Black education

[dajoga]

[ QUOTE ]
Black education by Walter E. Williams; January 21, 2004

What needs to be done to improve black education? Whether it's civil rights organizations, politicians or the education establishment, you'll get answers that cover the gamut from more money for teachers and smaller class sizes to school desegregation and racial preferences in higher education. Despite these claims, there's no evidence whatsoever that these are absolutely necessary requirements for black academic excellence. Let's look at it.

I don't believe anyone in his right mind would believe that what the "experts" say is necessary to improve black education were available in, say, 1899. But at Dunbar High School, a black public school in Washington, D.C., its students scored higher in citywide tests than any of the city's white schools. In fact, from its founding in 1870 to 1955, most of its graduates went off to college. According to Dr. Thomas Sowell's study "Patterns of Black Excellence" in the Spring 1976 issue of Public Interest, 40-student classes were the norm, Dunbar never received equal financial support and during its first 40 years of existence it didn't even have a lunch room.

[/ QUOTE ]

more here (http://www.townhall.com/columnists/walterwilliams/ww20040121.shtml)

[Longhorn_Platinum]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/serious.gif <font color="blue">Black "schools" are failing for the same reason many other "schools" are failing. Too many of them are run with a blame-the-teacher mentality. Too much pressure is placed on teachers to creäte an appearance of success, even when students fail to meet expectations. Administrators take this unprofessional &amp; lazy approach, because it's easiër to motivate teachers to lie, than it is to motivate students to work. Until students are taught to accept responsibility for their own bad choices, schools will fail.</font>

[dajoga]

Huh? Naw, they fail b/c of lack of funding. Don't cha know anythin about educayshun?
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/jk.gif

[Wyatt_Junker]

And here all the while I just thought that ebonics was gonna solve all the problems noted in this article.

E-40 and the negroes' OG dictionary(the anti-Oxford), replete with appropriate pimp surnames. Wouldn't you want your female teacher called a 'ho' by her lovely Oakland class full of third grade pimps and pimpettes?

Scary thing is, ebonics actually had legs in Oakland, for awhile at least. That's quite frightening when you think about it. And sad.

[Gunnaheave]

I am curious as to what is SCARY about the Oakland schools use of ebonics?

[Wyatt_Junker]

[ QUOTE ]
Gunnaheave said:
I am curious as to what is SCARY about the Oakland schools use of ebonics?

[/ QUOTE ]

Even the Oxford lexicon is slipping into the peer pressure of jive, but nonetheless a word made into print there will endure a lifetime at even its earliest departure from our common coinage. Rap lyrics don't even make it past next week.

Nice try heaver, but I had you pegged as a cloven-hoofed pretender from post one. So far, every one of your posts appears contrarian just to be contrarian, as reason goes unused like the condom your dad gave you for a rainy day, still in its original, hermetically-sealed vacuum packet.

That gutter slang was given legitimacy in the classroom at all, by Oakland administrators more inclined toward chalking up cheap political points than actually educating, and using kids as a tool for their protest by debasing them in the process, testifies of the great height from which we've fallen as a culture. We are talking about the erosion of language itself, embraced by teachers, who, as per their job description, are to hold fast to the elementary standards, english included, as set forth in the public school system criteria. If that isn't alarming to you, then your "curiosity" is nothing more than incredibly, ambitious stupidity. And for that you should be earnestly grateful.

[Gunnaheave]

Well you haven't said anything about ebonics yet, much less the specific proposals of Oakland school system. But your unprovoked malice towards me must feel really good, huh? Let me know when you formulate an opinion on the topic.

[Longhorn_Platinum]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/serious.gif <font color="blue">What is now euphemistically called "ebonics" was called bad grammar when I was in school.</font>

[Gunnaheave]

Well at least you noticed that the subject is really about grammar (as opposed to the common error in thinking this has something to do with promoting slang), but one might ask who called it bad grammar when you were in school? I assume you would include your teachers, your parents, and the collective understanding of your fellow students. Fair enough, but their assumtions differed from those of descriptive linguistics. There were in fact people who did not simply dismiss black english as bad grammar, even when you were in school. The question in the Oakland school district example was whether or not they had a viable strategy for incorporating the concept of a non-standard dialect into their curriculum. They were not proposing the acceptance of "bad grammar." They were proposing an attempt to teach what you would probably call "good grammar" by using exercises designed to call attention to the differences between standard and non-standard dialects. I don't think this would have proven very helpful, but I see no great disaster in making the attempt, and it certainly wouldn't have done anything to bring about the downfall of our language.

[Wyatt_Junker]

[ QUOTE ]
and it certainly wouldn't have done anything to bring about the downfall of our language.


[/ QUOTE ]

This has less to do with grammar than the political implications of mollycoddling the black culture &amp; treating them like the convenient, enfant terrible that they are. Ebonics was nothing more than coloring reality with the false presumption that differences should be exploited to the nth degree and causing social rifts thereby. IOW, multiculturalism gone ga ga. A kind of reattachment to old school segregationism by the very people whose parents fought so hard to overcome it. Ironic, but it can be understood when you look at the incredbile hatred some of these groups have for society in general and 'whitey' in particular.

If you think creating a separate sub-group within society with its own code-words based on racial sensitivities is healing to that society, then you're like a doctor who chooses a guillotine to perfom his surgeries. Racial cults, institutionalizing them by the civic stewards, does little to foster communal brotherhood, especially in language. If the blacks want to continue to keep redefining themselves ad nauseum then fine, let them. But don't let them take the larger civilization hostage with them by fracturing words which act as the glue to any society. It seems you side with the racketeers, the ones who profit off of the exploitation of shame, the Pain Market Inc., who in turn, require the flames of hatred to burn in order to bankroll it.

[Gunnaheave]

…and having your straw man opinted out to you, you simply insist on misrepresenting the issue. I expect it must be easier for you to flog the whipping boy of "multiculturalism," but I don't think it's too much to ask that you address the specific issues in accurate terms. And the proposals stand or fall on their own terms. Talking about mollycoddling and other issues does nothing to show that the specific proposals are in fact inappropriate.

…and it's interesting that you would say that I was siding with the people in question (lovely appeal to emotion there in your characterization, btw). Apparently you missed my statement that I disagreed with the proposals. I reject your own exaggerated rhetoric and deliberate mishcaracterization of the issue. That is all.

[Wyatt_Junker]

Here's some Master P, for purely edification purposes only:

"H to the mother****in' K
A Richmond ass nigga residin' in the Bay
Still slangin' cola out the mother****in' palm trees
TRU to the game and gone off some Dank weed
Shoot a nigga up in the middle of the sunset
And when you ride through the town you better wear your vest
Real East Bay gangsta, the P is not a prankster
Put the nina to your a jaw and watch a nigga gank ya
See it's a turf thing, fools like to gangbang
Russian roullete, put the Glock to your dome man
And if a fool live he have shit in his pants
Just seen the devil, taught you how to dirty dance
Merri D whip the beat up just like some dope
I put the lyrics in the chamber and watch that ass get smoked"


The argument really is just about the material isn't it? Not the politics behind it.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif


Talk about straw men! I suppose if you keep saying the opposite of what is long enough, you think that others will simply line up accordingly to your "arguments" due to some kind of parochial peer pressure??? Straw men? Stooge, your head's full of the stuff horses love to munch on.

But, do respond. Slaughtering you, like I have so far, will provide me with more entertainment than I rightly deserve.

[Gunnaheave]

You are attacking a specific concept, "Ebonics," and specific proposals connected wit that subject. In doing so you have systematically ignored both the meaning of the term and the specific content of the proposals in question. That is indeed a straw man. I would add that your last comments are circular, but itis increasingly apparent that logical standards are not among the educational values you claim to cheirsh and defend. Feel free to declare victory in the imaginary debate you seem to be having with yourself.

[Lager]

Aside from everything else Mrs. Lincoln, what did you think of those lyrics Wyatt posted?

[Longhorn_Platinum]

[ QUOTE ]
Gunnaheave said:
There were in fact people who did not simply dismiss black english as bad grammar, even when you were in school.

[/ QUOTE ]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/serious.gif <font color="blue">Yes, there have always been people who make excuses for their bad grammar, rather than make the attempt to learn to speak correctly.</font>

[DoctorDoom]

Precisely where is being taught in "ebonics" goin' to git the "niggas" other than in de streets of de hood wif de othah homies hitting each othah up fer fitty bucks fer some shit.

You must be a liberal. Only a liberal could be stupid enough (or hateful enough) to want to keep the blacks trapped in their racial pigeonhole by isolating them from the real world. Name one Fortune 500 company that would hire anyone of any color whose language even resembled "ebonics".

May we assume that you also believe that the border-jumpers should be taught in Spanish at taxpayer expense?

[Gunnaheave]

LP: I was talking about professional scholars, not laymen defending their own speech. If you are unaware of the existence of the linguists in question, then you should probably look into it. (Try William Labov, for example.) If you choose to ignore this body of literature, then you are in no position to lecture others about standards.

And Dr. Doom, I have already stated, as have many involved in the public debate on this subject that the point of applying ebonics to the curriculum was NOT to promote the dialect itself, but to teach Standard American English. If you do not believe me, then say so. But to pretend that I am in favor of a position I have expressely denied is deceitful. I realize that all heathen bore you, but if you cannot be bothered to read my posts, don't bother saying I'm wrong.

BTW: A good source on the subject: John McWhorter, Losing the Race: Self-Sabatoge in Black America. The author devotes a full chapter to the subject of Black English and the controversy surrounding the Oakland proposals.

[Lager]

I am not aware of the sources you cite. So if you would paraphrase, how would ebonics help in the teaching of mainstream American English?

[Gunnaheave]

Actually, as stated above, I don't really believe it will. The theory was, however, to approach teaching English to black students as a form of ESL education (English as a Second Language). The school was partly trying to cash in on grants, and they reasoned that since BEV (Black English Vernacular) was a recognized dialect of English, students who speak this dialect might benefit from exercises calling their attention to the difference between their own grammar and that of mainstream English. The idea was to help them to understand the difference between their speech patterns outside of school and those expected within the schools. Classes would then consist of translation exercises. There were a number of professional linguists and educators who questioned the value of extensive translation exercises, and people also questioned the value of applying ESL techniques at the level of mere dialect differences. But there was simply no call for alarm about the whole matter. No-one was suggesting that BEV (or "Ebonics" if you prefer) become the general language of the curriculum.

[Wyatt_Junker]

I see. So it was like the ghetto kids comparing their Rorshacht ink blots with Michelangelo's finished work? And rather than make judgments about the canyon-wide differences between the two, passels of lawyers and trained psychologists were waiting in the wings to assist and moderate the exercise. Let's wear our feelings on our Kareem Abdul Jabbar-sized sleeves.

Ebonics. Reminds me of the scientist who trained Koko the gorilla his abc's and when he finally spelled 'cat' they broke open the champagne and slapped each other on the back.

Grants are just another word for pimpin' our tax dollars to outlay the latest psychological fashions of social engineering. Heating homes by burning wads of 100's would be more energy effecient than spending money on school *educational* grants.

[Lager]

I'm glad to read that you did not agree with the theory. If the idea was to get poor English speaking students to understand the difference between their form of communication and correct usage of the language, that should have been done simply by teachers utilizing the correct form and encouraging it. Of course it shouldn't have been a schools responsibility in the first place to teach basic communication skills. That job must have been neglected by the parents. A child learns to progress from baby talk to mature language obviously by imitating its parent's speech. I'm not inclined to accord these students, as you and some of these "educators" have, the same set of disadvantages as an individual trying to learn and function in an entire new language. This situation also raises the question of what resistance these students met that impeded their acquisition of mainstream English in their homes in the first place. Was it simply incompetence or negligence on the part of their parents or authority figures? Or was it something cultural?

[Wyatt_Junker]

[ QUOTE ]
what resistance these students met that impeded their acquisition of mainstream English in their homes in the first place. Was it simply incompetence or negligence on the part of their parents or authority figures? Or was it something cultural?

[/ QUOTE ]

Personally, I don't care.

Kick them out of school.

And give me the grant money.

Pssst. I'm not joking either.

[Longhorn_Platinum]

[ QUOTE ]
Gunnaheave said:
LP: I was talking about professional scholars, not laymen defending their own speech.

[/ QUOTE ]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/serious.gif <font color="blue">Unprofessional scholars, is more like it. Just more dumbing down of the United States. It doesn't surprise me that a foaming-at-the-mouth liberal such as yourself would condone it.</font>

[Gunnaheave]

Lager: As I've already indicated, there are legitimate questions about the prospects for success. Blaming vthe parents does, however, miss the point that we are talking about a distinct form of English. There are additional studies showing that the dialect difference is an obstacle to development. Whether or not this is the proper approach to resolve the problem is one question. Looking for someone to blame is, however, completely unhelpful.

LP: You know nothing about this material, and you clearly cannot be bothered to address it. Such a knee-jerk dismissal, and you call me the one foaming at the mouth. It's been awhile since I've seen such a clear-cut case of projecting.

[Lager]

Looking for the point of blame is not always unhelpful. When you see where the problem originates you can often see where the solution must begin.

[Longhorn_Platinum]

[ QUOTE ]
Gunnatakealongwalkonashortpier said:
LP: You know nothing about this material, and you clearly cannot be bothered to address it. Such a knee-jerk dismissal, and you call me the one foaming at the mouth. It's been awhile since I've seen such a clear-cut case of projecting.

[/ QUOTE ]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/serious.gif <font color="blue">I know bad grammar when I see it. What more is there to address? There's nothing "knee-jerk" about my dismissal. Why should I compromise with people who rationalize intellectual &amp; academic laziness? And yes, liberals do foam at the mouth.</font>

[DesertFox]

Heave, your interpretation of the Ebonics fiasco in Oakland differs sharply from that of Todd Gitlin. The entire sham was an exercise in trying to elevate "ebony phonics" to the status of standard English.

The ruse, which appears to have completely fooled you, was to pretend Ebonics was a bridge to standard English; the reality behind the ruse was an attempt to delegitimize standard English by making it just another language that kids in multicultural Oakland are routinely exposed to. It wasn't "fair" to grade a kid's paper down for ungrammatical English when that kid's "real" language was Ebonics; use Ebonics "grammar" and there's nothing wrong with the way the kid wrote that sentence.

The political agenda was clear: The White Man is the enemy. Language is part of the oppressive apparatus used by the White Man to keep blacks down, therefore we want our own language: Ebonics.

This background led to every ethnic group in Oakland getting riled because their own cultures weren't given similar solicitude. Why did no pictures of Japanese appear in the textbooks? Why no mentions of obscure tribes of Indians? They all wanted "their" history written by "their" people since no one trusted whites to do it "sensitively." In the end, some grades went without text books because no one would agree to the extraordinary efforts that had already been made by the textbook publishers working with recognized historians.

[DoctorDoom]

[ QUOTE ]
And Dr. Doom, I have already stated, as have many involved in the public debate on this subject that the point of applying ebonics to the curriculum was NOT to promote the dialect itself, but to teach Standard American English.

[/ QUOTE ]
RI-I-IGHT! Teach proper English by using a perverted dialect.

Teaching a language by the translation technique is precisely the wrong way to do it. E.g., trying to learn French by mentally translating the French words into English is an exercise in futility. A language should be learned without the need to do mental glossary lookups. One of the most effective language teachers in a local high school taught German, and the students were immersed in it for the whole class. The students learned German, not German-to-English.

Ergo, teaching standard American English by translating it into "ebonics" will NOT work. The underlying purpose of this idiotic, racist concept is to keep blacks in the ghettoes and beholden to liberals.

[ QUOTE ]
If you do not believe me, then say so. But to pretend that I am in favor of a position I have expressely denied is deceitful.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you don't hold to liberal positions, then you're a rare heathen. However, the fact that you are apparently supporting the idea of teaching in "ebonics" in a country where that lamentable argot is a sure guarantee of going nowhere tells me more than you realize.

[ QUOTE ]
I realize that all heathen bore you, but if you cannot be bothered to read my posts, don't bother saying I'm wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]
Who brought up the religion issue before you did? Are you going to be another one of those "Oh, woe is me, for I am a victim!" atheists?

[Gunnaheave]

Lager, your post wasn't an attempt to deal with the problem by finding a cause that could be dealt with. It effectively placed responsibility for the problem in a group outside the context of the school system, and a refusal to aknowledge the realities of language difference.

LP: When you say that liberals in general foam at the mouth, you are using precisely the sort of for me or agin me rhetoric that marks a true fanatic. And your continual insistence that this is simply about "bad grammar" has been duly noted. You are of course cutting against the dominant position of those who actually study the subject, and you are doing so without making any effort to address their position, but whatever. You can insist on standards all you like, but obviously you are uninterested in meeting basic standards of scholarship yourself. Oh well.

DF: I'm not aware of the work you mentioned, but no, I haven't fallen for anything here. There is a fundamental ambiguity in the position you have just described, namely that there is a big difference between advocating a standard to be used in a classroom and a range of professional contexts, and pretending that standard is objectively superior. Linguists who maintain the dialects are equal are not thereby advocating a general gutting of standards. I have met some in liberal camps who cannot tell the difference, but the responses on this board alone indicate the confusion is widespread among conservatives as well. I know many teachers who maintain that BEV and other non-standard dialects are perfectly fine in their own right, and that does not stop those teachers from demanding their students learn broadcast standard in their own classrooms. The argument you present does little but attack a characature.

Dr. Doom, after 3 separate sttatements to the contrary, you still maintain that I am in favor of teaching ebonics. Your views on ESL techniques would mean a great deal more if your own reading skills improved a bit. Or perhaps it is your integrity that is lacking. In any event, your willful refusal to address my actual position is pathetic. You bore me.

[DesertFox]

Gunna, I'm not attacking a caricature; I'm presenting what happened as Gitlin reported in his book, The Twilight of Common Dreams (I think that was it; I have the book but am not going to dig around to find it to verify).

Nor is your grasp of what's happening (or has already happened) translated into the classroom. I teach high school and know what goes on there. I've yet to meet a teacher who subscribes to the ideas I noted above, who doesn't fudge and just let kids pass because "it isn't fair to hold them to the same standard." The ones who do NOT do that, liberal or not, don't subscribe to that foolishness in the first place. But where I taught in Puerto Rico when this ebonics silliness came out, (some) teachers said it was racist to grade kids whose first language was Spanish to standard-English norms in English class.

The one subscribing to caricatures is you. You innocently buy the Lefty line on this hook, line and sinker.

[Longhorn_Platinum]

[ QUOTE ]
Gunnaheave said:
You are of course cutting against the dominant position of those who actually study the subject, and you are doing so without making any effort to address their position, but whatever.

[/ QUOTE ]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/serious.gif <font color="blue">I'm "cutting against" nitwits who are too lazy to study anything. Yawn.</font>

[ QUOTE ]
You can insist on standards all you like, but obviously you are uninterested in meeting basic standards of scholarship yourself. Oh well.

[/ QUOTE ]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/whatever.gif <font color="blue">Yeah, insisting on standards is one of those things that distinguishes conservatives from liberals. We have standards. You don't. And no, I'm not going to meet the basic "standards" of your nitwits. Why should I lower my standards just to avoid criticism from you?</font>

[Timberwolf]

Soooo then, gunnaheave...what do YOU teach?? Just wondering because Longhorn IS a teacher (and a damned fine one at that) and you've just dismissed him, out of hand.

So, bright boy, what are YOU qualifications to even speak on the subject...other than your own ignorance of life in general?

[Gunnaheave]

DF: Your account of common practice in the clasrooms where you teach is unrelated to the actual proposals involving ebonics. And the argument you relate is indeed an attack on a characature, precisely because it does not address the case for ebonics both as a linguistic pehnomenon and as a set of specific academic proposals. If you have left details out, then perhaps the argument can be improved upon. But as it stands, the argument is far too weak. It is too bad that you have encountered so many teachers willing to lower their standards, but refusal to address the case for ebonics in it's own terms does nothing to advance those standards. There is no intrinsic link between cultural sensitivity and low standards, and any failures in implimentation are just that. If the lefty teachers need to raise their standards, then by all means keep at them about it. But this general theme does NOT address any of the strengths or weakness of the ebonics proposals.

As a point of fact, failure to deal with real differences in the preparation of students is far from maintaining standards. It is in fact, a sure-fire way to ensure that standards will drop.

I have not, btw, bought into any characature here. I have maintained throughout that there are real problems with the ebonics proposals. You and the others simply haven't addressed them.

LP: It is interesting that you assume those who disagree with you do not study. Last I checked that kind of reasoning was called an ad hominem. And I haven't asked you to lower any standards, btw, nor have I suggested that anyone else do so. I would call this a straw man, but logic is clearly another standard you make no effort to live up to. Logic, is btw NOT a concoction of liberals.


Timberwolf: I am not interested in telling you anything about myself, and I couldn't care less what conclusions you draw about me. I don't know whether or not LP is a good teacher, and unless you have professional experience with him, the fact is, neither do you. It is irrelevant in any event. His personal capabilities are no argument for or against ebonics in any of its varieties. I have, btw, not dismissed him out of hand at all. I had high hopes when he joined the discusion, precisely because I saw that he was a teacher and has made insightful comments on education in other threads. Here, however, after he has produced little other than several posts of circular arguments, flippant dismissals of literature with which he is clearly unfamiliar, and a barrage of ad hominems, I have indeed given up on him.

[Lager]

There are many subsets of language in our society. Some are regional - people from the south for example speak differently than folks who live in New England. Members of the military seem to have their own as well. Teen-agers for certain seem to speak a different language to my ears. Musicians, prisoners, construction workers, all seem to foster their own kind of language. And yet, instead of catering to each difference, the different subsets in our country are expected to conform to one established language. It may not be perfect English, that we speak in the mainstream, but it's something we've all put our stamps on and given collective approval to. It is necessary in a functioning society to understand this. The treatment of ebonics as an authentic dialect may have been intended to facilitate the learning of mainstream english, but the primary consequence of the action was that it legitimatized its use. It sent a message to these kids that said, the way you speak is valid, therefore it's up to the school to adjust to you, rather than you conforming to our rules or standards.

[ QUOTE ]
Lager, your post wasn't an attempt to deal with the problem by finding a cause that could be dealt with. It effectively placed responsibility for the problem in a group outside the context of the school system, and a refusal to aknowledge the realities of language difference.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here in this quote, one of the major differences between liberals and conservatives is illustrated. Liberals seem to believe that all solutions to society's problems lie in the realm of government. In this case the school system (Remember, it takes a village). You seem genuinely surprised that I don't believe it is the schools primary job to fix this. Adjust to it? Work with it? yes. Solve it? no.
Liberals don't want to deal with issues of the family structure or issues pertaining to personal responsibility because it treads too close to something they all fear; being considered judgmental.

Elevating ebonics to a legitimate dialect may fit all the parameters in the study of linguistics. But as Wyatt alluded to in an earlier post, the primary reason for doing so is political correctness and an over sensitivity in our celebrate diversity culture. Ebonics is not born from any regional or cultural difference. (unless you consider a desire to not speak the "white mans" language a cultural difference) It is born of poverty and a lack of education, and perhaps even a little bit of intellectual laziness.

Another sub culture evident primarily in inner cities is the street gang culture. They have their own language, their own dress, their own non verbal communication and even their own code of ethics. How long before teachers are communicating in hand signals, and having students answer questions in graffiti on the school walls?

[Longhorn_Platinum]

[ QUOTE ]
Gunnaheave said:
It is interesting that you assume those who disagree with you do not study.

[/ QUOTE ]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/serious.gif <font color="blue">No, actually, I'm assuming that those who rationalize bad grammar don't study. If they can lightly dismiss one field of study, then why not others?</font>

[ QUOTE ]
...logic is clearly another standard you make no effort to live up to.

[/ QUOTE ]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/serious.gif <font color="blue">I've taught geometry for seven years. You shouldn't be lecturing me about logic.</font>

[ QUOTE ]
Logic, is btw NOT a concoction of liberals.

[/ QUOTE ]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon115.gif <font color="blue">Yes, I know.</font>

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know whether or not LP is a good teacher, and unless you have professional experience with him, the fact is, neither do you.

[/ QUOTE ]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/serious.gif <font color="blue">He could be basing his conclusions on things I have said about how much I've sacrificed to maintain high academic standards in a corrupt system. Not too many teachers would endure getting kicked out of a high school for refusing to falsify students's grades, or getting kicked out of a summer school program for refusing to let kids cheat. Most teachers, sad to say, would "play the game", just to keep their pathetic jobs, at the expense of their students's education. Timberwolf might not be aware of my precise teaching methods, but he knows how much I've sacrificed to motivate my students to achieve an honest grade.</font>

[ QUOTE ]
I had high hopes when he joined the discusion, precisely because I saw that he was a teacher and has made insightful comments on education in other threads. Here, however, after he has produced little other than several posts of circular arguments, flippant dismissals of literature with which he is clearly unfamiliar, and a barrage of ad hominems, I have indeed given up on him.

[/ QUOTE ]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/serious.gif <font color="blue">I have done no such thing. I have little patience for liberal "educators" who dumb down the curriculum, rather than hold students accountable for learning, which is what ebonics is really all about.</font>

[Timberwolf]

Something tells me that GoudaCheese wouldn't fair to terribly well in one of your classes, LP. Keep up the good fight.

[Longhorn_Platinum]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon115.gif <font color="blue">That depends on whether (s)he would fight the good fight of integrity, or "play the game" just to survive from day to day.</font>

[Gunnaheave]

Lager: I appreciate the fact that you are the only one here who has conceded the fact that BEV IS a real dialect in its own right, but…

- your comments about it not being due to culture but poverty and intellectual lazyness effectively deny that. If BEV is a dialect, then it IS a result of culture, and lazyness does not explain its existence. It can perhaps explain the failure of any particular student to learn standard English, but then again lazyness can also be used to explain the lazyness of many a teacher to learn the true sources of variation in the classroom.

- Your assumption that I am trying to promote government solutions and avoid dealing with the family is unwarranted. My point is that teachers ought to do whatever is most likely to help their students learn the subject, and blaming family for something as ubitquitous as an actual dialect is simply a dodge. BEV is also no sign of failure in the black family, nor will it go away if support for family structure in black communities improves. Family is in this instance a red herring, and my rejection is based no more than a desire to keep the discussion on topic.

- Your argument about the difference between the linguistics and the practical impact of "ebonics" is interesting, but by the same logic refusal to acknowledge the legitimacy of BEV on some level has also had the unintended effect of intimidating many black students. The proper course is to acknowledge the linguistic reality, and then consider whether or not that has any real implications for classroom methods. The ebonics movement has actually spawned quite a few different proposals, many of which are terrible, some of which might help, and some of which wouldn't hurt to try. If the ebonics jingoists strike you as disgusting and irresponsible, then I can undersatnd that, but I am no less disgusted by those whose opposition to BEV reflects no attempt to deal with the realities of dialectical variation, and whose criticisms quite often amount to thinly disguised racism. There is a lot of misunderstanding on this issue, and I fail to see any benefit to picking one simplistic rationalization over the other.

LP and TW: Either the two of you have no grasp of logic, or you are wilfully ignorinjg it's principles. In either event, I am done trying to reason with you on this subject.

[Longhorn_Platinum]

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Gunnaheave said:
LP &amp; TW: Either the two of you have no grasp of logic, or you are wilfully ignorinjg it's principles. In either event, I am done trying to reason with you on this subject.

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[Bluemoon_Rising]

Get 'im, teach! LOL!

[Timberwolf]

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Longhorn_Platinum said:
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Gunnaheave said:
LP &amp; TW: Either the two of you have no grasp of logic, or you are wilfully ignorinjg it's principles. In either event, I am done trying to reason with you on this subject.

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My sentiments, exactly, Longhorn. Especially since the whining little troll wouldn't recognize reason if it bit him on the nose. Besides,Gunnaleave, to be done reasoning with us would suggest that you actually began reasoning with us at some point. That, dear laddie, is something you have not come close to accomplishing.

[DesertFox]

Heave, contrary to you, what I related above ties directly to the ebonics proposals. You seem to think that ignoring the political background somehow makes ebonics an authentic form of speech, which it is not. It's pidgin at best, but does not even meet the criteria for creole. As you may know, the problem with ebonics is that in sacrificing standard grammar, it garbles or elides information. This was known to its proponents at the time of the ebonics charade, but to them it was more important to make a political point than to do the right thing and get kids to spreak proper English.

Do you speak, or have you ever spoken, any languages besides English? I do, and I learned them in high school (German and Spanish). I learned the most, not from the teachers who let us get away with speaking English in class, but from those who showed no mercy and kept at us in the language we were there to learn. For that reason I graduated from high school nearly fluent in German (since lost) but rather weaker in Spanish, though I had a year more of Spanish.

Perhaps more importantly than speaking a foreign language is this question: Have you ever taught language of any kind? I have, and LonghornPlatinum still does. Using a lingua franca as a "bridge" is a crutch that the learner comes to depend on. It's necessary early, but the sooner it's taken away the better. The two issues are: First, which is more effective? and second, what detracts from learning the language?

Regarding effectiveness: One learns standard English by using standard English. Much of this is rote drill. Much is constantly listening to the language used and pronounced properly (another form of drill). All errors, written or spoken, have to be caught early-on so that they don't get reinforced by repetition.

Regarding detractors from learning a language: Using the crutch of a lingua franca (English in the Spanish classroom, or ebonics in the English classroom) merely encourages the learner to keep trying to slide by using the lingua franca and not paying much attention to the language he's supposed to be learning. We're all human and we all wanna do the easiest thing, and it's easiest to use the lingua franca.

In the case of ebonics, that natural human tendency is/was backed by a political ambience saying that it was racist to expect black ghetto kids to speak standard English, or immigrant Hispanic kids to learn English. The tendency to do the easiest thing morphs into resentment at having to do the right thing -- learn standard English -- at all.

Hence psychology plays a major role in language study and if you give a kid any wiggle room at all, he'll wiggle out of doing the right thing -- learning what he's supposed to learn -- every time. It's the nature of kids. And of adults.

[Bluemoon_Rising]

DesertFox nails it.

Look, Ebonics is an utter waste of time and resources: emersion has always been and always will be the fastest and most effective method of teaching language--any language. The fact that this truism even has to be stated and fought for against the opposition of "educators," for crying out loud, is a sad commentary.

Beyond that, the leftist, racial politics behind the Ebonics agenda is glaringly obvious.

[dajoga]

Doc said, "Name one Fortune 500 company that would hire anyone of any color whose language even resembled "ebonics".

...or any news anchor on TV. Our local station has black, white, and hispanic announcers, but if you couldn't see them, you couldn't tell one from the other. I guess the only careers where you can speak 'ebonics' and make money is pro sports and rap.