Who are the Neocons? [Archive]

Powerboss

09-16-2003, 02:38 AM

I am probably not going to gain any friends by this but,

These are largely neocon think tanks.

PNAC... Project for a New Amrican Century
AEI.... American Enterprise Institute
AIMA.... American Institute for Middle East Affairs
JINSA.... Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs (this alone should tell you who really holds the power in the country)
CSP... Center for Security Policy

Traditionally, the neocon label applied to Jews that had converted to conservatism. The father of neoconservatism is Bill Kristols father, Erving? Something like that.

While I did support the war in Iraq, and fully support the war against terror, clearly, if what I have read about the NEOCONS is true, then it is far far different from the conservativism I fell in love with.

Are you all aware of the PNAC document?

Why are conservatives so unwaivering in their support for Israel?

1)Sharon is a war criminal. There is no doubt of this.
2)The USS Liberty. US govt investigations are flat out lying about this.
3)Operation Suzannah/The Lavon Affair Look into it yourself. The Israeli's attempted to stage a terrorist attack on a US building in Egypt but got caught red handed.
4)Israel has sold other nations, like Red China, technology we've given them.
5)Johnathan Pollard/Spys
6)Hold on to your horses here. ONE, 1, That is ONE Israeli died in the WTC attack. Considering that hundreds or possibly thousands of Jews/Israelis worked there it is beoming very clear that they knew of the attack and did not warn us. Don't belive me?
In the Washington Post Newsbytes there was an article that Officials at the Instant messaging firm Odigo confirmed that two employees received text messages warning of an attack on the WTC, 2 hours before the attack.
There is much more.....

They are not the innocent victims our media, which incidentally is controlled by the jews, portrays them as.

I've been doing a lot of research, from various sources and have gone to lengths to validate and cross check my information.
If I didn't believe it, I wouldn't type it. I get no thrill out of stating all of that because a short time ago I was a HUGE defender of Israel.
That has changed.

Fire away......

Neocon 101
Some basic questions answered.

What do neoconservatives believe?

"Neocons" believe that the United States should not be ashamed to use its unrivaled power – forcefully if necessary – to promote its values around the world. Some even speak of the need to cultivate a US empire. Neoconservatives believe modern threats facing the US can no longer be reliably contained and therefore must be prevented, sometimes through preemptive military action.

Most neocons believe that the US has allowed dangers to gather by not spending enough on defense and not confronting threats aggressively enough. One such threat, they contend, was Saddam Hussein and his pursuit of weapons of mass destruction. Since the 1991 Gulf War, neocons relentlessly advocated Mr. Hussein's ouster.

Most neocons share unwavering support for Israel, which they see as crucial to US military sufficiency in a volatile region. They also see Israel as a key outpost of democracy in a region ruled by despots. Believing that authoritarianism and theocracy have allowed anti-Americanism to flourish in the Middle East, neocons advocate the democratic transformation of the region, starting with Iraq. They also believe the US is unnecessarily hampered by multilateral institutions, which they do not trust to effectively neutralize threats to global security.

What are the roots of neoconservative beliefs?

The original neocons were a small group of mostly Jewish liberal intellectuals who, in the 1960s and 70s, grew disenchanted with what they saw as the American left's social excesses and reluctance to spend adequately on defense. Many of these neocons worked in the 1970s for Democratic Senator Henry "Scoop" Jackson, a staunch anti-communist. By the 1980s, most neocons had become Republicans, finding in President Ronald Reagan an avenue for their aggressive approach of confronting the Soviet Union with bold rhetoric and steep hikes in military spending. After the Soviet Union's fall, the neocons decried what they saw as American complacency. In the 1990s, they warned of the dangers of reducing both America's defense spending and its role in the world.

Unlike their predecessors, most younger neocons never experienced being left of center. They've always been "Reagan" Republicans.

What is the difference between a neoconservative and a conservative?

Liberals first applied the "neo" prefix to their comrades who broke ranks to become more conservative in the 1960s and 70s. The defectors remained more liberal on some domestic policy issues. But foreign policy stands have always defined neoconservatism. Where other conservatives favored détente and containment of the Soviet Union, neocons pushed direct confrontation, which became their raison d'etre during the 1970s and 80s.

Today, both conservatives and neocons favor a robust US military. But most conservatives express greater reservations about military intervention and so-called nation building. Neocons share no such reluctance. The post 9/11-campaigns against regimes in Afghanistan and Iraq demonstrate that the neocons are not afraid to force regime change and reshape hostile states in the American image. Neocons believe the US must do to whatever it takes to end state-supported terrorism. For most, this means an aggressive push for democracy in the Middle East. Even after 9/11, many other conservatives, particularly in the isolationist wing, view this as an overzealous dream with nightmarish consequences.

How have neoconservatives influenced US foreign policy?

Finding a kindred spirit in President Reagan, neocons greatly influenced US foreign policy in the 1980s.

But in the 1990s, neocon cries failed to spur much action. Outside of Reaganite think tanks and Israel's right-wing Likud Party, their calls for regime change in Iraq were deemed provocative and extremist by the political mainstream. With a few notable exceptions, such as President Bill Clinton's decision to launch isolated strikes at suspected terrorist targets in Afghanistan and Sudan in 1998, their talk of preemptive military action was largely dismissed as overkill.

Despite being muted by a president who called for restraint and humility in foreign affairs, neocons used the 1990s to hone their message and craft their blueprint for American power. Their forward thinking and long-time ties to Republican circles helped many neocons win key posts in the Bush administration.

The terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001 moved much of the Bush administration closer than ever to neoconservative foreign policy. Only days after 9/11, one of the top neoconservative think tanks in Washington, the Project for a New American Century, wrote an open letter to President Bush calling for regime change in Iraq. Before long, Bush, who campaigned in 2000 against nation building and excessive military intervention overseas, also began calling for regime change in Iraq. In a highly significant nod to neocon influence, Bush chose the American Enterprise Institute (AEI) as the venue for a key February 2003 speech in which he declared that a US victory in Iraq "could begin a new stage for Middle Eastern peace." AEI – the de facto headquarters for neconservative policy – had been calling for democratization of the Arab world for more than a decade.

What does a neoconservative dream world look like?

Neocons envision a world in which the United States is the unchallenged superpower, immune to threats. They believe that the US has a responsibility to act as a "benevolent global hegemon." In this capacity, the US would maintain an empire of sorts by helping to create democratic, economically liberal governments in place of "failed states" or oppressive regimes they deem threatening to the US or its interests. In the neocon dream world the entire Middle East would be democratized in the belief that this would eliminate a prime breeding ground for terrorists. This approach, they claim, is not only best for the US; it is best for the world. In their view, the world can only achieve peace through strong US leadership backed with credible force, not weak treaties to be disrespected by tyrants.

Any regime that is outwardly hostile to the US and could pose a threat would be confronted aggressively, not "appeased" or merely contained. The US military would be reconfigured around the world to allow for greater flexibility and quicker deployment to hot spots in the Middle East, as well as Central and Southeast Asia. The US would spend more on defense, particularly for high-tech, precision weaponry that could be used in preemptive strikes. It would work through multilateral institutions such as the United Nations when possible, but must never be constrained from acting in its best interests whenever necessary.

Powerboss

09-16-2003, 02:50 AM

Wondering why the middle easterners hate us?
A few reasons.
Certainly it is our "decadent" and unholy lifestyle and the fact that we are not Muslims.

But it is also this:

I began my search through Google and found that information on Israel and foreign aid can for the most part be traced back to http://www.wrmea.com/ .

Their page states the following:

Benefits to Israel of U.S. Aid Since 1949 (As of 11/1/97):
Foreign Aid Grants and Loans: $74,157,600,000
Other U.S. Aid (12.2% of Foreign Aid): $9,047,227,200
Interest to Israel from Advanced Payments: $1,650,000,000
Grand Total: $84,854,827,200
Total Benefits per Israeli: $14,630

Cost to U.S. Taxpayers of U.S. Aid to Israel:
Interest Costs Borne by U.S.: $49,936,680,000
Total Cost to U.S. Taxpayers: $134,791,507,200
Grand Total: $84,854,827,200
Total Cost per Israeli: $23,240

Warlady

09-16-2003, 06:25 AM

Timberwolf are you always this grumpy?

Powerboss are you Justaguy under another name? You sure sound like it?

I don't understand neocon or any other con. I'm an Ann Coulter, Michelle Malken, Barbara Olson conservative.

Naturalized-Texan

09-16-2003, 08:18 AM

You keep proving that you haven't the foggiest notion of what a neocon is. Neocons are conservatives. Period!

The_RANDy_Corporation

09-16-2003, 08:21 AM

Why are we doing this "neocon" thing again, and again, and again? I am beginning to suspect someone is poking a stick into the libertarians' cage just for a reaction. That is not what this forum is about.

paleo

09-16-2003, 08:23 AM

Good postings PB,
As I recall 99% of the US government aid to the Israelis
comes after 1967

I think that the 'dream world' of the neocon's is much closer to what Michael Ledeen describes, even advocates as Universal Fascism.

It is a global police state with the US military as the policeman, agreed,
however the police themselves are controlled and directed by a small, elite cabal of neocons.

If you go back to the post WW1 era in Europe the three basic political options
were democracy, communism and fascism. The neocon's revere the political
philosophy of Leo Strauss, a Jewish-German, atheist fascist.

However because of the anti-Semitism of the Nazi's strain of fascism
Strauss obviously had no future there. He emigrated to America bringing with him
the idea of this Universal Fascism, or Nazism minus the nationalism and anti-semitism.

Since American's clearly loved democracy and disliked Fascism,
Strauss resorted to code words.
Instead of saying elite cabal he said 'philosophers'.
Instead of calling the powerful people who could be manipulated by the cabal
dupes, he called them 'gentlemen'.

Then he could teach advanced political science, based on Plato's Republic,
where the uninitiated would take a superficial meaning
and not notice how fundamentally dangerous to democracy Strauss' ideas actually were.

Straussians then began to spread in academic circles and eventually dominated
the Political Science departments, then think tanks like PNAC and nowadays
America's foreign affairs.

One very important idea that Strauss borrowed from Plato was the concept of
the "Noble Lie". Plato thought the ruler sometimes needed lies to manipulate
the citizens into courses of action that were in their own best interest.

Strauss added to that the idea that the cabal ('philosophers') should also
employ "Noble Lies" to manipulate the ruler ('gentleman')
into a course of action that served the interests of the cabal itself.

This all seems dusty and academic until one sees it applied to current events.
No honorable member of the CIA could ever lie to the President.
It would be treason.

So in order to manipulate the President the Straussian neocons established their own 'Office of Special Plans'
to create useful lies disguised as intelligence.

Information from Ahmad Chalabi, who was considered completely discredited by the CIA and State Department,
was accepted at face value
by the special neocon group,
and then repeated by the President to the citizens.

In retrospect, the lack of WMDs in Iraq,
the forged Niger uranium documents,
Saddam's supposed backing of al Qaeda,
the infamous 'drones of death'
that could be launched in 45 minutes
according to Tony Blair's dodgy dossier,
the cakewalk victory and cheering reception that the Iraqis would
greet their liberators with..
well, they were lies.

The real question is whether they were Plato-style noble lies
or Strauss-style ignoble lies.

Very strongly allied with the neocons are Ariel Sharon's Likud Party
in Israel. On his wall Mr. Sharon has a picture of Vladimir Jabotinsky
whose roots, like Strauss, are in 1920's fascism.

Jabotinsky, after studies in Italy, created a revised form of Zionism where it was not enough that
Israel be an ordinary country like others, but that Israel should
be racially pure and geographically expansive.
Like Nazism this involves ethnic cleansing
except instead of the Aryans as a Master Race, it has Jews as the Chosen People.
Like Nazism it seeks to expand national borders by warfare.

Allied with Likud is the religious cult of Chabad-Lubovicher, an offshoot
of the Hassidic branch of Judaism.
Messianic, it believes that the rebirth
of the nation of Israel is the 'second coming' and Jews are now destined to rule the world.
They seem to take the infamous Protocols of the Elders of Zion
not as a goofy forged plagery of a parody of Napoleanic fascism,
but as a blueprint for the future.

Naturally in America there is much overlapping between Jewish 'conservatives', the Chabad Lubovicher cult and the neocons.

Strauss, although he was himself an atheist, and unlike Plato
did not believe in a hereafter,
recognized that religion could be a useful
tool in manipulating both gentlemen and citizens.

When President Bush misspeaks,
paleos are always very interested to know the
original source of the misinformation.
For example, the reference to the 126 Israelis who perished
in World Trade Center is factually wrong.

Even including Pentagon victims, plane passengers and people
with dual US-Israeli citizenship the total is still less than 10
actual Israelis. Of course there were a great number of Jews
so maybe he accidentally said Israelis when he meant Jews.

If not, one has to wonder: Who is lying to the President?

http://freeconservatives.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tinhat.gif

--paleo

Naturalized-Texan

09-16-2003, 08:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Timberwolf said:
**** your petty little labels...a conservative is a conservative. I'm sick and tired of your petty somantics that alienate conservatives and divide the conservative movement. Your "my way or the highway" bullshit is just that...bullshit...with a capital 'B'.

So please, STFU...

[/ QUOTE ]

That's exactly David Frum's point: Conservatives are conservatives.

Unfortunately, it was those who call themselves paleocons who are dividing the conservative movement. If you were informed, you would know that.

I'm sick and tired of those paleocons who oppose everything conservatives stand for and have aligned themselves with the far left, especially in their vehement opposition to the War on Terror. Even worse, paloecons are anti-Semitic and believe that people with darker skins are inferior and believe that the whole War on Terror was a sinister Jewish plot. Paleocons give us real conservatives a bad name.

Naturalized-Texan

09-16-2003, 08:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The_RANDy_Corporation said:
Why are we doing this "neocon" thing again, and again, and again? I am beginning to suspect someone is poking a stick into the libertarians' cage just for a reaction. That is not what this forum is about.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because left-wing media and their paleocon sycophants keep "blaming" the neocons for President Bush's strong actions in the War on Terror.

You see from what paleo and Powerboss wrote exactly what the paleocons are like. Multiply that by what we see in the left-wing media and you will understand why it's important to point out repeatedly that neocons are really nothing more than conservatives. As T-W pointed out: Conservatives are conservatives. It's the self-styled paleocons who are trying to help the left divide and conquer conservatives. We conservatives must never let that happen.

2nd_Amendment

09-16-2003, 08:41 AM

How is it that everyone who doesn't think like you is "uninformed" and in need of being "educated" or just a "leftist"?

Naturalized-Texan

09-16-2003, 08:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]
2nd_Amendment said:
How is it that everyone who doesn't think like you is "uninformed" and in need of being "educated" or just a "leftist"?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because they are!

Jason

09-16-2003, 08:52 AM

There really is no such nationality as "Israelis".
ID cards which, by law must be carried in Israel, list the nationalities of the holder as "Jewish" and "Arab" etc. None list a nationality of "Israeli".

All Jews have an automatic right to enter Israel, this automatic right being a form of citizenship. Thus all Jews, including those in America, have dual citizenship.

This has the unfortunate (for us) effect of creating dual loyalty.

If, for example, an American of Irish descent witnesses another American of Irish descent commiting an act of treason against America, the common ancestry between the two is highly unlikely to prevent the witness from turning in or testifying against the traitor.

If a Jew who is an American citizen witnesses another Jew commiting an act of treason against us (Johnathan Pollard for example), the first Jew would be commiting an act of treason against Jews (global nationality), and thus would be unlikely to turn him in or testify against him.

My definition of neocon is anyone who has embraced the redefinition of conservative which is a construct of mass media.

PeteS_in_CA

09-16-2003, 09:03 AM

So "Neo Cons" are all about Jewish this, Israel that, etc, etc, etc. If we just didn't allow Jews to affect our government and society to a degree out of proportion to their numbers in American society ... If we just would bail on Israel ...

Call me Neo Con, Fundie-Con, or @#$%-Con, such policy-panaceas are halucinatory chimaeras. If Jewish people vanished from Earth today and hadn't existed for a thousand years, we would have the same mess in the Middle East today, only the pretext would be different. OTOH, the yammerers of the Neo-Con-Conspiracy propaganda line have placed themselves in rather disreputable company - the wearers of white sheets, the wearers of swastikas, the Tsarist Russian secret police who concocted the "protocols of the Elders of Zion" hoax, the Spanish Inquisitionists, and the Medieval European haters of the Jews. Such folks' blindered focus on every nit of imperfect (in their eyes) action by Israel, while utterly ignoring the terror-war in which Israel has lived and their hatred of any US action that might remotely benefit Israel are persuading me that the association noted above may be more than coincidental.

2nd_Amendment

09-16-2003, 09:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Naturalized-Texan said:
[ QUOTE ]
2nd_Amendment said:
How is it that everyone who doesn't think like you is "uninformed" and in need of being "educated" or just a "leftist"?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because they are!

[/ QUOTE ]

That pretty well says it all. Thank you.

dPrasse

09-16-2003, 09:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]
2nd_Amendment said:
[ QUOTE ]
Naturalized-Texan said:
[ QUOTE ]
2nd_Amendment said:
How is it that everyone who doesn't think like you is "uninformed" and in need of being "educated" or just a "leftist"?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because they are!

[/ QUOTE ]

That pretty well says it all. Thank you.

[/ QUOTE ]

hey 2A ...maybe N-T has the phone to God that diane gave to Rad in the Fonda thread http://freeconservatives.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

http://freeconservatives.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/patriot.gif

Powerboss

09-16-2003, 10:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Powerboss are you Justaguy under another name? You sure sound like it?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. It is I. If you think I take joy in what I've stated above, I don't. My only goal is arriving at the truth, no matter where it leads.

I don't like having the wool pulled over my eyes either though.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand neocon or any other con. I'm an Ann Coulter, Michelle Malken, Barbara Olson conservative.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really like all of them as well.

Naturalized-Texan

09-16-2003, 10:38 AM

Powerboss

09-16-2003, 10:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Jason said:

My definition of neocon is anyone who has embraced the redefinition of conservative which is a construct of mass media.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me preface this by telling you that I consider myself a Goldwater/Reagan Conservative. Pretty much a Paleoconservative.

Are you telling me that Conservatism hasn't undergone a change?

Really?

Since when has conservatism called for expanding domestic spending at an unprecedented rate?
This is not even counting the war or war on terror.

Where are our "conservative" leaders on the culture war?

Where were they during the Alabama 10 commandments issue?

When did Sodomy become a federal issue?

The change is overwhelming, it's in front of us every day.

And this is just on the Domestic side.

Here is a link you all might enjoy:
http://www.csmonitor.com/specials/neocon/spheresInfluence.html

Taylor

09-16-2003, 11:15 AM

A conservative is a conservative plan and simple.

Powerboss

09-16-2003, 11:33 AM

That is silly.

Is George Bush a conservative?

Jason

09-16-2003, 11:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
PeteS_in_CA said:
If Jewish people vanished from Earth today and hadn't existed for a thousand years, we would have the same mess in the Middle East today, only the pretext would be different.

[/ QUOTE ]
Pete,
All our problems in the Middle East stem from our past and present support of Israel. Ad hominum attacks can't change that.

If China said that since America once belonged to Indians and that since Indians are Asian descendents, they claim California, Oregon and Washington as Asian territory, would we just politely scoot over to the East and let them have it? How can we blame the Arabs for hating us? We would be cowards if we didn't fight back, why should we expect them to be cowards?

Jason

09-16-2003, 11:55 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Powerboss said:
[ QUOTE ]
Jason said:

My definition of neocon is anyone who has embraced the redefinition of conservative which is a construct of mass media.

[/ QUOTE ]
Are you telling me that Conservatism hasn't undergone a change?

[/ QUOTE ]
You misunderstood me. I said that neoconservativism is a construct, meaning that media took conservatism and reconstructed it to the new definition we have now.

Naturalized-Texan

09-16-2003, 12:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Powerboss said:
Is George Bush a conservative?

[/ QUOTE ]

It depends on the issue. On foreign policy and national security, President Bush is definitely a conservative. Fiscally, he is a moderate except for his pro-growth tax cuts.

Naturalized-Texan

09-16-2003, 12:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Pete,
All our problems in the Middle East stem from our past and present support of Israel.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is complete nonsense. Our problems in the Middle East are totally due to the Middle East's jealousy of our success.

dPrasse

09-16-2003, 12:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Naturalized-Texan said:
[ QUOTE ]
Pete,
All our problems in the Middle East stem from our past and present support of Israel.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is complete nonsense. Our problems in the Middle East are totally due to the Middle East's jealousy of our success.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll agree with you on that point !
http://freeconservatives.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon16.gif

( the following is not directed at you N-T) .....

watch how you classify Reagan , though .
did he not raise some taxes as Gov. of CA ?
did he not support high tarrifs vs large Jap bikes to help Harley out ?
what of the Chrysler bail out with Fed $ ?
oh yes , and the grain embargo of wheat against the Russians for invading Afghanistan , at the same time he cleared the sale of IBM computers to Russia ...

even the "Father" of the rebirth of Conservatism can be labeled a Populist ....

dP
http://freeconservatives.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/patriot.gif

Jason

09-16-2003, 12:27 PM

DPrasse, NT,

You guys must believe everything the media tells you.

We were far more succesfull than the Arabs Prior to 1948 and we never had any hostility out of them up untill then.

Powerboss

09-16-2003, 12:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
That is complete nonsense. Our problems in the Middle East are totally due to the Middle East's jealousy of our success.

[/ QUOTE ]

BS. Certainly our success is part of it but you are in denial about Israel.

BTW, this is the problem that I've noticed among the two sides of "why they hate us", neither are willing to admit that both arguments have merit.

Osama bin Laden

March 29, 1997

"Today, the nation is interacting well by uniting its efforts through jihad against the US which has in collaboration with the Israeli government led the ferocious campaign against the Islamic World in occupying the holy sites of the Muslims."

AND

"It is he (Bill Clinton) who is a terrorist who pushed their sons into this for the sake of the Israeli interest. We believe that the American army in Saudi Arabia came to separate between the Muslims and the people for not ruling in accordance with Allah's wish. They came to be in support of the Israeli forces in occupied Palestine, the land of the "Israa" of our Prophet (PBUH)."

Estragon

09-16-2003, 12:32 PM

When I read those who spout neonazi jargon like Powerboss and paleo on the 1st page of this thread, it makes me want to embrace "neocon" or whatever label you choose if it means the opposite of them.

Of course neither Reagan nor Bush have governed as "picture-perfect" conservatives. Politics is the art of the possible, and compromise is necessary to get anything done. Reagan managed to get tax cuts put in place to keep our economy humming for decades, while rebuilding our defenses to the point that he bankrupted the Soviet Empire. Given those major accomplishments, I am more than willing to overlook his compromises on lesser issues.

Powerboss

09-16-2003, 12:36 PM

Wow. You sound just like a liberal. Neo Nazi. Im far from it but I do seek the truth, unlike you apparently who just wants everyone to fall in line and believe what your leaders tell you to believe.

Care to call me more names or refute my arguments?

Rink

09-16-2003, 01:01 PM

Jason, hate to tell you but after WW2 the Arabs were the inheritors of Hitler's legacy, they embraced him like a brother, and they have hated jews for a very long time, because afterwards they started expelling jews from their lands and confiscating their houses, and assets.

pogroms also was a fact of life with the old cannards present up to even this day that the jews made matzo from the blood of non-jews, which is hogwash and irrational backwards thinking.

You seem to think that America propped up israel just to piss the arabs off, I hate to tell you my dear AGAIN the Jewish Homeland was the DIRECT result of the Balfour Declaration, created and instituted by Lord Alfred Balfour who was a BRITISH Citizen, not an American, and during WW2 the brits were keeping the Jews OUT of Israel and Hyperinflating the arab population from all the moslem states in order to undercut the Balfour declaration, then let them loose after the UN voted on instituting the Balfour declaration and crating a jewish homeland

It just was not America alone that voted on making Israel a Nation, the Soviet Union also voted unanimously yes on the creation of the jewish state.

The state of Israel cannot be solely and squarely put on America's shoulders.

During the Arab/Israeli wars NOBODY helped Israel, they expected the jewish state to be short lived.

WHY? because everyone still wanted the jews to cease to exist as a people, what better way to do that than by having all jews go to israel or most of them and have them all slaughtered??

get your facts on straight man.

America alone isnt responsible for the institution and implementation of the Jewish state known as Israel.

Naturalized-Texan

09-16-2003, 01:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You guys must believe everything the media tells you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't believe anything the left-wing media tells me. However, since the paleocons have aligned themselves with the left-wing media in their attempt to divide and conquer us real conservatives, I don't believe anything the paleocons say either.

Naturalized-Texan

09-16-2003, 01:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Estragon said:
When I read those who spout neonazi jargon like Powerboss and paleo on the 1st page of this thread, it makes me want to embrace "neocon" or whatever label you choose if it means the opposite of them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Paleocons, with their racism and anti-Semitism, are the closest thing to the Nazis in America today. They remind me of George Lincoln Rockwell's American Nazi Party as follows:

On July 4, 1963, I attended the Draft Goldwater Rally in the DC National Guard Armory. As we were leaving the armory following the rally, there was a ring of Nazis in full regalia marching in a circle protesting against Goldwater carrying signs with vicious Anti-Semitic slogans like: "Goldwasser: Jew Race Mixer" etc. Surrounding the Nazis was a ring of DC police with dogs and surrounding the police was a ring of hundreds of shouting Goldwater supporters. That image is as clear in my mind as if it happened yesterday.

Later in the same year I was working out of our Arlington, VA, Branch Office on a contract with one of the "spook" agencies there. The quickest way from our office to the agency took us past a medium-sized white frame house that had a huge Nazi flag out front. Often, as I passed this house I would see men dressed in full Nazi uniforms with jack boots and Swastika armbands greeting each other by clicking their heels together and giving Nazi "Heil Hitler" salutes. I later learned that this house was the headquarters of the American Nazi Party and its Fuhrer, George Lincoln Rockwell. Those images are also as clear in my mind as if I had seen them yesterday.

Timberwolf

09-16-2003, 01:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Warlady said:
Timberwolf are you always this grumpy?

[/ QUOTE ]
Nope...just sick of and have had my fill of Tex's divisive "my way or no way" attitude.

Timberwolf

09-16-2003, 01:28 PM

Timberwolf

09-16-2003, 01:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Powerboss said:
That is silly.

Is George Bush a conservative?

[/ QUOTE ]
Not really...he's more of a moderate. Actually his fiscal expansion of the federal bureaucracy is quite alarmingly liberal.

Naturalized-Texan

09-16-2003, 01:36 PM

It's not my fault that on so many subjects you don't know what you are talking about.

2nd_Amendment

09-16-2003, 02:06 PM

*edited to keep the peace*

Jason

09-16-2003, 02:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Estragon said:
When I read those who spout neonazi jargon
Politics is the art of the possible, and compromise is necessary to get anything done.

[/ QUOTE ]
Any entity who can have any opposition to their misdeeds squelched by using a powerful psychological word like "nazi" is a powerful entity, indeed.

Yes, politics is an art of the possible, but isn't it the media who determines what is possible? They made it possible for Clinton to sell military secrets to China and cover up all his criminal dealings in Arkansas by drawing all attention to the Monica Lewinsky affair. All the sheep, both left and right, focused on blowjobs and ignored what was important.
But if Bush did anything about rampant immigration they would have painted him a racist.

Jason

09-16-2003, 02:40 PM

All of you who defend Israel,
Are your loyalties with America or the Jews?

With all the great many acts of aggression by the Jews against America how can you turn a blind eye in the name of political correctness?

Naturalized-Texan

09-16-2003, 02:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Jason said:
All of you who defend Israel,
Are your loyalties with America or the Jews?

[/ QUOTE ]

Supporting Israel is vital to American interests, so supporting Israel is being loyal to the United States.

Naturalized-Texan

09-16-2003, 02:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
*edited to keep the peace*

[/ QUOTE ]

To whomever edited 2A's post:

Why didn't you edit out Timberwolf's post where he used the F-word that started all of today's nastyness? It seems that 2A, TW, and Carl want to be able to start in with the nastyness and ad hominem attacks, but when anyone dares to respond to those attacks they start whining.

This will probably get edited out, but I want the person who edited 2A's post to know where it started.

Powerboss

09-16-2003, 03:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Supporting Israel is vital to American interests, so supporting Israel is being loyal to the United States.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

What has Israel done for the US besides the things that I've stated in my original post?
Why should we be loyal to them after their treachory to us?

If what I've stated is wrong in my originial post, then refute it.
It seems as though you are unable to and resorting to the same tactics of liberals and Jesse Jackasson by name calling and playing the antisemite/nazi card.

Its sad actually, because I didn't think "conservative's" could be as absolutely blind as liberals and use the same playbook when faced with facts.

And please. 3 months ago I was a big Israel defender as well, (I can provide you with mountains of evidence if you doubt me), they could do no wrong, but since then I've had my eyes opened up, so your pathetic name calling is not only juvinile but sorely incorrect.

2nd_Amendment

09-16-2003, 03:40 PM

I edited my post. I edited it because the harmony of the board is more important than my ever broadening disdain for you. The reason TW's post has not been edited is because even your defenders recognize how far outside of common sense you are going to provoke to anger those who disagree with you. The only real question is WHY you feel the need, or the right, to do it.

2nd_Amendment

09-16-2003, 03:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Naturalized-Texan said:
[ QUOTE ]
Jason said:
All of you who defend Israel,
Are your loyalties with America or the Jews?

[/ QUOTE ]

Supporting Israel is vital to American interests, so supporting Israel is being loyal to the United States.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, Israel is NOT vital to US interests. At this point in history Israel is far more of a liability in the global scheme of things than it is an asset. The REAL reason to support Israel is because the Bible says to. Those nations which turn their back on Israel reap the negative results. God's Word on the subject is more than good enough for me, but He doesn't insist we cover the reality in platitudes.

Israel is a nation of atheists and, at times, Christian Haters. It is plagued with Socialist tendencies and ego driven foolishness. However, it has the right to exist and we are honor bound to aid them. None of that in any way indicates it's in our best earthly interest to carry their often dead weight.

Naturalized-Texan

09-16-2003, 03:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Why?

[/ QUOTE ]

Israel is our only dependable ally in the Middle East; the only democracy in the Middle East; and a bastion against terrorism.

In fact, we should give Israel our complete support, short of providing troops, and encouragement to defeat militarily the PLO and drive the Palestinians out of the Jewish homeland which is the entire West Bank. That is the only way to have peace in Israel and would go a long way toward eliminating the terrorist threat to the United States from that part of the World.

As for the race/anti-Semite card - paloecons have a long record of racism and anti-Semitism. Pat Buchanan is only one of several examples. The proof can be found <a href=http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=6818>here</a>

Naturalized-Texan

09-16-2003, 03:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
2nd_Amendment said:
I edited my post. I edited it because the harmony of the board is more important than my ever broadening disdain for you. The reason TW's post has not been edited is because even your defenders recognize how far outside of common sense you are going to provoke to anger those who disagree with you. The only real question is WHY you feel the need, or the right, to do it.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's sad that you can't recognize that you, TW, and Carl are the ones who started all the nastyness among us with your ad hominem attacks. I shouldn't have responded in kind, but, unfortunately, I did. I'll never be able to come around to your positions on the issues because they are wrong, wrong, wrong. As in oracle's Rumsfeld quote: "Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, but they're not entitled to their own facts."

Powerboss

09-16-2003, 04:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Israel is our only dependable ally in the Middle East; the only democracy in the Middle East; and a bastion against terrorism.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does an ally bomb US Navy ships? USS LIBERTY
Does an Ally stage a terrorist attack and try to blame it on another country? OPERATION SUZANNAH/THE LAVON AFFAIR

If Israel is a democracy then why are the palestininans that live in Israel get treated like 2nd class citizens?

What does it matter if there is a democracy in the middle east?

Bastion against terrorism? Please. You should read up on Ariel Sharon. He is just as much a terrorist as Ararat is.

[ QUOTE ]
In fact, we should give Israel our complete support, short of providing troops, and encouragement to defeat militarily the PLO and drive the Palestinians out of the Jewish homeland which is the entire West Bank. That is the only way to have peace in Israel and would go a long way toward eliminating the terrorist threat to the United States from that part of the World.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unbelieveable.
Don't the Palestinians also have some claim to this land?
You think by getting rid of the Palestinians there will be peace? LOL.
You think the US supporting that insane action would lessen terrorism against the US? LOL.
You are kidding, right?
If you are not then you need to back these statements up more because it complete BS.
I've posted a couple of OBL's comments on Israel, it is well known the arab/muslim world hates Israel, so please explain how eliminating the Palestininans will make things better for everyone.

And how do you propose to get rid of the Palestinians? Sounds to me like the comparison to Nazi that you've given to me is ill placed.

[ QUOTE ]
As for the race/anti-Semite card - paloecons have a long record of racism and anti-Semitism. Pat Buchanan is only one of several examples. The proof can be found here

[/ QUOTE ]

Well gosh, You've linked to an editorial from what is largely considered a Neo Con website.
I do like FPM btw and read it all the time. Sometimes I agree with them, sometimes they are dead wrong.

You are engaging in the same demonization that liberals do.

Perhaps you are not really a conservative or as conservative as you think you are because your arguments which you have not been able to back up, your lack of refuting my arguments, your name calling, your demonizing are all traits of liberals.
Better check that out there fella and do a self test of some type.

Powerboss

09-16-2003, 04:02 PM

And please, I've asked you this already;

What has Israel done for the US?
Why should we be loyal to them after their treachory to us?

There is nothing antisemitic or nazi like about these two questions.
Please answer them.

2nd_Amendment

09-16-2003, 04:10 PM

It's sad that you can't recognize that you, TW, and Carl are the ones who started all the nastyness among us with your ad hominem attacks.

Your opinion, not generally accepted as very reliable.

I shouldn't have responded in kind, but, unfortunately, I did.

Oh goodness did you ever.

I'll never be able to come around to your positions on the issues

That's fine, you're entitled to your opinion.

because they are wrong, wrong, wrong.

Here's where you are having a problem: THAT is also your opinion. Judging by the sheer number of opponents you have aquired here it's safe to say a minority opinion. You need to recognize that is all it is and you are not qualified to educate anyone here, especially considering your arrogant, Holier-Than-Thou attitude.

As in oracle's Rumsfeld quote: "Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, but they're not entitled to their own facts."

The problem arises when you insist that only you have the facts.

Warlady

09-16-2003, 05:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
dPrasse said:
[ QUOTE ]
Naturalized-Texan said:
[ QUOTE ]
Pete,
All our problems in the Middle East stem from our past and present support of Israel.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is complete nonsense. Our problems in the Middle East are totally due to the Middle East's jealousy of our success.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll agree with you on that point !
http://freeconservatives.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon16.gif

( the following is not directed at you N-T) .....

watch how you classify Reagan , though .
did he not raise some taxes as Gov. of CA ?
did he not support high tarrifs vs large Jap bikes to help Harley out ?
what of the Chrysler bail out with Fed $ ?
oh yes , and the grain embargo of wheat against the Russians for invading Afghanistan , at the same time he cleared the sale of IBM computers to Russia ...

even the "Father" of the rebirth of Conservatism can be labeled a Populist ....

dP
http://freeconservatives.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/patriot.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

That was a loan to Chrysler and they paid it back with interest.

Jason

09-16-2003, 06:39 PM

dPrasse

09-16-2003, 07:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Jason said:
DPrasse, NT,

You guys must believe everything the media tells you.

We were far more succesfull than the Arabs Prior to 1948 and we never had any hostility out of them up untill then.

[/ QUOTE ]

after '48 , well duh ! Arabs hate Jews , so , yes ,
anyone that supported the formation of a Jewish state become the "enemy" ...
the Palestinians are the bastard children of the Arab world ..they were to have set up camp in Jordan .... basically , nobody wants their "Palestinian bretheren" in their land ....

dP

dPrasse

09-16-2003, 07:51 PM

Rink ,

you go girl !

http://freeconservatives.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/patriot.gif

dPrasse

09-16-2003, 07:56 PM

That was a loan to Chrysler and they paid it back with interest.

I stand , or , sit corrected ......

thank you .....

http://freeconservatives.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tinhat.gif

dP

Jason

09-16-2003, 08:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
dPrasse said:
[ QUOTE ]
after '48 , well duh ! Arabs hate Jews , so , yes ,
anyone that supported the formation of a Jewish state become the "enemy" ...
the Palestinians are the bastard children of the Arab world ..they were to have set up camp in Jordan .... basically , nobody wants their "Palestinian bretheren" in their land ....

[/ QUOTE ]
So you agree that the "jealousy of our success" is not the factor causing Arabs to hate us?

Naturalized-Texan

09-16-2003, 08:47 PM

Well you are certainly entitled to your opinions. Unfortunately, your opinion on the Patriot Act are diametrically opposed to the facts.

[ QUOTE ]
Judging by the sheer number of opponents you have aquired here it's safe to say a minority opinion. You need to recognize that is all it is and you are not qualified to educate anyone here, especially considering your arrogant, Holier-Than-Thou attitude.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have acquired many more proponents here than opponents. Fortunately, those proponents are people I have great respect for and opponents like you aren't worthy of my respect.

BTW, you have no room to talk about a holier-than-thou attitude. You can't stand to have anyone challenge your opinions with facts. As soon as you are challenged with facts, you go into full ad hominem attack mode instead of debating.

Powerboss

09-16-2003, 08:57 PM

Care to answer my questions?

paleo

09-16-2003, 09:00 PM

NT: "...drive the Palestinians out of the Jewish homeland which is the entire West Bank. That is the only way to have peace in Israel..."

NT, are you aware that 'ethnic cleansing' is a crime against humanity
according to International Law--treaties the USA has signed?

You're confusing me. Who are the supposed Nazis here?

http://freeconservatives.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tinhat.gif http://freeconservatives.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tinhat.gif http://freeconservatives.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tinhat.gif http://freeconservatives.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tinhat.gif http://freeconservatives.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tinhat.gif http://freeconservatives.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tinhat.gif http://freeconservatives.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tinhat.gif http://freeconservatives.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tinhat.gif http://freeconservatives.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tinhat.gif

--paleo

Naturalized-Texan

09-16-2003, 09:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Judging by the sheer number of opponents you have aquired here it's safe to say a minority opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't realize that this forum was a popularity contest. If I had known that, I could have agreed with everyone on every topic and everyone would have loved me. However, doing that would have forced me to violate my conservative principles and I could never do that.

I don't care if I'm in the minority (I'm not) and I don't even care if I'm a minority of one because I know that I have the truth on my side and I am able to keep to my conservative principles. That's all that matters.

2nd_Amendment

09-16-2003, 09:57 PM

Well you are certainly entitled to your opinions. Unfortunately, your opinion on the Patriot Act are diametrically opposed to the facts.

Hardly, as I have shown.

I have acquired many more proponents here than opponents.

As this and most of the other threads you have engaged in have shown, eh?

Fortunately, those proponents are people I have great respect for and opponents like you aren't worthy of my respect.

You have made it abundantly clear you disrespect anyone who disagrees with you.

BTW, you have no room to talk about a holier-than-thou attitude. You can't stand to have anyone challenge your opinions with facts. As soon as you are challenged with facts, you go into full ad hominem attack mode instead of debating.

Actually I have buried you in links, economic, employment/manufacturing and the PA and your replies are always to ignore the facts, attack the messenger and, as in the case of manufacturing, simply drop the subject.

2nd_Amendment

09-16-2003, 10:00 PM

I didn't realize that this forum was a popularity contest.

It's not.

If I had known that, I could have agreed with everyone on every topic and everyone would have loved me.

No, you could have disagreed without calling every single person who opposes you ignorant, in need of education, a leftist, etc. Then everyone might at least have respected you.

However, doing that would have forced me to violate my conservative principles and I could never do that.

Being rational would violate your principles? Frankly I don't believe you have any.

I don't care if I'm in the minority (I'm not)

Looks around all of your threads...raises eyebrow

and I don't even care if I'm a minority of one because I know that I have the truth on my side and I am able to keep to my conservative principles. That's all that matters.

Once again you speak volumes without having the slightest clue of the irony...

Powerboss

09-16-2003, 10:25 PM

Kristol Confesses: Neoconservatism Is Not Conservative
By Sam Francis

It tells us a great deal about what is known as "neoconservatism" that more than 30 years after the term became fashionable, those who adhere to it still need to explain it. The latest explanation appears in the Aug. 25 Weekly Standard in an article entitled "The Neoconservative Persuasion: What it was and what it is" by neoconservative elder Irving Kristol.

Often called the "godfather of neoconservatism," Mr. Kristol virtually invented both the term and the movement it represents, and given the bad press neoconservatism has enjoyed in recent months, yet another attempt to explain it was probably a good idea.

You can read the rest of this article here:
http://www.vdare.com/francis/neos.htm

Zeus

09-16-2003, 11:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Powerboss said:
[ QUOTE ]
Supporting Israel is vital to American interests, so supporting Israel is being loyal to the United States.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

What has Israel done for the US besides the things that I've stated in my original post?
Why should we be loyal to them after their treachory to us?

If what I've stated is wrong in my originial post, then refute it.
It seems as though you are unable to and resorting to the same tactics of liberals and Jesse Jackasson by name calling and playing the antisemite/nazi card.

Its sad actually, because I didn't think "conservative's" could be as absolutely blind as liberals and use the same playbook when faced with facts.

And please. 3 months ago I was a big Israel defender as well, (I can provide you with mountains of evidence if you doubt me), they could do no wrong, but since then I've had my eyes opened up, so your pathetic name calling is not only juvinile but sorely incorrect.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't put all that much faith in snopes.com Powerboss,they are a urban legend debunker cite not a historical archive http://freeconservatives.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif yep basically everythink you said about Isreal is debunked on snopes ,sorry to burst yer bubble but you did say you are only interested in the truth right ?

Timberwolf

09-16-2003, 11:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Naturalized-Texan said:
Well you are certainly entitled to your opinions. Unfortunately, your opinion on the Patriot Act are diametrically opposed to the facts.

[ QUOTE ]
Judging by the sheer number of opponents you have aquired here it's safe to say a minority opinion. You need to recognize that is all it is and you are not qualified to educate anyone here, especially considering your arrogant, Holier-Than-Thou attitude.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have acquired many more proponents here than opponents. Fortunately, those proponents are people I have great respect for and opponents like you aren't worthy of my respect.

BTW, you have no room to talk about a holier-than-thou attitude. You can't stand to have anyone challenge your opinions with facts. As soon as you are challenged with facts, you go into full ad hominem attack mode instead of debating.

[/ QUOTE ]
*cough* *cough* <font size="1">bullshit!!</font> *cough* *cough*

The sad thing is, Tex, that YOU are the one that began the whole mess with your demeaning, condescending, "my way or no way" attitude and your holier-than-thou announcements about educating those of us that have a far greater grasp of conservatism than you do.

btw - you REALLY ought to read PowerBoss's posted article concerning "neo-conservatism" by the man who is the father of the movement. It's QUITE enlightening.

Timberwolf

09-16-2003, 11:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Powerboss said:
Care to answer my questions?

[/ QUOTE ]
Of course he doesn't care to answer your questions...he's avoiding you like the plague.

Zeus

09-16-2003, 11:40 PM

Did any of y'all ever see the Movie "Groundhog Day" with Bill Murray ?

Timberwolf

09-16-2003, 11:54 PM

Um...yeah, saw it...relevence to the discussion??

Powerboss

09-17-2003, 12:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Zeus said:

I wouldn't put all that much faith in snopes.com Powerboss,they are a urban legend debunker cite not a historical archive http://freeconservatives.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif yep basically everythink you said about Isreal is debunked on snopes ,sorry to burst yer bubble but you did say you are only interested in the truth right ?

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont know what snopes is but if you would care to debunk anything I've stated, by all means do so.

Zeus

09-17-2003, 01:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Powerboss said:
[ QUOTE ]
Zeus said:

I wouldn't put all that much faith in snopes.com Powerboss,they are a urban legend debunker cite not a historical archive http://freeconservatives.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif yep basically everythink you said about Isreal is debunked on snopes ,sorry to burst yer bubble but you did say you are only interested in the truth right ?

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont know what snopes is but if you would care to debunk anything I've stated, by all means do so.

[/ QUOTE ]

debunked (http://snopes.com/)

Zeus

09-17-2003, 01:25 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Timberwolf said:
Um...yeah, saw it...relevence to the discussion??

[/ QUOTE ]

relax,it was a joke.

In Groundhogs Day wasn't the same set of events repeated over & over again ? Kinda like the pissin' contest between you ,2A,a couple others & NT ? http://freeconservatives.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon127.gif

Powerboss

09-17-2003, 01:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Zeus said:

debunked (http://snopes.com/)

[/ QUOTE ]

Forgive me, I took a look and didn't find anything relevant.
Perhaps I was looking in the wrong place.

Kindly show me where specifically, or feel free to expand on your own.

Powerboss

09-17-2003, 01:42 AM

Ah, I found one link regarding Israel 9/11

Basically, the commentary looked like opinion and nothing more.

I did not state that Israel told 4000 jews to stay home from work.

I did say that only 1 Israeli citizen died in the WTC.

If anyone can prove or disprove it, by all means please do so and I will happily admit my error.

You seem to think I have an axe to grind. I don't. I am merely trying to get the truth.

arthur d

09-17-2003, 03:22 AM

To the "truth seeker(s)":

Dear World,

It appears that you are hard to please. I understand that you are upset over us here in Israel. Indeed, it appears that you are quite upset, even angry and outraged. Indeed, every few years you seem to become upset over us. Today, it is the brutal repression of the Palestinians; yesterday, it was Lebanon; before that it was the bombing of the nuclear reactor in Baghdad and the Yom Kippur War campaign. It appears that Jews who triumph, and who therefore, live, upset you most extraordinarily.

Of course, dear world, long before there was an Israel, we the Jewish people upset you. We upset a German people, who elected a Hitler and we upset an Austrian people, who cheered his entry into Vienna and we upset a whole slew of Slavic nations - Poles, Slovaks, Lithuanians, Ukrainians, Russians, Hungarians, Romanians.

And we go back a long, long way in history of world upset. We upset the Cossacks of Chmielnicki, who massacred tens of thousands of us in 1648-49; we upset the Crusaders, who on their way to liberate the Holy Land, were so upset at Jews that they slaughtered untold numbers of us. We upset, for centuries, a Roman Catholic Church that did its best to define our relationship through Inquisitions. And we upset the arch-enemy of the church, Martin Luther, who in his call to burn the synagogues and the Jews within them, showed an admirable Christian ecumenical spirit.

It is because we became so upset over upsetting you, dear world, that we decided to leave you - in a manner of speaking - and establish a Jewish State. The reasoning was that living in close contact with you, as resident-strangers in the various countries that comprise you, we upset you, irritate you, and disturb you. What better notion, then, than to leave you and thus love you - and have you love us? And so we decided to come home, to the same homeland from which we were driven out 1,900 years earlier by a Roman world that, apparently, we also upset.

Alas, dear world, it appears that you are hard to please. Having left you and your Pogroms and Inquisitions and Crusades and Holocausts, having taken our leave of the general world to live alone in our own little state, we continue to upset you.

You are upset that we repress the Palestinians. You are deeply angered over the fact that we do not give up the lands of 1967, which are clearly the obstacle to peace in the Middle East. Moscow is upset and Washington is upset. The Arabs are upset and the gentle Egyptian moderates are upset.

Well, dear world, consider the reaction of a normal Jew from Israel. In 1920, 1921 and 1929, there were no territories of 1967 to impede peace between Jews and Arabs. Indeed, there was no Jewish State to upset anybody. Nevertheless, the same oppressed and repressed Palestinians slaughtered hundreds of Jews in Jerusalem, Jaffa, Safed and Hebron. Indeed, 67 Jews were slaughtered one day in Hebron in 1929.

Dear world, why did the Arabs - the Palestinians - massacre 67 Jews in one day in 1929? Could it have been their anger over Israeli aggression in 1967? And why were 510 Jewish men, women and children slaughtered in Arab riots in 1936-39? Was it because of Arab upset over 1967? And when you, World, proposed a U.N. Partition Plan in 1947 that would have created a Palestinian State alongside a tiny Israel and the Arabs cried and went to war and killed 6,000 Jews - was that upset stomach caused by the aggression of 1967? And, by the way, dear world, why did we not hear your cry of upset then?

The Palestinians who today kill Jews with explosives and firebombs and stones are part of the same people who - when they had all the territories they now demand be given them for their state - attempted to drive the Jewish State into the sea. The same twisted faces, the same hate, the same cry of "idbah-al-yahud" - "Slaughter the Jews!" that we hear and see today, were seen and heard then. The same people, the same dream - destroy Israel.

What they failed to do yesterday, they dream of today - but we should not "repress" them. Dear world, you stood by the Holocaust and you stood by in 1948 as seven states launched a war that the Arab League proudly compared to the Mongol massacres. You stood by in 1967 as Nasser, wildly cheered by wild mobs in every Arab capital in the world, vowed to drive the Jews into the sea. And you would stand by tomorrow if Israel were facing extinction.

And since we know that the Arabs-Palestinians daily dream of that extinction, we will do everything possible to remain alive in our own land. If that bothers you, dear world, well - think of how many times in the past you bothered us.

In any event, dear world, if you are bothered by us, here is one Jew in Israel who could not care less.

Jason

09-17-2003, 05:52 AM

Arthur D,
So, why is it neccessary for Jews to go around the world upsetting people? Is it not the Jews who are hard to please?

Americans go to Germany and rescue you from the mess you had gotten yourselves into, so to show your gratitude you commandeer all our mass media and entertainment industry and undermine our culture by promoting feminism, homosexuality, communism, race mixing and gun control (which NT thinks are vital to US interests). Why don't you promote these things in Israel and leave us alone?

We send you FOUR BILLION BUCKS a year and you send us Jonathan Pollard to spy on us.

You help Clinton sell our military secrets to China.

You use your media influence to promote politicians who will act on your behalf at America's expense. You smear any who are wise to your tricks. You give our politicians favorable media coverage in exchange for key positions in government.

Anyone who speaks out against these things gets labeled "anti-semite" and "neo-nazi" . If you didn't commit these acts of aggression against us you wouldn't have to hide behind these labels and play the victim.

If Americans were in Israel doing these stunts would you not be getting a little hot under the collar, Arthur? Hmmmm?

Warlady

09-17-2003, 08:04 AM

Jason you are blaming the Jews for Hitler's slaughter? Conservatives don't blame the victims of crime. They blame the criminal. How are Jews promoting homosexuality? Communism? (They are a Democracy) Race mixing? I don't believe they believe in that one at all. As a matter of fact they frown on Jews marrying outside their race. How did Israel help Clinton sell secrets to China? He accomplished that one on his own. Read up on Chinagate. What is wrong with promoting politicians who will act on their best interests, which is survival btw? Wouldn't you work to elect politicians in your area that would act on your best interests? I think the question to you Jason is why are you defending Arabs who danced in the streets on 911? Hmmmm?

Warlady

09-17-2003, 08:04 AM

Excellent post arthur d.

Naturalized-Texan

09-17-2003, 08:20 AM

My wife was right.

I often thought about running for political office. Every time I mentioned this to my wife she would tell me that I was too honest to be a politician; that I was too much like Barry Goldwater - I would tell people what they needed to hear and not what they wanted to hear.

That is what is happening in this forum. I'm telling people what they need to hear, not what they want to hear. That's why I have experienced in microcosm the hate communications that David Frum received after he accurately described paleocons as <a href=http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=6818>Unpatriotic Conservatives</a>.

However, I can rest secure in the knowledge that the vast majority of those with whom I disagree in this forum represent an infinitesimal minority who are so far out on the fringe that they couldn't even see the real world with the Hubble Space Telescope.

[ QUOTE ]
Actually I have buried you in links, economic, employment/manufacturing and the PA and your replies are always to ignore the facts, attack the messenger and, as in the case of manufacturing, simply drop the subject.

[/ QUOTE ]

No you haven't. I'm the one who has swamped you with links on those subjects that prove conclusively that your opinions on those subjects are diametrically opposed to the truth.

Jason

09-17-2003, 08:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Warlady said:
How are Jews promoting homosexuality? Communism? (They are a Democracy) Race mixing? As a matter of fact they frown on Jews marrying outside their race. How did Israel help Clinton sell secrets to China? He accomplished that one on his own. What is wrong with promoting politicians who will act on their best interests, which is survival btw? Wouldn't you work to elect politicians in your area that would act on your best interests?

[/ QUOTE ]Good Questions,Warlady,
To which I will give good answers.
The majority of "mainstream" fag activists are Jews: Larry Kramer, Arnie Kantrowitz, Barrett Brick and Alan Klein.
Almost all mainstream feminists are Jews: Bella Abzug, Betty Friedan, Gloria Steinem, Gloria Allred, etc. This is called "divide and conquer".
Yes, you are right Jews frown on Jews marrying outside their race. Miscegenation is for White folks. It went over everyone's head the last several times I posted it so I'll post it again:

"We must realize that our party's most powerful weapon is racial tensions. By propounding into the consciousness of the dark races that for centuries they have been oppressed by whites, we can mold them to the program of the Communist Party. In America we will aim for subtle victory. While inflaming the Negro minority against the whites, we will endeavor to instill in the whites a guilt complex for their exploitation of the Negroes. We will aid the Negroes to rise in prominence in every walk of life, in the professions and in the world of sports and entertainment. With this prestige, the Negro will be able to intermarry with the whites and begin a process which will deliver America to our cause."
Israel Cohen, A Racial Program for the Twentieth Century, 1912. Also in the Congressional Record, Vol. 103, p. 8559, June 7, 1957

Do you think it was a coincidence they chiseled "give us your wretched refuse" in our statue of liberty? Do you think it was a coincidence they played a dominant role in the passage of the 1965 immigration act which flooded America with third worlders? Do you think it's a coincidence that almost every time race mixing is promoted in advertizing or TV programming a Jew is behind it?

Is it a coincidence that nine of the Hollywood ten indicted for promoting communism in the 50's were Jews?

Of course it's wrong for American Jews to use their influence to promote the interests of Israel over those of the US. It's called treason.

Given the Jewish domination of our media and intelligence sectors, I really see no convincing proof that Arabs engineered the 9-11 attack. After all it's in Jewish interests to impose totalitarian measures on the masses and this attack has served their interests tremendously, it's time to wake up. Jews are the master race and the dominant world power.

Jason

09-17-2003, 08:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Naturalized-Texan said:I often thought about running for political office. Every time I mentioned this to my wife she would tell me that I was too honest to be a politician; that I was too much like Barry Goldwater - I would tell people what they needed to hear and not what they wanted to hear.

That is what is happening in this forum. I'm telling people what they need to hear, not what they want to hear. That's why I have experienced in microcosm the hate communications that David Frum received after he accurately described paleocons as Unpatriotic Conservatives

[/ QUOTE ]"too honest" LOL
David Frum is Jewish and methinks N.T. is too. Your posts are very consistent with Jewish interests.

Warlady

09-17-2003, 09:01 AM

"I really see no convincing proof that Arabs engineered the 9-11 attack."

Man Jason you need to join the tin foil beanie club.

Jason

09-17-2003, 09:31 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Warlady said:
"I really see no convincing proof that Arabs engineered the 9-11 attack."

Man Jason you need to join the tin foil beanie club.

[/ QUOTE ]Warlady,
I wont get angry for your ad hominen remarks. I am accustomed to the kind of reactions one gets when challenging someone's long held beliefs/values.

Let's look at the facts:
The Jews control most of the mass media in the world.
The Jews dominate our defense and intelligence community.

Given those two facts is it really illogical to suspect that Jews might have fudged things a bit?

History is written primarily by media. If a historian claims that the official version is false, he is automatically labeled a paranoid conspiracy theorist.
I think you should take a few moments to ponder the power of media.

"he who determines the past determines the future"

Warlady

09-17-2003, 09:36 AM

Did the media force the 19 Arabs to fly airplanes into the WTC buildings on 911? I think not. You are quite misguided. Perhaps you should ponder seeing a shrink.

dPrasse

09-17-2003, 09:52 AM

Jason , are you really that stupid or are you just a troll trying to get a rise outta folks with your anti-semitic remarks ?

Jason

09-17-2003, 09:59 AM

Warlady,
Using the term "misguided" suggests your conclusions are based on guidance. Mine aren't. The Jews are the ones in a position to guide our thoughts.

How do you know there were Arabs in the jets? Because they told you so?

The Jews have people in key positions. CIA Director Tenet is a Jew. So is Wolfowitz and Pearle and Chertoff.

I don't claim that the Arabs didn't do it but I can certainly see that the investigation could have been fudged. Immediately following the attacks the Jewish media convinced us that "Islamic trrorists" did it. Do you think anyone would listen to one or two investigators claiming foul play within the administration?

In any case, the Jews had the most to gain from the attacks, not the Arabs.

Wyatt_Junker

09-17-2003, 10:08 AM

[ QUOTE ]
So, why is it neccessary for Jews to go around the world upsetting people? Is it not the Jews who are hard to please?

Americans go to Germany and rescue you from the mess you had gotten yourselves into, so to show your gratitude you commandeer all our mass media and entertainment industry and undermine our culture by promoting feminism, homosexuality, communism, race mixing and gun control (which NT thinks are vital to US interests). Why don't you promote these things in Israel and leave us alone?

[/ QUOTE ]

(speaking in regards to the Jews, aka the "you")...

"Americans go to Germany and rescue you from the mess you had gotten yourselves into..."

When performing an exorcism it is necessary to strip back the layers of pretense until the undiluted, demonic kernel exposes itself. This may take years, months, weeks, days or seconds, or in this case just 131 anonymous posts at a BB site. Here we see the true Jason, apart from his prior gamesmanship of apologetics. Here, in this one sentence, we see his demon.

May the Lord have mercy on you for sticking your finger into the apple of his eye.

Peachdiane

09-17-2003, 10:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Naturalized-Texan said:I often thought about running for political office. Every time I mentioned this to my wife she would tell me that I was too honest to be a politician; that I was too much like Barry Goldwater

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh please! Goldwater? Let me tell you more about him:

He hobnobbed with known Mafia thugs, ran shady citrus farms, exploited illegal aliens and were linked to land deals that stank to high heaven.

My dad was one day away from exposing a story on Barry and his brother Bob's land fraud when dad was bombed in his car. Pieces of his flesh were found up to 10 feet away from the blast. Mom and I remember him hunched over the table, footnoting and documenting all the mafia connections to Goldwater that he tied together.

Reporters soon began publishing a series of stories incriminating the Goldwaters in newspapers across the country. And during one of dad's many trials I watched as Howard Woodall, a surprise witness, testified that dad was killed in part because he'd uncovered evidence of a loan swindle involving Kemper Marley, Harry Rosenzweig and Barry and Robert Goldwater. One of the convicted killers made the same claim in a police affidavit. A witness also said that Goldwater made five phone calls to attorney Neal Roberts just before and just after dad's bombing.

Barry Goldwater consistently dodged interviews with reporters too.

So you'll excuse me while I http://freeconservatives.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon120.gif at his ''honesty." The nice thing about having memories is that you can pick and choose.

Jason

09-17-2003, 10:17 AM

Wyatt,
Here in Texas we say 'yall and up north they say "youze guys" . I certainly understand that all Jews are not involved in the conspiracy, but they being in a position to know, do and say nothing, which is why I don't waste much effort in excluding them from accusations.

In any case, all you have contributed to the discussion is ad hominem.

Wyatt_Junker

09-17-2003, 10:35 AM

Your head is doing three sixties.

And you're projectile vomiting pea soup.

like this.... http://freeconservatives.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon120.gif

You ad hom the Jews.

Why shouldn't I ad hom you?

Fair is fair.

Jason

09-17-2003, 10:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Wyatt_Junker said:
Your head is doing three sixties.

And you're projectile vomiting pea soup.

like this.... http://freeconservatives.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon120.gif

You ad hom the Jews.

Why shouldn't I ad hom you?

Fair is fair.

[/ QUOTE ] When two people have a discussion about politics and one makes a personal attack against the other, it's ad hominun.
When two people have a discussion about politics and one criticises the other's party, group, whatever it's not an ad hominum attack. How can people discuss poitics if they don't criticise anyone?

Radical-Conservative

09-17-2003, 11:32 AM

He was a RINO anyway

Naturalized-Texan

09-17-2003, 11:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Radical-Conservative said:
He was a RINO anyway

[/ QUOTE ]

Only after he married a flaming liberal in his later life. When he wrote Conscience of a Conservative and when he ran for president, he was a radical-conservative.

Warlady

09-17-2003, 12:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
dPrasse said:
Jason , are you really that stupid or are you just a troll trying to get a rise outta folks with your anti-semitic remarks ?

[/ QUOTE ]

It would be nice if the latter were the case but I have a feeling he's really that stupid. Blind, misinformed and/or misguided.

Estragon

09-17-2003, 12:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
dPrasse said:
Jason , are you really that stupid or are you just a troll trying to get a rise outta folks with your anti-semitic remarks ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, he's really that stupid.

Jason

09-17-2003, 12:46 PM

Some of you folks are long on ad hominum and short on refutation. How do you know your conclusions are valid if you refuse to re-evaluate them?

if truth is anti-semitism, then anti-semitism must be truth.

Timberwolf

09-17-2003, 12:56 PM

Thank you for that, Peach...I can't imagine having a memory such as what you've shared with us.

From the quality of Tex's latest offerings, lying about 2A's evidences/links refuting Tex's opinions, I'd have to say he'd fit right in with the Goldwaters you've described.

nosferatuscoffin

09-17-2003, 01:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Jason said:
Some of you folks are long on ad hominum and short on refutation. How do you know your conclusions are valid if you refuse to re-evaluate them?

if truth is anti-semitism, then anti-semitism must be truth.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's see.

First off, I am not going to give you $5 for everytime you type the word "Jew". Even Bill Gates would have to dip into his savings account for that.

Jews engineered 9/11? I suppose all of the money that was given to hijackers and traced back to Saudi Arabia was really Jewish/Israeli money? I also suppose that Israel was supplying Saddam with dinars so that he could pay $25,000 per head for each PLO suicide bomber that went into Israel to blow Israeli's to bits. I also assume they started the 6 Day War, the 1967 War and financed Hitler with Deutchmarks to embark on The Final Solution. etc etc etc

You talk a lot, but have little to say. Not to mention, you talk about refutation, which is just what a lot of here have done, while you have supplied nothing but your opinion and a quote from Israel Cohen. Seems to me that you need to do more research and back them up with independent research before you paint every Jew in the world as some sort of Satan.

Naturalized-Texan

09-17-2003, 01:49 PM

You are very adept at making stuff up. Or did you get that nonsense from some neo-Nazi web page.

Naturalized-Texan

09-17-2003, 01:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Timberwolf said:
Thank you for that, Peach...I can't imagine having a memory such as what you've shared with us.

From the quality of Tex's latest offerings, lying about 2A's evidences/links refuting Tex's opinions, I'd have to say he'd fit right in with the Goldwaters you've described.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's this? 2A lies and you swear to it? It figures. After all, I've been able to refute yours and his opinions with hard evidence which you reject out of hand because you think that your opinions are are more worthy than facts.

BTW, what 2A claimed was evidence against the Patriot Act had absolutely NOTHING to do with the Patriot Act. It had only to do with asset seizure that occurred before the PA was even thought of.

Estragon

09-17-2003, 02:02 PM

What a hoot. They pull out a bunch of Big Labor web sites and parrot that propaganda like it was Gospel, but refuse to believe the actual data. They present the links to the far left, while acting insulted when they are described as leftists for their leftist positions. Then they accuse you {and maybe me, too, I don't pay much attention to their nonsense anymore} of lying?

Now their latest allies are Nazis. What a twisted ideological path they must follow to find others who will believe their tripe!

Naturalized-Texan

09-17-2003, 02:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Estragon said:
What a hoot. They pull out a bunch of Big Labor web sites and parrot that propaganda like it was Gospel, but refuse to believe the actual data. They present the links to the far left, while acting insulted when they are described as leftists for their leftist positions. Then they accuse you {and maybe me, too, I don't pay much attention to their nonsense anymore} of lying?

Now their latest allies are Nazis. What a twisted ideological path they must follow to find others who will believe their tripe!

[/ QUOTE ]

That would all be hilarious if it weren't so sad.

Jason

09-17-2003, 02:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Naturalized-Texan said:
You are very adept at making stuff up. Or did you get that nonsense from some neo-Nazi web page.

[/ QUOTE ]Reality exists independently of whether or not the it is stated on any web page. Is this your attempt at refuting?

Jason

09-17-2003, 02:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
nosferatuscoffin said:
I also suppose that Israel was supplying Saddam with dinars so that he could pay $25,000 per head for each PLO suicide bomber that went into Israel to blow Israeli's to bits. I also assume they started the 6 Day War, the 1967 War and financed Hitler with Deutchmarks to embark on The Final Solution. etc etc you paint every Jew in the world as some sort of Satan.

[/ QUOTE ]Instead of putting words in my mouth, try going back to my post at the top of page 5 and refute it.
Having the truth on your side, a man of your high caliber should be able to disect my position in short order, have at it.

Peachdiane

09-17-2003, 03:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Naturalized-Texan said:
You are very adept at making stuff up. Or did you get that nonsense from some neo-Nazi web page.

[/ QUOTE ]

I presume your comment is directed at me. I guess you think I made up my dad's bombing too? I assure you it happened and you can read it on the web here (http://bolles.azcentral.com) and here. (http://www.ire.org/history/arizona.html)

Dad had been poking into Arizona's local and state governments and discovered a land fraud ring, influence peddling, and shady deals that appeared to lead to the very top of Arizona's power structure and to Barry Goldwater's doorstep. Mom has his handwirtten notes on Goldwater. I suppose you'd tell her she was making it up too.

Unfortunately Myrta Pulliam was there to make certain that nothing unpleasant was revealed about Goldwater. (Pulliam owned Phoenix Newspapers, Inc.) However, if the purpose of murdering Bolles was to cover a series of crimes, it was a big mistake. An enraged news media descended on Arizona, determined to uncover the facts behind dad's killing. And thus the Goldwater connection is detailed in the book "The Arizona Project" and footnoted.

Thanks TW, I'm just sorry no one cared until he died.

arthur d

09-17-2003, 03:17 PM

"Given the Jewish domination of our media and intelligence sectors, I really see no convincing proof that Arabs engineered the 9-11 attack"

Jews also dominate winning nobel awards, yet you use the results of their work every day, what's so different about dominating media?

paleo

09-17-2003, 03:26 PM

Jason,

If you need to borrow one, I have a whole collection of tin hats.
I've been following conspiracy research since 1984.

(Or you can get them for free at "Use Graemlins" in the reply box. :-|

But seriously, if you want people to seriously consider your ideas
you need a language and logic that is communicable and does not
instantly degenerate into ad hominem name-calling.

For example you write:
"The majority of "mainstream" fag activists are Jews: Larry Kramer, Arnie Kantrowitz, Barrett Brick and Alan Klein."

I don't follow it too closely, but the only name I recognize is
Larry Kramer, and the only reason I recognize it is from the
great historical book "And the Band Played On"
about the early days of AIDS scientific research
with Mr. Kramer as a minor and
dissident voice.

Somehow you have defined for yourself what the "mainstream" is
of 'fag activism' and identified by name some Jewish people.

Wouldn't it change your paradigm if the "mainstream" faggots
were considered like a bunch of wasps: Truman Capote, Gore Vidal,
Herbert Hoover&Clyde Tolson, Richard Chamberlaine, Elton John,
Baby George etcetc??

Where the 'mainstream' is, only an individual can judge, subjectively,
from their own perspective.

So 'ad hominems' is the whole game and, like was said
expect as good as you give.

Now with my wonderful disinfo deflecting redpill tinhat
I of course expect that all Grand American Crimes
will come complete with a patsy.

You always know, my friend noticed, that if the bad guy is
convicted with 20 minutes left in "Law and Order",
that he didn't do it.

If you treat 9/11 as a whodunnit there are so many obvious
jump-to-a-conclusion media-amplified clues pointing to
demented Arabs, that they must be the patsies.

And this process obviously makes one wonder
'who benefits'. And seeing as America has kicked the shit
out of Israel's enemy Arabs, well, you see the picture.

But if you want to communicate it,
without just getting dismissed as a flake,
you have to work logically, with no preconceptions, to examine
the 'case' like Sherlock Holmes would.

First collect the facts. *Then* find the pattern
and see where it points. Connect the dots.

And keep up to date as new *facts* come out.

You should have an antisemitic party or somesuch
celebration since the recently open forensic pathologists report
about flight 77 agreed with the passenger list:
absolutely no Arabs. The FBI speculation was wrong.
Identities were stolen. By way of deception some
arabs were framed.

So it goes..

http://freeconservatives.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tinhat.gif http://freeconservatives.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tinhat.gif http://freeconservatives.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tinhat.gif http://freeconservatives.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tinhat.gif http://freeconservatives.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tinhat.gif http://freeconservatives.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tinhat.gif http://freeconservatives.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tinhat.gif http://freeconservatives.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tinhat.gif http://freeconservatives.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tinhat.gif

--paleo

Jason

09-17-2003, 03:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
arthur d said:
"Given the Jewish domination of our media and intelligence sectors, I really see no convincing proof that Arabs engineered the 9-11 attack"

Jews also dominate winning nobel awards, yet you use the results of their work every day, what's so different about dominating media?

[/ QUOTE ]
Mass media is a weapon of mass destruction and used as such, Nobel awards are not.

It stands to reason that Jews, with their superior IQ, can win Nobel prizes and do many things better than us dumb gentiles. This does not imply that Jews have the best interests of gentiles in mind, it only means they are more capable adversaries.

nosferatuscoffin

09-17-2003, 03:56 PM

Man, what is this? Quote Nos-Out-Of-Context Day? This is twice in a couple of hours today.

What I said:

************************************************
Let's see.

First off, I am not going to give you $5 for everytime you type the word "Jew". Even Bill Gates would have to dip into his savings account for that.

Jews engineered 9/11? I suppose all of the money that was given to hijackers and traced back to Saudi Arabia was really Jewish/Israeli money? I also suppose that Israel was supplying Saddam with dinars so that he could pay $25,000 per head for each PLO suicide bomber that went into Israel to blow Israeli's to bits. I also assume they started the 6 Day War, the 1967 War and financed Hitler with Deutchmarks to embark on The Final Solution. etc etc etc

You talk a lot, but have little to say. Not to mention, you talk about refutation, which is just what a lot of here have done, while you have supplied nothing but your opinion and a quote from Israel Cohen. Seems to me that you need to do more research and back them up with independent research before you paint every Jew in the world as some sort of Satan.
************************************************** ***********************

What you quoted:

[ QUOTE ]
Jason said:
[ QUOTE ]
nosferatuscoffin said:
I also suppose that Israel was supplying Saddam with dinars so that he could pay $25,000 per head for each PLO suicide bomber that went into Israel to blow Israeli's to bits. I also assume they started the 6 Day War, the 1967 War and financed Hitler with Deutchmarks to embark on The Final Solution. etc etc you paint every Jew in the world as some sort of Satan.

[/ QUOTE ]Instead of putting words in my mouth, try going back to my post at the top of page 5 and refute it.
Having the truth on your side, a man of your high caliber should be able to disect my position in short order, have at it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, seeing that you rearranged my words, I see that I cannot take you seriously at all. Just more of the Dowdism we see more and more everyday.

Also, try backing up your 'claims', before you ask for refutation.

bannerman

09-17-2003, 04:01 PM

To be ignorant of one's ignorance
is the malady of ignorance. ~A. Bronson Alcott

dont BE so igggernant

Naturalized-Texan

09-17-2003, 04:29 PM

There's nothing ther that connects anything to Barry Goldwater. Handwritten notes are not proof.

dPrasse

09-17-2003, 04:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Naturalized-Texan said:
You are very adept at making stuff up. Or did you get that nonsense from some neo-Nazi web page.

[/ QUOTE ]
you know smart guy ...you are a conceded ignoramous incapable of independent thought ..
yes ., peach made up the whole thing about her dad being blown up ....

it was actually a well publicized event ..but since you only read your orders from headquarters , you most likely missed the news stories at the time ....

expand your mind ..... man ..... there is a world outside of your lil blinkered life ....

Jason

09-17-2003, 04:44 PM

Nosferatuscoffin,
I condensed your post to quote the statements I thought consisted of putting words in my mouth. I didn't intend to change the meaning of it, only to stick to items pertinent to what we are discussing.

Now you may proceed to refute what I said.
Is there something in particular you want me to elaborate on or support?

Paleo,
After our long discussions on race on another thread I was suprized at your knowledge presented concerning conspiracies in general, since the two are inextricably intertwined. I'd like to discuss this further with you. If you want, send me a PM or refute my statements in the post at the top of page 5.

Alan Klein -- co-founder of ACT UP; co-founder of Queer Nation; National Communications Director and chief spokesperson for the Gay & LesbianAlliance Against Defamation [GLAAD]; Klein also co-founded the campaign STOPDRLAURA.COM.

I'm sure there are many white homo advocates (I don't use the term "gay" because doing so is a sign of approval) but the issue is proportion. Also, who is in a position to promote white homos, if not the Jews? Was it not Jewish Hollywood that promoted all the limp-wristed musicians and actors, is it not they who control the selection process?

NT,
I'm still waiting for you to explain how promoting homosexuality, race-mixing, gun control and feminism are vital to American interests.

Radical-Conservative

09-17-2003, 04:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Naturalized-Texan said:
You are very adept at making stuff up. Or did you get that nonsense from some neo-Nazi web page.

[/ QUOTE ]
You sir are a pompus arrogant ass

Naturalized-Texan

09-17-2003, 04:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Radical-Conservative said:
[ QUOTE ]
Naturalized-Texan said:
You are very adept at making stuff up. Or did you get that nonsense from some neo-Nazi web page.

[/ QUOTE ]
You sir are a pompus arrogant ass

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the compliment. Such ad hominem attacks merely confirm the accuracy of my arguments.

Radical-Conservative

09-17-2003, 04:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Naturalized-Texan said:
[qThanks for the compliment. Such ad hominem attacks merely confirm the accuracy of my arguments.

[/ QUOTE ]
Opps I fogot to add hole after ass

Naturalized-Texan

09-17-2003, 04:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
peach made up the whole thing about her dad being blown up ...

[/ QUOTE ]

I was referring only to the BS about Goldwater. I never questioned anything about her Dad. You need to learn to keep things in context. I defended Goldwater and she replied by attacking Goldwater with a load of BS. I'm sorry that my reply confused you.

Naturalized-Texan

09-17-2003, 04:56 PM

Your compliments are graciously accepted. Thanks.

dPrasse

09-17-2003, 06:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Naturalized-Texan said:
[ QUOTE ]
peach made up the whole thing about her dad being blown up ...

[/ QUOTE ]

I was referring only to the BS about Goldwater. I never questioned anything about her Dad. You need to learn to keep things in context. I defended Goldwater and she replied by attacking Goldwater with a load of BS. I'm sorry that my reply confused you.

[/ QUOTE ]

do you have any idea who her dad was ?
if not , you are still an ignoramous .....

and no , your post did not specify "Goldwater" ...you made a general attack ..maybe you need to clarify your attacks ....

Naturalized-Texan

09-17-2003, 07:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
do you have any idea who her dad was ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. I read the articles she linked to and posted my response stating that there was nothing in the articles about Goldwater.

[ QUOTE ]
and no , your post did not specify "Goldwater"

[/ QUOTE ]

No I didn't specify Goldwater, but given the context, I was sure that my response would not be misunderstood. Apparently it was. I should have been more specific in my response.

Peachdiane

09-17-2003, 07:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Naturalized-Texan said: I defended Goldwater and she replied by attacking Goldwater with a load of BS. I'm sorry that my reply confused you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well sir, there were others (not Jewish) tied into the murder including the Funk family so I'm highly offended you'd lump me with neo-Nazis. You brought up Goldwater's honesty and I pointed out the truth about your sacred cow and you think it's attacking....

And you state there is no proof, to boot! The IRE team did turn up physical documentation that was damaging enough: records revealing Goldwater’s attempts to help a convicted gambler, his endorsement of a land-sale scheme backed by the man the team described as the land-fraud king of the country, and his association with underworld figures going back twenty-five years.

All the AZ Project records are kept here (http://www.system.missouri.edu/whmc/invent/3885.html) here at University of Missouri.

The site is down right now but the FBI files were released here (http://www.apbnews.com/media/gfiles/goldwater/) and the FBI connected Goldwater to Phoenix racketeer Willie Bioff, who died in a car bombing in 1955.

And you bring up handwritten notes we have. It wasn't just the notes at home. Dad kept a file for future stories in his desk at the Capitol Press room. He left a note in the top of the file indicating that Goldwater and Congressman Sam Steiger had written letters used to tout a virtually worthless land development. Dad had the letters which had been written to convince buyers, mostly U.S. servicemen stationed in the Far East, that the land was a good investment. Of course they would listen to Goldwater!

Maricopa County Attorney, Donald Harris made public statements that the murder was a conspiracy with numerous persons involved (not just the Goldwater brothers) but that he was going to conduct a Grand Jury investigation which involved them.

Then suddenly that plan stopped. Bruce Babbit, the AG, entered Harris' office, removed Harris from the case and took all the investigative files and killed the Grand Jury Investigation.

dPrasse is right, get your head out of your blinkered butt and connect the dots. It has nothing to do with being Jewish or not. The roots of organized crime reached deeper than anyone wanted to admit. In AZ, the lowest common denominators; the hookers, bookies, and the like hobnobbed with the highest politicians. I don't know why you think Goldwater would be immune but I couldn't keep quiet and let you call him honest! That is all!

2nd_Amendment

09-17-2003, 07:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Naturalized-Texan said:
[ QUOTE ]
Timberwolf said:
Thank you for that, Peach...I can't imagine having a memory such as what you've shared with us.

From the quality of Tex's latest offerings, lying about 2A's evidences/links refuting Tex's opinions, I'd have to say he'd fit right in with the Goldwaters you've described.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's this? 2A lies and you swear to it? It figures. After all, I've been able to refute yours and his opinions with hard evidence which you reject out of hand because you think that your opinions are are more worthy than facts.

BTW, what 2A claimed was evidence against the Patriot Act had absolutely NOTHING to do with the Patriot Act. It had only to do with asset seizure that occurred before the PA was even thought of.

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Preserved for posterity from page 6...

Powerboss

09-18-2003, 04:51 AM

Well, this thread has taken a large dump.

Can we get things back on track?

Natuarlized Texan.

I've repeatedly asked you a couple of questions. You have yet to answer them.
Why?

Again.
What has Israel done for the US?
Why should we be loyal to them after their treachory to us?

There is nothing antisemitic or nazi like about these two questions.
Please answer them.

As for Israel launching the 9/11 attacks.....I don't think I buy that....I haven't seen any evidence suggesting it.
Although the fact that Operation Suzannah/The Lavon Affair was an Israeli attack, that went bad, on the US designed to be blamed on Egypt, it could be possible.
But, Im not willing to make that leap about 9/11.

I will say it seems very possible, based on stuff I've read, that someone or some intelligence agency in the Israeli govt did have a whiff of 9/11 coming and did not warn the US government.

PeteS_in_CA

09-18-2003, 08:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Pete,
All our problems in the Middle East stem from our past and present support of Israel. Ad hominum (sic) attacks can't change that.

[/ QUOTE ]

An ad hominem attack is an attack on a person, not their views. I only spoke to the views you (Jason) and paleo have been posting. And frankly, your post, quoted above confirms how I represented your views - blame Israel first, only, and always - though I'm sure you didn't appreciate the historic examples I pointed out of the kinds of people your views associate you with. If your views re Jewish people are substantially different from KKK, Nazi, et al folks, post away. But don't try to persuade me that encouraging Arabs to kill or torture Jewish people instead of doing it yourself is a meaningful difference.

Our support for Israel in 1948 didn't cause problems for us in the Arab world. Our support for Israel in 1956 didn't cause problems for us in the Arab world. Our support for Israel in 1967 didn't cause problems for us in the Arab world. They did get upset when we helped frustrate their near-destruction of Israel in 1973, which wonderfully illumines their goals and to what your wish that we would bail on Israel would condemn millions of people.

No, our problems with the Arab world were whenever they thought they had the power to attack us, which first happened in the 1790s or 1800s - remember "... the shores of Tripoli."? So your it's-Israel's-fault theory is doubly anachronistic. The reason the radical Islamists hate us is that our success affronts their religion - how could Allah allow infidels to prosper so far beyond the "faithful"? - and because they want to steal or destroy the things we have.

Jason

09-18-2003, 10:00 AM

Pete,
Not that it makes much difference, categorizing or labeling the messenger is a form of attacking the messenger. Also, your comments "the kinds of people your views associate you with" imply guilt by association.
Why should any group of people be immune from scrutiny because there are so many words in common usage to silence an investigation? Words like nazi and anti-Semitic are used to protect Jews from scrutiny.
If there was a word like anti-Pete in common usage and attached to victim status, backed up by years of movies showing how horrible the anti-Petes are, you could get away with murder. Nobody would want to accuse you because they fear the label.
One can discuss just about any group of people except the Jews, when this subject comes up everyone seems to be filled with emotions.

The creation of Israel in 1948 precipitated incremental changes in the Arab community. The Arabs have watched us send Israel 4 billion dollars a year for decades and given them military support against the Arabs. Even if envy is a factor, they could envy the Japanese or the Swiss, but they have singled us out for the above reasons.
Thruout the last several decades, Jews have used their media to portray the Middle Eastern situation in a warped fashion to advance their cause, while giving favorable coverage to politicians that support Israel and smear to politicians that oppose it. Isn't it fair to also listen to the Arab side? If Arab websites are "not objective" about the situation as so many say, why should we assume that the Jewish media position is objective? Answer: the Jewish perspective is consistent with our long held beliefs. Look at the Arab perspective http://www.abbc.com/islam/english/toread/frnklin.htm

"But don't try to persuade me that encouraging Arabs to kill or torture Jewish people instead of doing it yourself is a meaningful difference."

You are attempting to put words in my