, but here are some other things to think about. The first being that fighters with escort duties don't have to be resident on Andrews, they could be based at Langely or NAS Oceana in Virginia -- all they have to do is be airborne and over Andrews when the President takes off. The guys who fly escort missions for the President are probably very much like the guys who fly Marine One and Air Force One -- hand picked for their jobs and not tasked for any other duty except to be (some of them at a given time) on call and only at the disposal of the President. Because of the requirement to use personnel from all services when possible, there might be a Marine detachment at Andrews flying F/A-18s, but only tasked on a rotating basis with Navy and Air Force collegues. The guys not so tasked may be on leave with their families, on emergency leave for sick relatives, or any other innocent tasking.

The President was traveling in Florida? And if they were assigned to guard his aircraft, were probably with him there. If so, that would mean any others assigned to the unit might be pre-positioned along his intended itinerary. If something came up they would be there to respond to protect the commander in chief and provide around-the-clock protection. That they were stationed a or based on Andrews is a mute point. They may not have even been there.

Besides, every outfit is not responsible for responding to instantaneous operational tasking while stationed in the continental U.S. Some are at various states of readiness while indoctrinating new personnel, some are in a 30 day stand down after returning from six month deployment out of the country, some are undergoing pre-deployment training and while physically located on a base or air station, may be doing a lot of training in flight and tactical simulators. Others that are out flying and not involved in gunnery or air-to-air training may not even be carrying weapons. That is done for the safety of the population. Any live-fire exercises or training that is done to ensure readiness is often done at a facility whose location does not pose a hazard for the civilian population.

You know what was funny about your assertion about the Marine F/A-18s? I can't even find them on the web -- just articles naming them as being assigned. Maybe they are a "black" outfit -- and they really don't exist?

Bottom line you referred me to others who are guessing. You never answered the question...

It may not support your argument, but a little honesty, like, -- Gee, I just don't know that answer... But I get it -- if you don't know and the Canadian author is just suggesting and asking rhetorical questions, it adds little credibility to all these made-up issues played as though they were "facts."

[ QUOTE ]
paleo said:
"On September 11th the squadrons there were: The 121st Fighter Squadron
of the 113th Fighter Wing, equipped with F-16s The 321st Marine Fighter
Attack Squadron of the 49th Marine Air Group, Detachment A, equipped
F/A-18s.

[/ QUOTE ]

Assuming the squadrons were assigned, they may have been engaged by tasking that did not require the squadron to fly that day. If they were then made aware of an immediate, emergency tasking, IF all the aircraft were ready to go, IF there was enough maintenance personnel qualified and ready to launch an aircraft, IF, IF, IF; and they got off after the Pentagon was attacked does not mean they screwed up. Someone without that knowledge, or even someone WITH that knowledge, if he wants to write a scathing piece can do so and fool a lot of uninformed folk with bogus information. It worked with you! Heck it happens all the time. Ever listen to the Democrats?

[ QUOTE ]
paleo said:"This information was on the website of the base on September 11th. On
September 12th, Andrews chose to update its website. I find it odd that
after the update there's no mention of the F-16 and F-18 fighters. The base
becomes, according to the website, home to a transport squadron only.

[/ QUOTE ]

This doesn't prove a conspiracy. It might be the result of a smart re-evaluation of procedures; of not wanting to make information available on the internet about the disposition of the forces that a) protect the president, b) defines our capability of protecting the capitol. As a military commander, I would not want OPSEC information about my units, their complement or what they do to be easily available on the internet after a 911 attack. There could have been sapers on the base at Andrews (friendly Muslims right up until...) that are ready to put small but effective satchel charges under parked aircraft. Unless you hunker down, right now, you may get whacked again; it only make s sense that you would do whatever you could to ensure the enemy didn't know where to hit you again and what your potential for stopping him might be.

And groups of civilians come out of the woodwork, coming at you from every possible agenda and want to know, in depth, how the military is supposed to function and where it actually did fail in its basing and protection policy. Only a suicidal fool would step up to the mike after 911 and tell YOU everything you wanted to know. Especially the stuff that was nonya.

[ QUOTE ]
paleo said:
"Yet at 6:30 the evening of September 11th NBC Nightly News, along with
many outlets, reported:

"'It was after the attack on the Pentagon that the Air Force then decided to
scramble F-16s out of the DC National Guard Andrews Air Force Base to
fly ... a protective cover over Washington, D.C.'

[/ QUOTE ]

After a national emergency like this one, the guys would volunteer to fly unserviceable aircraft, that they would never fly in peacetime, on a combat mission. I assumed all of the aircraft were "up" (up = fully operational and armed to the teeth) when I saw them on TV, but I'd fly one without a gun sight (HUD) or missile system if the nation's survival or honor was at stake -- sometimes perception saves your butt. You got an ejection seat -- you could always ram em. What do you think would be worse, get a pilot airborne with no crew rest and an inoperable weapon system or to wait about two or three hours until a guy who was on leave to be called in or the plane to be fixed before you took off?

There see, I've given the whacko conspirists something else to hyperventilate about! What if the ANG F-16's weren't capable of shooting anybody down? Oooo, now there's a story for you. Not true; made up; but maybe, just maybe it'll sell!

[ QUOTE ]
paleo said:
If you want to check the before-and-after Andrews website it was evidently copied on 9/11 by some diligent investigators:

[/ QUOTE ]

Covered above -- a sharp OPSEC guy woulda had the site down by 1600 -- or earlier.

[ QUOTE ]
paleo said: "...the FAA and the military have routine procedures for intercepting commercial jets."

An Air Traffic Controller can call for an escort (that is, a military jet) to be sent up to find out why a commercial jet has flown off course and guide it to a safe landing place. Or an escort can be used to put pressure on an uncooperative pilot or to intimidate a hijacker with a show of force.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, the capability exists, and it may be often exercised. Like you're going to shoot down a hijacker pre-911 with 67 people on board? This is America, it just doesn't work that way! Well times have changed haven't they? The Payne Stewart intercept was conducted by a diverted F-16 that was already airborne. He was called up to visually check out the aircraft, not to shoot it down. He may not have even been armed at the time. The later F-16s were armed because that was the contemplated mission -- to shoot don the Lear over an unpopulated area. They knew how much fuel the pilot had on board, they knew how much reserve he put on (it's on the filed flight plan), so they had a fairly good idea at cruise power settings at 45,000 feet how far the aircraft would fly before the engines flamed out. This was one single aircraft, no mass confusion, no fog of war, no trying to simultaneously get 5,000 airliners safely on the ground. The writer who speaks so confidently has never been in an FAA Center during the morning "rush hour" and has no idea of the pandemonium running amok amongst all the controllers on duty -- normally. September 11 set the bar for the mother of all FAA controller days.

[ QUOTE ]
paleo said:Which brings us to the matter of Andrews Air Force base. Andrews is ten miles from the Pentagon. It is the airport used by the President and other top officials, so of course it has to have escort planes. This was especially true on 9-11 because Air Force One, the President's jet, was in flight that day.

[/ QUOTE ]

Covered above. Tasked aircraft were probably close to the President's location for tasking as required.

[ QUOTE ]
paleo said:
In fact, Andrews keeps combat units "in the highest possible state of readiness."

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably does -- those tasked to respond to operational requirements or periods of planned availability. That does not mean every pilot in a fighter jet waiting to launch. People that believe that do so because they either don't have a clue about how the armed services work (probable), didn't take the time to investigate their charges other than the innuendo and gross generalizations that run rampant through your sources, or because they have an agenda about Bush, the military, or run with the hate America crowd.

The main source for this stuff is a Canadian? Author voted for Chretien, did he?


[ QUOTE ]
paleo said:
Senator Levin of course did not pursue the point.
That is what I meant by "That dog won't hunt."
It is an old Louisiana expression.


[/ QUOTE ]

With his level of clearance, he could have easily got the question answered off the record, or perhaps, because of its implication on national security, somebody told him to faget aboud it. It may be hard to remember back then, but the Democrats, knowing national hysteria was potentially right under the surface right after 911, may have drunk the cool aid and actually were easy to get along with because of GWs popularity (at around 95%) and the very real spectre that we were in trouble.

My, my; how times change.

OBTW, the handle, RocketScience, is a comment on how little common sense and intelligence is truly required to "get" most things today. It ain't that people aren't smart enough, more that they just aren't paying attention or analyzing ALL available facts or realities of a situation. Or in the case of conspiracy theorists, paint every unknown into an arcane and sinister plot.

Probably are the ones who miss Mulder and Scully the most.

Of course, there's always those with a persistent and visceral hate for America, hate for GW, and with their postmodernist educations truly believe that America is an evil power. They're the crowd that weighs in with a specific goal to dismiss facts and common sense in order to press home their fractured view of the world. But that will never change.

Rocket

[Timberwolf]

[ QUOTE ]
paleo said:
Good one, Timberwolf!

[/ QUOTE ]
Like I said, Lobo is the originator...whether he actually wrote it or not, I don't know...wouldn't doubt that he did, though.

[ QUOTE ]
I've got a friend who knows the Mark Twain lyrics to the Battle Hymn of the Republic. Think I'll print it out for him..

[/ QUOTE ]
That would be great!! Post it here!!

As for the "Screw the World Order", Jason...I don't give it much thought...I just keep the doors locked and the guns loaded.

You DO realize the reason we were never in danger of invasion by the Soviets during the Cold War was the number of guns held by the populace, right?? Had nothing to do, whatsoever, with our nuclear deterent.

So, do I think about a "World Order"?? Sure. Do I give a flying **** if it comes to pass? Hell no...as long as our 2nd amendment rights remain firmly in place, who cares??

[Jason]

Quincy,
Welcome to Free Conservatives.[ QUOTE ]
Quincy said:You say that Jews are trying to control the world by controlling the media and then your proof is that Jews control the media. That's what people are saying is circular about your argument.

[/ QUOTE ]What I'm arguing is the strategic value of what they have done, one has to understand the power of media to understand that commandeering the media is an act of aggression and commandeering most of the media in the world is an attempt to conquer the world.[ QUOTE ]

The one thing that would make me consider your hypothesis is if you showed me how Jews directly control every major media outlet in the United States. Then I might say, hey maybe some Jews really are trying to control the US by controlling our media, and maybe they're doing it in concert to control the world. Of course, even then, it takes a large leap to go from, Jews control the media to Jews control the media in cooperation with each other in order to control the world.

[/ QUOTE ] They control it by owning it. Ownership is corporate and therefore not absolute but they own enough of each media corp to control them. There is a bridge of evidence across this "leap" which I have given in earlier posts.[ QUOTE ]

The media won't sell people what they won't buy. This obviously has negative and positive effects, but one of the positive effects is that most major media outlets have to pander to what people want in order to stay in business. Conservative media owners will print/present liberal pieces (and vice versa) if they think they will sell, because if they don't do it then their competitors will. As long as the media remains a competitive assortment of business, it will always be impossible to control to the extent that world domination would require.

[/ QUOTE ] The power of suggestion determines what people will buy. If the media commands men to wear shorts so baggy you can put 2 legs in one, then that's what the masses buy. There is no competition in media. I know that sounds ridiculous in a free market but you have to understand that media has value in terms of power of suggestion,censorship, scrutiny and smear. Those most adept at using these tools are ultimately the ones who will struggle the hardest to aquire it. This places it out of reach of those with more legitimate intentions.[ QUOTE ]

You might have an easier time with your argument if you started smaller too. I mean, if there are alot of Jews in control of the US media, that still doesn't do much to forward the cause of WORLD domination. Do they control the media in France, Germany, Japan, China, Canada, Australia, India, etc?

[/ QUOTE ] All the western world at least, I'm not sure about Asia.[ QUOTE ]
Even if Jews managed to convince the US to go on a campaign of world domination, no matter how much you admire US millitary and economic might you have to admit that if the world ever thought we were serious about conquering everything they could take us down mighty fast. I mean, if China stops buying our government bonds then the government stops functioning right then and there. Better tell those ambitious Jews to go to China too. They sure do have their work cut out for them.

[/ QUOTE ] Your thinking is pretty good, Quincy. I think they have found the Asians easier to dominate than westerners and China will do exactly as you say. China has a Zillion Chinese and is fast becoming a powerful industrial nation. They may whip the daylights out of our children with our technology the Jews have given them.

[DesertFox]

Jews are out to conquer us because the media are powerful means of persuasion.

Jason, that does not compute.

[Jason]

[ QUOTE ]
DesertFox said:
Jews are out to conquer us because the media are powerful means of persuasion.

Jason, that does not compute.

[/ QUOTE ]It does when you fully understand that power and observe just exactly how they are using it.
Why else have Jews played a dominant role in promoting:
Gun control.
Feminism.
Homosexuality.
Atheism.
Multiculturalism.
Race-mixing.
Integration.
Third world immigration.
Conflict with Arabs.
Undermining sovereignty.
Ridicule of Western culture.
Fiat monetary systems.
Marxism.
Communism.
Liberalism.
International trade.
Social engineerng.
Redistribution schemes.
Centralized public school system.
etc

They have the means of attacking us with a "thousand pin pricks" over a period of decades without most of us noticing it unless they have drawn distinctions about these subtleties over a period of time.
Can you explain why they have siezed this power and are using it as such?
Much of this is explained in the Protocols of the Learned of Zion. Have you read them? They are only about 40 pages and quite interesting reading.

[paleo]

Timberwolf,

Here you go. It was written in 1900 in response to
the Spanish-American war:

Mine eyes have seen the orgy of the launching of the Sword;
He is searching out the hoardings where the stranger's wealth is stored;
He hath loosed his fateful lightnings, and with woe and death has scored;
His lust is marching on.

I have seen him in the watch-fires of a hundred circling camps;
They have builded him an altar in the Eastern dews and damps;
I have read his doomful mission by the dim and flaring lamps --
His night is marching on.

I have read his bandit gospel writ in burnished rows of steel:
"As ye deal with my pretensions, so with you my wrath shall deal;
Let the faithless son of Freedom crush the patriot with his heel;
Lo, Greed is marching on!"

We have legalized the strumpet and are guarding her retreat;*
Greed is seeking out commercial souls before his judgement seat;
O, be swift, ye clods, to answer him! be jubilant my feet!
Our god is marching on!

In a sordid slime harmonious Greed was born in yonder ditch,
With a longing in his bosom -- and for others' goods an itch.
As Christ died to make men holy, let men die to make us rich --
Our god is marching on.

http://freeconservatives.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon16.gif

--paleo

[Timberwolf]

Says a mouthful, don't he??

That IS good.

[paleo]

Rocket Science,

You bring up all sorts of good points that are hard to argue with.

I'm not making these conspiratorial charges myself, just
relaying the types of arguments I read on conspiracy sites.

I don't think anybody there has pointed out that the planes
tasked for escort were probably in Florida.

If Senator Levin had simply asked and General Eberhart explained,
then the whole issue might have been resolved in a minute or two
without setting off the paranoid/skeptic alarmists.

That would have saved a lot of bother.
It would have been reassuring.

I don't think Jason's generic 'Jews' care much about Canadian media.
Canada has no *power*, whereas obviously America does.
Hence, logically, they would prefer to buy up the American media.

The PNAC (Project for a New American Century) plan aims for a
'Pax Americana' patterned after the 'Pax Romana' of Augustus:
peace through imperial victory.

It's no secret that a majority of the neocon strategists are Jewish,
nor that the pro-war Chabad sect believes that Jews are destined to take over the world. This seems a tad nuts to me, but even if it is a remote possibility it is worth protecting against.

After all, the 9/11 attacks were a 'remote possibility' before they happened. Having a constipated, Democrat Senator who is
a big Chabad supporter as the fellow in charge of civilian
oversight just strikes me as imprudent.

Changing the Andrew's website was prudent. Any information
available to the public is obviously also available to America's enemies.

But the method of doing it perhaps could have been improved,
even just with a short note explaining that due to security concerns
the defensive forces and tasks of the base are no longer publicly available. Then it wouldn't look like they were just
covering their ass.

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to compose
a thoughtful and insightful response.

--paleo

[arthur d]

jason: "Why else have Jews played a dominant role in promoting:
Gun control.
Feminism.
Homosexuality.
Atheism.
Multiculturalism.
Race-mixing.
Integration.
Third world immigration.
Conflict with Arabs.
Undermining sovereignty.
Ridicule of Western culture.
Fiat monetary systems.
Marxism.
Communism.
Liberalism.
International trade.
Social engineerng.
Redistribution schemes.
Centralized public school system.
etc
"

the same reason non jews dominate/lead these and other ideas.. because they think it improves the world from their point of view. btw, Marx was more of an antisemite than you. Why would anyone want to read that filthy book, a branch of my family was eradicated because of it and I hope you meet a similar end.

[DesertFox]

Jason, Jews have also played leading roles against all these. You're just a standard-issue anti-Semite. Might as well be honest with yourself and admit it. What you haven't revealed is why you are anti-Semitic.

[Jason]

D.F.,
You are correct in your assertion that Jews have played a large role in opposing these issues. Let's discuss how this works.

Case in point, gun control:

Jews play the dominant role in gun control. Most gun control politicians are Jews, like Feinstein, Shumer, Metzenbaum and Boxer. Brady is not a Jew but Jews have given her social position with the media and have contributed to HCI. Without Jewish media control HCI would not even exist.
I'm sure you have heard of JPFO. Their job is to say " HEY, LOOKY HERE, WE ARE JEWS AND WE OPPOSE GUN CONTROL". This is the only thing they accomplish, diverting blame away from those who promote it. Do Feinstein Boxer and Shumer draw attention the the fact that they are Jews promoting gun control? Of course not. If gun control was a left wing issue and not a Jewish issue it would be politically feasible to have an organisation called "Jews for gun control" but it's not an idea from the left, it's an idea from the Jews. Lot's of democrats shoot ducks and quail. A liberal freind of mine proudly totes a 38.
It would not suit the Jews to say "Looky here, we are Jews and we want to impose gun control"

It's a war of ideas, and Jews have the ammunition and know how to use it.

[paleo]

RS,

I'm afraid I didn't get very far advancing your arguments to the
conspiracy researchers. I was refered to the May 24 hearings, eg.,

(...)
However, while Bush read the story about the goat, Vice President Dick Cheney was “in charge” in the president’s emergency control bunker, according to Secretary of Transportation Norman Y. Mineta.

Mineta’s testimony before a congressional investigative panel of what he witnessed in the president’s bunker on 9/11 is essential reading to understanding the allegations of official complicity.

On May 23, Mineta testified about Cheney’s actions in the bunker. Mineta said he arrived at the Presidential Emergency Operating Center (PEOC) at 9:20 a.m. where he observed the Vice President in charge:

Mineta: There was a young man who had come in and said to the vice president, “The plane is 50 miles out…The plane is 30 miles out.” And when it got down to, “The plane is 10 miles out,” the young man said to the vice president, “Do the orders still stand?”

Cheny whipped his neck around and said, “Of course the orders still stand. Have you heard anything to the contrary?” Well, at the time I didn’t know what all that meant. And…

Hamilton: The flight you’re referring to is the…

Mineta: The flight that came into the Pentagon.

Whether Cheney’s orders meant to shoot down the hijacked aircraft or not was raised. Mineta said there were no such orders to do so, which raises the question of what “the orders” were:

Hamilton: And so there was no specific order there to shoot that plane down.

Mineta: No, sir.

This is some 20 minutes after the second plane struck the World Trade Center and shortly before the Pentagon was hit. The aircraft being tracked is the one that hit the Pentagon.
(...)

from: http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=1105

http://freeconservatives.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tinhat.gif

--paleo

[Jason]

[ QUOTE ]
arthur d said:
Why would anyone want to read that filthy book, a branch of my family was eradicated because of it and I hope you meet a similar end.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have contempt for the concept of critical inquiry when you suggest that a book causes genocide. This implies you support the concept of book burning.
You must have a low opinion of gentiles if you suggest that reading a book will cause us to take violent action without verifying the content matter of that book, or that playing the victim will cause us to close our eyes about the validity of that book.

[Wyatt_Junker]

You will find your answer on the Led Zeppelin IV album, Stairway to Heaven...."that lady we all know..." backmasked at 33 revolutions per minute. Be forewarned though, one must have the skill of a dj and be under a controlled substance.

DO NOT TELL ANYONE.

Robert was just a plant. Shhhh.

[arthur d]

book burning? a low opinion of gentiles? are you deranged?? The only concept you've made me agree with is 'jason burning'. SEEK HELP!