Kerry's 4 Whole Months in Vietnam

[Etaoin]

I have just received this Email....I have no link so here it is in its entirety.


Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2004 1:05 PM Subject: KERRY SPENT ONLY 4 MONTHS IN VIETNAM....HOW ABOUT THAT????

Subject: GUEST OPINION - OP/ED GUEST OPINION

My wife had rotator cuff surgery earlier this year, and the recovery is terribly painful. Then, she developed a staph-epi infection, and they had to cut the same scar open and operate on her again. Just thinking about the pain and anxiety of facing that painful surgery a second time in the same wound, makes me cringe.

That experience, however pales in comparison to what I am going through right now, in my heart. The old hurts are surfacing and the feelings of betrayal by fellow citizens, and their leader stirring them up, are breaking my heart again. I am being cut in the same scar. How did we who served in Vietnam suddenly become cold-blooded killers, torturers, and rapists, of the ilk of the Nazi SS or the Taliban?

Most of us were American soldiers who grew up idolizing John Wayne, Roy Rogers, and all the other heroes. That was why I volunteered. But for political expediency, John Kerry has rewritten history, again. After spending only four months in the country of Vietnam, John Kerry testified before Congress in 1971 with these exact words about incidents he supposedly witnessed or heard about from other vets: "They personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam."

I was a green beret officer who volunteered for duty in Vietnam and fought in the thick of it in 1968 and 1969 on a Special Forces A-team on the Ho Chi Minh Trail, just for starters. We were the elite. We saw the most action. Everybody in the world knows that. But we did not just kill people, we built a church, a school, treated illnesses, passed out soap, food, and clothing, and had fun and loving interaction with the indigenous people of Vietnam, just like our boys did in Normandy, Baghdad, Saigon, and everywhere American soldiers ever served. We all gave away our candy bars and rations to kids. Our hearts to oppressed people all over the globe.

My children and grandchildren could read your words, and think those horrendous things about me, Mr. Kerry. You are a bold-faced, unprincipled liar, and a disgrace, and you have dishonored me and all my fellow Vietnam veterans. Sure, there were a couple bad-apples, but I saw none, and I saw it all, and if I did, as an army officer, it was my obligation to stop it, or at the very least report it. Why is there not a single record anywhere of you ever reporting any incidents like this or having the perpetrators arrested? The answer is simple. You are a liar. Your medals and mine are not a free pass for lifetime, Senator Kerry, to bypass character, integrity, and morality. I earn my green beret over and over daily in all aspects of my life.

Eight National Guard green berets, and other National Guard soldiers, have been killed in Iraq and Afghanistan, and you totally dishonored their widows and families by lumping National Guard service in with being a draft-dodger, conscientious objector, and deserter, just so you can try to sabotage the patriotism of our President who proudly served as an Air National Guard jet pilot. I have a son earning his green beret at Fort Bragg right now, and his wife serves honorably in the Air National Guard, just like President Bush did, and I am as proud of her as I am my son. I volunteered for Vietnam and have no problem whatsoever with President Bush being our Commander-In-Chief. In fact, I am proud of him as our leader.

John Kerry, you personally derailed the Vietnam Human Rights Bill, HR2883, in 2001, after it had passed the House by a 411 to 1 vote, and thousands of pro-American Montagnard tribespeople in Vietnam died since then who could have been saved, by you. Earlier, as Chair of the Senate Select Committee on MIA/POW Affairs, you personally quashed the efforts of any and all veterans to report sightings of living POW's, when you held those reins in Congress. You have fought tooth and nail to push for the US to normalize relations with Vietnam for years. Why, Mr. Kerry? Simple, your first cousin C. Stewart Forbes, CEO, of Colliers International, recently signed a contract with Hanoi, worth BILLIONS of dollars for Collier's International to become the exclusive real estate representative for the country of Vietnam.

"Hanoi John," now that it works for you, you beat your chest about your Vietnam service, but to me, you are a phony, opportunistic, hypocrite. You are one of those politicians that is like a fertilizer machine: all that comes out of you is horse manure, and you are spreading it everywhere. Medals do not make a man. Morals do.

Don Bendell Canon City, Colorado

Don Bendell served as an officer in four Special Forces Groups, is a best-selling author with over 1,500,000 books in print, a 1995 inductee into the International Karate Hall of Fame, and owns karate schools in southern Colorado.

[Junky]

My guts hurt me when I hear of things like this about F'n Kerry. My soul crys out for people like Don Bendell and all men and women of our armed forces. The angry in me is so great right now after reading this e-mail about Kerry. I'll keep saying this: The Democratic Party (Liberals) and people like F'n Kerry ARE THE ENEMY within! Years ago, pepole like Kerry would have been run out of the country. Just goes to show how low we have gotten. God, please help the U.S.A.!

[Nutrider99]

Wouldn't it be great to see this hero and the traitor Kerry in a Celebrity Death Match?

[MaximumSam]

If John Kerry in fact saw those things, then he isn't a liar. He never said Don Bendell is personally responsible for these atrocities. Kerry certainly isn't the only person to witness atrocities by American soldiers in Vietnam.

[Wyatt_Junker]

[ QUOTE ]
MaximumSam said:
If John Kerry in fact saw those things, then he isn't a liar. He never said Don Bendell is personally responsible for these atrocities. Kerry certainly isn't the only person to witness atrocities by American soldiers in Vietnam.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then let him clarify it so that we can see if anything got filed or reported by him during the time he served. I want an investigation! I want to see why he was complicit. If he sees criminal activity and fails to report it as such then I want to know since that could influence the way he, as a hypothetical president, reacts to ethical dilemmas in the WH.

[MaximumSam]

Then let him clarify it so that we can see if anything got filed or reported by him during the time he served. I want an investigation! I want to see why he was complicit. If he sees criminal activity and fails to report it as such then I want to know since that could influence the way he, as a hypothetical president, reacts to ethical dilemmas in the WH.

Maybe you can write him a letter.

[DesertFox]

Kerry made all that up from whole cloth, Sam. He knew that in those days, he didn't have to prove a thing. All he had to do was say something happened and nobody could prove different. They would have had to prove a negative, which you know is impossible. He never proved any of his charges and he shirked his official duty to take action on such matters if he did see them. A court-martial is in order.

Kerry was a phony officer, he's a phony politician and he's a phony human being.

[MaximumSam]

Vietnam atrocities revealed in report
Elite unit said to kill hundreds of civilians

TOLEDO, Ohio -- An elite unit of American soldiers mutilated and killed hundreds of unarmed villagers over seven months in 1967 during the Vietnam War, and an Army investigation was closed with no charges filed, The Blade reported yesterday.
ADVERTISEMENT

Soldiers of the Tiger Force unit of the Army's 101st Airborne Division dropped grenades into bunkers where villagers -- including women and children -- hid, and shot farmers without warning, the newspaper reported. Soldiers told The Blade that they severed ears from the dead and strung them on shoelaces to wear around their necks.

The Army's 4 1/2-year investigation, never before made public, was initiated by a soldier outraged at the killings. The probe substantiated 20 war crimes by 18 soldiers and reached the Pentagon and White House before it

From http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2003/10/20/vietnam_atrocities_revealed_in_report_boston_globe/

Obviously, some bad things happened in Vietnam. Kerry certainly could have been telling the truth. However, this is all irrelevant to the main gist of Kerry's reports - he wasn't trying to "out" bad soldiers, he was trying to show we shouldn't have been in Vietnam.

[DesertFox]

What's the connection between atrocities and "we shouldn't be there"? Atrocities are regularly committed right here in America by Americans against Americans. Should we then not be in America?

[MaximumSam]

What's the connection between atrocities and "we shouldn't be there"? Atrocities are regularly committed right here in America by Americans against Americans. Should we then not be in America?


Well, I can't speak for John Kerry, but any time you have lost control of the situation so much that the soldiers want to commit general atrocities, then you have lost control of the war. If you have lost control of the war, then you should probably drop it unless it is essential to keeping your freedom. We did lose control in Vietnam, and Vietnam wasn't essential to keeping our freedom. Hence, we should have dropped it.

[Bluemoon_Rising]

Make jokes all you want, Sam, but this is very serious matter. Very serious!

I confess: I was under the impression that Kerry simply joined in with the “hearsay” crowd during his protest years, which is heinous enough in my book. Now I learn that he claimed to see these so-called atrocities up front and personal like! The man was an officer: he's either a liar of the worst sort, dishonoring the service of men who put their lives on the line for this country or something even worse. I was an NCO, and there is no way in hell that I or any other NCO that I knew would have simply looked the other way in the face of such atrocities, let alone an officer. I would have immediately taken action and arrested somebody or shot him dead on the spot if he failed to put down his arms and surrender himself.

You're okay with this man being in the White House?!

[Warlady]

Didn't Kerry change his testimony later?

[Bluemoon_Rising]

I don't know, but I will certainly be finding out a lot more about Kerry's history in this regard now. The Republicans need to slam him hard on this. Now I sure as hell don't believe he was a real hero.

[Estragon]

[ QUOTE ]
MaximumSam said:
If John Kerry in fact saw those things, then he isn't a liar. He never said Don Bendell is personally responsible for these atrocities. Kerry certainly isn't the only person to witness atrocities by American soldiers in Vietnam.

[/ QUOTE ]

Kerry saw nothing except the civilian deaths his own unit caused, which were, as most civilian casualties are, collateral damage.

Had he witnessed any violations, or even heard credible accounts of violations, he was required as an officer to report them to his superiors.

We could see how many such reports he did file, if he would release his own military records. Why won't he? What is he trying to hide?

[tacitus]

[ QUOTE ]
John Kerry testified before Congress in 1971 with these exact words about incidents he supposedly witnessed or heard about from other vets: "They personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam."

[/ QUOTE ]

If Kerry witnessed what he claims, he was bound by his oath as an officer to report these crimes. Allowing these acts to continue and not using his status as an officer is derelection of duty, and he should be tried as a war criminal for allowing the acts to continue. Keeping quiet is the same as condoning the acts.

He was rotated back after four months because of the 3 Purple Hearts he received. Many availed themselves of the same regulation. It makes no difference how minor or severe the wounds were, regs are regs. However, I know of numerous Marines and Corpsmen that did receive more than 3 PH's and did not ask to be rotated back.

[Warlady]

Kerry only served 4 months? The Democats are claiming he served two tours in Nam. My brother was over there for a year and had reupped. How do you only do 4 months?

[tacitus]

See my post above. 3 Purple Hearts = a trip home - if you want it.

I only did 13 months. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Estragon]

13 months was a standard tour, if I remember right.

Kerry was there and saw no combat, then came back as a riverboat commander.

The 3-PH rule is one reason we need to see Kerry's military records. We know from Kerry himself that he missed a total of 2 days' duty for the wounds that earned him 3 Purple Hearts. Did he request these medals himself? What were the two wounds for which he missed NO duty at all, not even an hour? Were they bullet wounds, or did he scrape himself on the boat and request PHs for it, in order to get the 3 that equalled a ticket out?

Inquiring minds wanna know . . . if Bush released his military records, then why won't Kerry?

[tacitus]

As a Navy Corpsman in `Nam I know of numerous people with 'bunker' wounds that received PH's. While many of those were during rocket and mortar attacks, some were not.

I also would like to see the medical records on those wounds. They may be minor, but we'll never know until the medical records are released. However, I won't hold my breath.

[DesertFox]

Purple hearts in any real war usually lose any meaning. My dad refused them in WWII because, he said, he saw them being given out of a bushel basket while in the field hospital. Anybody who said he should get one, got one. Pop said one guy he knew got the PH for tripping over a tent stake while running for cover from a strafing Zero.

Similarly, anyone on active service during the Vietnam era knows that Army awards were cheap. Even those for bravery -- the famous "V" device (for valor) were cheapened. I'm giving Kerry the benefit of the doubt on his Silver Star (which is a bravery award), but I seriously doubt he earned it on the up-and-up. He isn't of the type of truly brave men.

(Yes, you CAN tell, and your instinct on this is hardly ever wrong.)

[Bluemoon_Rising]

Something smells real bad.

[Warlady]

Warlord was telling me one of his buddies from a previous job got a PH for accidentally shooting himself in the foot while he was high on pot and alcohol. My brother had 3 PH and could have had 4 but he turned it down. My brother was seriously injured a couple of times and stayed in the hospital in Guam. The third time he was injured that he got a PH it killed him.

[tacitus]

I mentioned earlier that when I was stationed at NAS Corpus Christi a LCDR (Medical Service Corps) received a Bronze Star for killing mosquitos. Pissed off a lot of Cropsman that received Silver Stars and Bronze Stars that damn ner were killed saving Marines.

[MaximumSam]

If only Kerry were brave and ate sandwiches with his superiors for a couple weekends in Alabama. That's real bravery.

[DesertFox]

Or, he could stumble around in the dark in the woods, jab a splinter in his hand and cry for a purple heart. That's real bravery.

[Bluemoon_Rising]

The war was effectively over, Sam. Your comment is hardly relevant. Besides, it was your ideological buddies who lost the war for us. Thanks.

[Warlady]

Sam the DemocRATS started this nonsense when they questioned Bush's service. It's petty as hell. John Edwards said today that both of them should be proud of their service to the country and both should be honored. But the DemocRATS have to shit on everything. Now Bush has released his records. It's Kerry's turn.

[DesertFox]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yeahthat.gif

[Naturalized-Texan]

According to a timeline in yesterday's Houston Chronicle, Kerry was discharged 6 months early so that he could run for Congress.

[MaximumSam]

Sam the DemocRATS started this nonsense when they questioned Bush's service. It's petty as hell. John Edwards said today that both of them should be proud of their service to the country and both should be honored. But the DemocRATS have to shit on everything. Now Bush has released his records. It's Kerry's turn.

They "shit" on it because his commanding officer, who was also a Republican, said he wasn't there. There was also a spotty record on when he was there, and there is still a spotty record on when he was there.

Furthermore, no one is questioning whether Kerry showed up.

[DesertFox]

Turnipseed wasn't Bush's commanding officer. Turnipseed commanded the unit Bush was TDY to; Bush's CO continued to be whomever commanded his home unit.

[tacitus]

[ QUOTE ]
MaximumSam said:
If only Kerry were brave and ate sandwiches with his superiors for a couple weekends in Alabama. That's real bravery.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or he could have been a draft dodger like Clintoon and protested the war in Russia.

[Estragon]

[ QUOTE ]
Naturalized-Texan said:
According to a timeline in yesterday's Houston Chronicle, Kerry was discharged 6 months early so that he could run for Congress.

[/ QUOTE ]


Kerry's early discharge relied on an obscure regulation, which entitled those wounded in battle three times to be discharged early if they applied for it. He found it, and applied.

That is another reason we need to review Kerry's military records. His medals were all based on battlefield reports he wrote. Rumors abound that he wrote his own letters of recommendation for at least some of them. Since he admits his three PH citations cost him only two days of total duty, and two of them cost him no time off at all, could he have played the system to get out?

I have no evidence that is the case. But, they had no evidence Bush was AWOL, either. They didn't require evidence to keep firing charges at him. The fact remains that Bush released his records, and Kerry refuses to release his.

What are you hiding, Senator? Don't you want your ballyhooed "Band of Brothers" buddies to read the way you reported the battles? Might they remember things a bit differently? Or is it something else . . .

Stop the cover-up, Senator. Stop the lies. Let the Sunshine in. Oh, let the Sunshine in. The Sunshine, in.

[eric]

I'm sure the Republicans will be looking at Kerry's war record, but I think that they'd be stupid to bring it up in public. They don't want it to be an election issue, because they know that they're weaker in that area.

If they've any sense, they'll be focusing on the present - 9-11, Iraq, the Economy.

[tacitus]

I disagree eric. Kerry brought up the issue this cycle, and Gore brought it up last cycle. The RNC should dredge up Kerry's records and make them public to allow us to determine if he's lying - probably is. The war issue was a non-issue for the `RATS when the draft dodger was running, and since they made it a political issue it needs to be addressed and refuted.

[Warlady]

[ QUOTE ]
MaximumSam said:
Sam the DemocRATS started this nonsense when they questioned Bush's service. It's petty as hell. John Edwards said today that both of them should be proud of their service to the country and both should be honored. But the DemocRATS have to shit on everything. Now Bush has released his records. It's Kerry's turn.

They "shit" on it because his commanding officer, who was also a Republican, said he wasn't there. There was also a spotty record on when he was there, and there is still a spotty record on when he was there.

Furthermore, no one is questioning whether Kerry showed up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong. Turnipseed said he couldn't remember him. That is not the same as saying he wasn't there. Turnipseed also said the reporter misrepresented what he said and has also come out and said he has alzheimers. You Dems are looking like the fools you are. Bush's military records prove it if you would bother to read them. Also have you read Calhoun's report?

[MaximumSam]

I'm happy with people wanting to see Kerry's records. That just means we can see more news shows juxtaposing Kerry in the jungle holding a machine gun with Bush reading magazines in Alabama.

[tacitus]

[ QUOTE ]
MaximumSam said:
I'm happy with people wanting to see Kerry's records. That just means we can see more news shows juxtaposing Kerry in the jungle holding a machine gun with Bush reading magazines in Alabama.

[/ QUOTE ]

If that were the case, those records would have been released and made public.

<h2>What is Kerry hiding???</h2>

[Warlady]

Sam you don't learn how to fly a fighter jet by reading magazines. Keep it up. You'll lose. Since Kerry got out he has done nothing but demonize the Vietnam veterans and vote consistently against the military and intelligence agencies. That's not going to go unpunished.

[MaximumSam]

Sam you don't learn how to fly a fighter jet by reading magazines. Keep it up. You'll lose. Since Kerry got out he has done nothing but demonize the Vietnam veterans and vote consistently against the military and intelligence agencies. That's not going to go unpunished.

Since when did Vietnam become a popular war? I think his protests have helped him, if anything. It shows he actually cared about what was going on, unlike the current commander-in-chief.

[Wyatt_Junker]

[ QUOTE ]
Since when did Vietnam become a popular war?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ever since Hollywood adopted it as their melancholy-of-choice. At first, directors won awards for strictly employing it as a backdrop. The VN card. Initially, the Oscars were all too willing to cudgel the United States with their own perceived failures, which it was not. Later, the VN card was used as fodder, to bankroll lazy screenwriters without anything new to say. Apocalypse Now, the Deer Hunter seemed like such pretty little revelations. Until Ollie Stone began to splice his own scenes, like a prude knitting wool bras for the local convent. IOW, the war became convenient. A scapegoat for the left. If you had a grudge against the U.S., you didn't even need to be creative anymore. Just throw in the standard clichés almost as automatic assumptions. That's the beauty of propaganda. And that's when propaganda has won. When no one questions the validity of what's culturally taken for granted or just assumed by rote. As in Vietnam. Everybody knows by now, using grunt speech(thanks to Hollywood), that America bad , every second, third and fourth culture good. Its called dumbing down the masses. Coming soon to a theater near you.

[Wyatt_Junker]

test

[tacitus]

[ QUOTE ]
It shows he actually cared about what was going on,..

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong Sam. He was bound to report the killings etc he described to his superior officer at the time of the occurance, not testify before a committee in congress. If he witnessed these brutal acts as he said and did nothing he's guilty of the war crime the same as the personnel that committed the war crime. Walking away while the acts are being committed does not absulve him of his responsibility as an officer that swore to uphold the Constitution and the Geneva Convention.

[Estragon]

He would be obligated to report such acts even if he did not witness them, if he became aware of them while still an officer.

If he would stop the cover-up and release the records he is hiding, we could find out quickly if he did.

If Kerry releasing his records will make him look so good and Republicans and Bush look so bad, why doesn't he just do it?

[Naturalized-Texan]

Not only that, but Turnipseed admitted that he couldn't remember that he, Turnipseed, was even there at the time. Turnipseed was another in a long line of unsuspecting people who were victimized by the left-wing media by being intentionally misquoted and quoted out of context.

Sam: Bush was only there on weekends, so there would be no reason that the regulars, including Turnipseed, would even remember Bush because they would rarely be there on weekends.

[Naturalized-Texan]

Turnipseed shouldn't feel all that bad about being quoted out of context by the left-wing media. President Bush was one of the most prominent persons victimized in the same way, to wit:

From President Bush's 2003 State of the Union Address:

[ QUOTE ]
Some have said we must not act until the threat is imminent. Since when have terrorists and tyrants announced their intentions, politely putting us on notice before they strike? If this threat is permitted to fully and suddenly emerge, all actions, all words, and all recriminations would come too late. Trusting in the sanity and restraint of Saddam Hussein is not a strategy, and it is not an option.

[/ QUOTE ]

The leftwing media extracted the 4 words highlighted in bold above out of context and said, in effect, lookie here: Bush said that "the threat is imminent." Because of the left-wing media's intellectual dishonesty, most people whose only source for information is ABCCBSNBCCNNMSNBSTIMENEWSWEEKNYTIMESWASHINGTONPOST LATIMESUSNEWSAP believe that President Bush claimed that the threat from Iraq was imminent when he actually said just the opposite.

[Timberwolf]

I'm left wondering if Kerry wounded himself in order to expedite his trip home.

[Timberwolf]

[ QUOTE ]
Naturalized-Texan said:
Turnipseed shouldn't feel all that bad about being quoted out of context by the left-wing media. President Bush was one of the most prominent persons victimized in the same way, to wit:

From President Bush's 2003 State of the Union Address:

[ QUOTE ]
Some have said we must not act until the threat is imminent. Since when have terrorists and tyrants announced their intentions, politely putting us on notice before they strike? If this threat is permitted to fully and suddenly emerge, all actions, all words, and all recriminations would come too late. Trusting in the sanity and restraint of Saddam Hussein is not a strategy, and it is not an option.

[/ QUOTE ]

The leftwing media extracted the 4 words highlighted in bold above out of context and said, in effect, lookie here: Bush said that "the threat is imminent." Because of the left-wing media's intellectual dishonesty, most people whose only source for information is ABCCBSNBCCNNMSNBSTIMENEWSWEEKNYTIMESWASHINGTONPOST LATIMESUSNEWSAP believe that President Bush claimed that the threat from Iraq was imminent when he actually said just the opposite.

[/ QUOTE ]
Absolutely Tex. Absolutely.

I am beginning to hammer this home here in the "great white north" (albeit, south of that particular border /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif ). I can hardly wait for some dumbass liberal to bring this up within earshot of me.

[tacitus]

Never know!

[MaximumSam]

Tacitus,

He was bound to report the killings etc he described to his superior officer at the time of the occurance, not testify before a committee in congress.

Eh, that is really grasping for straws if you ask me. No one is interested in trying to track down war criminals from Vietnam. Few care that Kerry didn't report them. Most people are pretty bright and understand that Kerry was completely disenfranchised with the war, not the soldiers.

[Wyatt_Junker]

[ QUOTE ]
No one is interested in trying to track down war criminals from Vietnam.

[/ QUOTE ]

So that's how libs feel, eh? One less gook the world has to mourn.

[MaximumSam]

So that's how libs feel, eh? One less gook the world has to mourn.

If you have such a hard on about it, you can pop in Full Metal Jacket and appreciate the satire of Matthew Modine. You can even pretend he's Al Gore.

[DesertFox]

Sam, Vietnam has always been "popular" among the broad mass of Americans, in the sense that people think we were right, the North Vietnamese wrong. You will never learn that, of course, from the lamestream media.

[MaximumSam]

Sam, Vietnam has always been "popular" among the broad mass of Americans, in the sense that people think we were right, the North Vietnamese wrong. You will never learn that, of course, from the lamestream media.

And it has been unpopular because we mishandled the war. Kerry embodies that - he's the guy who went to war thinking it was right and came back knowing it was wrong.

[DesertFox]

No argument that it was mishandled, but that ain't what Kerry protested. He protested American soldiers behaving illegally, though he never said a thing about it when he was doing it himself.

[MaximumSam]

No argument that it was mishandled, but that ain't what Kerry protested. He protested American soldiers behaving illegally, though he never said a thing about it when he was doing it himself.

He wasn't protesting the soldiers, he was protesting the soldiers being where they were and be asked to the do the things they did. He was saying the war was a mistake and the atrocities were a result of putting people in such a place for that mistake. He wasn't trying to report war crimes or out bad soldiers.

[Estragon]

[ QUOTE ]
Timberwolf said:
I'm left wondering if Kerry wounded himself in order to expedite his trip home.

[/ QUOTE ]


We know this much at least: ALL of his medals were based on his own battlefield reports. He definitely requested early end of tour due to the three PHs, which he himself said weren't serious. He didn't miss any duty at all on the wounds that won him two of them, and only two days on the third.

Rassman, the man whose life he saved, wrote the letter of recommendation for Kerry's Silver Star. We don't know who wrote the others.

If Kerry would release his military records, as Bush has, all the questions would be answered. I wonder why he hasn't?

[Warlady]

[ QUOTE ]
MaximumSam said:
Sam, Vietnam has always been "popular" among the broad mass of Americans, in the sense that people think we were right, the North Vietnamese wrong. You will never learn that, of course, from the lamestream media.

And it has been unpopular because we mishandled the war. Kerry embodies that - he's the guy who went to war thinking it was right and came back knowing it was wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

That would be "we" as in the Democrats. Democrats started and lost the Vietnam war. Bush 41 won Gulf War 1. Bush 43 has won 2 wars Afghanistan and Iraq.

[Naturalized-Texan]

[ QUOTE ]
MaximumSam said:
No argument that it was mishandled, but that ain't what Kerry protested. He protested American soldiers behaving illegally, though he never said a thing about it when he was doing it himself.

He wasn't protesting the soldiers, he was protesting the soldiers being where they were and be asked to the do the things they did. He was saying the war was a mistake and the atrocities were a result of putting people in such a place for that mistake. He wasn't trying to report war crimes or out bad soldiers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sam, it was proven beyond any doubt that Kerry lied, lied, and lied some more about non-existent atrocities allegedly committed by American troops in Vietnam. In fact, the troops that he rounded up who claimed that they comitted or witnessed those atrocities were never even in Vietnam. In other words, Kerry smeared a whole generation of American troops with those lies.

[Naturalized-Texan]

Here are links that prove that Kerry lied about those alleged atrocities:

Kerry vs. Vietnam Vets (http://www.nationalreview.com/lowry/lowry200402130943.asp)

The Winter Soldier Investigation and John Kerry (http://www.gopusa.com/opinion/2004/kf_0211.shtml)

[Estragon]

Well, if he would release his military records, we would know if he reported any atrocities or not, and how he got his medals.

I noticed a few gaps in the Kerry Vietnam timeline. By the logic of the Democrats, that proves he was AWOL.

Was he? I don't know, I am not irresponsible enough to make that charge assertively without some evidence. That's why I can't figure out why Kerry won't release his records. They are supposed to be so great . . .

[MaximumSam]

I already posted a link which proved there were atrocoties in Vietnam committed by American soldiers. There is no doubt that some occurred. But Kerry was never attacking the soldiers, he was attacking the government, so it really doesn't matter.

[Estragon]

[ QUOTE ]
war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command....

They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.



[/ QUOTE ]


I don't know who he was "attacking." The phrase, " not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command...." seems an indictment of the soldiers and the entire officer corps, does it not?

He never said the government authorized any of this, or even that Washington knew about the allegations. He is talking about retail war crimes, not geopolitical rhetoric.

Although he has admitted that his own unit killed civilians, including a woman and a baby, apparently that was just a mix-up, not an atrocity. Atrocities, in Kerry's mind, are when somebody else does it.

[MaximumSam]

I don't know who he was "attacking." The phrase, " not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command...." seems an indictment of the soldiers and the entire officer corps, does it not?

It seems that way, and if that was all he said, then you would have a case. However, he was protesting the people running the war, not protesting the people fighting the war. Otherwise he would have named names and asked for new leadership, not say he didn't want another American to die for the mistake of the government.

[Estragon]

He was doing BOTH, Sam. Kerry never accused the government of an atrocity policy, only a mistaken war policy. It was the military itself who he claimed was committing the "atrocities . . . on a daily basis . . . with full awareness of officers at all levels of command...."

That is a direct charge. The fact that he also criticized the government for the whole war doesn't change that.

If he didn't mean it, then why the hell did he say it?

[Naturalized-Texan]

[ QUOTE ]
Estragon said:
He was doing BOTH, Sam. Kerry never accused the government of an atrocity policy, only a mistaken war policy. It was the military itself who he claimed was committing the "atrocities . . . on a daily basis . . . with full awareness of officers at all levels of command...."

That is a direct charge. The fact that he also criticized the government for the whole war doesn't change that.

If he didn't mean it, then why the hell did he say it?



[/ QUOTE ]

When Kerry made those charges, he was telling bald-faced lies. Sure, there were a few atrocities as there are in most military operations, but not in the manner and not in nearly the scope that Kerry falsely claimed. Another of his false claims was that American troops killed 200,000 Vietnamese civilians every year of the war.

BTW, the mishandling of the Vietnam War was by LBJ who sent the troops there and then told them that they weren't permitted to do anything to win the war. Even with LBJ's restrictions, the American and S. Vietnamese troops had the war all but won at the time of the Tet Offensive. The Tet Offensive was a massive defeat for the N. Vietnamese invaders, but was turned into a Communist victory by our left-wing media and pro-Communist demonstrators like BJ Clinton and Hanoi-John Kerry. Moreover, LBJ prohibited our troops from following up that victory.

[Naturalized-Texan]

Here (http://freeconservatives.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=Election04&amp;Number=281227&amp;f part=1&amp;PHPSESSID=) is indisputable proof that Kerry lied about the alleged atrocities.

[Warlady]

[ QUOTE ]
Fed up, Burkett did something that any reporter worth his or her salt could have done: he used the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) to check the actual records of the "image makers" used by reporters to flesh out their stories on homelessness, Agent Orange, suicide, drug abuse, criminality, or alcoholism. What he found was astounding. More often than not, the showcase "veteran" who cried on camera about his dead buddies, about committing or witnessing atrocities, or about some heroic action in combat that led him to the current dead end in his life, was an impostor.

Indeed, Burkett discovered that over the last decade, some 1,700 individuals, including some of the most prominent examples of the Vietnam veteran as dysfunctional loser, had fabricated their war stories. Many had never even been in the service. Others, had been, but had never been in Vietnam.

Stolen Valor made it clear why John Kerry's testimony in 1971 slandered an entire generation of soldiers. Kerry gave credence to the claim that the war was fought primarily by reluctant draftees, predominantly composed of the poor, the young, or racial minorities.

The record shows something different, indicating that 86 percent of those who died during the war were white and 12.5 percent were black, from an age group in which blacks comprised 13.1 percent of the population. Two thirds of those who served in Vietnam were volunteers, and volunteers accounted for 77 percent of combat deaths.

Kerry portrayed the Vietnam veteran as ashamed of his service:


[/ QUOTE ]
This is a damn outrage!!!!!!!!! Kerry testified from a damn book?!?!?! He should be in jail.

[tacitus]

He'll catch a bye from the media, even though he's a lying POS. Naturally the loonie left will trip all over themselves to kiss his butt and defend his lying ass. Look at Sam and the BS he's been spewing defending that POS.

[MaximumSam]

He was doing BOTH, Sam. Kerry never accused the government of an atrocity policy, only a mistaken war policy. It was the military itself who he claimed was committing the "atrocities . . . on a daily basis . . . with full awareness of officers at all levels of command...."

He didn't accuse anybody of anything (besides the government) - he simply repeated what people said they did. But his testimony was not an indictment of American soldiers; his testimony questioned the reasons for going to war, the realities of the war, and the prospects of continuing the war. He said he was speaking on behalf of American soldiers, and American soldiers didn't feel there was any good reason to be at war.

If he didn't mean it, then why the hell did he say it?

He did mean it. You can't just quote half of the sentence. It is clear from the context that he wasn't accusing people of war crimes, but speaking on behalf of American soldiers, those who committed war crimes and those who didn't. It is a mistatement of the facts to say he was accusing soldiers of war crimes.

[DesertFox]

C'mon, Sam. If I say, "Sam cut off ears and heads, raped and pillaged and bayoneted people in the gut; but he should never have been to start with," I'm most certainly accusing Sam of war crimes.

Any statement of those kinds of facts is an allegation of a war crime.

[MaximumSam]

C'mon, Sam. If I say, "Sam cut off ears and heads, raped and pillaged and bayoneted people in the gut; but he should never have been to start with," I'm most certainly accusing Sam of war crimes.

Any statement of those kinds of facts is an allegation of a war crime.

Yes it would, but that isn't what Kerry said. If I said "we had an investigation and DesertFox said he diddled children and kicked kittens," then it is a stretch to say I am accusing you of war crimes. I am simply reporting what you said. That is exactly what Kerry did.

[DesertFox]

No. When he was before Congress, he didn't say that the way you're now saying it. He stated it overtly as fact.

[MaximumSam]

Yes it was - here are his words:

I would like to talk on behalf of all those veterans and say that several months ago in Detroit we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged, and many very highly decorated, veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia. These were not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command.

It is impossible to describe to you exactly what did happen in Detroit—the emotions in the room and the feelings of the men who were reliving their experiences in Vietnam. They relived the absolute horror of what this country, in a sense, made them do.

They told stories that at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.

[Estragon]

Stick to that story. See how many vets vote for Kerry, and how many vote for Bush.

You don't find it odd that Kerry didn't pursue any of the alleged atrocities at all, in the months preceding his Senate testimony, or even after? Why wouldn't he? They would surely bolster his arguments, wouldn't they.

He didn't because he knew they were lies when he heard them. He knew they were lies when he repeated them to Congress. None of the men who gave these accounts ever gave dates or places, for good reason. The events they described never happened. Most of them had never even been to Vietnam. Kerry had, and he knew damned well they were lying.

But stick with your story, I like it.

[Warlady]

[ QUOTE ]
MaximumSam said:
Yes it was - here are his words:

I would like to talk on behalf of all those veterans and say that several months ago in Detroit we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged, and many very highly decorated, veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia. These were not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command.

It is impossible to describe to you exactly what did happen in Detroit—the emotions in the room and the feelings of the men who were reliving their experiences in Vietnam. They relived the absolute horror of what this country, in a sense, made them do.

They told stories that at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.

[/ QUOTE ]

And as we now know, Kerry was quoting from a leftwing anti-Vietnam war book not from his own accounts at all and furthermore he was outed for naming people who weren't even in Vietnam at the time. And some of them weren't even in the military. Why would Kerry do such a thing you ask? Because he wanted to run for office and desperately needed an issue and this one was the most popular issue of that era. Kerry is a phoney and a liar and a traitor. Bwahahahaha Kerry is toast. But please make sure he's the nominee before we come out blazing. I WANT IT TO BE KERRY Source (http://www.nationalreview.com/owens/owens200401270825.asp)

[tacitus]

Yup and I have some anti-Kerry sites lined up.

[Warlady]

tacitus did you sign up at www.vets4bush.com (http://www.vets4bush.com) ?

[tacitus]

[ QUOTE ]
Warlady said:
tacitus did you sign up at www.vets4bush.com (http://www.vets4bush.com) ?

[/ QUOTE ]

No but I will now. Thanks WL! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/patriot.gif

[Warlady]

No thank you!!